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JOGARA
15-02-2017, 03:28 PM
Hi everyone.

I am pretty new to CNC and milling but I have a couple months to learn.
Been watching a lot of videos on YouTube so starting to build up a bit of basic knowledge.

My project requires a case for the electronics and sensors as well as mounting fixings.
I have been developing it using 3D printing and I was originally going to manufacture the cases this way but while I am okay with this for my own use, selling it as a product for people to use I am not so keen on.


So I am looking at using a CNC milling machine to make the case instead so it is a nice solid product.
Why not aluminium? Well we are using wireless transceivers inside the product so metal is out of the question.

My idea is to then use 15mm polypropylene sheet instead to get the same sort of light wight properties and strength (small sized case, about 100x45mm).


Are these China CNC milling machines okay for this?
I have seen them eat 10mm aluminium so this should be fine right?


My understanding of milling plastic is speed and sharp tools to reduce heat and thus the plastic melting.
There is less horse power needed as it is more speed than anything, though I still want a powerful spindle for future proofing..

I am also looking at the 6040 over the 3040 for future larger projects.

Software wise I use 123D Design for modelling the case.
For the CNC I plan on using Mach4 for controlling and Fusion 360 for the CAD stuff.


I understand that the controllers that come with the China CNCs are pretty, crap though they get the job done.
So was thinking of getting something like a TinyG right off the bat.
I am pretty good at electronics, I designed the circuitry for this product using micro controllers and built and customised a 3D printer so wiring up a new controller is fine with me.

I am aware that these China machines don't have end stops. So would be adding them as well.


Am I on the right path here?


As for hardware, I am stuck between ordering a complete package and picking things individually.
My thinking, ordering something like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Stock-4-Axis-6040-1500W-CNC-Router-Engraver-Engraving-Milling-Machine-220V-/262844665954?hash=item3d32c35062:g:UXQAAOSwDFNWFJQ E would be best for just getting everything I need.

Or do I order everything separately so I can get the upgraded spindle and not pay for the controller if upgrading to the TinyG is much better than using stock?


I am sure a lot of this has been asked before. I have done a bit of searching but thought it might be worth just posting and seeing what people say.

Thanks
Jack,

Robin Hewitt
15-02-2017, 07:50 PM
The best plastic for machining is hard polyurethane. Thermoplastics and nylon tend to string, acrylic melts and then congeals around your tool. If you are thinking to machine plastic, try a chunk of Tufset or similar. Mind you, it will spoil you for anything else.

njhussey
15-02-2017, 08:11 PM
I love machining Acetal, it chips beautifully gives a nice smooth finish. Cant comment on the Ting G controller but if this is potentially for business then I'd build your own control panel, make your own PSU etc. etc. You'll be updrading the 6040 after a while so at least you'd have decent electronics...

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JOGARA
15-02-2017, 08:26 PM
I was looking at this stuff. https://www.cutplasticsheeting.co.uk/polypropylene-sheeting/black-polypropylene
Cost wise it is perfect and I can get it in good little custom sized sheets that will do one case each.

Googled "hard polyurethane" but not seeing much. Got some more info on that Robin?


Not heard of Acetal before, though I am no plastics expert :p
Will take a look at it.

I would like to encase the machine once I get it all setup and working though this will be after the production run due to limited time.
Plan on having it in a tower case like a HAAS milling machine mainly so it is all self contained and can be plugged in and turned on.
Moving house soon so having it like that will help with storage and keeping stuff clean.

My main thing about the electronics is having it sort of reliable long term.
I would like to just be able to turn it on and not have a problem that then takes a day or a week to fix because the China circuit board decided to blow up or drivers die...

njhussey
15-02-2017, 08:32 PM
Have a look at https://www.directplastics.co.uk/engineering-plastics/ they have lots of plastic stuff there [emoji2]

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JOGARA
15-02-2017, 08:46 PM
Have a look at https://www.directplastics.co.uk/engineering-plastics/ they have lots of plastic stuff there [emoji2]

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Ah nice, thanks.

jono5axe
15-02-2017, 10:02 PM
Hello Jack

If I understand correctly, you have a project that you are now ready to commercialise. This will require manufacturing of plastic electronics housings and mounting brackets, for which you are considering cnc milling as the manufacturing method.

I would just suggest at this point that this possibly not commercially sound, and that you should consider vacuum forming, injection molding (or other plastic molding process), or closed mold GRP, etc. You may also consider purchasing an existing enclosure from one of a multitude of manufacturers/supplier of cheap enclosures.

CNC milled plastic may be commercially viable for simple flat profiles, or if only small quantities are required, but for example, an electronics enclosure (even a small one) milled from thick stock material has a high degree of material wastage.

Having said that, you may still need a CNC router for assisting to make your prototype vacuum forming molds and/or composites molds, which would typically be made in wood or aluminium. Another option, using your 3D printer, is that you could 3D print molds/patterns for brackets/boxes/etc then take composites molds from the printed models. You can also send 3D printed models of molds to an investment casting foundry and receive back an accurate aluminium or steel casting ready for prep/use as your plastics/composites mold.

I would recommend looking at vacuum forming, as it is quite simple, especially for small parts.

Regards, Jono

JOGARA
16-02-2017, 01:25 PM
Hi Jono

My case has 5 PCBs in it in different orientations and types of mounting as well as fixings for mounting onto tripods (technically for injection moulding but work fine when heated and pressed into plastic).

I have looked at injection moulding but the starting costs put me off quite a bit.
And vacuum forming and off the self cases wont work because of the requirements of the internal layout.


The case is basically two flat 15-16mm sheets pushed together with their internals milled out for the PCB, sensors and connectors.
Works out at around 5 per case using Acetal and 1 using Polypropylene. So material cost is not a problem with these solutions.

This is why I am aiming for milling because it should give me the quality people are after with a product as well as it being at a low price point similar to the 3D printing solution.


Unless if I am missing something here? xD

Zeeflyboy
16-02-2017, 03:10 PM
Well it's certainly a lot more viable for low scale production than 3D printing is... It all comes down to how much volume you are expecting.

Injection tooling is indeed pretty expensive, only really makes sense if you are selling relatively high volumes and can spread the cost against at least several thousand units. I didn't pay for it myself but when we had the tooling made up for a drone I designed I think it was in the order of $10,000 to get the molds made (in china).

You would probably find a CNC a useful addition even just from a prototyping stand point - 3D printers are great, but the ability to work with PCBs, a variety of plastics, composites and some metals opens up more options to you that might be useful... not to mention much faster for making most things.

6040 is very much a generic term - some manufacturers are better than others, especially on the electronics front... One advantage of just buying a frame and adding your own electronics is that you can buy some better kit which you can then transfer to another machine if you decide you need something bigger or better.

I would recommend that you go for one with proper profile rails (e.g. HG20) rather than round rail - they are far superior. That particular machine you linked to actually simply has completely unsupported round rail for the X-axis gantry - don't bother with that... I had a similar machine in the past and there is a significant amount of flex from that design even when just pushing the spindle with your hand.

jono5axe
16-02-2017, 08:03 PM
Hello Jack, you've obviously done your homework on that stuff, and your part/design/method sounds to be even quite elegant.

Re injection molding, tooling should fit in a $5k envelope I would have thought, especially if your 'half shells' can be a mirror of each other, i.e. a single part.

Regards, Jono

JOGARA
16-02-2017, 08:37 PM
Spent a few hours looking into control boards and stuff.
People where saying the parallel boards that come with the China CNC machines are not worth it (because they are limited to just doing stepper control) so I would rather not use them.

Boards like the TinyG are controllers in themselves (I thought they worked with Mach3, bad YouTubers misleading me there), they don't run with software like Mach3 because they are hardware controllers.
They take the Gcode and control the motors, while Mach3 is a softwarecontroller that sends the movement data/signals to the drivers directly via serial or other interface.


I think what I am after is one of these "breakout boards".
This one (which comes with a lot of the stepper kits) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262849334835
http://g03.a.alicdn.com/kf/UT88VGFXetdXXagOFbX5/118948726/UT88VGFXetdXXagOFbX5.jpg
Looks to be what I am after.
4 Axis (only need 3) stepper control, spindle PWM, 3 relays for pump, air etc, home/limit switches and a couple IO ports.

Still China made but it comes with the motor kit so it should work fine with that setup.


It all comes down to how much volume you are expecting.

That is the thing. I am not expecting more than 100. Probably not even 50. But at least 25 to make it worth doing the production run.

I have always wanted a CNC table/mill. I want to do a few personal wood projects and some 5-10mm aluminium plate and I think now is a good time to get one.


That rail is a concern. There have been a few videos demonstration this but for what I am doing I don't think it will be that bad?
Most said it was okay though larger jobs it started to cause problems.






I really do like the idea of putting a kit together rather than buying a premade one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Stock-4-Axis-1500W-6040-CNC-Router-Engraver-Engraving-Milling-Machine-220V-/252773463708?hash=item3ada78f69c:g:UXQAAOSwDFNWFJQ E
This one looks the the standard 6040 and is around ~1,500

But I could put together this kit together for around 1,200. But I get the upgraded 2.2kW spindle, controller and beefer steppers.
Base - 650 - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040-CNC-router-milling-machine-mechanical-kit-ball-screw-Aluminum-clamp-can-interchangeable-65mm-or-80mm/2050992624.html?spm=2114.13010308.0.0.4cDNN7
2.2kW spindle/driver - 200 - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252593036650
Steppers - ~230 - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-products-3-axis-CNC-kit-Nema-23-Stepper-Motor-Dual-Shaft-425oz-in-112mm-3A/907217_1139071798.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.NtqLm 6
Stepper mounts - ~15 - Trying to find some EU stock. Only China atm :/ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3Pcs-Nema23-Motor-mounts-bracket-57-stepper-motor-bracket/32308917365.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.268.f7 AXAm
Cables, Water pump, Tube, cable bendy thing etc - ~75-100

Sounds like a better deal to me...

njhussey
16-02-2017, 10:17 PM
The problem with "kits" of parts, especially electronics is that they are not well matched. The stepper motors will probably be high inductance ones, the switch mode PSU will be underated and so it wont run as well as it should. You'd be far better off getting your motors from Zapp or somewhere like that where they'll be good ones.

As. You're electrically minded building a custom P S U should be a breeze...

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JOGARA
16-02-2017, 10:26 PM
The problem with "kits" of parts, especially electronics is that they are not well matched. The stepper motors will probably be high inductance ones, the switch mode PSU will be underated and so it wont run as well as it should. You'd be far better off getting your motors from Zapp or somewhere like that where they'll be good ones.

As. You're electrically minded building a custom P S U should be a breeze...

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Ill take a look at the Zapp stuff, thanks.

As for the power supply, if I get my motors from Zapp I can get an OP supply.
Those Chinese switch modes are pretty good though. I have a 12v one powering a lot of stuff in my workshop 24/7 as well as my 3D printer and CCTV system.

njhussey
16-02-2017, 10:38 PM
The switch mode ones don't take back EMF from the drivers when the machine is decelerating. If you make a linear PSU with some nice big caps then this is best, and you can make it to the ideal voltage. You really want some nice 80V drivers and a 72V PSU...then it'll fly which is what you need to cut plastic. I cut UHMWPE at 8000mm/min, your matched set wont get near that.

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JOGARA
16-02-2017, 10:43 PM
The switch mode ones don't take back EMF from the drivers when the machine is decelerating. If you make a linear PSU with some nice big caps then this is best, and you can make it to the ideal voltage. You really want some nice 80V drivers and a 72V PSU...then it'll fly which is what you need to cut plastic. I cut UHMWPE at 8000mm/min, your matched set wont get near that.

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Hmm good point.
I am not too good with power supplies. As in making them. I typically just get off the shelf.

Have you made your own?

njhussey
16-02-2017, 10:55 PM
Yes, have a read through the build logs...plenty have done them.

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Clive S
16-02-2017, 11:10 PM
Hmm good point.
I am not too good with power supplies. As in making them. I typically just get off the shelf.

Have you made your own?There are only 3 main components (toroidal transformer, rectifier & a couple of caps) or you could buy one from Zapp

JOGARA
16-02-2017, 11:26 PM
Isn't there a way to dump excess power coming back from steppers?

Like resistors or something.

Neale
16-02-2017, 11:40 PM
Isn't there a way to dump excess power coming back from steppers?

Like resistors or something.

Unfortunately not. There are two main problems with the switch-mode PSUs in this application, although they are great and very cost-effective elsewhere. One is the back emf issue as mentioned, while linear power supplies dump excess power into the smoothing caps (one way to look at it, anyway). The other is that linear supplies are much more tolerant of peak overload. A switch-mode supply tends to hard-limit, maybe even shut down temporarily, if you try to draw more than rated current where a linear supply output will tend to just sag a bit which is not usually a problem. If you are now looking at Mach3, you might also consider something like a UC100 or UC300 with UCCNC which is looking like an attractive option these days. Still need a break-out board but it's a better option than using Mach3 and parallel port.

JOGARA
17-02-2017, 07:16 PM
Okay, so I looked into toroidal based supplies and they are easy to make. So should be no time to spin a board for one of those.
Do cost a bit to get them off the self, though I know of a place that do them for like 50 euros each at any spec you want.
So might be able to get a decent high amp one for not that much more.


The problem is, the high voltage stepper controllers are not Chinese cheap :p
Looking at 110 per axis :/

I have only looked on Zapp though so far.

Steppers themselves are around 30 each. Makes it around double the cost.
But I guess it is worth it because of needing that extra speed and power?



Regarding the steppers, they state a "Rated Voltage" of around 2-4v.
Do the drivers lower to voltage or because they pulse the stepper they are able to use upwards of 80v?

Neale
17-02-2017, 07:32 PM
Ignore stepper voltage ratings. As you say, the stepper driver effectively pulses the drive voltage; the driver manages the current rather than voltage but the higher voltage allows higher current pulses which helps develop torque. Confused me at first but the stepper driver will have an adjustable current setting which is more useful. That's also why you use a linear power supply - better current pulse capability.

JOGARA
17-02-2017, 07:58 PM
Ignore stepper voltage ratings. As you say, the stepper driver effectively pulses the drive voltage; the driver manages the current rather than voltage but the higher voltage allows higher current pulses which helps develop torque. Confused me at first but the stepper driver will have an adjustable current setting which is more useful. That's also why you use a linear power supply - better current pulse capability.

Thought it was along that line.


As for picking what steppers to get.
Higher amp rating, higher holding torque are what to look out for?
Looking at Zapp, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-motors/nema-23-stepper-motors/sy57sth76-4004a-nema-23-stepper-motor.html

The drivers; http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html
Looks to be the best at the 100-120 option.
80V and 8.2A.



Wondering what controller to get too..

Clive S
17-02-2017, 08:39 PM
Or if you don't mind China https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Leadshine-2-phase-High-precision-stepper-drive-AM882-fit-NEMA-23-34size-motor-work-36/202210_783794956.html

JOGARA
17-02-2017, 09:02 PM
Or if you don't mind China https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Leadshine-2-phase-High-precision-stepper-drive-AM882-fit-NEMA-23-34size-motor-work-36/202210_783794956.html
Didn't think to look elsewhere.
Thanks

Neale
17-02-2017, 10:10 PM
One important thing to look for (and the cheaper stepper motors available online often fail this criterion) is inductance. High inductance may give high torque, but it slows the rate of rise of current through the motor coils which means that the rate of torque increase is also slower. That means that they are OK at slower speeds but with higher speeds/faster pulse rates, the torque drops off. The motors I'm using are 8-wire so that the coils can be wired in series or parallel. Series means lower current but poorer high-speed performance; parallel means higher current draw but better high-speed performance. This is all a bit of a simplification but it's broadly true and why you don't want high-inductance motors if you want to run fast. Does mean bigger PSU and drivers to suit the higher current.

I'm using the Zapp 3Nm NEMA23 motors on a 1500x750 cutting area router. Fairly heavy gantry (maybe 75kg?) driven by two motors and 5mm pitch ballscrews. I'm limited to about 5000mm/min by whip in the ballscrews (I should have used 10mm pitch) but those motors seem to drive that load without problem. I'm also using EM806 drives (from Zapp). I wanted newer digital drives, even though I had some appropriate rating older analogue drives from the Mk1 router, because, apart from generally better performance, they have stall detection. With a dual-motor master/slave axis drive on X, you really, really, don't want one motor to stall while the other keeps running. That could get very messy. I have wired the fault detect signal from the drives back to my motion controller so that if one drive trips, the machine stops very quickly. While setting up and tuning, this happened a couple of times which gives me some reassurance that the system works. I run on about 68V and have wound the motor max current setting to a point that it seems to run reliably on load without overheating the motors. The EM806s are well within their ratings although I have a couple of fans blowing a gentle draught across them.

For motion control, I went for Mach3 and a CSMIO IP/M ethernet controller. It's probably about the best controller around (based on general feedback and reputation) unless you go for its big brother the IP/S which costs about twice as much. The IP/M is not the cheapest option, although once you add in the fact that with "lesser" motion controllers you also need a breakout board, and a decent one that includes spindle speed control is not cheap, it's not that bad. It also uses 24V for signalling which gives better noise and interference rejection compared with 5V systems, and has differential outputs to drive the stepper drivers - again, this is an unusual feature but gives better interference rejection. I fitted mine, wired it all up, and it just worked first time, no messing about. The down side is that the IP/M can drive a master-and-slave axis machine like mine, but it cannot properly home the two axes. In practice, I am finding that this is not a problem and I have a simple manual workaround for this. If I were starting again today (I bought the electronics a couple of years ago), I might consider the UCCNC UC300ETH instead which is a cheaper option and getting a fairly good write-up in forums like this one. Haven't played with one myself though. You can save money by not needing Mach3 and using the UCCNC software which is also getting good feedback. All the same, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

But there are as many opinions in this area as there are CNC builders, so take all my comments as one man's view!

Clive S
17-02-2017, 10:36 PM
Didn't think to look elsewhere.
Thanks

As Neale has pointed out he is using the EM806. Both the AM882 and EM806 have stall detection which is a must when using two motors on one axis. I use the AM882 on my router and not had any trouble with them.

JOGARA
18-02-2017, 12:23 PM
One important thing to look for (and the cheaper stepper motors available online often fail this criterion) is inductance. High inductance may give high torque, but it slows the rate of rise of current through the motor coils which means that the rate of torque increase is also slower. That means that they are OK at slower speeds but with higher speeds/faster pulse rates, the torque drops off. The motors I'm using are 8-wire so that the coils can be wired in series or parallel. Series means lower current but poorer high-speed performance; parallel means higher current draw but better high-speed performance. This is all a bit of a simplification but it's broadly true and why you don't want high-inductance motors if you want to run fast. Does mean bigger PSU and drivers to suit the higher current.

I'm using the Zapp 3Nm NEMA23 motors on a 1500x750 cutting area router. Fairly heavy gantry (maybe 75kg?) driven by two motors and 5mm pitch ballscrews. I'm limited to about 5000mm/min by whip in the ballscrews (I should have used 10mm pitch) but those motors seem to drive that load without problem. I'm also using EM806 drives (from Zapp). I wanted newer digital drives, even though I had some appropriate rating older analogue drives from the Mk1 router, because, apart from generally better performance, they have stall detection. With a dual-motor master/slave axis drive on X, you really, really, don't want one motor to stall while the other keeps running. That could get very messy. I have wired the fault detect signal from the drives back to my motion controller so that if one drive trips, the machine stops very quickly. While setting up and tuning, this happened a couple of times which gives me some reassurance that the system works. I run on about 68V and have wound the motor max current setting to a point that it seems to run reliably on load without overheating the motors. The EM806s are well within their ratings although I have a couple of fans blowing a gentle draught across them.

For motion control, I went for Mach3 and a CSMIO IP/M ethernet controller. It's probably about the best controller around (based on general feedback and reputation) unless you go for its big brother the IP/S which costs about twice as much. The IP/M is not the cheapest option, although once you add in the fact that with "lesser" motion controllers you also need a breakout board, and a decent one that includes spindle speed control is not cheap, it's not that bad. It also uses 24V for signalling which gives better noise and interference rejection compared with 5V systems, and has differential outputs to drive the stepper drivers - again, this is an unusual feature but gives better interference rejection. I fitted mine, wired it all up, and it just worked first time, no messing about. The down side is that the IP/M can drive a master-and-slave axis machine like mine, but it cannot properly home the two axes. In practice, I am finding that this is not a problem and I have a simple manual workaround for this. If I were starting again today (I bought the electronics a couple of years ago), I might consider the UCCNC UC300ETH instead which is a cheaper option and getting a fairly good write-up in forums like this one. Haven't played with one myself though. You can save money by not needing Mach3 and using the UCCNC software which is also getting good feedback. All the same, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

But there are as many opinions in this area as there are CNC builders, so take all my comments as one man's view!

Thanks for all the info.

Looking at the steppers on Zapp, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-motors/nema-23-stepper-motors/sy60sth86-3008bf-nema-23-stepper-motor.html#product_tabs_description_tabbed
These ones are (what I believe) you are talking about?
Parallel with 3.2 inductance and 3Nm holding torque at 4.2A.


Can I ask what power solution you are using to get 68v?


I took a look at those controllers but they are way out of my price range.
Currently the steppers and drivers are costing me 300.
With the added power draw this is another big wedge and means ill have to forfeit the controller with the 30 one off eBay.

I get that it is better to spend more on a CNC router but at a point it starts to run over budget :p

Zeeflyboy
18-02-2017, 12:29 PM
I'm guessing something like this http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/linear-power-supplies/ps806-12-linear-power-supply.html


Yeah these things can snowball, one more expensive item leads to another and so on... reality is most of us are working to a budget so you need to figure out what you are willing to spend and what will be sufficient for your needs.

If budget is starting to pinch, I would also take a look at what areas it's best to put your money into initially. Might be an idea to go for the better controller (e.g. the CSMIO IP/M mentioned above) and just make do with the cheaper steppers until you feel the need to upgrade.

Ultimately of course you end up spending more by buying cheap then replacing, but reality is it gets you up and running in the mean time.

Zeeflyboy
18-02-2017, 12:39 PM
That is the thing. I am not expecting more than 100. Probably not even 50. But at least 25 to make it worth doing the production run.

I have always wanted a CNC table/mill. I want to do a few personal wood projects and some 5-10mm aluminium plate and I think now is a good time to get one.


That rail is a concern. There have been a few videos demonstration this but for what I am doing I don't think it will be that bad?
Most said it was okay though larger jobs it started to cause problems.






I really do like the idea of putting a kit together rather than buying a premade one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Stock-4-Axis-1500W-6040-CNC-Router-Engraver-Engraving-Milling-Machine-220V-/252773463708?hash=item3ada78f69c:g:UXQAAOSwDFNWFJQ E
This one looks the the standard 6040 and is around ~1,500

But I could put together this kit together for around 1,200. But I get the upgraded 2.2kW spindle, controller and beefer steppers.
Base - 650 - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040-CNC-router-milling-machine-mechanical-kit-ball-screw-Aluminum-clamp-can-interchangeable-65mm-or-80mm/2050992624.html?spm=2114.13010308.0.0.4cDNN7
2.2kW spindle/driver - 200 - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252593036650
Steppers - ~230 - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-products-3-axis-CNC-kit-Nema-23-Stepper-Motor-Dual-Shaft-425oz-in-112mm-3A/907217_1139071798.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.NtqLm 6
Stepper mounts - ~15 - Trying to find some EU stock. Only China atm :/ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3Pcs-Nema23-Motor-mounts-bracket-57-stepper-motor-bracket/32308917365.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.268.f7 AXAm
Cables, Water pump, Tube, cable bendy thing etc - ~75-100

Sounds like a better deal to me...


I would really just avoid those unsupported gantries like the plague... yes they may be ok with plastics and wood but they still limit how fast you can push it and will limit you in the future as well if you look to do some harder materials. It is not an area to cut costs imo as it's extremely difficult to upgrade or improve it later without just buying a new machine (which is what I ended up doing).

What is your time scale? I'm probably building myself a new bigger CNC over the next couple of months and the barebones X6-2200L mechanics would be up for grabs once I've done the machining I need to do for you to go to town on with your own electronics. That's like your generic 6040 but with proper profile HG20 type linear rails.

JOGARA
18-02-2017, 12:42 PM
I'm guessing something like this http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/linear-power-supplies/ps806-12-linear-power-supply.html


Yeah these things can snowball, one more expensive item leads to another and so on... reality is most of us are working to a budget so you need to figure out what you are willing to spend and what will be sufficient for your needs.

If budget is starting to pinch, I would also take a look at what areas it's best to put your money into initially. Might be an idea to go for the better controller (e.g. the CSMIO IP/M mentioned above) and just make do with the cheaper steppers until you feel the need to upgrade.

Ultimately of course you end up spending more by buying cheap then replacing, but reality is it gets you up and running in the mean time.

Yea, I am thinking around 1,500 max.

Probably will go for these switching power supplies at first and upgrade later to the better power.
Would allow me to then have the nice steppers and drivers.
But I would also be using the cheap Chinese controller.

That will probably get me started for now. If I then need to upgrade in a few months at least I have done this project and hopefully have another one where I can spend a few more quid on nicer things if they are needed.



I would really just avoid those unsupported gantries like the plague... yes they may be ok with plastics and wood but they still limit how fast you can push it and will limit you in the future as well if you look to do some harder materials. It is not an area to cut costs imo as it's extremely difficult to upgrade or improve it later without just buying a new machine (which is what I ended up doing).

What is your time scale? I'm probably building myself a new bigger CNC over the next couple of months and the barebones X6-2200L mechanics would be up for grabs once I've done the machining I need to do for you to go to town on with your own electronics. That's like your generic 6040 but with proper profile HG20 type linear rails.

Looking at the parts on the one I listed; https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040-CNC-router-milling-machine-mechanical-kit-ball-screw-Aluminum-clamp-can-interchangeable-65mm-or-80mm/2050992624.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.277.umj tYe
Isn't the Y rail supported underneath?
I know it is not linear rails but should be better than the rods just floating?

The X axis ones are floating by the looks of it.

Clive S
18-02-2017, 01:16 PM
Can I ask what power solution you are using to get 68v?

A toroidal transformer 24-0-24v in series with one rectifier and two caps

Neale
18-02-2017, 02:09 PM
A toroidal transformer 24-0-24v in series with one rectifier and two caps

Actually, I'm using a 2x45V toroidal with both windings strapped in parallel to give a single 650W supply. Same thing, really!

My first router used LinuxCNC (cheap - nothing cheaper, in fact) and a parallel port to a cheap breakout board. No spindle (speed or start/stop) control. Old analogue drivers. It worked. Not ideal in many ways, but you don't always need "the best". But you do need something that works for you, and it does need to be reasonably reliable. Best thing, I guess, is to try to understand what compromises you are making by going cheaper and deciding if you can accept that for the time being. The other thing to keep in mind is, "Can I easily upgrade it later?" For example, changing a motion controller or stepper drivers is not too invasive. But changing ballscrews for leadscrews, or supported rails for profile rails, might be more difficult later.

I have probable spent around 2500 on my steel-framed, ballscrewed, profile railed, motion-controlled, 1500x750 router. That's probably typical.

JOGARA
25-02-2017, 07:06 PM
Would something like one of this work?
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=70%2B70&filter_va=&submit=Filter+Results

They have 70+70V so would mean 2 sets of 70V?
From what I know, you can connect these in parallel though you have to be careful to get the phases the correct way round?

As for the rating, thinking 2000VA?

As for caps, 110v and as big as i'd like?

Clive S
25-02-2017, 07:16 PM
Would something like one of this work?
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=70%2B70&filter_va=&submit=Filter+Results

They have 70+70V so would mean 2 sets of 70V?
From what I know, you can connect these in parallel though you have to be careful to get the phases the correct way round?

As for the rating, thinking 2000VA?

As for caps, 110v and as big as i'd like?

Ok what DC voltage to you want to end up with. What steppers are you using and how many.

Read #31 again 650VA should be more than enough try and get caps that are 100V

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=24%2B24&filter_va=625&submit=Filter+Results

JOGARA
25-02-2017, 07:41 PM
Ok what DC voltage to you want to end up with. What steppers are you using and how many.

Read #31 again 650VA should be more than enough try and get caps that are 100V

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=24%2B24&filter_va=625&submit=Filter+Results

Going off what people said, higher voltage the better? So close to the max of the drivers.

As for the drivers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html (buying direct from manufacturer in China)
Steppers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html

Neale
25-02-2017, 07:50 PM
Going off what people said, higher voltage the better? So close to the max of the drivers.


...which is what you will get if you use a lower voltage transformer. Yes, I know it doesn't sound right, but in practice a 45V or so transformer will end up giving you around 68V DC across the smoothing capacitor(s). This also gives a bit of allowance for the fact that the mains input voltage will vary, and the transformer will probably give you about 5% over the rated voltage under light load to allow for a drop when on full load.

EM806 are good drivers.

Clive S
25-02-2017, 07:53 PM
Going off what people said, higher voltage the better? So close to the max of the drivers.

As for the drivers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html (buying direct from manufacturer in China)
Steppers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html

Those are 80V drives so run them at about 68V to allow for the back emf. 24-24 v in series = 48 = about 68V dc when rectified.

AM882 drives would be less dosh and just as good.

Clive S
25-02-2017, 07:54 PM
Snap :surprise:

JOGARA
25-02-2017, 08:00 PM
Those are 80V drives so run them at about 68V to allow for the back emf. 24-24 v in series = 48 = about 68V dc when rectified.

AM882 drives would be less dosh and just as good.


Ohhh
I thought it was 1:1 from transform through rectification.
That makes sense why so many are doing 24-24v.

These are the drivers I am getting https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Leadshine-2-phase-High-precision-stepper-drive-AM882-fit-NEMA-23-34size-motor-work-36/202210_783794956.html?spm=2114.12010615.0.0.9rnD8Q

Forgot I changed to them.


Am I right in saying that when the steppers start up or change direction, they require a lot of amps, but when they are going it is pretty low.
Which is why you are able to get away with lower wattage transformers?



Thanks

Clive S
25-02-2017, 09:11 PM
Am I right in saying that when the steppers start up or change direction, they require a lot of amps, but when they are going it is pretty low.
Which is why you are able to get away with lower wattage transformers?
A 625 va trans former will be fine good choice on the AM882

JOGARA
16-03-2017, 09:36 PM
Doing an order from TME already, saw they sold toroidals.
http://www.tme.eu/gb/details/tst600w_2x24v/toroidal-transformers/indel/tst600008/

Though it is 600VA not 650VA.
That extra few watts going to make much difference?

Clive S
16-03-2017, 09:45 PM
Doing an order from TME already, saw they did toroidals.
http://www.tme.eu/gb/details/tst600w_2x24v/toroidal-transformers/indel/tst600008/

Though it is 600VA not 650VA.
That extra few watts going to make much difference?

That will be fine

JOGARA
16-03-2017, 09:48 PM
That will be fine

Awesome! Thanks.

And my caps came yesterday.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-5PCS-Electrolytic-capacitor-10000UF100V-35-50-Electrolytic-capacitors/2030086709.html

Might as well shove all 5 on?

A_Camera
17-03-2017, 07:11 AM
My idea is to then use 15mm polypropylene sheet instead to get the same sort of light wight properties and strength (small sized case, about 100x45mm).

In my opinion Acetal (Delrin, POM) is the best material. It is not cheap, but it is stable, keeping it's form even in varying temperature and humidity, machinable and you can handle it as you would handle soft metal, yet it is very strong, you can tap it and use ordinary screws for metal. It is not melting easily and the chips produced are nice. I am using it and in my opinion it is the best for milled plastic cases, though it is not light.


Are these China CNC milling machines okay for this?
I have seen them eat 10mm aluminium so this should be fine right?

Can't speak about "China CNC milling machines" in general since I never had one (built and designed my own) but I am pretty sure they can handle Acetal, as well as aluminium, assuming you are using the right feed rate and spindle speed. My first spindle was a cheap 400W DC motor with the maximum RPM of 12000. I used that one for two years on PCB, acrylic and Acetal and is still working, though now replaced with a 1.5kW 24kRPM brushless 3 phase spindle which is of course better. Never the less, it shows that even cheap motors can be used, but you need to adjust the feed rate accordingly. Anyway, with the DC motor I never really dared to work on aluminium, the new one on the other had cuts aluminium just fine.


My understanding of milling plastic is speed and sharp tools to reduce heat and thus the plastic melting.
There is less horse power needed as it is more speed than anything, though I still want a powerful spindle for future proofing..



It doesn't matter which material you work on, speeds and good tools are always critical. Even aluminium melts if you are not doing it right or use bad tools. Anyway, how fast you have to spin the spindle depends on the type of tool and the material, as well as the feed rate. Use a feed rate calculator, practice and learn. Different plastics behave differently, there are even different material qualities, just like there are different grades of aluminium and other material.

I cut everything dry, not using mist and the only air which is blown around the cutter is the one which is sucked in by the dust shoe, so there is not much cooling. Melting is only an issue if you are using the wrong speeds and feeds, or cut too lightly and the chips are far too small. If you must shave material you must be more careful, it is better to produce chips than dust.

CrazeUK
17-03-2017, 10:20 AM
In my opinion Acetal (Delrin, POM) is the best material. It is not cheap, but it is stable, keeping it's form even in varying temperature and humidity, machinable and you can handle it as you would handle soft metal, yet it is very strong, you can tap it and use ordinary screws for metal. It is not melting easily and the chips produced are nice. I am using it and in my opinion it is the best for milled plastic cases, though it is not light.



Can't speak about "China CNC milling machines" in general since I never had one (built and designed my own) but I am pretty sure they can handle Acetal, as well as aluminium, assuming you are using the right feed rate and spindle speed. My first spindle was a cheap 400W DC motor with the maximum RPM of 12000. I used that one for two years on PCB, acrylic and Acetal and is still working, though now replaced with a 1.5kW 24kRPM brushless 3 phase spindle which is of course better. Never the less, it shows that even cheap motors can be used, but you need to adjust the feed rate accordingly. Anyway, with the DC motor I never really dared to work on aluminium, the new one on the other had cuts aluminium just fine.



It doesn't matter which material you work on, speeds and good tools are always critical. Even aluminium melts if you are not doing it right or use bad tools. Anyway, how fast you have to spin the spindle depends on the type of tool and the material, as well as the feed rate. Use a feed rate calculator, practice and learn. Different plastics behave differently, there are even different material qualities, just like there are different grades of aluminium and other material.

I cut everything dry, not using mist and the only air which is blown around the cutter is the one which is sucked in by the dust shoe, so there is not much cooling. Melting is only an issue if you are using the wrong speeds and feeds, or cut too lightly and the chips are far too small. If you must shave material you must be more careful, it is better to produce chips than dust.
Would that mean one should do fewer slower deeper passes, as opposed to faster more shallow passes?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

A_Camera
17-03-2017, 11:10 AM
Would that mean one should do fewer slower deeper passes, as opposed to faster more shallow passes?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I don't think there is a simple answer to that, since it depends on the material, but in general terms it is better if the material is not shaved or rubbed off because that generates too much heat and causes melting. So, some times increasing the depth may help, other times increasing the feed rate, or the spindle speed, and again, some times all three. I am not afraid of doing shallow cuts if needed, but in that case I do it with very high feed rate and the spindle speed, feed rate and the quality of the cutter is more critical there.

When I notice melting (mostly when different acrylic qualities are used) then I try to guess if the feed rate is too slow or if spindle speed increase can be a solution, or if deeper plunge would help. I am by far an expert but normally I can guess pretty well based on my experience, adjust and do it right next time. In my experience it is not always working to have pre-calculated parameters, and one which works this time may not work next time if the material is not exactly the same batch. Never the less, when starting with new material or cutter which I don't have experience with, using a feed rate calculator is a good idea because it gives me a good reference to start from. If the calculated values work then I use it or play with different values in the calculator if I intend to change something, for example if I want to increase feed rate to finish a job faster.

njhussey
17-03-2017, 01:33 PM
Would that mean one should do fewer slower deeper passes, as opposed to faster more shallow passes?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

It also depends on your machine, in fact it's mostly about your machine and how stiff it is and what type of cut you're doing. If you're slotting then you have to go slower or shallower than if you're doing a 60% width stepover pocketing pass.

I'm about to cut some more samples (see photos below) at work in Acetal and I'll be doing 20mm deep cuts with a 6mm 2 flute uncoated carbide mill, I'm using Trochoidal milling mind so don't try to take that deep a cut normally!!

211392113821140

JOGARA
18-03-2017, 08:47 PM
Getting close to the point where I want to buy.

Am I better off just trying to buy a VMC like a Tormach 1100?
I have been looking around for one for a few weeks but they are a bit rare over here.

Also trying to find other options though they are at least 10,000 :/


Might it be worth spending a bit more trying to get a decent 6040 like frame rather than messing with a China frame?
The thing is the part I want to make is not that tricky I don't think. Looks like we will be using 15mm thick aluminium.

Surface finish needs to be at a point where I can just sand it down to a fine grit for anodising.

Thoughts?

[edit]
Looking at some videos, it looks to do fine with pretty deep stuff...

https://youtu.be/KVmf_dac8gY

Zeeflyboy
21-03-2017, 10:10 AM
Again within reasonable bounds, the depth of the material really isn't hugely relevant to the machine's ability to cut it... as long as a tool in an appropriate diameter and length can be found then it really just becomes a question of number of passes.

That last piece must have taken ages to machine at that speed and depth, but as you can see most of these things will have a stab at alu.

If going the chinese router path, I do recommend you avoid any round or unsupported rails if alu is on your to-do list, having owned both I can say you will have much less frustration if you get one that at least has proper HG20 rails... take a look at omioCNC - they make some of the better chinese routers imo (I own an X6-2200L at the moment, building myself a new bigger badder one mostly for fun). If you wanted to go sans-electronics they would probably sell a bare frame if asked.

This is an example of a 20mm plate cut on my X6-2200L:


http://i.imgur.com/y6jXlPu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XAAhxhX.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUc4bTgPjoI

JOGARA
21-03-2017, 08:50 PM
Ill check them out. I get what you are saying and from the looks of the video it is totally worth it.

Where do you get your cutting bits?
Not really looked into that yet.

Zeeflyboy
24-03-2017, 08:46 PM
depends, I use a few places.

Shop-apt are quick and good quality, but I generally use aliexpress a lot these days... there's some really high quality stuff on there at decent enough prices, you just have to wait a bit longer to get them. I've also ordered stuff from BZT in the past for some specific bits I wanted (diamond coated ones for CF), shipping was ridiculous though...

JOGARA
27-03-2017, 12:39 AM
Okay so you pretty much sold me the omioCNC...
Few other threads on it show that it is pretty good.

Question is, do you still use the stock components like the controller, steppers, drivers etc?

And what accessories to get?

Ta

Boyan Silyavski
27-03-2017, 01:15 AM
Why dont you add to your mental map a what a good DIY cnc can do.

6mm depth of cut aluminum, perfect finish. Not 0.6mm, :smiley_simmons: like on video you were watching but real 6mm at around 2000 mm/min , and slot cutting, mind that.


https://goo.gl/photos/f69ooiHd6JN8Q5Ur5

Zeeflyboy
27-03-2017, 08:51 AM
Okay so you pretty much sold me the omioCNC...
Few other threads on it show that it is pretty good.

Question is, do you still use the stock components like the controller, steppers, drivers etc?

And what accessories to get?

Ta

Hah I'm not trying to sell you on it - just that if you are going the Chinese router direction, that is one of the better ones. It still has it's issues but you pay your money and you take your choices...

I am not using many of the stock components anymore, although there was nothing wrong with them. I changed the motion card mostly because I wanted to try out mach4 and also because I prefer Ethernet to USB... the stock card worked fine with Mach3 though and I didn't run into any obvious interference issues. I also changed the motors over to leadshine closed loop easyservos, the rest of the electronics I kept (PSU, VFD, Spindle) although I'd like to change to a toroidal at some point.

The biggest issue for me is that they (like seemingly all Chinese routers) don't ground the spindle. When I mentioned it they said grounding the spindle can cause interference issues with the USB card, but it's a point of safety so to my mind it needed to be done.

I changed to a 4 core shielded cable for the spindle, and re-wired the box into a star point earth... doing it that way I never had interference issues.

Accessories wise you just need to figure out what you need or want for work holding (vise, clamps, spoil board, vacuum board etc), and a good set of high precision ER collets in the sizes you want is a sound investment. Beyond that just a few cheap cutters to get started with as you will probably break some while getting to grips with it.

JOGARA
28-03-2017, 01:56 PM
Just one more question for everyone. I need to basically set up multiple stations on the CNC to do different operations.

What is the best way to get positional accuracy with the drill bit and workpiece?

I have seen John over at NYCCNC on his Tormach and HASS use a device that sits inside the collect to get XYZ positions as well as a little cube that gets the drill bit position.
Is that an option with Mach3 and this sort of CNC?

Was going to mill a 10mm plate to put vices on that can then be squared and made repeatable. But it is that first setup each time I want to make sure I am a 0.01mm accurate.

Thanks
Jack,

Zeeflyboy
28-03-2017, 02:01 PM
I just recently got one of these... I think it's pretty good for the money and certainly the only one I'm aware of in this sort of price range that uses contacts submerged in di-electric oil to avoid the oxidation problem.

http://www.kurokesu.com/shop/TPA2

A_Camera
28-03-2017, 03:17 PM
Just one more question for everyone. I need to basically set up multiple stations on the CNC to do different operations.

What is the best way to get positional accuracy with the drill bit and workpiece?

I have seen John over at NYCCNC on his Tormach and HASS use a device that sits inside the collect to get XYZ positions as well as a little cube that gets the drill bit position.
Is that an option with Mach3 and this sort of CNC?

Was going to mill a 10mm plate to put vices on that can then be squared and made repeatable. But it is that first setup each time I want to make sure I am a 0.01mm accurate.

Thanks
Jack,

I just googled "touch probe mach3" and I get 83,400 hits... :)

...along with pictures, and build instructions of everything, from simple touch plate to complex 3-D probes.

A simple conductive material works fine and will give you the accuracy, but remember that your accuracy depends on what you calibrating with as well. A touch probe is connected to one of the free inputs and you configure that input in Mach3 as "Probe". The thing is that you need a macro to get it working as well, but there are plenty of those available freely if you don't want to write one. Once you have the macro you have to attach that to a button and call it every time you intend to use it. It is pretty simple but maybe you need to spend some more time if you have never done it before.

I am using a simple PCB piece most of the time, it works just fine, but have plans on making something more advanced, but it isn't highest on my priority list.

Neale
28-03-2017, 05:52 PM
Repeatable accuracy to 0.01 mm is pretty demanding. I know that on my own machine I can get repeatability to +-0.003mm - one microstep, in other words. However, accuracy is another thing, and apart from anything else you are going to need a decent set of collets. As already said, you can do this kind of probing with a simple accurate block plus a straight plain shank in a collet, or spend hundreds or more. For ease of use, you might also want to look at an upgraded Mach3 screenset. Gerry"s 2010 screen set is widely recommended and includes probing functions - a Google search will find it.

JOGARA
30-03-2017, 10:09 PM
Is it worth paying 735 more for the X8?

X6
(X)355(Y)510(Z)85mm
57BYGH76-3A steppers


X8
(X)565(Y)770(Z)85mm
60BYGH86-4.2A steppers

Controller wise, the X6 uses Mach3. The X8 has an embedded system.
Does it still have usb input for Mach3?

The nearly double workspace is tempting...
Just don't fancy only using their hardware controller.

Thinking about it, 735 is a lot... Never mind

Zeeflyboy
31-03-2017, 11:07 AM
Bigger is good, if you need the space...

Bigger also however means less rigid for the same given design (as is the case here), so if that space isn't going to be used then it does have a negative aspect to consider.

I'm sure they could supply the X8 with the black control box if requested.

JOGARA
31-03-2017, 08:07 PM
Bigger is good, if you need the space...

Bigger also however means less rigid for the same given design (as is the case here), so if that space isn't going to be used then it does have a negative aspect to consider.

I'm sure they could supply the X8 with the black control box if requested.

Went with the X6.
Don't really need the size of the X8, yet :p

Ordered a full set of collects and some 1mm and 3mm bits.

Looking at vices, got 2 cheapo ones from Ali, they look okay but not proper strong.
Will see if they work okay or not. If not, can use them for lighter material at least.

JOGARA
11-04-2017, 11:43 PM
https://s22.postimg.org/4w9bjlt8h/IMG_20170411_163432475_HDR.jpg

Not fully set up yet. Wish the cables were longer so I could have the controller elsewhere.
Done some tests and it looks to work well.

Just got to get some distilled water and some bits for my air compressor and we should be good to go!


The whole rig feels super strong. Not like steel strong but nothing moves if you push against any faces.


The only thing that came broke was the infamous pump...
https://s22.postimg.org/x1w40cnq9/IMG_20170411_153302318.jpg

Zeeflyboy
12-04-2017, 06:09 PM
interesting, few design tweaks from mine - they are using a different kind of alu for the side arms (mine doesn't have that channel in the front edge) and looks to be using HIWIN, or HIWIN copy I suppose, carriages where mine was using something else.

Glad it all arrived safely, have fun!

Monster thread on CNCzone about that machine, has some good info in it.

JOGARA
12-04-2017, 06:49 PM
interesting, few design tweaks from mine - they are using a different kind of alu for the side arms (mine doesn't have that channel in the front edge) and looks to be using HIWIN, or HIWIN copy I suppose, carriages where mine was using something else.

Glad it all arrived safely, have fun!

Monster thread on CNCzone about that machine, has some good info in it.

Not read threw that thread yet. On my todo list :p



Cut some wood this evening to test it all out.
https://s27.postimg.org/anugwvtr7/IMG_20170412_172726776_HDR.jpg
(Obviously not cleaned it up or used a 2nd op to chamfer it. "Dog Shed" is what we call my workshop fyi, because the dogs live in it)

Worked really well. Went from Fusion 360 to this in no time.

Water got a bit warm. Using 15L of Halfords de-ionised battery topup water.
What temp should I be concerned at? A few places are saying 30-35C max. I have another 15L worth but I need some for my laser (obviously can go get more).

Thinking I might make a single 60L system with 2 pumps (one for each tool) and also a radiator with fans on to circulate the 60L tank with air cooled water.
Wont really be using both at the same time, but rather have one large tank of water than the two if it is okay to do so.


My Ecocast from Aliwarehouse also arrived. Had some concern about these guys from reading a few threads on here but this lot came in 2 days without a blemish on them.
https://s29.postimg.org/t3b9jj113/IMG_20170412_151628325_HDR.jpg

Zeeflyboy
12-04-2017, 11:07 PM
Downcut bits will avoid that rough edge that you can get on wood like that, might be worth picking some up. Work well on plastics too for the same reason.

I've always found aluminiumwarehouse ok.

I wouldn't over-think the cooling... there isn't that much heat to dissipate. Mine works fine with a small closed loop system (basically a single PC water cooling radiator and pump). Certainly no need to have a 60L system AND a radiator.

If you want to have a big combined cooling system for both your laser and your CNC then sure, why not. Seems to be over-complicating things though.

Boyan Silyavski
13-04-2017, 11:22 AM
Cheers on the machine!. Sth is not right with that wood cut. Try 16000- 17000rpm, bit diamenter depth of cut and 60IPM / 1500mm/min. That generally will work on any machine, even a flimsy one. 16000-17000 on soft wood, 17000-18000 on hard wood. Mdf and similar.

JOGARA
13-04-2017, 12:09 PM
Just got my new vice. Decided against the 2 cheap ones from China that cost 100. Went with a single one for 80 that is built for "light milling". Feels solid enough for what I need.

Holds my 150x100 aluminium perfectly and there is room to put bigger bits in there.
Will work on the mounting of it to the base though.

https://s13.postimg.org/azsa7h3jb/IMG_20170413_115926548.jpg

Only getting 1-2 hours a night to play with it all atm.
Got to finish a load of uni work :/

Also need to work on my speeds and feeds...

Zeeflyboy
13-04-2017, 12:11 PM
looks like it should be fine.

Just beware that your bed won't be level, so bolting the clamp directly to the bed won't give you a level surface either.

Ideally you need to bolt on a spoil board of some description and use the machine to skim it down. That will give you a flat surface to screw the clamp down into.

JOGARA
13-04-2017, 12:13 PM
looks like it should be fine.

Just beware that your bed won't be level, so bolting the clamp directly to the bed won't give you a level surface either.

Ideally you need to bolt on a spoil board of some description and use the machine to skim it down. That will give you a flat surface to screw the clamp down into.

Yea I heard about that being a problem and looks like it is a bit off.
Wood enough for a spoil board when working with aluminium?

Zeeflyboy
13-04-2017, 12:16 PM
MDF or similar would be ok as long as you aren't using much coolant. If you have any moisture resistant lying around that is a bit more stable in terms of dimensions and changes in humidity etc but far from essential.

You could also just bolt down a small piece where you intend to put your vice, rather than the whole bed. You would just have to re-skim it if you remove it but that's not a big deal for a small piece like that.

JOGARA
13-04-2017, 12:18 PM
MDF or similar would be ok as long as you aren't using much coolant. If you have any moisture resistant lying around that is a bit more stable in terms of dimensions and changes in humidity etc but far from essential.

You could also just bolt down a small piece where you intend to put your vice, rather than the whole bed. You would just have to re-skim it if you remove it but that's not a big deal for a small piece like that.

That's a good idea. I was planning on keeping the vice at the far left side and leaving the rest available to other projects that I need to do.

JOGARA
14-04-2017, 07:24 PM
So this is the case that I am milling out of EcoCast.

https://s29.postimg.org/eh3smgtjr/Capture.jpg

These are the end mills I have so far.
3.175mm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182410682575?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
2mm https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-3-175x2x15mm-Carbide-Single-Flute-Spiral-Bit-Sharp-Edge-High-Durability/1958278417.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.EJZ3Jx
1mm https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-3-175-1-0-6MM-Two-Flutes-Tungsten-End-Mill-Bits-Advanced-Chipboard-Carbide-Millinging/32263951641.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.EJZ3Jx

The case is like 75x60mm so I don't want to carve that all out with a 3.175.

Was thinking of getting something along the lines of a 6mm end mill to do the main hogging out.

What is the max these spindles can take?
I have collets up to 12mm.


Also, where is the best place to learn speeds and feeds? I have been testing these 3mm on a bit of this EcoCast and broke 2 end mills within minutes.
One I accidentally knocked into the work piece. The other because I did not know how to correctly set up the Z in Fusion CAM.

Clive S
14-04-2017, 08:01 PM
Have you thought about using foam etc. to practise on that way it will be more forgiving when you dive into it.

JOGARA
14-04-2017, 08:49 PM
Have you thought about using foam etc. to practise on that way it will be more forgiving when you dive into it.

No fun without danger of snapping a bit though :p

The wood carving was fine. Just need to learn about the speeds and feeds for when in Fusion.

Zeeflyboy
15-04-2017, 01:47 AM
6mm Single Flute is my general use bit when cutting Alu unless I need smaller for radius/slots etc. I have a 2 Flute 12mm I tend to use for hogging out plastics, that's the largest I have used so far, works great.

3 Flute roughing bits also pretty useful but I do find them a bit harder to get right without coolant, easy to start welding chips if you're a bit off the sweet spot. Single Flute is much more forgiving in my experience and well suited to the high speed spindle.

G-wizard can be a good place to start for feeds/speeds. Think it has a 30 day free trial.

JOGARA
16-04-2017, 07:25 PM
The only place I found that does larger single flute end mills int he UK is this eBay seller, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-0mm-Solid-Carbide-End-Mill-Single-Flute-Polished-/162448427104?hash=item25d2ae4860:g:agYAAOSw5cNYTbt V
(looking at it, they are not from the UK, yet they put their location as UK...)
Know of any more?

Quite pricey though and around the same shipping time as e-EMS on Ali.

Tempted to buy a dozen or so bits from Ali and pay for the faster shipping.


[edit]
Can find a load of 2 flute on there. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-FLUTE-CARBIDE-END-MILL-3-4-5-6-7-8-10-12-16-MM-SLOT-DRILL-ENGINEERING-TOOLS-/142003412553?var=&hash=item2110101e49:m:m3z_GCSjZDARtSupNGbvLLw

Ordered a 4 flue 6mm and 3mm off Amazon to experiment and compare with.
Just want to see the difference.

Zeeflyboy
16-04-2017, 09:30 PM
I've used these guys before (UK based) for their Belin Single Flute Downcut bits... not the cheapest but good quality.

http://www.cncroutershop.com/uk_en/

They have a good selection of Single Flute upcut bits too, including their own brand.

Other than that I tend to use AliExpress, most stuff comes within a couple of weeks at most even slow boating. I've used these guys before and quality was great.

http://s.aliexpress.com/QRnaE3ia

Roughing bits might be worth looking at too:

http://s.aliexpress.com/j6vqyuAN

Zeeflyboy
16-04-2017, 09:34 PM
Oh and another thought - if you are just doing a small levelled area for the clamp to bolt into, consider using something that will be a bit more resilient than mdf like tufnol kite board or even a skimmed Alu plate. You could thread directly into either and it'll be more moisture resistant.

Also re fusion - set up cloud library and do your own tool library. Much quicker and easier than searching through their generic one and you won't have as many mishaps with wrong feeds/speeds.

JOGARA
16-04-2017, 09:51 PM
I've used these guys before (UK based) for their Belin Single Flute Downcut bits... not the cheapest but good quality.

http://www.cncroutershop.com/uk_en/

They have a good selection of Single Flute upcut bits too, including their own brand.

Other than that I tend to use AliExpress, most stuff comes within a couple of weeks at most even slow boating. I've used these guys before and quality was great.

http://s.aliexpress.com/QRnaE3ia

Roughing bits might be worth looking at too:

http://s.aliexpress.com/j6vqyuAN


Oh and another thought - if you are just doing a small levelled area for the clamp to bolt into, consider using something that will be a bit more resilient than mdf like tufnol kite board or even a skimmed Alu plate. You could thread directly into either and it'll be more moisture resistant.

Also re fusion - set up cloud library and do your own tool library. Much quicker and easier than searching through their generic one and you won't have as many mishaps with wrong feeds/speeds.


I was just editing my thread with my findings on Ali as you replied. :p

These are the ones that I have spotted on Ali. The second store being about twice the price of the first store.
Saite_Cutter Store
3.175mm http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-single-Blade-Aluminium-cutting-single-flute-CNC-router-bits-3-175mm-1-8-CEL-17mm/32444972729.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.262.oh Qh0J
5mm http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-3pcs-lot-New-5mm-HQ-Carbide-CNC-Router-Bits-Single-Flute-Aluminum-Cutting-Tools/32796748540.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.268.oh Qh0J
6.35mm http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-2pcs-lot-New-6-35mm-AAA-Carbide-CNC-Router-Bits-Single-Flute-Aluminum-Cutting/32800434589.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.265.oh Qh0J

Shanghai CNC HOME Ltd. Co.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Retail-6-22MM-Import-Single-Flute-Aluminum-Milling-Cutter-for-Metal-End-Millinging-Tools-Carbide-in/123417_32213100380.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.1GtQ BZ


Looks like the Shanghai CNC HOME is the one to go for then if you are suggesting it.
Happy to pay more for the bits if they are better obviously.

Those roughing bits look good too. Seen NYC CNC use them and they just rip through the material.


Was thinking of getting a sheet of Polypropylene for the spoil board as it is pretty strong?
Ideally i'd go Aluminium but I wont be ordering again for a few weeks to make it worth shipping the dam thing.


I have already started putting the tools I have so far in the library.
Did not bother with their stock items as I pretty much guessed that the eBay and Ali stuff would not be on there.

Also got a trail of the G-Wizard and making sure I have the correct feeds and speeds set up for those bits.


I have been reading up on the flutes being up or down.
Isn't the up flute better suited for chip evacuation?
Going to be mostly milling out 15mm deep stock so pulling up the chips rather than having them go down would be better over the down cut bits?

Its not like my vice can't handle it, that thing is a little beast.
(Obviously not as good as the ones you get on the industrial machines, but you know what I mean....)


Again thanks for the help.
Really do appreciate it.

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 07:49 AM
Price isn't necessarily an indication of better quality, if the reviews are decent and the parts look good then have a go - I just linked to the store that I have personally ordered from in the past.

For Alu, yes upcut is definitely what you want as chip evacuation is vital. Ideally one would also be using compressed air (with added bonus points for mist coolant) with a nozzle aimed to blast any chips out of the way.

I initially bought Downcut for some closed cell foam I was machining for custom cases/tool trays. They are mostly of use in softer materials where the top edge can be a bit rough with an upcut bit. Compressed air or a vac shoe can help with chip evacuation there.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 10:29 AM
I bought one of those cheap misters off eBay for like 7. Not installed it yet as I need to tap a hole for it.
Not looked into what coolant to get for it yet though.

I see what you mean about the down cut now. Like on that wood I tested on, would have been better having a down cut as it does not pull the fibres up.


https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/economy-3-flute-roughing-carbide-end-mills-for-aluminium/3-flute-carbide-roughing-end-mill-for-aluminium-6mm-diameter.html
Probably best bet in terms of roughing end mills to get delivered this week?

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 12:45 PM
Yeah exactly, gives a very sharp clean top edge on plastics like acetal etc too. Just something else to consider playing with :)

Shop apt are very good, I've used them plenty in the past.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 08:01 PM
Can't for the life of me work out what this is called.

Fusion wants to helical down all the way through this 15mm and then circle around.
https://s15.postimg.org/69lxy1wh7/Capture.jpg

Rather it go down 1-2mm to cut then step down.

If not, is this the correct way to do deep stuff?



Also, new bit arrived to day.
https://s30.postimg.org/d4n7fy7bl/IMG_20170417_201503867_HDR.jpg
Not bad? Ignore the stuff to the left of it :p

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 08:27 PM
Which bits are those?

Side finish is a bit poor, looks like a lot of chatter. Chips are also a bit small and fluffy suggesting too slow a feed rate. What bits and what feeds/speeds?

This is the sort of wall finish you should be able to get out of this machine with a bit of practise

http://i.imgur.com/XAAhxhX.jpg


You can set max depth under multiple passes in fusion, even on the adaptive stuff.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 08:37 PM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B018X9TDMK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Think your right about feed rate. Upped it to 0.01 per tooth.
Was on 0.004




You can set max depth under multiple passes in fusion, even on the adaptive stuff.

That's it. Found it now.


[edit]
Still got chatter.

[edit2]
Upped my feed rate in Mach3 to 200%. Improved a bit.
Here are the F&S that I am going to try now.
https://s2.postimg.org/9w70itue1/Capture.png
Previously it was 0.01 per tooth.

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 09:10 PM
that's quite long for a 1/8 bit... you'll need to be fairly gentle with DoC to avoid bending the tool. Insert the tool so that you have minimum necessary exposed shank to help minimise flex.

Then try something more like 18k rpm, feed down to 600ish and I wouldn't go much beyond 0.5-1mm DoC at first with a tool that long/thin. You could try a bit deeper with adaptive type strategies (although perhaps limit the step over it allows to reduce loading on the tool.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 09:12 PM
Let it rip at full speed.
https://s2.postimg.org/6qozkh0uh/IMG_20170417_210703110_HDR.jpg

Had it weld towards the end causing a few problems. Air pressure was low because it has gone 9PM.
Doesn't look like it stuck to the bit that much. I was able to pick it off with my nail.



Ill try it now at 0.5mm DoC at those rates.
Was at 1mm (went off the rule of it being half the width?).

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 09:15 PM
Looks a bit better, see my edit just above your last post for some further thoughts.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 09:33 PM
Saw it and will be testing it out tomorrow!


Also, just found a 2 flute 6mm...
Must have come with the machine xD

Might give that ago tomorrow too..


Mobile footage of the last cut.

https://youtu.be/P_gak9nr59A

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 09:35 PM
looks pretty good in the video

I found the cutters that came with the machine fairly crap btw

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 10:09 PM
looks pretty good in the video

I found the cutters that came with the machine fairly crap btw


Thus why I did not bother with them :p
Ordering a few off shop-apt tonight. Hopefully they will come Wednesday.
Will still try the 6mm they gave us. Worth it.

The only problem with the video was the cooling, which I expected because the compressor was low.

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 11:49 AM
This is the latest result.
Forgot to mention that I am not doing a finishing pass yet.


https://s15.postimg.org/9qwor50ij/IMG_20170418_103302537_HDR.jpg

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 01:01 PM
Cut my product's case rear end.

Not perfect. Some work to do on the CAM but in terms of output it is great.

https://s28.postimg.org/urwqp7xpp/IMG_20170418_123314987_HDR.jpg

Really do need a chamfer bit...

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 04:13 PM
So I started playing with the 6mm that was included. Worked well at first.
Was getting some nice test cuts with it so decided to give it ago milling out my case.

https://s2.postimg.org/fhhof5htl/IMG_0871.jpg

Working well for a good 45 mins. I had the feed rate at 200% as my stock settings was making quite a fine chip.
Having it at 200% made a much nicer chip that flew straight off.

It got to about 2/3s the way down the 15mm bit of aluminium and the sound frequency changed.
Went to check it out and I went to pause it but suddenly the bit started to get hot so the chips welded onto the bit.

Doh

Obviously can't go that fast when the ali has warmed up and you are doing 2mm cuts.

Was only air cooling though. I found water kept clogging up the chips and well I don't have any proper coolant system or liquid...

https://s30.postimg.org/nsdrrqb1t/Capture.jpg

njhussey
18-04-2017, 04:20 PM
WD40 is good, a squirt every now and then or buy a mist system on ebay (10 ish) and you'll be good to go...

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 04:21 PM
If you are getting fine chips or dust, rather than upping your feed consider dropping your rpm to keep the material removal rate at a reasonable level... it will help control the heat production and reduce issues with tool deflection/chatter when compared to ramping up the feed rate. You need quite a rigid machine to get away with the high feed rates associated with faster rpm.

Bear in mind of course that these spindles don't really like much below 12k rpm for sustained periods. Coolant allows you to sustain a higher removal rate than dry cutting of course, but it isn't absolutely vital for good results it just makes dialing in those feeds/speeds a bit more critical. Chips do look better in that pic above.

This is where single flute give an advantage as you are effectively running at half the rpm vs a comparable 2 flute bit.

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 04:23 PM
WD40 is good, a squirt every now and then or buy a mist system on ebay (10 ish) and you'll be good to go...

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk


I actually found some draper cutting oil the other day that works better than wd40 imo (doesn't smell as bad when it evaporates off a hot tool either!) https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001U7SOKU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's a good temporary solution to no coolant I reckon!

Mist system is the better long term solution though, you already have the compressor so it's not difficult to set one up from there.

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 05:42 PM
I didn't think to turn the rpm down... Make sense :p

This is what i got in terms of mister.
https://s22.postimg.org/dww2i39b5/IMG_20170418_173737640_HDR.jpg

Though it it either just air or a fire hose...


Got the three flute with the bobbled edges coming tomorrow.
So will get to try that out with the lower rpm on the two flute.
No single flutes for at least two weeks :/

Wonder if the Banggood ones are worth trying. Might have some in their EU warehouse.

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 05:46 PM
A mister unit will usually have two feeds going into it, an air line and a coolant line, and will have needle valves on both to vary the mix. They are generally designed to work on venturi but you are better off providing a pressurised coolant flow to them - you'll get bigger droplets rather than a pervasive fog.

I see yours looks to have a hose in the back for coolant but I see no second valve for controlling the flow, only a single valve which I assume is controlling the air flow.

this is the type I'm using http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mist-Coolant-Lubrication-Spray-System-for-CNC-Lathe-Milling-Drill-Grind-Machine-/152064811257?hash=item2367c4e0f9:g:sX8AAOSwUuFWzUw K

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 05:50 PM
This one had a shitty one on the air feed.
Took it off as i have variable regulator on the compressor.

Going to look on eBay for a water tank with pressure feed inlet.

Boyan Silyavski
18-04-2017, 08:07 PM
Here is an overview of my fog-less system and in video description are mentioned all major details so you can DIY one. A properly made one, i mean. Hope that helps you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVu4mCFCvmA

JOGARA
20-04-2017, 04:16 AM
Any recommendations on bits for fillets?
Like a round over tool for routers.

Also looking for alternatives to something like the Haimer Universal 3D Sensor.

Was looking at Zeeflyboy's link to the TPA2 but need something soonish and cheaper :p

JOGARA
21-04-2017, 01:15 PM
Does this look about right for this 3 flute roughing bit?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/economy-3-flute-roughing-carbide-end-mills-for-aluminium/3-flute-carbide-roughing-end-mill-for-aluminium-6mm-diameter.html

https://s15.postimg.org/9220ieq63/Capture.png

I have a feeling that 3000mm/s is too much. Gwizard is saying 1000mm/s.

Clive S
21-04-2017, 01:44 PM
1000/S ? Do you mean 1000mm/min

JOGARA
21-04-2017, 01:52 PM
Doh

Of course :p


Also, not 100% on the 1mm and 2mm. Wanted the single flutes but having to wait. Might as well try these.

JOGARA
24-04-2017, 11:10 AM
Really struggling with the feeds and speeds for this 3 flute roughing bit.

Works fine for a few seconds then starts to chatter.

Guessing it is also a cooling problem?
Got the mister blowing a lot of air on it, also tried with a bit of water but same problem.

Zeeflyboy
25-04-2017, 12:11 PM
I have gummed up the roughing bits on more than one occasion when milling ecocast plate... to the extent that I actually had to dissolve the aluminium to get it off the cutters. What feeds/speeds and DoC/step over have you been trying?

Like I said they are definitely far more sensitive to incorrect speeds and feeds than single or 2 flute, proper coolant/lubrication would widen your envelope significantly.

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 04:49 PM
I have gummed up the roughing bits on more than one occasion when milling ecocast plate... to the extent that I actually had to dissolve the aluminium to get it off the cutters. What feeds/speeds and DoC/step over have you been trying?

Like I said they are definitely far more sensitive to incorrect speeds and feeds than single or 2 flute, proper coolant/lubrication would widen your envelope significantly.

Tried 500 and 1000 mm/m at their recommendation of 13000 RPM.
Only tried 2mm DoC.
Not sure what to try next.

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 06:35 PM
removed......

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 07:05 PM
So it looks like heavy mist/flood works really well.

The finish quality is really good too.


Having some odd problem where the Gcode is saying helical down, but Mach3 isn't doing it. It is still running the rest of the code as it should be but ignores Z.

Zeeflyboy
25-04-2017, 08:19 PM
It's only just started doing it?

Does the axis travel in mach (i.e. is the Z travelling in the mach "DRO" for the Z axis?). Sure you haven't accidentally picked the wrong post processor?

Does the simulation in fusion work as expected? Quite possible you accidentally set the depth to a top contour if not.

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 08:44 PM
It worked fine when I did the simple 2D plate of 5mm.
So physically I know the spindle can go down further.


Does the axis travel in mach (i.e. is the Z travelling in the mach "DRO" for the Z axis?).
No idea what that is. Will look into it.

Using the stock Mach3 from Fusion.
https://s30.postimg.org/ebhwfzs0x/Capture.jpg

Simulator works fine. Even goes down the -2mm I set off the bottom of the stock.
https://s8.postimg.org/sshby9h2t/Capture.jpg

The Gcode says the Z to go further,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeVdz5GYEEU&feature=youtu.be

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 06:26 AM
you need more like 22000rpm and 3000mm/min with 3 flute roughing bit at 3mm depth of cut. heavily cooled by air at least. But that are speeds and feeds for very rigid machine or a mill

0.07mm feed per tooth on aluminum? i dont think so, especially on your machine. Lower the depth of cut and look to eliminate any chatter. Or lower feed per tooth to 0.3 lowering your feed speed half.

Just make a video to hear whats going on and we will tell you whats wrong...

JOGARA
26-04-2017, 11:25 AM
you need more like 22000rpm and 3000mm/min with 3 flute roughing bit at 3mm depth of cut. heavily cooled by air at least. But that are speeds and feeds for very rigid machine or a mill

0.07mm feed per tooth on aluminum? i dont think so, especially on your machine. Lower the depth of cut and look to eliminate any chatter. Or lower feed per tooth to 0.3 lowering your feed speed half.

Just make a video to hear whats going on and we will tell you whats wrong...


This is what I am currently using under heavy mist and it works quite well.
2mm DoC

https://s27.postimg.org/dbm9df4zn/Capture.jpg


This is the surface finish.

https://s16.postimg.org/vfjt4uk11/IMG_20170425_201125061_HDR.jpg

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 04:58 PM
Seems you have it under control now. Thats the surface finish after the roughing, right?

JOGARA
26-04-2017, 05:03 PM
Seems you have it under control now. Thats the surface finish after the roughing, right?

Still having the Z axis problem.

Yes that is surface finish, you can feel those horizontal lines rubbing up and down with your finger.
Will be fine for external finish once I sand it down with a fine grit.

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 05:08 PM
For me Mach3 when bugged always had only one cure possible. Reinstall all clean and start from there. You will not believe the number of times that Mach3 bugged during the last 4 years and cure was the same. Thanks god now i dont have to use it.

JOGARA
26-04-2017, 05:10 PM
For me Mach3 when bugged always had only one cure possible. Reinstall all clean and start from there. You will not believe the number of times that Mach3 bugged during the last 4 years and cure was the same. Thanks god now i dont have to use it.

If I do that I lose my XY position though :p
It is only a test bit but rather not start again.

What are you using now?

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 05:39 PM
DDCSV1. It started as a joke, i just had returned the Pokeys57cnc and was wondering what better controller to buy. I have written a lot in the forum about said controller use search function in forum. So at the end it worked so well i did not feel the need to buy the more expensive offline controller i had in mind.
But back to Mach3? God No. Only for special purpose machine where/if i can not avoid it in any other way.

I have basically 0 min downtime last half year in workshop and thousands of things done. I had at least 1 week downtime /if not more/ the previous half year . And the last 5 years if we put together the time i have lost installing windows, Mach3, reconfiguring, boards, plugins, figuring how to make things work...I have lost a couple of months with Mach3, plugins and boards.

JOGARA
27-04-2017, 03:38 PM
https://img.memesuper.com/4f9cf15fc87252690cc40d82e5bb5cf9_homer-simpsons-reaction-homer-doh-meme_788-500.jpeg

So because I lowered my stickout with the new roughing bit and pretty much all the others, I forgot to lower my spindel to compensate.

Which meant it was hitting the Z limit thus not going lower than 10mm.

JOGARA
27-04-2017, 08:39 PM
Need to work on this 2mm bit.
I already use the rouging bit to hog out most of the material. Just need more square holes.

https://s3.postimg.org/45z85unrn/IMG_20170427_193438424_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/qhx0z8mvj/)


Here it is from the other side.

https://s3.postimg.org/ym553z9ar/IMG_20170427_195639280_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/zbnxgc9u7/)

Clive S
27-04-2017, 09:58 PM
Well you can't make a square hole with a round bit, so if you need it more square use a smaller bit.:encouragement:

Neale
27-04-2017, 10:34 PM
Well you can't make a square hole with a round bit, so if you need it more square use a smaller bit.:encouragement:

...or overcut into the corners and have a bezel to hide it!

JOGARA
28-04-2017, 10:21 AM
Well you can't make a square hole with a round bit, so if you need it more square use a smaller bit.:encouragement:

That is why I step down to a 2mm bit.
All the holes are different in that I tried different things with them.

The middle one worked the best as the buttons are not fully square themselves.

Boyan Silyavski
28-04-2017, 10:59 AM
Maybe its wiser and easier to drill the corners first. Then pocket with the bigger bit.

JOGARA
30-04-2017, 01:33 PM
Not perfect but I think I have got it down pretty well.

I don't have a 3D probe yet so whenever I reset the machine I am obvious out somewhat.
The last operation of cutting out the case was well out for some reason..

https://s14.postimg.org/ba2tw7u5t/IMG_20170430_132245327.jpg
https://s14.postimg.org/7rqtztt9t/IMG_20170430_132238414_HDR.jpg


I am working now on setting up a spoil board underneath the stock to then super glue my stock to.
This means I am not cutting out something floating in mid air.

Just another bit of aluminum stock will do that I can then glue my work stock onto with super glue?

JOGARA
30-04-2017, 09:25 PM
Well superglue worked really well.
Surprised how quickly the two bits stuck together as soon as I got the air out of the gap.
Much better than cutting in the air.

https://s7.postimg.org/afe5usri3/IMG_20170430_195947468.jpg
https://s7.postimg.org/z7ds218or/IMG_20170430_201659530.jpg



Main problem atm is the water.
Thinking of building a dedicated table for the machine which is basically a drip tray that I can then have doors on each side and all the stuff bellow like the controller, spindle cooling res, cooling water etc.
Means I can flood cool too. Which will be quieter than using the air compressor.

Thoughts?

Boyan Silyavski
02-05-2017, 08:18 AM
We are cutting steel on mills with mist so not to use coolant and you are going backwards. Cooling with liquid is nice for a production setup but for home? The less, the better. Mist is better for home. Do it properly as i have made it and there will be no problem. With one nozzle you can cool up to 25mm bits.

JOGARA
03-05-2017, 11:51 AM
Thinking about it you are right.

Going to make a bed for the CNC that can hold the water that comes off the mist.
I actually had the bottle about a meter above the cnc the other day and just the water alone worked fine by the looks of it.
No air just gravity fed water.



Anyone tried these?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutters-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutter-for-general-use-30mm-radius-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html

There are 2 Flute ones but only in the US from the looks of it.
I need to put a nice round edge on my product housing and these look to be the only thing available.

JOGARA
03-05-2017, 11:53 AM
Thinking about it you are right.

Going to make a bed for the CNC that can hold the water that comes off the mist.
I actually had the bottle about a meter above the cnc the other day and just the water alone worked fine by the looks of it.
No air just gravity fed water.



Anyone tried these?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutters-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutter-for-general-use-30mm-radius-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html

There are 2 Flute ones but only in the US from the looks of it.
I need to put a nice round edge on my product housing and these look to be the only thing available.

Boyan Silyavski
04-05-2017, 03:49 PM
Thinking about it you are right.

Going to make a bed for the CNC that can hold the water that comes off the mist.
I actually had the bottle about a meter above the cnc the other day and just the water alone worked fine by the looks of it.
No air just gravity fed water.



Anyone tried these?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutters-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutter-for-general-use-30mm-radius-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html

There are 2 Flute ones but only in the US from the looks of it.
I need to put a nice round edge on my product housing and these look to be the only thing available.

I have never tried that ones but seem right. You could always use 90 degree V cutter, trim the corners and slightly sand then afterwards. Just pass them with fine sand paper.

JOGARA
04-05-2017, 03:54 PM
Just order it with a ball nose too.
Might as well try it, might be perfect.


Still trying to work out how I am going to reduce my water problem.
Going to be moving house in about 5-6 months so I am thinking of making a dedicated table for the rig.

One which has some decent casters on it so I can wheel it around and then some retractable feet that had then go down to make it solid.


The main thing for me is adding a box around it with window so the noise is reduced and so is the mess.
I have aluminum everywhere in my workshop atm so building it into a box where all the mess drops into a pan under the cnc is sort of what I am thinking of doing.

Means I can also use as much mist coolant as I need and it will just drip into the pan and not onto my workdesk.



Over complicating things or pretty solid idea?
Main thing for me is reducing mess externally of the machine and not having water everywhere..

Zeeflyboy
08-05-2017, 11:06 AM
I have made a tray that sits on the bed and is water tight - works for trapping coolant (I put a drain port in the front too) and also for cutting composites underwater. It also traps I would say 70-80% of alu chips.

Maybe a similar thing might work for you.

http://i.imgur.com/XSJ4CPv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/YUSriYf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wisZVso.jpg

JOGARA
08-05-2017, 11:45 AM
That looks perfect for what I need thanks.

I am guessing it is a bit of Acetal sheet for the base?

Zeeflyboy
08-05-2017, 07:04 PM
Acetal is a good choice, just want something with low water absorption and high dimensional stability.

When I make another for the new machine I intend to use SRBP.

I just used acrylic for the sides and then machined the bed area down, fixed the eco cast plate in place and then ran the drill cycle for the screws that hold it down and the hole pattern I required for work holding.

JOGARA
08-05-2017, 07:30 PM
My only concern atm is that I use a vice to hold my work.
In my operation I need to flip the piece to run a 2nd op on the other side.

At the moment I don't have any way to calibrate the vice other than using the CNC's edge as a guide (which works really well at the size of stuff I am doing.


I am guessing my only option is to mill down to make it flat, but leave a lip to push my vice against to get it level?

Was going to get a Haimer Universal 3D Sensor at some stage but it is too long I think for this X6.

Zeeflyboy
08-05-2017, 07:47 PM
Can drill holes for DIN dowel pins for alignment. If your vice doesn't have any alignment holes then you can just put two in on one side and butt the vice up against it. Obviously it won't be perfect unless the vice has a milled edge but it's at least as accurate as your current method of aligning to the edge of the CNC

JOGARA
08-05-2017, 09:26 PM
Can drill holes for DIN dowel pins for alignment. If your vice doesn't have any alignment holes then you can just put two in on one side and butt the vice up against it. Obviously it won't be perfect unless the vice has a milled edge but it's at least as accurate as your current method of aligning to the edge of the CNC

It has space under it that will allow me to have the pins protrude to the vice's solid side and I can get it level that way.

Should only cost about 50 all in which sounds about right.

JOGARA
09-05-2017, 02:03 PM
So it came to 60.

Not going the full 700mm, only 500mm so I have some room at the back to use for things not needing the water bed.
With 50-100mm hang over that means half of the table is water bed, half stock where I can put a wood spoil board.


Guessing that 2 Flute bit that came with the unit will be enough to cut the few guide pin holes and screw holes?

JOGARA
14-05-2017, 06:37 PM
Desperately need a way to set offsets on X and Y.

Looked at the Haimer stuff again but even their smallest one is over 100mm long.
The X6 has 85mm of travel in Z so really pushing it I think if I was to get one of those.

Any other options out there?
That TPA2 is still not in stock.

Zeeflyboy
20-05-2017, 08:39 PM
if machining metals then all you really need is a rod of known diameter (e.g. 6mm), then you can use probing to find the edges just like the Z-height probe does.

The downside is that it only works with conductive materials, that's one area where a proper touch probe has an advantage.

JOGARA
30-05-2017, 02:12 PM
I'll try that method and see how well it goes.
Ta

Any recommendations on what I can put in my water cooling to prevent rust?
Not been able to work for 2 weeks and the outlet pipe is going rusty gold.

Zeeflyboy
30-05-2017, 04:30 PM
you just got an open loop?

some antifreeze would probably do the job, and keep the tub covered and out of reach of any pets/children

JOGARA
30-05-2017, 04:48 PM
you just got an open loop?

some antifreeze would probably do the job, and keep the tub covered and out of reach of any pets/children

Yes open loop into a tub.
Does it have to be just antifreeze or is screenwash okay?

Zeeflyboy
30-05-2017, 04:49 PM
don't think screenwash has any anti-corrosion inhibitors which is really what you are after.

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/p/-/-/-/-/?523770511&0&cc5_866&gclid=CK_Z2Pb7l9QCFUg6GwodLDEB_A

something like that would do

JOGARA
30-05-2017, 10:35 PM
don't think screenwash has any anti-corrosion inhibitors which is really what you are after.

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/p/-/-/-/-/?523770511&0&cc5_866&gclid=CK_Z2Pb7l9QCFUg6GwodLDEB_A

something like that would do

Ahhh okay.
Ill go see what they have at Halfords.

Needs to have some colour in it as I did not realise a few weeks ago that my pump was off >.<
Got a bit hot...

JOGARA
31-05-2017, 01:36 PM
Wondering if I could get some feedback on this cabinet design.

Would love to make it out of Aluminum profile but that is like 300-400 for a full cabinet.
So making it out of wood and painting it with water resistant something...
Main reason why I am going for a full tower is that I need the machine enclosed to lower the mess it creates.
That and it takes up a load of desk space that could be better used if the CNC was in a vertical form.

I have added a catch pan draw that will allow me to blow/brush off chips from the machine and parts and they can all land there to collect.
It will be water tight tough I might add a slop to it with a drain to allow the coolant to drain out as it builds up, allowing me to reuse some of it once filtered.

Windows/doors to the right are the main access to change things on the machine like stock, vice etc as they both open out.
The front window/door is to access the machine mostly while running. Which is why I am considering making it slide up so it is easy to get to the part being worked on.
The left doors are just for servicing.
The back is fully boarded with 12mm wood to add strength to the build.

Underneath is enough room for control box, PC tower, spindle cooling tank, fresh coolant and coolant collection.


The two beams going from left to right are for the CNC machine to sit on. They will allow for the waste and coolant to drip down below the machine into the catch pan.
It also pulls out to allow one to remove waste.



https://s15.postimg.org/ar0l05opn/CNC_Machine_housing_v11a.png (https://postimg.org/image/654grt36f/)

https://s15.postimg.org/hg74g6a1n/CNC_Machine_housing_v11b.png (https://postimg.org/image/ojezvsfh3/)

https://s15.postimg.org/lbaiiqt7f/CNC_Machine_housing_v11c.png (https://postimg.org/image/ouwg8jvx3/)

https://s15.postimg.org/78ol3rntn/CNC_Machine_housing_v11_1.png (https://postimg.org/image/41u1k53dj/)

JOGARA
03-08-2017, 12:50 AM
Been a busy few months.

Ordering a lot of stock aluminum for the product housing.

https://s3.postimg.org/nvx468m8v/IMG_20170802_123414149_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/nvx468m8v/)


The unlevel bed started to show up in the finish if the housing so a bit of 8mm on the bed and faced it off about 1mm down. Oddly not that much difference in it so thinking the vice might be causing the unlevel finish. Might make some soft jaws that custom fit the housing anyway so that will make it level.

https://s3.postimg.org/gwj26vman/IMG_20170802_141024393_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/gwj26vman/)


Also as I was ordering a load of circuit boards I whipped up this little ring light to fit the 80mm spindle.
These photos are just testing it but I am going to try and mount it using neodymium magnets.
I know the motor is using magnets so they might not work too well but there looks to be a decent amount of steel there so should be okay.
Take 12v at around 150mAh. Not the brightest in the world but I designed them to help improve lighting on the workpiece not light the whole thing.

https://s3.postimg.org/4gmcd4syn/IMG_20170802_225856181_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4gmcd4syn/)

https://s3.postimg.org/u1ykczg67/IMG_20170802_225907447_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/u1ykczg67/)

https://s3.postimg.org/7yyc9itun/IMG_20170802_225934673_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/7yyc9itun/)


I also made my cabinet.
Didn't make a whole stand like I designed a month ago. Don't really have the space for it so made a table top cabinet.

The base is actually from a Ikea bookcase. No idea where it came from. Think it was a shelf we ordered but was the wrong size, but it was perfect for this use...
The sides are just that regular chipboard? from B&Q. Everything painted with 3-4 coats of gloss. All joints filled with silicone.

The base is slanted to allow water (coolant) to run down into a small rain gutter.
2 doors on the front using 5mm acrylic.
No roof yet, will make one eventually as the noise comes from there and chips when blowing fly out of it xD


https://s1.postimg.org/209hi9v9or/IMG_20170722_160041422.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/209hi9v9or/)

https://s1.postimg.org/61y8au5vbf/IMG_20170722_160047321.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/61y8au5vbf/)

https://s1.postimg.org/20z0am8a8b/IMG_20170722_160114377.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/20z0am8a8b/)

JOGARA
10-08-2017, 04:17 PM
https://s28.postimg.org/j7tbdghkd/IMG_20170809_175644893_HDR.jpg

Magnets look to work. IDK about vibrations but never really had any.

I have a few boards left over (12) if anyone wants some.
1 plus postage I think is fair.

Zeeflyboy
10-08-2017, 09:11 PM
looking very nice.

I did a similar thing with a waterproof ring of LEDs I just bought off ebay, can't say I ever ended up using it much though.