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JOGARA
15-02-2017, 04:28 PM
Hi everyone.

I am pretty new to CNC and milling but I have a couple months to learn.
Been watching a lot of videos on YouTube so starting to build up a bit of basic knowledge.

My project requires a case for the electronics and sensors as well as mounting fixings.
I have been developing it using 3D printing and I was originally going to manufacture the cases this way but while I am okay with this for my own use, selling it as a product for people to use I am not so keen on.


So I am looking at using a CNC milling machine to make the case instead so it is a nice solid product.
Why not aluminium? Well we are using wireless transceivers inside the product so metal is out of the question.

My idea is to then use 15mm polypropylene sheet instead to get the same sort of light wight properties and strength (small sized case, about 100x45mm).


Are these China CNC milling machines okay for this?
I have seen them eat 10mm aluminium so this should be fine right?


My understanding of milling plastic is speed and sharp tools to reduce heat and thus the plastic melting.
There is less horse power needed as it is more speed than anything, though I still want a powerful spindle for future proofing..

I am also looking at the 6040 over the 3040 for future larger projects.

Software wise I use 123D Design for modelling the case.
For the CNC I plan on using Mach4 for controlling and Fusion 360 for the CAD stuff.


I understand that the controllers that come with the China CNCs are pretty, crap though they get the job done.
So was thinking of getting something like a TinyG right off the bat.
I am pretty good at electronics, I designed the circuitry for this product using micro controllers and built and customised a 3D printer so wiring up a new controller is fine with me.

I am aware that these China machines don't have end stops. So would be adding them as well.


Am I on the right path here?


As for hardware, I am stuck between ordering a complete package and picking things individually.
My thinking, ordering something like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Stock-4-Axis-6040-1500W-CNC-Router-Engraver-Engraving-Milling-Machine-220V-/262844665954?hash=item3d32c35062:g:UXQAAOSwDFNWFJQ E would be best for just getting everything I need.

Or do I order everything separately so I can get the upgraded spindle and not pay for the controller if upgrading to the TinyG is much better than using stock?


I am sure a lot of this has been asked before. I have done a bit of searching but thought it might be worth just posting and seeing what people say.

Thanks
Jack,

Robin Hewitt
15-02-2017, 08:50 PM
The best plastic for machining is hard polyurethane. Thermoplastics and nylon tend to string, acrylic melts and then congeals around your tool. If you are thinking to machine plastic, try a chunk of Tufset or similar. Mind you, it will spoil you for anything else.

njhussey
15-02-2017, 09:11 PM
I love machining Acetal, it chips beautifully gives a nice smooth finish. Cant comment on the Ting G controller but if this is potentially for business then I'd build your own control panel, make your own PSU etc. etc. You'll be updrading the 6040 after a while so at least you'd have decent electronics...

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JOGARA
15-02-2017, 09:26 PM
I was looking at this stuff. https://www.cutplasticsheeting.co.uk/polypropylene-sheeting/black-polypropylene
Cost wise it is perfect and I can get it in good little custom sized sheets that will do one case each.

Googled "hard polyurethane" but not seeing much. Got some more info on that Robin?


Not heard of Acetal before, though I am no plastics expert :p
Will take a look at it.

I would like to encase the machine once I get it all setup and working though this will be after the production run due to limited time.
Plan on having it in a tower case like a HAAS milling machine mainly so it is all self contained and can be plugged in and turned on.
Moving house soon so having it like that will help with storage and keeping stuff clean.

My main thing about the electronics is having it sort of reliable long term.
I would like to just be able to turn it on and not have a problem that then takes a day or a week to fix because the China circuit board decided to blow up or drivers die...

njhussey
15-02-2017, 09:32 PM
Have a look at https://www.directplastics.co.uk/engineering-plastics/ they have lots of plastic stuff there [emoji2]

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JOGARA
15-02-2017, 09:46 PM
Have a look at https://www.directplastics.co.uk/engineering-plastics/ they have lots of plastic stuff there [emoji2]

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Ah nice, thanks.

jono5axe
15-02-2017, 11:02 PM
Hello Jack

If I understand correctly, you have a project that you are now ready to commercialise. This will require manufacturing of plastic electronics housings and mounting brackets, for which you are considering cnc milling as the manufacturing method.

I would just suggest at this point that this possibly not commercially sound, and that you should consider vacuum forming, injection molding (or other plastic molding process), or closed mold GRP, etc. You may also consider purchasing an existing enclosure from one of a multitude of manufacturers/supplier of cheap enclosures.

CNC milled plastic may be commercially viable for simple flat profiles, or if only small quantities are required, but for example, an electronics enclosure (even a small one) milled from thick stock material has a high degree of material wastage.

Having said that, you may still need a CNC router for assisting to make your prototype vacuum forming molds and/or composites molds, which would typically be made in wood or aluminium. Another option, using your 3D printer, is that you could 3D print molds/patterns for brackets/boxes/etc then take composites molds from the printed models. You can also send 3D printed models of molds to an investment casting foundry and receive back an accurate aluminium or steel casting ready for prep/use as your plastics/composites mold.

I would recommend looking at vacuum forming, as it is quite simple, especially for small parts.

Regards, Jono

JOGARA
16-02-2017, 02:25 PM
Hi Jono

My case has 5 PCBs in it in different orientations and types of mounting as well as fixings for mounting onto tripods (technically for injection moulding but work fine when heated and pressed into plastic).

I have looked at injection moulding but the starting costs put me off quite a bit.
And vacuum forming and off the self cases wont work because of the requirements of the internal layout.


The case is basically two flat 15-16mm sheets pushed together with their internals milled out for the PCB, sensors and connectors.
Works out at around £5 per case using Acetal and £1 using Polypropylene. So material cost is not a problem with these solutions.

This is why I am aiming for milling because it should give me the quality people are after with a product as well as it being at a low price point similar to the 3D printing solution.


Unless if I am missing something here? xD

Zeeflyboy
16-02-2017, 04:10 PM
Well it's certainly a lot more viable for low scale production than 3D printing is... It all comes down to how much volume you are expecting.

Injection tooling is indeed pretty expensive, only really makes sense if you are selling relatively high volumes and can spread the cost against at least several thousand units. I didn't pay for it myself but when we had the tooling made up for a drone I designed I think it was in the order of $10,000 to get the molds made (in china).

You would probably find a CNC a useful addition even just from a prototyping stand point - 3D printers are great, but the ability to work with PCBs, a variety of plastics, composites and some metals opens up more options to you that might be useful... not to mention much faster for making most things.

6040 is very much a generic term - some manufacturers are better than others, especially on the electronics front... One advantage of just buying a frame and adding your own electronics is that you can buy some better kit which you can then transfer to another machine if you decide you need something bigger or better.

I would recommend that you go for one with proper profile rails (e.g. HG20) rather than round rail - they are far superior. That particular machine you linked to actually simply has completely unsupported round rail for the X-axis gantry - don't bother with that... I had a similar machine in the past and there is a significant amount of flex from that design even when just pushing the spindle with your hand.

jono5axe
16-02-2017, 09:03 PM
Hello Jack, you've obviously done your homework on that stuff, and your part/design/method sounds to be even quite elegant.

Re injection molding, tooling should fit in a $5k envelope I would have thought, especially if your 'half shells' can be a mirror of each other, i.e. a single part.

Regards, Jono

JOGARA
16-02-2017, 09:37 PM
Spent a few hours looking into control boards and stuff.
People where saying the parallel boards that come with the China CNC machines are not worth it (because they are limited to just doing stepper control) so I would rather not use them.

Boards like the TinyG are controllers in themselves (I thought they worked with Mach3, bad YouTubers misleading me there), they don't run with software like Mach3 because they are hardware controllers.
They take the Gcode and control the motors, while Mach3 is a softwarecontroller that sends the movement data/signals to the drivers directly via serial or other interface.


I think what I am after is one of these "breakout boards".
This one (which comes with a lot of the stepper kits) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262849334835
http://g03.a.alicdn.com/kf/UT88VGFXetdXXagOFbX5/118948726/UT88VGFXetdXXagOFbX5.jpg
Looks to be what I am after.
4 Axis (only need 3) stepper control, spindle PWM, 3 relays for pump, air etc, home/limit switches and a couple IO ports.

Still China made but it comes with the motor kit so it should work fine with that setup.


It all comes down to how much volume you are expecting.

That is the thing. I am not expecting more than 100. Probably not even 50. But at least 25 to make it worth doing the production run.

I have always wanted a CNC table/mill. I want to do a few personal wood projects and some 5-10mm aluminium plate and I think now is a good time to get one.


That rail is a concern. There have been a few videos demonstration this but for what I am doing I don't think it will be that bad?
Most said it was okay though larger jobs it started to cause problems.






I really do like the idea of putting a kit together rather than buying a premade one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Stock-4-Axis-1500W-6040-CNC-Router-Engraver-Engraving-Milling-Machine-220V-/252773463708?hash=item3ada78f69c:g:UXQAAOSwDFNWFJQ E
This one looks the the standard 6040 and is around ~£1,500

But I could put together this kit together for around £1,200. But I get the upgraded 2.2kW spindle, controller and beefer steppers.
Base - £650 - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040-CNC-router-milling-machine-mechanical-kit-ball-screw-Aluminum-clamp-can-interchangeable-65mm-or-80mm/2050992624.html?spm=2114.13010308.0.0.4cDNN7
2.2kW spindle/driver - £200 - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252593036650
Steppers - ~£230 - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-products-3-axis-CNC-kit-Nema-23-Stepper-Motor-Dual-Shaft-425oz-in-112mm-3A/907217_1139071798.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.NtqLm 6
Stepper mounts - ~£15 - Trying to find some EU stock. Only China atm :/ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3Pcs-Nema23-Motor-mounts-bracket-57-stepper-motor-bracket/32308917365.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.268.f7 AXAm
Cables, Water pump, Tube, cable bendy thing etc - ~75-100

Sounds like a better deal to me...

njhussey
16-02-2017, 11:17 PM
The problem with "kits" of parts, especially electronics is that they are not well matched. The stepper motors will probably be high inductance ones, the switch mode PSU will be underated and so it wont run as well as it should. You'd be far better off getting your motors from Zapp or somewhere like that where they'll be good ones.

As. You're electrically minded building a custom P S U should be a breeze...

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JOGARA
16-02-2017, 11:26 PM
The problem with "kits" of parts, especially electronics is that they are not well matched. The stepper motors will probably be high inductance ones, the switch mode PSU will be underated and so it wont run as well as it should. You'd be far better off getting your motors from Zapp or somewhere like that where they'll be good ones.

As. You're electrically minded building a custom P S U should be a breeze...

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Ill take a look at the Zapp stuff, thanks.

As for the power supply, if I get my motors from Zapp I can get an OP supply.
Those Chinese switch modes are pretty good though. I have a 12v one powering a lot of stuff in my workshop 24/7 as well as my 3D printer and CCTV system.

njhussey
16-02-2017, 11:38 PM
The switch mode ones don't take back EMF from the drivers when the machine is decelerating. If you make a linear PSU with some nice big caps then this is best, and you can make it to the ideal voltage. You really want some nice 80V drivers and a 72V PSU...then it'll fly which is what you need to cut plastic. I cut UHMWPE at 8000mm/min, your matched set wont get near that.

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JOGARA
16-02-2017, 11:43 PM
The switch mode ones don't take back EMF from the drivers when the machine is decelerating. If you make a linear PSU with some nice big caps then this is best, and you can make it to the ideal voltage. You really want some nice 80V drivers and a 72V PSU...then it'll fly which is what you need to cut plastic. I cut UHMWPE at 8000mm/min, your matched set wont get near that.

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Hmm good point.
I am not too good with power supplies. As in making them. I typically just get off the shelf.

Have you made your own?

njhussey
16-02-2017, 11:55 PM
Yes, have a read through the build logs...plenty have done them.

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Clive S
17-02-2017, 12:10 AM
Hmm good point.
I am not too good with power supplies. As in making them. I typically just get off the shelf.

Have you made your own?There are only 3 main components (toroidal transformer, rectifier & a couple of caps) or you could buy one from Zapp

JOGARA
17-02-2017, 12:26 AM
Isn't there a way to dump excess power coming back from steppers?

Like resistors or something.

Neale
17-02-2017, 12:40 AM
Isn't there a way to dump excess power coming back from steppers?

Like resistors or something.

Unfortunately not. There are two main problems with the switch-mode PSUs in this application, although they are great and very cost-effective elsewhere. One is the back emf issue as mentioned, while linear power supplies dump excess power into the smoothing caps (one way to look at it, anyway). The other is that linear supplies are much more tolerant of peak overload. A switch-mode supply tends to hard-limit, maybe even shut down temporarily, if you try to draw more than rated current where a linear supply output will tend to just sag a bit which is not usually a problem. If you are now looking at Mach3, you might also consider something like a UC100 or UC300 with UCCNC which is looking like an attractive option these days. Still need a break-out board but it's a better option than using Mach3 and parallel port.

JOGARA
17-02-2017, 08:16 PM
Okay, so I looked into toroidal based supplies and they are easy to make. So should be no time to spin a board for one of those.
Do cost a bit to get them off the self, though I know of a place that do them for like 50 euros each at any spec you want.
So might be able to get a decent high amp one for not that much more.


The problem is, the high voltage stepper controllers are not Chinese cheap :p
Looking at £110 per axis :/

I have only looked on Zapp though so far.

Steppers themselves are around £30 each. Makes it around double the cost.
But I guess it is worth it because of needing that extra speed and power?



Regarding the steppers, they state a "Rated Voltage" of around 2-4v.
Do the drivers lower to voltage or because they pulse the stepper they are able to use upwards of 80v?

Neale
17-02-2017, 08:32 PM
Ignore stepper voltage ratings. As you say, the stepper driver effectively pulses the drive voltage; the driver manages the current rather than voltage but the higher voltage allows higher current pulses which helps develop torque. Confused me at first but the stepper driver will have an adjustable current setting which is more useful. That's also why you use a linear power supply - better current pulse capability.

JOGARA
17-02-2017, 08:58 PM
Ignore stepper voltage ratings. As you say, the stepper driver effectively pulses the drive voltage; the driver manages the current rather than voltage but the higher voltage allows higher current pulses which helps develop torque. Confused me at first but the stepper driver will have an adjustable current setting which is more useful. That's also why you use a linear power supply - better current pulse capability.

Thought it was along that line.


As for picking what steppers to get.
Higher amp rating, higher holding torque are what to look out for?
Looking at Zapp, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-motors/nema-23-stepper-motors/sy57sth76-4004a-nema-23-stepper-motor.html

The drivers; http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html
Looks to be the best at the £100-120 option.
80V and 8.2A.



Wondering what controller to get too..

Clive S
17-02-2017, 09:39 PM
Or if you don't mind China https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Leadshine-2-phase-High-precision-stepper-drive-AM882-fit-NEMA-23-34size-motor-work-36/202210_783794956.html

JOGARA
17-02-2017, 10:02 PM
Or if you don't mind China https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Leadshine-2-phase-High-precision-stepper-drive-AM882-fit-NEMA-23-34size-motor-work-36/202210_783794956.html
Didn't think to look elsewhere.
Thanks

Neale
17-02-2017, 11:10 PM
One important thing to look for (and the cheaper stepper motors available online often fail this criterion) is inductance. High inductance may give high torque, but it slows the rate of rise of current through the motor coils which means that the rate of torque increase is also slower. That means that they are OK at slower speeds but with higher speeds/faster pulse rates, the torque drops off. The motors I'm using are 8-wire so that the coils can be wired in series or parallel. Series means lower current but poorer high-speed performance; parallel means higher current draw but better high-speed performance. This is all a bit of a simplification but it's broadly true and why you don't want high-inductance motors if you want to run fast. Does mean bigger PSU and drivers to suit the higher current.

I'm using the Zapp 3Nm NEMA23 motors on a 1500x750 cutting area router. Fairly heavy gantry (maybe 75kg?) driven by two motors and 5mm pitch ballscrews. I'm limited to about 5000mm/min by whip in the ballscrews (I should have used 10mm pitch) but those motors seem to drive that load without problem. I'm also using EM806 drives (from Zapp). I wanted newer digital drives, even though I had some appropriate rating older analogue drives from the Mk1 router, because, apart from generally better performance, they have stall detection. With a dual-motor master/slave axis drive on X, you really, really, don't want one motor to stall while the other keeps running. That could get very messy. I have wired the fault detect signal from the drives back to my motion controller so that if one drive trips, the machine stops very quickly. While setting up and tuning, this happened a couple of times which gives me some reassurance that the system works. I run on about 68V and have wound the motor max current setting to a point that it seems to run reliably on load without overheating the motors. The EM806s are well within their ratings although I have a couple of fans blowing a gentle draught across them.

For motion control, I went for Mach3 and a CSMIO IP/M ethernet controller. It's probably about the best controller around (based on general feedback and reputation) unless you go for its big brother the IP/S which costs about twice as much. The IP/M is not the cheapest option, although once you add in the fact that with "lesser" motion controllers you also need a breakout board, and a decent one that includes spindle speed control is not cheap, it's not that bad. It also uses 24V for signalling which gives better noise and interference rejection compared with 5V systems, and has differential outputs to drive the stepper drivers - again, this is an unusual feature but gives better interference rejection. I fitted mine, wired it all up, and it just worked first time, no messing about. The down side is that the IP/M can drive a master-and-slave axis machine like mine, but it cannot properly home the two axes. In practice, I am finding that this is not a problem and I have a simple manual workaround for this. If I were starting again today (I bought the electronics a couple of years ago), I might consider the UCCNC UC300ETH instead which is a cheaper option and getting a fairly good write-up in forums like this one. Haven't played with one myself though. You can save money by not needing Mach3 and using the UCCNC software which is also getting good feedback. All the same, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

But there are as many opinions in this area as there are CNC builders, so take all my comments as one man's view!

Clive S
17-02-2017, 11:36 PM
Didn't think to look elsewhere.
Thanks

As Neale has pointed out he is using the EM806. Both the AM882 and EM806 have stall detection which is a must when using two motors on one axis. I use the AM882 on my router and not had any trouble with them.

JOGARA
18-02-2017, 01:23 PM
One important thing to look for (and the cheaper stepper motors available online often fail this criterion) is inductance. High inductance may give high torque, but it slows the rate of rise of current through the motor coils which means that the rate of torque increase is also slower. That means that they are OK at slower speeds but with higher speeds/faster pulse rates, the torque drops off. The motors I'm using are 8-wire so that the coils can be wired in series or parallel. Series means lower current but poorer high-speed performance; parallel means higher current draw but better high-speed performance. This is all a bit of a simplification but it's broadly true and why you don't want high-inductance motors if you want to run fast. Does mean bigger PSU and drivers to suit the higher current.

I'm using the Zapp 3Nm NEMA23 motors on a 1500x750 cutting area router. Fairly heavy gantry (maybe 75kg?) driven by two motors and 5mm pitch ballscrews. I'm limited to about 5000mm/min by whip in the ballscrews (I should have used 10mm pitch) but those motors seem to drive that load without problem. I'm also using EM806 drives (from Zapp). I wanted newer digital drives, even though I had some appropriate rating older analogue drives from the Mk1 router, because, apart from generally better performance, they have stall detection. With a dual-motor master/slave axis drive on X, you really, really, don't want one motor to stall while the other keeps running. That could get very messy. I have wired the fault detect signal from the drives back to my motion controller so that if one drive trips, the machine stops very quickly. While setting up and tuning, this happened a couple of times which gives me some reassurance that the system works. I run on about 68V and have wound the motor max current setting to a point that it seems to run reliably on load without overheating the motors. The EM806s are well within their ratings although I have a couple of fans blowing a gentle draught across them.

For motion control, I went for Mach3 and a CSMIO IP/M ethernet controller. It's probably about the best controller around (based on general feedback and reputation) unless you go for its big brother the IP/S which costs about twice as much. The IP/M is not the cheapest option, although once you add in the fact that with "lesser" motion controllers you also need a breakout board, and a decent one that includes spindle speed control is not cheap, it's not that bad. It also uses 24V for signalling which gives better noise and interference rejection compared with 5V systems, and has differential outputs to drive the stepper drivers - again, this is an unusual feature but gives better interference rejection. I fitted mine, wired it all up, and it just worked first time, no messing about. The down side is that the IP/M can drive a master-and-slave axis machine like mine, but it cannot properly home the two axes. In practice, I am finding that this is not a problem and I have a simple manual workaround for this. If I were starting again today (I bought the electronics a couple of years ago), I might consider the UCCNC UC300ETH instead which is a cheaper option and getting a fairly good write-up in forums like this one. Haven't played with one myself though. You can save money by not needing Mach3 and using the UCCNC software which is also getting good feedback. All the same, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

But there are as many opinions in this area as there are CNC builders, so take all my comments as one man's view!

Thanks for all the info.

Looking at the steppers on Zapp, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-motors/nema-23-stepper-motors/sy60sth86-3008bf-nema-23-stepper-motor.html#product_tabs_description_tabbed
These ones are (what I believe) you are talking about?
Parallel with 3.2 inductance and 3Nm holding torque at 4.2A.


Can I ask what power solution you are using to get 68v?


I took a look at those controllers but they are way out of my price range.
Currently the steppers and drivers are costing me £300.
With the added power draw this is another big wedge and means ill have to forfeit the controller with the £30 one off eBay.

I get that it is better to spend more on a CNC router but at a point it starts to run over budget :p

Zeeflyboy
18-02-2017, 01:29 PM
I'm guessing something like this http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/linear-power-supplies/ps806-12-linear-power-supply.html


Yeah these things can snowball, one more expensive item leads to another and so on... reality is most of us are working to a budget so you need to figure out what you are willing to spend and what will be sufficient for your needs.

If budget is starting to pinch, I would also take a look at what areas it's best to put your money into initially. Might be an idea to go for the better controller (e.g. the CSMIO IP/M mentioned above) and just make do with the cheaper steppers until you feel the need to upgrade.

Ultimately of course you end up spending more by buying cheap then replacing, but reality is it gets you up and running in the mean time.

Zeeflyboy
18-02-2017, 01:39 PM
That is the thing. I am not expecting more than 100. Probably not even 50. But at least 25 to make it worth doing the production run.

I have always wanted a CNC table/mill. I want to do a few personal wood projects and some 5-10mm aluminium plate and I think now is a good time to get one.


That rail is a concern. There have been a few videos demonstration this but for what I am doing I don't think it will be that bad?
Most said it was okay though larger jobs it started to cause problems.






I really do like the idea of putting a kit together rather than buying a premade one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Stock-4-Axis-1500W-6040-CNC-Router-Engraver-Engraving-Milling-Machine-220V-/252773463708?hash=item3ada78f69c:g:UXQAAOSwDFNWFJQ E
This one looks the the standard 6040 and is around ~£1,500

But I could put together this kit together for around £1,200. But I get the upgraded 2.2kW spindle, controller and beefer steppers.
Base - £650 - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040-CNC-router-milling-machine-mechanical-kit-ball-screw-Aluminum-clamp-can-interchangeable-65mm-or-80mm/2050992624.html?spm=2114.13010308.0.0.4cDNN7
2.2kW spindle/driver - £200 - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252593036650
Steppers - ~£230 - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-products-3-axis-CNC-kit-Nema-23-Stepper-Motor-Dual-Shaft-425oz-in-112mm-3A/907217_1139071798.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.NtqLm 6
Stepper mounts - ~£15 - Trying to find some EU stock. Only China atm :/ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3Pcs-Nema23-Motor-mounts-bracket-57-stepper-motor-bracket/32308917365.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.268.f7 AXAm
Cables, Water pump, Tube, cable bendy thing etc - ~75-100

Sounds like a better deal to me...


I would really just avoid those unsupported gantries like the plague... yes they may be ok with plastics and wood but they still limit how fast you can push it and will limit you in the future as well if you look to do some harder materials. It is not an area to cut costs imo as it's extremely difficult to upgrade or improve it later without just buying a new machine (which is what I ended up doing).

What is your time scale? I'm probably building myself a new bigger CNC over the next couple of months and the barebones X6-2200L mechanics would be up for grabs once I've done the machining I need to do for you to go to town on with your own electronics. That's like your generic 6040 but with proper profile HG20 type linear rails.

JOGARA
18-02-2017, 01:42 PM
I'm guessing something like this http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/linear-power-supplies/ps806-12-linear-power-supply.html


Yeah these things can snowball, one more expensive item leads to another and so on... reality is most of us are working to a budget so you need to figure out what you are willing to spend and what will be sufficient for your needs.

If budget is starting to pinch, I would also take a look at what areas it's best to put your money into initially. Might be an idea to go for the better controller (e.g. the CSMIO IP/M mentioned above) and just make do with the cheaper steppers until you feel the need to upgrade.

Ultimately of course you end up spending more by buying cheap then replacing, but reality is it gets you up and running in the mean time.

Yea, I am thinking around £1,500 max.

Probably will go for these switching power supplies at first and upgrade later to the better power.
Would allow me to then have the nice steppers and drivers.
But I would also be using the cheap Chinese controller.

That will probably get me started for now. If I then need to upgrade in a few months at least I have done this project and hopefully have another one where I can spend a few more quid on nicer things if they are needed.



I would really just avoid those unsupported gantries like the plague... yes they may be ok with plastics and wood but they still limit how fast you can push it and will limit you in the future as well if you look to do some harder materials. It is not an area to cut costs imo as it's extremely difficult to upgrade or improve it later without just buying a new machine (which is what I ended up doing).

What is your time scale? I'm probably building myself a new bigger CNC over the next couple of months and the barebones X6-2200L mechanics would be up for grabs once I've done the machining I need to do for you to go to town on with your own electronics. That's like your generic 6040 but with proper profile HG20 type linear rails.

Looking at the parts on the one I listed; https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040-CNC-router-milling-machine-mechanical-kit-ball-screw-Aluminum-clamp-can-interchangeable-65mm-or-80mm/2050992624.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.277.umj tYe
Isn't the Y rail supported underneath?
I know it is not linear rails but should be better than the rods just floating?

The X axis ones are floating by the looks of it.

Clive S
18-02-2017, 02:16 PM
Can I ask what power solution you are using to get 68v?

A toroidal transformer 24-0-24v in series with one rectifier and two caps

Neale
18-02-2017, 03:09 PM
A toroidal transformer 24-0-24v in series with one rectifier and two caps

Actually, I'm using a 2x45V toroidal with both windings strapped in parallel to give a single 650W supply. Same thing, really!

My first router used LinuxCNC (cheap - nothing cheaper, in fact) and a parallel port to a cheap breakout board. No spindle (speed or start/stop) control. Old analogue drivers. It worked. Not ideal in many ways, but you don't always need "the best". But you do need something that works for you, and it does need to be reasonably reliable. Best thing, I guess, is to try to understand what compromises you are making by going cheaper and deciding if you can accept that for the time being. The other thing to keep in mind is, "Can I easily upgrade it later?" For example, changing a motion controller or stepper drivers is not too invasive. But changing ballscrews for leadscrews, or supported rails for profile rails, might be more difficult later.

I have probable spent around £2500 on my steel-framed, ballscrewed, profile railed, motion-controlled, 1500x750 router. That's probably typical.

JOGARA
25-02-2017, 08:06 PM
Would something like one of this work?
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=70%2B70&filter_va=&submit=Filter+Results

They have 70+70V so would mean 2 sets of 70V?
From what I know, you can connect these in parallel though you have to be careful to get the phases the correct way round?

As for the rating, thinking 2000VA?

As for caps, 110v and as big as i'd like?

Clive S
25-02-2017, 08:16 PM
Would something like one of this work?
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=70%2B70&filter_va=&submit=Filter+Results

They have 70+70V so would mean 2 sets of 70V?
From what I know, you can connect these in parallel though you have to be careful to get the phases the correct way round?

As for the rating, thinking 2000VA?

As for caps, 110v and as big as i'd like?

Ok what DC voltage to you want to end up with. What steppers are you using and how many.

Read #31 again 650VA should be more than enough try and get caps that are 100V

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=24%2B24&filter_va=625&submit=Filter+Results

JOGARA
25-02-2017, 08:41 PM
Ok what DC voltage to you want to end up with. What steppers are you using and how many.

Read #31 again 650VA should be more than enough try and get caps that are 100V

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/?filter_input_voltage=230&filter_output_voltage=24%2B24&filter_va=625&submit=Filter+Results

Going off what people said, higher voltage the better? So close to the max of the drivers.

As for the drivers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html (buying direct from manufacturer in China)
Steppers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html

Neale
25-02-2017, 08:50 PM
Going off what people said, higher voltage the better? So close to the max of the drivers.


...which is what you will get if you use a lower voltage transformer. Yes, I know it doesn't sound right, but in practice a 45V or so transformer will end up giving you around 68V DC across the smoothing capacitor(s). This also gives a bit of allowance for the fact that the mains input voltage will vary, and the transformer will probably give you about 5% over the rated voltage under light load to allow for a drop when on full load.

EM806 are good drivers.

Clive S
25-02-2017, 08:53 PM
Going off what people said, higher voltage the better? So close to the max of the drivers.

As for the drivers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html (buying direct from manufacturer in China)
Steppers, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-systems/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html

Those are 80V drives so run them at about 68V to allow for the back emf. 24-24 v in series = 48 = about 68V dc when rectified.

AM882 drives would be less dosh and just as good.

Clive S
25-02-2017, 08:54 PM
Snap :surprise:

JOGARA
25-02-2017, 09:00 PM
Those are 80V drives so run them at about 68V to allow for the back emf. 24-24 v in series = 48 = about 68V dc when rectified.

AM882 drives would be less dosh and just as good.


Ohhh
I thought it was 1:1 from transform through rectification.
That makes sense why so many are doing 24-24v.

These are the drivers I am getting https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Leadshine-2-phase-High-precision-stepper-drive-AM882-fit-NEMA-23-34size-motor-work-36/202210_783794956.html?spm=2114.12010615.0.0.9rnD8Q

Forgot I changed to them.


Am I right in saying that when the steppers start up or change direction, they require a lot of amps, but when they are going it is pretty low.
Which is why you are able to get away with lower wattage transformers?



Thanks

Clive S
25-02-2017, 10:11 PM
Am I right in saying that when the steppers start up or change direction, they require a lot of amps, but when they are going it is pretty low.
Which is why you are able to get away with lower wattage transformers?
A 625 va trans former will be fine good choice on the AM882

JOGARA
16-03-2017, 10:36 PM
Doing an order from TME already, saw they sold toroidals.
http://www.tme.eu/gb/details/tst600w_2x24v/toroidal-transformers/indel/tst600008/

Though it is 600VA not 650VA.
That extra few watts going to make much difference?

Clive S
16-03-2017, 10:45 PM
Doing an order from TME already, saw they did toroidals.
http://www.tme.eu/gb/details/tst600w_2x24v/toroidal-transformers/indel/tst600008/

Though it is 600VA not 650VA.
That extra few watts going to make much difference?

That will be fine

JOGARA
16-03-2017, 10:48 PM
That will be fine

Awesome! Thanks.

And my caps came yesterday.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-5PCS-Electrolytic-capacitor-10000UF100V-35-50-Electrolytic-capacitors/2030086709.html

Might as well shove all 5 on?

A_Camera
17-03-2017, 08:11 AM
My idea is to then use 15mm polypropylene sheet instead to get the same sort of light wight properties and strength (small sized case, about 100x45mm).

In my opinion Acetal (Delrin, POM) is the best material. It is not cheap, but it is stable, keeping it's form even in varying temperature and humidity, machinable and you can handle it as you would handle soft metal, yet it is very strong, you can tap it and use ordinary screws for metal. It is not melting easily and the chips produced are nice. I am using it and in my opinion it is the best for milled plastic cases, though it is not light.


Are these China CNC milling machines okay for this?
I have seen them eat 10mm aluminium so this should be fine right?

Can't speak about "China CNC milling machines" in general since I never had one (built and designed my own) but I am pretty sure they can handle Acetal, as well as aluminium, assuming you are using the right feed rate and spindle speed. My first spindle was a cheap 400W DC motor with the maximum RPM of 12000. I used that one for two years on PCB, acrylic and Acetal and is still working, though now replaced with a 1.5kW 24kRPM brushless 3 phase spindle which is of course better. Never the less, it shows that even cheap motors can be used, but you need to adjust the feed rate accordingly. Anyway, with the DC motor I never really dared to work on aluminium, the new one on the other had cuts aluminium just fine.


My understanding of milling plastic is speed and sharp tools to reduce heat and thus the plastic melting.
There is less horse power needed as it is more speed than anything, though I still want a powerful spindle for future proofing..



It doesn't matter which material you work on, speeds and good tools are always critical. Even aluminium melts if you are not doing it right or use bad tools. Anyway, how fast you have to spin the spindle depends on the type of tool and the material, as well as the feed rate. Use a feed rate calculator, practice and learn. Different plastics behave differently, there are even different material qualities, just like there are different grades of aluminium and other material.

I cut everything dry, not using mist and the only air which is blown around the cutter is the one which is sucked in by the dust shoe, so there is not much cooling. Melting is only an issue if you are using the wrong speeds and feeds, or cut too lightly and the chips are far too small. If you must shave material you must be more careful, it is better to produce chips than dust.

CrazeUK
17-03-2017, 11:20 AM
In my opinion Acetal (Delrin, POM) is the best material. It is not cheap, but it is stable, keeping it's form even in varying temperature and humidity, machinable and you can handle it as you would handle soft metal, yet it is very strong, you can tap it and use ordinary screws for metal. It is not melting easily and the chips produced are nice. I am using it and in my opinion it is the best for milled plastic cases, though it is not light.



Can't speak about "China CNC milling machines" in general since I never had one (built and designed my own) but I am pretty sure they can handle Acetal, as well as aluminium, assuming you are using the right feed rate and spindle speed. My first spindle was a cheap 400W DC motor with the maximum RPM of 12000. I used that one for two years on PCB, acrylic and Acetal and is still working, though now replaced with a 1.5kW 24kRPM brushless 3 phase spindle which is of course better. Never the less, it shows that even cheap motors can be used, but you need to adjust the feed rate accordingly. Anyway, with the DC motor I never really dared to work on aluminium, the new one on the other had cuts aluminium just fine.



It doesn't matter which material you work on, speeds and good tools are always critical. Even aluminium melts if you are not doing it right or use bad tools. Anyway, how fast you have to spin the spindle depends on the type of tool and the material, as well as the feed rate. Use a feed rate calculator, practice and learn. Different plastics behave differently, there are even different material qualities, just like there are different grades of aluminium and other material.

I cut everything dry, not using mist and the only air which is blown around the cutter is the one which is sucked in by the dust shoe, so there is not much cooling. Melting is only an issue if you are using the wrong speeds and feeds, or cut too lightly and the chips are far too small. If you must shave material you must be more careful, it is better to produce chips than dust.
Would that mean one should do fewer slower deeper passes, as opposed to faster more shallow passes?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

A_Camera
17-03-2017, 12:10 PM
Would that mean one should do fewer slower deeper passes, as opposed to faster more shallow passes?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I don't think there is a simple answer to that, since it depends on the material, but in general terms it is better if the material is not shaved or rubbed off because that generates too much heat and causes melting. So, some times increasing the depth may help, other times increasing the feed rate, or the spindle speed, and again, some times all three. I am not afraid of doing shallow cuts if needed, but in that case I do it with very high feed rate and the spindle speed, feed rate and the quality of the cutter is more critical there.

When I notice melting (mostly when different acrylic qualities are used) then I try to guess if the feed rate is too slow or if spindle speed increase can be a solution, or if deeper plunge would help. I am by far an expert but normally I can guess pretty well based on my experience, adjust and do it right next time. In my experience it is not always working to have pre-calculated parameters, and one which works this time may not work next time if the material is not exactly the same batch. Never the less, when starting with new material or cutter which I don't have experience with, using a feed rate calculator is a good idea because it gives me a good reference to start from. If the calculated values work then I use it or play with different values in the calculator if I intend to change something, for example if I want to increase feed rate to finish a job faster.

njhussey
17-03-2017, 02:33 PM
Would that mean one should do fewer slower deeper passes, as opposed to faster more shallow passes?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

It also depends on your machine, in fact it's mostly about your machine and how stiff it is and what type of cut you're doing. If you're slotting then you have to go slower or shallower than if you're doing a 60% width stepover pocketing pass.

I'm about to cut some more samples (see photos below) at work in Acetal and I'll be doing 20mm deep cuts with a 6mm 2 flute uncoated carbide mill, I'm using Trochoidal milling mind so don't try to take that deep a cut normally!!

211392113821140

JOGARA
18-03-2017, 09:47 PM
Getting close to the point where I want to buy.

Am I better off just trying to buy a VMC like a Tormach 1100?
I have been looking around for one for a few weeks but they are a bit rare over here.

Also trying to find other options though they are at least £10,000 :/


Might it be worth spending a bit more trying to get a decent 6040 like frame rather than messing with a China frame?
The thing is the part I want to make is not that tricky I don't think. Looks like we will be using 15mm thick aluminium.

Surface finish needs to be at a point where I can just sand it down to a fine grit for anodising.

Thoughts?

[edit]
Looking at some videos, it looks to do fine with pretty deep stuff...

https://youtu.be/KVmf_dac8gY

Zeeflyboy
21-03-2017, 11:10 AM
Again within reasonable bounds, the depth of the material really isn't hugely relevant to the machine's ability to cut it... as long as a tool in an appropriate diameter and length can be found then it really just becomes a question of number of passes.

That last piece must have taken ages to machine at that speed and depth, but as you can see most of these things will have a stab at alu.

If going the chinese router path, I do recommend you avoid any round or unsupported rails if alu is on your to-do list, having owned both I can say you will have much less frustration if you get one that at least has proper HG20 rails... take a look at omioCNC - they make some of the better chinese routers imo (I own an X6-2200L at the moment, building myself a new bigger badder one mostly for fun). If you wanted to go sans-electronics they would probably sell a bare frame if asked.

This is an example of a 20mm plate cut on my X6-2200L:


http://i.imgur.com/y6jXlPu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XAAhxhX.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUc4bTgPjoI

JOGARA
21-03-2017, 09:50 PM
Ill check them out. I get what you are saying and from the looks of the video it is totally worth it.

Where do you get your cutting bits?
Not really looked into that yet.

Zeeflyboy
24-03-2017, 09:46 PM
depends, I use a few places.

Shop-apt are quick and good quality, but I generally use aliexpress a lot these days... there's some really high quality stuff on there at decent enough prices, you just have to wait a bit longer to get them. I've also ordered stuff from BZT in the past for some specific bits I wanted (diamond coated ones for CF), shipping was ridiculous though...

JOGARA
27-03-2017, 01:39 AM
Okay so you pretty much sold me the omioCNC...
Few other threads on it show that it is pretty good.

Question is, do you still use the stock components like the controller, steppers, drivers etc?

And what accessories to get?

Ta

Boyan Silyavski
27-03-2017, 02:15 AM
Why dont you add to your mental map a what a good DIY cnc can do.

6mm depth of cut aluminum, perfect finish. Not 0.6mm, :smiley_simmons: like on video you were watching but real 6mm at around 2000 mm/min , and slot cutting, mind that.


https://goo.gl/photos/f69ooiHd6JN8Q5Ur5

Zeeflyboy
27-03-2017, 09:51 AM
Okay so you pretty much sold me the omioCNC...
Few other threads on it show that it is pretty good.

Question is, do you still use the stock components like the controller, steppers, drivers etc?

And what accessories to get?

Ta

Hah I'm not trying to sell you on it - just that if you are going the Chinese router direction, that is one of the better ones. It still has it's issues but you pay your money and you take your choices...

I am not using many of the stock components anymore, although there was nothing wrong with them. I changed the motion card mostly because I wanted to try out mach4 and also because I prefer Ethernet to USB... the stock card worked fine with Mach3 though and I didn't run into any obvious interference issues. I also changed the motors over to leadshine closed loop easyservos, the rest of the electronics I kept (PSU, VFD, Spindle) although I'd like to change to a toroidal at some point.

The biggest issue for me is that they (like seemingly all Chinese routers) don't ground the spindle. When I mentioned it they said grounding the spindle can cause interference issues with the USB card, but it's a point of safety so to my mind it needed to be done.

I changed to a 4 core shielded cable for the spindle, and re-wired the box into a star point earth... doing it that way I never had interference issues.

Accessories wise you just need to figure out what you need or want for work holding (vise, clamps, spoil board, vacuum board etc), and a good set of high precision ER collets in the sizes you want is a sound investment. Beyond that just a few cheap cutters to get started with as you will probably break some while getting to grips with it.

JOGARA
28-03-2017, 02:56 PM
Just one more question for everyone. I need to basically set up multiple stations on the CNC to do different operations.

What is the best way to get positional accuracy with the drill bit and workpiece?

I have seen John over at NYCCNC on his Tormach and HASS use a device that sits inside the collect to get XYZ positions as well as a little cube that gets the drill bit position.
Is that an option with Mach3 and this sort of CNC?

Was going to mill a 10mm plate to put vices on that can then be squared and made repeatable. But it is that first setup each time I want to make sure I am a 0.01mm accurate.

Thanks
Jack,

Zeeflyboy
28-03-2017, 03:01 PM
I just recently got one of these... I think it's pretty good for the money and certainly the only one I'm aware of in this sort of price range that uses contacts submerged in di-electric oil to avoid the oxidation problem.

http://www.kurokesu.com/shop/TPA2

A_Camera
28-03-2017, 04:17 PM
Just one more question for everyone. I need to basically set up multiple stations on the CNC to do different operations.

What is the best way to get positional accuracy with the drill bit and workpiece?

I have seen John over at NYCCNC on his Tormach and HASS use a device that sits inside the collect to get XYZ positions as well as a little cube that gets the drill bit position.
Is that an option with Mach3 and this sort of CNC?

Was going to mill a 10mm plate to put vices on that can then be squared and made repeatable. But it is that first setup each time I want to make sure I am a 0.01mm accurate.

Thanks
Jack,

I just googled "touch probe mach3" and I get 83,400 hits... :)

...along with pictures, and build instructions of everything, from simple touch plate to complex 3-D probes.

A simple conductive material works fine and will give you the accuracy, but remember that your accuracy depends on what you calibrating with as well. A touch probe is connected to one of the free inputs and you configure that input in Mach3 as "Probe". The thing is that you need a macro to get it working as well, but there are plenty of those available freely if you don't want to write one. Once you have the macro you have to attach that to a button and call it every time you intend to use it. It is pretty simple but maybe you need to spend some more time if you have never done it before.

I am using a simple PCB piece most of the time, it works just fine, but have plans on making something more advanced, but it isn't highest on my priority list.

Neale
28-03-2017, 06:52 PM
Repeatable accuracy to 0.01 mm is pretty demanding. I know that on my own machine I can get repeatability to +-0.003mm - one microstep, in other words. However, accuracy is another thing, and apart from anything else you are going to need a decent set of collets. As already said, you can do this kind of probing with a simple accurate block plus a straight plain shank in a collet, or spend hundreds or more. For ease of use, you might also want to look at an upgraded Mach3 screenset. Gerry"s 2010 screen set is widely recommended and includes probing functions - a Google search will find it.

JOGARA
30-03-2017, 11:09 PM
Is it worth paying £735 more for the X8?

X6
(X)355◊(Y)510◊(Z)85mm
57BYGH76-3A steppers


X8
(X)565◊(Y)770◊(Z)85mm
60BYGH86-4.2A steppers

Controller wise, the X6 uses Mach3. The X8 has an embedded system.
Does it still have usb input for Mach3?

The nearly double workspace is tempting...
Just don't fancy only using their hardware controller.

Thinking about it, £735 is a lot... Never mind

Zeeflyboy
31-03-2017, 12:07 PM
Bigger is good, if you need the space...

Bigger also however means less rigid for the same given design (as is the case here), so if that space isn't going to be used then it does have a negative aspect to consider.

I'm sure they could supply the X8 with the black control box if requested.

JOGARA
31-03-2017, 09:07 PM
Bigger is good, if you need the space...

Bigger also however means less rigid for the same given design (as is the case here), so if that space isn't going to be used then it does have a negative aspect to consider.

I'm sure they could supply the X8 with the black control box if requested.

Went with the X6.
Don't really need the size of the X8, yet :p

Ordered a full set of collects and some 1mm and 3mm bits.

Looking at vices, got 2 cheapo ones from Ali, they look okay but not proper strong.
Will see if they work okay or not. If not, can use them for lighter material at least.

JOGARA
12-04-2017, 12:43 AM
https://s22.postimg.org/4w9bjlt8h/IMG_20170411_163432475_HDR.jpg

Not fully set up yet. Wish the cables were longer so I could have the controller elsewhere.
Done some tests and it looks to work well.

Just got to get some distilled water and some bits for my air compressor and we should be good to go!


The whole rig feels super strong. Not like steel strong but nothing moves if you push against any faces.


The only thing that came broke was the infamous pump...
https://s22.postimg.org/x1w40cnq9/IMG_20170411_153302318.jpg

Zeeflyboy
12-04-2017, 07:09 PM
interesting, few design tweaks from mine - they are using a different kind of alu for the side arms (mine doesn't have that channel in the front edge) and looks to be using HIWIN, or HIWIN copy I suppose, carriages where mine was using something else.

Glad it all arrived safely, have fun!

Monster thread on CNCzone about that machine, has some good info in it.

JOGARA
12-04-2017, 07:49 PM
interesting, few design tweaks from mine - they are using a different kind of alu for the side arms (mine doesn't have that channel in the front edge) and looks to be using HIWIN, or HIWIN copy I suppose, carriages where mine was using something else.

Glad it all arrived safely, have fun!

Monster thread on CNCzone about that machine, has some good info in it.

Not read threw that thread yet. On my todo list :p



Cut some wood this evening to test it all out.
https://s27.postimg.org/anugwvtr7/IMG_20170412_172726776_HDR.jpg
(Obviously not cleaned it up or used a 2nd op to chamfer it. "Dog Shed" is what we call my workshop fyi, because the dogs live in it)

Worked really well. Went from Fusion 360 to this in no time.

Water got a bit warm. Using 15L of Halfords de-ionised battery topup water.
What temp should I be concerned at? A few places are saying 30-35C max. I have another 15L worth but I need some for my laser (obviously can go get more).

Thinking I might make a single 60L system with 2 pumps (one for each tool) and also a radiator with fans on to circulate the 60L tank with air cooled water.
Wont really be using both at the same time, but rather have one large tank of water than the two if it is okay to do so.


My Ecocast from Aliwarehouse also arrived. Had some concern about these guys from reading a few threads on here but this lot came in 2 days without a blemish on them.
https://s29.postimg.org/t3b9jj113/IMG_20170412_151628325_HDR.jpg

Zeeflyboy
13-04-2017, 12:07 AM
Downcut bits will avoid that rough edge that you can get on wood like that, might be worth picking some up. Work well on plastics too for the same reason.

I've always found aluminiumwarehouse ok.

I wouldn't over-think the cooling... there isn't that much heat to dissipate. Mine works fine with a small closed loop system (basically a single PC water cooling radiator and pump). Certainly no need to have a 60L system AND a radiator.

If you want to have a big combined cooling system for both your laser and your CNC then sure, why not. Seems to be over-complicating things though.

Boyan Silyavski
13-04-2017, 12:22 PM
Cheers on the machine!. Sth is not right with that wood cut. Try 16000- 17000rpm, bit diamenter depth of cut and 60IPM / 1500mm/min. That generally will work on any machine, even a flimsy one. 16000-17000 on soft wood, 17000-18000 on hard wood. Mdf and similar.

JOGARA
13-04-2017, 01:09 PM
Just got my new vice. Decided against the 2 cheap ones from China that cost £100. Went with a single one for £80 that is built for "light milling". Feels solid enough for what I need.

Holds my 150x100 aluminium perfectly and there is room to put bigger bits in there.
Will work on the mounting of it to the base though.

https://s13.postimg.org/azsa7h3jb/IMG_20170413_115926548.jpg

Only getting 1-2 hours a night to play with it all atm.
Got to finish a load of uni work :/

Also need to work on my speeds and feeds...

Zeeflyboy
13-04-2017, 01:11 PM
looks like it should be fine.

Just beware that your bed won't be level, so bolting the clamp directly to the bed won't give you a level surface either.

Ideally you need to bolt on a spoil board of some description and use the machine to skim it down. That will give you a flat surface to screw the clamp down into.

JOGARA
13-04-2017, 01:13 PM
looks like it should be fine.

Just beware that your bed won't be level, so bolting the clamp directly to the bed won't give you a level surface either.

Ideally you need to bolt on a spoil board of some description and use the machine to skim it down. That will give you a flat surface to screw the clamp down into.

Yea I heard about that being a problem and looks like it is a bit off.
Wood enough for a spoil board when working with aluminium?

Zeeflyboy
13-04-2017, 01:16 PM
MDF or similar would be ok as long as you aren't using much coolant. If you have any moisture resistant lying around that is a bit more stable in terms of dimensions and changes in humidity etc but far from essential.

You could also just bolt down a small piece where you intend to put your vice, rather than the whole bed. You would just have to re-skim it if you remove it but that's not a big deal for a small piece like that.

JOGARA
13-04-2017, 01:18 PM
MDF or similar would be ok as long as you aren't using much coolant. If you have any moisture resistant lying around that is a bit more stable in terms of dimensions and changes in humidity etc but far from essential.

You could also just bolt down a small piece where you intend to put your vice, rather than the whole bed. You would just have to re-skim it if you remove it but that's not a big deal for a small piece like that.

That's a good idea. I was planning on keeping the vice at the far left side and leaving the rest available to other projects that I need to do.

JOGARA
14-04-2017, 08:24 PM
So this is the case that I am milling out of EcoCast.

https://s29.postimg.org/eh3smgtjr/Capture.jpg

These are the end mills I have so far.
3.175mm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182410682575?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
2mm https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-3-175x2x15mm-Carbide-Single-Flute-Spiral-Bit-Sharp-Edge-High-Durability/1958278417.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.EJZ3Jx
1mm https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-3-175-1-0-6MM-Two-Flutes-Tungsten-End-Mill-Bits-Advanced-Chipboard-Carbide-Millinging/32263951641.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.EJZ3Jx

The case is like 75x60mm so I don't want to carve that all out with a 3.175.

Was thinking of getting something along the lines of a 6mm end mill to do the main hogging out.

What is the max these spindles can take?
I have collets up to 12mm.


Also, where is the best place to learn speeds and feeds? I have been testing these 3mm on a bit of this EcoCast and broke 2 end mills within minutes.
One I accidentally knocked into the work piece. The other because I did not know how to correctly set up the Z in Fusion CAM.

Clive S
14-04-2017, 09:01 PM
Have you thought about using foam etc. to practise on that way it will be more forgiving when you dive into it.

JOGARA
14-04-2017, 09:49 PM
Have you thought about using foam etc. to practise on that way it will be more forgiving when you dive into it.

No fun without danger of snapping a bit though :p

The wood carving was fine. Just need to learn about the speeds and feeds for when in Fusion.

Zeeflyboy
15-04-2017, 02:47 AM
6mm Single Flute is my general use bit when cutting Alu unless I need smaller for radius/slots etc. I have a 2 Flute 12mm I tend to use for hogging out plastics, that's the largest I have used so far, works great.

3 Flute roughing bits also pretty useful but I do find them a bit harder to get right without coolant, easy to start welding chips if you're a bit off the sweet spot. Single Flute is much more forgiving in my experience and well suited to the high speed spindle.

G-wizard can be a good place to start for feeds/speeds. Think it has a 30 day free trial.

JOGARA
16-04-2017, 08:25 PM
The only place I found that does larger single flute end mills int he UK is this eBay seller, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-0mm-Solid-Carbide-End-Mill-Single-Flute-Polished-/162448427104?hash=item25d2ae4860:g:agYAAOSw5cNYTbt V
(looking at it, they are not from the UK, yet they put their location as UK...)
Know of any more?

Quite pricey though and around the same shipping time as e-EMS on Ali.

Tempted to buy a dozen or so bits from Ali and pay for the faster shipping.


[edit]
Can find a load of 2 flute on there. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-FLUTE-CARBIDE-END-MILL-3-4-5-6-7-8-10-12-16-MM-SLOT-DRILL-ENGINEERING-TOOLS-/142003412553?var=&hash=item2110101e49:m:m3z_GCSjZDARtSupNGbvLLw

Ordered a 4 flue 6mm and 3mm off Amazon to experiment and compare with.
Just want to see the difference.

Zeeflyboy
16-04-2017, 10:30 PM
I've used these guys before (UK based) for their Belin Single Flute Downcut bits... not the cheapest but good quality.

http://www.cncroutershop.com/uk_en/

They have a good selection of Single Flute upcut bits too, including their own brand.

Other than that I tend to use AliExpress, most stuff comes within a couple of weeks at most even slow boating. I've used these guys before and quality was great.

http://s.aliexpress.com/QRnaE3ia

Roughing bits might be worth looking at too:

http://s.aliexpress.com/j6vqyuAN

Zeeflyboy
16-04-2017, 10:34 PM
Oh and another thought - if you are just doing a small levelled area for the clamp to bolt into, consider using something that will be a bit more resilient than mdf like tufnol kite board or even a skimmed Alu plate. You could thread directly into either and it'll be more moisture resistant.

Also re fusion - set up cloud library and do your own tool library. Much quicker and easier than searching through their generic one and you won't have as many mishaps with wrong feeds/speeds.

JOGARA
16-04-2017, 10:51 PM
I've used these guys before (UK based) for their Belin Single Flute Downcut bits... not the cheapest but good quality.

http://www.cncroutershop.com/uk_en/

They have a good selection of Single Flute upcut bits too, including their own brand.

Other than that I tend to use AliExpress, most stuff comes within a couple of weeks at most even slow boating. I've used these guys before and quality was great.

http://s.aliexpress.com/QRnaE3ia

Roughing bits might be worth looking at too:

http://s.aliexpress.com/j6vqyuAN


Oh and another thought - if you are just doing a small levelled area for the clamp to bolt into, consider using something that will be a bit more resilient than mdf like tufnol kite board or even a skimmed Alu plate. You could thread directly into either and it'll be more moisture resistant.

Also re fusion - set up cloud library and do your own tool library. Much quicker and easier than searching through their generic one and you won't have as many mishaps with wrong feeds/speeds.


I was just editing my thread with my findings on Ali as you replied. :p

These are the ones that I have spotted on Ali. The second store being about twice the price of the first store.
Saite_Cutter Store
3.175mm http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-single-Blade-Aluminium-cutting-single-flute-CNC-router-bits-3-175mm-1-8-CEL-17mm/32444972729.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.262.oh Qh0J
5mm http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-3pcs-lot-New-5mm-HQ-Carbide-CNC-Router-Bits-Single-Flute-Aluminum-Cutting-Tools/32796748540.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.268.oh Qh0J
6.35mm http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-2pcs-lot-New-6-35mm-AAA-Carbide-CNC-Router-Bits-Single-Flute-Aluminum-Cutting/32800434589.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.265.oh Qh0J

Shanghai CNC HOME Ltd. Co.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Retail-6-22MM-Import-Single-Flute-Aluminum-Milling-Cutter-for-Metal-End-Millinging-Tools-Carbide-in/123417_32213100380.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.1GtQ BZ


Looks like the Shanghai CNC HOME is the one to go for then if you are suggesting it.
Happy to pay more for the bits if they are better obviously.

Those roughing bits look good too. Seen NYC CNC use them and they just rip through the material.


Was thinking of getting a sheet of Polypropylene for the spoil board as it is pretty strong?
Ideally i'd go Aluminium but I wont be ordering again for a few weeks to make it worth shipping the dam thing.


I have already started putting the tools I have so far in the library.
Did not bother with their stock items as I pretty much guessed that the eBay and Ali stuff would not be on there.

Also got a trail of the G-Wizard and making sure I have the correct feeds and speeds set up for those bits.


I have been reading up on the flutes being up or down.
Isn't the up flute better suited for chip evacuation?
Going to be mostly milling out 15mm deep stock so pulling up the chips rather than having them go down would be better over the down cut bits?

Its not like my vice can't handle it, that thing is a little beast.
(Obviously not as good as the ones you get on the industrial machines, but you know what I mean....)


Again thanks for the help.
Really do appreciate it.

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 08:49 AM
Price isn't necessarily an indication of better quality, if the reviews are decent and the parts look good then have a go - I just linked to the store that I have personally ordered from in the past.

For Alu, yes upcut is definitely what you want as chip evacuation is vital. Ideally one would also be using compressed air (with added bonus points for mist coolant) with a nozzle aimed to blast any chips out of the way.

I initially bought Downcut for some closed cell foam I was machining for custom cases/tool trays. They are mostly of use in softer materials where the top edge can be a bit rough with an upcut bit. Compressed air or a vac shoe can help with chip evacuation there.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 11:29 AM
I bought one of those cheap misters off eBay for like £7. Not installed it yet as I need to tap a hole for it.
Not looked into what coolant to get for it yet though.

I see what you mean about the down cut now. Like on that wood I tested on, would have been better having a down cut as it does not pull the fibres up.


https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/economy-3-flute-roughing-carbide-end-mills-for-aluminium/3-flute-carbide-roughing-end-mill-for-aluminium-6mm-diameter.html
Probably best bet in terms of roughing end mills to get delivered this week?

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 01:45 PM
Yeah exactly, gives a very sharp clean top edge on plastics like acetal etc too. Just something else to consider playing with :)

Shop apt are very good, I've used them plenty in the past.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 09:01 PM
Can't for the life of me work out what this is called.

Fusion wants to helical down all the way through this 15mm and then circle around.
https://s15.postimg.org/69lxy1wh7/Capture.jpg

Rather it go down 1-2mm to cut then step down.

If not, is this the correct way to do deep stuff?



Also, new bit arrived to day.
https://s30.postimg.org/d4n7fy7bl/IMG_20170417_201503867_HDR.jpg
Not bad? Ignore the stuff to the left of it :p

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 09:27 PM
Which bits are those?

Side finish is a bit poor, looks like a lot of chatter. Chips are also a bit small and fluffy suggesting too slow a feed rate. What bits and what feeds/speeds?

This is the sort of wall finish you should be able to get out of this machine with a bit of practise

http://i.imgur.com/XAAhxhX.jpg


You can set max depth under multiple passes in fusion, even on the adaptive stuff.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 09:37 PM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B018X9TDMK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Think your right about feed rate. Upped it to 0.01 per tooth.
Was on 0.004




You can set max depth under multiple passes in fusion, even on the adaptive stuff.

That's it. Found it now.


[edit]
Still got chatter.

[edit2]
Upped my feed rate in Mach3 to 200%. Improved a bit.
Here are the F&S that I am going to try now.
https://s2.postimg.org/9w70itue1/Capture.png
Previously it was 0.01 per tooth.

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 10:10 PM
that's quite long for a 1/8 bit... you'll need to be fairly gentle with DoC to avoid bending the tool. Insert the tool so that you have minimum necessary exposed shank to help minimise flex.

Then try something more like 18k rpm, feed down to 600ish and I wouldn't go much beyond 0.5-1mm DoC at first with a tool that long/thin. You could try a bit deeper with adaptive type strategies (although perhaps limit the step over it allows to reduce loading on the tool.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 10:12 PM
Let it rip at full speed.
https://s2.postimg.org/6qozkh0uh/IMG_20170417_210703110_HDR.jpg

Had it weld towards the end causing a few problems. Air pressure was low because it has gone 9PM.
Doesn't look like it stuck to the bit that much. I was able to pick it off with my nail.



Ill try it now at 0.5mm DoC at those rates.
Was at 1mm (went off the rule of it being half the width?).

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 10:15 PM
Looks a bit better, see my edit just above your last post for some further thoughts.

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 10:33 PM
Saw it and will be testing it out tomorrow!


Also, just found a 2 flute 6mm...
Must have come with the machine xD

Might give that ago tomorrow too..


Mobile footage of the last cut.

https://youtu.be/P_gak9nr59A

Zeeflyboy
17-04-2017, 10:35 PM
looks pretty good in the video

I found the cutters that came with the machine fairly crap btw

JOGARA
17-04-2017, 11:09 PM
looks pretty good in the video

I found the cutters that came with the machine fairly crap btw


Thus why I did not bother with them :p
Ordering a few off shop-apt tonight. Hopefully they will come Wednesday.
Will still try the 6mm they gave us. Worth it.

The only problem with the video was the cooling, which I expected because the compressor was low.

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 12:49 PM
This is the latest result.
Forgot to mention that I am not doing a finishing pass yet.


https://s15.postimg.org/9qwor50ij/IMG_20170418_103302537_HDR.jpg

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 02:01 PM
Cut my product's case rear end.

Not perfect. Some work to do on the CAM but in terms of output it is great.

https://s28.postimg.org/urwqp7xpp/IMG_20170418_123314987_HDR.jpg

Really do need a chamfer bit...

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 05:13 PM
So I started playing with the 6mm that was included. Worked well at first.
Was getting some nice test cuts with it so decided to give it ago milling out my case.

https://s2.postimg.org/fhhof5htl/IMG_0871.jpg

Working well for a good 45 mins. I had the feed rate at 200% as my stock settings was making quite a fine chip.
Having it at 200% made a much nicer chip that flew straight off.

It got to about 2/3s the way down the 15mm bit of aluminium and the sound frequency changed.
Went to check it out and I went to pause it but suddenly the bit started to get hot so the chips welded onto the bit.

Doh

Obviously can't go that fast when the ali has warmed up and you are doing 2mm cuts.

Was only air cooling though. I found water kept clogging up the chips and well I don't have any proper coolant system or liquid...

https://s30.postimg.org/nsdrrqb1t/Capture.jpg

njhussey
18-04-2017, 05:20 PM
WD40 is good, a squirt every now and then or buy a mist system on ebay (£10 ish) and you'll be good to go...

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 05:21 PM
If you are getting fine chips or dust, rather than upping your feed consider dropping your rpm to keep the material removal rate at a reasonable level... it will help control the heat production and reduce issues with tool deflection/chatter when compared to ramping up the feed rate. You need quite a rigid machine to get away with the high feed rates associated with faster rpm.

Bear in mind of course that these spindles don't really like much below 12k rpm for sustained periods. Coolant allows you to sustain a higher removal rate than dry cutting of course, but it isn't absolutely vital for good results it just makes dialing in those feeds/speeds a bit more critical. Chips do look better in that pic above.

This is where single flute give an advantage as you are effectively running at half the rpm vs a comparable 2 flute bit.

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 05:23 PM
WD40 is good, a squirt every now and then or buy a mist system on ebay (£10 ish) and you'll be good to go...

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk


I actually found some draper cutting oil the other day that works better than wd40 imo (doesn't smell as bad when it evaporates off a hot tool either!) https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001U7SOKU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's a good temporary solution to no coolant I reckon!

Mist system is the better long term solution though, you already have the compressor so it's not difficult to set one up from there.

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 06:42 PM
I didn't think to turn the rpm down... Make sense :p

This is what i got in terms of mister.
https://s22.postimg.org/dww2i39b5/IMG_20170418_173737640_HDR.jpg

Though it it either just air or a fire hose...


Got the three flute with the bobbled edges coming tomorrow.
So will get to try that out with the lower rpm on the two flute.
No single flutes for at least two weeks :/

Wonder if the Banggood ones are worth trying. Might have some in their EU warehouse.

Zeeflyboy
18-04-2017, 06:46 PM
A mister unit will usually have two feeds going into it, an air line and a coolant line, and will have needle valves on both to vary the mix. They are generally designed to work on venturi but you are better off providing a pressurised coolant flow to them - you'll get bigger droplets rather than a pervasive fog.

I see yours looks to have a hose in the back for coolant but I see no second valve for controlling the flow, only a single valve which I assume is controlling the air flow.

this is the type I'm using http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mist-Coolant-Lubrication-Spray-System-for-CNC-Lathe-Milling-Drill-Grind-Machine-/152064811257?hash=item2367c4e0f9:g:sX8AAOSwUuFWzUw K

JOGARA
18-04-2017, 06:50 PM
This one had a shitty one on the air feed.
Took it off as i have variable regulator on the compressor.

Going to look on eBay for a water tank with pressure feed inlet.

Boyan Silyavski
18-04-2017, 09:07 PM
Here is an overview of my fog-less system and in video description are mentioned all major details so you can DIY one. A properly made one, i mean. Hope that helps you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVu4mCFCvmA

JOGARA
20-04-2017, 05:16 AM
Any recommendations on bits for fillets?
Like a round over tool for routers.

Also looking for alternatives to something like the Haimer Universal 3D Sensor.

Was looking at Zeeflyboy's link to the TPA2 but need something soonish and cheaper :p

JOGARA
21-04-2017, 02:15 PM
Does this look about right for this 3 flute roughing bit?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/economy-3-flute-roughing-carbide-end-mills-for-aluminium/3-flute-carbide-roughing-end-mill-for-aluminium-6mm-diameter.html

https://s15.postimg.org/9220ieq63/Capture.png

I have a feeling that 3000mm/s is too much. Gwizard is saying 1000mm/s.

Clive S
21-04-2017, 02:44 PM
1000/S ? Do you mean 1000mm/min

JOGARA
21-04-2017, 02:52 PM
Doh

Of course :p


Also, not 100% on the 1mm and 2mm. Wanted the single flutes but having to wait. Might as well try these.

JOGARA
24-04-2017, 12:10 PM
Really struggling with the feeds and speeds for this 3 flute roughing bit.

Works fine for a few seconds then starts to chatter.

Guessing it is also a cooling problem?
Got the mister blowing a lot of air on it, also tried with a bit of water but same problem.

Zeeflyboy
25-04-2017, 01:11 PM
I have gummed up the roughing bits on more than one occasion when milling ecocast plate... to the extent that I actually had to dissolve the aluminium to get it off the cutters. What feeds/speeds and DoC/step over have you been trying?

Like I said they are definitely far more sensitive to incorrect speeds and feeds than single or 2 flute, proper coolant/lubrication would widen your envelope significantly.

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 05:49 PM
I have gummed up the roughing bits on more than one occasion when milling ecocast plate... to the extent that I actually had to dissolve the aluminium to get it off the cutters. What feeds/speeds and DoC/step over have you been trying?

Like I said they are definitely far more sensitive to incorrect speeds and feeds than single or 2 flute, proper coolant/lubrication would widen your envelope significantly.

Tried 500 and 1000 mm/m at their recommendation of 13000 RPM.
Only tried 2mm DoC.
Not sure what to try next.

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 07:35 PM
removed......

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 08:05 PM
So it looks like heavy mist/flood works really well.

The finish quality is really good too.


Having some odd problem where the Gcode is saying helical down, but Mach3 isn't doing it. It is still running the rest of the code as it should be but ignores Z.

Zeeflyboy
25-04-2017, 09:19 PM
It's only just started doing it?

Does the axis travel in mach (i.e. is the Z travelling in the mach "DRO" for the Z axis?). Sure you haven't accidentally picked the wrong post processor?

Does the simulation in fusion work as expected? Quite possible you accidentally set the depth to a top contour if not.

JOGARA
25-04-2017, 09:44 PM
It worked fine when I did the simple 2D plate of 5mm.
So physically I know the spindle can go down further.


Does the axis travel in mach (i.e. is the Z travelling in the mach "DRO" for the Z axis?).
No idea what that is. Will look into it.

Using the stock Mach3 from Fusion.
https://s30.postimg.org/ebhwfzs0x/Capture.jpg

Simulator works fine. Even goes down the -2mm I set off the bottom of the stock.
https://s8.postimg.org/sshby9h2t/Capture.jpg

The Gcode says the Z to go further,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeVdz5GYEEU&feature=youtu.be

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 07:26 AM
you need more like 22000rpm and 3000mm/min with 3 flute roughing bit at 3mm depth of cut. heavily cooled by air at least. But that are speeds and feeds for very rigid machine or a mill

0.07mm feed per tooth on aluminum? i dont think so, especially on your machine. Lower the depth of cut and look to eliminate any chatter. Or lower feed per tooth to 0.3 lowering your feed speed half.

Just make a video to hear whats going on and we will tell you whats wrong...

JOGARA
26-04-2017, 12:25 PM
you need more like 22000rpm and 3000mm/min with 3 flute roughing bit at 3mm depth of cut. heavily cooled by air at least. But that are speeds and feeds for very rigid machine or a mill

0.07mm feed per tooth on aluminum? i dont think so, especially on your machine. Lower the depth of cut and look to eliminate any chatter. Or lower feed per tooth to 0.3 lowering your feed speed half.

Just make a video to hear whats going on and we will tell you whats wrong...


This is what I am currently using under heavy mist and it works quite well.
2mm DoC

https://s27.postimg.org/dbm9df4zn/Capture.jpg


This is the surface finish.

https://s16.postimg.org/vfjt4uk11/IMG_20170425_201125061_HDR.jpg

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 05:58 PM
Seems you have it under control now. Thats the surface finish after the roughing, right?

JOGARA
26-04-2017, 06:03 PM
Seems you have it under control now. Thats the surface finish after the roughing, right?

Still having the Z axis problem.

Yes that is surface finish, you can feel those horizontal lines rubbing up and down with your finger.
Will be fine for external finish once I sand it down with a fine grit.

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 06:08 PM
For me Mach3 when bugged always had only one cure possible. Reinstall all clean and start from there. You will not believe the number of times that Mach3 bugged during the last 4 years and cure was the same. Thanks god now i dont have to use it.

JOGARA
26-04-2017, 06:10 PM
For me Mach3 when bugged always had only one cure possible. Reinstall all clean and start from there. You will not believe the number of times that Mach3 bugged during the last 4 years and cure was the same. Thanks god now i dont have to use it.

If I do that I lose my XY position though :p
It is only a test bit but rather not start again.

What are you using now?

Boyan Silyavski
26-04-2017, 06:39 PM
DDCSV1. It started as a joke, i just had returned the Pokeys57cnc and was wondering what better controller to buy. I have written a lot in the forum about said controller use search function in forum. So at the end it worked so well i did not feel the need to buy the more expensive offline controller i had in mind.
But back to Mach3? God No. Only for special purpose machine where/if i can not avoid it in any other way.

I have basically 0 min downtime last half year in workshop and thousands of things done. I had at least 1 week downtime /if not more/ the previous half year . And the last 5 years if we put together the time i have lost installing windows, Mach3, reconfiguring, boards, plugins, figuring how to make things work...I have lost a couple of months with Mach3, plugins and boards.

JOGARA
27-04-2017, 04:38 PM
https://img.memesuper.com/4f9cf15fc87252690cc40d82e5bb5cf9_homer-simpsons-reaction-homer-doh-meme_788-500.jpeg

So because I lowered my stickout with the new roughing bit and pretty much all the others, I forgot to lower my spindel to compensate.

Which meant it was hitting the Z limit thus not going lower than 10mm.

JOGARA
27-04-2017, 09:39 PM
Need to work on this 2mm bit.
I already use the rouging bit to hog out most of the material. Just need more square holes.

https://s3.postimg.org/45z85unrn/IMG_20170427_193438424_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/qhx0z8mvj/)


Here it is from the other side.

https://s3.postimg.org/ym553z9ar/IMG_20170427_195639280_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/zbnxgc9u7/)

Clive S
27-04-2017, 10:58 PM
Well you can't make a square hole with a round bit, so if you need it more square use a smaller bit.:encouragement:

Neale
27-04-2017, 11:34 PM
Well you can't make a square hole with a round bit, so if you need it more square use a smaller bit.:encouragement:

...or overcut into the corners and have a bezel to hide it!

JOGARA
28-04-2017, 11:21 AM
Well you can't make a square hole with a round bit, so if you need it more square use a smaller bit.:encouragement:

That is why I step down to a 2mm bit.
All the holes are different in that I tried different things with them.

The middle one worked the best as the buttons are not fully square themselves.

Boyan Silyavski
28-04-2017, 11:59 AM
Maybe its wiser and easier to drill the corners first. Then pocket with the bigger bit.

JOGARA
30-04-2017, 02:33 PM
Not perfect but I think I have got it down pretty well.

I don't have a 3D probe yet so whenever I reset the machine I am obvious out somewhat.
The last operation of cutting out the case was well out for some reason..

https://s14.postimg.org/ba2tw7u5t/IMG_20170430_132245327.jpg
https://s14.postimg.org/7rqtztt9t/IMG_20170430_132238414_HDR.jpg


I am working now on setting up a spoil board underneath the stock to then super glue my stock to.
This means I am not cutting out something floating in mid air.

Just another bit of aluminum stock will do that I can then glue my work stock onto with super glue?

JOGARA
30-04-2017, 10:25 PM
Well superglue worked really well.
Surprised how quickly the two bits stuck together as soon as I got the air out of the gap.
Much better than cutting in the air.

https://s7.postimg.org/afe5usri3/IMG_20170430_195947468.jpg
https://s7.postimg.org/z7ds218or/IMG_20170430_201659530.jpg



Main problem atm is the water.
Thinking of building a dedicated table for the machine which is basically a drip tray that I can then have doors on each side and all the stuff bellow like the controller, spindle cooling res, cooling water etc.
Means I can flood cool too. Which will be quieter than using the air compressor.

Thoughts?

Boyan Silyavski
02-05-2017, 09:18 AM
We are cutting steel on mills with mist so not to use coolant and you are going backwards. Cooling with liquid is nice for a production setup but for home? The less, the better. Mist is better for home. Do it properly as i have made it and there will be no problem. With one nozzle you can cool up to 25mm bits.

JOGARA
03-05-2017, 12:51 PM
Thinking about it you are right.

Going to make a bed for the CNC that can hold the water that comes off the mist.
I actually had the bottle about a meter above the cnc the other day and just the water alone worked fine by the looks of it.
No air just gravity fed water.



Anyone tried these?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutters-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutter-for-general-use-30mm-radius-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html

There are 2 Flute ones but only in the US from the looks of it.
I need to put a nice round edge on my product housing and these look to be the only thing available.

JOGARA
03-05-2017, 12:53 PM
Thinking about it you are right.

Going to make a bed for the CNC that can hold the water that comes off the mist.
I actually had the bottle about a meter above the cnc the other day and just the water alone worked fine by the looks of it.
No air just gravity fed water.



Anyone tried these?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutters-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutter-for-general-use-30mm-radius-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html

There are 2 Flute ones but only in the US from the looks of it.
I need to put a nice round edge on my product housing and these look to be the only thing available.

Boyan Silyavski
04-05-2017, 04:49 PM
Thinking about it you are right.

Going to make a bed for the CNC that can hold the water that comes off the mist.
I actually had the bottle about a meter above the cnc the other day and just the water alone worked fine by the looks of it.
No air just gravity fed water.



Anyone tried these?
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutters-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutter-for-general-use-30mm-radius-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html

There are 2 Flute ones but only in the US from the looks of it.
I need to put a nice round edge on my product housing and these look to be the only thing available.

I have never tried that ones but seem right. You could always use 90 degree V cutter, trim the corners and slightly sand then afterwards. Just pass them with fine sand paper.

JOGARA
04-05-2017, 04:54 PM
Just order it with a ball nose too.
Might as well try it, might be perfect.


Still trying to work out how I am going to reduce my water problem.
Going to be moving house in about 5-6 months so I am thinking of making a dedicated table for the rig.

One which has some decent casters on it so I can wheel it around and then some retractable feet that had then go down to make it solid.


The main thing for me is adding a box around it with window so the noise is reduced and so is the mess.
I have aluminum everywhere in my workshop atm so building it into a box where all the mess drops into a pan under the cnc is sort of what I am thinking of doing.

Means I can also use as much mist coolant as I need and it will just drip into the pan and not onto my workdesk.



Over complicating things or pretty solid idea?
Main thing for me is reducing mess externally of the machine and not having water everywhere..

Zeeflyboy
08-05-2017, 12:06 PM
I have made a tray that sits on the bed and is water tight - works for trapping coolant (I put a drain port in the front too) and also for cutting composites underwater. It also traps I would say 70-80% of alu chips.

Maybe a similar thing might work for you.

http://i.imgur.com/XSJ4CPv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/YUSriYf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wisZVso.jpg

JOGARA
08-05-2017, 12:45 PM
That looks perfect for what I need thanks.

I am guessing it is a bit of Acetal sheet for the base?

Zeeflyboy
08-05-2017, 08:04 PM
Acetal is a good choice, just want something with low water absorption and high dimensional stability.

When I make another for the new machine I intend to use SRBP.

I just used acrylic for the sides and then machined the bed area down, fixed the eco cast plate in place and then ran the drill cycle for the screws that hold it down and the hole pattern I required for work holding.

JOGARA
08-05-2017, 08:30 PM
My only concern atm is that I use a vice to hold my work.
In my operation I need to flip the piece to run a 2nd op on the other side.

At the moment I don't have any way to calibrate the vice other than using the CNC's edge as a guide (which works really well at the size of stuff I am doing.


I am guessing my only option is to mill down to make it flat, but leave a lip to push my vice against to get it level?

Was going to get a Haimer Universal 3D Sensor at some stage but it is too long I think for this X6.

Zeeflyboy
08-05-2017, 08:47 PM
Can drill holes for DIN dowel pins for alignment. If your vice doesn't have any alignment holes then you can just put two in on one side and butt the vice up against it. Obviously it won't be perfect unless the vice has a milled edge but it's at least as accurate as your current method of aligning to the edge of the CNC

JOGARA
08-05-2017, 10:26 PM
Can drill holes for DIN dowel pins for alignment. If your vice doesn't have any alignment holes then you can just put two in on one side and butt the vice up against it. Obviously it won't be perfect unless the vice has a milled edge but it's at least as accurate as your current method of aligning to the edge of the CNC

It has space under it that will allow me to have the pins protrude to the vice's solid side and I can get it level that way.

Should only cost about £50 all in which sounds about right.

JOGARA
09-05-2017, 03:03 PM
So it came to £60.

Not going the full 700mm, only 500mm so I have some room at the back to use for things not needing the water bed.
With 50-100mm hang over that means half of the table is water bed, half stock where I can put a wood spoil board.


Guessing that 2 Flute bit that came with the unit will be enough to cut the few guide pin holes and screw holes?

JOGARA
14-05-2017, 07:37 PM
Desperately need a way to set offsets on X and Y.

Looked at the Haimer stuff again but even their smallest one is over 100mm long.
The X6 has 85mm of travel in Z so really pushing it I think if I was to get one of those.

Any other options out there?
That TPA2 is still not in stock.

Zeeflyboy
20-05-2017, 09:39 PM
if machining metals then all you really need is a rod of known diameter (e.g. 6mm), then you can use probing to find the edges just like the Z-height probe does.

The downside is that it only works with conductive materials, that's one area where a proper touch probe has an advantage.

JOGARA
30-05-2017, 03:12 PM
I'll try that method and see how well it goes.
Ta

Any recommendations on what I can put in my water cooling to prevent rust?
Not been able to work for 2 weeks and the outlet pipe is going rusty gold.

Zeeflyboy
30-05-2017, 05:30 PM
you just got an open loop?

some antifreeze would probably do the job, and keep the tub covered and out of reach of any pets/children

JOGARA
30-05-2017, 05:48 PM
you just got an open loop?

some antifreeze would probably do the job, and keep the tub covered and out of reach of any pets/children

Yes open loop into a tub.
Does it have to be just antifreeze or is screenwash okay?

Zeeflyboy
30-05-2017, 05:49 PM
don't think screenwash has any anti-corrosion inhibitors which is really what you are after.

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/p/-/-/-/-/?523770511&0&cc5_866&gclid=CK_Z2Pb7l9QCFUg6GwodLDEB_A

something like that would do

JOGARA
30-05-2017, 11:35 PM
don't think screenwash has any anti-corrosion inhibitors which is really what you are after.

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/p/-/-/-/-/?523770511&0&cc5_866&gclid=CK_Z2Pb7l9QCFUg6GwodLDEB_A

something like that would do

Ahhh okay.
Ill go see what they have at Halfords.

Needs to have some colour in it as I did not realise a few weeks ago that my pump was off >.<
Got a bit hot...

JOGARA
31-05-2017, 02:36 PM
Wondering if I could get some feedback on this cabinet design.

Would love to make it out of Aluminum profile but that is like £300-400 for a full cabinet.
So making it out of wood and painting it with water resistant something...
Main reason why I am going for a full tower is that I need the machine enclosed to lower the mess it creates.
That and it takes up a load of desk space that could be better used if the CNC was in a vertical form.

I have added a catch pan draw that will allow me to blow/brush off chips from the machine and parts and they can all land there to collect.
It will be water tight tough I might add a slop to it with a drain to allow the coolant to drain out as it builds up, allowing me to reuse some of it once filtered.

Windows/doors to the right are the main access to change things on the machine like stock, vice etc as they both open out.
The front window/door is to access the machine mostly while running. Which is why I am considering making it slide up so it is easy to get to the part being worked on.
The left doors are just for servicing.
The back is fully boarded with 12mm wood to add strength to the build.

Underneath is enough room for control box, PC tower, spindle cooling tank, fresh coolant and coolant collection.


The two beams going from left to right are for the CNC machine to sit on. They will allow for the waste and coolant to drip down below the machine into the catch pan.
It also pulls out to allow one to remove waste.



https://s15.postimg.org/ar0l05opn/CNC_Machine_housing_v11a.png (https://postimg.org/image/654grt36f/)

https://s15.postimg.org/hg74g6a1n/CNC_Machine_housing_v11b.png (https://postimg.org/image/ojezvsfh3/)

https://s15.postimg.org/lbaiiqt7f/CNC_Machine_housing_v11c.png (https://postimg.org/image/ouwg8jvx3/)

https://s15.postimg.org/78ol3rntn/CNC_Machine_housing_v11_1.png (https://postimg.org/image/41u1k53dj/)

JOGARA
03-08-2017, 01:50 AM
Been a busy few months.

Ordering a lot of stock aluminum for the product housing.

https://s3.postimg.org/nvx468m8v/IMG_20170802_123414149_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/nvx468m8v/)


The unlevel bed started to show up in the finish if the housing so a bit of 8mm on the bed and faced it off about 1mm down. Oddly not that much difference in it so thinking the vice might be causing the unlevel finish. Might make some soft jaws that custom fit the housing anyway so that will make it level.

https://s3.postimg.org/gwj26vman/IMG_20170802_141024393_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/gwj26vman/)


Also as I was ordering a load of circuit boards I whipped up this little ring light to fit the 80mm spindle.
These photos are just testing it but I am going to try and mount it using neodymium magnets.
I know the motor is using magnets so they might not work too well but there looks to be a decent amount of steel there so should be okay.
Take 12v at around 150mAh. Not the brightest in the world but I designed them to help improve lighting on the workpiece not light the whole thing.

https://s3.postimg.org/4gmcd4syn/IMG_20170802_225856181_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4gmcd4syn/)

https://s3.postimg.org/u1ykczg67/IMG_20170802_225907447_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/u1ykczg67/)

https://s3.postimg.org/7yyc9itun/IMG_20170802_225934673_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/7yyc9itun/)


I also made my cabinet.
Didn't make a whole stand like I designed a month ago. Don't really have the space for it so made a table top cabinet.

The base is actually from a Ikea bookcase. No idea where it came from. Think it was a shelf we ordered but was the wrong size, but it was perfect for this use...
The sides are just that regular chipboard? from B&Q. Everything painted with 3-4 coats of gloss. All joints filled with silicone.

The base is slanted to allow water (coolant) to run down into a small rain gutter.
2 doors on the front using 5mm acrylic.
No roof yet, will make one eventually as the noise comes from there and chips when blowing fly out of it xD


https://s1.postimg.org/209hi9v9or/IMG_20170722_160041422.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/209hi9v9or/)

https://s1.postimg.org/61y8au5vbf/IMG_20170722_160047321.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/61y8au5vbf/)

https://s1.postimg.org/20z0am8a8b/IMG_20170722_160114377.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/20z0am8a8b/)

JOGARA
10-08-2017, 05:17 PM
https://s28.postimg.org/j7tbdghkd/IMG_20170809_175644893_HDR.jpg

Magnets look to work. IDK about vibrations but never really had any.

I have a few boards left over (12) if anyone wants some.
£1 plus postage I think is fair.

Zeeflyboy
10-08-2017, 10:11 PM
looking very nice.

I did a similar thing with a waterproof ring of LEDs I just bought off ebay, can't say I ever ended up using it much though.

JOGARA
14-09-2017, 06:11 PM
So I attempted to make my own soft jaws. The CAD was not easy but managed in the end.
Wanted them so I could put my stock aluminum in and machine it all the way to finished product. This only required 2-3 setups.

Decided on machine half the stock off and that left me with 2 cases for my electronics, I can then shove that on the soft jaws to mill out.
Using a 6mm hole to get X and Y and eye balling Z (Z being really easy to do).
Either something is out in my measurements or the 6mm hole method just isn't accurate enough.
Obviously on this machine it is not that accurate but to be nearly 0.3-0.5mm out in X and Y it must be my error.
I am also just using a standard vise, might not help though it has been pretty solid so far. I can only guess my main issue here is going to be repeatability.

Really need a 3D probe I think to help here.


What I am going to do is go back to my old method of super gluing my stock on a bit of 5mm which then allows me to mill out everything.
I really want to be able to step this up to a production level though as I have quite a few to make, just being able to run step one 20 times and then step two 20 times would be great. No changing tools every 10-30 mins. Just swap out the part for the next operation.
That and the glue is a pain to clean up and sometimes does not stick fully resulting in the part flying.


https://s26.postimg.org/wl7tr7ii1/IMG_20170913_173300972_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/9wimrn145/)

https://s26.postimg.org/4mi9e3695/IMG_20170913_194905966_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/sq912dopx/)

https://s26.postimg.org/6gv3vtt9l/IMG_20170913_194913160_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/3zjcok9d1/)

https://s26.postimg.org/40tahzb6x/IMG_20170913_194939442.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/hhq90ulid/)

https://s26.postimg.org/wnwarsbjd/IMG_20170913_195415066_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/th1r85r39/)

https://s26.postimg.org/715jkrx49/IMG_20170914_163910005.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/nc5nh39lx/)

https://s26.postimg.org/mlcxbb78p/IMG_20170914_165746605_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/fi51vp1t1/)

JOGARA
14-09-2017, 06:26 PM
I think vacuum fixture is the answer...

Desertboy
14-09-2017, 06:27 PM
Looking good there, a fascinating thread glad to see you're obviously getting on well with your machine ;)

Sorry to hear about your sizing issue but looking at it it seems your so very close, I would start to think about how you could make the piece without having to flip it if possible.

I'd have a word with Chaz about 3d probe's he knows his stuff but I wouldn't assume that having one is the answer to all your problems.

Zeeflyboy
14-09-2017, 07:31 PM
Can't see the all the way round the parts on the photos but is it wider the whole way round (ie suggesting G-code isn't setup up right with cutter size or stock to leave) or does it flip from overhang to underhang suggesting the zero has moved?

3D probe is great, but not cheap and isn't perfect - If I set mine up without dialing it in with an indicator every time then the runout can normally be expected to be around 0.03mm... can reliably dial it into around 0.005mm within a few minutes of tweaking but if you don't do that every time then you are already starting with a centre error of 0.03mm and I find the repeatability to be around 0.005-0.01mm so you're probably anything up to 0.04mm off centre.

If you spend the time to dial it in each time (which adds perhaps up to 10 minutes to each time you need to find centre or edge of something) then you could reasonably expect to be within 0.01mm or so.

It does come with constraints though - the probe body and length of the probe may preclude you from being able to probe stuff in a vice if it stands too tall... worth checking if that would be an issue with your intended probe. Some are massively long as they are really intended for mills.

They can also get unreliable over time due to oxidation of the contacts.

I do love my probe, but you can achieve a lot of what it does for much less with a short length of tool steel and an alligator clip when using conductive materials (or even just a conductive fence used for part location).

saw a very cool tip regarding super glue for holding down small parts the other day btw since you mention the faff:

lay down a strip of masking tape (I'd probably use decently wide stuff) on the bed and use a blade/whatever to squeegee it down flat. Do the same on the stock you want to fix down and leave a few cm sticking out beyond the sides so that it's easy to line up with the tape on the bed. Good idea to have some sort of fence you can line up with to ensure you're aligned to your X and Y if that's going to be critical for the amount of spare stock you have.

You then run a bead of superglue along the tape on the part, spray some activator on the tape on the bed and then press the part down firmly.

What you end up with is effectively double sided tape but with a firmer hold (carpet tape etc tends to have some elastic give in it) and the ease of removal of masking tape. Having used double sided tape in the past it can be a pig to pull up off the bed and can leave a lot of residue on the part, superglue on it's own is good but again can be a pain to clean up afterwards.

I think you are better off getting a jig sorted for this particular job, but something to try on low volume/one offs in the future. Given your semi-prodiuction like goals on this part it might be worth considering making an actual fixture plate to do several at a time rather than just soft jaws in a vice.

JOGARA
14-09-2017, 10:06 PM
The Y was out about 0.5mm and the X was out about 0.2mm.
I think that is okay on the inside but on the outside obviously that is too much.

Thinking about probing off the stock instead and then I should be perfect when I flip and obviously proble off the same corner when flipped.
That should result in a perfect (excluding the machine's accuracy, which they say is "0.05mm").

I can't find any none hand made ones that would fit. Like you say they are for mills. Shame because the Haimer ones are good price and easily available here. If only there was another 3-4cm of Z travel and I could use it, though 20mm bore xD
Which one did you end up with Zeeflyboy? I remembered you linked one but it was out of stock for a long time.


I've seen a few people use tape. Sometimes using standard double sided 3M and having great results. I might go buy some tomorrow actually and try it.

Zeeflyboy
14-09-2017, 10:21 PM
Normal double sided carpet tape works but you can actually hear the difference compared to a proper clamped mounting in the amount of vibration it allows. You can also see chips "dancing" on the surface which shows the part is vibrating... I wouldn't recommend it for where tight tolerances or good finish is required - much better to get a good fixture plate sorted out.

I use the TPA-2 here (in stock now, though with a smaller stylus I think which may actually be better for our purposes) http://www.kurokesu.com/shop/TPA2

As mentioned though, in this particular scenario it won't do much you couldn't do with a tool steel rod and a micrometer. If you don't already own one you also need to feature in the cost of a decent dial indicator to allow you to get the ball centred.

For your particular scenario here I may even be tempted to machine a small vacuum fixture plate which will hold the parts in alignment and hold down the part whilst allowing you to machine the exterior in a single operation. I think you will never be happy with finish unless you allow it to machine the full exterior depth in a single op. Even a tiny misalignment will show in the finish.

JOGARA
14-09-2017, 10:31 PM
Think I'll try that probe and soft jaws. Though I'll machine my stock on a sacrificial so my outer is perfect. I can then probe and machine my internals.

The problem with vac plate is that I mill through my part so will end up losing vacuum. Only way around that is 2nd op so might as well just mill out like I already am in 2 stages.

Zeeflyboy
14-09-2017, 10:39 PM
Think I'll try that probe and soft jaws. Though I'll machine my stock on a sacrificial so my outer is perfect. I can then probe and machine my internals.

The problem with vac plate is that I mill through my part so will end up losing vacuum. Only way around that is 2nd op so might as well just mill out like I already am in 2 stages.

Well with a custom vac fixture plate you could account for where the part will be cut through I'm sure.

Something I sometimes do for a tricky to hold down part is leave 0.3 - 0.4mm of stock at the bottom to help hold it in place (I guess like a tab, but all the way around), then just run a cut with a smaller bit that doesn't go too near the side wall to release the part, trim away the excess and then put a chamfer on the back side to clean it all up.

Desertboy
15-09-2017, 12:29 AM
Vac table and jig is the way forward ;)

I'm doing a simple vac table with the idea that any repeated parts I'll jig up for to reduce the time it take to align parts. Seems to me 90% of the time you spend on cnc is aligning the part not the machining. Jig up correctly and you can reduce that alignment time the better the jig the less time you spend resetting the part. After all if you're repeating cuts you only need to generate the gcode once.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFmdSLs1EUw

JOGARA
23-09-2017, 11:05 PM
Received my TPA2 yesterday. Looks really well made.
Sadly I am off all week so wont get to play till October :(

JOGARA
05-10-2017, 04:56 PM
Zeeflyboy, any suggestions on where to start with the TPA-2?

Not been given any docs other than this;
http://kurokesu.com/main/2015/12/30/connecting-touch-probe-to-mach3/

Zeeflyboy
05-10-2017, 06:03 PM
I'm afraid I don't use the same motion controller as you, nor do I use Mach3 anymore... but it should be fairly straight forwards.

Hook it up to the same point that the normal probe goes to, but you just need to go to the ports and pins part to invert the signal mach is looking for as it's a normally closed circuit vs normally open. If you flip over to the diagnostics page of mach you should then be able to see the probe input trigger as you press on the probe tip.

It is definitely worth spending a couple of minutes dialing in the probe tip using a dial indicator before each use - the runout of the spindle/collets results in me getting anything up to around 0.1mm of runout all the way down at the tip which will affect any probing results. Within a couple of minutes of careful tweaking I can get that down to less than 0.01mm

As for probing on mach3 - I've never done it. I think there were some screen sets for mach3 that have probing built in, or you could write a small macro to do it (or use someone else's) but the info is out there if you have a look. Mach4 makes things quite simple with a dedicated probing section built in so I've never had to figure anything out in that regard.

JOGARA
05-10-2017, 07:35 PM
I'm afraid I don't use the same motion controller as you, nor do I use Mach3 anymore... but it should be fairly straight forwards.

Hook it up to the same point that the normal probe goes to, but you just need to go to the ports and pins part to invert the signal mach is looking for as it's a normally closed circuit vs normally open. If you flip over to the diagnostics page of mach you should then be able to see the probe input trigger as you press on the probe tip.

It is definitely worth spending a couple of minutes dialing in the probe tip using a dial indicator before each use - the runout of the spindle/collets results in me getting anything up to around 0.1mm of runout all the way down at the tip which will affect any probing results. Within a couple of minutes of careful tweaking I can get that down to less than 0.01mm

As for probing on mach3 - I've never done it. I think there were some screen sets for mach3 that have probing built in, or you could write a small macro to do it (or use someone else's) but the info is out there if you have a look. Mach4 makes things quite simple with a dedicated probing section built in so I've never had to figure anything out in that regard.


Thanks for the info. The probe does look a tad off from stock. I forgot to get a dial indicator >.<

Trying out the ProbeIt plugin that creates a wizard to probe. It has tools like auto calibrate. Uses a known diameter though and I don't know if I got anything for that :/
Trying to think what I can get that is large enough but not going to break the bank...

Zeeflyboy
05-10-2017, 10:28 PM
in reality you probably don't need to calibrate it.... if probing the inside of a hole for example, everything is relative so you will still find centre of the hole even if the measured dimensions were off.

Calibration is more of interest if you were measuring things for verification purposes.

JOGARA
16-10-2017, 02:14 PM
0.03mm is the best I have gotten so far.
Finding it quite hard to get it any closer :/

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7aCYWHFVZLdpgWCQ/giphy.gif


Is there a way to get Mach3 to move a single step? 0.01mm is a couple steps on the stepper from the looks of it.
And how accurate is the mm readout in the interface? I would rather it move to the nearest 0.01mm rather than this...

https://s1.postimg.org/98ypvmenqn/Capture.png

Zeeflyboy
16-10-2017, 02:49 PM
Typical stepper is 200 steps per revolution. You have 5mm screws, so you move 0.025 per step (5/200).

Microstepping doesnít really count, so the fact you have eg 320 per unit (canít remember exactly what the stock setup is) isnít really what youíre looking at, though you could argue with little to no load it wonít be far off.

That said, I can move mine in 0.01mm steps on the jogging button but I have 1.2 degree steppers (so 0.017mm per full step) with built in encoders and microstepping gives 800 per unit.

Just edit your jog values so that one of them is 0.01mm and itíll do itís best to match. If it is 320/unit then you have a base value of 0.003125 so any movement will be a multiple of that - that means the closest movement to 0.01mm you could theoretically get is 0.009375 which is why the value in the readout looks a bit odd - itís physically impossible for it to move to any value that isnít a multiple of 0.003125. Again though microstepping is not really reliable regarding accuracy so your ďrealĒ resolution is 0.025 as limited by the motor steps per degree and the pitch of the ball screw.

Btw I would try to use the least amount of travel on the dial indicator - those type can have a fair bit of spring push and you may be deflecting the probe rod slightly. No guarantee that the deflection is equal all the way around.

Do you actually need to jog into the dial for this? I just spin the guage zero so that it sits in the middle of the values for either side and then adjust probe until it reaches close to zero, then move to the next set of screws and repeat, then go back to the first as it may have moved slightly. That will normally get runout to less than 0.01mm for me. Definitely a bit of a knack to it but it only takes me a few minutes now.

Oh and finally have you tried calibrating the machine? Mine wasnít exactly wonderfully accurate out of the box. I think mach3 even has a screw calibration wizard that saves you doing the maths.

JOGARA
16-10-2017, 05:23 PM
I have not changed anything other than adding ProbeIt to the wizard.
Don't like messing with stuff.

This is default.
https://s1.postimg.org/79q0xvnwsv/Capture.png

What would be the highest resolution I can get from this without it being too weak?
That and roundest number possible :p


I moved back on the indicator and got around 0.025mm so tiny bit of movement yes.



Ideally I want to be able to probe my soft jaws and just batch process a load of cases.
Changing tools all the time takes time.

JOGARA
16-10-2017, 07:20 PM
The only way around this is to mill the outside and front of my case first, then flip and mill inside with the degree of error being around 0.05-0.075mm.
This would allow me to vacuum plate the first operation on the front of the case, removing the need for super glue.

I think I could live with that...

Ideally I could get it all bang on but that is not looking like it is going to happen on this machine any time soon... :/

Zeeflyboy
16-10-2017, 10:30 PM
I wouldn't get overly obsessed with the DRO giving a round number read out - better that it is actually calibrated correctly.

After all, other than for reasons of OCD consider that your 17.9188 from the DRO above is only 0.0012mm away from the commanded 17.92 - 0.0012mm is roughly half the width of a typical bacterium (which are commonly 0.01mm long too for context!) Basically it's a level of precision that your machine couldn't possibly hope to achieve anywhere near so it's irrelevant for all but how neat the DRO looks.

When you correctly calibrate the ballscrews, likelihood is that you will end up with a horrendous number like 321.24 as your calibrated steps per mm which of course means you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ending up at a round number on the DRO.

I'm not sure how you arrive at your conclusion that you will be working to an error of 0.05 to 0.075mm.... but 0.05mm is nothing to be sniffed at... it's a very good level of accuracy realistically speaking - less than the thickness of a typical human hair.

Increasing the microstepping won't really help... if anything it just makes it harder for your motion controller to keep up at high speeds. Microstepping really only serves to make things smoother, gains in resolution are mostly illusionary.

JOGARA
17-10-2017, 12:06 AM
Sorry I meant 0.5-0.75mm.
I think it will be fine. Just need to rework a few things in my CAM

Thanks for the info

Snapper
17-10-2017, 12:38 AM
I have the same machine. A couple of things. I have recently done a batch run like what you're wanting to do. I did it by marking my vice with a bit of white electrical tape and eyeballing the edge of the stock up to it, drilled all the holes with the same drill bit (smallest hole size, the larger holes I opened it manually with a cordless whilst the next part was on the machine) on the vice then moved them over to a fixture plate for profiling, located by two dowels after reaming two of the holes by hand, then ran the profile paths, chamfer, flip, chamfer.

If you are touching the home switches at any point, don't. They are lousy and will introduce anywhere between 0.04 to 0.32 error on each axis. The machine itself isn't so awfully bad at repeatability, there is a bit of backlash in mine but it ran the ops on all 6 of the parts I made without any major visual error. I chucked up my dti between each tool change and rezeroed off the reamed hole on my bed I use as a reference just to be sure but it was probably a waste of time.

To step jog, press tab on your keyboard in mach3 and you can change between continuous jog mode and step jog, and also change the step value. Spinning a dti in a reamed hole to find zero I use 0.01mm step and I'm normally back out the hole and putting a tool in within a minute.

Tool changing is the enemy. My z setter is nuts for some reason and will never give close to the same result twice so I've been z setting with a feeler gauge for awhile, takes a little longer but it's absolutely on point. Cleaning the spindle taper, spindle threads and collet nut between each tool change is also a real bastard (I've just ordered a second collet nut so I have one clean with the tool mounted ready to screw in). And also spend far too much time making sure I have the mist nozzles pointing in the right place.

Zeeflyboy
17-10-2017, 12:46 AM
Well you should certainly be able to do a lot better than that... why do you think you'll be stuck with that level of inaccuracy?

My admittedly limited testing has showed the probe (runout adjusted each time) to find centre of a bore to within less than 0.02mm.... a quick way to check this is to run a centre probe, take a note of the Machine co-ordinates rather than the work co-ordinates, clock the probe eg 90 degrees and run the centre probing again. note how much the machine co-orindates have changed by after it re-zeros, repeat that a few times at different clocks and the maximum variation in machine co-orindates gives you a good indication of how reliably it is finding centre.

Finding zero from probing two edges to find a corner is a slightly different kettle of fish as you would need to calibrate to take account of deflection before the probe triggers to get truly accurate results. Centre probing mostly gets rid of this issue as deflection occurs on both sides.

If machining using a jig/soft jaws, you can always ream a bore in the jig/jaw that will then serve as your zero point.

I would say with a bit of thought you should certainly be able to get two sided machining to within a very tight tolerance (in terms of repeatability - absolute accuracy is another question as you could for example be eg 0.1mm out on all dimensions but as they will all be the same then relative to each other it doesn't matter).

Zeeflyboy
17-10-2017, 12:52 AM
Tool changing is the enemy. My z setter is nuts for some reason and will never give close to the same result twice so I've been z setting with a feeler gauge for awhile, takes a little longer but it's absolutely on point. Cleaning the spindle taper, spindle threads and collet nut between each tool change is also a real bastard

I do something very similar these days - I have a reel of 0.01mm shim steel and I jog the tool up to just short of the z-zero surface, then jog in 0.01mm increments while sliding the shim material back and forth. Once it grabs you know you are 0.01mm above the surface and it works rather well for me.

Interesting point about cleaning between changes... Until relatively recently I never paid much heed to this and the amount of gunk that I managed to clean out of my spindle bore was eye opening. more than halved my runout by cleaning it out.... now every tool change I use compressed air to clean out the collets and bore, and usually a piece of oiled kitchen towel to wipe out the bore before then re-inserting the new collet if changing collet size.

Snapper
17-10-2017, 01:34 AM
I do something very similar these days - I have a reel of 0.01mm shim steel and I jog the tool up to just short of the z-zero surface, then jog in 0.01mm increments while sliding the shim material back and forth. Once it grabs you know you are 0.01mm above the surface and it works rather well for me.

Interesting point about cleaning between changes... Until relatively recently I never paid much heed to this and the amount of gunk that I managed to clean out of my spindle bore was eye opening. more than halved my runout by cleaning it out.... now every tool change I use compressed air to clean out the collets and bore, and usually a piece of oiled kitchen towel to wipe out the bore before then re-inserting the new collet if changing collet size.

I use a thicker 0.55mm gauge purely because it's more solid so easier to keep straight and flat. I eyeball down then step jog back up until it fits under.

Yeah cleaning everything is absolutely paramount to getting a nice cut. Specially with alu, chips get in the slots in the collet and cause absolute carnage. I use isopropyl alocohol on paper towel. It's quite amazing just how much black comes off everything, even after a relatively short op. I have a piece which got scrapped anyway because I didn't realign the flip properly, but each side done using the same tool in the same collet in the same nut and the difference in surface finish between the two sides is incredible. The difference being when I first inserted the tool for the first side I forgot to clean everything up first. I will dig it out the scrap box tomorrow and upload a pic as it's a great example.

Snapper
17-10-2017, 01:08 PM
Here's two pics from different angles. Again this was the same tool in the same collet in the same nut running the same g-code file. Only difference being on the top half (first op) I forgot to clean everything when changing the tool. For the lower half I took the tool out and cleaned everything up.

Quite a difference!!

2307523074

JOGARA
17-10-2017, 02:50 PM
Thanks for all the info.
I have been using the tool bit to touch off for a while and get okay results. Was hoping the probe would be better and faster.

I have 2 holes in my soft jaws to use as touch off points. I might try and use that method instead of touching off the edges.
The ProbeIt thing is acting up though with the auto probing. Probes something then fucks off somewhere....


Trying to use this bit to make my Fillets. https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutters-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-rounding-end-mill-cutter-for-general-use-30mm-radius-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html
I am not 100% on the Fusion tool library and can't find examples for this sort of tool.

https://s1.postimg.org/33kdp5mgcv/Capture.png
NOTE, Diameter is set to 1.3mm and shaft to 8mm. This image is old.

I got it to work though it was either too close to the part on the XY or too high on the Z. Not used it in over 2 months.
Any ideas?



I'v been cleaning mine out too. Not noticed any difference though I have not been looking.
For me it gets clogged up in the collet so when removing the tool I blast it.


[edit]
Think I got it working now. Though speeds and feeds are probably wrong.
Lots of chatter.

JOGARA
17-10-2017, 07:44 PM
So I just used the probe and by hand found the center of one of the button holes in my case.
Was then able to chamfer the edges.
Not bad, not great. Was a hair out on the Y. X was perfect.

I just added 0.025mm to the Y and it is near perfect.
So Zeeflyboy your method works... :p

The real test would be machining around my part top and bottom now with out much, if any step in the surface finish once flipped and had the same operation done.

I guess the best way to do the flip is to leave 0.0something on the bottom of my stock and then flip, then remove that last 0.0something and chamfer...?

Snapper
18-10-2017, 05:15 PM
So I just used the probe and by hand found the center of one of the button holes in my case.
Was then able to chamfer the edges.
Not bad, not great. Was a hair out on the Y. X was perfect.

I just added 0.025mm to the Y and it is near perfect.
So Zeeflyboy your method works... :p

The real test would be machining around my part top and bottom now with out much, if any step in the surface finish once flipped and had the same operation done.

I guess the best way to do the flip is to leave 0.0something on the bottom of my stock and then flip, then remove that last 0.0something and chamfer...?

How deep is your case to cut in one pass? I don't think you will ever get this machine to flip a part and cut from both sides without leaving a step, but you should be able to make it small enough to sand and polish out.

Just to give an idea of the machines repeatability I zeroed in on the reamed hole mentioned above, moved my coordinate system over to the vice, milled out a part that was ~1hr machining time, came back to the reamed hole and it was 0.045mm out in Y and 0.02mm out in X.

You should be able to get the results you're after without probing everything. If this is something you're going to be making multiples of it would be well worth your time in making a proper jig.

JOGARA
18-10-2017, 05:39 PM
How deep is your case to cut in one pass? I don't think you will ever get this machine to flip a part and cut from both sides without leaving a step, but you should be able to make it small enough to sand and polish out.

Just to give an idea of the machines repeatability I zeroed in on the reamed hole mentioned above, moved my coordinate system over to the vice, milled out a part that was ~1hr machining time, came back to the reamed hole and it was 0.045mm out in Y and 0.02mm out in X.

You should be able to get the results you're after without probing everything. If this is something you're going to be making multiples of it would be well worth your time in making a proper jig.

I have worked out that I don't need to do the flip on the outside.
I will just use the super glue method to stick my stock onto some sacrificial that I can reuse.
Adds a bit of work removing the glue but it has worked since day 1.

Flipping the part and milling the rest would have meant not spending time on that but it works, don't fix it.


At the moment I can make 2 cases at once. I'd rather not go beyond that as it is more setup and I just need to start making these things now.
Can't spend any more time trying to make it better for batch production...

I have got it to around 3 hours total per pair of cases (not including the rear of the case, though a pair of those are 30 mins.
I can probably get it down 10 mins just with less cautious lead in and lead out distances.
Most of the time is spent with my 6mm roughing bit. That takes out 95% of the material and totals nearly 2 hours of 3.
I have found that I can cut 2mm depth quite well at 75% of the feed it is currently doing (currently 1mm DOC) with my 6mm rougher, so putting adjusting that will result in less time too. Not much but another 10 mins off.

In total I a have 100 of 2 different case designs to make. At this rate I can make around 6 every day.
But for vast majority of that time I will be working on other things (tumblring, PCBs, Anodising, Finishing etc) while keeping an ear on it so it is not that bad.

Snapper
18-10-2017, 09:58 PM
Just looked back through the thread for pics. I have a suggestion.

First, it looks like your buying custom cut plates? If so, order them cut to size, they always come cut slightly oversize, so rather than milling all that away from the edges, you would just be trimming a mm or so off each side saving you in both material costs and machining time.

Second, you could make a fixture plate for accurate location after flipping. Carry on machining out the guts inside on your vice, in the pic below the three holes circled you could drill out .1mm undersize, hand ream them to size, then use dowel pins in these holes to locate into the fixture plate. These dowels will also pretty much hold the part in X and Y, with a bolt through one of the big square holes and a large washer just to keep everything dead still. Then you can profile round the edge and chamfer or radius your top edges. When it comes to do the square hole which you have a bolt through, just have a pause in your toolpath and move the bolt over to a different hole. This would then also give you the ability to pull a case off and put a new one on without having to rezero, you could also run a toolpath on all your cases in a row, saving you the need to keep changing tools. If you have more than a couple of these cases to make, it would be well worth the price of a 10mm slab of ali and the hour or so it takes to draw up, machine and fix in place. And also far preferable to dealing with super glue.

(Ok it won't let me upload a pic for some reason, but there's only three holes I can see so you should get the idea)

JOGARA
23-10-2017, 07:21 PM
So I finally got that grounding issue message. Guessing I just ground the spindle with the box of the controller?

Snapper
23-10-2017, 08:45 PM
Pretty much. I just ran an earth cable from a bolt at the back of the frame to the box and earthed everything at that point. It was sticking a CY cable on the spindle that solved my problems.

JOGARA
24-10-2017, 09:54 PM
Looks like it fixed that issue. Odd how all of a sudden that came on.

In other news, Y keeps getting off by a few 0.1s of mm.
X has been fine. This was after 4 hours of roughing out.
Can see on the walls of these two cases that one is thicker than the other.

https://s1.postimg.org/59idb6qtcv/IMG_20171024_190434827.jpg

JOGARA
25-10-2017, 03:21 PM
So after yesterday's work I think I worked out how I am ending up with this problem.

Pressing the STOP button on the remote results in whatever axis is moving to end up being 0.01-0.2mm off where it thinks it is.


Using the pause button is not having the same result from the looks of it.


What I need is for it to not go all the way back home after each OP because that is also resulting in it being out by a few 0.01s over time...

[edit] Will just edit out "G28 Y0 X0"...

JOGARA
25-10-2017, 10:43 PM
So I am having much better luck today.

The probe is 0.1-0.2mm out on both X and Y but I think I am starting to see a pattern so should be able to just offset it next round.
Did end up with 0.2mm out on the Y with these cases but they are not being sold.

https://s1.postimg.org/2atq3uqmen/IMG_20171025_153244374.jpg


I keep getting this bump on the Y face. It is only a hair deep but you can visually see it and feel it.
It is where the operation starts and ends so I am guessing it is something to do with that, not having enough overlap to smooth it out if the bit is coming off the part too quickly?

https://s1.postimg.org/74ikzza8wv/IMG_20171025_153449825_HDR.jpg
https://s1.postimg.org/2w3dq5i2of/IMG_20171025_163624223.jpg




My soft jaws work really well for holding the cases. Though these were milled back in the day and are not level any more. Probably because I removed them and put them back.
Don't think my vice is all that accurate as well, it not being a proper machinist vice does not help.
I wanted to get one but even on eBay they were £500 for the width I need.
As you can see in the second photo, they result in the chamfer being messed up on one of the edges.

https://s1.postimg.org/6j8xdog0bz/IMG_20171025_153657104.jpg
https://s1.postimg.org/1igum48qdr/IMG_20171025_163556072_HDR.jpg



Was able to do a nice chamfer on the button and other front face holes for electronic components.

https://s1.postimg.org/6xfd4joycf/IMG_20171025_163737606_HDR.jpg


Oh and instead of milling out 2-3mm of my mounting holes which I then had to go drill deeper anyway.
Used the chamfer bit to spot the holes so I can just do them on the drill press.
I was already doing them anyway as my 1mm endmill is only 5mm long and I need a few more mm depth.
Other holes like the big one in the middle needed to go all the way down which I can't do with a 3mm endmill that is 5mm long. Do have the 15mm long one that would work but rather just drill it with a 4.5mm that use machine time and an expensive bit...
Obviously the chamfer bit is not made for this, will be swapping it out for a spot drill bit once it arrives.
I have looked at drilling with the mill. I tried it but got horrid results. Though it was probably down to bad setup. Not sure if this machine is really capable of drilling though. Thoughts? https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/carbide-drills-3-0mm-5-9mm-diameter-standard-series-.html
https://s1.postimg.org/6j8xdog0bz/IMG_20171025_153657104.jpg






[edit] Just taken out the parts from the vibratory tumbler and they are looking great.
Really love that thing. They go in for 4 hours and come out great.
So smooth even with some sharp edges. Shame it is such a pain to clean out, not done it yet but that drain port I need to fix...

Snapper
25-10-2017, 11:24 PM
Nice you're getting there now. For that bump on the Y that's your lead in for your contour, change it so that it sweeps into the cut instead of just moving directly into position.

It can drill fine anywhere up to 8mm I find. 6mm and below it goes through like butter nice and quiet and makes nice long stringy chips. If it's a size you use often it's worth getting carbide drills as you can spin them faster, get them under a bit of torque and also don't need to spot drill first with them either so it saves a bit of time.

JOGARA
25-10-2017, 11:58 PM
Nice you're getting there now. For that bump on the Y that's your lead in for your contour, change it so that it sweeps into the cut instead of just moving directly into position.

It can drill fine anywhere up to 8mm I find. 6mm and below it goes through like butter nice and quiet and makes nice long stringy chips. If it's a size you use often it's worth getting carbide drills as you can spin them faster, get them under a bit of torque and also don't need to spot drill first with them either so it saves a bit of time.


Well I have 1.2mm, 2.5mm, 3mm and 4.5mm holes.
Would it be able to do 1.2mm at something like 5-6mm depth?

Any info on this you know of? Bit scared about Z movement still.

Snapper
26-10-2017, 12:31 AM
The smallest I have used in ali is 3mm, which was fine. You can drill as long as your flutes are, peck cycle is easy to set up for deeper holes (linking tab on the drilling op in fusion) I generally do to 2/2.5x diameter then use a peck cycle.

I'm not sure what you mean about Z movement. But for as small as 1.2mm I would think a properly trammed spindle would be pretty essential. I can't see why it wouldn't do 1.2mm to 6mm depth, in fact I think the spindle would quite like it as a drill that small will be able to spin pretty fast and won't generate much force. For so many different sizes though you have to weigh up time saved having the machine do it vs time swapping collets and touching off tools. As you said you're making 100 odd, I would be tempted to make a jig with the machine to put the parts on and just drill all the holes with a cordless.

JOGARA
26-10-2017, 12:43 AM
I'll stick with the drill press then.
Wonder if these carbide bits will be better than my hss that I am currently using.
Sometimes the 1.2mm breaks so over 400 holes I am going to go through a few.

That or I do do it in the machine and use my soft jaws.
Might test repeatability tomorrow.

Snapper
26-10-2017, 12:47 AM
I wouldn't use carbide bits on a drill press, particularly not that small. Your chuck likely has a fair bit of runout and carbide will snap in it like a digestive biscuit.

JOGARA
26-10-2017, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't use carbide bits on a drill press, particularly not that small. Your chuck likely has a fair bit of runout and carbide will snap in it like a digestive biscuit.

Good point.


Not having much luck today.
1 HSS and 1 Carbide down so far and I have only been in the shop for a couple hours -_-

Gives me an excuse to buy some more bits.
Grabbed a 1.2mm for my M1.6 tapped holes (probably swap for 0.3mm as M1.6 holes are meant to be tapped at 1.25mm not 1.2mm).
Also got a 2.5mm for my M3 tapped holes and a spot drill.

JOGARA
04-11-2017, 02:32 PM
Not sure what is going on here.

I have not used the machine in a few days, like 5-7 days.
When I go to home all the axis the Z does not stop when it hits the end stop.

Forgot how I fixed it last time it did this about 1.5 weeks ago.



Also, sometimes when I set my part offsets and then tell it to go to the part's zero, the Z will go about 5-10mm below the set Z. I then tell it to go to zero again and it lifts Z to the correct height.

[edit]
Why is it also normally open? Would have thought NC would be safer?

[edit2]
Gone into diagnostics and all but the Z axis limit switches are working.
The switch its self is working so guessing cable problem.

[edit]
Yea it is cable..

Snapper
04-11-2017, 06:21 PM
I have the same thing with the go to zero command, always goes to Z-5, I just don't use it and use g0 x0 y0 if I ever need to go there for any reason. Keep meaning to look in to it but always forget.

JOGARA
12-11-2017, 01:53 PM
Having some trouble with Fusion and I have no idea what is going wrong.

For some reason my heights are all over the place and is taking away too much stock on the Z.

Here is part of my case, in RED is what it is meant to be, and in BLUE is what I am getting (using my cheap caliper but it is pretty close to accurate).

https://preview.ibb.co/hORGdG/Capture.png (https://ibb.co/grrhJG)

I am using 3D adaptive clearing for the inside of the case, I set the bottom of the operation on the face of my part at the bottom. This is 2.5mm above the bottom of the stock (I have just switched to +2.5mm bottom stock instead of face selection). I then have another 3D adaptive to clear out the holes at the bottom of the case (I do this because I leave stock and then clean it up using a 3mm carbide).

https://preview.ibb.co/im9mdG/Capture1.png (https://ibb.co/gqPKyG)
https://preview.ibb.co/fYeV5w/Capture3.png (https://ibb.co/keZKyG)

Both operations are the same, just different heights and stock to leave.
https://image.ibb.co/nHqysb/Capture4.png (https://imgbb.com/)
(All my heights are .0mm or .5mm I don't have any heights that are .1mm other than telling it to go 0.2mm lower than the stock bottom for clearance reasons later in the setup)

Any ideas?

Snapper
13-11-2017, 03:00 PM
There are so many things that could be causing this.

Are all those top surfaces cut by the same tool in the same set up? I can't see how you're cutting 1.7mm too deep from the side wall to the pocket surface, but then the pocket surface is only 1mm deeper than it should be compared to the bottom surface so I think this is a set up error. If you're sure you're setting your Z height accurately, its probably an error in the heights or stock to leave.

JOGARA
14-11-2017, 04:58 PM
There are so many things that could be causing this.

Are all those top surfaces cut by the same tool in the same set up? I can't see how you're cutting 1.7mm too deep from the side wall to the pocket surface, but then the pocket surface is only 1mm deeper than it should be compared to the bottom surface so I think this is a set up error. If you're sure you're setting your Z height accurately, its probably an error in the heights or stock to leave.

There is no stock to leave. Z height is all the same for all the operations.
I am using the 6mm roughing bit for most of the milling on this part. It does all the surfaces too.

I just ran the operation again but specificity all the heights manually from stock bottom and now it is just 0.3mm out.

The towers are all the correct height which is okay. But the bottom being so far down means my PCBs don't sit and the part that sits in the curved section is not being clamped down, it is just lose as there is 0.6mm too much Z.

This is definitely something in my Fusion operation.


I do have the minimum Z DOC at 0.5, so why it is cutting down at something not divisible to that, idk..

m_c
14-11-2017, 05:29 PM
Is your Z axis calibrated correctly, and not gaining/loosing steps?
I'd double check the calibration, then mark the z-shaft, create a program that runs the Z up/down a hundred or so times, and check it's returning to the same mark.

If that reveals nothing, try modelling and machining a simple stepped block, to see if it's a fusion or machine problem.
While machining pay attention to where the mark on the shaft is at a known position, then return to that position at the end to see if anything has moved.

JOGARA
14-11-2017, 05:40 PM
Is your Z axis calibrated correctly, and not gaining/loosing steps?
I'd double check the calibration, then mark the z-shaft, create a program that runs the Z up/down a hundred or so times, and check it's returning to the same mark.

If that reveals nothing, try modelling and machining a simple stepped block, to see if it's a fusion or machine problem.
While machining pay attention to where the mark on the shaft is at a known position, then return to that position at the end to see if anything has moved.

This has only been a problem with the last 2 setups I have ran.
All the ones before executed as expected.

Snapper
14-11-2017, 05:45 PM
If you have your heights set up accurately, where do you have your part located in the actual set up? Fusion automatically sets the part in the centre of the stock and you have to change it manually. If correct...

How are you setting your Z height? If using the Z setter I tested that quite a bit one day and got errors anywhere up to 0.3mm even using a slowed down double probing routine, its just not consistent for some reason, or at least mine isn't anyway. I don't use it anymore and touch off with a feeler gauge which takes a little longer but is far more accurate and repeatable.

Also the original hollow panel OMIO bed is a block of turd to put it lightly, putting a sheet of A4 paper on it will probably cause it to deflect. Getting smooth top surfaces and accurate heights is nigh on impossible, so expect to see a bit of error. I got a big slab of aluminium tooling plate to replace it and the improvement is massive. The last part I made was meant to be 12.55mm high and came out at 12.54mm with both surfaces flat to within 0.00mm and smooth to the touch. An impossible task on the original bed, its an addition worth its weight in gold imo, well worth looking in to.

m_c
14-11-2017, 05:49 PM
This has only been a problem with the last 2 setups I have ran.
All the ones before executed as expected.

I wouldn't make assumptions!
Are your previous setups still working as expected?

JOGARA
14-11-2017, 07:07 PM
My stock in Fusion is the same size as my actual stock. My part is the same height as the stock so no offsets.

I am manually moving the bit down till it touches the surface. It has been more than accurate for what I am doing. Not 0.3mm out though..

I am pretty sure this is a thing in CAD though not the machine or my physical setup of it.


I wouldn't make assumptions!
Are your previous setups still working as expected?

I can test tomorrow.

Snapper
14-11-2017, 07:19 PM
Are you measuring each piece of stock prior? There can be a lot of deviation on the extrusions, +inaccuracy from the bed and 0.3mm doesn't sound an unrealistic error at all. If you can use stock bottom as part zero and skim the top surface down slightly you will get far more repeatable results.

Also, if milling on a vice, have you trimmed/shimmed it? So that your jaws or soft jaws are square to your axis.

JOGARA
14-11-2017, 07:43 PM
The stock is bang on 15mm.
The 0.3mm is across the length of my part.

I milled my soft jaws while in place so if anything it should be near enough perfect?

JOGARA
15-11-2017, 05:48 PM
Stupidly knocked my soft jaws out of alignment today.

Losing the will to live atm. Looking for quotes for someone else to make them for me.


This machine is okay but I am just unable to get any accuracy when flipping the part, probably down to myself and this shit vice.

Snapper
15-11-2017, 06:21 PM
Good point about the soft jaws.

Stick at it. Flipping is an acquired art. I would really consider the approach I suggested a few pages back with a fixture plate to use for location and fixing after the flip. It's really quick and easy to make and use and well worth the hour or two it takes to make if you have more than a few parts to make.

JOGARA
16-11-2017, 01:52 PM
No idea where to start in terms of making a fixture plate for these cases...

Vice is easy as I just chop out of the soft jaws the profile of what I am holding.

I have a feeling that this cheap vice is my major problem but also finding the work edge too.
I am now working from the center of my stock/part and using the external sides and halving them to find it, but I am finding it is still off a bit. I think that is more down to the inaccuracy of my probe setup if anything.

Snapper
16-11-2017, 03:39 PM
All you need for a fixture plate is a method for locating and holding the part and a feature to zero off.

I use dowel pins for locating, all you need is enough space on what will be your bottom surface after the flip for drilling two dowel holes. For fixing I don't think I've ever made anything that doesn't have a spare hole or two to put a bolt through to hold it down, on your cases you could just use stick a bolt through the big square holes with a large washer to grip the sides (one of the clamps that came with the OMIO would do). When you need to do an op on/around one of those bolt holes you just program a pause in your toolpath, move the bolt elsewhere on the part and carry on. For x/y zero I drill and ream a nice round hole to zero off, this is obviously at a known location because you have modeled it in CAD, the same goes for the dowel pins, and therefore from your X and Y zero feature you know where everything is to within the tolerance of your hole and dowel pin sizes, which I've never been off more than 0.2mm across the full 355mm length of the X. Z zero for me is always the top of the fixture plate, then when you're facing down the top of your part you know you are bringing it down to an accurate size.

If that makes sense?

Snapper
16-11-2017, 05:16 PM
Also another thing, have you checked your x and y axis are square? Because if they're not then you aren't cutting square shapes, you will be cutting trapezoids and that will show up badly with every flip. If you haven't aligned this yourself it will almost certainly be some way out, mine was massively out and took the best part of two days drilling, shimming, and hammering it all into shape.

JOGARA
16-11-2017, 08:54 PM
[edit]

Just milled a part that worked before and it is correct.
Though I added 1mm body that I forgot to add to the setup so it milled 1mm lower in some parts than I wanted it to be.

It milled how the model is set up though so the depth I believe is correct. Will be able to fully check in a min.


I reinstate my comment on it being a Fusion360 thing not the machine or Mach3.

Snapper
17-11-2017, 12:04 AM
If you think it's fusion, best thing to do is get on the autodesk forum and ask their techs. Their staff are generally quick and helpful at sorting things out, and there are some real fusion brains on there.

JOGARA
18-11-2017, 03:48 PM
No idea what is going on with my Z today. And in general the machine is acting up after working fine for a hour or two.

Just set my Z on my part, ran the program that worked before (doing the same op on the same part to test repeatability) and it just plunged 20mm down into it.
It now thinks the machine cords for Z are 20mm lower than they were just set using 2ref all home".

JOGARA
21-11-2017, 07:43 PM
So I have spent all weekend and this week so far on this problem to no avail.
Had one guy on Fusion forum take a look but he could only simulate it so did not see the problem.

I just noticed on the operation I am running now it looked like it dropped a step.
Wondering if I am taking to much of a DOC or pushing too hard on the feed and it is pulling the bit?
Over time it would result it multiple height differences which I am sort of seeing but some heights are correct.

Once this operation is done ill touch off from the top of my stock and see where it thinks it is.

JOGARA
21-11-2017, 08:26 PM
I have just touched off my part and it is saying it is +1.3mm.
Visually it looks like the bit is further down than it should be so I think it confirms that it is slipping.

I am using the correct collette size and it is tight when I insert the bit.
Not stupid tiht but it grabs onto the bit.
I am not over cranking the thread when putting it onto my spindle as I don't want to over do it. But it is still quite tight.

What is my best option here?

m_c
22-11-2017, 11:29 AM
What type of spindle/collet?

If it's ER, then it sounds like you're not tightening it enough. ER collets have to be tight or bits will pull out. There are torque settings for standard ER collet nuts, but typically it's as tight as you can get it with your hands and standard sized spanners, however that's assuming things are well anchored. On a freely spinning spindle, gauging tightness can be a bit tricky.

Neale
22-11-2017, 12:04 PM
It's possible to buy replacement ball-bearing collet closer nuts for ER spindles. Arc Euro stock them, as an example. I use these on a couple of different ER collet spindles in my workshop, including the ER20 spindle on my CNC router, and they make tightening the collet much easier.

JOGARA
22-11-2017, 01:08 PM
What type of spindle/collet?

If it's ER, then it sounds like you're not tightening it enough. ER collets have to be tight or bits will pull out. There are torque settings for standard ER collet nuts, but typically it's as tight as you can get it with your hands and standard sized spanners, however that's assuming things are well anchored. On a freely spinning spindle, gauging tightness can be a bit tricky.


It is the standard Chinese 2.2Kw one you can grab off ebay for a couple hundred.
ER20.
Ill try it a lot tighter then.

Is there anything I can do to the bit or the ER24 collect light rough it up a bit to get some more grip out of it?



It's possible to buy replacement ball-bearing collet closer nuts for ER spindles. Arc Euro stock them, as an example. I use these on a couple of different ER collet spindles in my workshop, including the ER20 spindle on my CNC router, and they make tightening the collet much easier.

Ill take a look, thanks!

JOGARA
22-11-2017, 06:05 PM
Just ran the operation again and I think the same thing has happened again.
Not had a chance to measure yet but it looks like the bit is about 1mm lower than it should be.

Will report back soon


[edit]

Yep, 1.15mm drop on the bit.

Ordered the "ER20 Collet Nut with Ball Bearing - Type A - M25x1.5 Thread", hopefully that is the right one and works...
I also went through all my stock with this problem -_-

Chaz
23-11-2017, 10:39 PM
Just ran the operation again and I think the same thing has happened again.
Not had a chance to measure yet but it looks like the bit is about 1mm lower than it should be.

Will report back soon


[edit]

Yep, 1.15mm drop on the bit.

Ordered the "ER20 Collet Nut with Ball Bearing - Type A - M25x1.5 Thread", hopefully that is the right one and works...
I also went through all my stock with this problem -_-

It would be nice if you replied to PMs about the RFQ you posted.

Thanks

JOGARA
23-11-2017, 11:09 PM
It would be nice if you replied to PMs about the RFQ you posted.

Thanks


Thought I replied to everyone. Did I miss you?
If so sorry. Update on the whole thing, we are going to try and machine them here, if it does not work we will continue looking at quotes.

Chaz
24-11-2017, 11:00 AM
Thought I replied to everyone. Did I miss you?
If so sorry. Update on the whole thing, we are going to try and machine them here, if it does not work we will continue looking at quotes.

Yep, didnt get any response. No problem.

The STLs you provided were out of scale too, they dont translate to workable CAD parts. They can be converted but Fusion refused. Its better (for future) to export to something other than STL if possible (Step / IGES etc).

JOGARA
24-11-2017, 01:33 PM
Yep, didnt get any response. No problem.

The STLs you provided were out of scale too, they dont translate to workable CAD parts. They can be converted but Fusion refused. Its better (for future) to export to something other than STL if possible (Step / IGES etc).

Yea all the people sending me messages said that.
Though they print fine on my 3D printer exporting that way..??



[edit]
Whats with the off center ring on these collect nuts btw?
I have seen it on both this new ball bearing one and my current one shipped with the machine.

https://s8.postimg.org/stn4ezcqt/IMG_20171124_123758358.jpg

Clive S
24-11-2017, 04:39 PM
[edit]
Whats with the off center ring on these collect nuts btw?
I have seen it on both this new ball bearing one and my current one shipped with the machine.
That is to hold the collet in place. You have to wiggle the collet in there. I take it you have been doing this, as this might have been your problem.

Chaz
24-11-2017, 05:39 PM
Yea all the people sending me messages said that.
Though they print fine on my 3D printer exporting that way..??



[edit]
Whats with the off center ring on these collect nuts btw?
I have seen it on both this new ball bearing one and my current one shipped with the machine.

https://s8.postimg.org/stn4ezcqt/IMG_20171124_123758358.jpg

I suspect its the way that our CAD systems are 'interpreting' the STL. I know there are some attributes that you can change when you import but not knowing the 'source', we may not know these and this means that the outputted assumption is wrong.

The fact that I wasnt the only person that said this means that there is something not 100%.

What do you use the make the STL?

m_c
24-11-2017, 07:57 PM
That is to hold the collet in place. You have to wiggle the collet in there. I take it you have been doing this, as this might have been your problem.

It's actually to extract the collet from the holder. If you don't clip the collet past the offset lip, then the nut doesn't pull the collet back out when slackened, which can leave you with quite a big headache. Off course not clipping it in also causes uneven clamping, which can lead to excess runout and things not being as secure as they could be...

Clive S
24-11-2017, 08:08 PM
It's actually to extract the collet from the holder. If you don't clip the collet past the offset lip, then the nut doesn't pull the collet back out when slackened, which can leave you with quite a big headache. Off course not clipping it in also causes uneven clamping, which can lead to excess runout and things not being as secure as they could be...

Of course you are correct:redface: My bad.

JOGARA
24-11-2017, 11:40 PM
I suspect its the way that our CAD systems are 'interpreting' the STL. I know there are some attributes that you can change when you import but not knowing the 'source', we may not know these and this means that the outputted assumption is wrong.

The fact that I wasnt the only person that said this means that there is something not 100%.

What do you use the make the STL?

Exporting straight fro Fusion360 by right clicking my part and selecting "save as STL"






But why is it offset?
Wouldn't it also add vibration to the machine?

m_c
25-11-2017, 12:29 AM
But why is it offset?
Wouldn't it also add vibration to the machine?

It's offset so you can get the collet in/out easily.
If it wasn't offset, you'd not be able to get the collet in/out easily, or you risk the collet popping out the nut when trying to remove the nut/cullet from the chuck.

Balanced nuts are available, if balance is an issue.

JOGARA
27-11-2017, 03:38 PM
Trying to reduce the force that is pulling down the bit.

The thing I changed when it started to happen was that I went from 1mm DOC to 1.5mm DOC.
So I am changing that back (sadly the 1.5mm DOC halfs my machine time which is why I want it).

Wondering if the helix is also too much? It sounds nasty when it does it but that could be down to the machine rigidity?

https://s17.postimg.org/uiuisjc73/Capture.png


I am tempted to grab a 8mm carbide drill bit and use that to get as far down as possible and use that hole as the "pre drill position"

Chaz
27-11-2017, 04:02 PM
Exporting straight fro Fusion360 by right clicking my part and selecting "save as STL"






But why is it offset?
Wouldn't it also add vibration to the machine?

Not sure. Perhaps rather saving it as Fusion3D or similar.

JOGARA
28-11-2017, 10:21 AM
Where can I get some oil or whatever to aid with cooling.

Reddit users said my setup for cooling was a bit shit and I have to agree. It is something I have not really looked at improving yet.
They also said my speeds and feeds were wrong for my 6mm roughing bit.

Apparently 12k is wayyyyyy to fast for my feed of 360mm so I am going to try in a bit with 6K and speeding up the feed slowly.

These two things will help resolve my issue.

spluppit
28-11-2017, 01:42 PM
Trying to reduce the force that is pulling down the bit.

The thing I changed when it started to happen was that I went from 1mm DOC to 1.5mm DOC.
So I am changing that back (sadly the 1.5mm DOC halfs my machine time which is why I want it).

Wondering if the helix is also too much? It sounds nasty when it does it but that could be down to the machine rigidity?

https://s17.postimg.org/uiuisjc73/Capture.png


I am tempted to grab a 8mm carbide drill bit and use that to get as far down as possible and use that hole as the "pre drill position"

If you are having these kind of problems now I really dread to think whats coming.

I thought your problem was the cutter being pushed back in the collet not being pulled out? Maybe i need to read back and check that out again. The ramp is fine if anything its to shallow cutters need and want to be worked, sadly you cant do this on a machine like you have. It's just not up to it.

The collet/Nut cutter slippage problem you have. Something is wrong somewhere. These ER systems, although not the best in engineering terms are perfectly adequate for their purpose. Either the collet is out, the spindle taper is out the shank on the cutter tapered. Something is wrong somewhere. It could be you and just lack of knowledge and experience I cant say for definite because i'm not there to see or check whats going on. You are using baby cutters which generate little load and there is no way you need a ball nut for what you are doing. Tightened correctly all should be fine. I cut far in excess of what you are doing by multiple times with ER systems as i have done for years with little issue if ever. It could be a combination of things going on, without someone being there who's knows their stuff its hard to quantify. Also no you should not rough up the cutter or collet or anything for that matter you will solve nothing but will cost your self new equipment when it's buggered up. Plus all this gear is hardened so only serious animalisation would have any effect to 'roughen up'

Regarding your ramp. This is the bottom line, rigidity is everything and more so trying to use helical strategy's because it strains the machine in all directing that traditional tool paths don't. Rigidity is something you do not have, I'm not surprised it sounds bad. In Engineering terms, if it sound bad, it is bad. It's bad for the machine its bad for the cutter particularly and will give premature excessive tool wear so be prepared to be buying many cutters.

You have to work within the restrictions of the machine you have. A machine like that is not capable of very much hence why you can not do very much.

I did also pm you about your RFQ but like Chaz i also had no reply after you sent models that were in a usable format. It was only after mailing you i realised this thread existed which did throw another light on the RFQ and why i had no reply most likely. After seeing this thread it's obvious by first choice you want to try to tackle this job on your own and after buying a machine. No one can blame you for that and i admire anyone that has a go. After reading this whole thread through I do kind of think you went in the wrong direction for what you want to do, the quantities particularly is going to be hard on a time vs money factor unless you have zero value of your time and you physically have the time to be spending so long on each part, plus the times scales you quoted per part are very long indeed. Without proper coolant systems and a tool changer on a machine and one that as the ability to actually cut properly, I think you are really up against it in a big way.

I did offer to give you a run through of your parts on the phone via my pm and explain how you could help yourself a lot with the designs and other details with no obligation on your part. It's pretty much impossible to design parts to be economically manufactured without having a good machine shop grounding. This is what i was offering you FOC with no obligation. I have helped and guided a lot of people on this forum over the years with no obligation on their part. But not replying to people that have spent time looking at this for you is a little off. Their time is also valuable. I'm not annoyed, but it raises peoples eyebrows. I'm just being straight with you.

Without intending to offend anyone who may have advised on this job. I can't go back and read every post to check but things i have noted.

You are using the wrong material. It's expensive by comparison and is not that hard. It cut's fine but it wont help you using tooling plate on this job plus some of it has Anodising problems that you mentioned about some are ok and designed for anodising but you need need to make sure. I don't know why you have chosen tooling plate but you choose the right material for the job not the right material for the machine. The job dictates.

The general process you are using is errrrrrr wrong and long winded. I also have suspicions more is wrong in the background that you have not posted here, especially with the cam side. I appreciate you are restricted by the machine but this again comes down to the time Vs money factor. If you saw your job on a machining center you would wonder why you have been wasting your time and you would see the scale of why you are struggling with this job. 4 tons v what hmm 20 kilos of machine? It's chalk and cheese. Kind of hmm 10 seconds to face a 5 mm cut of a, ally block 3 inches wide and 4 long if that, as a simple and crude example. The difference is, you tell the machine what to do with the part as where your machine is telling you what you can do to the part.

Sorry it's long winded but its observation of the is entire thread being as i have not posted in it so far.

I hope you can at least find a few things that are helpful and sheds a bit of light on things for you.

All the best

JOGARA
28-11-2017, 03:19 PM
If you are having these kind of problems now I really dread to think whats coming.

I thought your problem was the cutter being pushed back in the collet not being pulled out? Maybe i need to read back and check that out again. The ramp is fine if anything its to shallow cutters need and want to be worked, sadly you cant do this on a machine like you have. It's just not up to it.

The collet/Nut cutter slippage problem you have. Something is wrong somewhere. These ER systems, although not the best in engineering terms are perfectly adequate for their purpose. Either the collet is out, the spindle taper is out the shank on the cutter tapered. Something is wrong somewhere. It could be you and just lack of knowledge and experience I cant say for definite because i'm not there to see or check whats going on. You are using baby cutters which generate little load and there is no way you need a ball nut for what you are doing. Tightened correctly all should be fine. I cut far in excess of what you are doing by multiple times with ER systems as i have done for years with little issue if ever. It could be a combination of things going on, without someone being there who's knows their stuff its hard to quantify. Also no you should not rough up the cutter or collet or anything for that matter you will solve nothing but will cost your self new equipment when it's buggered up. Plus all this gear is hardened so only serious animalisation would have any effect to 'roughen up'

Regarding your ramp. This is the bottom line, rigidity is everything and more so trying to use helical strategy's because it strains the machine in all directing that traditional tool paths don't. Rigidity is something you do not have, I'm not surprised it sounds bad. In Engineering terms, if it sound bad, it is bad. It's bad for the machine its bad for the cutter particularly and will give premature excessive tool wear so be prepared to be buying many cutters.

You have to work within the restrictions of the machine you have. A machine like that is not capable of very much hence why you can not do very much.

I did also pm you about your RFQ but like Chaz i also had no reply after you sent models that were in a usable format. It was only after mailing you i realised this thread existed which did throw another light on the RFQ and why i had no reply most likely. After seeing this thread it's obvious by first choice you want to try to tackle this job on your own and after buying a machine. No one can blame you for that and i admire anyone that has a go. After reading this whole thread through I do kind of think you went in the wrong direction for what you want to do, the quantities particularly is going to be hard on a time vs money factor unless you have zero value of your time and you physically have the time to be spending so long on each part, plus the times scales you quoted per part are very long indeed. Without proper coolant systems and a tool changer on a machine and one that as the ability to actually cut properly, I think you are really up against it in a big way.

I did offer to give you a run through of your parts on the phone via my pm and explain how you could help yourself a lot with the designs and other details with no obligation on your part. It's pretty much impossible to design parts to be economically manufactured without having a good machine shop grounding. This is what i was offering you FOC with no obligation. I have helped and guided a lot of people on this forum over the years with no obligation on their part. But not replying to people that have spent time looking at this for you is a little off. Their time is also valuable. I'm not annoyed, but it raises peoples eyebrows. I'm just being straight with you.

Without intending to offend anyone who may have advised on this job. I can't go back and read every post to check but things i have noted.

You are using the wrong material. It's expensive by comparison and is not that hard. It cut's fine but it wont help you using tooling plate on this job plus some of it has Anodising problems that you mentioned about some are ok and designed for anodising but you need need to make sure. I don't know why you have chosen tooling plate but you choose the right material for the job not the right material for the machine. The job dictates.

The general process you are using is errrrrrr wrong and long winded. I also have suspicions more is wrong in the background that you have not posted here, especially with the cam side. I appreciate you are restricted by the machine but this again comes down to the time Vs money factor. If you saw your job on a machining center you would wonder why you have been wasting your time and you would see the scale of why you are struggling with this job. 4 tons v what hmm 20 kilos of machine? It's chalk and cheese. Kind of hmm 10 seconds to face a 5 mm cut of a, ally block 3 inches wide and 4 long if that, as a simple and crude example. The difference is, you tell the machine what to do with the part as where your machine is telling you what you can do to the part.

Sorry it's long winded but its observation of the is entire thread being as i have not posted in it so far.

I hope you can at least find a few things that are helpful and sheds a bit of light on things for you.

All the best


Hi Spluppit

Thanks for the reply and sorry for not replying to your quote. I thought I got back to everyone but must have missed out on a few.
To be honest it has been a bad couple weeks, I am a few months behind on this project, moving house next week and my dog has been ill. So this has all been stressing me out.

The bit is being pulled out. Resulting it it cutting too much on the Z axis. My 12mm depth is resulting in 12.6-13mm
Should I try and increase the ramp speed a bit and see if that improves things? I think I am taking everything too general which has resulted in poor performance. That being said, some of the parts I have had out of it have been great.

Predrilling a hole for each case is my best bet then for the rigidity problem?

Again sorry for not replying. Just not running on all cylinders the past couple weeks.

I picked the eco cast on recommendation of it being simple and easy to cut on the machine as well as having decent surfaces that I could use for product surface finish. I have not had a problem with the anodising. Other than my fuckup eary on the EcoCast has taken anodising well. What should I be using on this machine?

I understand a proper machine will joblot all 160 cases in a day or two but I didn't have the money for it.
I was quoted before I joined here around £60 per case. I felt that I could buy a machine and learn enough to make them. It is why I designed the case to be really simple though obviously it has not been as smooth and as fast as I would have liked.

Overall the parts I have had from the machine have been fine. It is just this last issue really that is holding us back.
https://s17.postimg.org/4hp400lb3/IMG_20171027_011201123_HDR.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/f4ix5fe0v/IMG_20171027_162936926_HDR.jpg

I have been advised to lower my RPM and improve the coolant so tomorrow I will get a chance to try that out and see if that fixes the problem.
If not, idk.

Thanks for all the info, I understand it is hard to work out what is wrong when you are not in front of the machine and having some idiot on the other side trying to explain what is going on.

Jack,

m_c
28-11-2017, 05:59 PM
For coolant, unless you can get good flood coolant, the next best option is air with a bit lubricant.

The key thing with nearly all machining, is to get chips away from the cutter. Getting chips away is even more critical with aluminium, as it can be very prone to chips welding to the cutter, which is never good and often fatal for the part, cutter of both.

I managed for a good few months machining aluminium with just WD40 and compressed air. I'd set the machine running, spray a bit WD40 on, hit cycle start, then wander back every couple minutes and blow chips of the part, and a little bit extra WD40 if it looked like things were getting too dry. I only used enough WD40 to give a light coating on the part/cutter to help stop chips sticking. If I knew there was a critical cut coming up I.e. spiral in, or deep slot, I'd stay and hold the air on the cutter to ensure no chips built up, and add in a bit extra WD40.
The WD40 does make the chips clump together more and a bit harder to blow away, but the trade off was they were less likely to weld to things.

I eventually made a mister, which removed the need for as much babysitting, but it would still need a bit extra assistance in deeper parts.

Chaz
28-11-2017, 06:31 PM
Hi Spluppit

Thanks for the reply and sorry for not replying to your quote. I thought I got back to everyone but must have missed out on a few.
To be honest it has been a bad couple weeks, I am a few months behind on this project, moving house next week and my dog has been ill. So this has all been stressing me out.

The bit is being pulled out. Resulting it it cutting too much on the Z axis. My 12mm depth is resulting in 12.6-13mm
Should I try and increase the ramp speed a bit and see if that improves things? I think I am taking everything too general which has resulted in poor performance. That being said, some of the parts I have had out of it have been great.

Predrilling a hole for each case is my best bet then for the rigidity problem?

Again sorry for not replying. Just not running on all cylinders the past couple weeks.

I picked the eco cast on recommendation of it being simple and easy to cut on the machine as well as having decent surfaces that I could use for product surface finish. I have not had a problem with the anodising. Other than my fuckup eary on the EcoCast has taken anodising well. What should I be using on this machine?

I understand a proper machine will joblot all 160 cases in a day or two but I didn't have the money for it.
I was quoted before I joined here around £60 per case. I felt that I could buy a machine and learn enough to make them. It is why I designed the case to be really simple though obviously it has not been as smooth and as fast as I would have liked.

Overall the parts I have had from the machine have been fine. It is just this last issue really that is holding us back.
https://s17.postimg.org/4hp400lb3/IMG_20171027_011201123_HDR.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/f4ix5fe0v/IMG_20171027_162936926_HDR.jpg

I have been advised to lower my RPM and improve the coolant so tomorrow I will get a chance to try that out and see if that fixes the problem.
If not, idk.

Thanks for all the info, I understand it is hard to work out what is wrong when you are not in front of the machine and having some idiot on the other side trying to explain what is going on.

Jack,

Please also send me the fixed files (ie Step or Iges from Fusion or the raw F3D) so that I can look at how long it will take the machine these. Can give my 2p worth as well. Free to use / not use the info.

JOGARA
28-11-2017, 08:36 PM
For coolant, unless you can get good flood coolant, the next best option is air with a bit lubricant.

The key thing with nearly all machining, is to get chips away from the cutter. Getting chips away is even more critical with aluminium, as it can be very prone to chips welding to the cutter, which is never good and often fatal for the part, cutter of both.

I managed for a good few months machining aluminium with just WD40 and compressed air. I'd set the machine running, spray a bit WD40 on, hit cycle start, then wander back every couple minutes and blow chips of the part, and a little bit extra WD40 if it looked like things were getting too dry. I only used enough WD40 to give a light coating on the part/cutter to help stop chips sticking. If I knew there was a critical cut coming up I.e. spiral in, or deep slot, I'd stay and hold the air on the cutter to ensure no chips built up, and add in a bit extra WD40.
The WD40 does make the chips clump together more and a bit harder to blow away, but the trade off was they were less likely to weld to things.

I eventually made a mister, which removed the need for as much babysitting, but it would still need a bit extra assistance in deeper parts.

My current system is one of those cheap bendy hoses with air and "mist".
I have pretty decent air going through it with a tiny amount of regular water and have not had any chip welds.

Probably could do with some sort of coolant fluid or additive in the water though to assist.




Please also send me the fixed files (ie Step or Iges from Fusion or the raw F3D) so that I can look at how long it will take the machine these. Can give my 2p worth as well. Free to use / not use the info.


Ill leave this public for now, will take down at a later date http://a360.co/2zPSUYP

Thanks

m_c
28-11-2017, 10:45 PM
My current system is one of those cheap bendy hoses with air and "mist".
I have pretty decent air going through it with a tiny amount of regular water and have not had any chip welds.

Probably could do with some sort of coolant fluid or additive in the water though to assist.


Is the air flow enough to blow the chips well out the way?
Provided it's keeping chips well away from the cutter, then your setup should be fine. Even if you have to give an extra blast occasionally, it sounds like you've got a reasonable setup, and I wouldn't worry.

It might be worth trying some of the misting fluids though. This is what I used to use - http://www.johnnealeltd.co.uk/shopenvirocutse10.html

JOGARA
29-11-2017, 09:48 PM
Is the air flow enough to blow the chips well out the way?
Provided it's keeping chips well away from the cutter, then your setup should be fine. Even if you have to give an extra blast occasionally, it sounds like you've got a reasonable setup, and I wouldn't worry.

It might be worth trying some of the misting fluids though. This is what I used to use - http://www.johnnealeltd.co.uk/shopenvirocutse10.html


Yea the chips fly miles. I found tiny amounts of water and decent air meant that 99% of the chips left my stock area.
The ones left tend to stick along the walls of my part. Not a massive problem as I then go around with my finishing path and I do that dry (only taking off 0.25mm) and that clears whatever is left from me brushing away the majority of leftovers.

That Envirocut SE10 looks good. I like that it is biodegradable. I am using a tiny amount of coolant as it is so 1L should do me for a while?

JOGARA
29-11-2017, 10:57 PM
Just tested the machine with 1mm DOC at 6000 RPM and it was fine.
Pushed the machine with a face operation of 100% WOC and only when at 720mm feed it made a bit of noise.

So going to try it on part. Obviously not 100% width.

Will quickly try a couple helix with the new speed and faster plunge.

JOGARA
30-11-2017, 02:18 AM
Just ran the operation and it thinks the top of the stock is +1.7mm

No idea what to do...

Contacted Omiocnc so lets see what they think.

spluppit
01-12-2017, 02:05 PM
Re: Finishing and part quality.

First of all please do not think i am purposely going out of my way to make you feel bad or I'm being difficult. You have come a long way since the beginning of your post to actually making parts from knowing very little. You should be proud of that and well done. I have tried to gently explain you are a world away still. It really is not as simple as people think at times as buying a machine and making parts. I did a 5 year Toolmaking apprenticeship and 4 years at college and before that i was still on the shop floor for a year before they were satisfied to put me through the apprenticeship etc. Then you are still not considered accomplished that takes another 5 to 10 years. On top of that i have always been in machine shops and workshops since i was a child and had a natural aptitude for the Job. I hope you can try to see this as more a education rather than criticism.

I do not agree that your parts are fine. Without seeing any images of your finished parts, I said you were using the wrong material and the evidence is those images you posted. I appreciate images can be a little deceiving online but i have seen and taken enough to hopefully know what im looking at. Yes your parts are anodised but that is a very broad use of the term, in the fact they have been dumped in a sulfuric tank with some current and then dyed. But that's as far as it goes. The finish is flat and and one one those images shows very blotchy uneven finish and a lot of surface marks. Cosmetics is as important as the function of the item in today's word if its a product people will see and use. (more so if they are paying decent money for it) I did read about you tumbling or vibratory finishing these parts. There are a ton of variables with finishing which i cant go into here but I feel its the wrong move if you understand the anodising process. (Don't slate me for saying this guys, as i said i cant go into full detail) A quick debur if necessary fine but.. the rest hmmmm. By rights parts like this you anodise off the machine. This is 2017.

Also finding a good anodiser is very hard indeed. I know from loosing thousands of pound to idiot ones out there in past years. With this in mind there could be an element of error from the anodiser as i said good ones are very hard to find. I cant tell categorically because I'm not there to see in the flesh. If your anodiser has not mentioned about the quality of the finish on the part or his anodising don't use him is my advice.

You have taken the path of least resistance (on advice granted) to get to your end goal, sadly it does not work like that in manufacturing. I mean this is the politest way but i get the feeling some of the problems is you don't actually know what you are looking at yourself to decide if its acceptable or not.

The result of the part is only as good as the work gone into it.

These images taken last night are literally bits laying about the workshop and these are scrap for various reasons, finishing being one of them. A lot of these parts are very old indeed most of the anodised parts are anything from a year old to up to 25 years old or so. The bare Aluminum parts are straight off the machine, you can anodise straight off this, no finishing and you will get a beautiful satin jet black uniform finish, of course requiring an anodiser who is not a banana eating Orangutan. I could not find a lot of black anodising laying about, but there are few bits and i'm sure you can see the difference.

I will reply to your other post to me in more detail when i get a chance. Also to mention about the cost you were given of £60.00. If you read my pm you will see i explained that you are making the part expensive, the models are not compete for a start, plus you have now altered one. I said about having a chat on the phone to reduce this cost because i expect typically, the tight rads that are probably not necessary plus many other things that can help. This is why you got a very inflated quote. They looked at the part and glazed over, exactly as i did but i offered help, to help you reduce the cost. They should be no where near the price you have been quoted with a little work to make it easier on the manufacturing. You would pick the parts up tapped holes as well.

Its a package deal, knowing how to machine to design economically to machine economically. You cant learn that in 10 months or so.


2328723288232892329023291

spluppit
01-12-2017, 02:51 PM
Because you are using 6mm cutters from memory, I filmed a very simple job I did a day ago producing some slots. 3 Flute High Helix 6 mm Dim 6.7 wide slot, the difference is this cutter is not a ripper as you are using for roughing out, It would be considerably faster with a ripper but for this job it worked as it was.

One of the examples of this is how important coolant is and you can see what we do in industry, especially in closed slots like this where there isnt a lot of room for swarf

It's not fast and the speeds can be ramped up a fair bit if needs be, but it was adequate for the job in had without any risks. The time i had debured the previous part the one on the machine is done, so speed isnt always everything. My machine is not massively fast as its a solid way machine but that does have advantages also.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT6XYkOYJHwhttp://


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT6XYkOYJHw

JOGARA
04-12-2017, 06:18 AM
https://s17.postimg.org/hioc02ci7/IMG_20171204_051007262.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/9pxo836iz/)

https://s17.postimg.org/541jzqspr/IMG_20171204_051008808.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/3ozzb0rmj/)

https://s17.postimg.org/7y4pd7abj/IMG_20171204_051320248.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/mhbuem3gb/)

https://s17.postimg.org/bhqn305bj/IMG_20171204_051329842.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/541jzr0ff/)


Slippage...

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAYBAAAAJDFmOGQyYzdkLTg1NTQtNDE4Ny1iMj E1LWRkYjI4MjViYjQ4YQ.jpg

Snapper
04-12-2017, 10:54 AM
Just a note on the 8mm drill bit these spindles really don't like spinning slow enough and the framework isn't strong enough you will dull bits faster than you can blink. 6.5mm is ok for predrilling.