Advice on converting my VMC

[Proteus]

As i am a newbie compared to you guys out there, i really could use some good general advice.
I am about to rip out alle the electronics, steppers, spindle and PSU on my Boxford VMC300, and convert it for Mach 4 software.
My intention is to keep the orgiginal ball screws unless somebody here had some poor experience with them.(Plan is to change the later on).
The plan is to make use of the KL34H295-43-8A 906oz, Nema 34 stepper motors from Automation Technologies, with the KL-8070D Digital Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver-32 bit DSP Based from the same company for X/Y/Z axis.
As i plan for a 4/5th axis cradle, i have planned the KL23H2100-50 570oz Nema 23 stepper motors from Automation Technologies, with the KL-6050 Digital Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver-32 bit DSP Based.
570oz for the cradle might be a bit overkill, but i worry about the holding torque when the chips start flying.
The choice is based on me having experience with only these steppers and drivers from my previous BF25 conversion to Mach 3.
All axis will be driven by toothbelt and slightly geared.
Originally, the VMC300 is equipped with Ametek MAE HS200-3424-0170 Nema 34 steppers at 212,4Oz/Inch(from what i can see), and SGS Thompson GS-D500A drivers delivering 5 Amps peak at 92V.
I am also planning on replacing the origial RS520GR1000 spindle and driver to a more powerful spindle to increase the milling speed.
PSU... Yeah right.. What to choose.
Should i keep it at 24V industry standard to reduce possible noise, or increase it to 36, 48 or even higher?
The transformers installed is maked 220VAC/60-18-12VAC for the first transformer and 220VAC/120/115Vac.The last one for the spindle i guess,
Controller/BOB..
Should i choose Network, USB or stay with the paralell port type?
Advantages / disadvantages?
Besides i need something to communicate with the ATC.
(No, i dont need it. But it`s already there, so why not make use of it?)
Any comments or advice is higly appreciated.

1932219323193241932519326

[Chaz]

Budget? That will guide what you do with the machine.

If you can afford it, get the CS Labs IP-S unit and go from there. Its not cheap but it is better than your average parallel port option and you can use newer hardware as the CS Labs is connected via a TCP/IP network, not directly with the port itself.

24V is good, its been the standard on my Denford and my Emco CNC lathe. CS Labs is also 24V for the logic / power.

You can take a number of inputs / outputs into and out of the CS Labs unit to allow you to then control the ATC via macro / code in Mach 3/4.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Or you could be our guinea pig and try one of the standalone 3- 4 axis chinese controllers. I will point you from where and which one exactly, if interested. Around 500-600 euro. means 300 euro cheaper than CSMIO and mach4 is another 200. I will buy it off if you are not happy. Just i don't have physical time to do all i want to, and one of these things is test said controller.

It is able to rigid tap and tool change . I am talking about the 980- 990MC , here is the manual (http://www.gsk.com.cn/system/upload/2015109141056.pdf) . Dean said will be testing the 1000 one/numbers dont mean anything, its totally made by another company/ . So meanwhile i could test another one from third company. All of them are similarly priced and look like similar,

I am talking like this one here (https://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/EMS-free-New-Version-English-Panel-shipping-3-Axis-CNC-controller-for-lathe-and-grinding-machine/324577_32262373601.html) / this not the best price i think/ .

[Chaz]

Or you could be our guinea pig and try one of the standalone 3- 4 axis chinese controllers. I will point you from where and which one exactly, if interested. Around 500-600 euro. means 300 euro cheaper than CSMIO and mach4 is another 200. I will buy it off if you are not happy. Just i don't have physical time to do all i want to, and one of these things is test said controller.

It is able to rigid tap and tool change . I am talking about the 980- 990MC , here is the manual (http://www.gsk.com.cn/system/upload/2015109141056.pdf) . Dean said will be testing the 1000 one/numbers dont mean anything, its totally made by another company/ . So meanwhile i could test another one from third company. All of them are similarly priced and look like similar,

I am talking like this one here (https://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/EMS-free-New-Version-English-Panel-shipping-3-Axis-CNC-controller-for-lathe-and-grinding-machine/324577_32262373601.html) / this not the best price i think/ .

Am also interested in this. Do you know if we can use something like Fusion 360 for CAM via a post processor?

[Boyan Silyavski]

Am also interested in this. Do you know if we can use something like Fusion 360 for CAM via a post processor?

I use /for the cheap one i was reviewing/ standard Fanuc or G code in mm, which is basically the same i think. I am not a G code expert :-), but it works without a flaw. I read already a couple manuals of the more expensive ones, seems the same. All pretty standard. Now the part about the toolchangers must be read more carefully, manual says linear and rotary, but as i don't have one i a bit lost there. I think that happens with macro command .

That's why it should be all tested. Cheap controller says it recognises G20 and G21 , but no such luck. File must be in mm. So i think they will have some minor flows. Hopefully not very big. For example i still have not it clear what about the M6 command? Dont chinese manually tool change? Did not find info in the manuals.

Of course such minor details are not a problem for me, given the savings.

[magicniner]

Any PP can be set to generate Imperial or Metric, it's just a case of whether it spits out a G20 or a G21 in the right place, this is independent of what controller the PP supports.

[Proteus]

Hi Chaz, and thanx for your quick reply.
Have not planned a max budget yet. Might have to take it step by step if it gets to expensive though. Just want to get it up and running.
I have to admit, the CSMIO/IP-S looks really tempting after viewing docs and some youtube videos.
But like you said, it`s not cheap. However being able to control it from Mach software is the positive part for me not to familiar with heavy programming.
Manuals and docs have been stored locally on my computer for some late night reading.

[Chaz]

Hi Chaz, and thanx for your quick reply.
Have not planned a max budget yet. Might have to take it step by step if it gets to expensive though. Just want to get it up and running.
I have to admit, the CSMIO/IP-S looks really tempting after viewing docs and some youtube videos.
But like you said, it`s not cheap. However being able to control it from Mach software is the positive part for me not to familiar with heavy programming.
Manuals and docs have been stored locally on my computer for some late night reading.

You can do cheaper and have Mach3. The breakout board on my lathe is only like £30. This gives step / direction for a number of axis and a single relay output. It's basic but works.

[Proteus]

Hello Boyan, and thanx for reply :-)
Yes, i have been looking at these controllers.
Found several of them at ebay like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/English-Panel-4-Axis-CNC-controller-for-milling-and-boring-machine-/331785938231?hash=item4d3ffba537:g:rloAAOSwG-1Wy-32
Dont mind being a guinea pig, but my experience in programming CNC is not exactly fierce. Which means i would like to start with making the drawings and run it from there(that i do have some experience with).
In time i want to start playing around with the programming part in depth.
Right now i follow my old KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) theory, trying to find a cost effective solution i can start with.
However, manuals have been downloaded some time ago and i will attempt to study this in due time.

[Chaz]

Hello Boyan, and thanx for reply :-)
Yes, i have been looking at these controllers.
Found several of them at ebay like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/English-Panel-4-Axis-CNC-controller-for-milling-and-boring-machine-/331785938231?hash=item4d3ffba537:g:rloAAOSwG-1Wy-32
Dont mind being a guinea pig, but my experience in programming CNC is not exactly fierce. Which means i would like to start with making the drawings and run it from there(that i do have some experience with).
In time i want to start playing around with the programming part in depth.
Right now i follow my old KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) theory, trying to find a cost effective solution i can start with.
However, manuals have been downloaded some time ago and i will attempt to study this in due time.

3 Axis even a bit cheaper.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/English-Panel-3-Axis-CNC-controller-for-milling-and-boring-machine/331785937479?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1% 26asc%3D39243%26meid%3Db87dc98539b44241b2ed833f6ae 5b19f%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D331 785938231

[Proteus]

You can do cheaper and have Mach3. The breakout board on my lathe is only like £30. This gives step / direction for a number of axis and a single relay output. It's basic but works.

Yeah, i know Chaz.
But my plan is not necessarily finding a solution as cheap as possible. I will spend the money necessary(within limits) converting it to a good accurate VMC.
However i was hoping to find parts I`m able to handle without me studying programming for a couple of years before i get it up and running.
Hope i don`t sound impatiant though :-)

[Chaz]

Yeah, i know Chaz.
But my plan is not necessarily finding a solution as cheap as possible. I will spend the money necessary(within limits) converting it to a good accurate VMC.
However i was hoping to find parts I`m able to handle without me studying programming for a couple of years before i get it up and running.
Hope i don`t sound impatiant though :-)

Just highlighting the scale of options, so from £50 to thousands for a controller.

[Proteus]

Chaz,
I apologize if my question can seem somewhat stupid, but how do i control the 4/5th axis cradle if i install a 3 axis controller ?
Jupp.. I`m a newbie :-)

[Boyan Silyavski]

Yeah, i know Chaz.
But my plan is not necessarily finding a solution as cheap as possible. I will spend the money necessary(within limits) converting it to a good accurate VMC.
However i was hoping to find parts I`m able to handle without me studying programming for a couple of years before i get it up and running.
Hope i don`t sound impatiant though :-)


The offline controller is simpler than the combo Windows-Mach3/4-motion control plugin-motion control. What programming? The first part of the manual covers manual programming of simple milling jobs i think that you mistakenly took for programming..

Once you set up your machine in controller menu
stick usb and hit probe, then play and you are done.

The mach 3/4 is the same as above, plus install Windows, plugin, macros, custom screens, etc.

All this talk about the offline controllers lately comes as search continues for simpler and more reliable than the windows combinations. These have existed from the time machine exists, now for first time they are cheaper than the windows solutions, which to begin with, were born out of necessity, cause a Siemens controller would set you up even today 10k

[Proteus]

Hmm.. Okay Boyan,
I think i seriously need to sit down and take a closer look at the manual on this offline controller...

[Proteus]

Must be something to this GSK 990 controller, because i just noticed Weiss Machinery are using them on some of their mills..

[JAZZCNC]

Or you could be our guinea pig and try one of the standalone 3- 4 axis chinese controllers. I will point you from where and which one exactly, if interested. Around 500-600 euro. means 300 euro cheaper than CSMIO and mach4 is another 200. I will buy it off if you are not happy. Just i don't have physical time to do all i want to, and one of these things is test said controller.

Boyan That's little out of order to me and not very good advise for someone who's stated got no experience and who's wanting to convert a mill with full ATC.

The work involved just for the ATC is enough to make experienced user shy away and that's with mach3/4. So with Chinese controller that very few people know anything about with Chinglish manual that's about clear as mud isn't some thing I'd be recommending any new user to get into.!

Proteus you need to think long and hard how your going to tackle this and what hardware your going to use other wise you could cripple or spoil very nice machine.
Don't let all this talk about Offline controllers scare you away from PC based controllers because they work fine and have massive user base which can help you no end. Esp with bespoke ATC setups etc.
The same can't be said for the offline controllers and the jury is still out and will be for very long time untill they become more common.

Also I'm pretty sure they won't be simple to setup for anything but basic ATC setup. You will be required to write macros or learn some form of ladder logic for more complex ATC.
The same is true for Mach3 or Linux etc but with the difference that many have already done it or will be able to assist with macros etc.

Good luck.

[Boyan Silyavski]

I am not sure about what you say Dean. Part of me agrees, part of me thinks differently. I am not defending anything here, just my cold reasonable thoughts /of a traitor who sometimes out of frustration is secretly working for the enemy :greedy_dollars:/




This is how i am thinking.I am just proposing.Anyone should decide for himself. Only the facts:



-you can not skip machine setup with either controller

-that mr H. or sb else has made his machine ATC work with Mach3 or 4 is Not = support from sb if you start going the same way. Even if someone that knows will have the desire to help you, these people are busy, so lack of time will make that impossible.
I have still fresh memories about 2x expensive Galil boards in my possession,you know there is a plugin for them and Mach3. Even a support forum. fresh memories come to mind how nobody could help me when help was needed. So- No, don't rely to support or help if doing anything specific.

-an expert in Macros will have no problem programming any controller or software and making an ATC work

-Windows is crappy, PC even a cheap one could become quite expensive when starts to waste your time. Especially if you value it. You need right away to change the disk to a flash drive to avoid reliability problems, reinstall windows and so on,

-exchanging a dead controller is 1/2 hour. changing a PC-combo could take days . I know that for a fact, even that i am a Pc geek. What about the people that are not?

- i am sure the user database on the Chinese controllers is much bigger in volume than any typical one or even the whole Mach user database. These controllers are sold in the millions and i know that for a fact. Its known for a fact that they are fitted on ATC machines, have seen enough videos on the net and that some companies silently retrofit them here in Europe.

-if you hire sb from west expect >50-60 per hour for that job. I know at least of a couple of companies that could sell you the controller a bit more expensive but know what they are doing and speak English. So presale questions could be asked and even they could do the heavy lifting with the ATC setup.

-when real problems are encountered with an EU or USA made board, all publicity crap is not valid. Expect to be the guinea pig. Paying guinea pig. Expect lame answers, unacceptance of the problem and so on. No beauty from that moment on.




at the other hand:

-Chinese are extremely unreliable, cheat like monkeys, haggle like old gypsies and pretend to be dumb like donkeys. Like every other Asian they think they are superior to us - in trade, intelligence and cunning. Its a fact that any Asian is better in trade.

-Chinglish manuals are serious challenge to anyone's intelligence

-Chinese don't care what they sell here, they have enormous market

-Chinese don't have a hacking idea what we need, what functions are needed for DIY machine of any type or for a retrofit.

-Whatever they sell to us they seriously overcharge for it compared to their real price for Chinese market and meanwhile having the self satisfaction that they are hacking us

-Chinese make copies of the copies

[Proteus]

Jazzcnc, Thank you for Your thoughts :-)
Beleive me, i can not be talked into a solution i don`t feel comfortable with, but i don`t get easily scared of new solutions or technology either.
I am a self made man, learned electronics, computers and mechanics on my own, and to a level where i actually get employed by companies, and i`m proud of it.
I`m actually very curious about the GSX-990 Controller, and i will at some time next year incorporate it in my converted BF25 mill.
The VMC300 however is a cute little thing i want to make use of for smaller things, and will most likely run on a network 6 axis controller from Automation Technologies.
As for the ATC, i`m waiting for some pictures from a very helpful guy(The Engine Guy at CNCZone) who has the same machine, and where the ATC is controlled by some PLC.

My reason for this post is to get some feedback from you guys on choice of voltage and noise issues, experience with the 6 axis motion controller boards from Automation Technologies(or others),-
and issues with ATC communication.
I`m very curious with the CSMIO/IP-S and the HiCon Integra Controllers from Automation Technologies, claiming easy integration of Tool Changer.

[Clive S]

-Windows is crappy, PC even a cheap one could become quite expensive when starts to waste your time. Especially if you value it. You need right away to change the disk to a flash drive to avoid reliability problems, reinstall windows and so on,


I know that for a fact, even that i am a Pc geek. What about the people that are not?

Boyan How can you say the above with conviction. Windows is not crappy and you certainly do not require to change the hard drive to a flash drive. Hard drives will run for many years without any problems. Flash drives are new on the block and have not been tested for many years in service as yet. Although I am getting to like them.


at the other hand: etc. We could say the same about the Russians but that would not be fair either:mad:


-if you hire sb from west expect >50-60 per hour for that job. I know at least of a couple of companies that could sell you the controller a bit more expensive but know what they are doing and speak English. So presale questions could be asked and even they could do the heavy lifting with the ATC setup.

If you know where to buy these and get good support why not put links up. Remember this is a forum to help each other not for self gain.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Clive, don't take that so personally please. That's my opinion and i stand behind it. It comes not from browsing internet but from real life. And even so i have nothing to prove to no one. Just sharing, like you say its DIY site, otherwise for that or other info i charge money most of the time.


Boyan How can you say the above with conviction. Windows is not crappy and you certainly do not require to change the hard drive to a flash drive. Hard drives will run for many years without any problems. Flash drives are new on the block and have not been tested for many years in service as yet. Although I am getting to like them.

I spend a couple of years here in Spain repairing PCs as a side job. Number one fault at least 50% in cases=faulty hard drive

cheap PC for garage =old pc= possible near future hard drive fault.

Which by the way is a pain in the a** to prove and find, cause many times sometimes all work, sometimes not.




etc. We could say the same about the Russians but that would not be fair either:mad:

Nope, we can't. I know Russian perfectly, have lived with Russians, done business with them, worked with them and have Russian friends even here. No that could not be said for them or any part of it.

On the other hand i have been to Asia, know some of them already perfectly, lived there. My wife works in a company and is a head of department and solely responsible for dealing with Chinese production, they have office in China, chinese working for them and she goes like 2 times per year in China.

Right now i am also trying to find the manufacturer and supplier of the other board / the cheap one from the other thread/ . Have already a couple of people engaged there.

So i know perfectly well what i am talking about. [/QUOTE]





If you know where to buy these and get good support why not put links up. Remember this is a forum to help each other not for self gain.

Cause they are more expensive than the boards could be found. , did not i say that? Its a diy forum, like you say. Price is first. With simple ali express search one could find who is selling cheaper and who could offer support.

Good support? Thats to be proven. What i said was ask for a support before and after you buy from them. Nobody will give you a support if you don't buy from him. You pay that in the price.

But FYI :
http://www.machine-controller.com/CNC-Controllers_c2
http://www.cncmakers.com/cnc/controllers/CNC_Controllers_for_Milling/

[Clive S]

I spend a couple of years here in Spain repairing PCs as a side job. Number one fault at least 50% in cases=faulty hard drive

cheap PC for garage =old pc= possible near future hard drive fault. Boyan I have a house in Spain for the last 15 years and I know that the electric supply is crap (but is getting better very slowly) that means the electric can go off on a regular basis which is very bad for hard drives as you know. This just does not happen in the UK. I have had hard drives lasting more than 15 years.

You missed the pun about the Russians! I do think that your comments about the Chinese etc. are really not acceptable to me and probably others as well.


Cause they are more expensive than the boards could be found


I was suggesting you put links up for the more expensive ones with good support.:yahoo:

Now this is the Op's thread and we should not hijack it . My opinion is different to your's so I will leave it as is.

[JAZZCNC]

I am not sure about what you say Dean. Part of me agrees, part of me thinks differently. I am not defending anything here, just my cold reasonable thoughts /of a traitor who sometimes out of frustration is secretly working for the enemy :greedy_dollars:/

Not quite sure what your meaning here with words like Traitor.?





This is how i am thinking.I am just proposing.Anyone should decide for himself. Only the facts:

-you can not skip machine setup with either controller

-that mr H. or sb else has made his machine ATC work with Mach3 or 4 is Not = support from sb if you start going the same way. Even if someone that knows will have the desire to help you, these people are busy, so lack of time will make that impossible.

No it doesn't and how can you say that. I've helped many many people and know of others that do all with differing experience levels. Many of them on this forum you included. How the hell did you get started.? ? ? . . . I'll tell you With help from others.


I have still fresh memories about 2x expensive Galil boards in my possession,you know there is a plugin for them and Mach3. Even a support forum. fresh memories come to mind how nobody could help me when help was needed. So- No, don't rely to support or help if doing anything specific.

You bought an out of date controller that wasn't fully supported anymore. It's also controller that is aimed at Professional usage and as such expected the person fitting as required knowledge. So Again it's case or workman blameing the tools.!!


-an expert in Macros will have no problem programming any controller or software and making an ATC work.

Exactly the users isn't an expert and those with the skills don't often give it away for free. So your cheap controller suddenly isn't so cheap or easy.!


-Windows is crappy, PC even a cheap one could become quite expensive when starts to waste your time. Especially if you value it. You need right away to change the disk to a flash drive to avoid reliability problems, reinstall windows and so on,

-exchanging a dead controller is 1/2 hour. changing a PC-combo could take days . I know that for a fact, even that i am a Pc geek. What about the people that are not?

Complete rubbish on both accounts. PC's are very reliable these days and if correctly backed up simple to restore. Also any PC controlling machinery should be dedicated PC and will be minimal re-install if required at all. Also doesn't need to be high end PC when used with decent motion controller so no great expense required.


- i am sure the user database on the Chinese controllers is much bigger in volume than any typical one or even the whole Mach user database. These controllers are sold in the millions and i know that for a fact. Its known for a fact that they are fitted on ATC machines, have seen enough videos on the net and that some companies silently retrofit them here in Europe.

Ok well then go find me somebody who's very competant and willing to freely share there knowledge of these controllers.? The simple truth is you won't or can't because while many maybe fitted to industrial machines they won't give there hard learnt expensively come by knowledge away. Even if they would share it they will charge hefty price for it.


-if you hire sb from west expect >50-60 per hour for that job. I know at least of a couple of companies that could sell you the controller a bit more expensive but know what they are doing and speak English. So presale questions could be asked and even they could do the heavy lifting with the ATC setup.

Yes so do I and sure just about anyone on here could find company to do this but then it's not DIY is it. May have well just gone out and bought machine with controller fitted.
This is like comparing apples with oranges. Completely different things.







at the other hand:

-Chinese are extremely unreliable, cheat like monkeys, haggle like old gypsies and pretend to be dumb like donkeys. Like every other Asian they think they are superior to us - in trade, intelligence and cunning. Its a fact that any Asian is better in trade.

-Chinglish manuals are serious challenge to anyone's intelligence

-Chinese don't care what they sell here, they have enormous market

-Chinese don't have a hacking idea what we need, what functions are needed for DIY machine of any type or for a retrofit.

-Whatever they sell to us they seriously overcharge for it compared to their real price for Chinese market and meanwhile having the self satisfaction that they are hacking us


Sorry Boyan but that's shamefull attitude. It's Disrespectfull and verging on Racist.
I've dealt with Chinise for many years both with CNC and other non CNC related business dealings and can tell you with hand on heart I've never been ripped off by one of them. Which can't say to be true by companys in EU.
I can also say I've never had supplier from Uk or EU send me unrelated gifts they are not trying to sell for free. I've had several such gifts from chinese sellers.!! . . . . Infact I'm drinking one of them Now.

Lets just say we are not going to agree on this one.!! . . I won't be replying to anything you post on this matter, I've said what's needed saying so don't waste your time and lets leave the OP thread alone.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Ok dokey. Will not say a word more here. Was just being helpful and Objective. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Was feeling the need to say my opinion on subject and respond to accusations or misinterpretation of my words, but just while there was somebody to listen to.

[Chaz]

Well, at least the OP now knows all the options ...

Seen your email JazzCNC?

[Proteus]

Chaz. Choose to look at it with a smile :-)
But in all honesty, a simple questions doesn`t require more than a simple answer :highly_amused:

[Proteus]

Ok, so far i have to deside on the following options(all being Nema34 With original gearing ration and belted):
X/Y axis Option 1: KL34H260-42-8A Stepper Motor – 465 oz in 6A With KL-8070D Digital Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver-32 bit DSP from Automation Technologies
X/Y axis Option 2: KL34H260-35-4A Stepper Motor - 465 oz/in 3.5A With KL-8056D Digital Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver-32 bit DSP from Automation Technologies
X/Y axis Option 3: 34HS7840 Stepper Motor - 567oz/in 4A With DM860A Stepper motor driver 7.8A 256micsteps 24~80VDC from longsmotor666 (eBay)

-*-
Z axis option 1 : KL34H295-43-8A Stepper Motor – 906 oz in 6.1A With KL-8070D Digital Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver-32 bit DSP from Automation Technologies
Z axis option 2 : KL34H260-42-8A Stepper Motor – 465 oz in 6A With With KL-8070D Digital Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver-32 bit DSP from Automation Technologies
Z axis option 3 : 34HS9805-37B2CNC Stepper Motor 880oz-in 2A 8wires With DM860A Stepper motor driver 7.8A 256micsteps 24~80VDC from longsmotor666 (eBay)

-*-
A/B 4&5 axis cradle : Belt driven og geared Down Nema 23 465-650 oz/in with KL-8056 or DM860A Drivers that will be decided later.

-*-

Controller Option 1 : CSMIO/IP-S 6 axis Ethernet Motion Controller (STEP/DIR)
Controller Option 2 : C11 – R9.6S751-9 6 axis, Multifunction CNC BoB with Relay and Spindle Control
Controller Option 3 : Suggestions ?

-*-
Considering the old Nema34 steppers delivered (a stunning:hysterical: ) 212,4oz/in, the new steppers will deliver twice as much for X/Y and even mor for the Z axis.
The new drivers will all be compatible with new controllers and Mach3 or 4, deliver a bit more cirrent, AND will have microstep option.

-*-

I have 3 questions i was hoping i could get some quick reply on before i purchase these parts.
1. Will C11 handle 6 (in reality 5) axis at the same time when 3D milling parts on my 4&5th axis cradle considering the BoB itself, and the fact that it utilizes the parallel port?
I mean, the CSMIO/IP-S is NOT cheap(for a good reason) at nearly 5X higher price compared to C11.
However i do want to utilize my ATC in time(which the C11 can`t handle without a PLC). Both will handle my existing DC milling motor and driver

-*-

2. Any good reason why i shouldn`t by from longsmotor on eBay instead of Automation Technologies Inc ?
My brief experience with Automation Technologies is very positive, but my impression is that longsmotor seemingly delivers good quality and service. AND somewhat lower price.

-*-

3. Should i keep my existing 220VAC/60-18-12VAC tranformer or og for a solution with tripple 24V/8.3A Switching CNC Power Supply, or dual 48VDC/12.5A Switching CNC Power Supply.
Have no idea about the Power output from the existing Torodial PS, but if they did the job when constructing the VMC, it should be able to handle the drivers at max 5 Amps.
That should be 60Vac x 5Amp x 3 drivers = 900W +10% = Approx 1000W. Could try loading it to find max current at axeptable voltage drop, but thta would mean a powerful regulator should be used.
Keeping it at 24V with New PSU means lower noise and should perhaps be considered.

-*-

Appreciate swift advice and suggestions gentlemen.

(By the way, old bearly used and functioning electronics and motors will be sold if anybody should be interested).

[Proteus]

Sorry about the messy layouts Gents.
Tryed to get some spacing between the paragraphs, and not quite used to this editor yet.

And i came across the HiCon Integra6 axis Controller afterwards.
Any experience With this one anybody ?

[Colin Barron]

Or you could be our guinea pig and try one of the standalone 3- 4 axis chinese controllers. I will point you from where and which one exactly, if interested. Around 500-600 euro. means 300 euro cheaper than CSMIO and mach4 is another 200. I will buy it off if you are not happy. Just i don't have physical time to do all i want to, and one of these things is test said controller.

It is able to rigid tap and tool change . I am talking about the 980- 990MC , here is the manual (http://www.gsk.com.cn/system/upload/2015109141056.pdf) . Dean said will be testing the 1000 one/numbers dont mean anything, its totally made by another company/ . So meanwhile i could test another one from third company. All of them are similarly priced and look like similar,

I am talking like this one here (https://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/EMS-free-New-Version-English-Panel-shipping-3-Axis-CNC-controller-for-lathe-and-grinding-machine/324577_32262373601.html) / this not the best price i think/ .

I got a price for the gsk980 direct and they wanted £1262 delivered, what is the price of the GSk990. What makes GSK so much better than the £450 controller from cnc workshop on ebay.

[Boyan Silyavski]

I got a price for the gsk980 direct and they wanted £1262 delivered, what is the price of the GSk990. What makes GSK so much better than the £450 controller from cnc workshop on ebay.


All the controllers in Aliexpress are rebadged GSK or a copy of them, not sure which. What did i say about Chinese some posts up, remember? / the near racist ones as Dean said, though it was only observations . Now start to get it?

[Colin Barron]

The price i got was £1262 for the GSK980MDc direct from GSK, the other Newker NEW990TDb was on Ebay £450 ish. Aliexpress appears to be for retail punters while Alibaba appears to be set up more for traders. I found GSK gear only on Alibaba. Of the Chinese controllers GSK appears to be the premier brand for the machine builders. For lathes with automatic tool change GSK980TDb, and milling machines GSK980MDc. I think if i do buy i would be happier buying from the manufacturer. In your experience will they negotiate on price?

[Boyan Silyavski]

The price i got was £1262 for the GSK980MDc direct from GSK, the other Newker NEW990TDb was on Ebay £450 ish. Aliexpress appears to be for retail punters while Alibaba appears to be set up more for traders. I found GSK gear only on Alibaba. Of the Chinese controllers GSK appears to be the premier brand for the machine builders. For lathes with automatic tool change GSK980TDb, and milling machines GSK980MDc. I think if i do buy i would be happier buying from the manufacturer. In your experience will they negotiate on price?

Not for one board. I think would be better to buy it from Newkye. At least we have feedback for them, as John has bought his boards there. And i think they had the cheapest price ? I just checked but their Aliexpress listing has ended. Better ask them directly (http://www.newkye.com/)then, or just check what you are looking to at fleabay isnt actually them.

Make sure you ask for the additional "deconcentrator" board and say to them-" the one with the relays".

[JAZZCNC]

Proteus you need to make it easier for us by giving links not just model numbers. We could search etc but then so easy to be looking at wrong stuff then be at cross purposes. Also me personaly I've not got time to sit searching for you.

Looking at what you wrote then If it's the board I'm thinking then your mistaking what the C11 board does.? It's Just Breakout board and does nothing but route signals along with few relays and spindle control. You'll still need motion control card.
The Cslabs IP-S is everything in one package and much higher quality so can't even be compared.

Provide links and I'll gladly look at these for you but I suggest you back off buying anything until you know what your buying.!

[Proteus]

My apologies Jazzcnc. I assumed most of you guys knew these steppers and drivers already. My fault.
I do know the difference between the C11 and the CSMIO/IP-S. Just tryed to reduce cost. Besides i was curious about your experience with the DM860A drivers
and 34HS9805 steppers from Longs-Motors vs European or US "made" drivers and steppers.(Link below).
Did take a look at the Hicon Integra as well, but i have already decided on the CSMIO/IP-S. It`s more expencive, but it pays off in the long run.
As for drivers, i have 3 KL-8056D drivers in house and will make use of them. As for steppers, i have chosen 3 KL34H260-35-4A.
These are 3,5Amps 465oz.in steppers and 5,6Amp(peak) drivers. Will choose 2(maybe 3) x 24Vdc/8,3Adc Switch mode PSU to keep noise down.
I do beleive i will have a good system with this choice, but please feel free to comment if you see something wierd :-)
Links:
KL-8056D driver: http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/digital-stepper-motor-driver/digital-stepper-driver-kl-8056d-heat-sink-is-included
KL34H260-35-4A stepper: http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/digital-stepper-motor-driver/digital-stepper-driver-kl-8056d-heat-sink-is-included
Hicon Integra: http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/breakout-boards/6-axis-stepdirection-ethernet-motion-controller-industrial
KL-201-24 PSU: http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/switching-power-supply/kl-201-24
DM860A driver: http://www.longs-motor.com/productinfo/detail_12_80_137.aspx
34HS9805 stepper: http://www.longs-motor.com/productinfo/detail_12_25_120.aspx

[Neale]

Only using 24V for those drivers/motors looks like throwing away a lot of performance. Taking it up to 68V or so wouldn't cost much more, if you use a linear power supply instead of switch-mode. Linear supplies generally better for stepper power supplies anyway - handle the pulse peak loads much better. Just a thought - you might have already considered this.

[Clive S]

Did I read that you are using nema 34 motors if so you might want to use much higher voltage drives like mains voltage. As Neale has point out 24V will not do the job for the steppers.

[Proteus]

Actually i considered using the original linear powersupply, but measuring 84VDc across the output makes me uncertain if the drivers can handle it.
They are rated for 20-80 volt.

[Clive S]

Actually i considered using the original linear powersupply, but measuring 84VDc across the output makes me uncertain if the drivers can handle it.
They are rated for 20-80 volt.Well if you want to use nema 34's you might need higher voltage

[Proteus]

Thanx guys for your information :-)
.
Like i said, i`m a newbie on this, and i spent most of my time lately in the evening/night reading myself up on Bob`s, Motion Controllers, drivers and steppers.
Last night i had to tuck myself in bed at 2 o`clock in the night, just before my mains circuit in my head blew :-)
Ok, so i have concluded with the CSMIO/IP-S as my motion controller as it seams to be compatible witch Mach software, and in use by many.
Besides thats the price i have to pay to simplify installation of the original ATC with its sensors and pneumatic valve system.
Listening to you guys, i have choosen to step the voltage up to 72V using the KL-7220 Unregulated Linear 1440W/72VDC/20A Toroidal PSU from Automation Technologies.
(I thought noice was a real issue with CNC machines, and keeping it down to 24Vdc industry standard was considered the way to go?)
Just have to keep noise issues in mind, and shield as much as possible. The cabinet has seperate compartments already, and should help a bit.
As for steppers and drivers, i have decided to use the KL34H280-45-4A NEMA34 640 oz-in 4.5A Stepper Motor, and KL-8056D Digital 2 bit DSP Based - Bipolar Stepper Motor Driver.
Any last minute advice or comments ?
.
Links.
KL34H280-45-4A : http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-34/nema-34-high-torque-stepper-motor-640-oz-in.
KL-5056D : http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/digital-stepper-motor-driver/digital-stepper-driver-kl-5056d-heat-sink-is-included
KL-7220 : http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/torroidal-power-supplies/unregulated-1440w-72vdc20a-120vac-or-230vac
CSMIO/IP-S: http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/produkt-2,2-CSMIOIPS___6_axis_Ethernet_Motion_Controller_STEPD IR_with_connectors.html
.
Will try my best to document the conversion and perhaps help others that might be in a somewhat similar situation.

[Clive S]

(I thought noice was a real issue with CNC machines, and keeping it down to 24Vdc industry standard was considered the way to go?)The 24V you are reading about is generally for the estop, inputs etc. not for driving the motors. A lot of bobs only work with 5V inputs so it is possible to get spikes (noise) that can trigger an input this generally does not happen when using 24V.

[JAZZCNC]

My advise is don't buy any of that lot from Automation or Kelling cnc as it used to be known.? You'll be paying far more than need to for only average components. (the fact your looking here makes me suspect you've been around our american cousins on cnczone.?)

First the Drives are just rebadged cheap chinese drives and for less money you could by Leadshine drives that are much better and higher voltage. Like AM882 or EM806.
Also take note you keep showing links for drives that are only capable of 50Vdc max. Even the higher 8056D can only handle 70Vdc Max which means allowing for safety factor you'll need to run them around 60Vdc.

The PSU is fine (except it's too large for those drives) but you could easily build the same thing for half the price. Very easy to build as many on here will tell you.

The motors are ok but do you really need 34's.? What size machine is it.?

Regards the 24Vdc and noise(EMF) then this is mostly for control circuits. The CSlabs only works with 24Vdc so you'll still need 24 supply but only small 2-3A switch mode affair for e-stop, limits etc.
The higher voltage lowers the chance of EMF affecting signal lines and when used with correct shielded cable you'll have very stable system. Coupled with high quality of Cslabs controller you'll be very noise immune.

[Proteus]

Thanx Jazzcnc for advice and comments :-)
And yes, i am a member of CncZone as well. There are some Norwegian members there, and i like to hear all those different opinions ;-)
.
Ok, it seems i was a bit offline when i replyed to the thread. Mentioned KL-8056D but provided a link to KL-5056D.
I did send Automation a mail last night asking why the they list KL-8056D for "up to +7Vdc", when the datasheet say +20 to +80Vdc.
If what i have read around is correct, the KL-8056D is a re-badged Leadshine DM870. And Leadshine says +20 to +72Vdc in their datasheet(found that out today)
Dissapointing and very confusing, but this fact eliminates the KL-8056D.
-
Tried to find a price for the AM882 and EM806 and they don`t come cheap. Found some new AM882 at a reasonable price though and may decide on them.
What about the MA860H? Does anybody have any experience with the MA860H ?
Leadshine datasheet says input voltage of max 80Vac or +110Vdc, 7,2A. Price 58,88 on steppers-online.
.
I do have a lot of experience with PSU(both switched and lineary) Jazzcnc, and having a larger than necessary PSU only ensure less voltage drop at high loads.
Besides i want to have enough for the 4th axis.(might even put in the 5th axis in time if i get if i get excessively geeky :hysterical: ).
And beleive me Jazzcnc, i have searched the entire Norweginan marked for parts to build it my self. That will cost me twice as much.
.
The reason for me choosing Nema34 motors is only because it has Nema34 motors originally. (Lacy me, don`t have to manufacture new mounting brackets)
.
Final thoughts with renewed thanx to good advice from Jazzcnc:
Stepper drivers.
AM882 or MA860H(Havent decided yet.
http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products&category=stepper-products&producttype=stepper-drives&series=AM&model=AM882
http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products&category=stepper-products&producttype=stepper-drives&series=M&model=MA860H
Stepper motors.
KL34H280-45-4A or 34HS38-3008S(Havent decided yet, and yes).
http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-34/nema-34-high-torque-stepper-motor-640-oz-in
http://www.omc-stepperonline.com/nema-34-cnc-stepper-motor-5nm708ozin-30a-34hs383008s-p-32.html
.
Motion COntroller and PSU will still be CSMIO/IP-S and KL-7220.
.
I do beleive this should summarize a good setup, unless there is something i don`t see(again)
.
And again, thanx for advice and comments gents :thumsup:

[JAZZCNC]

Ok first lets drop the Jazzcnc just call me Dean others do and I don't mind.


Thanx Jazzcnc for advice and comments :-)
And yes, i am a member of CncZone as well. There are some Norwegian members there, and i like to hear all those different opinions ;-)

Nothing wrong with the Zone just little unwieldy and state biased.!
.

I did send Automation a mail last night asking why the they list KL-8056D for "up to +7Vdc", when the datasheet say +20 to +80Vdc.
If what i have read around is correct, the KL-8056D is a re-badged Leadshine DM870. And Leadshine says +20 to +72Vdc in their datasheet(found that out today)
Dissapointing and very confusing, but this fact eliminates the KL-8056D.

Exactly why shouldn't rush onto buying before doing the home work. Very easy to buy wrong stuff.
-

What about the MA860H? Does anybody have any experience with the MA860H ?
Leadshine datasheet says input voltage of max 80Vac or +110Vdc, 7,2A. Price 58,88 on steppers-online.

These are Analog drives not digital. Analog is Old tech best avoided and don't compare to good digital drive.

If you want AC Digital drives then there's model AM882-H
.

I do have a lot of experience with PSU(both switched and lineary) Jazzcnc, and having a larger than necessary PSU only ensure less voltage drop at high loads.
Besides i want to have enough for the 4th axis.(might even put in the 5th axis in time if i get if i get excessively geeky :hysterical: ).
And beleive me Jazzcnc, i have searched the entire Norweginan marked for parts to build it my self. That will cost me twice as much.

You can't have voltage higher than than drives Max else you'll blow the drives up. infact you don't want the voltage near the drives Max you want it approx 10% less.
Now Current is different matter and I was talking about voltage.!

I'm very surprised you can't find toridal Transformer and 3 x capacitors cheaper than $200.!!
.

The reason for me choosing Nema34 motors is only because it has Nema34 motors originally. (Lacy me, don`t have to manufacture new mounting brackets)

No better reason required.!
.

[Proteus]

Ok first lets drop the Jazzcnc just call me Dean others do and I don't mind.

Ok Dean :-)
.

Nothing wrong with the Zone just little unwieldy and state biased.!
.
Will not contradict you on that :untroubled:
.

Exactly why shouldn't rush onto buying before doing the home work. Very easy to buy wrong stuff.
-
No, i usually dont rush. In fact i spend a lot of hours on net trying to most cost effective solution.
(Ok, that is when I do not get too excited and impatient :witless: )
.

These are Analog drives not digital. Analog is Old tech best avoided and don't compare to good digital drive.

If you want AC Digital drives then there's model AM882-H
.
I bought some Leadshine AM882 Digital Drives on eBay today. AND I`m very satified and can`t wait to get them in here.
.

You can't have voltage higher than than drives Max else you'll blow the drives up. infact you don't want the voltage near the drives Max you want it approx 10% less.
Now Current is different matter and I was talking about voltage.!
.
I guess i misunderstood i that case, cause i thought you refered to the current.
Well, looking at the purchase order today, i made a final descision on the 60V/20A Linear PSU.
I think that will do the job since i`m not going for any monstrous speeds on this mill.
I calculated speed to approx 10.8 rev/sec based on the KL34H280-45-8A motor with 60V, 6.3A(Parallel) and 2.2mH phase inductance.
If i should choose to wire the motor i series i will get approx 5.33 Revs/sec at 60V, 3.2Amps and 8.8mH.
Not sure what the leadscrew ratio is though(dont remember the inch/turn), but i think both is sufficient for my use.
.

I'm very surprised you can't find toridal Transformer and 3 x capacitors cheaper than $200.!!
.
Nope.. When CNC stuff and Electronics find it`s way to Norway, some People and Companies tends to think this is gold :thumbdown:

No better reason required.!
.
.
Will be setting up a multichannel(24) National Instruments DAQ/ADC system analyzing the signals when i run the tool change.
That should give me a "time map" for all signals initiated with mS or even uS timing, and compare it to the schematics of the system.
Which again would give me insight to compare it to all the options with the CSMIO/IP-S unit.
Talked to Rob(The Engine Guy) at the Zone who bought a VMC300, and the guy owning it before him used a Koyo Direct Logic PLC to program and run the ATC.
That makes me wonder if i shouldn`t be able to do the same with the CSMIO/IP-S. And even with Mach compatibility.
Will start to tear down all the old electronics after taht, prepping the VMC for new shiny parts. Can`t wait :-)

[Boyan Silyavski]

.

Talked to Rob(The Engine Guy) at the Zone who bought a VMC300, and the guy owning it before him used a Koyo Direct Logic PLC to program and run the ATC.



How will that work? Program the PLC hardware so -pause, it does its job and then program continues?

[JAZZCNC]

How will that work? Program the PLC hardware so -pause, it does its job and then program continues?

Yes works exactly like this.

M6 in G-code tells mach to turn on output #? and wait until input #? goes high or low then carry on with Job. The PLC is programmed to do the tool change when it sees Mach's output on it's input. Then when finished turn on it's Output which mach see's on it's Input. The shows goes on.!

Common for ATC's to use PLC for tool change. That said for ATC's which don't require massive amounts of I/O Macro works just as well. The Cslabs as plenty of I/O and don't think this ATC needs lots of I/O so don't see the point my self.

I think the guy who used the PLC will have done so because he didn't have enough I/O. This is one reason why the Cslabs are so good for retrofits because they come with plenty of I/O and can easily be increased without costing the earth.

[JoeHarris]

.
Will be setting up a multichannel(24) National Instruments DAQ/ADC system analyzing the signals when i run the tool change.
That should give me a "time map" for all signals initiated with mS or even uS timing, and compare it to the schematics of the system.
Which again would give me insight to compare it to all the options with the CSMIO/IP-S unit.
Talked to Rob(The Engine Guy) at the Zone who bought a VMC300, and the guy owning it before him used a Koyo Direct Logic PLC to program and run the ATC.
That makes me wonder if i shouldn`t be able to do the same with the CSMIO/IP-S. And even with Mach compatibility.
Will start to tear down all the old electronics after taht, prepping the VMC for new shiny parts. Can`t wait :-)

I've been on this site for 4+ years now and that post means jack all to me!!! Going back to a conversation a few posts back - help from people on this site has been invaluable, do your homework and ask lots of questions before spending your money! Also if you are planning on buying an csmio ips - twinning it with some lame analogue drives which were outmoded 5 years ago seems mad for the sake of ~ £50 more for em806

[JoeHarris]

Also, my experience of buying from China has been pretty good so far too. Like anywhere there are good and bad sellers.

[Proteus]

Can't say i understood that comment JoeHarris.
Just trying to figure out the ATC myself. I had a lot of help with some of my questions in this forum, but as a newbie i feel like understanding the functions myself as well.

Besides, if you read my post to Dean you would know i bought the AM882 ;-)

[JoeHarris]

Can't say i understood that comment JoeHarris.
Just trying to figure out the ATC myself. I had a lot of help with some of my questions in this forum, but as a newbie i feel like understanding the functions myself as well.

Besides, if you read my post to Dean you would know i bought the AM882 ;-)

It was only a comment on my ignorance! Good choice on the drive btw

[Proteus]

You might not have any experience with Adc/Daq measurement technique, but i suspect you have a solid experience in a number of other things ;-)
.
Yes, i'm quite satisfied with my choice. But is was baser on a lot of help from you guys :-)

[Boyan Silyavski]

Yes works exactly like this.

M6 in G-code tells mach to turn on output #? and wait until input #? goes high or low then carry on with Job. The PLC is programmed to do the tool change when it sees Mach's output on it's input. Then when finished turn on it's Output which mach see's on it's Input. The shows goes on.!

Common for ATC's to use PLC for tool change. That said for ATC's which don't require massive amounts of I/O Macro works just as well. The Cslabs as plenty of I/O and don't think this ATC needs lots of I/O so don't see the point my self.

I think the guy who used the PLC will have done so because he didn't have enough I/O. This is one reason why the Cslabs are so good for retrofits because they come with plenty of I/O and can easily be increased without costing the earth.

Wait, i just checked the price of said PLC is just 125$. And has additional IO boards for 45$. Even a motion controller 250 khz for 100$ more. So it seems for less than 300$ one could combine the cheapest Chinese controller i was testing with that PLC and retrofit a mill with ATC! That is great to know.
By the way i found the way to stop and tool change in that controller

[Proteus]

Go for it then Boyan 😉

[JoeHarris]

Go for it then Boyan [emoji6]

Senior Guinea Pig!

[m_c]

What PLC are you looking at Boyan?
.
Sometimes you have to use a PLC, and other times it just makes life a bit easier.
Mach 3 only has a 10Hz refresh rate for Macros, which means any sort of ATC with critical timing can't be done directly. I used a PLC for the turret on my lathe, as the locking mechanism timing needs less than 50ms between sensing an input change and an output being activated, which wouldn't be possible with a Mach 3 macro.
Mach 4 does have a faster refresh rate, but I'm not sure how fast it can react.
.
However most ATCs on a Mill aren't that time critical. It's a just a relatively simple process cycle, with the biggest problem likely to be how long it takes. It's just a case of working out the required sequence of sensors and outputs.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Go for it then Boyan 

I was just thinking aloud.

I know you have already made a decision.


Senior Guinea Pig!

Is this some kind of British sense of humour or a lack of one?


What PLC are you looking at Boyan?

The one (https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Programmable_Controllers/DirectLogic_Series_PLCs_(Micro_to_Small,_Brick_-a-_Modular)/DirectLogic_05_(Micro_Brick_PLC)) he mentioned above in the thread

[JoeHarris]

I was just thinking aloud.

I know you have already made a decision.



Is this some kind of British sense of humour or a lack of one?



The one (https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Programmable_Controllers/DirectLogic_Series_PLCs_(Micro_to_Small,_Brick_-a-_Modular)/DirectLogic_05_(Micro_Brick_PLC)) he mentioned above in the thread

No offence intended, yes blame the British sense of humour!

[m_c]

Is this some kind of British sense of humour or a lack of one?

Humour. Guinea Pig = slang for tester.


The one (https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Programmable_Controllers/DirectLogic_Series_PLCs_(Micro_to_Small,_Brick_-a-_Modular)/DirectLogic_05_(Micro_Brick_PLC)) he mentioned above in the thread

I thought I'd missed a link.
Other option is their range of Click PLCs, which are cheaper, but are a bit more limited in terms of supply voltages, but the programming software is completely free (I see the DL05 software is limited to 100 words).