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Chaz
02-08-2016, 09:28 AM
Hi,

I bought one of these last week and it was delivered yesterday. It was sold with a faulty Mach 3 PC. Long story short, managed to get it running. I had issues with the spindle, that's now running but needs some tuning.

There is no spindle encoder working, some loose wiring, will sort that at a point.

The board to control this is unknown to me. Ive got some pics, will upload it. Its a parallel port setup. If it works reliably, Ill leave it.

I need to get the tool changer running, I was trying to use M6 codes last night but was told that I need to use T101 etc.

Then its understanding how to deal with the tool offsets although with numerous help vids around, hoping that is not too tedious.

I am looking for the tool holding plates that told tools in the tool changer as well as the bushing that is use to hold boring bars / drills in place, does anyone know where I can get some of these? I could make them but easier to buy to get running.

Not a large cutting area but a nice machine and fairly well converted previously.

Thanks

Chaz
02-08-2016, 09:32 AM
Also. Does anyone know if the chuck (manual scroll, not the pneumatic one) is reversible? I tried to use the outer clamps (reversed) and it wont screw in.

m_c
02-08-2016, 10:03 AM
Have a read of the Mach3 turn manual, as it explains tool offsets pretty well.
The one thing I will say, is they're far easier to handle if you have accurate homing on the X-axis (Z axis is less critical as you can just bump of the end of the stock).

With mach3 you want to be using the Txxyy format, where xx is the tool position, and yy is the tool offset to use. It's meant for turret setups where you swap tools in each position.

Chaz
02-08-2016, 10:06 AM
Have a read of the Mach3 turn manual, as it explains tool offsets pretty well.
The one thing I will say, is they're far easier to handle if you have accurate homing on the X-axis (Z axis is less critical as you can just bump of the end of the stock).

With mach3 you want to be using the Txxyy format, where xx is the tool position, and yy is the tool offset to use. It's meant for turret setups where you swap tools in each position.

Thanks. I did read through the manual today. So fairly confident I understand although Ill play a bit later and see. I dont have many 12mm tools that are suitable but just 2 will prove the principle.

The machine has proximity sensors, so I think reasonable accurate (hoping).

So T101 is tool 1 using offset 1? Is the offset captured in the tool table?

m_c
02-08-2016, 10:11 AM
I always used 4 digits T0101 for clarity, but yes that will command the turret to position 1, and load tool offsets 1 from the tool table. It's the same as using T01, but I always preferred the 4 digit version for consistency.

Chaz
02-08-2016, 10:13 AM
I always used 4 digits T0101 for clarity, but yes that will command the turret to position 1, and load tool offsets 1 from the tool table. It's the same as using T01, but I always preferred the 4 digit version for consistency.

Great, thanks.

Neale
02-08-2016, 02:59 PM
Also. Does anyone know if the chuck (manual scroll, not the pneumatic one) is reversible? I tried to use the outer clamps (reversed) and it wont screw in.
Not absolutely sure without seeing it but usually a 3-jaw (or 4-jaw, although they are much less common) self-centring chuck needs separate inside and outside jaws; 4-jaw independent chucks let you reverse the jaws.

Chaz
02-08-2016, 03:02 PM
Not absolutely sure without seeing it but usually a 3-jaw (or 4-jaw, although they are much less common) self-centring chuck needs separate inside and outside jaws; 4-jaw independent chucks let you reverse the jaws.

Thanks. On other lathes / chucks Ive had, Ive always been able to reverse them. Odd, if it has a 'backwards grip' Id think it likely.

magicniner
02-08-2016, 06:38 PM
Thanks.Odd, if it has a 'backwards grip' Id think it likely.

The smaller diameter range non-reversible jaw set on self centring chucks still have steps on the outside for gripping the inside of cylindrical work, it's more common on smaller chucks that just one reversible set is supplied.

A quick and easy way to check is that the teeth which engage the scroll will have symmetrical inner and outer faces if the jaws are reversible,

- Nick

Chaz
02-08-2016, 08:25 PM
The smaller diameter range non-reversible jaw set on self centring chucks still have steps on the outside for gripping the inside of cylindrical work, it's more common on smaller chucks that just one reversible set is supplied.

A quick and easy way to check is that the teeth which engage the scroll will have symmetrical inner and outer faces if the jaws are reversible,

- Nick

Thanks. I dont think this one is reversible. Pity, I need around 100mm and only have 85 or so.

ATC works. Got an idea how to do offsets but not sure how you 'centre' a drill.

The spindle is being given controls via RS485. It doesnt work on power up. Enable the plugin for the VFD, it works but trips (kicks out reset on software). Then disable the VFD plugin, it works without a problem. That said, it spins the wrong way initially then the correct way. The speed inputs also dont seem to work well. Might need to reset this setup and start again.

Any thoughts?

Chaz
02-08-2016, 08:28 PM
Also, The tool max length I can use is around 68mm long. Any longer and it catches on the Z axis coverplate. The manual indicates that 12mm tools are max size and on centre. Thing is, they are all too long. Is it common to cut them shorter? Even boring bars are typically too long and as they cannot protrude out the back, need to be shortened?

I also need to work out the CW and CCW. For normal turning, the lathe spins 'backwards' as the turret feeds from the top but for drilling you need to spin different direction. How / where would you set this?

magicniner
02-08-2016, 09:43 PM
Is it common to cut them shorter?

Yes, just lop off the spare, the manufacturer would originally have sold you some (very expensive) tools made for the machine but whatever works is good,

- Nick

m_c
02-08-2016, 11:35 PM
ATC works. Got an idea how to do offsets but not sure how you 'centre' a drill.

DTI, jog buttons, then use the tool setup page to set the measured X dimension to zero and update the tool offsets.


The spindle is being given controls via RS485. It doesnt work on power up. Enable the plugin for the VFD, it works but trips (kicks out reset on software). Then disable the VFD plugin, it works without a problem. That said, it spins the wrong way initially then the correct way. The speed inputs also dont seem to work well. Might need to reset this setup and start again.

Any thoughts?
Modbus is the most consistent way to set spindle speed, however it sounds like there may be a bug or two in the scripting. Probably best to post over on the mach forum, as I've never used Modbus directly with Mach.

m_c
02-08-2016, 11:44 PM
Yes, just lop off the spare, the manufacturer would originally have sold you some (very expensive) tools made for the machine but whatever works is good

There's something un-nerving yet satisfying about taking the angle grinder with a cutting disk to new tools. I think the most expensive thing I've chopped so far is a carbide shanked boring bar. Definitely a case of measure twice cut once!

Chaz
03-08-2016, 07:40 AM
Yes, just lop off the spare, the manufacturer would originally have sold you some (very expensive) tools made for the machine but whatever works is good,

- Nick

Great, thanks. I posted on some youtube videos where others are running these machines and they all did the same.

I noted one guy actually runs his machine with standard right hand tools but has them upside down. The manual shows this is possible. Downside is probably not as easy to get coolant onto the cutting area, not sure of any other reason to do this.

Chaz
03-08-2016, 07:43 AM
DTI, jog buttons, then use the tool setup page to set the measured X dimension to zero and update the tool offsets.

Modbus is the most consistent way to set spindle speed, however it sounds like there may be a bug or two in the scripting. Probably best to post over on the mach forum, as I've never used Modbus directly with Mach.

Thanks. Not sure I understand about how to centre the drill but I need to play around more. I understand offsets and how tools will vary. If you have a set size in the chuck (lets say 20mm rod), then you use the edge as the reference. Suppose I could do the drill the same way.

I understand too that Z is set when you face a part, so this is fairly easy. What I'm not sure about yet is when / how do you set your X to Zero (assuming master tool is in the turret)?

Also, there is wiring coming from what I believe to be a spindle pulse generator. Then another set of wires going elsewhere with a part missing in between. I assume this could be some form of 'interface'. Without accurate spindle counts I cannot thread, is this correct? Any other major drawbacks?

Chaz
03-08-2016, 07:46 AM
There's something un-nerving yet satisfying about taking the angle grinder with a cutting disk to new tools. I think the most expensive thing I've chopped so far is a carbide shanked boring bar. Definitely a case of measure twice cut once!

Ye, I agree. Certainly ...

m_c
03-08-2016, 09:43 AM
I noted one guy actually runs his machine with standard right hand tools but has them upside down. The manual shows this is possible. Downside is probably not as easy to get coolant onto the cutting area, not sure of any other reason to do this.

Rear turrets usually run tools upside down, otherwise you lose time having to reverse the spindle every time you want to drill. Getting coolant into the tool is not a problem.

Chaz
03-08-2016, 09:45 AM
Rear turrets usually run tools upside down, otherwise you lose time having to reverse the spindle every time you want to drill. Getting coolant into the tool is not a problem.

Thanks. Where / what determines the direction of spindle rotation per tool?

m_c
03-08-2016, 09:49 AM
Thanks. Not sure I understand about how to centre the drill but I need to play around more. I understand offsets and how tools will vary. If you have a set size in the chuck (lets say 20mm rod), then you use the edge as the reference. Suppose I could do the drill the same way.

I understand too that Z is set when you face a part, so this is fairly easy. What I'm not sure about yet is when / how do you set your X to Zero (assuming master tool is in the turret)?

You have to use a dial gauge to get the drill on centre in the X-axis movement. Stick the dial gauge to the chuck, then spin the chuck/dial gauge around the shank of the drill/holder, and jog the X axis until the drill is on centre. If the drill is at the wrong height, then there's an alignment issue with the turret.

If you have accurate homing, then you don't need a master tool. All the offsets are simply taken from the home position.
The master tool process is only needed if you're homing the machine manually, so you can take a test cut with the master tool, then enter that value to manually set the machine position, then have all subsequent tool offsets set from the master tool.


Also, there is wiring coming from what I believe to be a spindle pulse generator. Then another set of wires going elsewhere with a part missing in between. I assume this could be some form of 'interface'. Without accurate spindle counts I cannot thread, is this correct? Any other major drawbacks?
If the machine is running Mach3 via the parallel port, then to thread you need a single pulse. Originally there would likely of been some form of multiline sensor on the spindle, but it's of no use to the parallel port.

Chaz
03-08-2016, 09:55 AM
You have to use a dial gauge to get the drill on centre in the X-axis movement. Stick the dial gauge to the chuck, then spin the chuck/dial gauge around the shank of the drill/holder, and jog the X axis until the drill is on centre. If the drill is at the wrong height, then there's an alignment issue with the turret.

If you have accurate homing, then you don't need a master tool. All the offsets are simply taken from the home position.
The master tool process is only needed if you're homing the machine manually, so you can take a test cut with the master tool, then enter that value to manually set the machine position, then have all subsequent tool offsets set from the master tool.


If the machine is running Mach3 via the parallel port, then to thread you need a single pulse. Originally there would likely of been some form of multiline sensor on the spindle, but it's of no use to the parallel port.

Thanks. I tried to put on a dial gauge last night but space is an issue. I need a smaller setup.

In terms of home position, I am hoping that with electrical proximity switches, this will be fairly accurate. I will do some tests later.

On the sensor for the spindle, I noted what I recall to be 3 wires coming out from the sensor. Let's assume this is a single pulse (or needs to be converted somehow), is there normally an input into the BOB or similar to read these? If the sensor is damaged, is there a part that can be bought that will give me what I need (like a generic generator that works with most setups)?

Many thanks for your help / info, been very useful.

m_c
03-08-2016, 09:58 AM
Thanks. Where / what determines the direction of spindle rotation per tool?

Where the cutting edge is, and what direction the material has to turn in relation to the cutting edge. The turret on my lathe is rear mounted with the disc machined so 12mm tools have their cutting edge level and facing down when at the spindle (click the pic if you want to see a vid of it changing position a couple times)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3674/13870827504_25b38ce2eb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/n8HBLm)

Chaz
03-08-2016, 09:59 AM
Where the cutting edge is, and what direction the material has to turn in relation to the cutting edge. The turret on my lathe is rear mounted with the disc machined so 12mm tools have their cutting edge level and facing down when at the spindle (click the pic if you want to see a vid of it changing position a couple times)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3674/13870827504_25b38ce2eb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/n8HBLm)

Sorry, my question was unclear.

I understand when I need CW and when CCW. What 'setting' tells the spindle to rotate CW or CCW depending on the tool choice?

m_c
03-08-2016, 10:04 AM
Sorry, my question was unclear.

I understand when I need CW and when CCW. What 'setting' tells the spindle to rotate CW or CCW depending on the tool choice?

There's not a setting for that. You'll need to ensure however you produce your G-code does the spindle direction setting.

You could allocate blocks of tool numbers that rotate certain directions, then use the M6 macro to check and set spindle direction depending on tool number.

Chaz
03-08-2016, 10:11 AM
There's not a setting for that. You'll need to ensure however you produce your G-code does the spindle direction setting.

You could allocate blocks of tool numbers that rotate certain directions, then use the M6 macro to check and set spindle direction depending on tool number.

Great, I was thinking it might be CAM based. Ill check the settings in Fusion 360. That said, if I run everything 'upside down', I can stick to CW which suits drilling ops. Will also save me from buying a new 16mm boring bar as I can use what I have.

Chaz
07-08-2016, 11:50 AM
Struggling with two items.

Spindle, doesnt like the one plugin. It works oddly if I disable the plugin but then not on restart of Mach. Ive tried the Matty Zee plugin, seems to work, the drive 'stops' if the start up speed is too high (I need to slow down the ramp time perhaps), and the motor speeds / what mach3 thinks its doing dont match. I dont have feedback on the motorspeed at the moment.

The main other issue is that Fusion CAD is putting some odd code in which is causing me to hit limits. The consensus is to use the Fanuc turning Post Proccesor. It works, no errors, but I get this:-

I'm less knowledgeable on turning code than milling however what I dont understand is why its moving to X33 in this line - N20 G0 X33. Z1.414. The way my lathe works is X is a negative number at the top and it should be moving to zero. So X-32 will be my current location when homed up top. This is a slant bed lathe, would this be correct? Ive tried to reverse the X direction in the setup on Fusion but gives me the same output.

%
O1001
N10 G98 G18
N11 G21
N12 G50 S6000
N13 G28 U0.


(FACE1)
N14 T1313
N15 G54
N16 M8
N17 G98
N18 G50 S3000
N19 G96 S200 M3
N20 G0 X33. Z1.414
N21 G1 X15.828 F1000.
N22 X13. Z0.
N23 X-1.6
N24 X1.228 Z1.414
N25 G0 X33.


(PROFILE1)
N26 M9
N27 G98
N28 G50 S3000
N29 G96 S200 M3
N30 G0 X33. Z1.345
N31 X14.968
N32 G1 X14.828 F1000.
N33 X12. Z-0.069
N34 Z-6.55
N35 X12.98
N36 X15.808 Z-5.136
N37 G0 Z1.404
N38 X13.828
N39 G1 X11. Z-0.01 F1000.
N40 Z-6.55
N41 X12.
N42 X14.828 Z-5.136
N43 G0 Z1.404
N44 X12.828
N45 G1 X10. Z-0.01 F1000.
N46 Z-4.775
N47 G18 G3 X11. Z-5.798 R1.3
N48 G1 Z-5.8
N49 X13.828 Z-4.386
N50 G0 Z1.404
N51 X11.828
N52 G1 X9. Z-0.01 F1000.
N53 Z-4.535
N54 G3 X10.5 Z-5.034 R1.3
N55 G1 X13.328 Z-3.619
N56 G0 Z1.404
N57 X10.828
N58 G1 X8. Z-0.01 F1000.
N59 Z-4.5
N60 X8.4
N61 G3 X9.5 Z-4.622 R1.3
N62 G1 X12.328 Z-3.208
N63 G0 Z1.404
N64 X9.828
N65 G1 X7. Z-0.01 F1000.
N66 Z-4.5
N67 X8.4
N68 X8.45
N69 X8.5 Z-4.501
N70 X11.328 Z-3.087
N71 G0 Z1.404
N72 X9.279
N73 G1 X6.45 Z-0.01 F1000.
N74 Z-4.5
N75 X7.5
N76 X10.328 Z-3.086
N77 G0 Z1.404
N78 X8.729
N79 G1 X5.901 Z-0.01 F1000.
N80 Z-4.5
N81 X6.95
N82 X9.779 Z-3.086
N83 G0 Z0.614
N84 X7.729
N85 G1 X4.901 Z-0.8 F1000.
N86 Z-5.
N87 X8.4
N88 G3 X10. Z-5.8 R0.8
N89 G1 Z-6.55
N90 X12.828 Z-5.136
N91 X13.838
N92 G0 X33.


N93 G28 U0. W0.
N94 M30
%

Thanks in advance.

Chaz
07-08-2016, 11:54 AM
This is a G0 command, so its machine coordinates? I dont see anything in post processor to tell it not to use these. Not sure actually.

Chaz
07-08-2016, 11:58 AM
Ok, based on this, my X is upside down?

https://one2onecad.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/standardlathecoordinatesystem_zps7e7bd144.jpg
The turret sits on the top. So it should be showing +36, not -36 (relative to the zero line)?

Chaz
07-08-2016, 01:28 PM
Ok. Some progress. Firstly, if something has 'professionally' been converted. Check everything.

X was upside down.
Steps were wrong. Explains why some circles too big and some too small.

Still having a lesser issue. I should end up with a 10mm profile but the G Code is not making that happen. The left over sizes are too large. I suspect its something on the Fusion tooling side, its as if its adding in some additional size somewhere. There is nowhere below where I can get a 10mm and 5mm profile. The closes to zero the X goes is X7.729.

N25 G98
N26 G97 S4000 M3
N27 G0 X17. Z1.347
N28 X12.971
N29 G1 X12.828 F250.
N30 X10. Z-0.067
N31 Z-4.185
N32 G18 G3 X10.981 Z-4.541 R1.794
N33 G1 X13.809 Z-3.127
N34 G0 Z1.404
N35 X11.828
N36 G1 X9. Z-0.01 F250.
N37 Z-4.024
N38 G3 X10.5 Z-4.335 R1.794
N39 G1 X13.328 Z-2.921
N40 G0 Z1.404
N41 X10.828
N42 G1 X8. Z-0.01 F250.
N43 Z-4.
N44 X8.413
N45 G3 X9.5 Z-4.084 R1.794
N46 G1 X12.328 Z-2.67
N47 G0 Z1.404
N48 X10.279
N49 G1 X7.45 Z-0.01 F250.
N50 Z-4.
N51 X8.413
N52 X8.456
N53 X8.5 Z-4.001
N54 X11.328 Z-2.586
N55 G0 Z1.404
N56 X9.729
N57 G1 X6.901 Z-0.01 F250.
N58 Z-4.
N59 X7.95
N60 X10.779 Z-2.586
N61 G0 Z0.62
N62 X7.729
N63 G1 X4.901 Z-0.794 F250.
N64 Z-5.
N65 X8.413
N66 G3 X10. Z-5.794 R0.794
N67 G1 Z-8.544
N68 X12.828 Z-7.13
N69 X14.
N70 G0 X17.

Chaz
07-08-2016, 02:08 PM
OK, sorted I believe. Changed from Radius to Diameter mode. Parts are now basically the right size.

m_c
07-08-2016, 07:06 PM
On a lathe X should always move to positive as the tool moves away from centre.
Even on a lathe with twin turrets, the controller should be smart enough to know what direction is positive depending on what tool/turret is selected, although I think there is a bug in Mach3 when running front and rear turrets.

G0 is just a rapid move.
G53 defines machine coordinates, but it's non-modal I.e. you have to put G53 in front of every coordinate to move to machine coordinates, other wise it will default to the active tool/offset coordinates. You would typically use a G53 for the tool change location move.

m_c
07-08-2016, 07:20 PM
And pick either diameter or radius mode. Don't keep switching between them, as that's when you're far more likely to make a mistake.

Chaz
07-08-2016, 07:21 PM
On a lathe X should always move to positive as the tool moves away from centre.
Even on a lathe with twin turrets, the controller should be smart enough to know what direction is positive depending on what tool/turret is selected, although I think there is a bug in Mach3 when running front and rear turrets.

G0 is just a rapid move.
G53 defines machine coordinates, but it's non-modal I.e. you have to put G53 in front of every coordinate to move to machine coordinates, other wise it will default to the active tool/offset coordinates. You would typically use a G53 for the tool change location move.

Thanks. It's working now. I reversed X.

Chaz
18-08-2016, 09:07 PM
Can anyone help with some G Code in the toolchange Macro please?

Mine doesnt move the turret out the way but needs to. Ideally Id like to move it to the Machine 0 position.

I found the original tool change macro that was used on my machine which contains these movement commands however the movement is not consistent (ie different directions depending on where it is, I'm not sure why).

Code "G01 x-10 F1300"
Code "G0 z-10"

I tried to do G53, cant do this in MachTurn.

I then tried G28 which works however it also tries to 'home' my turret rotation axis, which is not correct.

How do I simply tell the machine 'go home on the X and Z axis (only and ignore A Axis)'?

Thanks

m_c
18-08-2016, 11:05 PM
I've used G53 in turn, but never in a macro.

I always do the tool change position move in G-code, as it gives you more flexibility, and allows you to cut down on wasted travel.

Chaz
19-08-2016, 11:25 AM
I've used G53 in turn, but never in a macro.

I always do the tool change position move in G-code, as it gives you more flexibility, and allows you to cut down on wasted travel.

Thanks. So you edit your G Code to 'manually' move the turret? Problem is, G53 doesnt work in Turn for me. Tells me its not supported.

How else could I tell the machine to go to (machine) home on X and Y only?

m_c
19-08-2016, 11:46 AM
Yes.
A typical mach tool change for me would of been-


G0 G53 X0 Z0
T0101

I say would of been, because I no longer use Mach, but I wrote enough code to know how to get it do what I wanted it to.

G53 should be valid, as it's telling Mach to use Machine Coordinates (i.e. ignore any tool/work offsets). The only thing I can think of, is do you have a good homing routine, with the axis referenced LEDs turning green after homing/referencing?
Something tells me if the machine isn't referenced, then machine coordinates might not work.

Chaz
19-08-2016, 12:13 PM
Yes.
A typical mach tool change for me would of been-


G0 G53 X0 Z0
T0101

I say would of been, because I no longer use Mach, but I wrote enough code to know how to get it do what I wanted it to.

G53 should be valid, as it's telling Mach to use Machine Coordinates (i.e. ignore any tool/work offsets). The only thing I can think of, is do you have a good homing routine, with the axis referenced LEDs turning green after homing/referencing?
Something tells me if the machine isn't referenced, then machine coordinates might not work.

I reference before I move and I ensure that Machine co Ords are green and Zero. I use this as my 'reference' and my tool offsets are based against the X Home position.

Ill take a pic tonight but Mach 3 tells me I cant G53 in Mach Turn. It might not like it in the Macro, Ill do an MDI tonight and see.

Chaz
30-08-2016, 08:44 PM
So inserting G53 X0Z0 works well but I need to copy that into the G Code.

I am using the default Fanuc post processor in Fusion 360, it would be good to be able to edit the post processing somehow. It also adds G28 commands that my Lathe doesnt like.

i2i
31-08-2016, 03:54 AM
Thanks. So you edit your G Code to 'manually' move the turret? Problem is, G53 doesnt work in Turn for me. Tells me its not supported.

How else could I tell the machine to go to (machine) home on X and Y only?

I've used G53 in Turn, but i think you must specify the axis you need to move. eg. G53 G0 X0.00, and a separate line for the z axis

Chaz
31-08-2016, 07:40 AM
I've used G53 in Turn, but i think you must specify the axis you need to move. eg. G53 G0 X0.00, and a separate line for the z axis

Thanks. Ill try that.

i2i
31-08-2016, 11:07 AM
i think the separate line was to move the z after the x. This is in a macro.

Chaz
02-09-2016, 10:54 PM
I've used G53 in Turn, but i think you must specify the axis you need to move. eg. G53 G0 X0.00, and a separate line for the z axis

That's worked, thanks. Need to understand why the post processor is inserting G28 lines. My machine cant seem to do anything with them.

Chaz
12-09-2016, 08:20 PM
Does anyone know what BOB this is? I am looking to see why the flood coolant wont come on. I have no wiring diagram but managed to trace it to the main contactor, there is no 24V wired to switch it on and off. Need to find the relay output and wire it up. I found some generic looking BOBs online but nothing exactly the same. Suppose I could ring out each set of 2 output but prefer the manual so I can see more about the board.

I also need to figure out how to wire up the lube system however as the spindle uses RS485 logic, will have to find another way to do that. Does the lube system run full time when the spindle is on like in my Triac mill?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8003/29347826260_105168cf1d_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8230/29638596505_baf7083254_b.jpg

Chaz
12-09-2016, 08:31 PM
OK, found it.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi-qLzDyIrPAhXC2hoKHZfaDtMQFggiMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.machsupport.com%2Fforum%2Fin dex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D29618.0%3Bat tach%3D40507&usg=AFQjCNH9X0BYQgc-jWmTqNv-W03KMGzhKw&sig2=Tl6kefUyIYUKuCcCJe5PDg&bvm=bv.132479545,d.bGs

It's basically the same one in the link. Yay, at least now I can see some wiring options.

Chaz
20-11-2016, 04:38 PM
Managed to get the lube pump working however there are two wires that go to some sensor / switch on the Vogel unit. Does anyone know what it is? It looks like some form of solenoid, 24V to activate?

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5808/30325896253_b2745365e1_b.jpg

m_c
20-11-2016, 06:59 PM
Looks a like a pressure switch, or possibly sensor.
What's stamped on the side of it?
And is there a small adjusting screw between the terminals? It may of been sealed over with some sealer/paint (if it has a screw, then it's most likely a switch)
.
Probably some form of monitoring that tells the controller that lube is actually being pumped. Where does the wiring go to?
Do you know if it's a one shot type pump (fires single shot every xx minutes), or a continual pressure pump (pumps/maintains pressure constantly)?

Chaz
20-11-2016, 07:11 PM
Looks a like a pressure switch, or possibly sensor.
What's stamped on the side of it?
And is there a small adjusting screw between the terminals? It may of been sealed over with some sealer/paint (if it has a screw, then it's most likely a switch)
.
Probably some form of monitoring that tells the controller that lube is actually being pumped. Where does the wiring go to?
Do you know if it's a one shot type pump (fires single shot every xx minutes), or a continual pressure pump (pumps/maintains pressure constantly)?

The wiring goes nowhere. It ends with a wire with 2 ends and labelled 'lube pump'. Thing is - pump runs with a relay activated. I dont know what this does. I might try and open it to see.

The manual talks about only running the lube pump once the slides have moved 16meters. Since this is now a Mach 3 system, there will be no such logic.

Chaz
20-11-2016, 07:12 PM
Does anyone know what parting tool actually fits into this turret? Most are too long and cannot turn behind the turret when it does a tool change.

m_c
20-11-2016, 07:17 PM
It's definitely a sensor of some kind, as it just connected via bog standard T-piece.
It could be the pump is designed to only run for a set period, after a set pressure has been reached, then switch off. If it's a continual pressure pump, then I suspect it's not meant to run continuously on such a small machine.
.
I'd guess just a pretty standard insert parting tool would work (small tip type, not big flat blade type), with the holder cut shorter if needed.

Chaz
20-11-2016, 07:42 PM
It's definitely a sensor of some kind, as it just connected via bog standard T-piece.
It could be the pump is designed to only run for a set period, after a set pressure has been reached, then switch off. If it's a continual pressure pump, then I suspect it's not meant to run continuously on such a small machine.
.
I'd guess just a pretty standard insert parting tool would work (small tip type, not big flat blade type), with the holder cut shorter if needed.

Thanks. The problem is to tighten into the slot you need to get behind the tool. Ive done some CAD drawings of the setup. Just rendering them quick, not sure if it will show the issue.

I made a bracket but out of alu which bent. Might try one from steel instead. The issue is the Glanze tool I have has a max of 25mm, so not ideal. The blade type would be better.

Chaz
20-11-2016, 07:48 PM
Ive drawn the blade holder in glass to see through it. It can be shortened, as it will hit the rear of the turret (centre).

The issue is how to tighten the 'spacers' that are use to squeeze the 12mm tight against the turret (vertically)?


https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5650/30996032522_935ba59bef_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5541/30318281384_5a75ea0543_b.jpg

Chaz
20-11-2016, 08:14 PM
The question is how to get to the nuts to tighten up.

I could drill the holes at 30 degree and use the drill bit holder 'holes'. A bit risky and need a sine vice for that. Alternately perhaps cut slots to allow me to get to the size 8 spanner to tighten up.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5833/30318758894_e81a0003ff_b.jpg

Chaz
20-11-2016, 08:18 PM
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5580/31140137225_8eb20315da_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5797/30333037303_133e3eb84b_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5777/31140135605_3a376b4c22_b.jpg

m_c
20-11-2016, 08:40 PM
What diameter would you like to part?

Chaz
20-11-2016, 08:46 PM
What diameter would you like to part?

Well, more than 25 if possible. There will be a limit, need to measure the max. With blades this can be adjusted.

m_c
20-11-2016, 09:03 PM
GTN style insert up to 32mm diameter - https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/part-off-tools-blades-gtn-style-canela/xlcfr-1212-j02-part-off-tool-for-ptnt-20-gtn-2-parting-inserts-right-hand-12x12mm-shank.html

WDN style insert up to 26mm diameter - https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/external-grooving-tools-for-wdn-inserts-apt/ter-12-26-wd22-2-external-grooving-tool-multi-directional-12x12mm-shank-2mm-wide-13mm-max-depth.html
(APT do do a 32mm version, but they're showing as out of stock)

I personally use the WDN style, as I couldn't find a reasonably priced 12x12 shank holder for GTN types when I was originally buying holders.

Chaz
21-11-2016, 07:49 AM
GTN style insert up to 32mm diameter - https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/part-off-tools-blades-gtn-style-canela/xlcfr-1212-j02-part-off-tool-for-ptnt-20-gtn-2-parting-inserts-right-hand-12x12mm-shank.html

WDN style insert up to 26mm diameter - https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/external-grooving-tools-for-wdn-inserts-apt/ter-12-26-wd22-2-external-grooving-tool-multi-directional-12x12mm-shank-2mm-wide-13mm-max-depth.html
(APT do do a 32mm version, but they're showing as out of stock)

I personally use the WDN style, as I couldn't find a reasonably priced 12x12 shank holder for GTN types when I was originally buying holders.

Thanks. This one will be better. What I do need to find out from APT is the size of the 'head'. If its too long, then even cutting some of the rear off doesnt help as the head will protrude. This is the issue I have with the Glanze unit that I have.

m_c
21-11-2016, 10:42 AM
If I remember, I'll get some rough measurements for you when I'm in the workshop later, as I've got a couple different ones.

Chaz
21-11-2016, 10:47 AM
If I remember, I'll get some rough measurements for you when I'm in the workshop later, as I've got a couple different ones.

Thanks. Appreciated. Ive emailed APT support, ive used them in the past and they are really good but finding a parting solution for this otherwise excellent little CNC lathe.

cropwell
21-11-2016, 11:19 AM
OK, found it.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi-qLzDyIrPAhXC2hoKHZfaDtMQFggiMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.machsupport.com%2Fforum%2Fin dex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D29618.0%3Bat tach%3D40507&usg=AFQjCNH9X0BYQgc-jWmTqNv-W03KMGzhKw&sig2=Tl6kefUyIYUKuCcCJe5PDg&bvm=bv.132479545,d.bGs

It's basically the same one in the link. Yay, at least now I can see some wiring options.
The easy way is to use one of these relay modules triggered by a spare output A or B (Pulse or Direction). You can get the relays in singles or multiples at least up to 8 on one board.
19675

Chaz
21-11-2016, 11:20 AM
The easy way is to use one of these relay modules triggered by a spare output A or B (Pulse or Direction). You can get the relays in singles or multiples at least up to 8 on one board.
19675

Oh, thanks. Didnt know this was possible. Do you have a link or similar to one of these please?

cropwell
21-11-2016, 12:01 PM
They are all over eBay, just search for 'relay module 5v' and limit to UK if you want it fast.

Here's one example of a supplier - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-2-4-8-16-Channel-5V-Relay-Module-Optocoupler-Power-Supply-Arduino-PIC-/262722739443?var=&hash=item3d2b7edcf3:m:mewvpRdfNf5lyx157fF9xGQ

Cheers,

Rob

Chaz
21-11-2016, 12:23 PM
Awesome thanks

Chaz
21-11-2016, 01:35 PM
That should work well. Does it take much messing about with Mach3 to get this to work?

cropwell
21-11-2016, 01:59 PM
1967619677 I use P16 for coolant (just an air blower really) and P17 to turn the spindle on (Kress, not a three phase one with speed control)

You may like to play with active high / low and whether you connect to NO or NC on the relay as there can be some activity on the pins before Mach3 takes control.

Cheers,

Rob

m_c
21-11-2016, 11:35 PM
Thanks. Appreciated. Ive emailed APT support, ive used them in the past and they are really good but finding a parting solution for this otherwise excellent little CNC lathe.

Realised earlier that I've actually got a GTN style in the lathe just now.
It's this one - https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/part-off-tools-blades-gtn-style-canela/xlcfr-1212-j02-part-off-tool-for-ptnt-20-gtn-2-parting-inserts-right-hand-12x12mm-shank.html
Tip to the back of the head is about 26mm. I only remembered after I'd turned the lathe off, and the parting tool was at a less than ideal angle to accurately measure.

I also measured a 26mm diameter WDN holder, and the tip to back of head is 21.1mm

Chaz
22-11-2016, 09:03 PM
Realised earlier that I've actually got a GTN style in the lathe just now.
It's this one - https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/part-off-tools-blades-gtn-style-canela/xlcfr-1212-j02-part-off-tool-for-ptnt-20-gtn-2-parting-inserts-right-hand-12x12mm-shank.html
Tip to the back of the head is about 26mm. I only remembered after I'd turned the lathe off, and the parting tool was at a less than ideal angle to accurately measure.

I also measured a 26mm diameter WDN holder, and the tip to back of head is 21.1mm

Thanks. Hadnt seen your reply but APT believe it should fit so ive ordered one of these.

Chaz
22-11-2016, 09:04 PM
1967619677 I use P16 for coolant (just an air blower really) and P17 to turn the spindle on (Kress, not a three phase one with speed control)

You may like to play with active high / low and whether you connect to NO or NC on the relay as there can be some activity on the pins before Mach3 takes control.

Cheers,

Rob

Thanks. Appreciated.

Chaz
23-11-2016, 08:49 PM
So I ordered this one - https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/part-off-tools-blades-gtn-style-canela/xlcfr-1212-j02-part-off-tool-for-ptnt-20-gtn-2-parting-inserts-right-hand-12x12mm-shank.html. Its like 2mm too long but I can grind away some of the lip that's in the way. Kudos to APT for the quick delivery as usual.

jamesgates1000
02-12-2016, 03:40 PM
Hi, does your lathe have a Baruffaldi TOE80 turret like on a denford cyclone?

http://www.1stmachinery.com/Resources/FileBrowser/Images/Products/Zooms/1008_6790.JPG

Is so I have a few spare blocks and boring bar sleeves that i made up and also some spare ER25 and ER16 Holders that I bought and modified to suit the 25mm tool holder if you are interested

Chaz
02-12-2016, 03:50 PM
Hi, does your lathe have a Baruffaldi TOE80 turret like on a denford cyclone?

http://www.1stmachinery.com/Resources/FileBrowser/Images/Products/Zooms/1008_6790.JPG

Is so I have a few spare blocks and boring bar sleeves that i made up and also some spare ER25 and ER16 Holders that I bought and modified to suit the 25mm tool holder if you are interested

Nope, similar but not as 'angular' as that. Ill take some pics.

Chaz
22-12-2016, 09:22 AM
Please talk to me about Mach 3 tool ofsets.

Mine work however I am confused about one aspect.

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAY6M4Q7fIE shows that a Master Tool is set at zero (against an arbitary plane, defined by a bar in the chuck) and all others tools are set against this. I understand this principle, its the way I use my mill offsets.

However, what I am not sure about is how to ensure that the machine 'knows' where X is say 0 or 10mm from the centre line.

The way I have done mine is to home my machine and set all tools from this point. My DRO will therefore say '20mm' and give me a 20mm stock if I cut along that plane (both diameter mode).

The problem is that the limit switches do not repeat 100% and whilst its reasonably accurate, I am not 100% getting the same diameters once the machine is rehomed.

I could use some form of a dialguage and reference of this (for X). Thoughts?

The other option is to home the machine once, then never again. Instead of homing it I should use G Code to 'go to home' but not use the limit switch. Assuming the machine is powered down and restarted with the turret in this location, it should repeat however as I use steppers (not servo), this is not perfect. Any replacement of a tool / tool tip or need to rehome means that my 'diameters' are no longer 100%.

I find that then resetting the diameter size (John Saunders does similar) needs you to cut a part manually, then measure it and then do some sums to get the offset correct. I find this tedious and long winded. Is there a better way?

Thanks

m_c
22-12-2016, 10:09 AM
Take test cut with known tool, don't move X after taking cut, measure cut, and enter value into X DRO.

Provided you're not doing anything that affects tool offsets into relation to each other, then you don't have to touch individual tool offsets. All you have to do is establish the actual X axis position.

However, install a decent homing switch on the X axis. On a lathe, it makes life so much easier.

Chaz
22-12-2016, 10:16 AM
Take test cut with known tool, don't move X after taking cut, measure cut, and enter value into X DRO.

Provided you're not doing anything that affects tool offsets into relation to each other, then you don't have to touch individual tool offsets. All you have to do is establish the actual X axis position.

However, install a decent homing switch on the X axis. On a lathe, it makes life so much easier.

Thanks. The pain here is to do a test cut .... I think you use the lower DRO here for the 'new' measurement?

The homing switches look to be 'decent'. They are proximity ones. I'm not sure what the repeatability is with them. Ill do some testing over the weekend. How much 'tolerance' should I expect with homing? Better than 0.01mm?

m_c
22-12-2016, 10:23 AM
What lower DRO?
From memory, you just enter the measured value into the main X axis DRO.

Homing accuracy depends on how accurate your parts/machine are. On my first lathe, I had an opto slot sensor that I couldn't measure any noticeable change with using a 0.01mm graduation DTI.

Chaz
22-12-2016, 10:26 AM
What lower DRO?
From memory, you just enter the measured value into the main X axis DRO.

Homing accuracy depends on how accurate your parts/machine are. On my first lathe, I had an opto slot sensor that I couldn't measure any noticeable change with using a 0.01mm graduation DTI.

Sorry, on one of the videos the guy uses the tooloffset screen. I think he edits the lower DRO to get it to be the same as the measured diameter. In my case I was manually subtracting (or adding) to work out the required difference to make the reading correct. In the tooloffset screen I dont think you can edit the top DRO. Perhaps I'm just doing it in the wrong place.

Ill use a dial gauge on the weekend and test repeatability.

m_c
22-12-2016, 10:29 AM
Don't bother with the tool offset screen. Just take a test cut using one of the main screens, then measure and enter the value into the main DRO.

Chaz
22-12-2016, 10:33 AM
Don't bother with the tool offset screen. Just take a test cut using one of the main screens, then measure and enter the value into the main DRO.

Thanks, that removes one of the pain in the ass with sorting this problems as I have to go from screen to screen continuously.

So if my switch is not repeatable, ill set the offsets from the master tool (and use the cut / measure / input method). If it is, ill set it up from the switch.

Chaz
31-12-2016, 12:48 PM
Ive ended up setting offsets the painful way from the homing switch, seems to work better for me. Will test again today and see if its still working.

Chaz
11-03-2017, 01:12 PM
They are all over eBay, just search for 'relay module 5v' and limit to UK if you want it fast.

Here's one example of a supplier - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-2-4-8-16-Channel-5V-Relay-Module-Optocoupler-Power-Supply-Arduino-PIC-/262722739443?var=&hash=item3d2b7edcf3:m:mewvpRdfNf5lyx157fF9xGQ

Cheers,

Rob

So I bought one of these and finally tried to install it today. Nothing works. Ive tried every option. The state of P17 doesnt change, even if I press E Stop whatever. It could be that the board is damaged.

Are you able to indicate what the wiring should look like from a board like this please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Axis-Cnc-Breakout-Board-For-Router-Mill-Lathe-Engraving-Machine-USB-LPT-Cable-/262839804758?hash=item3d32792356

http://www.gbeshop.com/InfoBase/SAVEBASE/PKG/004393/Image/New_5axis_breakout_board_interfaces_fw_r2_c1.jpg

cropwell
11-03-2017, 02:59 PM
Sorry Chaz, but I can't get my CNC fired up at the moment. First, you need the relay jumper disconnected and then in Mach3 you need to command the P17 with an output set to pin17 and that output linked to M8 on the Spindle Control screen, so then M8 in your code sets coolant on and M9 turns it off.

You can use any spare axis pulse or direction pin to do the same thing btw, if you want to use the onboard relay for spindle control, which is hard wired into P17 when the jumper is on.

PM me your Mach3 configuration file (you will need to copy it and change the extension to .txt) and |I will have a look at it. I can't remember exactly where we got on this.

Cheers,

Rob

In the meantime I will look at my CNC PC to see why it is not firing up properly !!!! - Have looked at it system SSD is dead, will need to rebuild Operating system and reload software --- S H I T -- !!!!

Chaz
11-03-2017, 03:39 PM
Sorry Chaz, but I can't get my CNC fired up at the moment. First, you need the relay jumper disconnected and then in Mach3 you need to command the P17 with an output set to pin17 and that output linked to M8 on the Spindle Control screen, so then M8 in your code sets coolant on and M9 turns it off.

You can use any spare axis pulse or direction pin to do the same thing btw, if you want to use the onboard relay for spindle control, which is hard wired into P17 when the jumper is on.

PM me your Mach3 configuration file (you will need to copy it and change the extension to .txt) and |I will have a look at it. I can't remember exactly where we got on this.

Cheers,

Rob

In the meantime I will look at my CNC PC to see why it is not firing up properly !!!! - Have looked at it system SSD is dead, will need to rebuild Operating system and reload software --- S H I T -- !!!!

Thanks. Ill get the config later (its in the garage).

I tried with the relay setting on and off. I did damage the board however previously when I miswired the on board relay. Cheap enough to replace. I then made Output 3 try both pin 16 and 17 but nothing changes the state of them. Im using output 3 for coolant and triggering it doesnt change anything. Perhaps I need another board first. Id love to go CS Labs as its something I understand but too pricy for a machine ill likely be selling.

Clive S
11-03-2017, 03:41 PM
Nothing works. Ive tried every option.Have you put power on the 12-24v power supply as well as the pc 5v.

As I think that the inputs are powered from the 12-24v supply (don't quote me though)

cropwell
11-03-2017, 05:31 PM
I am sure you are right Clive, the 5v from the PC is only to power the input optos. I have the board in front of me and the 12v track is on the top face and disappears under components, so I can't trace it through.

(Chaz) The board you show as an example on eBay is overpriced, you can get them from China for less than a fiver and not much more than that from a UK supplier.

Rob

Clive S
11-03-2017, 06:10 PM
the PC is only to power the input optosRob do you mean the outputs just for clarity

Chaz
11-03-2017, 06:53 PM
Have you put power on the 12-24v power supply as well as the pc 5v.

As I think that the inputs are powered from the 12-24v supply (don't quote me though)

Ah, no. There is a Ground, VCC and two inputs. What voltage goes into the trigger (5V?) and 24V into VCC?

cropwell
11-03-2017, 07:20 PM
Rob do you mean the outputs just for clarity

Probably, but I am sure they do more than just provide clarity :nevreness:

I am up to my neck in computer problems at the moment. The computer says press any key to boot from CD.... and I can't find the 'ANY' key - none of the ones on the wireless USB keyboard work and I haven't got any other sort.

cropwell
11-03-2017, 07:24 PM
Ah, no. There is a Ground, VCC and two inputs. What voltage goes into the trigger (5V?) and 24V into VCC?

Are you talking about the relay board ? Because if you look at the back of the BoB it is clearly printed on. The relay board takes GND, 5v on Vcc and the two inputs are 5v max.

Chaz
11-03-2017, 08:38 PM
Are you talking about the relay board ? Because if you look at the back of the BoB it is clearly printed on. The relay board takes GND, 5v on Vcc and the two inputs are 5v max.

So to be sure.

Relay board has 4 connections.

One is Ground, once is VCC and two are triggered inputs (5V)? The VCC is 24V? If that is the case, I did not connect 24V.

cropwell
11-03-2017, 09:16 PM
5 V +on Vcc on the relay board or you will burn it out !

Clive S
11-03-2017, 10:20 PM
Chaz wrong time of night for sense:distracted: But I think you need to supply the bob with two power supplies one 5V and the other 12-24V before you will get any sense from it. Those bob's are 3,20 from ebay (China) inc PoP

Chaz
12-03-2017, 11:42 AM
21063

So, is this correct? If so, assuming the PC setup is right, my BoB is broken. P17 never changes state / voltage.

cropwell
12-03-2017, 12:11 PM
If you have set up the BoB OK with 12-24v GND and 5v from the PC using the USB cable AND the jumper on the BoB is off, AND ports and pins are set properly in Mach3, - then if your BoB is working it should work.

At the moment I am very pissed off that I have to rebuild my system from square 1 as after the hard drive failure, I have to reload all software. Fortunately I backed up all the work files but the Mach3 .xml has been lost and I thought I had a backup, but can't find it, so it looks like I have to go back to basics. I was up till 4:30 this morning trying to sort it, so I think today will be a 'FCUK It' day.

Chaz
12-03-2017, 01:24 PM
If you have set up the BoB OK with 12-24v GND and 5v from the PC using the USB cable AND the jumper on the BoB is off, AND ports and pins are set properly in Mach3, - then if your BoB is working it should work.

At the moment I am very pissed off that I have to rebuild my system from square 1 as after the hard drive failure, I have to reload all software. Fortunately I backed up all the work files but the Mach3 .xml has been lost and I thought I had a backup, but can't find it, so it looks like I have to go back to basics. I was up till 4:30 this morning trying to sort it, so I think today will be a 'FCUK It' day.

Thanks. Sorry to hear about your issues. I try and backup mach3 often for the same reasons.

Chaz
12-03-2017, 01:25 PM
Pretty sure the BOB is screwed. I tried to use its relay output and did something wrong. So a new one should be ordered I believe.

Chaz
25-03-2017, 04:25 PM
Fcking electronics.

New BOB, all works. Awesome.

I then start to permanently solder the wires. I solder the 0V Gnd wire, sparks. Seems like my 24V PSU (x 2) have taken offence to me soldering whilst they were powered and both are now faulty. Really surprised. On my machine, they simply dont power. On the bench, it trips a 16A breaker once the PSU powers. Odd.

Ive got two of these units. 24V 5A each it seems.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VERO-MONOVOLT-PK120-116-010084D-19-POWER-SUPPLY-TESTED-WORKING-/281969319232

Ill contact the manufacturer to see if they can look at them or repair.

One PSU powers two of these - http://jmcmotion.en.made-in-china.com/product/kvdmIUcyAWVt/China-3-Phase-Step-Drive-24V-DC-Motor-Controller-3m860.html - suppose could go higher voltage?

The other powers the BOB and a very small stepper driver for the turret.

Argh.

m_c
25-03-2017, 07:39 PM
Soldering the 0V/GND should not of had that effect.
Is your soldering iron grounded properly?

Clive S
25-03-2017, 08:02 PM
Chaz most soldering irons are earthed so if you touch any live point you are basically shorting it to earth.. also those PS seem very expensive for a 24V 5A supply even a RS one like this http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/din-rail-panel-mount-power-supplies/1238020/ is cheaper.

Chaz
25-03-2017, 08:12 PM
Soldering the 0V/GND should not of had that effect.
Is your soldering iron grounded properly?

Yep, perhaps that's the issue.

Chaz
25-03-2017, 08:13 PM
Chaz most soldering irons are earthed so if you touch any live point you are basically shorting it to earth.. also those PS seem very expensive for a 24V 5A supply even a RS one like this http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/din-rail-panel-mount-power-supplies/1238020/ is cheaper.

Thanks. Ive got similar on my other machines. I always believed that the iron is 'floating'.

Clive S
25-03-2017, 10:33 PM
Thanks. Ive got similar on my other machines. I always believed that the iron is 'floating'.

Well I shouldn't really admit it but in the good old days of valves tv's the first thing we did was cut the earth off the iron:dread: one of the reasons was that one side of the mains was connected directly to the chassis and you generally worked on them switched on. I am in no way telling anybody to cut the earth off anything.

Chaz
25-03-2017, 10:54 PM
Well I shouldn't really admit it but in the good old days of valves tv's the first thing we did was cut the earth off the iron:dread: one of the reasons was that one side of the mains was connected directly to the chassis and you generally worked on them switched on. I am in no way telling anybody to cut the earth off anything.

Ye, we did that too when I was an apprentice.

Chaz
27-03-2017, 01:41 PM
So I emailed the local company for these PSUs. Keep in mind I didnt buy the units from them so I was not sure if Id even get a response.

Received this:-

The solder tip of your iron will be earthed and this is a different potential to the Ov rail which is not really “0v” but simply a DC return for the +DC rail and is therefore floating with respect to Earth. I am not sure of the effect on the PSU by doing what you have done – usually a thermal trip / breaker will have activated but if it isn’t anything obvious then all you can do is speak to the manufacturer which is not us, we simply distribute. The manufacturer is a company called EPLAX in Germany and you need to call them

So I have a few options. Let's assume they are faulty. I need roughly 10A if I do a like for like replacement although I am sure that the smaller driver and board take less than 2A. I could also increase the Voltage on the two main axis steppers. Would higher voltage be better or just remain with 24V all round?

Thanks

m_c
27-03-2017, 11:55 PM
Without reading back through the thread to see what you have or have not changed, can the stepper drivers handle the extra voltage?

I'd suspect they've just used a generic power supply, rather than have two different ones, so you will most likely get away with a smaller one if one only powers a single motor.

Chaz
28-03-2017, 07:46 AM
Without reading back through the thread to see what you have or have not changed, can the stepper drivers handle the extra voltage?

I'd suspect they've just used a generic power supply, rather than have two different ones, so you will most likely get away with a smaller one if one only powers a single motor.

I dont have the motor spec and I am reluctant to start removing bits. Probably the easiest to do is simply put back a 24V 10A supply which will cover all my needs. I have a 24V 5A already which is being used for another machine - ill move this across, make sure it all works and then buy a larger din rail unit and rewire where needed.

Chaz
09-04-2017, 06:00 PM
Ok, using a 5A PSU and a new BOB, we are back to where we were. However, I cannot get the relays to switch.

Click on coolant, the 5V relay on the BOB clicks, light comes on, IN1 (Input 1) on the Relay board switches. The problem is that the relay state on the relay board doesnt change. If I remove the jumper (what does it do?) the relay makes / breaks but that is manual. If I try and bridge to the other side the BOB boards dim and its clearly not happy.

Any ideas? My 5V light on the PSU is also not active however I can measure 5V (PC voltage) across the pins. Is my wiring correct?

Chaz
09-04-2017, 06:30 PM
OK, its working. Looks like the relay board must have been damaged. Had bought a 2nd one as they were cheap. Now works :-)

Wow, what a mission.

Chaz
01-05-2017, 01:30 PM
Ok, its working however at startup the boards 'click'. It did not cause a problem at first but now the coolant pump starts / stops as the relays change state.

Any idea what can be causing this? I tried a different 5V supply. I believe the 24V supply can offer enough current. I cant see any voltage drop as such.

Could it be Mach 3 initalising as the PC boots up? Not sure if I can create some form of 'dont power anything till everything is ready' steady state. The PC currently is fed from the same power as the CNC. Perhaps I should power the PC on its own and see if this still happens during the machine start up.

Once everything has been booted and settled, the clicking goes away.

m_c
01-05-2017, 02:19 PM
Are you using a charge pump?
If not, it sounds like the parallel port doing random things as things boot up.
If you've not got a charge pump, a quick fix would be an extra switch to keep the lathe powered of until the PC has booted. It's not ideal, but it would work, provided you remember to turn things on in the correct order.

Chaz
01-05-2017, 02:58 PM
Are you using a charge pump?
If not, it sounds like the parallel port doing random things as things boot up.
If you've not got a charge pump, a quick fix would be an extra switch to keep the lathe powered of until the PC has booted. It's not ideal, but it would work, provided you remember to turn things on in the correct order.

Not sure what a charge pump is. It has a normal 24V contractor that fires up the coolant pump (single phase probably around 0.3KW). I may disconnect the main motor drivers and see if it still does it. Something seems to want to initialise. It could be the PC too, its not a good machine as such but we are fairly limited with the older interfaces (unless there are trust worthy add on cards for newer machines).

Chaz
01-05-2017, 02:59 PM
Are you using a charge pump?
If not, it sounds like the parallel port doing random things as things boot up.
If you've not got a charge pump, a quick fix would be an extra switch to keep the lathe powered of until the PC has booted. It's not ideal, but it would work, provided you remember to turn things on in the correct order.

Actually, id go CS Labs for the simplicity however not value for money at present. I could look at something like one of the smoothieboards or something that is better than the BOB but less expensive than CS Labs.

m_c
01-05-2017, 03:54 PM
A charge pump is a device that needs a fixed frequency input, at which point it then activates, and is typically used on BOBs to ensure no outputs are activated until the charge pump is active.

The problem with a parallel port, is the pins may switch on/off during power up/initialisation. By using a charge pump, it means the parallel port driver has to be full control, and generating a fixed frequency output, before any outputs get activated. It also provides some safety in the event the computer crashes, as it should cause the charge pump to fail and deactivate outputs.

If it's just the coolant switching on, I wouldn't worry too much. The big concern is if the spindle happens to activate, or anything else that could cause physical damage.

cropwell
01-05-2017, 05:27 PM
I would only add that my experience of a charge pump on a Chinese BoB with no worthwhile knowledgeable support coming from the supplier (in Devon), I ended up disabling it and have a switch for my spindle (so I can change a tool without losing another finger end) and a switch for the air blower.

That was when I first started using Mach3, I probably could figure out how to enable it properly now, but it isn't on the BoBs I use now and I have got used to being without it

Cheers,

Rob

Chaz
27-06-2017, 10:08 PM
My niggles continue. Latest one is really odd. After replacing my blown PSU, Ive had an el cheapo die and 2nd one seems to be holding up.

Z (stepper motor) moves when driven at slow feedrate. At higher feedrates it doesnt have torque and whilst it makes a noise, it doesnt move. I swapped the connectors, problem moved, so thought it was the connectors / BOB. However later when I tested it was inconsistent.

How do I test if I am getting the correct step / dir to each drive? Taking the steppers off is a pain, finding it difficult to figure out what else it could be. Wiring looks OK.

I did notice that a CSS value moves when I move one of the axis, turns out this is constant speed so should be OK. Anything else I Can look at? I dont like / trust these cheap controllers however I dont want to spend on the machine as Ill sell it at some point and get something larger for my needs (or just build one).

Chaz
28-06-2017, 09:12 PM
Ok fixed.

I suspected the movement distance didn't look right. Turns out when I moved the 24V PSU and I had reconnected the drives, I had bumped a dipswitch on the drive which changed the steps.

Compared the drives, changed, sorted.

Chaz
10-08-2017, 09:57 AM
So, since I have changed my PSU, my steppers dont seem to want to perform. It could be a cheap PSU however not sure.

If I am going to add in another PSU, should I try and increase the voltage? I cant see the exact number, I cant find these drives anywhere - but lets assume it will take 48V DC. I also need to check if the current settings are correct for the specific voltage. Currently everything runs off a 24V 10A supply.

Would it be 'good practice' to try and get the voltage as high as possible?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4354/35642202914_295fbaf35c_b.jpg

Clive S
10-08-2017, 10:09 AM
Chaz its hard to see but if you look on the driver it gives the max voltage at bottom RH side (48V?) if so you could run them at say about 36V. Do yourself a favour and buy some decent drives like AM882 and run them at a higher voltage.

Also you don't say what PS you are using switch mode are not good for steppers.

Chaz
10-08-2017, 10:13 AM
Chaz its hard to see but if you look on the driver it gives the max voltage at bottom RH side (48V?) if so you could run them at say about 36V. Do yourself a favour and buy some decent drives like AM882 and run them at a higher voltage.

Also you don't say what PS you are using switch mode are not good for steppers.

Ye, possibly around 50V.

They did work well before the previous set of PSUs died. The current PSU is one of them el cheapo ebay ones, I presume they are SMPS.

Id like to sell the lathe but need it to be 100% reliable before I do. Any suggestions on what PSU would suit if I was just going to upgrade this? Lets assume 36 or 48V max.

lll take a look at the AM882 anyways.

Thanks

Chaz
10-08-2017, 10:26 AM
My best bet is probably something like this.

http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/linear-power-supplies/ps408-12-linear-power-supply-7.html

Move the drive power to this, leave the 24V supply to do the logic stuff only.

Clive S
10-08-2017, 10:31 AM
My best bet is probably something like this.

http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/linear-power-supplies/ps408-12-linear-power-supply-7.html

Move the drive power to this, leave the 24V supply to do the logic stuff only.

http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/linear-power-supplies.html

edit you beat me to it or build one

cropwell
10-08-2017, 11:39 AM
Also you don't say what PS you are using switch mode are not good for steppers.

Why ?

Chaz
10-08-2017, 11:43 AM
Why ?

I googled it.

This might help answer - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-cnc-machine-related-electronics/66687-linear-vs-switch-mode-power-supplies-steppers.html

Gary
10-08-2017, 11:50 AM
This driver is a three phase driver (For Three phase stepper motors) Looking at the part number it implies that the maximum voltage is 80V DC and the current is 6.0 A.
3 = three phase
M = Motor driver
8 = Max voltage (80V)
60 = 6.0 A maximum current.

This is the typical makeup of the part numbers.


Ye, possibly around 50V.

They did work well before the previous set of PSUs died. The current PSU is one of them el cheapo ebay ones, I presume they are SMPS.

Id like to sell the lathe but need it to be 100% reliable before I do. Any suggestions on what PSU would suit if I was just going to upgrade this? Lets assume 36 or 48V max.

lll take a look at the AM882 anyways.

Thanks

Chaz
10-08-2017, 12:02 PM
This driver is a three phase driver (For Three phase stepper motors) Looking at the part number it implies that the maximum voltage is 80V DC and the current is 6.0 A.
3 = three phase
M = Motor driver
8 = Max voltage (80V)
60 = 6.0 A maximum current.

This is the typical makeup of the part numbers.

Thanks Gary. I looked on your and a few other sites to try and find who makes this driver, but no such luck.

I also know little about the motors, it was all fit by someone before I bought the lathe. Not a bad job overall. The PSUs that failed looked to be fairly high end things, but voltage is only 24V.

Chaz
10-08-2017, 12:06 PM
Using that search phrase, Ive found this, similar.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-3-Phase-Stepper-Motor-Driver-8-3A-Driver-Router-/270754615099?nma=true&si=HLxxYpJANEqrFl80QE4U%252FNfLDaU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://www.dhgate.com/product/new-cnc-3-phase-step-motor-driver-controller/126671364.html

I might be able to find the manufacturer spec eventually :hurt:

Chaz
10-08-2017, 12:08 PM
Bingo, I think.

http://www.jmc-driver.com/h-pd-155.html#keyword=3M860&_pp=0_334

Gary
10-08-2017, 12:12 PM
So the 6 is RMA current and its up to 80V DC.



Bingo, I think.

http://www.jmc-driver.com/h-pd-155.html#keyword=3M860&_pp=0_334

Chaz
10-08-2017, 12:12 PM
So the 6 is RMA current and its up to 80V DC.

RMS ? ;p

Gary
10-08-2017, 12:38 PM
Yes RMS, have big manly fingers and the a and the s are quite close.

Chaz
10-08-2017, 12:44 PM
Yes RMS, have big manly fingers and the a and the s are quite close.

Plus, you deal with RMA stuff, so it could have been a finger memory thing. I do it often myself.

Chaz
10-08-2017, 12:45 PM
Ill also check the current setting - may bump this up (if not max already) and see if its makes the response better.

m_c
10-08-2017, 09:19 PM
So, since I have changed my PSU, my steppers dont seem to want to perform. It could be a cheap PSU however not sure.

If I am going to add in another PSU, should I try and increase the voltage? I cant see the exact number, I cant find these drives anywhere - but lets assume it will take 48V DC. I also need to check if the current settings are correct for the specific voltage. Currently everything runs off a 24V 10A supply.

Would it be 'good practice' to try and get the voltage as high as possible?


Have you tried running the lathe with a voltmeter (an oscilloscope would be better) on the powersupply to see how it's handling the load?

If you were getting good enough performance with 24V, I probably wouldn't be inclined to bump it up that much. I'd probably aim around 30-40V, but it would really depend on what the motors could handle. Remember higher voltage just means better performance at speed. At low speed it won't make much, if any difference.

Chaz
10-08-2017, 09:22 PM
Have you tried running the lathe with a voltmeter (an oscilloscope would be better) on the powersupply to see how it's handling the load?

If you were getting good enough performance with 24V, I probably wouldn't be inclined to bump it up that much. I'd probably aim around 30-40V, but it would really depend on what the motors could handle. Remember higher voltage just means better performance at speed. At low speed it won't make much, if any difference.

Nope, but was going to do that.

The current ability of the PSU is 10A (in theory), the same as it replaces. Its Ok with slow speed, its when I try to rapid that it tends to struggle. Ill take a closer look this weekend.

Chaz
12-08-2017, 01:33 PM
Interesting, no vault drop. The drives are actually 3M860.

I tried to set the current up - no change. Ive then ensure all the bits are well lubricated (the pump hasnt been run for a while), no real improvement.

Set the max speed down, seems OK at 700 although it should be able to do 2000 I think from the spec / manual.

Perhaps the lubrication is not getting to the dovetail / sliding area, difficult to get there without removing a lot of stuff. That said, it should be adjustable, will do some further research, perhaps the motors are stalling due to this.

m_c
12-08-2017, 08:19 PM
I wonder if there's something else damaged. It's a bit suspicious that everything worked before on 24V, yet now it doesn't.

Without an oscilloscope, or swapping parts, it's all pretty much guesswork. The fact the relay board got damaged before, possibly suggests the BOB might also of been damaged, and is something that only shows up at higher step rates.

Chaz
12-08-2017, 08:59 PM
I wonder if there's something else damaged. It's a bit suspicious that everything worked before on 24V, yet now it doesn't.

Without an oscilloscope, or swapping parts, it's all pretty much guesswork. The fact the relay board got damaged before, possibly suggests the BOB might also of been damaged, and is something that only shows up at higher step rates.

Perhaps however Ive since swapped it.

Im tempted to put in another PSU but not worth spending on. I seem recall that I was pretty much on max before. The motors look fairly old, I cant find a spec for them, perhaps something else that wasnt done correctly doing the retrofit.

Chaz
12-08-2017, 11:44 PM
So, Berger Stepper motor.

4.4A, is that 50V DC?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4399/35694719564_1c60d4766e_k.jpg

Chaz
12-08-2017, 11:49 PM
Found this - http://www.equitecnica.com.ar/files/8/9/160720081320121216225212_8_9.pdf they only list 1 motor that does 4.4A, the torque matches. Max Supply Voltage is 92V according to this .... wonder if its correct. Might explain why the motor doesnt perform running 24 Volts.

Chaz
13-08-2017, 12:03 AM
Noted that the drive can do a much better microstep rate. I wonder if the motor would support that and give me any better performance?

Chaz
14-08-2017, 09:47 AM
Does anyone know if there are 'charge pumps' for sale as a standalone kit? I cant find any and dont want to buy a BOB with it for 80 if I can avoid it. I realise its a simple circuit but dont have the time to build something at this stage.