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volcano
10-05-2017, 12:23 AM
Hi all!
I decided to join this forum as i was inspired by member "blackburn mark" topic here. Genius idea !
I have read this topic completely , and decided to build my own. Purchased some stuff already.
I`m not 100% sure what i buy :smile:. Yours opinion is most welcome.
Motor is:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/N5065-380KV-1665W-High-Efficiency-Brushless-Motor-For-Drones-Multicopter-Skate-Scooter-Skateboard-Set-DIY-Electric/32804445634.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.1.H6wiqB&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10 065_10151_10068_436_10136_10137_10157_10060_10138_ 10155_10062_10156_10154_10056_10055_10054_10059_10 099_10103_10102_10096_10147_10052_10053_10142_1010 7_10050_10051_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_ 10111_10112_10113_10114_10179_10181_10183_10182_10 185_10078_10079_10073_10070_10123,searchweb201603_ 2,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=8e75421c-7b01-4b37-9dc7-491a107466c5&algo_expid=305c85f9-e009-456f-a904-0dd28394a1af-0&algo_pvid=305c85f9-e009-456f-a904-0dd28394a1af
ESC is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mystery-Firedragon-RC-80A-2-6s-ESC-for-helicopter-BEC-UBEC-U-BEC-Brushless-/282034748381?hash=item41aa94bbdd:g:AcYAAOSwHJhXM0P s
Servo tester is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-TECH-Electronic-Speed-Controller-ESC-EK2-0907-Upgraded-Servo-Tester-/142090405063?hash=item21153f84c7:g:fEgAAOSwawpXtp5 U
PSU is: ? yours sugestions!

Cheers!

P.S. I am planing to buy another faster rc outrunner motor for woodworking in future. For now, i`ll be pleased to solve this "combo" :-)

volcano
16-05-2017, 06:33 AM
cmon... it`s been a week since i posted...

njhussey
16-05-2017, 10:02 AM
Hi there! All those components look good to me. The motor is the same size as mine and the other bits look fine. How are you powering the spindle? Any details on how you're doing the body/bearings yet?

I've not been on here much lately and you'll only get people answering you if they know about the topic or feel they can offer advice. Blackburn Mark doesn't come on here much anymore and the other person who used to contribute to that thread, Jonathan, is busy at Uni and doing E bike racing. It's also easy for your post to slip down the "Trending Now" tab which is what most people see, I certainly don't often look in the Forum sub-forums unless I'm looking for something in particular.

Good luck with the build, look forward to seeing your progress :encouragement:

Lee Roberts
16-05-2017, 10:36 AM
Hi Volcano welcome to the forum!

Neil covered everything, Mark is/was available via PM or email if you need to contact him.

Dont forget you also need a straight shank ER11 collet holder:

Straight Shank Collet Chuck Holder CNC Milling Lathe C8 to C20, ER11 to ER25
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Straight-Shank-Collet-Chuck-Holder (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Straight-Shank-Collet-Chuck-Holder-CNC-Milling-Lathe-C8-to-C20-ER11-to-ER25-/291807466412?var=&hash=item43f11493ac:m:mjZVvFEZHvAIAg08mhhhXug)

Your right it is a great idea, I hope to make my own too, first I need to buy a lathe lol

Good luck and dont forget to post your build log for it (we :love_heart: pictures) :thumsup:

Lee

volcano
16-05-2017, 04:28 PM
Hi njhussey,
Thank you for very welcoming replay and advices about my purchased stuff, and this "ghost" subforum. I think i stick here for a little bit. Maybe some other folks will stepp in.
Still, i`m very happy and honored to speak with you. As i said before, i have been read all your words about this topic.Excellent!

Edit! Ha...i was right about sticking here!, Hello Lee Roberts! ( as i write this , you stepped in) Nice and thank you!... and Yes i purchased C8 ER11 L100 + pair of 1/8'' & 1/4'' spring collets.

I need to buy bearings... (thinking about ABs or cheaper roller ones... still don`t know) and to see what to do about PSU.
I was thinking about "pusher combo" (battery+ psu)...
Then again, i saw some HP server ps.I t`s is 12v 100A 12000W! And its cheaper then bottle of vodka :-).
But there is 2 catches. First, shipping to Eu is ~$50+. Second, 12v for my motor is not very fast solution ( 12x380kv=4560) as i understood.
I want of this spindle to be more "universal" for now. So, something at 24v...is what i`ll look.
Please fill free to guide me in good direction !?

As for whole spindle design, the body will be the same as you done it + some alu ribs around body.
Extra electronic will be some hall sensor for rpm + arduino + display and to second "main" arduino( grbl1.1) for pwm control.
I do not have any of the items yet ( except "main" cnc electronics ), as they are somewhere at the road.

That all is in my head only, at the moment. So there will be pics soon as i start working !
What stepped from my head to reality for now is this desktop router.It`s a small but very rigid little thing. It`s about 70 kg total weight,
and it`s a 90% mechanically done. I`ll have some z work ,as you can see, then some paint job, plastic covers, cabling, makeup (maybe not :-) )...
Here are the pic.(sorry my spare phone is terrible, broke the real one week ago :-( , hope i`ll get new one before spindle build starts ).
2166021661
P.S.Sorry for a little off topic, F the router, lets make some SPINDLE!
and..sorry for my a little "better" then google translate, english :-) .

Lee Roberts
16-05-2017, 05:38 PM
P.S.Sorry for a little off topic, F the router, lets make some SPINDLE!
and..sorry for my a little "better" then google translate, english :-) .

Hey your English is 100% better than my slavic language so dont worry !

volcano
16-05-2017, 06:44 PM
Hey your English is 100% better than my slavic language so dont worry !
It`s not so hard to learn slavic as we use a lot of hands/guns in our conversations. :-)
I`m just kidding, people here, are very polite and friendly!
Cheers!
P.S. As this is off topic , again... i`ll edit this (after you read it) into something useful for future spindle build! :-)

Edit: What are you think about my spindle conception ?

volcano
17-05-2017, 06:07 PM
Lee said that ppl here love pictures...
So here they are... :-( , but not happy ones.
216742167521676
So... motor come today. I was very happy, but my happines lasted for about 10 sec, and then pufffff...
:grief::stupid::grief::very_drunk::orange:

volcano
21-05-2017, 11:14 PM
Update:motor returned.
Looking for new one... 500-600kv.
Any suggestions?

njhussey
23-05-2017, 04:32 PM
Update:motor returned.
Looking for new one... 500-600kv.
Any suggestions?

The kV of the motor you need will depend on the Voltage you're going to run it at and what you want to cut.

volcano
23-05-2017, 08:06 PM
Hi, tnx for replay,
I want to cut a little of everything (alu, pom, mdf , some glass etching), (Glass isn`t obligatory - i can do it with my dremel tool @ 20000+ rpm). So... first alu , than acetal and mdf.
I know that`s hard to do with one motor, but hope it isn`t impossible.
Now as i`m not "bound" to previous motor specs, i would like to go "around" and start with psu i`ve got already- 12V30A. Read here that similar psu-s are already used - not for max motor efficiency , but still, for something useful.
I`ve heard that 24v cause hot motor ( and i have 24v@4-6A, only)
So if i go with this cheap psu what can i drive with it?
Some other suggestions?
Cheers!
P.S. They say that i can keep this 270kV. Any use of that thing (if it works- i have not tested it yet as i don`t have esc and servo tester yet)?

njhussey
24-05-2017, 10:55 AM
The problem is with 12V and 270kV you'll only have max 3240 RPM which is from a practical point of view too low for Ali, Plastic and MDF, well technically it's not but the feeds will be very slow. With 24V yes you will have to think about cooling the motor (a couple of 12V PC Radiator fans in series mounted round the motor would do it) if you're doing long runs but you get better speed. I ran my spindle off 2 HP Server PSU's wired together to give 24V (and over 1000 Watts) and it was fine, but I didn't do many long runs and didn't use it in anger as I have a 2.2kW water cooled spindle which is fantastic! If I made one again I'd put water cooling in the bearing holder body as they do start to run hot after a while.

One suggestion is to make the spindle unit (don't over engineer it) and have the motor drive it by belt, if you make an adjustable motor mounting plate (or different ones you can swap over) then you can use different kV motors depending on what you want to cut, so larger lower kV motor for cutting Ali, MDF and Plastic and high kV smaller motor for engraving glass etc...

volcano
26-05-2017, 08:52 PM
Thanks for your advices, as always. This means a lot for me in my future building. One thing is to just read topics... and completely different thing is when someone experienced push you in wright direction :-), as you all know.

It`s done. I order this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/N5055-1450W-400-600-800KV-Sensored-Brushless-Motor-for-Electric-Skate-Scooter-/371952116872?var=&hash=item569a12e488:m:mCDMP7T6XQGNF7nYDNiv2jQ
The 270kv one, will wait for now (if it works, anyway). I`ll build belt driven spindle later, i hope.
For now, i want to build direct drive spindle, to be my first. :-)
I found those bearings:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-708AC-708-High-Speed-Angular-Contact-Spindle-Ball-Bearing-8-22-7mm-/152509743220?hash=item23824a0074:g:KtQAAOSwpP9Y7IH m
Are they good, or to go with cheapest ceramic skate bearings? ...or steel ones?
I asked this because i already gone on cheapest route ( motor, collet shank...esc...).
I need this answer as quick as possible ( because of shipping time )
Hope you`ll understand.
Cheers!

volcano
27-05-2017, 02:13 AM
While waiting for motor,chuck,esc... to arrive, i`m thinking about hooking this spindle to arduino (grbl1.1 with pwm variable spindle controll).
Can this item be "in between" esc and arduino? Check it here please:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pulse-Signal-To-Analog-Voltage-PWM-Converter-For-Servo-Test-Signal-Calibration-/172096332998?hash=item2811bda4c6:g:rqEAAOSw1S9We2s e
If this can be used it would be great. By the way...if anyone here control esc with arduino with grbl, let me know, how, please?

volcano
30-05-2017, 04:39 PM
Where are you folks? I started to feel that i wrote here for myself pleasure only! :tears_of_joy:
Anyway, new build idea...
I think i`ll add 1 of those bearings in spindle nose and then add skate ones after.
21808
I think that this will eliminate axial force on ("next in row") radial skate bearings.

P.S. I must construct proper housing for this combo.
Cheers!

volcano
10-06-2017, 11:49 PM
Hi,
New motor came, but again bad news. Motor came damaged due poor packaging.
21865
Can this be repaired? How to balance it?

Good news is that C8 ER11A 100L Collet Straight Shank Chuck Holder finally arrived,
and it`s good quality. I also ordered dial test indicator to help me in my future spindle build,
and other project... very handy tool.
Cheers!

P.S. This topic is watched (by the counter info) but it`s been a while since no one write here.
Please help me with all my doubts and questions above.
P.P.S. Those bearings from above... can they handle spindle rpm?

Clive S
11-06-2017, 08:33 AM
Hi,
New motor came, but again bad news. Motor came damaged due poor packaging.
21865
Can this be repaired? How to balance it?

Good news is that C8 ER11A 100L Collet Straight Shank Chuck Holder finally arrived,
and it`s good quality. I also ordered dial test indicator to help me in my future spindle build,
and other project... very handy tool.
Cheers!

P.S. This topic is watched (by the counter info) but it`s been a while since no one write here.
Please help me with all my doubts and questions above.
P.P.S. Those bearings from above... can they handle spindle rpm?I read most topics and help where I can but I have never played with this sort of thing in this situation so I am at a loss.

Can you return the motor as it looks shot (no pun intended)? I have no idea if the bearings are suitable, I have used that type but at low speeds. Good luck with the build.

njhussey
11-06-2017, 01:34 PM
Hi,
New motor came, but again bad news. Motor came damaged due poor packaging.
21865
Can this be repaired? How to balance it?

Good news is that C8 ER11A 100L Collet Straight Shank Chuck Holder finally arrived,
and it`s good quality. I also ordered dial test indicator to help me in my future spindle build,
and other project... very handy tool.
Cheers!

P.S. This topic is watched (by the counter info) but it`s been a while since no one write here.
Please help me with all my doubts and questions above.
P.P.S. Those bearings from above... can they handle spindle rpm?
Without doing a google on a bearing site I cant tell you if they're suitable. However whatever bearings you use will need a preload on them to stop them from skidding. The best bearings to use (apart from a double row AC bearing) are magneto (single AC bearings) bearings and preload them with something like bellville washers.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

routercnc
11-06-2017, 06:04 PM
Hi,
New motor came, but again bad news. Motor came damaged due poor packaging.
21865
Can this be repaired? How to balance it?

Good news is that C8 ER11A 100L Collet Straight Shank Chuck Holder finally arrived,
and it`s good quality. I also ordered dial test indicator to help me in my future spindle build,
and other project... very handy tool.
Cheers!

P.S. This topic is watched (by the counter info) but it`s been a while since no one write here.
Please help me with all my doubts and questions above.
P.P.S. Those bearings from above... can they handle spindle rpm?

The reason you don't have many replies is that it's been a while since anyone has posted on building their own spindles from brushless motors.
Most of the regulars on here bought a water cooled Chinese 1.5 or 2.2 kW spindle a long time ago because they work really well and are good value. They are highly recommended.
No-one on here is holding out on you and not answering, we just don't know how to help. Sorry but I've never used Arduino, grbl, etc.

volcano
12-06-2017, 12:11 AM
Can you return the motor as it looks shot (no pun intended)? I have no idea if the bearings are suitable, I have used that type but at low speeds. Good luck with the build.
I`ve got a 2/3 refund without returning it, so it`s my 2nd defective junk motor in collection:nightmare:.
So i`ll try one more time...( i think that you have the same joke about "3rd luck" :stupid:)
I checked few companies for this type of bearings. All of them are low speed indeed, so no go.
Finally, thanks for your wishes.
Cheers!
@ routercnc,
Thanks for your replay and kind words, too.

volcano
12-06-2017, 12:28 AM
... whatever bearings you use will need a preload on them to stop them from skidding. ....preload them with something like bellville washers.
As you already know, i read all yours conversation with blackburn mark an others about preloading when you was building your spindle. But everything is a little confusing to me, as English is not my language. So i draw a sketch in mspaint( 1000 words:thumsup:) to clear things. Simply answer to numbers with tight/loose relations between parts. For example, i think 2 and 3 are tight connections.
Then, please explain "preload". Is that, to tightening a housing cap with housing to press outer bearing ring, or something else?
21874
I think it would be a great help for me and others to see all relations in one place, so thanks in advance.

volcano
17-06-2017, 05:49 PM
Things are start to get moving...
I hook up the motor, everything works.
Motor sound way unbalanced, make huge vibrations in mid range ( @12V ) rpms.
But the dial tester says just a 0.01 runout???
21900
turn motor by ~70 degree left sims to give bigest value....( see sticker on rotor -1st pic)
21901
By the way this is the first time to use this dial test indicator ( just arrived ), so i think that
maybe the tool is not precise, or i`m doing something wrong???

Anyway, next thing is ...to build a tachometer to measure rpms...
Cheers!

njhussey
19-06-2017, 04:20 PM
It's probably not the shaft that's unbalanced but the magnets in the bell, not unusual to have big globs of glue between some magnets and not others. The DTI looks a good one so I'd say you've minimal runout on the shaft.

volcano
19-06-2017, 11:12 PM
Actually the DTI works perfect. I borrow a second (pro one) from a friend and done some comparative test, so mine DTI works great. A very handy tool :-).
Building housing part is at pause for now , because friend who will do it for me ( i do not have lathe...) is overloaded with jobs at the moment.
Because of that, i decided to use my spare time to build a electronics for my future spindle. So far i figured out how to
make an Arduino speed control. This is a only one video i find so far, that closely matches mine idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYFNUQgE26E
Arduino reads rpms from spindle with an optical sensor, and sends pwm output, so actual rpms try to match targeted one ( take a look at the video).
This " pid " control is not designed to work with ours rc outrunner and ESC.
But there is an Arduino servo library and a bunch of tutorials on how to conrtol ESC with Arduino.
So it`ll be most elegant if i manage to mredge this in one project.
When we cut some mat., spindle will try to maintain the rpm, so torque is improved. :-)
Gain will be big (and dirt cheap) with this speed control.

Early phase of experiment (with salvaged hadware) + Arduino...
21909

volcano
14-07-2017, 10:36 PM
Just to say hello! Was on vacation, now i`m back. Meanwhile, all parts arrived. I`ll start building next week.
Cheers!:redface:

volcano
17-07-2017, 04:16 AM
My "S-Pid" controller work continues.
Made new sensor today (paper detection sensor salvaged from some old printer, copier...desoldered from its original pcb and added some resistors...) I done some fine tunings and start measuring. I compared my controller readings with
results measured with my standalone tachometer device. Accuracy is far better then i expected. Check the picture!
22225
P.S. So... finding and building a good sensor is done. Accuracy of reading RPM is checked and accomplished, also. Now i will hook an real rc brushless motor instead of this pc fan.
P.P.S. I am aware that what i wrote is far away from spindle mechanical build, but electronic is also
a part of spindle system i want to build, and that kind of spindle speed control is presented in far more expensive rigs. Please tell me if you think i shouldn`t write about this pid controller here, and/or if you like it? Comments are most welcome.
Cheers!