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View Full Version : Using a metal cutting burr with a router...?



noyloj
05-01-2017, 10:52 PM
Hi

I'm looking at ways to mill a groove in the saddle of my WARCO WM16 Milling machine in order to make a bit more clearance for the x axis leadscrew... Does anyone know if this might be possible with a router and metal cutting burr at the lowest RPM setting and plenty of suds?

If no-one knows then I guess I'll just give it a try on something non-critical...

Thanks Jo

noyloj
08-01-2017, 02:39 PM
Bump...

Did no-one try this? I admit it sound a little bonkers... but I thought that if I use a grinder to remove the majority of the material I could use a grinding burr to finish up...

njhussey
08-01-2017, 03:30 PM
You could use an angle grinder to get the bulk of it out and then use a hand router with a carbide milling cutter in it to get it nice and flat? You can use a CNC router to cut Cast Iron (others on here have done it, I've even cut steel with mine.....slowly!) so no reason (apart from being scary and having lots of scalding metal chips flying around!) why you couldn't.

mekanik
08-01-2017, 04:15 PM
Hi Jo
As Neil said a rotary burr will do the job, my only experience is using them in a die grinder on steel, throws out nasty needles that get everywhere, cast iron should come off more like powder, make sure you have a good quality mask and adequate eye protection, it's nasty if you get it in the eyes.
Good Luck
Mike

noyloj
08-01-2017, 04:19 PM
Thanks guys!

Yes that's exactly what I had in mind!

I used to have a Dremel which I might have used to finish up with but I gave it away to my daughter who carves wax for lost wax jewelry castings with it now...

I'll let you know how I get on and post it up in my build log.

noyloj
08-01-2017, 04:21 PM
Oops, forgot to ask is there any particular kind of burr/cutter I should be looking at using?

And do I need lubrication?

Thanks

mekanik
08-01-2017, 04:25 PM
Don't know if a Dremel would be upto the job anyway, we used 6mm shank burr.
Mike

mekanik
08-01-2017, 04:42 PM
Should be ok cutting dry, will tend to clog if you use something oil based.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10pcs-6mm-Tungsten-Head-Carbide-Burrs-For-Rotary-Drill-Die

noyloj
08-01-2017, 04:44 PM
Groovy! Thanks!

JAZZCNC
08-01-2017, 10:28 PM
I'm looking at ways to mill a groove in the saddle of my WARCO WM16 Milling machine in order to make a bit more clearance for the x axis leadscrew...

Now your going to find out why being arrogant Knob isn't clever idea because could warn you about what your about to do.!! . . . . . But won't because you won't listen.:hopelessness:

magicniner
08-01-2017, 11:27 PM
But Jazz, surely you can always buy new parts afterwards? ;-)

noyloj
08-01-2017, 11:29 PM
I will consider all my options before I cut the saddle! There really is no need to be so abusive.

noyloj
08-01-2017, 11:37 PM
Now your going to find out why being arrogant Knob isn't clever idea because could warn you about what your about to do.!! . . . . . But won't because you won't listen.:hopelessness:

That's just the kind of advice I need! I don't know why you bothered to write anything! It is a complete failure of logic to imagine that just because I want to use Nema34 motors that I got cheap that I somehow am incapable of hearing anything else. It's depressing.

noyloj
08-01-2017, 11:38 PM
Now I'm totally confused! Is it technically possible or not? Hahhahah!

JAZZCNC
09-01-2017, 12:08 AM
That's just the kind of advice I need! I don't know why you bothered to write anything! It is a complete failure of logic to imagine that just because I want to use Nema34 motors that I got cheap that I somehow am incapable of hearing anything else. It's depressing.

Got nothing to do with if you use motors or not, I couldn't give flying fuck if honest. But it does have everything to do that maybe you should consider the manner of your replys to people who are only trying to help or have your best interest in mind.! . . . . . Because one day all there experience may just provide the answer or advise that will save you 100's but they think Bolloxs to you Captain Klingon Knob.!!

Now just to show I'm not total Twat you think I am then be aware that those tables/saddles are like Golf balls.? Cut into them too much and they release tension like women with bad PMT..!! . . . Be afraid very Afraid.

John S
09-01-2017, 12:35 AM
Do you know why it's called PMT ?



Mad Cow Disease was already taken.......................

Boyan Silyavski
09-01-2017, 03:30 PM
That's just the kind of advice I need! I don't know why you bothered to write anything! It is a complete failure of logic to imagine that just because I want to use Nema34 motors that I got cheap that I somehow am incapable of hearing anything else. It's depressing.

Obviously he is warning you and again giving you a free advice. But it seems you are from the people that think that if 34 is bigger than 23 is better, stronger and faster. Are you by chance an American? :cat:

If you ask in forums then listen to the experience. If you know better, then why you are asking?

noyloj
09-01-2017, 04:00 PM
Got nothing to do with if you use motors or not, I couldn't give flying fuck if honest. But it does have everything to do that maybe you should consider the manner of your replys to people who are only trying to help or have your best interest in mind.! . . . . . Because one day all there experience may just provide the answer or advise that will save you 100's but they think Bolloxs to you Captain Klingon Knob.!!

I really am sorry that you found my replies in the build log dismissive and impolite. I can assure you I did not mean to come over that way. Sometimes my mode of discussion is a little, shall we say challenging! But it's meant in good humour and despite what you may think I have taken on board everything that has been said.

Genuinely thanks for the advice as regards the latent forces in the table, I will not cut it at all if I can get away with it! And if I do so I will only remove the minimum especially so in light of your observations.

I incidentally have never cut into a golf ball... Although I have sliced up a few women with PMT...

komatias
09-01-2017, 04:01 PM
Machining the castings is somewhat irreversible since the parts are hand finished to fit. You can just buy a saddle but you will need to get it reground and fitted which, unless you have all the equipment to do, is rather expensive.

Most cheap chinese castings are not stress releived, as Jazz has pointed out. That means if you take a cut on the parts, you are heading for trouble fast. I know....been there and had to learn to scrape.

That is why I am spending on custom parts, so people will not need to machine anything.

Now can we all just make up and get on with CNC talk?

njhussey
09-01-2017, 04:02 PM
Slicing into a golf ball is (well was 25 yrs ago) good fun if you get an old rubber wound one.....new composite ones are boring....😁

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

noyloj
09-01-2017, 04:20 PM
If you ask in forums then listen to the experience. If you know better, then why you are asking?

I didn't ask in the forums. AND I never said I knew better! AND I'm not American!

Clive S
09-01-2017, 04:54 PM
I really am sorry that you found my replies in the build log dismissive and impolite. I can assure you I did not mean to come over that way. Sometimes my mode of discussion is a little, shall we say challenging! But it's meant in good humour and despite what you may think I have taken on board everything that has been said.

Ok seeing that you are not so abrasive.

I cut a slot in my table about 4mm deep 20311

20312
and the table twisted by about 2mm:dread: with the stress being relieved then I had to take it to engineering place to have it trued up and the top skimmed.

So beware as I did not expect that to happen.

noyloj
09-01-2017, 05:16 PM
I cut a slot in my table about 4mm deep

and the table twisted by about 2mm:dread: with the stress being relieved then I had to take it to engineering place to have it trued up and the top skimmed.

So beware as I did not expect that to happen.

Yes 3-4mm was about what I'd imagined, I would have though that would be safe!.. bugger for your table what a pain!

It's a crazy thought probably but what if I was to try and relieve the stress before milling out the groove?

noyloj
09-01-2017, 05:28 PM
Slicing into a golf ball is (well was 25 yrs ago) good fun if you get an old rubber wound one.....new composite ones are boring....��

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the link to your steel frame router log... it's next on my list!

noyloj
09-01-2017, 08:29 PM
Ok seeing that you are not so abrasive.

I cut a slot in my table about 4mm deep 20311

20312
and the table twisted by about 2mm:dread: with the stress being relieved then I had to take it to engineering place to have it trued up and the top skimmed.

So beware as I did not expect that to happen.

Perhaps this resource could be useful...

STRESS RELIEF OF GRAY CAST IRON


dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD0620556 PDF file


I don't know how to insert links so go easy on me....

mekanik
09-01-2017, 09:08 PM
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/620556.pdf

noyloj
09-01-2017, 09:14 PM
Yes that's the kiddy!

Probably not the right place to ask but...

1. is that the same link?

2. how did you post it?

3. how do I add attachments and photos?

John S
09-01-2017, 09:26 PM
Warco WM14 you can usually get away without having to machine the underside of the table.

Warco WM16 is borderline some clear, some don't.

Warco WM18 you always have to machine the table.

The problem comes about from droop when casting as they are cast top up.
The longer the table, the slower it cools and gives rise to the middle dropping down under the weight of the metal.

There are ways when casting to prevent this but seeing as it's not their remit to make sure they can convert to CNC then they don't bother.
There is enough standard clearance for the manual ACME screws.

noyloj
09-01-2017, 09:40 PM
Warco WM14 you can usually get away without having to machine the underside of the table.

Warco WM16 is borderline some clear, some don't.

So maybe no machining needed...

....wouldn't it be simpler/safer if necessary to mill the groove in the saddle and drop the x axis screw supports by slotting the mounting holes to get upwards/ downwards clearance? Or is this not possible for some reason I can't see. (I'm working off a plan at the moment my mill should be here next week according to Warco.)

Perhaps simpler to remake the x axis ballscrew supports with lowered bearing housings and at the same time incorporate motor mounts or standoffs...

noyloj
09-01-2017, 10:16 PM
And thinking about the metal de stressing it is probably quite as likely to give rise to deformation as cutting unless some way could be figured to hold the casting in shape whilst heating/cooling... beyond my home scope I think...

Edward
09-01-2017, 10:45 PM
In my case, a Sieg2.7 probably about the same size as yours I think, I machined the top of the ballnut flange a little , about 2.5mm, so I could still use the two top side holes of the flange, and this allowed the ballnut to fit under the table, so the table didn't need any machining at all. Then I had to machine the end side of the saddle (that's where the ballnut housing goes in my machine, I think yours may be in a different place) I just ground a little crescent concavity for the bottom of the ballnut to sit on.

After doing that, the ballscrew had a clearance of about 2mm from the saddle, but unfortunatelly at the other end of the saddle, the clearance gradually diminished as the casting was irregular, not level. So I just had to groove that end a little to allow the ballscrew to clear by about 1 mm.

When fitting the end plates, I found that the existing threads at both ends of the table were not tapped perpendicular, they were clearly askew, you do find surprises here and there, but you somehow work around them:)

Although I feel your excitement, I think there is no point in planning anything too seriously until you actually get the mill, then you will be confronted by the real problems.

For cutting the top end of the ballnut flange I used a little dremel cutting disc, ( took 5 minutes) but I think if I had had a proper grinder, it would've been done in no time.

I too worried about the metal stress, but hopefully I didn't grind too much metal to cause any trouble.

Edward

mekanik
09-01-2017, 10:49 PM
Just went to the web page copied the address and pasted it,not put many attachments into posts but think it's in the tools menu .
Mike

noyloj
09-01-2017, 11:08 PM
Although I feel your excitement, I think there is no point in planning anything too seriously until you actually get the mill, then you will be confronted by the real problems.

For cutting the top end of the ballnut flange I used a little dremel cutting disc, ( took 5 minutes) but I think if I had had a proper grinder, it would've been done in no time.

I too worried about the metal stress, but hopefully I didn't grind too much metal to cause any trouble.

Edward

Yes Edward, you are of course correct! My excitement is clearly palpable!

I am of course nervous that I can convert this machine, having little hands on experience except with a tiny Proxxon some years ago. I guess I'm trying to figure out potential hurdles before I meet them, a little, so that I am not too overwhelmed when the machine finally arrives.

I shall duly 'wind it in a bit' until the kit starts arriving and try to be less... well... just less!

That said, my motion controller setup should be arriving any day now so prepare for the worst!

Thanks for the info... it's what I had thought for mine, more or less. The yanks all seem to entirely cut out a section of the saddle to take the ballnut... perhaps it's won't be necessary your way.

Ta Jo :)

Edward
09-01-2017, 11:22 PM
I am not sure if you have bought your drivers yet, but I myself am using the Leadshine EM806 after reading these forums (Zapp has got a good stock at the moment) and they are very nice and quiet. I am saying this because I have got other similar drivers and there is a hell of a difference in smoothness and noise. These may cost a bit more, but you won't regret it.I am amazed how quiet my machine is, not as quiet as it would be with servos, but not far from it!

Edward

noyloj
09-01-2017, 11:44 PM
Hi Edward

I bought motors and drives a while ago.. a friend in France had partially completed steel router project that he lost interest in. I have 2HSS86 hybrid drives with 12Nm and 8Nm motors.... I know it's overspec for the mill but I want to do my own router later with these drives and motors so I will play with them on this mill and probably swap out for smaller when I get some money together.... I'm pretty sure I can use 3.0Nm Nema24 HSE60 motors with these drivers which should be ideal for x and y and will probably stick with Nema34 but at 4.5Nm for the z. This means I can keep all the control electronics/PSUs the same for both machines and hopefully just plug and play them.

Jo