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View Full Version : WANTED: Denford Triac Euro Card, 2.1 Eprom or USB Rack card



Sooty
13-12-2016, 09:08 AM
Any one have old triac vmc parts lying around? i need a eurocard with a 2.1 eprom on it to get my vmc up and running. if someone has the USB variant i would also be interested.

if someone has a 2.1 eprom or an old denstep card i may also be interested.

Thanks!

Chaz
13-12-2016, 09:09 AM
Any one have old triac vmc parts lying around? i need a eurocard with a 2.1 eprom on it to get my vmc up and running. if someone has the USB variant i would also be interested.

if someone has a 2.1 eprom or an old denstep card i may also be interested.

Thanks!

Ive got some stuff from my Triac VMC but need to dig it out. Where are you based? Im in Ickenham (Middlesex), you are welcome to come take a look at what bits I have.

Sooty
13-12-2016, 09:22 AM
I am slightly further away up near Edinburgh. If you could have a look it would be appreciated, never know whats hiding in peoples garages/ workshops

Chaz
13-12-2016, 09:24 AM
I am slightly further away up near Edinburgh. If you could have a look it would be appreciated, never know whats hiding in peoples garages/ workshops

Well, its all the cards that came from my VMC when I removed the electronics. I dont know the specifics of what you need, some pics will be useful and Ill take a look by the weekend.

Sooty
13-12-2016, 09:27 AM
Sounds good to me, much appreciated.

Chris

Chaz
13-12-2016, 09:31 AM
Sounds good to me, much appreciated.

Chris

Do you have pics of the specific cards you are looking for?

Sooty
13-12-2016, 09:42 AM
dont have any on me just now but its the one with the little segmented display. i may be interested in the other cards as spares for my machine but if you coupd pop a photo up i can tell you what they are.

Ill try to get a photo up today

m_c
13-12-2016, 01:17 PM
I've got a complete rack from a 90s VMC sat on the workshop floor just now, and I'm near Edinburgh. It's got a Mint V3.28 eeprom in it.

19990
19991

Sooty
13-12-2016, 01:35 PM
damn, that is the same DOS eprom i have already. Trying to get it working on VR5 in order to retain the atc operation. Out of curiosity have you converted your VMC to Mach with a tool changer? What are you looking for the parts?

m_c
13-12-2016, 05:46 PM
I thought VR5 had the option to use legacy machines, or does it require the later EEPROM?

Just had a quick look, and it looks like you'll need to configure the machine settings once you've selected the Triac Denstep option. By default, most of the options are not enabled, so you'll need to enable everything that's applicable.

I'm converting mine to Dynomotion's KMotionCNC. As it stands, I need to finish wiring in the tool changer solenoids/sensors, write the required code to make it work, and then do something about making a new control panel. There is a thread on here about it, but I've had a couple other jobs I had to get done, so it's not been updated for a couple weeks.
I'd only be looking for some beer tokens for the old bits. If nobody wants the bits by the time I get the machine fully running, they'll be going in the bin, as I'm trying to avoid gathering piles of obsolete parts.

Sooty
13-12-2016, 05:56 PM
It can support the legacy machines but the DOS EEPROMS are below the threshold. The 2.1 EEPROM should will work with the existing card, the L on card seems to mean a coms problem but i cant for the life of me find out what it is! Beer tokens it is, i am determined to make VR Work for me in the short term.. what the value of beer tokens these days lol!

Cant say i have heard of the Dynomotion's KMotionCNC, do they offer a hardware package?

If i have to go down the conversion route i can see me using a pneumatic button release on the drawbar until i figure out the magic of the ATC.

m_c
14-12-2016, 12:04 AM
I've just seen your posts over on the Denford forum. I wonder if Denford still have the file for programming the EEPROM, and if they'd be willing to make it public. I'm sure I've read somewhere they no longer have the ability to program them themselves, but I'm sure somebody with a suitable programmer could be found, although new chips may be a problem...

KMotionCNC requires a KFlop, which is Dynomotion's motion controller. I'd like to say retrofitting a Denford was straight forward, but it gets quite involved depending on what you want to achieve.
Once I get mine up and running, you'd be more than welcome to visit.

Sooty
14-12-2016, 09:11 AM
I can see ways of copying the EEPROMS with a USB device but its hard to tell if mine will be any good for that purpose. Denford wont release it as long as they can sell people USB upgrades as an alternative.

Will need to look into the KFlop vs Smooth Stepper posts. Is there a uk supplier of the KFlop?

I have converted a few denford machines (in the easy way) but the triac will be a different beastie with the atc. i will probably need to use an ethernet controller with all the inputs that will be required for the ATC, my normal breakout boards dont have nearly enough. Have wanted to get one for a while but cant justify the spend at the moment.

Chaz
14-12-2016, 10:16 AM
I can see ways of copying the EEPROMS with a USB device but its hard to tell if mine will be any good for that purpose. Denford wont release it as long as they can sell people USB upgrades as an alternative.

Will need to look into the KFlop vs Smooth Stepper posts. Is there a uk supplier of the KFlop?

I have converted a few denford machines (in the easy way) but the triac will be a different beastie with the atc. i will probably need to use an ethernet controller with all the inputs that will be required for the ATC, my normal breakout boards dont have nearly enough. Have wanted to get one for a while but cant justify the spend at the moment.

Just get a CS Labs IP-S or A device and be done with it. That is what I did.

Sooty
14-12-2016, 10:19 AM
Lol, if i could aford that option id already be on it after reading your thread. I bought my triac after reading it! moving that thing off a luton was a nightmare!!

Chaz
14-12-2016, 10:30 AM
Lol, if i could aford that option id already be on it after reading your thread. I bought my triac after reading it! moving that thing off a luton was a nightmare!!

Ah cool. Wasnt sure if you had seen the thread. Good learnings from that.

My machine today is basically nothing like before. It has the same hardware and uses some of the power / switch gear but other than that, is very different (for the better). To replace it with a newer version will be 10K+.

Sooty
14-12-2016, 10:33 AM
10+k for the whole machine or just the controls ??

Chaz
14-12-2016, 11:10 AM
10+k for the whole machine or just the controls ??

Sorry, I meant the cost if I was going to replace the machine with something similar in the market today. You would be looking at a Chinese Syil or similar. 8 ATC, Flood Coolant, Servos for X Y Z and spindle AC Servo etc with MPG (not wired in yet). To replace the machine would not be cheap I think.

Plus, you can see how rarely these come up and how quickly they are bought. I will sell this once my new machine is built but if I have space I may chose to keep it longer term, very capable little machines.

Sooty
14-12-2016, 11:14 AM
ahh, indeed. Always liked the Tormach Machines myself, think emvio eng (uk) will be offering something next year as well with an atc.

you have a second traic now or is your new machine something different?

Chaz
14-12-2016, 11:17 AM
ahh, indeed. Always liked the Tormach Machines myself, think emvio eng (uk) will be offering something next year as well with an atc.

you have a second traic now or is your new machine something different?

This is what I am building. Very slow progress but getting there.

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/9616-Thor-or-should-that-be-Zeus?highlight=thor

Tormach, certainly an option although they are far east produced with an element of QC that makes them worth considering.

Any more details on the Emvio machine?

m_c
14-12-2016, 05:03 PM
I have converted a few denford machines (in the easy way) but the triac will be a different beastie with the atc. i will probably need to use an ethernet controller with all the inputs that will be required for the ATC, my normal breakout boards dont have nearly enough. Have wanted to get one for a while but cant justify the spend at the moment.

The ATC isn't that much of a problem. At the basic level, it's just 4 inputs and 3 outputs.
The far bigger problem are the home sensors, as for most controllers you need to change them to newer NPN/PNP type, but I'm sure if you know a bit electronics, you could make up an interface board to convert the NAMUR signal to something more usable.
Plus you need a controller capable of handling the 24V logic, unless you want to drop all the controls to 5V (I really wouldn't recommend that option!).
And just for good measure the carousel index sensor is 5V (I swapped mine to a 24V version).

Chaz
14-12-2016, 05:08 PM
The ATC isn't that much of a problem. At the basic level, it's just 4 inputs and 3 outputs.
The far bigger problem are the home sensors, as for most controllers you need to change them to newer NPN/PNP type, but I'm sure if you know a bit electronics, you could make up an interface board to convert the NAMUR signal to something more usable.
Plus you need a controller capable of handling the 24V logic, unless you want to drop all the controls to 5V (I really wouldn't recommend that option!).
And just for good measure the carousel index sensor is 5V (I swapped mine to a 24V version).

My contacts are all normal mechanical ones, I wonder why they are different.

For my ATC, I dont count anything. I worked out that 1 revolution of the wheel takes exactly 1 second, so I just pulse as long as is needed. Not perfect but its never let me down.

Sooty
14-12-2016, 05:11 PM
i am not quite that far into my learning but i gather you are talking about proximity sensors and not the microswitches the atc is currently using? Is the servo and Stepper version different? i have the stepper version.

I havent looked into the carousel system, does that use an inductive style switch?

Chaz
14-12-2016, 05:15 PM
i am not quite that far into my learning but i gather you are talking about proximity sensors and not the microswitches the atc is currently using? Is the servo and Stepper version different? i have the stepper version.

I havent looked into the carousel system, does that use an inductive style switch?

Sorry, yes, my limit switches for X Y Z are all mechnical type. The same for the ATC movement in and out. What is inductive (ive not been able to get it to work) is the counting element of the ATC carousel itself.

m_c
14-12-2016, 05:24 PM
The limits are mechanical, but all the home sensors are a NAMUR type. The current Denford guys have no idea why NAMUR output sensors were used. They would of made sense to somebody at the time, but they also used a very compact size, which are expensive to replace.

Chaz, what sensors do you use to home your machine?

Chaz
14-12-2016, 05:33 PM
The limits are mechanical, but all the home sensors are a NAMUR type. The current Denford guys have no idea why NAMUR output sensors were used. They would of made sense to somebody at the time, but they also used a very compact size, which are expensive to replace.

Chaz, what sensors do you use to home your machine?

Mine has normal plunge type mechanical ones. Normal electrical contacts, NC etc. Nothing fancy.

Sooty
15-12-2016, 08:54 AM
looks like i have the same mechanical switches. possibly the difference in year of manufacture?

m_c
15-12-2016, 10:04 PM
I'm going to guess that because Chaz's is a (later?) servo machine, with what would of been a pretty much totally different controller, they used different switches.

Sooty, are you sure there's not proximity sensors?
On the X, you have to either remove the front panel of the table, or unbolt the switch mounting panel from the cross slide, and the home sensor is at the right hand end of the panel.
On the Y, you have to move the table pretty much fully back, and if you lift the bellows, the prox sensor is at near the front right corner pointing straight up.
On the Z, you have to fully lower the head/spindle, and with the motor cover removed, the prox sensor is mounted inwards of the right dovetail, and should be visible just above the head/spindle casting.

The carousel has a single inductive sensor that pulses on each rotation of the Geneva mechanism, which has to rotate twice to move between tools. This is probably the most problematic part of the ATC, as you need some form of verification that the correct tool position is set on initial power up, and if the tool is currently in the spindle or not. Mach does have the option of persistent DROs, but I've got an absolute encoder which I'm going to add so I don't need to manually check tool numbers.

Chaz
16-12-2016, 11:08 AM
I'm going to guess that because Chaz's is a (later?) servo machine, with what would of been a pretty much totally different controller, they used different switches.

Sooty, are you sure there's not proximity sensors?
On the X, you have to either remove the front panel of the table, or unbolt the switch mounting panel from the cross slide, and the home sensor is at the right hand end of the panel.
On the Y, you have to move the table pretty much fully back, and if you lift the bellows, the prox sensor is at near the front right corner pointing straight up.
On the Z, you have to fully lower the head/spindle, and with the motor cover removed, the prox sensor is mounted inwards of the right dovetail, and should be visible just above the head/spindle casting.

The carousel has a single inductive sensor that pulses on each rotation of the Geneva mechanism, which has to rotate twice to move between tools. This is probably the most problematic part of the ATC, as you need some form of verification that the correct tool position is set on initial power up, and if the tool is currently in the spindle or not. Mach does have the option of persistent DROs, but I've got an absolute encoder which I'm going to add so I don't need to manually check tool numbers.

I find its fairly easy to just update mach 3 with correct tool at the start. Not sure how you would code around that issue. Suppose it could be done but a pain.

m_c
16-12-2016, 04:53 PM
I find its fairly easy to just update mach 3 with correct tool at the start. Not sure how you would code around that issue. Suppose it could be done but a pain.

I've been spoiled by my lathe though, I turn it on, hit Init and Home, and it's good to run. I'm aiming to achieve the same with the mill.

It's running the extra wires that's going to be the hard part, as I'd like to keep everything pluggable. My current plan is to use the original display/control panel cable/connector shell, but I need to go through the Harting catalogue to see if that will be doable with their modular options to squeeze more terminals in the connector.

i2i
19-12-2016, 10:51 PM
Ah cool. Wasnt sure if you had seen the thread. Good learnings from that.

My machine today is basically nothing like before. It has the same hardware and uses some of the power / switch gear but other than that, is very different (for the better). To replace it with a newer version will be 10K+.

Glad to see you got it finished

Chaz
19-12-2016, 11:12 PM
Glad to see you got it finished

Ye, I need to tidy some wiring but thanks to you and many others on this forum for the advice.

Sooty
29-07-2017, 10:52 AM
Still looking for a is card if anyone has one??

Chaz
28-08-2017, 04:50 PM
So I finally dug mine out, pics to come. c3MINT2.53d/STE/KC12-JD7 .

Chaz
28-08-2017, 04:54 PM
22688

Chaz
05-09-2017, 11:28 AM
Bump before I bin this stuff .....