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View Full Version : BUILD LOG: El Beast - Initial design phase, comments and critique welcomed!



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Zeeflyboy
11-02-2017, 09:53 PM
Hello chaps,

I'm designing myself what I consider (or at least hope!) to be my ideal man cave based machine, the plan is to buy the components and materials over the next couple of months and then start machining parts for it.

I need to do a fair amount of work in aluminium, carbon fibre, FR4, and plastics so that is what the machine is being built around. If it can look nice with some fancy anodising then that's a bonus! I currently have an X6-2200L which I have upgraded with various bits and bobs, a pokeys57cnc ethernet controller (I fancied using mach4 so needed to upgrade), leadshine closed loop easy servo nema 23's, and some glass scales for calibrating.

While it generally does a pretty good job after some tweaking, there are a few design flaws though that niggle me, the bearing arrangement for ball screws is utter crap and the screws themselves have pretty mediocre accuracy. The Y-axis is also lacking in rigidity imo and there are a few other things that could stand to be improved such as the ability to tram the spindle.

Therefore, I had a choice - either I spend some fairly decent money and time upgrading and fixing these issues, or I just go the whole hog and build a new machine that addresses all these issues while also giving me a larger work area and the fun of building a new machine for myself, then transfer my electronics across. I am choosing the latter option :)

Current machine and table... you can see me sizing up the enclosure I want to build in the second pic:


http://i.imgur.com/p7YAlLB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vdiRoQa.jpg


I am working under some specific constraints - it needs to fit on my CNC table as I spent too much time building it to change it now lol. I am also trying to fit it inside an enclosure so every mm counts in overall footprint - it cannot grow too much over the existing machine so the increased work area needs to come from small increases in overall size and just using the space a bit more efficiently.


This is the overall design I've come up with after a few iterations (beefed the gantry arms up from 20 to 25mm, re-designed Z-axis to use 4 carriages etc):


http://i.imgur.com/oXFql8m.png

http://i.imgur.com/wMIyavq.png



Y-Axis:

- Primarily constructed from 45x90mm heavy profile, 45x45 profile, 20mm precision ground solid plate for tool plate, and 20mm plate for corner pieces.
- Dual motor to make up for massively increased weight and also to play with automatic squaring.
- Motion components: HGR20 x 4, HGH20CA x 8, FK12 x 2, FF12 x 2, MBA12-C x 2, TBI 1605 Ground C5 ball screw and nut x 2
- Total span 1000mm, Travel 750mm.
- Permanent water tray to contain chips/coolant and also for cutting CF fully submerged. Constructed from 12mm black Acetyl, 5mm Acrylic side windows and finished with a levelled platform for a 10mm Aluminium tool plate. G1/4 drain point at front.


http://i.imgur.com/nZd4H7R.png

http://i.imgur.com/i6okCIf.png




X-Axis:

- Primarily constructed from 40x160 Heavy ITM profile, 25mm precision ground solid plate for gantry arms.
- Motion components: HGR20 x 2, HGH20CA x 2, FK12 x 1, FF12 x 1, MBA12-C x 1, TBI 1605 Ground C5 Ball Screw and nut x 1
- Total Span 550mm, Travel 395mm.


It has been suggested that perhaps moving from 40x160 heavy profile to 40x200 heavy profile would yield a more rigid machine. I think I can probably do that within current constraints without losing gantry clearance... thoughts on the benefits of re-designing around the larger 200mm profile?


http://i.imgur.com/2O1qacb.png

http://i.imgur.com/cO8uHdD.png

http://i.imgur.com/jsln5T6.png



continued in next post due to pic limit...

Zeeflyboy
11-02-2017, 09:53 PM
....Z-Axis:

- Primarily constructed from 20mm and 15mm precision ground plate. 80mm single block machined spindle mount from RoverCNC.
- Motion components: HGR20 x 2, HGH20CA x 4, custom bearing blocks, FK12, TBI 1604 Ground C5 Ball Screw and nut x 1
- Tram adjustable +/- 0.5 degree using an eccentric bushing system.
- Total Span 320mm, Travel 165mm


http://i.imgur.com/siZJTNZ.png

http://i.imgur.com/FyYSlCW.png

http://i.imgur.com/wJKc67f.png

http://i.imgur.com/Yyb0XQD.png




Would be keen to know any thoughts or suggestions you guys may have.

Cheers

routercnc
11-02-2017, 11:33 PM
Looks very nice but if you want a stiff machine use a raised X axis design instead of long gantry sides.
Also on the Z axis you've gone for the tuning fork layout. Look at the layouts where the carriages are fixed on the Y axis and the rails are on the Z plate.

Nr1madman
12-02-2017, 07:15 AM
Awsome cadwork and really nice looking machine!
As routercnc mentioned the Z rails should be on the moving plate..
Also! If you want to increase travel of x axis you could have the y rails over and under the gantry instead of on the front. That would buy you around 25mm in x travel!
Saw that you use pokeys57cnc, how does it work for you? I'm in love with the idea of that product but others on the forum have had problems with it...

Regards
Madman

Zeeflyboy
12-02-2017, 07:23 PM
routercnc - by raised X axis are you talking about something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/GHffn17.jpg



Nr1 - Cheers. Thing with that suggestion is that the ball screw and mount is actually taking up more depth than the rails and carriages, so would need to do something totally different with the ballscrew arrangement.

I've been very happy with the pokeys57CNC - setup was easy, the mach4 plugin is great and support has been quick to answer my occasional stupid question.

Zeeflyboy
13-02-2017, 09:49 AM
Right lads,

So I've done a quick re-design of the entire Z-axis based on your feedback, re-using the existing motion components (which is handy, don't need to change my quote).

Travel is still 165mm, but I've actually managed to reduce the overall dimensions by 9mm in depth and 11mm in height with this re-design.

Before I spend too much time fleshing out the details any thoughts?

Z-Axis carriage - using 20mm plate as the back piece, 16mm plate to space out the carriages (plus 16mm top and bottom):

http://i.imgur.com/WNtL1Dv.png


Central travel position with Rails/Face plate (20mm) and tramming plate (15mm):

http://i.imgur.com/oS0qdYr.png


Bottom travel:

http://i.imgur.com/2PMycg9.png


Top Travel:

http://i.imgur.com/9KAArbc.png


View of rails at bottom position:

http://i.imgur.com/khykuu8.png

Clive S
13-02-2017, 10:28 AM
I can't see how you are going to bolt the Y rail blocks to the Z axis?

Zeeflyboy
13-02-2017, 10:33 AM
sorry to me the Y-rail is the long axis on the router bed which I'm guessing you don't mean, which blocks are we talking about?

Clive S
13-02-2017, 10:41 AM
sorry to me the Y-rail is the long axis on the router bed which I'm guessing you don't mean, which blocks are we talking about?Ok then the X rail ( the bearing blocks will need to be bolted to the Z plate) Can you get at the bolts to fix them. It is quite often a problem that they obstruct one another.

Zeeflyboy
13-02-2017, 10:46 AM
Ah do you mean how will I attach this Z-axis back plate to the X-Axis slider block?

The screw holes will be behind the 16mm Z-carriage riser blocks, so basically it would be a case of fitting the Back half of the Z-axis with motor, ball screw etc installed to the X-Axis slider block, then fitting the Z-carriage spacer block (with carriages pre-installed) to the Z-axis back plate. I will probably use 6mm DIN dowels on most mating surfaces to make alignment easier.

A_Camera
13-02-2017, 11:03 AM
http://i.imgur.com/GHffn17.jpg


I think your design is better than this one, in this one the Y rails are not optimally placed, would be better on the side or under the table.

Zeeflyboy
13-02-2017, 11:36 AM
I can see where the advantage is, in that the gantry arms can be a fair chunk shorter and thus give more rigidity for a given thickness.

The disadvantages are that it's a potentially a more complicated mounting assembly (especially when ball screws are considered as well), would need extra work to add shielding for the rails and would end up eating into my X-Axis bed area (although actual work area would probably be able to be kept the same with a little careful work, there would be less room for overall material size and clamping.

So the question is whether I go on the basis that 25mm thick plate will be sufficient for the gantry arms at their current length, or whether I want to take those above mentioned compromises in order to gain a little extra rigidity.

Zeeflyboy
13-02-2017, 04:16 PM
Bit more time refining the new Z-Axis design.

I realised I needed the plate that slides down to be slightly slimmer than the unit as a whole, otherwise it would jam on the water/chip tray sides when in the lowered positions so tweaked that along with some more design details and seals, tramming plate etc.


http://i.imgur.com/pbNgIU2.png

http://i.imgur.com/ETE60pS.png

http://i.imgur.com/2RbdWrP.png

Nr1madman
13-02-2017, 05:43 PM
Nr1 - Cheers. Thing with that suggestion is that the ball screw and mount is actually taking up more depth than the rails and carriages, so would need to do something totally different with the ballscrew arrangement.

I've been very happy with the pokeys57CNC - setup was easy, the mach4 plugin is great and support has been quick to answer my occasional stupid question.

You are of course right about the ballscrew placement! So nevermind about that :)

I'm glad you like the pokey's, might be that Im gonna place an order.. but mach4? Is it working alright as well?

The new Zaxis is looking sweet, what material are you planning on using for the "seals" in red?

Zeeflyboy
13-02-2017, 05:50 PM
Red silicone strip for the flat seals and not sure yet for the shaped stuff, either I'll laser cut some thicker silicone strip or 3D print in a flexible rubber.

Yeah I'm very happy with mach4 - it generally feels much more modern and clean than mach3, and it's far more responsive in terms of reacting to your manual inputs or feed hold etc.

It is probably a case of burning money somewhat if you've already got mach3, but I just wanted something a bit more future proof since I'm on a new pc running windows 10 pro. I believe that the pokeys57cnc is better supported on mach4, so that's certainly something to consider as a potential extra expense if going the pokeys route (although even the pokeys57CNC + mach4 is cheaper than the smooth stepper + BoB I had).

If getting mach4, I recommend looking at the pdmx site - even without a joint purchase its slightly cheaper to the tune of 10 bucks or so.

Ross77
14-02-2017, 12:30 AM
Looks nice. If you move all 4 z axis blocks down you will gain more travel, or move down the lower ones to increase rigidity at full extension.

What CAD programme is that?

Zeeflyboy
14-02-2017, 10:33 AM
Looks nice. If you move all 4 z axis blocks down you will gain more travel, or move down the lower ones to increase rigidity at full extension.

What CAD programme is that?

Cheers,

Won't gain more travel by moving them down - it can already travel the full length of the rail so it's limited to rail length minus 2x carriage.

However it's been pointed out that moving them towards the bottom does put the "fixing" point closer to the work which would reduce the lever arm and increase rigidity. I will probably slide them down a bit and slide the tram plate up to match.

I'm using fusion 360 for everything these days, the built in cam is awesome.

routercnc
14-02-2017, 01:22 PM
For raised X axis I mean something like these where the gantry is mounted directly on top of the X rails, which are themselves raised well above the level of the bed. The raised X axis can then be reinforced and made as stiff as you want. Often they are steel box section, which is x3 stiff as aluminium (like-for-like sizes). This avoids having the long drop down gantry side plates which will not be as stiff.

It is very difficult to overcome offsets by beefing up/reinforcing the connecting structure. Much better not to have the offset in the first place.

20802

or

20803

The example you choose still had gantry sides and the X axis rails were level with the bed so no real advantage and not what I would call raised X axis design.

Z axis swapped around looks good. I'm adding a pair of tram plates to my new machine so good to see it used on yours.

njhussey
14-02-2017, 05:25 PM
Hi!

I can recommend the high (X or Y axis depending on what you call it!!) rail approach (my machine is the bottom photo) to give stiffness. My machine munches aluminium and I've even cut (I'll say tickled really) 6mm steel plate. I presume you're the same person who frequents (or possibly did as I've not been on there for a few years now) RcHeliAddict forum, I think the last time I was on there you were just testing your small FPV Quad you designed?

Clive S
14-02-2017, 06:36 PM
(my machine is the bottom photo) And mine is the top one. I to was recommended to go down that route:thumsup:

Zeeflyboy
14-02-2017, 07:03 PM
Both very nice machines! No size envy here.... :hororr:

Were the frames DIY?

Yeah that was me - it was the vortex race drone that I was designing back then.

njhussey
14-02-2017, 08:12 PM
Both very nice machines! No size envy here.... :hororr:

Were the frames DIY?

Yeah that was me - it was the vortex race drone that I was designing back then.

Ahh thought it was, I remember your fpv Eurofighter too...fantastic plane.

Yes, both were welded from scratch. Mine's now vertically mounted (well 85° to be precise) on another frame I welded up...

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Zeeflyboy
14-02-2017, 10:20 PM
I should learn to weld one day...


Cheers chaps - I'm off to scratch my head and think what I can do with the bed/frame design.

Zeeflyboy
16-02-2017, 03:28 PM
Well I've been playing around with it, and unfortunately I'm just not going to be able to get the work size I want to work in the space I need if going with the raised gantry type design, at the moment the work area is more important to me than absolute rigidity.

That said, taking on board that feedback I will be tweaking the design a little to take the 15mm mounting plates higher up (thus making the gantry arms effectively 40mm thick until they leave the bed surface) and I can also move the gantry down by about 14mm and make it line up with the bottom of the z-axis without losing any clearance... I can also switch from 20mm plate to 15mm plate for the main bed which would allow me to drop another 5mm off the gantry height. All adds up!

Given that the current machine does a pretty decent job of aluminium already, I hope that the re-designed Z-axis and the significantly beefier gantry arms (current ones are 150mm wide and 15mm thick vs the new one at 250mm wide and 25mm thick will be more than sufficient for my needs while giving the larger work area I need.

njhussey
16-02-2017, 04:40 PM
Just looking back again at your design, why the 2 rails each side of your Y axis? One rail will have more than sufficient strength for anything you can throw at it?

Zeeflyboy
16-02-2017, 05:30 PM
Overkill?

20824

Zeeflyboy
17-02-2017, 01:00 AM
Been re-working the gantry a touch...

Its now a 40x200mm ITM profile vs the 160mm before... in addition to that, I reasoned that given that I was having to put 20mm spacers on the carriages to bring them in line with the ballscrew block, I may as well put that material into the gantry strength instead and raise the rails themselves out by 20mm... to that end I've designed a 20mm thick plate that will be mounted to the profile, then the rails will attach to the plate... the centre will be machined out to accommodate the motor mount and ballscrew bearing block.

The back is 12mm plate, and the top and bottom covers I figure may as well be made structural, so they are now mostly comprised of 4mm plate and will be screwed into the profile top/bottom, which I figure should help a little to reduce any deflection from forces in the Y-Axis.

Should be fairly strong?

http://i.imgur.com/LLGBjXU.png

Zeeflyboy
17-02-2017, 03:47 PM
Oh and just out of interest guys, is there anyone in the south east here (I'm horsham based, south west of gatwick) that has a machine big enough to just accurately size up and drill a 1040x520x15mm piece of plate for some beer money?

I generally order from aluminium warehouse but they always come with -0/+2mm on dimensions and it would be nice to get it sized up more accurately and the holes drilled on a CNC to save me trying to mess around with jigs and figuring out how to get the width and length accurate. It would just be a case of whizzing up to 1mm off the edges and drilling some mounting holes, no skimming required or anything.

Zeeflyboy
18-02-2017, 03:39 PM
quick and dirty assembly with the revised designs... no finer details worked out yet like seals etc

Changes:

- I've just brought the end plates within the work envelope of my current machine so that I can do them as a single piece, narrowed the bed slightly to allow the 15mm gantry mount plates to extend up to just beneath the bed surface.

- Bed taken down to 15mm to allow same clearance with slightly shorter gantry

- Gantry profile extended from 40x160 to 40x200, plus the extra 20mm of plate for spacing out the rails, back plate bumped up to 12mm.

- Moving rail Z-axis design.


http://i.imgur.com/fNZZxj8.png

A_Camera
18-02-2017, 04:33 PM
quick and dirty assembly with the revised designs... no finer details worked out yet like seals etc

Changes:

- I've just brought the end plates within the work envelope of my current machine so that I can do them as a single piece, narrowed the bed slightly to allow the 15mm gantry mount plates to extend up to just beneath the bed surface.

- Bed taken down to 15mm to allow same clearance with slightly shorter gantry

- Gantry profile extended from 40x160 to 40x200, plus the extra 20mm of plate for spacing out the rails, back plate bumped up to 12mm.

- Moving rail Z-axis design.


http://i.imgur.com/fNZZxj8.png

That's exactly what I meant on CNCZone about those end plates. Did you do the same change for the bottom end plate? The one moving the gantry? I think even that should be made of one piece, not two.

Zeeflyboy
18-02-2017, 05:11 PM
Yup same on the back - narrowed them enough to just squeeze within my current machine's work space so can do them both as single piece now.

Boyan Silyavski
19-02-2017, 10:55 AM
Did sb tell you already to rid of that ridiculous Y Hiwin design? Why would you need 2 rails each side? You need one rail and 2 blocks, size 20 which have 100 times the specs higher than your machine can weight or 10x force on them.

Before rendering the design, better think how you will mount all together. Especially how will adjust and fit things and with your design especially how you will square the Y rails/ yes again the Y rails./

While side mounting is very beautiful is very hard to mount them properly in DIY design, thats why people use epoxy and mount them horizontally. Or as per your design- all MUST be Machined on mill so you fit it right.

Same as front/back mounting ball screw supports.

So the way i see it- nothing wrong with all that if you are to mill all pieces on a mill/ not your old CNC/ . If not- the result will be mediocre concerning precision

Ger21
19-02-2017, 01:24 PM
Did sb tell you already to rid of that ridiculous Y Hiwin design? Why would you need 2 rails each side? You need one rail and 2 blocks, size 20 which have 100 times the specs higher than your machine can weight or 10x force on them.



I told him that 12 days ago, the first time I saw it.

Zeeflyboy
19-02-2017, 02:47 PM
Yeah yeah, just haven't had time to work on that part yet as i've been re-designing the x-axis gantry and the z-axis first.

Boyan - plan was to mount the rail to the 45x90 and then level it to the ecocast plate bed before tightening down all the screws, which would give alignment in the Z-axis. I suppose you are suggesting that the flatness of the extrusion will leave it slightly "wavey" in the horizontal axis?

What about mounting a 20mm ecocast plate to the extrusion and then the rail to the plate, similar to what i'm ending up doing with the X-Axis?

Boyan Silyavski
19-02-2017, 02:56 PM
I am speaking about how you would level the long rails that gantry moves on them / Y/- in the Z plane to be on one plane and at the same time to be flat . I am not so worried about the flatness as you say you will be using Ecocast plate.

Zeeflyboy
19-02-2017, 03:30 PM
So the plan was to mount the ecocast bed plate, then using a shim between one of the Y-Carriages and the underside of the bed plate I could fasten the screws moving the carriage as I go, which would end up with the rails level to the ecocast bed surface.

The end pieces I have designed a pocket in the back sides to accept the 45x90 extrusions, which keeps the spacing between front and back consistent and (assuming the shop cuts the extrusions square) should keep things squared up too, and was planning on adding a couple of corner brackets to help keep the squareness of the frame acceptable.

http://i.imgur.com/EnvpC25.png


So the only thing that can cause significant issues as far as I can see is that I'm effectively relying somewhat on the flatness of the 45x90x1000mmm extrusions to provide the straightness in the horizontal plane. If the extrusions are slightly bent for example then I could get a slight curve when travelling fore/aft in the Y-axis... that would need fairly accurate shimming to get rid of.

Could be an option to get some 20mm ecocast plate to mount to the 45x90mm and then mount the rails to that perhaps?

e.g:

http://i.imgur.com/IoUA9Bh.png

Zeeflyboy
19-02-2017, 04:55 PM
Another potential option perhaps would be to re-design around this misumi milled profile? https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110302689340/?Inch=0

Not sure of the cost or availability however.

Boyan Silyavski
19-02-2017, 05:29 PM
Seems alright. I would have done it same way. using straight edge you can make sure all is ok

Zeeflyboy
19-02-2017, 05:37 PM
Sorry just to be clear for me - you are saying you would do the levelling the same way with the shim, or the mounting of 20mm plate to the extrusion before mounting the rail, or going with the milled extrusion?

fifa
19-02-2017, 06:15 PM
Boyan is right

2 rails each side are nonsense. The result will be huge loads to the rail bearings due to thermal distortions, nonparallel cuts etc. General problems with gantry types is non-optimised stiffens. Torsional displacement of the gantry beam define the stiffens of whole system.
Everything is assembled from standard profiles. I-s are known, do the simple test and apply load of 100N at the end of the cutter.
Don't be surprised.

regards

Zeeflyboy
19-02-2017, 06:38 PM
yes fair enough, I'm going with a single rail each side.

I like the look of the misumi milled profile - they have it in the 45x90 size i was originally planning. Just need to figure out how to actually buy the stuff and how much it is.

Edit - Father in Law is happy to get it through his company, now just a question of how much dolla!

A_Camera
19-02-2017, 09:15 PM
yes fair enough, I'm going with a single rail each side.


It is a good decision. Now just turn them 90 degrees and place them under the table. Squaring will be a problem if you are not doing that. You would also get a more rigid machine if the rails are mounted horizontally.

Zeeflyboy
20-02-2017, 03:10 AM
Why do you think it would it be more rigid?



(3) High rigidity in all four directions
Because of the four-row design, the HG series linear guideway has equal load ratings in the radial, reverse radial and lateral directions. Furthermore, the circular-arc groove provides a wide-contact width between the balls and the groove raceway allowing large permissible loads and high rigidity


Personally I think the machine as a whole will be more rigid with the current setup as it allows me to bolt the frame and frame supports to the tool bed for added frame rigidity while keeping the unsupported gantry arm to the minimum length. If I flip the supports 90 degrees and set them up like my current machine then I have an unsupported bed that will flex, and I can't put the cross supports in as they would then interfere with the ball screws... unless I underslung them which would be a mounting nightmare.

Zeeflyboy
20-02-2017, 04:34 PM
Just out of interest, 50x100 GFS (high rigidity version, 6.8kg/m) milled profile works out to around £70 per metre before tax.

Given I only need 2 metres of it that's not too bad really for a milled mounting surface I think... might be the way forward.

Boyan Silyavski
22-02-2017, 05:39 PM
Why do you think it would it be more rigid?





Personally I think the machine as a whole will be more rigid with the current setup as it allows me to bolt the frame and frame supports to the tool bed for added frame rigidity while keeping the unsupported gantry arm to the minimum length. If I flip the supports 90 degrees and set them up like my current machine then I have an unsupported bed that will flex, and I can't put the cross supports in as they would then interfere with the ball screws... unless I underslung them which would be a mounting nightmare.

Yes, it would be. But there is the challenge to align all.

The only way to align that easy and properly 100% is to rest all frame on flat surface and lift rails on paralel blocks same size and then tighten. But i assume you dont have that flat surface. So you may have to think of sth else. What i am saying here is that a design is as good as you know all steps, to finishthe machine. To figure the details meanwhile you are building it=wasted money and time

Zeeflyboy
22-02-2017, 05:41 PM
Thought we already mentioned that the rails would be aligned to the ecocast ground bed plate?

I'll be using Thorlabs precision corner brackets for frame squareness (combined with the ecocast end plates and milled extrusion).

Does that not cover the alignment issues, especially given the relatively small size of the machine?

Boyan Silyavski
22-02-2017, 07:22 PM
They will be aligned left-right, not up-down , plus have to be straight up down, not wavy, same for left right, but as you said that will not be a problem as eco cast plate. 3d, means there are 3 directions that things have to be on plane

Zeeflyboy
22-02-2017, 08:18 PM
No, they would be aligned in the vertical plane too... ecocast bed plate could be fastened to the top and then I would insert a shim of 2.5mm between carriage and bed with the carriage at one end, clamp it in place and tighten end screw. Move carriage to other end, insert same shim again and clamp. Tighten that end screw... If required you could repeat that at several points along the length.

Repeat on the other side and both rails are aligned vertically using the eco cast bed plate as a reference.

The parallelism and squareness of the Y-rails would be taken care of to acceptable tolerances by the captive ecocast end plates, milled extrusions and thorlabs corner brackets, while the vertical alignment (both in X axis rotation and Z plane height) would be done in reference to an ecocast bed plate.

What am I missing? In my head that ends up with the rails fully aligned in all axis to within the tolerance of the milled surfaces which should be sufficient for a pretty accurate machine all said and done.

Boyan Silyavski
22-02-2017, 08:54 PM
Seems 100% ok what you are saying. Thats very similar to the way i thought it could be done.

Zeeflyboy
22-02-2017, 09:02 PM
Ok great, thanks - glad you agree with my thinking then!

I've just done a mass analysis on the finished machine and its coming in at just shy of 190kg... I know mass is but one suggestion of rigidity but that's not far off 3 times the mass of my current machine.

I've also taken the opportunity to change to a HGR25 rail and HGR25HA carriages on the Y-axis since there is more space now.

Had a quote back for all motion parts, it was pretty reasonable for ground screws and HIWIN rails. Think I'm good to pull the trigger on those parts?


http://i.imgur.com/kJvfLRJ.png

fifa
22-02-2017, 09:49 PM
Few comments:
- I do not understand why you are using AL profiles and AL plates, check stiffness...
- design of lower (x) rails is .... You need to grind both surfaces to get perfect parallelism, otherwise will linear bearings feel the load caused by angular displacement of both rails , put them on the top of the table, in same plane - much easier for DIY,
- design of gantry (y) - it must be closed beam - it has no sense to do a "nice look" without functionality,
- side brackets, what is the method for setting the "true" right angles? Do you expect that everything will be machined within few microns? , y length tolerance stack is problematic anyway
- foots: do you expect that desktop is planar?, machine must be stable, it looks nice, but

Before design set the requirements i.e.
- max work space
- max space for machine
- max tooling dia
- material of machining
- define what you wish to do ( mirror surfaces, engraving...)

and the start with design.

regards

Zeeflyboy
22-02-2017, 10:11 PM
Few comments:
- I do not understand why you are using AL profiles and AL plates, check stiffness...

Why alu profile, because it is available cut to length at sizes larger than I can handle myself with decent precision and also with ground surfaces from misumi. GFS (high rigidity) profiles are being used, they have substantially more mass than normal profiles.

Why alu plate, because I can process aluminium plate myself and I can buy it in ecocast form with a high flatness tolerance, again readily available. If I pay for every part of this machine to be made up in steel to high tolerances by someone else then I will not be able to afford it, even if the material itself is cheaper... which i'm not sure it is when you start talking about milled tooling plate.



- design of lower (x) rails is .... You need to grind both surfaces to get perfect parallelism, otherwise will linear bearings feel the load caused by angular displacement of both rails , put them on the top of the table, in same plane - much easier for DIY,

Both surfaces are ground...


- design of gantry (y) - it must be closed beam - it has no sense to do a "nice look" without functionality,

I don't understand what you mean here.



- side brackets, what is the method for setting the "true" right angles? Do you expect that everything will be machined within few microns? , y length tolerance stack is problematic anyway

That little mounting plate at the bottom of each side has an eccentric nut on one end and a DIN shoulder bolt at the other, which will allow the entire gantry to be trammed fore/aft, while the side arms and mount plates are both made from eco-cast plate which will have to sit flat to each other when bolted together. Further adjustment is available on the spindle mount for tramming left/right.



- foots: do you expect that desktop is planar?, machine must be stable,

On a machine this small I think adjustable feet are more trouble than it's worth. Better just to make sure you have a flat level surface for it to sit on... depending on what I can find I will either sit it on a granite block or pour a self levelling base block for it which will form the bottom of my enclosure.


Before design set the requirements i.e.
- max work space
- max space for machine
- max tooling dia
- material of machining
- define what you wish to do ( mirror surfaces, engraving...)

and the start with design.

regards

My design requirements were of course set out before I started to design it... the majority of what you list there was mentioned in the very first post. I'm not sure how you can even start designing a machine without knowing what you want it to do...


Thank you for the feedback but I do think there is a danger sometimes of losing sight of reality on this forum. For what is ultimately a small hobby desktop machine the rigidity of a 50x100mm GFS extrusion and 20/25mm alu plate is hardly going to be the limiting factor... This machine will be an order of magnitude more rigid and precise than my current one while expanding the work area, which is really all I'm after.

Zeeflyboy
22-02-2017, 10:42 PM
A few frame details... made up using 50x100 and 50x50 milled profile now.

Bottom screw nut mounting plate will probably become a single piece once I have a machine large enough to make it.

http://i.imgur.com/MZYunIM.png

http://i.imgur.com/M6oqBs5.png


Gantry fore/aft tramming adjustment (both sides)... undecided whether to go this way or just rely on shimming for this bit.

http://i.imgur.com/VYdSLoU.png

fifa
22-02-2017, 10:56 PM
Sorry I am not native English speaker, therefore I can be easily misunderstood.

X rails: pre-machining rails do not count due:
- rails must be parallel - your design is frame from 4 profiles. Forget on straightness (you are assuming this will help with using expensive profiles.) think about other two elements which are connecting both profiles.
You have 2 plates - potentially nonparallel, two profiles Mitsumi + two profiles catted and machined by... as I said check the stiffens of the bearing, lets assume the total error of non-parallelism is 100 microns, and that half of this error must be compensated by bearings, the other half by brackets. This means 25 microns per bearing - now check the stiffness and you will see the load which is in the "system". If you wish to remove error, you need to do machining in the assembled condition...

Check the I (Area moment of Inertia) of profile and plate, most likely 25 mm thick plate is stiffer than 50 mm profile or it is close to it. And whatever will you do: If the profile and plate are not planar, when they will be assembled the result will be non-straightness of the rail "bed" surface.

Y gantry: problem is torsional load not the bending - check the I and calculate displacement applying 100 N force at the end of the tool
The second problem is: Y gantry length must meet X rail width - within micron range otherwise you are facing with additional load to the X bearings... Not mentioned that both side surfaces must be parallel, - if not additional load on X bearings again

Regarding the idea of setting the true angles with bolt - by definition this means you are incorporating elasticity in relative stiff system. Means also you have nice oscillation.

You are right system is relatively rigid. I am escalating problems caused G&T and consequences of those.

regards

regards


,

njhussey
22-02-2017, 11:12 PM
Well I think that compared to my machine, which is welded steel frame with a bit of epoxy for levelling the rails and some 20mm tooling plate for the gantry, this is far more of an engineered and well thought out solution. Thought has gone into how to assemble the machine and the OP is very realistic with respect to the area they want and what they want the machine to do.

I think gents that everyone is getting a little too nit picky (which, don't get me wrong, can be a good thing) and getting a little bit too bogged down in ultra precision engineering and forgetting that this is a hobby machine..............there is nothing here in this design of machine which couldn't be sorted with the help from a few beers an assortment of shims and a bloody big hammer :whistle: :biggrin:

1Jumper10
23-02-2017, 01:36 AM
Absolutely agree. There may be some minor adjustment needed at the end but there would be with ANY machine (except possibly a Datron). It looks more well planned than most other DIY machines that have turned out just fine.
ZeeFlyBoy your skills with Fusion 360 are incredible.

Zeeflyboy
23-02-2017, 03:33 AM
Thank you chaps! Neil I think you summed up my thoughts quite eloquently - especially the beer and hammer part lol.

I am of course after critique, it was the main purpose of sharing this design before starting to build it rather than vice versa - and I am extremely glad I did.

The complete change to the Z-Axis for example is not something I would have thought of but I can definitely see the benefits... but ultimately yes, one needs to keep sight of the fact that this is a hobby machine to go in the Man Cave, not an industrial interferometer calibrated machine.

I am confident that the design as it now stands will fall within the alignment error ability of the linear rail carriages, and with some tweaking I think I can get probably get it to within my ability to accurately measure.

Jumper - Thanks but I'm still just an amateur with Fusion, but I do find it refreshingly easy to use for the most part!

Zeeflyboy
23-02-2017, 04:26 AM
Sorry I am not native English speaker, therefore I can be easily misunderstood.

X rails: pre-machining rails do not count due:
- rails must be parallel - your design is frame from 4 profiles. Forget on straightness (you are assuming this will help with using expensive profiles.) think about other two elements which are connecting both profiles.
You have 2 plates - potentially nonparallel, two profiles Mitsumi + two profiles catted and machined by... as I said check the stiffens of the bearing, lets assume the total error of non-parallelism is 100 microns, and that half of this error must be compensated by bearings, the other half by brackets. This means 25 microns per bearing - now check the stiffness and you will see the load which is in the "system". If you wish to remove error, you need to do machining in the assembled condition...

All profiles are going to be from the same place (mitsumi now, given I want the milled stuff) actually, given that they almost certainly should be cutting the bracing profiles one after the other without re-positioning the cutting gate they should be very, very close.

They can always be massaged with my current machine which will happily repeat to substantially better than your stated 100 micron example (as confirmed by some fairly expensive glass scales mounted to both X and Y axis). It should be fairly easy to get them to within 10's of microns rather than 100's...




Check the I (Area moment of Inertia) of profile and plate, most likely 25 mm thick plate is stiffer than 50 mm profile or it is close to it. And whatever will you do: If the profile and plate are not planar, when they will be assembled the result will be non-straightness of the rail "bed" surface.

Y gantry: problem is torsional load not the bending - check the I and calculate displacement applying 100 N force at the end of the tool


This is a bit beyond me, I have never used any simulation software and not sure where to start.

I'm simply going on the basis that common sense Garden Shed engineering tells me a combined total of 32mm of solid aluminium plate and 40mm of heavy profile that makes up the gantry cross section is overkill for a 550mm span gantry on a relatively light duty table top machine. Certainly it is at least as beefy as most DIY machines of that scale that I have seen.


The second problem is: Y gantry length must meet X rail width - within micron range otherwise you are facing with additional load to the X bearings... Not mentioned that both side surfaces must be parallel, - if not additional load on X bearings again

I don't really see this being an issue as long as it's longer rather than shorter. All it requires is to try inserting a shim brass sheet of various thicknesses between the gantry arm and mounting plate until you find a thickness that slots in snugly.


Regarding the idea of setting the true angles with bolt - by definition this means you are incorporating elasticity in relative stiff system. Means also you have nice oscillation.

How is it incorporating elasticity? Once the angles are set the bolts on the respective parts are torqued down clamping everything rigidly in place... you aren't relying on the part just resting on an eccentric bushing. Where does the elasticity come from?


You are right system is relatively rigid. I am escalating problems caused G&T and consequences of those.

You've lost me again lol - what's G&T when it's not in a glass with some ice?

Boyan Silyavski
23-02-2017, 08:44 AM
I dont see a problem, as far as your face and back plate are actually machined on a mill.


Not that we are getting picky, but when some one sees that machine design, its obviously to a higher standard. So in order to maintain that standard and result to be incredible machine, one should aim high.

I said once somewhere, you may laugh but the most imprecision in a build comes from not wiping the dust correctly from rails when mounting, when you are alone and tired, in a rush and no one to help you.

A_Camera
23-02-2017, 10:47 AM
Ok great, thanks - glad you agree with my thinking then!

I've just done a mass analysis on the finished machine and its coming in at just shy of 190kg... I know mass is but one suggestion of rigidity but that's not far off 3 times the mass of my current machine.

I've also taken the opportunity to change to a HGR25 rail and HGR25HA carriages on the Y-axis since there is more space now.

Had a quote back for all motion parts, it was pretty reasonable for ground screws and HIWIN rails. Think I'm good to pull the trigger on those parts?


http://i.imgur.com/kJvfLRJ.png

This is certainly going to be one of the most beautiful and best machines I have seen. Seeing and following your posts I am sure that the quality will match the beauty and it will not just be a "beautiful blond" with only good looks and sexy appearance, but it will also have massive quality and accuracy attributes.

I also like the idea of protective side covers, I think this is important because of several reasons, apart from the most obvious that it keeps most of the chips inside the working table area, it also works pretty efficiently when the cutter is broken and comes flying at you like a deadly projectile at high speed. I also have side walls around mine and that have stopped two such projectiles already from hitting me, so it is definitely a good idea to design that protection from the start. I actually don't understand how other people dare to run these machines without any protection at all, some not even using protective goggles. Perhaps they never make mistakes and never break a mill bit, I don't know, but that's their business.

The only thing I'd do differently in your design regarding the walls is that I'd make them easily removable, preferably without the need of unscrewing. This is because it helps placing the work piece/vice/measuring instruments and so on on the table more easily. It also allows working on longer than the table work pieces if you would need it some day.

The other thing you should consider is the mass. 190kg is a very heavy thing, which is very good for a machine, but it sets some requirements for the table also. No point building such heavy machine if the table it is on is not stable enough, which I am sure you know very well also.

The other thing about the mass you have to consider is the ability to move it around. Perhaps it is a non-issue, but anyway, if you one day have to move it just a little bit, it is going to be a very difficult task if you haven't thought about that during the design. My machine is only about 90kg but to move that around on my own is not possible, so I have to lower the machine on wheels to do that, and even so it is not something which is done in a minute or two, first I have to lift the machine then remove the wooden blocks it is standing on then lower down on two wheels and do the same for the back, or the front part, depending on where I start. Mine is standing on it's own feet, so it is a bit easier than it would be for yours.

Perhaps you have these questions covered/solved already, but before starting the machine build, I'd build the table to build it on and made sure the table is extremely easy to rotate and move around during the work. It is going to be necessary to have easy access to all sides, that's for sure.

Anyway, it is very interesting to follow up on your work and see the progress. Good luck with the rest of the work as well, and don't forget too keep us updated, both here and on the Zone.

Zeeflyboy
23-02-2017, 02:56 PM
Boyan, you are clearly a man of high standards which I respect, and I thank you for your advice. I just hope that when I start building it doesn't become painful for you to watch ;)



The only thing I'd do differently in your design regarding the walls is that I'd make them easily removable

It would be nice to have them removable, but they need to be water tight for underwater cutting of carbon fibre. I think making them rapidly removable may be tricky whilst also being sure I'm not going to flood my work bench. I get on okay with the current version which is quite similar, but I will have a think about whether I can do anything to make at least one side removable.


The other thing you should consider is the mass. 190kg is a very heavy thing, which is very good for a machine, but it sets some requirements for the table also.

The table is crazy strong and rigid... In fact I think the table is probably 100kg or more itself! It's constructed from some very beefy pine struts, big slabs of 18mm moisture resistant MDF and topped with 40mm solid oak.... here are some pics from when I was building it with one of my friends just out of interest (not that you asked):

Main frame:

http://i.imgur.com/ZEpjPq0.jpg


Skinned and being massaged to perfection

http://i.imgur.com/lpAFJNa.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/evRYuHb.jpg

Controller mount and utility draw:

http://i.imgur.com/EgQ1WXS.jpg


Finished table:

http://i.imgur.com/OUuTaHR.jpg







The other thing about the mass you have to consider is the ability to move it around. Perhaps it is a non-issue, but anyway, if you one day have to move it just a little bit, it is going to be a very difficult task if you haven't thought about that during the design. My machine is only about 90kg but to move that around on my own is not possible, so I have to lower the machine on wheels to do that, and even so it is not something which is done in a minute or two, first I have to lift the machine then remove the wooden blocks it is standing on then lower down on two wheels and do the same for the back, or the front part, depending on where I start. Mine is standing on it's own feet, so it is a bit easier than it would be for yours.


It won't need to move very often, but when it does it will probably be a case of having to separate the gantry and the main bed... unless I just pick up an old engine hoist perhaps. Actually that's not a bad idea - perhaps I should built in some hoist points?

Moving heavy things is ultimately just an engineering challenge!


Just in case any one is interested, this is the Man Cave I built last year, which is the home for this future machine.... I also have to try and find space for a Wabceo D4000 lathe:

http://i.imgur.com/fYzY7vn.jpg

http://imgur.com/ljXUsNi.jpg

http://imgur.com/RpIafBr.jpg

http://imgur.com/yxOTHI2.jpg

http://imgur.com/esb13RU.jpg

A_Camera
23-02-2017, 03:06 PM
Very nice place, but of course, I am not surprised to see that you man cave looks this nice and tidy. Thanks for sharing the images.

Otherwise I agree, moving heavy objects is just an engineering question but it is good to consider it in advance.

Zeeflyboy
23-02-2017, 03:09 PM
Thanks

Yeah you might have saved me some grief by making me think about hoist points early on!

Zeeflyboy
23-02-2017, 03:19 PM
Slight tangent again but I just wanted to share this beautiful bit of kit that just landed on my doorstep...

I've been quite excited waiting for this to arrive:

http://i.imgur.com/IbWO1jJ.jpg


It's a 3D touch probe called the TPA2 by Kurokesu... absolute piece of art! It's filled with di-electric oil (de-oxit I'm guessing) to prevent oxidation of the Tungsten carbide contacts which should keep it working reliably for a long time!

Looking forward to getting this up and running, if it works half as good as it looks it should bring a new level of accuracy to my work. I was waiting for this before kicking off any machining for "El Beast" so that I can use it to verify dimensions and for accurate two sided machining.


edit - got the concentricity at the tip dialled in to a consistent +/- 0.002mm so 0.004mm total.... just pushing hard on the spindle causes more variation than that on this machine so I think that is good enough for now!

http://i.imgur.com/ARJxbN0.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAFG2jFSQz0&feature=em-upload_owner

A_Camera
23-02-2017, 09:07 PM
Thanks

Yeah you might have saved me some grief by making me think about hoist points early on!

Sorry. :courage:

Zeeflyboy
06-03-2017, 01:30 PM
Wheels are in motion... Rails/carriages/screws/accessories have been quoted and paid for, and I've managed to get the milled bottom frame extrusions ordered too. I am having some 1204 screws ground for a different project which will unfortunately mean around 20 days lead time on the motion components, but this isn't going to be a quick build anyway as I'm going to be held back by only budgeting a small amount each month towards it's completion.

Looking forward to be able to get started on some of it. Plan is to build the bottom frame first as I have enough 20mm eco-cast in stock to get cracking and the extrusions should arrive middle of the month. It'll also be good to get that built first to make sure I don't have any alignment issues with the design, if I end up having to change how it's oriented then better to get that nailed first then figure out the changes that the X-gantry would require as a result.

njhussey
06-03-2017, 02:44 PM
Looking forward to the build....:thumsup:

Zeeflyboy
26-03-2017, 03:02 PM
So I've just got my hands on the extrusions...

http://i.imgur.com/OwsNDDc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eYuFwaT.jpg

Packaging looked okay but alas they weren't quite as well protected as one might hope - upon inspection one of the large extrusions has clearly suffered a drop on one corner.

http://i.imgur.com/NxeyzrM.jpg


Cleaned up with a file and it shouldn't have any impact on the final result.

http://i.imgur.com/X3YZnSz.jpg


To do a quick and easy check of comparative length I placed the extrusions on a piece of alucast plate and put them side by side. Given that a fingertip can detect features in the 10 micron range through dynamic touch (i.e. dragging your finger across a feature) this is actually a surprisingly accurate method of determining if there is any difference in length.

http://i.imgur.com/3mg5HiY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/urfH2ru.jpg


The good news is that they seem to be completely flush and more-over standing them side by side you can't even see a hint of daylight between the two, so they must be nice and straight as well.

Did the same for the smaller cross-extrusions where it's arguably much more important that they are of consistent length and the initial check seems good too. As these are shorter than the main extrusions they should be within my ability to measure using the CNC machine and a touch probe, so should be able to get some more scientific results!

http://i.imgur.com/q5xyODf.jpg


Interesting to see the difference between the milled sides and the un-molested sides - you can see the gaps between the non-milled edges where they aren't flush (the edge that runs horizontal left-right in the pic)

http://i.imgur.com/hF0PxCK.jpg


Quick layout to see the size:

http://i.imgur.com/1Y6cLpW.jpg


Next month's budget will go on some alu plate and some thorlabs precision corner brackets (well, and a big bbq for a new built in project I'm doing in the garden!) , and then the build of the y-axis can properly begin, hopefully with the motion components arriving some time next month too. Apart from the unfortunate corner ding, I'm very impressed with the quality. They are some seriously chunky and solid feeling hunks of alu too which is reassuring.

A_Camera
26-03-2017, 04:55 PM
Nice, thank you. Care to share the supplier and the data? Maybe next time I'll buy these, since these look MUCH better than mine.

About the dent... you should complain. I received once also one with a dent, complained and without further discussion they sent me a new piece. Yes, it is just aesthetics, but it is a pity to have spend so much time and money on perfection and on something which (especially in your case) is otherwise so nicely designed and built and start off with a dent... :chargrined:

Zeeflyboy
26-03-2017, 06:09 PM
I thought about that, and I may yet do so... The problem I'm thinking is that it really helps me out if these are perfectly matched length wise. Given that I'm sure they set the cutting length and then chopped one after the other, when done as a pair they should be pretty much spot on. If they send me a single one to replace the dinged piece then there is no guarantee that it will be as closely matched and will be subject to their cutting tolerance instead (which they don't actually seem to specify, other than allowing you to dictate product length in 0.5mm increments).

So given that consideration, along with the fact that the corner will be totally hidden once constructed, I'm leaning towards just sticking with it rather than risk extra alignment headaches by slightly mismatched lengths.

But anyway, to answer your question the profiles themselves are pre-milled pieces from misumi. The cross pieces are HFSP8-5050 (50mm square profile, milled on 2 sides - so actually 49x50mm) while the larger ones are the bulkier high rigidity GFSP8-10050 (100mm x 50mm, milled on the 100mm sides, so true dimensions are 100x49mm). Misumi have a variety of milled profiles so you can probably find one that suits what you need - the issue is actually ordering it if you don't work for/own an appropriate company as they won't sell to normal plebs like us.

1Jumper10
26-03-2017, 07:01 PM
Looks very nice. I've heard good things about Misumi extrusions and they were one of the sources I had considered using in the past but I've never ordered anything from them. Thanks for the pics. They confirm my perception of Misumi's quality. Given the quality of the extrusion, do you think you really need the Thor Labs corner brackets? Looking forward to your build...

Zeeflyboy
26-03-2017, 07:55 PM
There is probably an argument to be made that I could live without them...

Maybe I'll go with just a single pair at the front and see how it comes out... easy enough to add a second pair at the back if required.


On a related tangent I've been working on a custom tool drawer insert for my CNC bench... still haven't placed all tools yet as I haven't fully decided what I want to put in... also need to make the handle in the front.


http://i.imgur.com/9yTQaYT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/64vAP8O.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2wrVWJA.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmsdlI6nCVQ

Zeeflyboy
31-03-2017, 09:46 PM
So as promised, something more scientific....

I used my touch probe to measure the length of the cross braces. Fairly impressive cutting tolerance really I suppose, the nominal length was 344mm and the longest was 344.34mm while the shortest was 344.28mm so they are within 0.06mm of each other. Would have been even more impressed if they were all 0.3mm shorter :playful:

http://i.imgur.com/iEia1AN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rnzPGoB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1MUxB8U.jpg


So my options are to use some shim material to make them all up to an effective 344.34mm or I can try to nip them all down to 344mm on the CNC... Shimming is probably the least risk route.

Zeeflyboy
06-04-2017, 04:41 PM
Got home today to find FedEx had left me a nice treat:

http://i.imgur.com/xyLmFI0.jpg


My linear motion stuff arrived, and initial inspections it all arrived intact. HG25 rails and carriages could probably be used for seal clubbing if one were so inclined... didn't realise quite how beasty those are.

Quality of the TBI ballscrews looks to be fantastic - finish is excellent, as is the end machining and they are as straight as an arrow with absolutely no discernible slop or play on the ballnut. I intend to do some tests with the glass scales just to see what that tells me but from a visual inspection stand point they seem top-dolla!

some linear motion porn (NSFW?)


http://i.imgur.com/Wtpg5po.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MLR2J4A.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8BJ9979.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/s74dYYQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PAsXLcU.jpg


Had a bit of an order snafu with Thorlabs - got an order receipt and they reserved funds on my bank account but the order didn't get processed. I have spoken to them and re-ordered so those should be arriving shortly. Other than that I'm just waiting on an order from motedis for various extrusion related fixings and then I should have most of what I need for the bottom frame build.

Neale
06-04-2017, 05:51 PM
Out of curiosity, where did the linear motion bits come from?

Zeeflyboy
06-04-2017, 07:58 PM
Topper on aliexpress... I was dealing with a guy that goes by the name of John (I would assume a western friendly name!) - very helpful chap. Just emailed him asking for a quote for all parts with details of what I needed and then they can create a special order for you on aliexpress so you still get the buyer protection afforded by them.

I was one HD16 short (can't really complain since they threw those in for free) and I've sent an email to enquire about that so we'll see what they say. They do both TBI, HIWIN and they do their own factory Chinese made stuff too which would work out quite a bit cheaper. For this machine I went with the HIWIN rails and C3 TBI screws, for my other project I went with some of their own factory manufactured ground screws and nuts which were significantly less than the TBI equivalent (C5 ground 1204 screws are very expensive it seems!). On first impressions those factory own screws look well made too, and while they don't have any discernible play on the nut they aren't quite as smooth to spin by hand as the 16mm TBI ones for El Beast.

Was very happy to see the end machining has been done to a very high standard - bearings are a snug fit and the machining is concentric. All the other parts like rails, carriages, MBA-12C mounts, FK and FF bearing sets seem high quality - So far so good.

As mentioned I want to check the screws against the glass scales just to check lead error and consistency more out of interest than anything else, but having had a good look at them I would be surprised if they were anything other than excellent.

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 09:59 PM
Did a little machining today... found some nice little extrusion connectors at motedis which will work nicely at pulling the two side extrusions together:

http://i.imgur.com/i1mWQS9.jpg


There is a rather pricey drill bit and jig that you can buy to put the hole in the extrusion at the right spot, but I figured it was just as easy and much cheaper to use the CNC instead. I just 3D printed some little work alignment jigs so that I didn't have to re-zero between each setup:

setting up:

http://i.imgur.com/53xS3dV.jpg


Milling using a fairly long 8mm bit to a depth of 36mm

http://i.imgur.com/X6Xwd9m.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MFIeInr.jpg


Fits nicely:

http://i.imgur.com/Agk8lcS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Htp75AJ.jpg


Oh and Thorlabs brackets arrived last week - I've just gone for the front ones at the moment given that they are certainly not cheap. Will wait to see whether I think the rear ones are a good idea or not.

http://i.imgur.com/kNE73g5.jpg

1Jumper10
18-04-2017, 12:30 AM
Looks like it will be an extremely high quality machine!

I have a question which you will probably find quite noobish but I am interested in your glass scales. Specifically, how do you use the glass scales in a feedback loop to control your position? Does the position from the scales get fed back into the motor driver and that corrects any error? Or is the position fed back into your break out board and on to your motion controller?
The reason I ask is if you have position feedback​ from a linear scale any backlash in your drive system wouldn't matter?? Then theoretically one could use c3 screws instead of c7 for instance. Or, standard gearboxes instead of low backlash units. Am I thinking correctly here??

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 12:45 AM
Looks like it will be an extremely high quality machine!

I have a question which you will probably find quite noobish but I am interested in your glass scales. Specifically, how do you use the glass scales in a feedback loop to control your position? Does the position from the scales get fed back into the motor driver and that corrects any error? Or is the position fed back into your break out board and on to your motion controller?
The reason I ask is if you have position feedback​ from a linear scale any backlash in your drive system wouldn't matter?? Then theoretically one could use c3 screws instead of c7 for instance. Or, standard gearboxes instead of low backlash units. Am I thinking correctly here??

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I simply use the glass scales for calibration purposes. They were mainly the answer to my current machine's less-than-optimal screws - I simply adjusted the steps per unit to match the scales. In mach3 you can actually go deeper than that and map the ballscrew to compensate for variation along the screw itself too, but I never went that far.

Certainly it is possible to link a positional encoder such as a glass scale and a CNC controller to give absolute position feedback, but I haven't looked into it too far as for my needs the calibration was sufficient. I think linuxCNC has a way of using it.

It certainly would be a good way of compensating for lead inaccuracies and variation - I don't think it would do a great job of controlling excessive backlash though, but then most semi-decent ball screws don't have much backlash anyway. If you had a lot of backlash it would have to be very quick to arrest movement to stop chatter and poor edge surface finish, there is never really a good solution for backlash other than to remove it.

BTW I think you have the C's backwards, the lower the C number the more demanding the specification... so in your example it would more be a case of it allowing you to use c7 rather than more expensive c5/c3/c0. Of course good glass scales aren't cheap either so it's debatable as to how much saving you would make.

Edit - EMC2 can do it too apparently.

Edit 2 - also came across this quote which pretty much describes what I was thinking regarding it not being a cure for backlash:


But, a caution: Knowing position via the glass scales doesn't
eliminate the backlash problem. The real problem is that the
position of the table is not constrained in both directions by
the servo. it is only constrained in one direction at a time,
and the motor cannot hop from one side of the backlash to the
other instantly, therefore cutting forces and inertia can flip
it from one side to the other faster than the motor can
compensate. This can lead to messed-up parts, broken tools and
general foul language around the shop. So, don't think the
glass scales are some kind of panacea that allows you to do
precision work with sloppy leadscrews.

1Jumper10
18-04-2017, 02:44 AM
Got it. Thanks!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Chaz
18-04-2017, 10:11 AM
Great build. Looking forward to seeing the end results.

What CAD software do you use out of interest?

Also, where did you get the foam from? I'm thinking of doing the same for my garage / setup.

Thanks

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 10:22 AM
Cheers,

Using Fusion 360, foam was from www.efoam.co.uk and I got the downcut router bits from www.cncroutershop.com

Chaz
18-04-2017, 10:30 AM
Cheers,

Using Fusion 360, foam was from www.efoam.co.uk and I got the downcut router bits from www.cncroutershop.com

Many thanks. I assume you use a single flute or similar for the foam? What speeds / feeds please?

Thanks

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 10:32 AM
I found the best cutters to be single flute down cut (I used cutters by Belin), up cut gives you a crappy top edge. Had good results from 3000mm/min and 18-24,000rpm depending on bit diameter. You must use conventional milling too, climb milling gives an awful edge....

Chaz
18-04-2017, 10:33 AM
I found the best cutters to be single flute down cut (I used cutters by Belin), up cut gives you a crappy top edge. Had good results from 3000mm/min and 18-24,000rpm depending on bit diameter. You must use conventional milling too, climb milling gives an awful edge....

Thanks. Which of the foam option did you take? The 'firm' one?
I had found this whilst googling ...

http://www.polyformes.co.uk/azote_foam_colours_densities.html

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 10:37 AM
LD33, pretty middle of the road in density.

Zeeflyboy
13-05-2017, 06:42 PM
So been busy with work and doing stuff in the garden, but I have had time to re-do my coolant system... the previous was a bit ramshackle and I only had air cooling as I hadn't got around to re-installing the coolant side. It's now built into the table so I figured it was worth getting sorted before I did any serious machining as it works for both the current machine and the new one.

I'm using a sil-air compressor & tank, two electronic solenoids for air/coolant control, a pool filter for the coolant reservoir (with it's own regulator) and an air gun for free hand chip clearing and clean up.

I run the air at 20psi and the coolant is just pressurised to around 2psi as that's all that's needed to get it flowing out the end of the nozzle. Coolant wise I got some kool mist #77 which I'm looking forward to having a go with.


http://i.imgur.com/0r1QWHU.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/uCwaTVY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gpurtN0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7tfafDv.jpg

Zeeflyboy
20-05-2017, 09:30 PM
Right, finally a proper bit of machining to show... I did a small re-design on the face plates as they still weren't quite going to fit on my machine and I wanted a slightly wider stance. In order to keep the structural part as a single piece, I made the main piece slightly shorter and then added removable "wings" for the extension.

I've left the wings uncoloured to make them easier to see:

http://i.imgur.com/mYZSdkr.png

Made the front main face plate today:

Started with a jig plate made from SRBP - nothing fancy, just a plate I could machine flat and put some screw threads into, and a slab of 20mm eco-cast plate.

http://i.imgur.com/Rcy7bqW.jpg


After interior roughing, contouring and drilling ops:

http://i.imgur.com/12zJDwl.jpg


I drilled though the m8 screw holes with a 6.8mm into the jig plate and tapped them to allow me to then fix the plate down through those, which then allowed me to the remove the clamps and run the exterior ops:

http://i.imgur.com/XxUgbWy.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mE37ZFO.jpg


Top side finished:

http://i.imgur.com/zEyLVN2.jpg


Then flipped it over and re-fastened to run the rear chamfer:

http://i.imgur.com/MiXXvKH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/I93tOvm.jpg


And done:

http://i.imgur.com/2U4EsnG.jpg

routercnc
20-05-2017, 11:34 PM
Nice work. Looks like it will be a great machine.

I keep meaning to add a finish chamfer on my parts. But when all the other ops are done I end up with a quick run around with a deburing tool because I want to move onto the next part.
Anyway watching with interest.

Zeeflyboy
21-05-2017, 09:10 PM
Cheers, I certainly hope so!

Yeah I like a nice chamfer to finish things off, I don't find it adds a significant amount of time overall but then I am just doing this for fun so I can certainly afford the little extra time.

So whipped out the rear plate today... very similar so it's pretty much a wash, rinse, repeat job just with a few tweaks, so I won't bore you with lots of photos:

top side done:

http://i.imgur.com/d4gNHjX.jpg


Bottom side done:

http://i.imgur.com/o1bB8Qh.jpg


Fitted:

http://i.imgur.com/9bfo0oK.jpg


Bonus points:

mmmm, pointy confetti....

http://i.imgur.com/N716ox6.jpg

1Jumper10
22-05-2017, 01:15 AM
Very nice.
What type of material is SRBP?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

A_Camera
22-05-2017, 10:24 AM
Very nice work. I enjoy following your progress and the quality work you are doing.

Zeeflyboy
22-05-2017, 10:39 AM
Cheers, slow progress but progress none the less!

I'm a bit worried that my bearings in the spindle are on the way out, which is a bummer as its not that old. Can't feel any play but just towards the end of the second piece it makes some very unpleasant noises when cutting until you tweak the rpm out of what I assume is a resonance band. Wasn't doing it before.... I might have to delay the purchase of more materials next month to put the money into a new spindle instead :fatigue: and I had just spent hours getting the tram perfect!

Looking at this combo on ebay at the moment, I guess I could do with a new VFD either for the new machine or to sell with the old one. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260626018545


Very nice.
What type of material is SRBP?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Synthetic-resin-bonded-paper - phenolic resin boards, basically a generic name for tufnol kite type material. In larger sizes it's not exactly cheap (that 300x600x8mm sheet was about £30 iirc) but it's got good machining characteristics, is very dimensionally stable, accepts a thread nicely and has very low water absorption which is a plus when using coolant.

Clive S
22-05-2017, 11:03 AM
Looking at this combo on ebay at the moment, I guess I could do with a new VFD either for the new machine or to sell with the old one. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260626018545

Yes that show the difference between the crap vfd and the good one with the two pics side by side

A_Camera
22-05-2017, 01:37 PM
Cheers, slow progress but progress none the less!

I'm a bit worried that my bearings in the spindle are on the way out, which is a bummer as its not that old. Can't feel any play but just towards the end of the second piece it makes some very unpleasant noises when cutting until you tweak the rpm out of what I assume is a resonance band. Wasn't doing it before.... I might have to delay the purchase of more materials next month to put the money into a new spindle instead :fatigue: and I had just spent hours getting the tram perfect!

Looking at this combo on ebay at the moment, I guess I could do with a new VFD either for the new machine or to sell with the old one. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260626018545
I bought my spindle from the same seller. Note that the spindle earth is not connected, at least in mine it was not. Also, I went for a quality VFD instead of buying that Hy. I am using Modbus and the Hy, while they call it Modbus, does not talk Modbus. If I were you, I'd buy the motor, but would get a different VFD, something of a real brand.

Here is a bunch of 2.2kW VFD sold by the same shop I bought mine from.

https://inverterdrive.com/group/AC-Inverter-Drives-230V/?filter=Power%7c2.2kW%2cControl%7cSensorless+Vecto r&filter=EMC+Filter%7cIndustrial&StockOnly=1

Zeeflyboy
22-05-2017, 04:07 PM
I was interested in modbus actually, not that I know much about it at the moment other than it gives better rpm control - which of those models did you go for in the end? Cheers for the link.

Zeeflyboy
22-05-2017, 06:09 PM
Little more work today, I need to tidy things up a bit in the man cave so good excuse to get the motor mount plates made - allows me to install the screws and motor mounts to start getting things off my desk!

10mm eco-cast plate, done in much the same way as the other parts so far:

First fix:

http://i.imgur.com/cYwaGp1.jpg


Drilled and countersunk:

http://i.imgur.com/lUP8xxI.jpg


Second fix, finished:

http://i.imgur.com/HzSFSF3.jpg


Haven't got all the fixings I need (e.g. no countersunk screws long enough etc) but good enough for a test fit, motors are also placeholders. Motor mounts have 6mm dowel pins for alignment purposes:

http://i.imgur.com/qfiVIIu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ncc2y7c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9LsdQ8k.jpg

1Jumper10
23-05-2017, 01:49 AM
SBRP - that's the first time I've heard that name for phenolic. Got it. Thanks.
Your build is phenomenal. Well done.

Concerning a new VFD and MODBUS: I just recently set up a Hitachi WJ200 on the bench. I initially used 0-10v analog signal to control speed but the RPM drifted around somewhat due to electrical noise. It wasn't bad but I wanted to experiment with a digital solution. I was leaning towards MODBUS but not with much enthusiasm; Lots of configuring, several different components, driver's etc. Fortunately the Hitachi has a pulse stream input for speed control. I set up my spindle control in UCCNC to use step and direction output, connected the pulse stream input of the VFD to an axis output on my BOB and a little tuning later had it working very well. 2 wires, no driver's, no adapters and no RPM drift. Just a suggestion.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Zeeflyboy
23-05-2017, 03:07 AM
Thanks, I'll see if I can find out whether or not the pokeys57cnc can do that... certainly a good option to consider.

charlieuk
23-05-2017, 09:09 AM
great work very nice , what motor mounts are you using?

Zeeflyboy
23-05-2017, 11:37 AM
Cheers. They are MBA12-C mounts with FK12 bearing blocks and matching FF12 at the other end.

Zeeflyboy
23-05-2017, 09:07 PM
Well, wasn't needed at work today so thought I'd be productive!

Machined one set of wings:

Initial setup for drilling/milling

http://i.imgur.com/Sjvdmhp.jpg


Fastened down with m6 bolts:

http://i.imgur.com/zZfTesR.jpg


I totally love adaptive clearing on fusion 360:

http://i.imgur.com/gQ6DDaJ.jpg


flipped over and machined on second side:

http://i.imgur.com/nC5NjL2.jpg


finished parts:

http://i.imgur.com/VVTS1On.jpg


And some fitted pics:

http://i.imgur.com/Fx7nbDg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/z4vxcjn.jpg


I've ordered a new spindle, mine is definitely not quite happy and I'm concerned that soon it may start causing actual problems. There goes next months budget :numbness:

routercnc
23-05-2017, 09:24 PM
Looking good there, keep it up.

I'm also getting into F360 and it has not disappointed me yet. I can't see myself going back to Vectric Cut2D, unless some very simple job comes up.

When you flip the part to machine the other side how are you aligning it? Looks like you are using the profile witness mark in the sacrificial board and aligning by eye?

Zeeflyboy
23-05-2017, 09:31 PM
tah!

Yeah I love fusion, it's absolutely brilliant to me - the modelling is fantastic but the machining side is extremely powerful and well-featured imo, and being able to jump straight from modelling into machining, back again to tweak something and then just having to re-generate the tool path to get the updated tool path is brill.

Flipping the parts varies between the parts, I use dowel pins or the bolt holes, and yes the interior witness line is very useful for checking everything is perfect when just using the bolt holes for alignment if you are careful.

Zeeflyboy
24-05-2017, 09:03 PM
So last bit of work for a while as I'm now pretty much out of alu stock. just whipped out the second pair of face plate wings today.

http://i.imgur.com/zxv0hJQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/w4vmmLe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nc3E6kf.jpg


I like the stance, it's looking purposeful :) extremely happy with how solid the whole thing is feeling so far.

Zeeflyboy
27-05-2017, 11:20 PM
New spindle arrived already... looks/sounds good spinning up, but as per camera's experience it wasn't earthed at all.

Swapped over the connector while I was at it, added an earth and made sure I had continuity to the main body too.

http://i.imgur.com/o0NG0px.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RwvrvVF.jpg


Fingers crossed the spindle was actually the problem!

Zeeflyboy
07-06-2017, 05:09 PM
So managed to find a bit of 20mm plate that was big enough to make another part from, not for the lower frame which I had intended to build first - this is the Z-axis mounting plate but given that I don't have the plate to make any other parts at the moment I thought I may as well crack on!

Few little design tweaks before I made it, I've added a fillet to the risers in order to help fold the brush strip out of the way in a controlled fashion, and I've made one bolt on each of the carriages into a DIN7 shoulder bolt so that the thing should have no choice but to be aligned square with the rails.

forgot to take a setup pic, so here it is getting started after the first drilling ops:

http://i.imgur.com/Hd9wgeo.jpg

Top side done:

http://i.imgur.com/jt9vlQp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VqF5jHe.jpg


Drilled and inserted some dowel pins to align for rear machining, it just needs a pocket to clear the motor mounts cleanly and while I was there a threw a little chamfer around the contour:

http://i.imgur.com/QrsYL4t.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lJuOzkf.jpg


Finished part:

http://i.imgur.com/DCc64Ot.jpg

Chaz
07-06-2017, 06:04 PM
Lovely ----------

charlieuk
07-06-2017, 10:28 PM
very nice indeed!

Zeeflyboy
04-07-2017, 09:07 PM
No news on the CNC front, apart from that I've just ordered a big fat stack of aluminium, which is enough to do pretty much all of the remaining parts (just the spindle mount and the extrusion for the gantry missing). Hopefully that'll arrive sometime towards the end of the week.

However I haven't been totally idle, I have just installed my newest toy which is going to be a bit of a distraction! I haven't used a lathe in many moons, probably not since I was 16 at school, and I have pretty much no idea what I'm doing so it's going to take a bit of time to learn it all. Intentions are to get to grips with using it manually then think about a conversion to CNC.


Wabeco D4000 with DRO's:

http://i.imgur.com/GIHzbJH.jpg


Playing with some test scrap:

http://i.imgur.com/dwHzKPh.jpg


Mmmmm... complicated....

http://i.imgur.com/XBt3SEC.jpg


Anyway, hope to have the aluminium by the end of the week and apart from finishing off the BBQ project, carrying on the new router is top of my list so should see some progress soon.

routercnc
04-07-2017, 09:49 PM
Lathe looks really nice, well done. Colour scheme matches your decor !

I was in the same place as you - hadn't used one since school and had plans for a CNC conversion. But I've been running the lathe for a while now, and made some nice parts, and most operations are pretty intuitive and you can get up to speed with the general stuff quickly. DROs are so handy, I have a colleague who still uses the dials on his lathe and is happy, but I couldn't go back to that system now.

So what I would say is use it for a while before thinking about CNC. I've found that it is pretty quick to make the parts 'by hand' if they are one-offs, and for me at least the CNC conversion idea is now on hold. If I do ever go CNC then I'd look to keep the handles in similar places as MPGs and have the easy option of semi auto operation.

Desertboy
04-07-2017, 10:07 PM
No news on the CNC front, apart from that I've just ordered a big fat stack of aluminium, which is enough to do pretty much all of the remaining parts (just the spindle mount and the extrusion for the gantry missing). Hopefully that'll arrive sometime towards the end of the week.

However I haven't been totally idle, I have just installed my newest toy which is going to be a bit of a distraction! I haven't used a lathe in many moons, probably not since I was 16 at school, and I have pretty much no idea what I'm doing so it's going to take a bit of time to learn it all. Intentions are to get to grips with using it manually then think about a conversion to CNC.


Wabeco D4000 with DRO's:


Playing with some test scrap:


Mmmmm... complicated....


Anyway, hope to have the aluminium by the end of the week and apart from finishing off the BBQ project, carrying on the new router is top of my list so should see some progress soon.

Could this end machine ballscrews?

Zeeflyboy
04-07-2017, 10:30 PM
routercnc - Haha yeah it does go rather nicely doesn't it! Happy accident!

Yeah it has occurred to me that certain jobs are much quicker and easier to do manually, but I think threading and complex shapes like balls/curves are certainly going to be easier on a cnc'd version, especially for someone of questionable skill such as myself... Ideally I would be able to use it both manually and automatically, which I suppose should be possible with a nice pendant. Definitely intend to use it manually for the foreseeable though so we shall see how things go.

Desertboy - In theory, the bore is 20mm so it can certainly physically accept a 16mm ball screw for machining. I believe machining them is a bit of an art though. Probably somewhat depends on the screw and how hardened it is. I think everything I have seen suggests that you need to grind off the case hardening before trying to end machine them.

Zeeflyboy
08-07-2017, 07:06 PM
So been a bit busy with work, but this afternoon I had a bit of a play with the lathe.

Trying to make some nice snug shoulder screws for the alignment of the X-Axis mounting plate. I've just been getting the hang of it all really so only made the one so far.... Think I need a slitting saw to make the slot on the top.

I've tried both brass and stainless steel. Brass is certainly easier to work, but not sure what to go with.

http://i.imgur.com/A34Xu7X.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xqXe9GU.jpg


Test fit:

http://i.imgur.com/XO6Yfal.jpg

Figured out this threading thing... seems it would be much easier to do this sort of operation if it was CNC'd up. The change gears are a bit of a faff.

http://i.imgur.com/HifYGKC.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3yREI1Y.jpg


Fits nicely:

http://i.imgur.com/LysCgIE.jpg

EddyCurrent
08-07-2017, 08:17 PM
Good looking machine and nice work with the machining. It's handy to have another cnc that can do the machining, I had do all my stuff by hand and using templates sometimes.

mekanik
09-07-2017, 10:53 AM
Hi
I know stainless can be a pain to machine but i would still use it in your application, think there would be a problem with brass in ally(electrolosis) if its exposed to moisture.
How are you cutting the thread ? i use single point tool (easy to grind) and set the topslide over to half the included angle so you only cut on one flank.
Machine looks great
Regards
Mike

Zeeflyboy
09-07-2017, 11:14 AM
I'm using a carbide insert threading tool.


http://i.imgur.com/4FKJQca.jpg


The actual cutting of the thread seems fine, just a bit of a faff setting up change gears if one wants to change between different thread pitches or go back to a longitudinal feed.

Both brass and stainless can cause galvanic corrosion with aluminium, not sure if brass is significantly worse or not. Was probably going to use a smidge of anti seize compound whatever material I end up using...

Do you have a good source of Info for final outer diameter and depth of cut for threading?

Edit - so I found this resource http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Thread_tol.html

So if I understand correctly, for example with this m5x0.8 thread I need here:

- Turn the portion to be threaded to 5mm.

- Thread with 0.8mm pitch until a depth of 0.69mm

- Skim across to reduce the outer diameter to say 4.8mm

Is that the correct process?

mekanik
09-07-2017, 01:00 PM
I always reduce the OD before screw cutting(H/8 in that link) then touch the tool on the OD, zero the dials and cut as mentioned earlier using the ofset topslide for infeed, if i have a lot to do i will usually knock up a gauge(of sorts) by tapping some stock with the taps i am using to make the matting holes, for anything large i have a couple of sets of thread parallels and some ovee's for some of the smallish stuff as well and just screw down till you get the effective dia in the ball park.
regards
Mike

Zeeflyboy
09-07-2017, 01:42 PM
Cheers for the info.

Zeeflyboy
11-07-2017, 10:58 PM
So, first things first - big delivery of eco-cast plate! Enough to keep me going for a couple of months I'm sure.

Managed to have the big bugger (the bed tool plate) fall over on my foot as I was moving the packages around. That hurt...

http://i.imgur.com/5yuzBZu.jpg


I also finished off a couple more shoulder screws for the X-axis slider plate, full set now... just waiting for a 1.5mm end mill to arrive to machine the slots in the top.

http://i.imgur.com/AW4xwfV.jpg


And I've designed this little setup for stop/limit switch on the Y-axis using hall effect proximity switches. The brass dial is threaded m6x1 to give 1mm movement fore-aft per rotation for simplicity's sake when setting up, and has a small magnet embedded in the face for the hall effect sensor. Small spring provides tension on the thread.

The mounts themselves will be 3d printed.

http://i.imgur.com/wyNh3ZR.png (http://imgur.com/wyNh3ZR)


And they just tuck in behind the rail mount plates here (both front and back, only the back one shown).


http://i.imgur.com/uUcx0sg.png

JoeHarris
12-07-2017, 12:26 AM
So, first things first - big delivery of eco-cast plate! Enough to keep me going for a couple of months I'm sure.

Managed to have the big bugger (the bed tool plate) fall over on my foot as I was moving the packages around. That hurt...

http://i.imgur.com/5yuzBZu.jpg


I also finished off a couple more shoulder screws for the X-axis slider plate, full set now... just waiting for a 1.5mm end mill to arrive to machine the slots in the top.

http://i.imgur.com/AW4xwfV.jpg


And I've designed this little setup for stop/limit switch on the Y-axis using hall effect proximity switches. The brass dial is threaded m6x1 to give 1mm movement fore-aft per rotation for simplicity's sake when setting up, and has a small magnet embedded in the face for the hall effect sensor. Small spring provides tension on the thread.

The mounts themselves will be 3d printed.

http://i.imgur.com/wyNh3ZR.png (http://imgur.com/wyNh3ZR)


And they just tuck in behind the rail mount plates here (both front and back, only the back one shown).


http://i.imgur.com/uUcx0sg.png

Good to see you're spreading into the house!! Like your sensor setup - how will you lock them in place once set?

tt_mikechandley9074
12-07-2017, 02:45 AM
New to fusion here...Truly admire your skills! All of them.

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

Chaz
12-07-2017, 10:31 AM
New to fusion here...Truly admire your skills! All of them.

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

Agreed

Zeeflyboy
12-07-2017, 11:10 AM
Good to see you're spreading into the house!! Like your sensor setup - how will you lock them in place once set?

Haha, while the wife's away.... thankfully she doesn't browse mycncuk! (I'm a poet?!).

The main blocks are screwed into place, the adjustment for setting home precisely comes from the knurled brass dial. The spring will provide tension on the threads which will stop the dial from moving with vibration, so there shouldn't be any need to lock it further, although I could add a small grub screw that tightens perpendicular to the thread perhaps for an extra locking mechanism.

Mike/Chaz - very kind, but honestly I'm nothing special at fusion. I just poke around like the amateur that I am and if I want to do something that I don't know how to I go and find a youtube tutorial (e.g., like physically modelling that knurling on the dial - found a great tutorial here and just took the general idea of how he did it... I did the chamfering slightly differently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnz1s35vmyg&t=303s).

Slowly as you pick up more techniques through your various projects you become a bit more skilled at figuring out how to make what you want. I certainly find fusion easier to use than e.g. solidworks that I have used in the past.

Desertboy
12-07-2017, 11:29 AM
I do like Fusion's renders they look lovely, when you downloaded the Hiwin models were they coloured already?

If you can make a working CNC machine in Fusion I'd say you must be better than average at Fusion ;) Anyone can place models but making them align properly is a different matter.

Chaz
12-07-2017, 11:34 AM
I do like Fusion's renders they look lovely, when you downloaded the Hiwin models were they coloured already?

If you can make a working CNC machine in Fusion I'd say you must be better than average at Fusion ;) Anyone can place models but making them align properly is a different matter.

Ye, its fairly hard, I managed to get Thor moving on axis by rotating ballscrews on the Y. Once you understand it, its not too bad however I found it complex dealing with all the assets and knowing how to manage them across different drawings and which become 'grounded' and which not. Watch some vids on joints for Fusion.

Desertboy
12-07-2017, 12:04 PM
I don't use Fusion will check it out when I upgrade but will probably stick with turbocad platinum with cam and furniture maker plugin.

I build everything as blocks in turbocad and blocks within blocks it's the only way to build this sort of thing in turbocad without going crazy lol. The main drawing is then made of blocks and you normally edit the blocks not the main drawing.

There's is no mechanical/animation capacity so everything is static in Turbocad.

Zeeflyboy
12-07-2017, 04:46 PM
desertboy - I think I ended up adding the colour, but I'm not entirely sure.


Small bit of progress today.

First up the main bed needed trimming down a couple of mm in width... decided easiest way was to use a hand router and guide rail. I finished by just popping a 1.5mm chamfer on all sides and giving it all a little tickle with some 240 grit on the orbital.

http://i.imgur.com/KlVPTP7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/354ldCh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ijmdbSd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4bquXYD.jpg


And 3d printed the Y-axis sensor mounts

http://i.imgur.com/P8kBbbf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/i9jlEZx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SlFa7sT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pLvdDDI.jpg


Also designed and now printing a drill jig for the bed plate corners. I'll make the brass drill bushing on the lathe.

http://i.imgur.com/bvHwqKa.png

Chaz
12-07-2017, 05:37 PM
Those mounts are nice. Willing to share the STL (or whatever format you have)? Might use it for inspiration to improve my proxy mounts.

Zeeflyboy
12-07-2017, 11:25 PM
sure, just shoot your email over to me via pm

Got my 1.5mm end mill today so finished off the shoulder screws - chuffed with these little bad boys as my first lathe project!

http://i.imgur.com/PObTUBE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gJxghC7.jpg


And this is what they do - in theory the X-axis slider plate is now constrained at all 4 corners, and should be in pretty much perfect alignment with the rails

http://i.imgur.com/4xH43z1.jpg

Zeeflyboy
16-07-2017, 08:36 PM
Couple of jobs done today, nothing overly exciting sadly!

I made my drill jigs after a few changes to my design to allow me to use it in multiple places.

http://i.imgur.com/6gVUSLe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rfZnjQl.jpg


Stage 1 in trying to get a nicely aligned machine, I laid it down on the ecocast bed plate and re-assembled with that as my flat reference.

http://i.imgur.com/sYlVdYb.jpg


Flipped and inserted spring T-nuts for retaining the bed. I also plan to drill through into the long extrusions once the machine is assembled for some alignment pins that will allow the bed to be removed and replaced without losing alignment.

http://i.imgur.com/Re2fmFX.jpg


With the machine now right side up, I had a first go at my method for aligning the rails to the bed reference and thus hopefully each other. I used a 1mm piece of shim brass and using a clamp I moved along the rail tightening as I went. I'm wondering if it is worth making a DRO setup to read divergence from the bed in Z to verify.

http://i.imgur.com/dnaN5HI.jpg


I've been thinking about the easiest way to verify that the rails are equidistant along the whole travel to a suitable level of accuracy. I'm thinking that one the motors and rail mounts are hooked up I could make a piece that spans the gap between the two side mount plates that can float in X. Fit a DRO to that and take measurements at each of the cross support points, shim if necessary. Thoughts?

1Jumper10
16-07-2017, 09:35 PM
I'd forgo the DRO and just surface the bed when you have it all together. It would then be as perpendicular to the Z axis as possible. I think your brass shim method will get you very close to perfect.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Zeeflyboy
16-07-2017, 09:53 PM
Oh there will be a milled tool plate, but that method doesn't work here.

Imagine that one end of a rail is lower while the other rail is totally level. If you machine the bed flat then you'll have a nice level reading from a dro in the spindle making you think you have a flat bed. In reality it would be twisted towards the rail that is lower at one end.

That was the importance of using this eco-cast bed as a flat reference, since its basically the flattest thing that I could find readily available at reasonable cost. To do things properly and get the best end result, it needs to be as closely aligned to the ecocast plate as possible before moving on to milling a separate took plate once the machine is assembled.

It's one of the challenges of mounting these rails on the side. If they were flat on the plate then it would be a non issue.

1Jumper10
16-07-2017, 11:49 PM
I understand what you're saying but the rails don't have to be co-planar when you mount them on the sides. They just have to be parallel. The manufacturer's method of mounting two rails is set one where you want it, then use it as a guide to set the other. So in this case, you'd set your first rail then use your gantry connection to the other side to guide the second rail into position. Either way, you've got a fantastic machine going and I'm sure you will get it mounted to your liking. Enjoying watching it come together.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Desertboy
17-07-2017, 08:11 AM
Looking very good there, I considered a tooling plate bed for my machine but the cost is over £500 + the VAT lol so decided that 25mm sheet of mdf would be ok for now after all.

I love how tidy she looks I can't think of 1 CNC machne you can buy I've seen that looks even close to how tidy and professional yours looks.

Ger21
18-07-2017, 01:46 AM
I understand what you're saying but the rails don't have to be co-planar when you mount them on the sides. They just have to be parallel.

In this case, it's the same thing. If they are parallel, then they are coplaner.

Zeeflyboy
19-07-2017, 05:53 PM
Another day, another part.

Today I bashed out the side mounting plates. I'll need to make some more shoulder screws as I have used a similar alignment strategy to the gantry slider plate to ensure alignment.

http://i.imgur.com/xyLtaiW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1GPMmNi.jpg


I also had my first whoopsy moment on this project - the lead out from the contour of the first part went crashing into the second part and I missed it on the simulation. Oh well, the small gouge will be a reminder that I'm a moron.

http://i.imgur.com/oLYSp3n.jpg


Good indication as to how much chunkier the new machine is - even the mounting plates make the X6's arms look skinny:

http://i.imgur.com/1oHOAZh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hadLv9j.jpg

RobC
19-07-2017, 08:37 PM
Every day I come by and check your post to see what you have done. Super job!

Wolverine4u1
21-07-2017, 12:41 PM
Wow! Zeeflyboy...

What a assume and inspiring post you have .. That is one excellent machine you are building. I have a million questions as I want to build something like yours with my students but I will read more before I ask to many repeated questions. Ones that you already have commented on in your post. Do you have a set of drawings that I could look through?
OH sorry ... my rude .. My name is Dale and nice to meet you...
Thanks for a excellent read.. Dale
Thanks

Zeeflyboy
22-07-2017, 12:42 AM
Cheers, though its a toy compared to some of the beasts on here (looking at you chaz!). Don't have any drawings, what are you after specifically?

Rob - ta!

I noticed today that I've had a bit of a design snafu. My motor mount model was mislabelled - the model is a mb10-c and what I have are mb12-c.

Thankfully I caught it before I made the x or z parts, but it means my ball screws are 3mm too low at the motor end as the mb12-c is a little taller.

So options are:

- Buy 2x MB10-C (bad... about £60 each and it isn't great for consistency)

- Re-machine a new front face plate with the ball screw bearings moved down by 3mm (I'll have to order more aluminium... not great but cheaper than two new motor mounts). Will also require a small design tweak to the ballnut mounts.

- skim the motor mount plates down by 3mm. Downside is they were only 10mm to start with so would be getting a bit skinny.

I'm leaning towards option 2. Really annoying - good lesson to verify all models are correctly labelled before using them! Could be worse, at least I caught it before it caused problems on all the axis.

Wolverine4u1
22-07-2017, 02:26 AM
Hi Zeeflyboy,

You are building almost exactly what I am thinking of building. I was wondering if you had a working drawing and a material list. Great job!

Thanks Dale

Desertboy
22-07-2017, 08:41 AM
Cheers, though its a toy compared to some of the beasts on here (looking at you chaz!). Don't have any drawings, what are you after specifically?

Rob - ta!

I noticed today that I've had a bit of a design snafu. My motor mount model was mislabelled - the model is a mb10-c and what I have are mb12-c.

Thankfully I caught it before I made the x or z parts, but it means my ball screws are 3mm too low at the motor end as the mb12-c is a little taller.

So options are:

- Buy 2x MB10-C (bad... about £60 each and it isn't great for consistency)

- Re-machine a new front face plate with the ball screw bearings moved down by 3mm (I'll have to order more aluminium... not great but cheaper than two new motor mounts). Will also require a small design tweak to the ballnut mounts.

- skim the motor mount plates down by 3mm. Downside is they were only 10mm to start with so would be getting a bit skinny.

I'm leaning towards option 2. Really annoying - good lesson to verify all models are correctly labelled before using them! Could be worse, at least I caught it before it caused problems on all the axis.

Feel for you, I almost made a similar mistake I just assumed all my Hiwin's were HGH carriages but some were HGL which are 4mm shorter. I almost missed it it's only because I put all my Hiwin's together that I noticed there was a height difference and so actually checked with a steel ruler and discovered the recovered Hiwin's were HGL.

Really shows that measuring everything in the real world to make sure you cad models are correct and the right ones is just a good idea.

Can you get tooling plate locally? Where I am there are a few suppliers doing tooling plate they are more expensive than aluminium warehouse but cheaper on small orders because there's no delivery charge.

Zeeflyboy
29-07-2017, 11:07 PM
Not aware of any sadly, but never mind - can order some more stuff next week from alu warehouse.

So given some doubts raised about the accuracy of the shoulder bolts as a way of aligning the mounting plates, I thought I had better check what I was getting. Given the gantry arms will sit on a saddle plate, these mounting plates do dictate the squareness of the Z to the Y axis, so the closer they are to perfect the easier time I will have making sure the gantry is squared up.

I figured this was a good method of checking - in theory if the mounting plate is perfectly level then the reading on the indicator should stay at zero as the plate moves from front to back (indicator is metric, 0.000mm)

http://i.imgur.com/vJleehI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/m969H7s.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0BIxU4X.jpg

Magically, this side was 0.000mm both at front and back, the middle showed -0.006mm which I would guess is due to non-straightness in my current machine's X-axis gantry meaning that there is a slight bow in the top of the plate, but 0.006mm is only slightly larger than the some bacterium is long so I'll forgive it that!

Sadly, my joy at that stunning level of alignment was short lived - the other side showed one end about 0.072mm out between front and back. Not that bad over a 200mm or so span, but not really at the level of what I'm after.

So two options - either I just skim down one of the shoulder bolts and surgically tap the mount into alignment, or I make life difficult for myself and add a shoulder for the carriages.

I decided to try the shoulder method, since i can easily change back and forth between either method then depending on the results of my experiments. The only catch is that since my current machine isn't exactly perfectly accurate, I was largely relying on the flatness of the eco-cast plate to give the required alignment and tolerances... that means machining a pocket to then give the carriages a shoulder to rest on is not ideal as I've then lost the flatness of the plate and am back to relying on my machine's tolerances.

I decided to try machining a slot, then making a counterpart to go in there which would provide an alignment rail whilst still having the carriage mount to the ground surface of the plate.

This is the design:

http://i.imgur.com/SF9qGMO.png


Doing it retrospectively, I would have machined the whole thing back side first, then flipped over for pocketing the heads of the screws... that would have ensured the absolute best possible alignment between slot and mount plate. Seeing as that option is no longer possible, I used some 6mm H7 dowel pins and pre drilled a pattern into the bed so that the plates are aligned as best as I can manage to the machine.

http://i.imgur.com/d3xt28t.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Rk6N7rl.jpg


Then machined the inserts:

http://i.imgur.com/LHqpqRw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XBfQtXV.jpg


They fit very snugly, can't feel any play even without the screws in place.

http://i.imgur.com/sgnw7tW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XHfCxAb.jpg



I then re-ran my indicator test, and while an improvement over the poorer side of 0.072mm, when compared to the perfect side it got significantly worse - it is approximately 0.020mm higher at the back than the front. It is fairly easy to knock it into shape to within around 0.004mm between front and back by loosening the bolts a touch and giving a little tap. I may try just using a little shim material to give a more precise fit. I think aiming for anything more precise than that really is just chasing my own tail since the first test showed the surface isn't flat to more than 0.006mm anyway.

EmilW
29-07-2017, 11:18 PM
Really shows that measuring everything in the real world to make sure you cad models are correct and the right ones is just a good idea.


Thats some realy good and important advice ^^.
Always make sure the real world is up to spec and the reverse :p

Made that error many times myself.

routercnc
30-07-2017, 01:06 PM
Hi Zeeflyboy
The check you doing at the top of post 143 doesn't guarantee that the side plates are parallel to the bed. They might be pointing up or down hill. As you are measuring at one point you won't see this.
So repeat but this time keep the side plate fixed and slide the mag base instead. If that is also ~0 then the two parts are parallel.

Zeeflyboy
30-07-2017, 02:34 PM
Indeed, it doesn't guarantee alignment to the bed, but to the rail/carriages... which are aligned separately to the bed. If the plate was at an angle to the rail/carriages the readings would change as it moves past - I can actually demonstrate that by inducing an angle.

If measuring to the bed then yes, it needs another point of reference... but moving the indicator is enough to induce a small change just when it comes down into contact with a different part of the plate so that's not quite so easily done. I figure it's easiest for me to align the rails to the bed, then align the side mounts to the rails.

routercnc
30-07-2017, 06:05 PM
Indeed, it doesn't guarantee alignment to the bed, but to the rail/carriages... which are aligned separately to the bed. If the plate was at an angle to the rail/carriages the readings would change as it moves past - I can actually demonstrate that by inducing an angle.

If measuring to the bed then yes, it needs another point of reference... but moving the indicator is enough to induce a small change just when it comes down into contact with a different part of the plate so that's not quite so easily done. I figure it's easiest for me to align the rails to the bed, then align the side mounts to the rails.

Understood -carry on !

Zeeflyboy
01-08-2017, 01:20 PM
Just interested in some thoughts of this slightly different approach to mounting the rails in reference to the eco-cast bed. One of the rails in particular has a very slight bend it seems (not unusual apparently from my research), and the method I used of clamping the carriage with a spacer isn't working quite as well as hoped due to what I assume is the steel rail bending down the 20mm bed surface rather than being pulled up during the clamping.

I designed this little spacer which would be screwed into the extrusion and has some up/down movement on the screw slots and are slim enough to pass under the carriage. The idea would be to drill the extrusion to take 6 of these along the length of the Y-axis. they could be butted up against the bed plate and then screwed down into place, then the rail can be clamped against them while fastening. Basically ending up similar to having a machined lip for the rail to butt up against.

http://i.imgur.com/xxd3mX5.png

The plan for making these would be to align them on the machine in such a way that the important dimension (height) would all be cut on the same part of the ballscrew to minimise any potential variation.


http://i.imgur.com/bvw8juv.png

Zeeflyboy
08-08-2017, 10:34 PM
I'm waiting for some new end mills and some motivation to re-cut the front plate after my motor mount boo boo, but in the mean time I made a start on a low profile machine vice I designed. Haven't been very happy with the low profile vice I already have and want something much stronger and hopefully more accurate.

This is the overall design, today I made the fixed end:

http://i.imgur.com/FVuyyq5.png

Basically it uses a bolt pattern on the bed for alignment dowels and bolting down, but gives access right down to bed level (or below with a cut out I suppose!) which will be useful when trying to machine or drill taller pieces. I have since tweaked the design slightly to allow the travelling end to be bolted down as well if required for extra rigidity.

Missed taking a photo of the first bits, but basically vertically it is made up of 2 pieces of plate as I don't have any tools long enough to cut the whole thing in one pass and it allows me a bit more flexibility in how it is made.

After machining the two pieces and bolting them together, I popped them into the machine again and faced them down by 0.2mm on each of the main faces to give a nice flat and square face.

http://i.imgur.com/THup4Az.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IGv3aEk.jpg


And after a quick tickle with some 1500 grit wet and dry:

http://i.imgur.com/rWYHDP4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JQRQJAE.jpg


Once I invest in some anodising equipment the plan will be to give this a nice black anodised finish... assuming the thing works as expected.

Chaz
08-08-2017, 11:50 PM
I'm waiting for some new end mills and some motivation to re-cut the front plate after my motor mount boo boo, but in the mean time I made a start on a low profile machine vice I designed. Haven't been very happy with the low profile vice I already have and want something much stronger and hopefully more accurate.

This is the overall design, today I made the fixed end:

http://i.imgur.com/FVuyyq5.png

Basically it uses a bolt pattern on the bed for alignment dowels and bolting down, but gives access right down to bed level (or below with a cut out I suppose!) which will be useful when trying to machine or drill taller pieces. I have since tweaked the design slightly to allow the travelling end to be bolted down as well if required for extra rigidity.

Missed taking a photo of the first bits, but basically vertically it is made up of 2 pieces of plate as I don't have any tools long enough to cut the whole thing in one pass and it allows me a bit more flexibility in how it is made.

After machining the two pieces and bolting them together, I popped them into the machine again and faced them down by 0.2mm on each of the main faces to give a nice flat and square face.

http://i.imgur.com/THup4Az.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IGv3aEk.jpg


And after a quick tickle with some 1500 grit wet and dry:

http://i.imgur.com/rWYHDP4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JQRQJAE.jpg


Once I invest in some anodising equipment the plan will be to give this a nice black anodised finish... assuming the thing works as expected.

Nice work as always.

Edward
09-08-2017, 06:57 PM
I'm looking forward to your testing the backlash (or lack thereof) in those nice TBI screws and the bearings.

The reason is that I am going to build a similar small machine to yours, albeit with two ballscrews - driven by one motor and initially I was planning to get the Chinese ones from Fred, with double nuts. But these TBI ballnuts you have are also very tempting, they ooze quality.
Edward

Zeeflyboy
09-08-2017, 08:51 PM
I guess double nuts will always have the edge longer-term in maintaining their backlash free nature (although worth noting TBI do double nuts too if that's what you are after).

I wasn't able to measure any backlash in the limited testing I've tried so far, resolution of the equipment was 0.01mm - more detailed testing will have to wait until the machine is assembled I'm afraid, which could mean waiting quite a long time at this rate!

routercnc
09-08-2017, 09:29 PM
Great work on the low profile vice system. I made a very much simpler and smaller one that comes in handy but yours looks better so following with interest.
Will the knurled thumbwheel give enough grip to get pressure on the jaws? Perhaps drill radial holes to allow a tommy bar to be inserted to nip it up?

Zeeflyboy
17-08-2017, 09:03 PM
Cheers, yeah I was thinking of adding holes to allow a bar to help tighten it up.

So my wife gave birth to a happy little baby boy last weekend, which has as you may have guessed been consuming most of my play time! I haven't been able to do any milling but I have made a slow start on my anodising setup. I did a lot of reading up over the past week or two about LCD anodising method, and I've decided that the first thing I want to tackle is the anodising tank itself.

I bought a large polypropylene crate (just look for a number 5 and the letters PP) at homebase, which is big enough to fit the largest pieces I want to anodise at a little over 600mm long.

Problem is that I couldn't find anything with the length or depth required in a narrow width, so the crate is about 80L, probably 60 or so when filled to a level that I require. That's a lot of sulphuric acid, even if it is very dilute when using the LCD method. Seems that the recommended concentration for 6 ASF (amps per square foot) is 1:15, so I will need 3-4 litres of sulphuric acid to mix with 60 or so litres of water. It's also going to be very heavy, so my plan is to build a wheeled wooden frame around this crate to support it and make it easier to move around. There are definitely some logistics to consider with this much acid around and I may end up storing the solution in some appropriate plastic drums when not in use to keep things a bit safer.

To help keep the solution cool and with the happy side effect of displacing some volume from the tank thus reducing the amount of acid required I have made a PVC pipe system that I can pump cold water through to help keep the temperature down. Made using 32mm pipe and chemical welding

http://i.imgur.com/NPxjzO1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IBRbFkh.jpg


Next up will be the cathode bus bar and cathodes. From my reading Aluminium cathodes are better than lead in several regards, and means I don't need to worry about eventually disposing of lead contaminated solution.... but it seems the type of aluminium is quite specific for the best results. 6063-T6 is the specific type recommend, and I managed to find some fairly large extrusion in that formulation.

So far I have just cut up the pieces, the angle extrusion will be bolted to the square bus bar using stainless steel bolts (will be above the solution, not in it).

I am also considering my options for agitation. Easy one is air bubbling, but I've seen a few using acid-proof pumps to move the solution around which seems like a better option and would give me a mechanism for pumping the acid out into drums for storage and vice versa.

Anyone who has any experience with anodising I'm always up for helpful info given I'm a noob.




http://i.imgur.com/X6bCkA9.jpg

1Jumper10
17-08-2017, 09:38 PM
That contraption looks a little bit like a baby crib. Dont accidentally anodize the newborn :)

Congrats!
Watching your build log with interest.

Nickhofen
17-08-2017, 09:45 PM
Congratulations for the new member!

Zeeflyboy
17-08-2017, 10:42 PM
That contraption looks a little bit like a baby crib. Dont accidentally anodize the newborn :)

Congrats!
Watching your build log with interest.

That would certainly be one way to get into the newspapers....

Cheers chaps!

Boyan Silyavski
18-08-2017, 04:48 PM
I used 6mm size tubing :hysterical: , remember also the aeration, is really important to move the liquid.

Nickhofen
18-08-2017, 05:24 PM
I used 6mm size tubing :hysterical: , remember also the aeration, is really important to move the liquid.

From the baby? :hororr::hysterical:

1Jumper10
19-08-2017, 01:19 AM
I've never anodized before but if it's important to agitate the solution of sulfuric acid, I would be reluctant to use air to do it. I wouldn't want to create any kind of vapor to begin with and then I wouldn't want it being carried out into immediate area where it could cause problems. Breathing and corrosion and such. Is there some reason you couldn't use a motor driven polyethylene agitator? Just a thought...

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Clive S
19-08-2017, 08:42 AM
I've never anodized before but if it's important to agitate the solution of sulfuric acid, I would be reluctant to use air to do it. I wouldn't want to create any kind of vapor to begin with and then I wouldn't want it being carried out into immediate area where it could cause problems. Breathing and corrosion and such. Is there some reason you couldn't use a motor driven polyethylene agitator? Just a thought...

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I have never done any work with sulphuric acid either but the resident forum member has done so much in his life so he has to be the go to person for all advise on all matters. So it MUST be the correct way to agitate the acid. (I don't think) perhaps with an 80 cfm compressor.:excitement::stupid:

A bit of reading here http://www.tsh-technic.com/sites/default/files/documents/Air%20Agitation%20Sparging%20Systems%20for%20Elect roplating%20Applications-update.pdf

Desertboy
19-08-2017, 09:23 AM
Doesn't seem that complicated to anodize at home

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GccTVfMiIIo

http://astro.neutral.org/anodise5.shtml

I'm sure you know all this already but I find it interesting ;)

If you need to keep the solution agitated a small maxijet water pump would probably be fine they are designed for semi acidic environments I have a load of spare working pumps you can have one for free if you want and if it melts who cares. But leave it a small test jar first over night I think lol be annoying to destroy your acid with melted plastic.

Boyan Silyavski
19-08-2017, 04:53 PM
I have never done any work with sulphuric acid either but the resident forum member has done so much in his life so he has to be the go to person for all advise on all matters. So it MUST be the correct way to agitate the acid. (I don't think) perhaps with an 80 cfm compressor.:excitement::stupid:



These kind of remarks are absolutely unnecessary for the good tone here in the forum. I feel sorry when seeing such unfounded attitude.



I did the aeration using a simple silicone tube which i pinched many times with needle having previously sealed its end. Its important for the reason of evacuating the air bubbles that form when anodizing and moving the water to equalize temperature faster. The tube was connected to small silent air compressor with regulator , but any compressor from fridge would do, in that case a way should be found to vent out the unnecessary pressure build up .

Jonathan
20-08-2017, 11:32 PM
Anyone who has any experience with anodising I'm always up for helpful info given I'm a noob.

Don't underestimate the amount of de-ionised water you need. You have to use copious quantities of it at every step to keep the parts clean, else you'll see white deposits appear on the parts at the end. The deposits sometimes polish off, but it's best avoided ...

Zeeflyboy
21-08-2017, 12:02 AM
Yeah I'm guessing as Boyan suggested it may be worth getting a reverse osmosis setup... can use the water in coolant mix too (and the iron ;) ).

Desertboy - cheers for the offer. Sulphuric acid is a bit more of a bitch than most acids as it's an oxidising agent. Seems many plastics just can't deal with it so you have to be quite careful about what you put in it... Not so bothered about damaging a pump, more bothered about contaminating the acid.

most DIY kits seem to just use air agitation and an aquarium pump to supply the air. We'll see whether the budget can stretch to a decent pump next month!

Zeeflyboy
24-08-2017, 03:09 PM
Back to the build!

So had a chance to make my rail alignment doohickeys:

http://i.imgur.com/1n65YYA.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aMjuOP5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4qO62TL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kwu3PZM.jpg


My plan to cut them so that the critical height is on the same part of the ballscrew seems to have worked well:

13.499mm

http://i.imgur.com/BaTkHVp.jpg

13.500mm

http://i.imgur.com/QPTPRDa.jpg


Biggest variation i found was 13.497 to 13.503, so max variation of 0.006mm (0.00024 inches if you are that way inclined), so pretty happy with that.


I 3d printed a jig and made some drill bushings on the lathe, looks like a shocked robot:

http://i.imgur.com/tjaaNk3.jpg

After drilling, tapping and a quick de-burring I gave the 20mm bed plate a good clean and laid the machine down on it upside down. Wiped each piece and area with an alcohol wipe to try and minimise any dust or dirt before fastening the rail spacers into position against the bed plate as a reference.

http://i.imgur.com/7zRe8mL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/90aqn9D.jpg

Then finally gave the rails a good wipe with a vanguard anti-corrosion wipe (hopefully minimise any naughtiness between the steel rail and milled aluminium mounting surface) before mounting them against the rail guides.

http://i.imgur.com/lhoav8o.jpg


Next up will be re-making the front plate after my motor mount height snafu, then I can crack on and get this lower frame finished off before moving on to the Z-axis next.

routercnc
24-08-2017, 06:27 PM
Good work Zeeflyboy. Like your thinking - in the absence of a large surface plate (£££) you've done the next best thing.

Desertboy
24-08-2017, 06:52 PM
Back to the build!

So had a chance to make my rail alignment doohickeys:

http://i.imgur.com/1n65YYA.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aMjuOP5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4qO62TL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kwu3PZM.jpg


My plan to cut them so that the critical height is on the same part of the ballscrew seems to have worked well:

13.499mm

http://i.imgur.com/BaTkHVp.jpg

13.500mm

http://i.imgur.com/QPTPRDa.jpg


Biggest variation i found was 13.497 to 13.503, so max variation of 0.006mm (0.00024 inches if you are that way inclined), so pretty happy with that.


I 3d printed a jig and made some drill bushings on the lathe, looks like a shocked robot:

http://i.imgur.com/tjaaNk3.jpg

After drilling, tapping and a quick de-burring I gave the 20mm bed plate a good clean and laid the machine down on it upside down. Wiped each piece and area with an alcohol wipe to try and minimise any dust or dirt before fastening the rail spacers into position against the bed plate as a reference.

http://i.imgur.com/7zRe8mL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/90aqn9D.jpg

Then finally gave the rails a good wipe with a vanguard anti-corrosion wipe (hopefully minimise any naughtiness between the steel rail and milled aluminium mounting surface) before mounting them against the rail guides.

http://i.imgur.com/lhoav8o.jpg


Next up will be re-making the front plate after my motor mount height snafu, then I can crack on and get this lower frame finished off before moving on to the Z-axis next.

0.006mm!

Excellent work I guess you don't need to write in your ebay descriptions please allow 1-3mm for measurement errors lol.

Zeeflyboy
24-08-2017, 07:54 PM
Cheers chaps.

Desert - I was more impressed when I wheeled the first one off and it was 13.500mm which is exactly what the model was supposed to be. Pure luck, my machine isn't that accurate lol. The variation is pretty impressive but that comes from cutting on the same part of the screw I'm sure.

Zeeflyboy
25-08-2017, 05:48 PM
Always painful when you are going back over the same steps, even more so when you mess up too....

Re-made the face plate today with the re-positioned bearing mounts to account for the different height motor mounts. I also tweaked the design to give more adjustment around the bearing mounts to hopefully make aligning them with the screws easier.

Interior done:

http://i.imgur.com/CMtfngV.jpg


Using my new 10mm roughing end mill with 10mm DoC, 1.4mm tool engagement, 2000mm/min and 14000 rpm I blasted through the exterior roughing, was just in the middle of congratulating myself on how much better I'm getting the hang of fusion's CAM abilities until the very last bit where it had decided to machine out one of the bolt holes that was occupied by a steel bolt - result was a new but now broken $30 10mm roughing end mill. FML....

http://i.imgur.com/DyXBH1c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zkUup1T.jpg

Anyway, aside from a broken endmill at least it had finished the exterior before committing suicide... So I ran the finish paths and all was well, but then I went a goofed again and ran the wrong tool path - so it tried to do a chamfer with a 6mm flat end mill. Hit stop before it got too far but still an unfortunate mark on the front right side. Just a cosmetic issue thankfully, but still annoying.

http://i.imgur.com/yajSuNI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/H9qStXt.jpg


Good news is that at least its done and the error with the motor mount height is fixed.... One day I'll be able to make a simple part without messing it up, I'm sure. That's the dream!

Zeeflyboy
03-09-2017, 03:16 PM
Made one of the screw mounting plates:

https://i.imgur.com/iTwQ7MI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hhjxC2S.jpg


Flipped for the rear side, it was previously held down at the near edge too but I removed the front clamp to run the chamfer.

https://i.imgur.com/xmkbE9S.jpg


Unfortunately it's way too tall to fit into the CNC for drilling the sides, so I 3D printed another jig and made some drill bushings on the Lathe:

https://i.imgur.com/J4x9JDT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/D9avqBA.jpg


Nice snug fit:

https://i.imgur.com/n6ys2Kk.jpg


Drilled and tapped:

https://i.imgur.com/bfuPXpc.jpg


Assembled:

https://i.imgur.com/QNd4zjY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YOVH2bI.jpg


Fitting to the machine reminded me that I need to flip the nuts on the screws and also showed a small design tweak that's required to then give the nut clearance, other than that though the fit is spot on regarding heights and spacing.

Desertboy
03-09-2017, 03:18 PM
Damn, that's some very nice work there.

routercnc
03-09-2017, 07:09 PM
Sorry to hear about your troubles in post 170. Annoying when the part is big like that and expensive to replace.

Drill guide templates are very handy to make sure the holes are precisely where you want them. Got some more to do in my build later on.

When you flip the ball nuts have you got some metal tubing to roll them onto to keep the balls in place? If not I can measure the tube I use so you can turn something down.

Good work - keep it up

Zeeflyboy
03-09-2017, 09:17 PM
Cheers desert.


Sorry to hear about your troubles in post 170. Annoying when the part is big like that and expensive to replace.

Yeah very annoying, but could have been worse I suppose...


When you flip the ball nuts have you got some metal tubing to roll them onto to keep the balls in place? If not I can measure the tube I use so you can turn something down.

They came with some plastic tubes actually, but thanks. Of course I tried to use the Z-axis 1604 ball screw's tube for the 1605 and the end result is that tonight I learned how to re-pack a ball nut lol. Thankfully I did it all in a sandwich bag so no balls were lost. Helps when you use the right tube :applause:

Other than that I made the required design tweaks and modified the plate... I wanted to give the cutout that clears the motor mount a little more clearance and I also made room for the flipped nut.

Aligned the plate using dowels to make sure it was square to the axis, then used a probe to determine zero... occurred to me that perhaps not many have seen the touch probing screen on mach4, quite convenient to use for most circumstances:

https://i.imgur.com/KxHjVwS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/p2I3rbL.jpg


modifications made:

https://i.imgur.com/XV96Bh8.jpg


Fitted to the machine, for ballscrew alignment the plan is to assemble by the fixed position motor mount here:

https://i.imgur.com/4elEajM.jpg


Then drive it up to the top with the floating bearing mount screws loosened off, then re-tighten once up there... ensures the screw is lined up to the linear rail at both ends. So far seems to have worked as it's nice and smooth at both ends with no binding.

https://i.imgur.com/x59Cn48.jpg


Now I just need to make the other side :apologetic:

routercnc
04-09-2017, 07:37 AM
Looking good.

Nickhofen
04-09-2017, 12:13 PM
Looking good.

+1

Zeeflyboy
08-09-2017, 03:20 PM
ta!

So nothing exciting, bit of a wash rinse repeat but in mirror image:

https://i.imgur.com/mv3Jj2B.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nYbjzlX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BOIJcgC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Oa5Pqbb.jpg


And now got both fitted... next up will be the Z-axis I think.

https://i.imgur.com/wARZjML.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aw2O21j.jpg


I also thought I'd just put this little video of my current machine munching some aluminium... I think she does a pretty good job for a 6040 type machine. This particular bit I did with a 6mm x 22mm single flute end mill with 2000mm/min, 1.5mm axial engagement and 5mm depth of cut at I believe 19k rpm.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrBFBDh_gpw&feature=em-upload_owner

Edward
08-09-2017, 03:52 PM
Hi Zeeflyboy,
Very nice speeds for a small router. I only use about 400mm/min with an 8mm endmill and 0.5 radial cut on my milling machine, so I am rather jealous. I'm starting the process of building a router similar to your new one, but with dual screws/pulley on the X instead of your two motors, so I am following your progress.

One thing I noticed, although your finish looks very good, in the area circled in red you have these vertical lines that are kind of similar to what I sometimes get with my milling similar plate thickness. Do you know what it is causing it?

Edward
22756

routercnc
08-09-2017, 09:37 PM
Hi Zeeflyboy,
Very nice speeds for a small router. I only use about 400mm/min with an 8mm endmill and 0.5 radial cut on my milling machine, so I am rather jealous. I'm starting the process of building a router similar to your new one, but with dual screws/pulley on the X instead of your two motors, so I am following your progress.

One thing I noticed, although your finish looks very good, in the area circled in red you have these vertical lines that are kind of similar to what I sometimes get with my milling similar plate thickness. Do you know what it is causing it?

Edward
22756

I get similar lines. I've always put it down to insufficient machine stiffness and slight ball screw backlash (~50um typically). Commercial machines which are very stiff and heavy, with low or zero backlash don't have them.

routercnc
08-09-2017, 09:43 PM
Good work. It machines aluminium nicely all things considered.

The plates you have just made- any reason they were not a single plate instead of 2 separate plates? I can't remember what the upper structure was going to be but I'm sure it would have benefited from this extra stiffness.

Zeeflyboy
08-09-2017, 09:54 PM
I assumed the same, ultimately there is a lack of stiffness and some small amount of backlash which would explain a small amount of surface imperfection. Its pretty much just a cosmetic issue and quickly polishes out.


Router - yes it would no doubt benefit from being a single piece but its too large for my machine to handle. It might be an upgrade that the new machine can make for itself later on.

Zeeflyboy
18-09-2017, 05:14 PM
I treated myself to a couple of new toys recently, and thought I would share how I have been trying to tweak the machine into shape given it's had a lot of use recently and probably needs a little tune up.

For squareness, it's a bit tricky as the X-axis actually has a small bow in it on mine which makes square a moving target. I decided to take the centre of the bed as a reference as that's where I do the majority of my work and then use points 100mm either side of that to set the squareness. As it turns out between those points the X-axis bows towards the front of the machine by about 0.05mm but fixing that is more work than I want to take on given I'm building a new machine anyway and the deflection on this machine renders it somewhat moot.

Anyhoo, back to my method of squaring:

I treated the Y axis as my fixed one and the X will be knocked into shape by loosening the screws on one side of the gantry base (both side and bottom screws) and tactical use of a mallet to knock it into shape.

First I drilled two holes for some precision dowel pins along the Y-axis span, and used that to edge up my square reference which happens to be a thorlabs precision angle bracket from the new machine I'm building. A machinist square would be good to use too, but the one I ordered is sadly out of stock and I have to wait another month to get it...

Next up I put my dial indicator on the machine and ran to my first reference point (centre plus 100mm) and zeroed the dial. Run to the second reference point (centre minus 100mm) and then knock the gantry arm gently with the mallet until it reads zero. This will have slightly changed zero down the other end, so wash rinse and repeat. If you stop off in the middle you can check how straight your gantry is now as well.

https://i.imgur.com/19C0Pd2.jpg


Next up I really wanted to accurately tram the spindle, so I bought myself a tramming gauge. You could DIY one, even using just a single dial indicator if you wanted to save money, it's just quite useful to have the two as it saves time when knocking the spindle straight. If you do make yourself/buy one with dual indicators, its worth mentioning that you need to zero both indicators from the same reference point as this removes any issues with runout or different length indicators.

You want to make sure you are doing this from a level reference, so make sure you skim whatever surface you are doing it on with a fairly fine step over to get a nice flat surface to start from. First up I checked the angle in the Y-axis as this one needs to be shimmed and if you have done X first, you undo all your hard work when you loosen the screws to insert the shim material... mine showed the top of the spindle was leaning towards Y minus, so I loosened off the screws (be careful not to let the spindle drop) and inserted a small piece of shim material at the bottom of each side (the small bit of brass under the bottom screw).

Bit of trial and error, also noting that tightening the screws will change this reading so you need to check with the screws fully tightened up, but in the end I managed to get it to this point - each gradation is 0.001" so it's about 0.0005" out of square in Y across the length of the tramming tool. I'll take that!

https://i.imgur.com/gVyRPYr.jpg


Next up was to knock it into shape in X, so I loosened off all the screws except for the top right which helps hold the spindle in place. That one I just slightly loosened off to help the mount move but not so much that the spindle became loose. Use your surgical mallet skills to knock the spindle until both sides read the same and then for convenience I re-zero... as you tighten up the screws again it will move a bit, so just tighten then a little at a time and keep tapping it back into square until you finally have them cranked down nice and tight. On this one i Managed to get it to within what looks like a bit better than 0.005" or so (less than half of a gradation out).

It is then worth having a little spin the whole way round to make sure it's all still where you expect and that you didn't mess up your previous work in Y. So all said and done I believe if my maths is correct the spindle is now square to within about 0.006 degrees (calling it 0.015mm out across the 125mm span of the tramming gauge).

https://i.imgur.com/GAhPWAO.jpg


What will be quite interesting is that now that I have actually quantified the tram and the square, I will test it again after a few machining operations to see if it stays put or drifts.


Anyhoo, not saying this is the only or even the best way of doing things but it's just what I found easiest... it's all easily achieved in an afternoon.

Chaz
18-09-2017, 05:58 PM
Awesome stuff. I need to do the same. I know I have a slight offset in the spindle mounting which I Can shim out but not yet done. It has minimal impact on parts but its not ideal.

Nickhofen
18-09-2017, 07:00 PM
Nice method !!!

Zeeflyboy
19-09-2017, 05:11 PM
Managed to crack out the back plate for the Z-axis today:

First fixture

https://i.imgur.com/PbHANDE.jpg


Second fixture (I actually had two screws in the right side holes as well but took them out before I remembered to take a pic)

https://i.imgur.com/iGmzKgQ.jpg


My replacement 10mm roughing bit arrived last week so I got another chance to use it after breaking my previous one with some stupid G-code. It very happily munches away at 14k rpm, 10mm DoC and 1mm axial engagement at 1500mm/min... makes short work of this 20mm plate as it's all done in two passes! Looking forwards to being able to up the feed rates and axial depths on the new machine I hope though.

Finished part:

https://i.imgur.com/r7bItM1.jpg

charlieuk
20-09-2017, 09:19 AM
I'm not sure why but I cant seam to see the pic's on the last few pages they have a little square with a x in it? anyone getting the same? the first ones still work fine. I get the same on booth my computers and my phone

Chaz
20-09-2017, 09:28 AM
Works ok for me.

mekanik
20-09-2017, 11:04 AM
Me to

routercnc
20-09-2017, 01:31 PM
I can see the pictures

Nice work on the squaring and tramming.

Zeeflyboy
20-09-2017, 02:17 PM
Charlie, if it's working for everyone else might just be that imgur was over capacity when you looked and the older pictures were cached... try clearing your cache and refresh.

Thought I'd experiment a little with the seals for the Z-axis. I have some red material on order so we can stick with the colour scheme but for now to dial it in I'm just using what I've got which is a nice orange!

So this is the part, I've designed it now so that it has a locking flange to prevent it from going walkies... it should just push into the top/bottom plates and wedge in place.

https://i.imgur.com/E6uc8yg.png

https://i.imgur.com/mbvXvTC.png


So off to the printer to try it out... I'm using a material called Cheetah by ninjaflex. It's a fairly firm but flexible rubbery material (shore hardness 95A) which is abrasion resistant, resistant to chemicals and pretty tough.

https://i.imgur.com/cOEYhje.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MJLvY7X.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Pbqde1t.jpg


Here you can see the flexible rubbery nature:

https://i.imgur.com/YlollN5.jpg


Fit is excellent, but maybe just a smidge tight. I need to check it with the part actually held in the plates, but it may just need a very slightly enlargement of the interior cut out.

https://i.imgur.com/0lg9mTv.jpg

charlieuk
20-09-2017, 10:17 PM
strange I just tried the other halfs mac and that is the same, I can still see all the new pictures in other threads though. o well I'm sure it looks great.

routercnc
20-09-2017, 10:29 PM
Charlie:

How about this - the last photo showing the 3D printed part on the rail:
22836

Zeeflyboy:
Great timing - I've been thinking about how to seal the rails on my Z axis. I've planned ahead and have tapped holes in the base of the Y axis to accept a plate with some sort of brush/seal, and I was playing with ideas for the actual seal. I was thinking about cutting them out of a small piece of plastic with the router, and inserting them into the plate, as you have done.
But 3D printing is a much better idea as you can get tight into the corners, cheers for that. Also by chance bumped into a colleague today with a 3D printer and he is now lined up ready to make me some parts. I just need a slot this week to get back onto the CAD and draft something up as a trial.
I think as you say it is a matter of fine tuning something to keep the worst out but not rub too much.

charlieuk
20-09-2017, 10:45 PM
yes that shows up

Zeeflyboy
20-09-2017, 10:55 PM
Really odd - I've been using imgur for all the photos so nothing has changed... I really can't think why it only affects you, and only for recent pics... how odd.

RouterCNC - I just printed one out which I enlarged the cut out by 0.15mm on and I think it's perfect. Given you are using 20mm rail too you are welcome to have my model to modify as needed to make the exterior fit your machine? You use fusion right?

If you need them printed out I can print them out and pop em in the post for you too if that helps. Flexibles can be a tricky thing to get right, some printers cope better than others (bowden types really don't tend to do great for example) and stuff like cheetah is pretty expensive to buy if he doesn't already have something comparable.

routercnc
20-09-2017, 11:25 PM
The fusion file would be great. Maybe zip it up and attach it to a post in this thread ?

Thanks for the offer to make some parts - he's been printing all sorts for ages plus has a CNC machine so I'll give him a go at making something. Thanks again

Zeeflyboy
20-09-2017, 11:29 PM
Hopefully attached for you.

Davek0974
21-09-2017, 04:36 PM
HiWin do a scraper/seal add-on kit for their blocks, I used it on my mini-mill.

Its a steel scraper plus another wiper/seal for each end along with longer screws etc, fits easy and works well. ;)

Zeeflyboy
21-09-2017, 05:23 PM
Where's the fun in that! :excitement:

Desertboy
21-09-2017, 05:36 PM
I'm with Zeeflyboy on this one but mostly because I find pay to be a dirty word. Also it's nice to solve things with your own ingenuity even if sometimes your the only one that sees the brilliance lol.

Davek0974
21-09-2017, 07:48 PM
Where's the fun in that! :excitement:


I'm with Zeeflyboy on this one but mostly because I find pay to be a dirty word. Also it's nice to solve things with your own ingenuity even if sometimes your the only one that sees the brilliance lol.

Fair-do's to you, just thought i'd throw it out there ;)

Wal
22-09-2017, 01:08 AM
Beautiful. This build oozes quality. Looking forward to seeing it run.

Wal.

Zeeflyboy
23-09-2017, 04:48 PM
Very kind, but if you want to see quality go visit routercnc's thread ;)


So I was going to show you some lovely Z-axis end plates, but I goofed them up (I know, shock horror right?). I must have put in the incorrect stock dimensions as it just missed the back edges by a fraction... something also went a bit wrong when doing some interpolated drilling and my X axis shifted by 1mm. Something I've never seen happen before on this machine.... Can't have been the motors skipping steps as they are closed loop and would have faulted so something perhaps happened on the PC end. As it happened it wasn't a big deal, just resulted in some messy and over sized internal screw holes but combined with the other mess up and I'm just going to bin them and start over... I can take the opportunity of having seen them to do a few little design tweaks at least.

So close but no cigar:

Roughing - 8mm DoC, 1mm WoC, 1500mm/min

https://i.imgur.com/gd3yiQq.jpg


Finish pass done

https://i.imgur.com/HjjWD2W.jpg


Flipping for reverse chamfer on the seal holders:

https://i.imgur.com/JWvIGQH.jpg


Shame I need to re-do them!


Anyway, in happier news my RoverCNC spindle mount arrived today and it's a beauty... I ended up paying almost as much in shipping as in cost of the part sadly, but it was worth it - so much nicer than the extruded type mounts you see everywhere, this one has been machined from a solid block. You can see the difference in how smooth the bore is and just laying down the spindle in the bottom half gives a super snug fit with no wobble. Should be a great improvement compared to the one on my current machine.

https://i.imgur.com/Q14iHyx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4Nhjsqf.jpg

Mmmmm... chunky.


I also had a bit of a brain wave (or rather realised I was being stupid as usual), there was absolutely no need to separate the rail wiper seals from the central seal given that I was 3D printing them. I joined them up into one big unified seal instead which is a much better idea.... Nailed the printing, I made the error of not accounting for thermal shrinkage which is why they were a touch tight on the rails. A scale factor increase of 0.7% in X and Y put the dimensions spot on the money once the material had cooled and they are now a beautiful fit.

https://i.imgur.com/HhVZIfr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yyZcxzh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/V0hAfgM.jpg



Quick test with the rails:

https://i.imgur.com/FO4wHqM.jpg


And top plate

https://i.imgur.com/QXYzceC.jpg

routercnc
23-09-2017, 05:05 PM
Great work Zeeflyboy. Seals are looking really good too

Nickhofen
23-09-2017, 06:45 PM
BAD@SS!!! :cool::cool::cool:

Nickhofen
23-09-2017, 06:46 PM
BAD@SS!!! :cool::cool::cool:

Damn autocorrection, I wanted to write "It looks grate"!!!

Desertboy
23-09-2017, 08:36 PM
When I look at yours and routercnc work I don't think you're putting my work to shame I think I would have to climb a very long ladder to get as high as shame ha ha ha.

You make it look easy and as my mate said when I showed him your thread why don't I just do it like you do lol.

Zeeflyboy
23-09-2017, 09:39 PM
Cheers guys!


When I look at yours and routercnc work I don't think you're putting my work to shame I think I would have to climb a very long ladder to get as high as shame ha ha ha.

You make it look easy and as my mate said when I showed him your thread why don't I just do it like you do lol.

I make it look easy? Despite my constant messing things up lol?


Fair-do's to you, just thought i'd throw it out there ;)

Absolutely, I never even knew they existed so glad you mentioned them.

Zeeflyboy
24-09-2017, 10:11 PM
Sometimes I wonder if I should do fewer but less incremental updates - not sure which you guys would prefer?

Anyway, for now a little extra work done today.

I've done a few tweaks to the Z-axis design after having a long think about how it's going to be assembled and aligned on the machine. To that end I've added an eccentric bushing to the top of each carriage mount and a 6mm dowel pin at the base to act as a pivot point. The idea being that I can install the backplate on the machine, lining it up square to the gantry arm. One dowel pin will provide a hangar while installing and ensure its central on the slider.

Then I can use a dial indicator to align the right carriages to a machinist square based off the bed, which will ensure the rails are aligned 90 degrees to the bed in X, then use those to dial in the left carriages.

Only had time to do one side of the carriage mounts today but It came out very nicely and for once I managed to make a part without messing anything up. When it cam to reaming the dowel pin hole I just had a very low feed rate and span the spindle by hand... I'm thinking there must be some sort of cunning arrangement I can come up with in future to spin the spindle slowly using a separate motor and some HTD belt/pulleys for things that need super low rpm like reaming/thread milling.

Anyhoo:

Top side finished

https://i.imgur.com/fAtblWt.jpg


Flipped and bottom side done (used dowels to align with Y, then probed the reamed hole to determine zero)

https://i.imgur.com/l9pgsQa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aY6zzTg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LhAPVTv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qlwkofb.jpg


I also designed a top seal for the motor mount, took a few prints to get it perfect as the CAD model of the motor mount isn't entirely correct in the non-critical dimensions:


https://i.imgur.com/kMXVU28.png

https://i.imgur.com/TTPqwKb.png

https://i.imgur.com/aakTBHa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ReLzVCl.jpg

Nr1madman
24-09-2017, 10:13 PM
There are some supersexy parts there..
The vipers are a great idea but looks better still.
Im also envious of the spindle bracket!

Well.. I know what I want for mk2 of my machine :D

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalk

routercnc
25-09-2017, 08:25 AM
Lovely work once again well done.

I would say release updates when you are ready and at a rate that feels enjoyable. It's easy to think everyone is tapping their fingers wait for new information but you are doing this for free and for fun so don't feel pressurised.

Chaz
25-09-2017, 09:15 AM
Awesome work.

Some questions.

What 3D printer / material are you using?

In terms of your bed, you always seem to have screws for workholding in the correct places. Are you drilling the holes (or milling them) and then drilling / tapping into whatever material your bed is made from on your mill? I struggle with workholding at time yet you make it look easy.

Thanks

Zeeflyboy
25-09-2017, 10:07 AM
I'm using my trusty old makergear m2... I've had it for about 5 years now and it's still churning out lovely prints. I actually designed myself a new super duper printer which I'll make one day once this CNC machine is done, but that's really just because I want a bigger beast with quad extrusion and dual independent heads. Oddly enough makergear just announced their new version that does have dual independent print heads, but I would still want the larger build platform to make best use of them (I love the idea that you can print two sets of the same items simultaneously, effectively doubling output of parts if you need more than one of anything).

Material is some stuff called Cheetah by ninjatek. It's a flexible rubbery material a bit like hard skateboard wheels, 95A on the durometer scale... fairly easy to print with if you have a direct extrusion head. I believe it even works with some bowden printers.

Workholding wise for these big pieces I have been using a 12mm sacrificial sheet of SRBP, skim it level and then where the parts have suitable holes I run a "jig drill" drill cycle through into the bed that then allows the hole to be tapped and a screw inserted without moving the part. For the exterior clamps I either try to find a previous hole that works or just drill a new hole and tap. I keep going until either I skim down too far or it becomes like swiss cheese and then I replace with another sheet.

It's not the cheapest option I'm sure (a sheet that size costs around 30 quid) but it's a wonderful material for stability, machinability, coolant resistance and accepting threads/dowels etc.

Chaz
25-09-2017, 10:50 AM
Thanks for that. Can you explain a bit more about how you might do the drilling / tapping into the SRBP in one step without moving the part?

Thanks

Zeeflyboy
25-09-2017, 02:07 PM
Nothing particularly clever I'm afraid... I took some more photos today of the second carriage mount so perhaps an explanation with the pictures is best.

So on this part for example, I have some 5.4mm holes in the part for M5 screws.... After I've finished drilling/milling those holes while the part is held down using external clamps I would add an extra drill cycle using a mm drill bit on the holes I want to use as a fixture, setting the hole top as the stock bottom and the hole bottom as stock bottom minus eg 10mm.


External clamps, run the milling/drilling of internal holes to be used as hold down points, then run jig drilling cycle.

https://i.imgur.com/i5WkeIS.jpg


Once that's done I used compressed air to blow the SRBP dust clear, using a hand drill I whizzed a spiral m5 tap down through to the bottom of the hole and again give another blast of compressed air to clear the hole.

While the part is still clamped down with the external clamps, I then find some appropriate length screws (important that they aren't too long, thus preventing proper tightening down of the part, but you want to make sure they at least get a good 5-6 turns of engagement so that you can snug them down tight. It pays to have a nice assortment of various length screws in typical sizes - m4, m5, m6, m8 is what I tend to use.

Once those are tightened up you can remove the external clamps which lets you run the remaining cycles... just be sure to check your tool paths to make sure it isn't going to try to mill out those holes again as it'll find a bolt there of course (adaptive can be a little bugger for that, just make sure you have ticked "rest maching" and selected "from prior operations" so that it doesn't try to remove the same material twice).

https://i.imgur.com/sNfXzsR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mPfvENz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aPBiLO8.jpg


If you've thought about it a little before hand and the part is suitable, you can use the same holes to hold it down on any bottom side operation, I like to use 6mm dowel pins in the bed to butt the part up against to ensure it's aligned to the axis.

With it held down, I find a suitable area to probe to define zero again

https://i.imgur.com/IDjg2bN.jpg


If possible I do a quick gross error check to make sure zero looks good:

https://i.imgur.com/xhbOkDD.jpg


And then run the rear operations:

https://i.imgur.com/CjNauu1.jpg

Chaz
25-09-2017, 06:11 PM
Thanks, excellent explanation.

I suspect you can also just set your retract height higher than the bolt height. It might waste a bit of time but better than cutting into the metal etc.

Certainly easier if you do rest machining or similar as you have said but you never know what path it will take when it crosses over. Always good to watch the CAM 'preview' before actual cutting IMHO.

Zeeflyboy
25-09-2017, 07:21 PM
Yes absolutely, make sure if the bolts are sitting proud of the surface you set an appropriate retract height. I actually always just set it at 25mm as a matter of habit, it doesn’t waste much time at all as all moves back down to the top height are done at rapid’s speeds.

Edward
26-09-2017, 03:47 PM
I just got a piece of SRBP to try. It's incredible that it's made out of resin and paper, it looks really tough and quite heavy. I only got a 400x300 piece, in 15mm, as it's quite expensive, I think you use larger sheets?. I am guessing that Tufnol is a brand name, but the same thing?

I just wanted to ask roughly how thin does it get before you discard it, with regards to having enough thread left in the holes with sufficient strength to clamp the piece, 8mm or so? If you use M5 bolts, I suppose you need a good 5mm of thread? Secondly, I assume that you don't skim it every time you cut a new piece, provided you have enough of a flat, clean area left for the next piece to sit flat, is that right? Also, what's your favourite tool for skimming the SRBP? Does it machine similarly to Delrin? (the only plastic I have machined).
Keep on posting about your progress, the more the merrier:)

Edward

Chaz
26-09-2017, 03:49 PM
I just got a piece of SRBP to try. It's incredible that it's made out of resin and paper, it looks really tough and quite heavy. I only got a 400x300 piece, in 15mm, as it's quite expensive, I think you use larger sheets?. I am guessing that Tufnol is a brand name, but the same thing?

I just wanted to ask roughly how thin does it get before you discard it, with regards to having enough thread left in the holes with sufficient strength to clamp the piece, 8mm or so? If you use M5 bolts, I suppose you need a good 5mm of thread? Secondly, I assume that you don't skim it every time you cut a new piece, provided you have enough of a flat, clean area left for the next piece to sit flat, is that right? Also, what's your favourite tool for skimming the SRBP? Does it machine similarly to Delrin? (the only plastic I have machined).
Keep on posting about your progress, the more the merrier:)

Edward

Its pricy alright, £60 for my size machine. That said, if its makes machining a lot easier, its worth it. Also keen to understand if there are variations of this material that might be worth looking at.

Edward
26-09-2017, 03:55 PM
I paid £44.32 including the £15 for UPS, for the 400x300 piece. I guess if you ordered a few pieces it would just be the one-off transport fee. At least they provided an invoice, so I can discount it off my tax as a legit expense.

They also call it Phenolic Sheet.

Edward

Desertboy
26-09-2017, 04:44 PM
At prices of Tufnol I'd glue it to a 12mm sheet of mdf then you can mill through the whole lot screw wasting any.

If you have issues with losing 12mm of travel on the Z then you really have issues lol

Chaz
26-09-2017, 04:47 PM
At prices of Tufnol I'd glue it to a 12mm sheet of mdf then you can mill through the whole lot screw wasting any.

If you have issues with losing 12mm of travel on the Z then you really have issues lol

Problem is that MDF absorbs fluid and 'pulls' apart.

Davek0974
26-09-2017, 05:09 PM
Yep, MDF is pretty duff for metalwork, great for woodwork.

At these prices, has anyone priced up a slab of aluminium?
Its pretty reasonable in 12-15mm thicknesses.

Chaz
26-09-2017, 05:12 PM
Yep, MDF is pretty duff for metalwork, great for woodwork.

At these prices, has anyone priced up a slab of aluminium?
Its pretty reasonable in 12-15mm thicknesses.


Oddly, was thinking the same. £86 + VAT + Del for 12mm tooling plate at 650 x 450. Normal plate is still £75.

Edward
26-09-2017, 05:18 PM
Yes, similar prices. So what's the attraction? Is Tufnol easy to skim, I bet it skims like butter and really fast, probably quite messy, though not as messy as MDF and harder?

Zeeflyboy
27-09-2017, 01:08 AM
Tufnol is a brand name, Kite is their equivalent product. Tends to be a bit more pricey than the generic SRBP... I've been buying attwater brand from ebay.

As for why it's better than alu, it's probably not really! It does skim very quickly and easily with minimal mess (I skim 0.3mm at 6000mm/s using a single flute 10mm cutter)... I like to cut past the work piece in general so I set a cut through of around 0.2mm which then gets completely cleared out at the next 0.3mm skim.

The main advantage to my mind is that it's softer than alu so more forgiving of plunging down into it quickly so for drilling/tapping it's quicker. Also if cutting CF/FR4/G10/whatever then the fishtail burrs I use for that wouldn't like cutting into alu below the piece but they don't care about cutting into SRBP.

Alu can also leave a bit of an upward edge/burr where it's been cut which might mess with your perfect level bed until the next skim. SRBP doesn't leave any burr that I can see.

Both would be perfectly valid, I just tend to use SRBP for the above mentioned reasons. It is also cheaper than tooling plate... eg a board of 600x400x15mm is £50.46 vs £99.36 for the same size of tooling plate from Alu warehouse (both including VAT). That's half the price... adds up when you consider it's a sacrificial board that your machine will consume over time.

I used a 12mm board which is a bit cheaper than the 15mm... I think it will be too full of holes before I skim it down to a height that's unusable, so there's probably a balance to be found between over-paying for a thicker board that won't be used to it's potential before becoming too full of holes. Will depend on how big your bed is and how hole intensive your work is!

It is also worth considering that you don't necessarily need a piece to cover your whole bed, only big enough for the largest piece of work you need to hold down.

Edward
27-09-2017, 01:16 AM
Thank you Zeeflyboy, you are very helpful and I see your logic. The piece of SRBP that I got has slight burring at the edges from the cut, easily removed with a light touch of sandpaper. I also got the same Attwater brand.
Edward

Chaz
27-09-2017, 09:07 AM
Tufnol is a brand name, Kite is their equivalent product. Tends to be a bit more pricey than the generic SRBP... I've been buying attwater brand from ebay.

As for why it's better than alu, it's probably not really! It does skim very quickly and easily with minimal mess (I skim 0.3mm at 6000mm/s using a single flute 10mm cutter)... I like to cut past the work piece in general so I set a cut through of around 0.2mm which then gets completely cleared out at the next 0.3mm skim.

The main advantage to my mind is that it's softer than alu so more forgiving of plunging down into it quickly so for drilling/tapping it's quicker. Also if cutting CF/FR4/G10/whatever then the fishtail burrs I use for that wouldn't like cutting into alu below the piece but they don't care about cutting into SRBP.

Alu can also leave a bit of an upward edge/burr where it's been cut which might mess with your perfect level bed until the next skim. SRBP doesn't leave any burr that I can see.

Both would be perfectly valid, I just tend to use SRBP for the above mentioned reasons. It is also cheaper than tooling plate... eg a board of 600x400x15mm is £50.46 vs £99.36 for the same size of tooling plate from Alu warehouse (both including VAT). That's half the price... adds up when you consider it's a sacrificial board that your machine will consume over time.

I used a 12mm board which is a bit cheaper than the 15mm... I think it will be too full of holes before I skim it down to a height that's unusable, so there's probably a balance to be found between over-paying for a thicker board that won't be used to it's potential before becoming too full of holes. Will depend on how big your bed is and how hole intensive your work is!

It is also worth considering that you don't necessarily need a piece to cover your whole bed, only big enough for the largest piece of work you need to hold down.

I agree with this. The other option as a middle ground might be some good plywood. Ive got some and will use it and see how it goes.

Zeeflyboy
27-09-2017, 07:20 PM
So re-visted my end plates with the correct size stock this time...

I also tweaked the designs a little, adding a port for the limit switch wire to the top plate and changed the bottom plate to accept a standard FF12 bearing mount (along with some room for adjustment).

(correct size!!!) stock:

https://i.imgur.com/DotATAO.jpg


First op done and bolted down

https://i.imgur.com/PjcazaH.jpg


Top side ops done

https://i.imgur.com/xbqOgX1.jpg


Bottom sides:

https://i.imgur.com/6ay7VyN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/W3PN5Y4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oblZPvO.jpg


And the back section of the Z-axis is looking a bit more complete! Still needs limit switch installing, side plates and seals machining up, then I can move on to the main front plate and tramming plate.

https://i.imgur.com/DGTvjjs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/f6tbQ39.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0oBHgKo.jpg


Good view of top seals:

https://i.imgur.com/mQs69jp.jpg

Chaz
27-09-2017, 08:40 PM
So re-visted my end plates with the correct size stock this time...

I also tweaked the designs a little, adding a port for the limit switch wire to the top plate and changed the bottom plate to accept a standard FF12 bearing mount (along with some room for adjustment).

(correct size!!!) stock:

https://i.imgur.com/DotATAO.jpg


First op done and bolted down

https://i.imgur.com/PjcazaH.jpg


Top side ops done

https://i.imgur.com/xbqOgX1.jpg


Bottom sides:

https://i.imgur.com/6ay7VyN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/W3PN5Y4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oblZPvO.jpg


And the back section of the Z-axis is looking a bit more complete! Still needs limit switch installing, side plates and seals machining up, then I can move on to the main front plate and tramming plate.

https://i.imgur.com/DGTvjjs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/f6tbQ39.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0oBHgKo.jpg


Good view of top seals:

https://i.imgur.com/mQs69jp.jpg

Excellent work as usual.

Nr1madman
27-09-2017, 10:28 PM
It's so beautiful that I think I'm gonna cry! ;)

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalk

AlexDoran
29-09-2017, 10:45 PM
The vacuum pods on our smaller machine are made from Tufnol / SRBP (Use the stuff from DirectPlastics), i think its absolutely horrible stuff to work with, stinks and iirc some types can be carcinogenic. On the larger machine the vacuum pods are machined from a dense type of Phenolic Plywood, much nicer to work with and doesn't appear to be affected by moisture, the stuff we get is 80mm thick.

On a separate note this machine is epic can't believe i only just found it! That Z Axis is a thing of beauty!

Alex

Boyan Silyavski
30-09-2017, 09:05 PM
Tufnol is a great stuff to work with. The same settings you use for hardwood just slow feed rate to 1/3 and machines perfectly.

Zeeflyboy
02-10-2017, 10:38 PM
Thanks chaps.

Alex - the attwater SRBP msds seems pretty benign.. I would be surprised if it was any worse than MDF for you anyway! http://www.attwater.com/downloads/srbp-health-safety.pdf

I think as with all these things it's best to avoid inhaling any dust anyway.


Made the front plate today, bit more of a challenge to hold down as it doesn't have sufficient through holes... instead I had to spilt the operations up a bit.

First setup - machined the ends and the back side for rail mounting holes, HD16 mounting pattern and some temporary alignment block holes to make sure the first rail is straight to the edge of the plate.

https://i.imgur.com/8hBh1mL.jpg

Then re-clamped and ran the side machining:

https://i.imgur.com/hAg0tht.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OnergjD.jpg


Drilled a few 6mm dowel pin holes to butt the piece up to when flipping for top side operations:

https://i.imgur.com/x7AR5Fp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/o7vzf1n.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/S9Io4Hj.jpg


Unfortunately I don't have any correctly sized m5 bolts for mounting the rails. Amazing - seems no matter how many screws I have on hand, I never have enough of the correct size!

Desertboy
03-10-2017, 08:00 AM
Of course you don't have the right sized bolts that's because I have the right size ones that you want and you have the ones that I want ha ha ha.

Because god hates CNC builders otherwise he wouldn't have let them design 15mm hiwin greasing points lol.

routercnc
03-10-2017, 08:47 PM
I hear you Zeeflyboy and Desertboy.

That sinking feeling when you realise the only screws you have in the draw are too long and they have to be cut down and the ends dressed. Still, it beats being too short and the job not progressing until the postman has arrived.

Maybe we need some sort of online swap-shop !

AlexDoran
04-10-2017, 11:26 AM
Just to follow up with the Phenolic Plywood, tested it by leaving some water on it for a few hours but it didnt seem to absorb much - if any. I suppose a layer of lacquer would totally seal it.

22952

22953

Thanks

Alex

EDIT: Not sure why the site keeps rotating my pictures 90Deg -_-

Zeeflyboy
05-10-2017, 05:54 PM
good stuff :)

So another day another part... the Z-axis (or should that be Zee-Axis? :yahoo:) inches closer to completion. At this rate I may be finished by mid 2018.

Today is the turn of the tramming plate.

https://i.imgur.com/ziCvGMr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0O6nQmU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/coxwuJ0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qTfStCs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yqaEFQm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bQ8CMCj.jpg

Zeeflyboy
05-10-2017, 05:54 PM
Fitted to the existing parts of the Z-axis ( needs a shoulder bolt in top right and eccentric bushing in top left) and showing full up and full down travel positions:

https://i.imgur.com/MYtY1bm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/g3UL2j4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nRVYucB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ILYo0Tq.jpg


So next up really I need to get around to making the eccentric bushings, and I also need to knock up a little adjustable Z-limit trigger piece. Then it'll be the turn of the side plates to finish off the Z-axis completely.... I decided to allow myself a little "pointless" flair on the side plates and will try to make some inset CF pieces just for aesthetics.

https://i.imgur.com/60QMPkk.jpg

Edward
05-10-2017, 07:37 PM
Now that I can see where you've placed the motor mount, it gives an idea of the total height allowed from the nut to the base.

This is the one thing where I have agonised when messing about with my design. It's difficult to see in yours because the pic is not head on, but it looks like the spindle nut base falls about parallel to the edge of the extending plate, maybe slightly lower. One thing that I am sure you have thought about is that the clearance of the sliding plate is above the holding clamps for the part, in cases when you are cutting something deep using the full flute length, you don't want the sliding plate to touch the clamps.

Edward

Zeeflyboy
05-10-2017, 09:50 PM
Actually that's just the angle of the pics, I designed it with the idea of having the bottom of the spindle nut approximately 1cm below the bottom of the mounting plate for that very reason. Obviously it's fairly easy to adjust to taste simply by moving the spindle slightly lower/higher in the mount.

So I had a go at creating my first eccentric bushing this eve. Seems to have come out quite nicely given that I have no idea what I'm doing!

I started off with some hexagonal stainless steel stock, and installed my 4 jaw chuck on the lathe. First job was to turn down to a diameter I could measure off to calibrate the scales.

https://i.imgur.com/SBStKM9.jpg

Then turned down to 11.99mm

https://i.imgur.com/QJq2RY2.jpg


I was designing it to the specs of a specific commercial product as before I got the lathe I was intending to buy them. So I had to copy the slightly odd offset of 1.07mm from centre:

https://i.imgur.com/DpegfED.jpg


Then drilled out the bore, flipped and faced the top side.

https://i.imgur.com/pCcRJD9.jpg


End result:

https://i.imgur.com/pEHgow8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VhYtHen.jpg

AlexDoran
06-10-2017, 09:44 AM
Man that Z Axis really is awesome! Far too nice to actually use and get dirty :witless:

Alex

Desertboy
09-10-2017, 05:20 PM
You know Zeeflyboy you're a bastard because you've upped the bloody bar! Now we all have to aspire to your level not going to even attempt it with my present build but the next build I'm going to be copying you and then pretending like that's how I was always going to do it ;)

Between you and routercnc I feel like going home, ripping all my hair out and crying lol.

Nr1madman
10-10-2017, 11:33 AM
You know Zeeflyboy you're a bastard because you've upped the bloody bar! Now we all have to aspire to your level not going to even attempt it with my present build but the next build I'm going to be copying you and then pretending like that's how I was always going to do it ;)

Between you and routercnc I feel like going home, ripping all my hair out and crying lol.Hahaha you say what we all feel :D
Usually you just have to dig deep, go back to the drawing board and make a winning concept.
With these guys I have to admit defeat and bow humbly..

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Zeeflyboy
10-10-2017, 08:07 PM
Very kind, but I wouldn't put my work in the same category as routercnc.

In hindsight I think one big improvement to this Z-axis would be to use longer rails and Z-plate, such that in the full down position the top of the Z-plate is flush with the top of the main body, thus keeping the unit sealed at all times when down in a cutting position. That would also allow one to space the upper carriages up without losing travel, thus giving an even more rigid setup.

Oh well, there's always a v2 ;)

JZimmy
16-10-2017, 09:34 PM
Very kind, but I wouldn't put my work in the same category as routercnc.

In hindsight I think one big improvement to this Z-axis would be to use longer rails and Z-plate, such that in the full down position the top of the Z-plate is flush with the top of the main body, thus keeping the unit sealed at all times when down in a cutting position. That would also allow one to space the upper carriages up without losing travel, thus giving an even more rigid setup.

Oh well, there's always a v2 ;)

I have been watching your build and I have been amazed by your quality of work. I am starting to design my router and will definitely be taking some ideas away from your build.

I agree with your comment about increasing the length of the rails but more for the fact that your seals might see some wear the more they run over the edge of the rail unless you have a good lead-in on the rails. I doubt it will be much of an issue here but thought I would point it out.

Keep plowing away at the build, I enjoy the updates!

JZ

Zeeflyboy
16-10-2017, 10:52 PM
Did a little more work, haven't finished these side plates yet but thought I'd show where I'm up to.... they still need milling on the underside but I haven't quite decided how I'm going to do that yet.

So first up I just whizzed out some inserts from 0.6mm matte finish carbon fibre. Normally I would cut submerged but given it was such a thin piece and an extremely quick job I just used the vac with hepa bag and hepa filter.

For cutting CF I only ever really used double sided tape. Works very well and the waterproof variety doesn't mind being submerged...

https://i.imgur.com/2Z05vCA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6jTZ96r.jpg


Out of interest I get asked occasionally what I use for cutting CF - my favourites are these diamond coated fishtail burrs from BZT

https://i.imgur.com/o99cq4O.jpg


So given that these side plates were going to be awkward to hold down without using a larger piece of alu and leaving tabs in I thought I would try something I read about online. I have in the past used double sided tape to hold down parts but the tape either tends to be a bitch to remove the part and clean up the residue or too weak and all types I have tried have allowed too much movement in the part which then leads to vibration of the part during cutting.

I saw someone do this and thought I would give it a go since these parts aren't particularly critical! My only reservation was that it might all go horribly wrong while using coolant, but I dialled back the mist to a bare minimum and it seemed to work fine.

So the basic idea is that you lay down some strips of masking tape on to the part and then lay corresponding pieces down onto the bed.

https://i.imgur.com/LcCNvLD.jpg


You then put a little superglue on the top of the tape and while lining it all up, push the plate down firmly into place. I turned the tape on the plate over the top to make it easy to line up before then removing the excess once it was stuck down.

https://i.imgur.com/lZtx6VJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9UyHzy4.jpg


I was actually very surprised at how firmly the plate was held in place - no wiggle like you can get from double sided tape. Anyway, proof is in the pudding as they say and it worked exceptionally well.... sounded great when cutting and the chips didn't dance on the surface as they do when using normal tape, suggesting the part wasn't able to vibrate. One day I will need to make myself a nice vacuum setup but one project at a time!

https://i.imgur.com/5LMLuYs.jpg


Before removing the plates I just checked the fit of the inserts in case anything needed tweaking but they were a perfect fit

https://i.imgur.com/3ncvVQW.jpg


CF plate isn't stuck down yet, just resting in place so it's not sitting perfectly flat for those with keen eyes:

https://i.imgur.com/qftzEPw.jpg


So anyway, next up I need to mill the underside and then print the side seals...

AlexDoran
17-10-2017, 02:21 PM
Dude that is going to look badass!

Edward
17-10-2017, 06:08 PM
One thing I am curious to know is if you have experienced the Z axis rolling downwards on its own accord -due to the weight- when the stepper is not switched on.

On my milling machine, the weight of the mill head made it freewheel downwards when the power was off. I remedied this by using a belt drive, as opposed to the direct coupling you have on your Z.

I assume the the spindle/mount and sliding plate/rails are not heavy enough to overcome the natural thread retention of the ballscrew, so this may not be an issue at all with a router, as I've seen a lot of guys using direct coupling.

Also, did you go for medium or light preloading for the Hiwin carriages for the Z? I am thinking Medium for the Z, Light for everything else, though I guess it not so important..


Edward

Nickhofen
18-10-2017, 10:33 PM
Ah my eyes!!! Build porn again!!!

Zeeflyboy
18-10-2017, 10:47 PM
I have been watching your build and I have been amazed by your quality of work. I am starting to design my router and will definitely be taking some ideas away from your build.

I agree with your comment about increasing the length of the rails but more for the fact that your seals might see some wear the more they run over the edge of the rail unless you have a good lead-in on the rails. I doubt it will be much of an issue here but thought I would point it out.

Keep plowing away at the build, I enjoy the updates!

JZ

Cheers - Yeah I'm not too worried about wear (I can print new seals for a few pennies after all) but I do think there are improvements to be made to this Z-axis design. I was thinking about just making a longer plate with longer rails (and indeed probably will at some point) but I'm actually thinking a v2 will be change enough that it wouldn't be worth modifiying, rather just build an entirely new Z for the v2.




One thing I am curious to know is if you have experienced the Z axis rolling downwards on its own accord -due to the weight- when the stepper is not switched on.

On my milling machine, the weight of the mill head made it freewheel downwards when the power was off. I remedied this by using a belt drive, as opposed to the direct coupling you have on your Z.

I assume the the spindle/mount and sliding plate/rails are not heavy enough to overcome the natural thread retention of the ballscrew, so this may not be an issue at all with a router, as I've seen a lot of guys using direct coupling.

Also, did you go for medium or light preloading for the Hiwin carriages for the Z? I am thinking Medium for the Z, Light for everything else, though I guess it not so important..


Edward


Well, not sure yet on this one. On my X6 it stays put when powered off (and actually requires a fairly good shove to start moving down), so I would expect this one will too - it is a little heavier with the large Z-plate and rails on the moving side, but that will likely be more than offset by the fact i'm using a 4mm pitch screw rather than 5mm like on the X6.

My carriages are all ZA (medium) preload.

Nick & Alex - cheers chaps :)