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charlieuk
09-03-2017, 10:52 PM
So I'm in aus at the moment and for the past few mouths I have been trying to help a friend get his nice cut 600 x 900 router set up and understand how it all works properly however this thing is now starting to drive me insane!

First off the machine runs nc studio which is about as basic as it gets to the point were its frustrating as you cant do half the things you would like and on top of that there is very little support out there.

then things like the vfd which I'm having issues with as it doesn't seam set up properly as I can only get 9000 rpm out of it.

then things falling apart, last night two lock nuts fell off the end of the ball screw and proceeded to jam the hole axis in aware as it was under a cover, the nuts had no form of lock tight on them what so ever.




Then again last night I went to mill the bed level with a 25mm bit and found that the z axis wasn't vertical (in the side to side plane) it was leaving a slanted cut on the bed width ways running down the length as it went. so I took the spindle mount of to see if it could be adjusted and found the holes and counter bores that were there looked like they were done free hand by a blind guy. The centres of the main holes were about 5mm of there target that they had scored on to the mount and then the counter bores for the head of the bolts were not even vaguely close to being centred with the smaller holes and they had just been done with a normal drill bit as you could see the taper at the bottom still! so a half hours work with the dremel to try and sort the counter bores I got to what I thought was the z axis vertical.

However

I then re levelled the bed and for the first part it came out great however then over the last 1/3 of the table the steps slowly came back but how! we re levelled the table again and exactly the same happened!


if it was the rails that were bent it should still be smooth even if not flat, how can one side be ok then go out on the other side it doesn't seam to make sense

sorry I haven't provided any pictures I will get a few when I go to the work shop today.

A_Camera
10-03-2017, 02:56 PM
Difficult to help without more information and specific questions, but perhaps it was not help you were looking for, just wanted to express your frustration. Well, I feel your pain and feel sorry for you.

Regarding the spindle, I remember having seen something similar on CNC Zone and that issue as far as I remember was solved by Mactec4, so I suggest you look up that conversation. I can't give you a direct link, since I don't remember exactly, but if you can't find it you can always ask Mactec for help.

I hope you get it solved.

Steel
10-03-2017, 07:15 PM
I then re leveled the bed and for the first part it came out great however then over the last 1/3 of the table the steps slowly came back but how! we re levelled the table again and exactly the same happened!


if it was the rails that were bent it should still be smooth even if not flat, how can one side be ok then go out on the other side it doesn't seam to make sense



Check your rails to see how strait they are and from the info i got the bed is made from pvc so it may be warped.

charlieuk
10-03-2017, 09:58 PM
Cheers yes a lot of frustration, it shows its never worth going for the cheap China option.

I have spoken to the chap on CNC zone but not been able to sort it I'm now lead to believe that the vfd may already Maxed out.

Had more issues yesterday doing very odd stuff!

The bed is aluminum with a spoil board on top. The rails on the y axis are supported round rails, we havnt yet been able to measure them but what is odd is that if the rail were bent you would elect the table to be smooth and follow that curve rather than being smooth fort the first half and then havnt angled cuts for the second, sorry I forgot to take a picture of the fault will do so next time.

Boyan Silyavski
12-03-2017, 05:39 PM
Many parts are cast, so thats why the holes are off centre.

These Chinese things need urgent controller change for sth better. As that is the very nest of problems on any machine, the unstable controller.

Spindles and VFd normally are Not a problem. Most VFDs have a Voltage input adjustment so it make regulating RPM very easy. All must be properly grounded also or you will never get stable RPMs

Obviously all should be properly aligned and centered as i wouldn't trust a cheap machine has that right. meanwhile Locktite on all possible parts so to avoid future problems.

Start with posting model of VFD here, i or others may help.

charlieuk
12-03-2017, 09:29 PM
I would totally agree however its not my machine so hard to do to much. There is a lot I would do to it, add limit switches, replace the board and change to Mach 3 from nc studio, change the z axis and there are no barring blocks on the ball screw! Etc ect

How hard is it to change the board? at the moment I think it will only allow us to use nc studio so changing it would probably solve multiple problems I expect! but this sort of thing is not my strong point.

The pic of the motor mount plate is bellow not sure if it was cad or not but you can see how shocking the holes are and no its not the camera angle making it look worse it was that bad!

The vfd is hl3000-25-t I have a manual I was given I will add the link. A chap on cnc zone has been trying to help but no luck yet, I'm not sure its us doing something wrong or the setting at the moment we have tried all sorts.


https://get.google.com/albumarchive/116772078436473853844/album/AF1QipPdhlUdSqF43kFflIaOAD6JaFslEh1HftK6nvSV/AF1QipOoiM7BwT7HGtXPNJ9Z3Dec7_5GUjQnN2_s6Odx

Boyan Silyavski
12-03-2017, 10:06 PM
I remember now, the other thread about the manual.

So now is MODBUS connected? Bahh, then thats the problem, combine shady BOB and connect it using Modbus and chinglish software and manual and....

For me is a no brainer. DDCSV1 controller for 150 euro, no Mach# or 4 PCs etc., connect to VFD , via analogue voltage control and voilaaaa.

charlieuk
12-03-2017, 10:25 PM
yes its that one! sorry I'm not 100% sure eactly what Modbus is/does. I will try take a few more pics of the wiring when I'm next there.

A_Camera
12-03-2017, 10:43 PM
I would totally agree however its not my machine so hard to do to much. There is a lot I would do to it, add limit switches, replace the board and change to Mach 3 from nc studio, change the z axis and there are no barring blocks on the ball screw! Etc ect

How hard is it to change the board? at the moment I think it will only allow us to use nc studio so changing it would probably solve multiple problems I expect! but this sort of thing is not my strong point.

The pic of the motor mount plate is bellow not sure if it was cad or not but you can see how shocking the holes are and no its not the camera angle making it look worse it was that bad!

The vfd is hl3000-25-t I have a manual I was given I will add the link. A chap on cnc zone has been trying to help but no luck yet, I'm not sure its us doing something wrong or the setting at the moment we have tried all sorts.


https://get.google.com/albumarchive/116772078436473853844/album/AF1QipPdhlUdSqF43kFflIaOAD6JaFslEh1HftK6nvSV/AF1QipOoiM7BwT7HGtXPNJ9Z3Dec7_5GUjQnN2_s6Odx

Don't start changing anything without knowing that it must be changed and that it solves the problems. It may however help if you'd install a trial version of Mach3 and run that as well. Are you using Modbus to set the set the spindle speed? Are you sure that VFD is a real Modbus capable VFD? Most cheap Chinese VFD are NOT real Modbus. The manual pages are just lousy scanned picture, not pdf, so you must read every word, can not search. It also seems incomplete because the communication is not described. So, if you run Modbus I would suggest to go back to basic digital control, in fact, start with manual control from the control panel. Take the next step when that works.

Boyan Silyavski
12-03-2017, 10:44 PM
Could that be that spindle is only controlled by the buttons? Then thats easy, i can look at manual and tell you the things that has to be changed from default to what values. But the Rj grey cable where it goes? The telephone like cable? Thats the Modbus. But in manual i dont see modbus control. Where goes that grey flat cable???

charlieuk
13-03-2017, 01:07 AM
you can control the spindle from nc studio on the pc however as soon as your raise the spindle speed over 10000 that is when it cuts out, it strats back up as soon as you go back down.

I will take a look were the grey cable goes when I'm next at the machine.

If you could tell me what the values should be for each of the program setting that would be great! the setting the chap on cnc zone unfortunately did not help. the spindle is 220v 6A and we are on 240v mains power here in Australia.

many thanks

JAZZCNC
13-03-2017, 07:17 PM
Can't help on the VFD front other than to say try find a proper manual or swap it out for decent one. Don't see any reason or advantage for using Modbus in DIY enviroment so I'd avoid this if possbile.

On the Rails and bed/steps then this sounds very much like the frame or gantry is twisted. It's affectively rotating the tool on it's axis as it moves along the twisted surface rails are mounted on.

A_Camera
13-03-2017, 08:08 PM
Can't help on the VFD front other than to say try find a proper manual or swap it out for decent one.

I agree


Don't see any reason or advantage for using Modbus in DIY enviroment so I'd avoid this if possbile.
Why not? It has only advantages and no disadvantages. Of course, it requires some knowledge about it, but it isn't as simple as "avoid it if you are a DIY user". I think the biggest problem is when people try to do or use something they don't understand, in that case yes, 0-10V is easier because that can be measured and easily see how it is working. However, Modbus is not magic, very simple in fact.

But... many cheap VFDs don't have Modbus at all, just some fake serial protocol or implemented Modbus wrongly, like the HY. That's why it needs a plugin and can't be controlled via Mach3 brains or UCCNC Modbus plugin.

JAZZCNC
13-03-2017, 09:21 PM
Why not? It has only advantages and no disadvantages.

Yes If you know how to speak Modbus and the Modbus is implemented correctly at both ends. I agree if more advanced speed control and monitoring is required then Modbus is great tool and not rocket science to learn. However The good old KISS method is all that's needed for simple speed control at DIY level so why complicate matters when not needed.?

charlieuk
13-03-2017, 09:48 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if it is twisted as like some one said it is mostly cast, Its defiantly not something I would purchase and shows the need to have good reliable electronics. If it was mine it would be in bits already and replace a lot of it or start again but its not and I'm just trying to help as much as I can.

we have been in contact with the supplier however the only manual we can get for the inverter in in Chinese, were that English scanned copy came from I have no idea and I have spend a good few hours searching and emailing around.

We have had anouther problem come up also now with the z axis going straight up to the top and hitting the home/limit switch as soon as you start any file, even ones that we have run before and this problem happened over night between turning it off and restarting it the next day so think the vfd may be the least of our worries.

JAZZCNC
13-03-2017, 10:10 PM
This is the down side to taking the Chinese route.. . . It's lottery, one with lot more losers than winners.!!! . . . . The mechanicals can be tweaked and sorted to some degree but the electronics are junk in which case best starting again if want complete peace of mind/reliabilty.

Like the Old saying "can't make silk purse out of sows Ear" so advise friend not to try. Bite the bullet and re-fit with decent electronics.

A_Camera
14-03-2017, 07:59 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if it is twisted as like some one said it is mostly cast, Its defiantly not something I would purchase and shows the need to have good reliable electronics. If it was mine it would be in bits already and replace a lot of it or start again but its not and I'm just trying to help as much as I can.

we have been in contact with the supplier however the only manual we can get for the inverter in in Chinese, were that English scanned copy came from I have no idea and I have spend a good few hours searching and emailing around.

If I were you (or the owner) I would take my losses and go elsewhere. Buy a Hitachi or Bosch, Allen Bradley, Schneider Electric or some other REAL brand. You have wasted so much time on this that it is unbelievable. If I were the buyer of that crap I would have complained, and claimed my money back or some serious compensation. Sending a manual in Chinese is totally unacceptable and a very arrogant gesture, it means that the supplier/manufacturer is totally unreliable and is an idiot. A new VFD is not the end of the world, I paid less than 200 including delivery from UK to Sweden and after reading all the horror stories about cheap VFDs I certainly don't regret that decision and would do that again.

I am sorry that I can't help you out with Chinese, perhaps there are some forum members who can, though I think that the likelihood of finding one is higher on CNC Zone. Did you try Google translate? It may take time to produce something readable, but it may not be impossible.



We have had anouther problem come up also now with the z axis going straight up to the top and hitting the home/limit switch as soon as you start any file, even ones that we have run before and this problem happened over night between turning it off and restarting it the next day so think the vfd may be the least of our worries.

This sounds like a problem with the setup or the code. Did you try Mach3? There is a free version which runs 200 (or something like that) lines of code and is fully usable for such tests.

Does the problem only happens when you run code, or also when jogging? Can you jog up and down without problems? Is it just one particular code or any code? Is the machine set to use inches and maybe the code is for millimetres?

charlieuk
14-03-2017, 10:32 PM
We were back at the machine last night, for some reasons as fast as the z axis problem came it has for now atleast gone away again. Still no real progress on the spindle but have managed to get in contact with a China man who is trying to find some info.

The grey cable in the vfd is just the cable to the second screen on the outside of the metal box.

The bed level thing still doesn't make sense to me, if it was twisted you would expect it to be out diagonally not even down the axis right? Not sure how well the pic shows it but it goes from smooth on the right to bumpy on the left but the bumps are even all the way down. Something is out but what.

Boyan Silyavski
14-03-2017, 11:21 PM
Ok. The spindle and the VFD.

So you have GDZ or similar 230V Spindle 3 phase?? right capable of 24k rpm????? + 230V 2 phase VFD


You have just a couple of buttons connected. I can not see from here which is which so you have to trace them and program them again, after you finish programming the spindle.

Ok, step by step:

-PR133 1 restore factory settings

-PR000 4

-PR001 4 / dont forget later to check buttons if connected properly

-PR003 1 / you will never need reverse run

-PR008 1

-PR027 220

-PR29 400

-PR033 400 / that possibly is not set right at the moment

-PR038 400

-PR039 0 / so motor works from 0 to 24k rpm, obviously no much torque when less than 3k rpm/

-PR040 10 / 3-5 is also ok for that motor, but 10sec to be on the safe side/

-PR104 to PR111 - check if you buttons are properly programmed, / start stop etc. You don tneed reverse, so use it for sth else/


So thats it. It should work ok now.

charlieuk
15-03-2017, 12:27 AM
cheers many thanks will try that next time I am up there!. the only things buttons on the box are a power switch, kill button and a second vfd panel.

many thanks

charlieuk
15-03-2017, 07:31 AM
I may be slowly convincing him to replace some of the electronic components at some point. however I'm not to sure what is actually needed as I didn't do much on my own cnc. From what I gather the stuff that is in there wont run on mach 3 at the moment and will only work with nc studio that it came with, would that be correct?

I found this video on you tube but not sure exactly how correct it is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW0E-0B5SB4

What would be the best plan of action to try and make the machine a little more reliable without spending too much and barring in mind we are in Australia so getting stuff here is a lot harder/more expensive than it is in the uk.

many thanks

Boyan Silyavski
15-03-2017, 04:22 PM
In reality ordered money wise :

A cheap chinese controller/ dont do that/

offline DDCSV1 controller, i use that and am pretty happy. No mach3, no crap. Not good for specific purposes like touch probing and similar, that could be done with mach3. But for normal machine is more than enough. I mean probing an object, not touch probe for finding 0 which is fine.

PMDX controller or CNC4PC or Pokeys57CNC / had problems with that one and my servos, many people are happy/

UCCNC may be better solution from what i hear in forums , at least the controller. The thing is then it need breakout board

Then CSMIO-M

Then over 600$...

In fact on your part in the globe your best bet will be to obtain the above said from CNC4PC maybe.

JAZZCNC
15-03-2017, 09:57 PM
Charlie NC studio is load of rubbish and the Video is spot on best place for it is the bin.!!

The Man you want to speak to in OZ for parts is Peter Homann. Probably the best (easy) solution for that machine given your friends lack of knowledge would be G540 because it'all-in one board with speed control built in and peter is very helpful with advise etc. However that would depend on the Motors to some degree.
https://www.homanndesigns.com/

If want better then I'd look at Separate motion controller and decent drives. Can't stress enough that cutting corners on electrics is the worst thing can do so advise your friend to dig little deeper and do it correctly.
I know Boyan is in love with the cheap Offline controller but IMO they are hardwork and inflexible, certainly not something new comer to CNC is likely to get grips with easily. There's Zero after sales support or Info and very little is known about them compared to other controllers like Mach3, UCCNC, Linux Cnc etc.

charlieuk
16-03-2017, 01:19 AM
Many thanks dean yes from the first time I saw it I knew nc was going to be a headache I cant even figure were you set the mcs! its just hard getting someone to understand that sometimes your better to cut your losses and start a fresh but that's perfect and only 15mins down the road! fantastic we will get in contact!!!!