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Chimestrike
05-09-2016, 11:00 PM
Hi All,

I'll be honest I'm not very good at this sell yourself bit but here goes..

I'm Rich from Newcastle and well I stumbled upon your site tonight and thought I would come over and see if I could pick some peoples brains on the cnc side of things and maybe offer some help on the PC side of things.

I've been a cnc newbie for years with my little Roland PNC2300A until now when I'm ready to join the big boys with a new OXCNC machine in a week or 2 (unless I'm warned off??).

Anyway, thanks for having me and hope to get to know a few of you as we go.

njhussey
06-09-2016, 04:52 PM
Hi Rich,

Welcome to the forum! There's plenty of experienced CNC'ers on here (I don't claim to be one of them by the way!!) for you to pick the brains of. There's no such thing as a silly question, the only silly question is the one you don't ask!! The OXCNC might be OK for you, but depends on what you want to do with it as it's not the stiffest machine in the world :rolleyes:

Robin Hewitt
06-09-2016, 05:37 PM
Would that be this Ox CNC kit? :joker:

http://ooznest.co.uk/3D-Printer-CNC-Kits-Bundles/OX-CNC-Machine?gclid=CLjhuayI-84CFUMo0wod7OMNPQ

Chimestrike
06-09-2016, 07:07 PM
Thats the one Robin, I was looking at the 1500mm*1500mm version and was going to drop a dewalt unit in it.

Chimestrike
06-09-2016, 07:12 PM
Hi Rich,

Welcome to the forum! There's plenty of experienced CNC'ers on here (I don't claim to be one of them by the way!!) for you to pick the brains of. There's no such thing as a silly question, the only silly question is the one you don't ask!! The OXCNC might be OK for you, but depends on what you want to do with it as it's not the stiffest machine in the world :rolleyes:

Thanks Neil, one question I do have is could you tell me please. How long does the post moderation lasts for ?

Chimestrike
06-09-2016, 08:43 PM
Yeah thats the one Robin, 1500mm*1500mm with plans to stick the dewalt router on it.

Chimestrike
06-09-2016, 08:58 PM
Hi Rich,

Welcome to the forum! There's plenty of experienced CNC'ers on here (I don't claim to be one of them by the way!!) for you to pick the brains of. There's no such thing as a silly question, the only silly question is the one you don't ask!! The OXCNC might be OK for you, but depends on what you want to do with it as it's not the stiffest machine in the world :rolleyes:

Hi Neil, I was looking at using it to do some flat pack builds (arcade cabinets etc..) and some house name plate/signs and maybe some arty stuff too.

Do you think it would be up to the job?

JAZZCNC
06-09-2016, 10:40 PM
(unless I'm warned off??).

Be afraid Very Afraid.!!! . . . . . . Weak and flimsy and poorly designed. Save the money and DIY build something proper.!

Chimestrike
06-09-2016, 10:41 PM
Thanks Jazzcnc,

Any recomendations for less than 1500?

cropwell
06-09-2016, 10:56 PM
Any recomendations for less than 1500?

I have a serious feeling of deja vu on this thread - I think the next post will be 'Double your budget !'

Rob.

Chimestrike
06-09-2016, 10:58 PM
Sadly not an option Rob, I may just have to go down the route of the OX and beef it up as I go on as to be honest I've had to wait about 6 years to get to this point (kids bleed money from you lol)

JAZZCNC
06-09-2016, 11:00 PM
Thanks Jazzcnc,

Any recomendations for less than 1500?

If your wanting to buy off the shelf then I'm afraid not.

The problem comes from the fact to build anything of decent quality that's worth selling and Make Profit which business needs is impossible at this price point.

Those Kits your looking at will work for basic jobs but with limited capabilty's. Don't be fooled by Video's of them cutting Aluminium and Steel etc because it's false.!! . . . I can make my mother sawing machine do that but won't last very long or be very good and same applies here.!

They are great for learning the intimate workings of CNC machine and what's needed for good machine because in short amount of time the poor design and flimsy construction means you'll spend lots of time fixing and working around all it's short comings than you will actually cutting.

If you are at all handy and few tools(and know how to use them) then with 1500-2000 you can build a nice machine that will do everything you want and then some.
That said it will need careful planning and research to achieve. This is not something to rush into else you will waste money quickly.

However all you need to know is here on this forum and plenty of good designs and helpful people. If you do go down the DIY route feel free to contact me, I'll gladly guide you thru the Booby traps and advise on the best approach.

Chimestrike
06-09-2016, 11:24 PM
Hum..

If I said it was just going to be used for wood (no need for metal) mainly pattern cutting mdf/ply for cabinets and the odd bit of vgroove work for signs (hardwood) and some plexy glass would this change anything ?

I know it would be an entry point machine and in fairness a bit of a learning tool in that respect. I also understand what you are saying that it may require work to keep it working which I can do.

Question is when you say it's flimsy are we talking about rail bend, underpowered motors, juddering? If so is it something I could modify and upgrade once it pays for itself or are we saying they are a complete waste of money.

I'm willing to try a self build, but I lack the confidence to be honest that I would make a worse job of it even though I have a reasonable skill set and tool kit.

Cheers

JAZZCNC
07-09-2016, 01:25 AM
Hum..

If I said it was just going to be used for wood (no need for metal) mainly pattern cutting mdf/ply for cabinets and the odd bit of vgroove work for signs (hardwood) and some plexy glass would this change anything ?

I know it would be an entry point machine and in fairness a bit of a learning tool in that respect. I also understand what you are saying that it may require work to keep it working which I can do.

Question is when you say it's flimsy are we talking about rail bend, underpowered motors, juddering? If so is it something I could modify and upgrade once it pays for itself or are we saying they are a complete waste of money.

Well my first reaction would be to say just don't bother it's waste of money. Which is my advice really.

But to be fair then it will cut those materials. However that doesn't mean it will cut them correctly in regards to speeds n feeds etc or last very long if run for extended periods.

So suppose the correct answer is for occasional usage and as learning tool then yes it will do the Job.
Would I advise this route then NO I wouldn't because I know what you can do with 2000. Which is realsiticly what you'll end up spending keeping this running and modding etc.

Now you'll probably get people who have these machines saying I'm talking Bollocks and there machine works great.? . . . . But that's mostly because they don't know good machine and the difference.!!

Chimestrike
07-09-2016, 10:05 AM
Thanks for that, can you make any sugestions/recommendations as to good builds I can look into that would do the job I'm your opinion ?

Robin Hewitt
07-09-2016, 10:53 AM
I had a look at the OXCNC website but didn't see any numbers for accuracy and repeatability.
Have you found any user reviews? I have found it is always a mistake to search for user feedback after parting with my hard earned.
Can the OXCNC be beefed up? The side rails seem to be enclosed by the gantry bearings, no room for added beef.
OTOH, if you aren't in a rush and do not mind whittling it away, beef is not necessarily necessary.
Is there a worry about dust getting in to those linear bearings? They are completely exposed and wiper free.
You pays your money, you takes your choice.

mekanik
07-09-2016, 11:03 AM
Hi Chimestrike
Welcome to the forum
Best bet would be to have a look through the build logs, to give you some idea of decent machines and the work involved, then if you feel you have the required skills to take on a build give Dean(Jazzcnc) a ring and have a crack.
It would be useful if you can weld as steel is going to be the cheapest option,also you don't want to be using a router on the Z axis, far to noisy and will wreck the bearings in no time.
Good Luck
Mike

njhussey
07-09-2016, 11:31 AM
Id have a look at Kingcreaky's build...that'll do what you want and uses relatively inexpensive components....

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Chimestrike
07-09-2016, 01:58 PM
Thanks Guys,

I'll have a look at Kingcreaky's build as suggested and see if it's something I could do or come close to. In respect of the numbers for the OXcnc I didn't even think of this as to be honest assumed as they seemed reputable and the machine they cloned seemed to have good reviews so maybe a little too much blind faith??

Also I think I could be a little green behind the ears with known problems (mainly them not being known by me)...

I do however have a mig welder and while out of practice I can weld to a level above 'pigeon shit' so should ok.

But any advice or direction you guy can offer would be greatly appreciated as we all know there is no replacement for experience :)

njhussey
07-09-2016, 02:17 PM
I do however have a mig welder and while out of practice I can weld to a level above 'pigeon shit' so should ok.

But any advice or direction you guy can offer would be greatly appreciated as we all know there is no replacement for experience :)

If you can weld just above "pigeon shit" then you're at the same level as me!!!

Advice is to go look at some of the builds here (http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/253-DIY-Router-Build-Logs), knock up something in whatever CAD program you use (or learn to use, sketchup is what I started with) start a build thread and don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't buy anything (especially electrical items) before asking as although lots of the cheap "kits" of electronics seem like a good idea they're usually compromised in some way to get down to the price.

Whilst you'll be steered generally towards using linear profiled rails, high end controllers etc. by the good people on here you can do a decent hobbyist build for machining wood panels with supported round rails and cheaper BOB's etc. :thumsup:

Chimestrike
07-09-2016, 08:34 PM
I've been having a look through the builds people have done and I'm starting to think I may be out of my depth a little with designing my own machine aspect as most of the builds I've seen look very professional and not in a league of something I think I could do (although could be wrong )

JAZZCNC
07-09-2016, 10:35 PM
I've been having a look through the builds people have done and I'm starting to think I may be out of my depth a little with designing my own machine aspect as most of the builds I've seen look very professional and not in a league of something I think I could do (although could be wrong )

Don't be intimidated because it's not so difficult if your prepared to listen and do some prep/research.

Your needs are not exactly challenging so the level of accuracy doesn't need to be massively high and like Neil says you can get away with lower grade components to some degree.
Don't be put off when you see people talking about Epoxy leveling etc. For Wood router going to this level isn't required. With carefull attention when building and with design that allows for adjustabilty then it's very possible to build machine without doing any of this and still give more than enough accuracy for routing wood and plastics.

What is more important is repeatablity and Stiffness. Repeatabilty mostly comes from Component quality so going too cheap will cause issues. Stiffness is soley down to design and materials used.

This is the Issue with those Kits. The design is weak and the Component level poor, ie V bearings running Soft aluminium = Wear and Slop = Bag of shite.!!

Nice stiff steel frame and Gantry running on Supported Round rail using Ballscrews not Timing belts will Knock those kits into Next month.

Steel is cheap and if you can weld then the design part is easy.? There's only so many ways to build these machines and there's no need to re-invent the wheel so just copy some buggers else design. That's what most on here have done.!!

Size will detemine the design to small degree but if your not wanting massive cutting area then design can be very simple and easy to weld up.
I'll gladly help you with design of machine and steer in right direction on the Key areas.

Electricly then again you'll see people going to great lengths building Control boxes. Again you don't need to go to this level at first. There is a minimum level that's required but it's not rocket science and again we can advise on this.
What is VERY important is the quality of the Electrics used. It's here were most machines are let down or fail. Again we can advise and with careful buying you can have quality electronics with reliable and safe control box for not lot money.

If you can weld and have little patience along with eye for details then you'll easily build machine that will do everything you require. Key is not rushing and Not buying anything without fully understanding what your buying and why it's right for your needs..! . . . If unsure the ASK.!!

I've helped many many people to build machines and If your prepared to Ask questions and LISTEN to what advised then I guarantee you will succeed and have great machine for same money as those kits.

Chimestrike
07-09-2016, 11:17 PM
If you are willing to guide me then I will be more than happy to listen to your advice on this as I want to do it right and as I mentioned earlier I've wanted a decent sized machine for years and if this means I have to wait a little longer it wont hurt as I've taken 6-8 years in total to get where I am and you made a good point that I would just just throw good money after bad with a off the shelf job.

I think my main concern though is not knowing where to source parts and in some instances the right name to search for for parts.

Also after thinking my other issue was making the plates to hold say the gantry, but then I remember this is a forum full of people who could cnc it for me for a price lol, and thinking of repairs would it be worth my wild to be able to mill aluminum too?

But yes if you are willing to help me I would be greatly thankful of this.

So the question is what would you need from me to start?

JAZZCNC
07-09-2016, 11:42 PM
Ok Good you know it make Sense Rodney. . . Lol

Start by giving sensible cutting area and maximum material thickness you'll cut. Just realise that the larger you go the harder and more expensive it gets.

Wouldn't advise going larger than Quarter sheet for First build on budget. Even then I'd only go with this size if really needed and would be limited to soft materials only. Ie No cutting aluminium.
This is mostly because with low budget you'll want to keep the machine restricted to using Single ballscrew on the long axis. Going wider than this or wanting to cut harder materails will require 2 ballscrews. This means other than the extra Ballscrew and bearings you'll need Extra motor, drive, coupler and larger power requirements. These bump the price quickly.

If you go with smaller cutting envalope of say 900 x 600 or 600 x 400 then you'll build much stronger machine that is very capable Cutting aluminium.

Clive S
07-09-2016, 11:43 PM
So the question is what would you need from me to start?Enthusiasm And you seem to have plenty of that. Welcome aboard and remember most of us started just with just a dream. You have found one of the very experienced guys on here so that's a good start. Good luck with the build.

njhussey
07-09-2016, 11:53 PM
.....most of us started just with just a dream.

Look at what I came up with as my first attempt at a CNC machine.....I was definately dreaming then :)

Chimestrike
08-09-2016, 12:15 AM
Thanks guys you know how to make a guy feel welcome and not as daft lol

I was hoping to do a cutting area of 1500* 1500 just for some of the arcade plans I had, mainly for the height but could look to see if I could reduce the width.

In relation to depth I'm not sure what's normal as I would use 20mm MDF for example but then thinking some hard woods would be thicker so would 60mm be overkill ??

Thinking about budget I did work out 1500 as a ball park but could add a bit as I go if really needed ( before wife kills me for it )

JAZZCNC
08-09-2016, 01:46 AM
I was hoping to do a cutting area of 1500* 1500 just for some of the arcade plans I had, mainly for the height but could look to see if I could reduce the width.

This makes thing very hard to achieve on budget of 1500 but it's do-able if you can increase the budget to account for the extra requirements needed. (aprox 500)
However the design becomes even more important and achieving accuracy becomes harder. That Said don't let this scare you and it's still possibly. So If you think you need the extra travel then go for it because no point building if it's not going to fit what you need but you need to be made aware going large increases the build process, slightly compromises strength and costs more.!! . . So be sure you really need it.??



In relation to depth I'm not sure what's normal as I would use 20mm MDF for example but then thinking some hard woods would be thicker so would 60mm be overkill ??

60mm is OK and realistic figure. Many build with huge Z axis travels only to realise they hardly ever use them and it's mostly cutting sheet materials in 20 -25mm region. This Compromises the machines strength where it spends 95% or more of it's time cutting. This results in poor finish and shorter tool life thru chatter and resonance for very little gain.


Thinking about budget I did work out 1500 as a ball park but could add a bit as I go if really needed ( before wife kills me for it )

OH didn't we mention that along with CNC machine shortly after building or if really lucky before building comes a Divorce.! . .Lol (I'm not joking and another excellent reason to build.!!)

Chimestrike
08-09-2016, 10:13 AM
Yay spend all of the monies lol..

Thinking I'm not 100% sure if I could get away with 610*1220 for my builds as larger cabinets could be a problem, but then I'm think howany will I make and I could always 2 part them..

I think I could get a bit more cash into this to get the better bits so I could do light aluminium work if it would work with the above size?

Fivetide
08-09-2016, 03:31 PM
Here’s my tuppence worth on “low-cost” cnc’s. (my real life analogy) I bought a DSLR camera for 1,800 (sold along time ago) about 5 years ago because I fancied doing a bit of photography. Then I realise I actually liked making video’s just as much. The camera was amazing at photos but it had limited capability’s when it came to video. So by this time I was skint but really wanted to make some decent video footage. Now a half decent video camera or broadcast ready one would cost me about 2,000 + 2nd hand, that would produce really good footage straight out of the box. My budget was less than 300. So I hit google and spent a good 2-3 weeks looking for a solution. Finally, after many - many forum posts youtube videos and emails I bought the camera, a 7-year-old Cannon E50. I won’t bore you with the details, but with a bit of free software a couple of very cheap prime lenses (20 each of fleabay) and decent CF card I could take RAW video the same as some of the much-much more expensive cine cameras. But no auto focus, limited continuous filming time and overheating problems just to mention a few. And the learning curve was steep because it involved a lot more post production with editing, colourisation software etc. If I was patient and took time to set up the shot and managed my expectations I could achieve, in my opinion, good results. I wasn’t going for an Oscar or a career in film making, it was just something I wanted to do. However, one day a friend of mine who has a web design company, had a client who was having a company intro video filmed by a professional production company. He had spoken with the film makers and asked if I could go down and watch, do a bit of filming pick up some tips and tricks etc. After spending the whole day with them and seeing the results I realised that there was a vast difference between, what I was doing and what professionals do.
But I realise my limitations the same as I realise the limitations of my CNC and work accordingly and know what results I will get. However, if I decide to move to a better video camera or a more expensive CNC I will take with me all that knowledge and I expect to build on the capability’s and produce better quality work.
You can make money out of the cheap Chinese CNC’s, I know I have done it. When I was totally skint about 3 and half years ago (under threat of eviction and not in a good place in my life) I designed a bit of a fancy bird box, that looked like an old clock. I used cheap ply and even cheaper external paint. I worked a good 8 hours a day and.. less overheads + 20% I was putting away for any breakage of the machine, I was bringing in on average of 100 per day. That got me out of the shit, but it was hard work and frankly the machine took a beating. People still ask me if make them even though it’s to replace the ones that had rotted to bits lol, and yeah I bang a couple out on a weekend just for the fun of it for them (that sounded rude).
I have an ambition now and I’ve set my goal’s to achieve it. I will be buying another cheap CNC and making a bit more money from that, then when I have scrimped and saved buy a half decent CNC and continue like that. Each stage with let me know if I’m on the right path, but nothing will be lost when it comes to experience. And of course I can always sell it and get some money back for the next project.
BTW I looked at making my own cnc, and rejected the idea, really because I don’t have the confidence. If JAZZ was my next door neighbour I would have no qualms about attempting to build one. And who knows, in the future I might go for it.
So that’s my story, hope this helps you towards your decision.

Robin Hewitt
08-09-2016, 05:23 PM
No problem, he has already succeeded. By setting the tool clearance to 60mm his machine is already 20 times more rigid than someone who thought 200 mm might be necessary for some unlikely job in the remote future. He can chuck a sacrificial 20mm MDF sheet over the bed and get an even more sensible 40mm clearance when the penny drops. If you are not engraving there is no point having a clearance greater than your tool sticks out the chuck.

Chimestrike
08-09-2016, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the input guys, (I'm leaving the bad joke about knocking up a bird(in a)house out) but I get the point that you are getting at with the you get what you put in, I know I could hack some bits on it but I know it's not ideal.

But I've been thinking and I could put up with the extra cost if it means I get what I want/need after a good think and dig around I think the below would be my asks on it:

Needs:
Cutting area of 1250mm x 650mm (quarter sheet 8x4)
Z axis 60mm (unless you think I would need anything more)

Recommendations on easy to grasp designs software as currently I do the 2d vector work in adobe illustrator and open it in aspire (if that works do I need to change it, is there an easier way?)

Wants:
Mill aluminium / Other soft metals (no idea on steel?)
Cutting area of half 8x4 sheet (would love it but as you said it would sacrifice quality so..)
Some sort of self homing would be nice (if only on the Z axis)

Also as I'm making space this weekend do I need a metal stand for the machine or will a well built wooden unit work ok?

JAZZCNC
08-09-2016, 09:54 PM
Needs:
Cutting area of 1250mm x 650mm (quarter sheet 8x4)
Z axis 60mm (unless you think I would need anything more)

Perfect dimensions and you'll have much stronger machine.


Recommendations on easy to grasp designs software as currently I do the 2d vector work in adobe illustrator and open it in aspire (if that works do I need to change it, is there an easier way?)

Nothing wrong with that setup so if your used to it stay with it.


Wants:
Mill aluminium / Other soft metals (no idea on steel?)
Cutting area of half 8x4 sheet (would love it but as you said it would sacrifice quality so..)
Some sort of self homing would be nice (if only on the Z axis)

Light duty Aluminium work will be possible but don't expect too much. Don't Even think about Steel.!!

Homing is easy and on All axis. However when you say Homing do you actually mean Homing to Fixed location using HOME Switch or are you meaning touch plate for setting the Z zero work coordinate.?
Two completely different things but both very easy to have and for hardly any cost.


Also as I'm making space this weekend do I need a metal stand for the machine or will a well built wooden unit work ok?

Good Strong wooden bench will work fine.

Chimestrike
08-09-2016, 10:05 PM
Yeah the homing I was referring to was the end of the bit in the spindle, but if its easy enough to add in great !!

I am in your hands then please let me know what I need to do to go from here so I can get this started (other than make some space and a bench lol

Boyan Silyavski
08-09-2016, 10:26 PM
60mm Z axis? :hopelessness: :boxing:

i have worked a lot of time on 90mm Z axis machine limited to 60mm travel due to sacrificial sheet and that's the absolute minimum i would ever wish for sb. In fact i don't wish that to sb. Having just double the travel /120mm/ will be like sleeping in 5 star hotel compared to a hostal/



Why:
-10-20mm for MDF, wood, laminate or expanded PVC sacrificial layer ,

-20mm wood or aluminum fixture when producing many repeatable parts, double sided parts, etc.

-20mm material / the typical




ok, 60mm till now.

so what we do with the typical 30mm bit extending from spindle +5mm Safe Z . sometimes even 50mm /when using 12mm or 1/2 cutter/

what about work holding - chucks, vice?

what about boxes engraving and other thicker than 20mm stuff?

what about vacuum table?





Cheap cheap, but : Mehh, i say the saving from this is no more than 200 pounds, including Z plates, Z square Hiwin, gantry or table sides.


The only reason i see to make a Z axis 60mm is to use only 2 long Hiwin blocks on Z and one block each gantry side. But who would do that? 4 blocks saving is 120 pounds approximately.


IMHO 120mm is the minimum Z travel and 160 table to gantry/Z clearance, not counting the bit protruding from spindle. I am saying anything below this is not worth spending the money, except if not for some special purpose machine, that is clear what exactly will do all day.


Also is worth noting that when we start digging deeper, having in mind the ball screw nut length, the ball screw end supports, and all Z parts like pulleys, we arrive at a precise relation between Z travel and gantry clearance, when machine properly designed.

Chimestrike
08-09-2016, 10:59 PM
So Boyan, you mean have a longer z travel but increase the bed height so you only use what you need, then if required lower the bed for the deeper cuts?

JAZZCNC
08-09-2016, 11:13 PM
Boyan think your missunder standing not saying 60mm clearence between gantry and bed. We are talking actual cutting depth so obviously there will be clearance for at least 60mm plus shank and to be honest I always design for Drills rather than tools because they tend to be longer.

All this will end up at around the figures you quoted.

Chimestrike
08-09-2016, 11:17 PM
That makes more sense to me now