PDA

View Full Version : NEW MEMBER: Hello, here is my new machine



ravihotwok
14-06-2017, 03:41 PM
Afternoon everyone, my name is Ravi and I am an advanced 3d modeller using Autocad. I have just purchased this machine:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232347290574?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Looking forward to converting some of my 2d and 3d designs into reality, but must admit I haven't a scooby doo how so will be calling on you peeps for guidance and help real soon.

Cheers

Ravi

A_Camera
14-06-2017, 07:37 PM
Good luck. I think you need it. While you are waiting for the machine to arrive, you should order a new spindle motor, and get at least a 400W of the same dimensions. I don't want to put you off, but that 200W motor is just a joke, will not be able to do more than engraving in soft materials.

ravihotwok
15-06-2017, 10:19 AM
Thank you mate, can you recomend one? im trying to find the spec of my current motor, it arrived yesterday with no instructions what so ever

ravihotwok
15-06-2017, 10:23 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-1-5KW-Air-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER11-Mach3-PWM-Inverter-Mill-Grind-POPULAR-/172465201222?hash=item2827ba2046:g:PsEAAOSwurZZIn4 H

anygood?

Lee Roberts
15-06-2017, 01:40 PM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-1-5KW-Air-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER11-Mach3-PWM-Inverter-Mill-Grind-POPULAR-/172465201222?hash=item2827ba2046:g:PsEAAOSwurZZIn4 H

anygood?

Hiya,

Its an upgrade to what your machine will come with that's for sure, the only thing I would consider is that it has an ER11 size collet.

Although thinking about it more and giving the overall strength of such machine consideration, ER11 is probably about the right limit to place on it...

...a machine like this really isn't designed to cope well with any kind of substantial machining.

Bigger Tooling = Bigger Forces

ravihotwok
15-06-2017, 01:45 PM
Cheers lee, this machine is pretty much only going to be used for engraving fibreglass and plastics, not sure how well it will cope with that?

Clive S
15-06-2017, 02:31 PM
The motor you linked to is air cooled and very noisy the water cooled one's are very quiet. You will also need a VFD to power it.

A_Camera
15-06-2017, 02:42 PM
Thank you mate, can you recomend one? im trying to find the spec of my current motor, it arrived yesterday with no instructions what so ever

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500W-100VDC-ER11-chuck-CNC-Spindle-Motor-52mm-Clamps-Speed-governor-CNC-DIY/263016333253?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26 asc%3D43782%26meid%3Dd46a4bc0eaf64b8d8b3663b5391c7 c33%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D23220 1733754

I think this is the best you can fit into your motor holder. I think your 200W motor is 52mm, so this one can be used unmodified. I used a 400W for about two years, it worked well for me, but don't expect miracles. Plastic and PCB or similar soft materials are OK, but anything harder will be difficult.

A_Camera
15-06-2017, 02:45 PM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-1-5KW-Air-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER11-Mach3-PWM-Inverter-Mill-Grind-POPULAR-/172465201222?hash=item2827ba2046:g:PsEAAOSwurZZIn4 H

anygood?

Yes, that's MUCH better. It is the one I am using today, but beware, it needs a VFD and the Z on your machine is not made for this type of heavy and large spindles.

A_Camera
15-06-2017, 02:51 PM
The motor you linked to is air cooled and very noisy the water cooled one's are very quiet. You will also need a VFD to power it.

The one he linked to is not going to work anyway because his machine is just not made for these large spindles. Also, in regard of noise, I must say I disagree that it matters. I have a similar spindle, and while it may be noisier than a water cooled one, it is MUCH quieter than the one he has at the same RPM. I had a similar DC motor like he has and I know this for fact. Also, once the spindle starts cutting the cutting noise is several times more than the spindle noise. Not to mention the vac... :)

So, air cooled vs. water cooled... water cooled wins by miles when you cut air, but when you use it for cutting it makes no real difference at all.

:beer:

ravihotwok
15-06-2017, 03:43 PM
Cheers lads some good info there, hoping to have it connected to a pc this evening, like I say im mainly using it for engraving plastic and fibreglass sheets. What is a vfd? I have seen a few spindles for sale which have some sort of pcb stating mach 3 controlled or something to that description

Desertboy
15-06-2017, 04:19 PM
I just bought a 2.2kw spindle and it arrived today I fitted it into the spindle mount (80mm you would need to buy new spindle mount and modify your machine to fit) and then weighed them both and it weighed 6.5kg's I would think that a 1.5kw would be far too heavy for your machine.

It's making me rethink my gantry and I have a lot chunkier aluminium than yours has in the first place.

I would go with the 500w spindle linked earlier if I were you as it seems more in range what your machine can handle and a drop in replacement.

ravihotwok
15-06-2017, 04:28 PM
cheers desertboy, my head is in the shed now lol not sure which to buy

ravihotwok
15-06-2017, 04:33 PM
is this a good compromise?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-0-8KW-Air-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER11-Milling-Speed-Controller-Engraver-GOOD-/263017760186?hash=item3d3d1485ba:g:QtwAAOSw5cRZMk-X

Desertboy
15-06-2017, 09:19 PM
is this a good compromise?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-0-8KW-Air-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER11-Milling-Speed-Controller-Engraver-GOOD-/263017760186?hash=item3d3d1485ba:g:QtwAAOSw5cRZMk-X

If I were you I would just play with it as is for a week or 2 and see how you get on it will give you a better idea of what you want from it and then make a decision. I've found many many times in my life a rushed purchase as a band aid to a problem just cost you 3 times! 1st time when you buy it, 2nd time a cheap hack to try and fix it, 3rd time you buy the thing you should have in the first place.

ravihotwok
16-06-2017, 08:07 AM
very good advice and above all common sense lol. Just a bit worried ive bought a lemon here, paid 430 delivered for this machine, its only going to be doing light work as I am a composite specialist so it will be engraving plates I have fabricated my self. The material surface is usually pretty soft, but can be abrasive. My colegue managed to get the machine connected up and moving off the arrow keys last night but unable to get the mach 3 to do anything. Going to have another go later today

A_Camera
16-06-2017, 08:47 AM
is this a good compromise?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-0-8KW-Air-Cooled-Spindle-Motor-ER11-Milling-Speed-Controller-Engraver-GOOD-/263017760186?hash=item3d3d1485ba:g:QtwAAOSw5cRZMk-X

You can't buy that one, as I said earlier.

1.) That one is a 65mm diameter and you have a 52mm diameter holder. Your Z is far too weak and small for that one, in my opinion it is not worth the effort of necessary modification.
2.) That spindle requires a VFD, and considering you asked above "what is a VFD?" I think the challenge of making it work will be too much for you. VFD = Variable Frequency Drive. Google for the details you want to know.

Just like I mentioned earlier, I think you should get a DC motor which is more powerful than the 200W which comes with your kit. I linked to a 500W, it is a motor with 52mm diameter and you can just simply replace your existing motor with this one. If the power supply is strong enough you can use the one you have, but if not then you may need to buy a stronger one.

The last option is to do nothing now, just learn how to use your machine, learn what you like and don't like in it and act accordingly. Maybe you are happy with it as it is, maybe you will want to buy or build a completely new one which is more rigid and more powerful. Don't underestimate plastic or fibre glass. Even those benefit from better machines or spindles.

ravihotwok
16-06-2017, 09:47 AM
Cheers A,

wasnt disregarding your advice mate, just was a bit hasty in looking for a solution as I was just a bit worried about this machine being a lemon. I will save the motor you have recommended, Will probably end up getting that but first will learn how to get the pc communicating with the machine and actually working. Is there anywhere I can find out the definition of various cutting tools and their main purposes eg a tool for engraving, a tool for milling etc. Are you all starting to realise just how novice I actually am lol Shoot me now

ravihotwok
16-06-2017, 09:59 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500W-100VDC-ER11-chuck-CNC-Spindle-Motor-52mm-Clamps-Speed-governor-CNC-DIY/263016333253?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26 asc%3D43782%26meid%3Dd46a4bc0eaf64b8d8b3663b5391c7 c33%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D23220 1733754

I think this is the best you can fit into your motor holder. I think your 200W motor is 52mm, so this one can be used unmodified. I used a 400W for about two years, it worked well for me, but don't expect miracles. Plastic and PCB or similar soft materials are OK, but anything harder will be difficult.

Cheers mate, on this motor it says there is a speed governor? do I simply disregard this and wire the motor in as the old motor was?

A_Camera
16-06-2017, 11:51 AM
Cheers mate, on this motor it says there is a speed governor? do I simply disregard this and wire the motor in as the old motor was?

The speed governor is this unit:

21892

You could disregard it and just wire the motor as the present one, but if the power supply, or the controller box you have in your machine is not capable of handling this motor then you will need this box. My guess is that the controller box in your kit not going to be enough, so I think you better off using this box.

BTW, you will not need the spindle holder, so you could try to contact the seller and see if he can send the motor without the spindle holder or you could try to find another motor without the holder. I just posted the link as an example to show what you may use without modification.

A_Camera
16-06-2017, 11:58 AM
Cheers A,

wasnt disregarding your advice mate, just was a bit hasty in looking for a solution as I was just a bit worried about this machine being a lemon. I will save the motor you have recommended, Will probably end up getting that but first will learn how to get the pc communicating with the machine and actually working. Is there anywhere I can find out the definition of various cutting tools and their main purposes eg a tool for engraving, a tool for milling etc. Are you all starting to realise just how novice I actually am lol Shoot me now

Yes, it is a good idea at this stage not to buy anything else, just get the delivered unit up and working. Once it is up and running you will see what else you may need or if this is enough for now or not. I don't think you need to worry about this being a lemon, I think that considering the number of units sold, these are generally good and reliable, good enough to learn a lot by using them, though of course, you can't expect them to be as good as a considerably more expensive units. You must be prepared for some blood, sweat and tears and dirty words but other than that, if you are handy you should not have problems with setting it up.

ravihotwok
16-06-2017, 01:57 PM
Thats made me feel a lot better, I am a composites specialist by trade so pretty hands on, but this is soooo out of my comfort zone lol

Zeeflyboy
16-06-2017, 07:06 PM
I wouldn't bother upgrading it (certainly not yet).

The spindle on there will be fine for light composites and plastics work - my first machine just had a dremel type router and did a perfectly acceptable job cutting composites like fr4 and carbon fibre, plus did a perfectly respectable job on acetal and other plastics. You are obviously just a little limited in material removal rates due to the relatively small bits you can use.

Ultimately you just have to have realistic expectations from a machine that only cost you a few hundred quid and change. I think in terms of value for money for getting up and running with a machine they are usually fine, and a good entry point to get your toes in the water - you can always move up to a more capable (and consequently more expensive!) machine if you decide this is the path you.

hanermo2
17-06-2017, 12:48 AM
As the others said..
buy nothing more for now.

Try it, learn, the sw and jargon and endless stuff related take lots of hours.
It is much better to learn with a cheap kit machine.

Because you see Your errors faster, and ..
broken (tool) bits cost 2-5 vs 500 - 2500 (machine bits), each.

This is like most common sw ...
none of it is logical, rational, well thought out.
Lots of it works "wrong",
sometimes it has errors, like engaging the reverse gear on the hw, because You put on the radio.

But it IS repeatable, simple, and productive, and very efficient.

After You learn to make "widgets" You yourself will know perfectly well;
- what you need to change,
- why, and
- can then look at how much for Your needs/situation

Your goals re:easy materials and easy work, are the easiest there are.

So You are 99% ahead of 99% of people who often want to machine 3d steel pieces of 1m volumetric work area/cube, often in 5 axis.

I was one of those, in 2002.
100k current-value-kit later, commercial industrial cnc training and work later, 17.000+ work hours later, I have a scratch built VMC nearing completion again, version 5, and a 3 axis 1 micron resolution CNC lathe refit, version 3, running sans pretties (tin aka guards, boxes for IO at lathe, energy track cables,..).
15 years, mostly full-time...

Your starter machine is an excellent option.
You learn with it, cheap, and once You can make something, anything, with it, YOU will be evaluate better what YOU want or need to do.
There are no wrong or right answers.

I know and have met customers / hobbyists from all extremes.
ANYONE can make stuff of EXTREME value on very poor machinery.
Handmade firearms or watches are 2 extremes.

Clockmakers/watchmakers and model-engine builders are 2 common examples.

But 99% cannot make money at it, unless You are at some extreme of skill/sport/brand/capacity most do not have.

A small cheap CNC cannot be profitable, ever, because the cash/investment grows by pwr2/pwr3 vs machine system total cost.

So a e.g. 1000 CNC machine system CAN technically, of course, make parts for widgets YOU invent/control/sell to Your captive market for a profit, yes.
But YOU can get the same parts made for 50-80% less cost, from your friendly local CNC machine shop, using 70k machines.
Who wont know, care, or want to know, what You do, make, sell, or what the parts are for.

My point:
Your competition is NOT what your machines cost/produce/how good they are.
Your competition IS, really, can I get these built cheaper myself or elsewhere.

Mostly, almost no-one can make a rational argument for making parts ..
for testing, prototypes, learning, absolutely.
Or for controlling customer info/data like plaques/serial numbers/engraving/trophys/etc.

Doddy
17-06-2017, 10:15 AM
Just to add to the try-before-you-buy argument:

I similarly "upgraded" a similar sized router (UK Marchant Dice) with stock unsupported rails, and the result with a 800W water cooled spindle was substantial Z deflection towards the bed centre as well as distortion on the X rail under load. (okay, my choice was easy as the original router failed and needed to be replaced)

Understand the sensible limitations of the machine before splashing out on upgrades that won't effectively work.

A_Camera
17-06-2017, 12:12 PM
A small cheap CNC cannot be profitable, ever, because the cash/investment grows by pwr2/pwr3 vs machine system total cost.

That's not really true...

...but you need to make something nobody else makes and have a group interest in buying those products. A small, relatively cheap machine can also be profitable if you know what to make and who to sell to and how. My machine is a good example. Self design, self made, pretty small and not very expensive. Already version one was profitable, that's why I upgraded. But... I sell something people are prepared to buy, and I even have to turn down some offers because it is just a hobby.

hanermo2
17-06-2017, 12:22 PM
I disagree politely ! THAT is not what I said.

I said you as the seller/maker can get the parts made (very much) cheaper elsewhere, and as such it is not *economically productive*/worthwhile to make them with a small, cheap cnc.


That's not really true...

...but you need to make something nobody else makes and have a group interest in buying those products. A small, relatively cheap machine can also be profitable if you know what to make and who to sell to and how. My machine is a good example. Self design, self made, pretty small and not very expensive. Already version one was profitable, that's why I upgraded. But... I sell something people are prepared to buy, and I even have to turn down some offers because it is just a hobby.

Desertboy
17-06-2017, 12:42 PM
At the moment I outsource a cnc contract to another company for a customer I deal with I intend to to take it in house but it's low volume custom parts. It will be very profitable to me if I CNC the parts myself but only because rarely do we make more than 2 of the same item.

My experience has been that setting up costs are high vs production costs so if I was to make 100 of the same item it becomes more profitable to outsource but 10 I should probably do it myself.

Outsourcing has both advantages and disadvantages and not everything is cost, Accuracy, quality of finish, reliability and just sometimes needing to get a rush job done are factors that need to be considered on a job by job basis.

A_Camera
17-06-2017, 02:08 PM
I disagree politely ! THAT is not what I said.

I said you as the seller/maker can get the parts made (very much) cheaper elsewhere, and as such it is not *economically productive*/worthwhile to make them with a small, cheap cnc.

I don't think you disagree, but I think I misunderstood what you meant. I meant using a cheap CNC can be profitable. Of course, MAKING a small CNC aimed at selling AND making profit on the CNC is a different thing.

Making (or buying) a small CNC, buying or making parts to make it, and then use that CNC to make profit is indeed possible. Surely, you can't disagree with that. My hobby is entirely financed, with profit, by making these adapters:

21897

Of course, only the bottom part. The top part is bought on eBay because that requires more complicated process and not just a mill. Never the less, something like this is enough to make a hobby profitable, including making or buying a CNC and all the parts necessary. Of course, the price or costs of the CNC must be kept low, otherwise there will be no profit, your 100k machine is out of the question, that requires very high volume sales and professional use at least 8h/day for 5 days a week. ...unless you have an even better idea for a product which people are ready to pay MUCH more than $100 a piece.

A_Camera
17-06-2017, 02:24 PM
At the moment I outsource a cnc contract to another company for a customer I deal with I intend to to take it in house but it's low volume custom parts. It will be very profitable to me if I CNC the parts myself but only because rarely do we make more than 2 of the same item.

My experience has been that setting up costs are high vs production costs so if I was to make 100 of the same item it becomes more profitable to outsource but 10 I should probably do it myself.

Outsourcing has both advantages and disadvantages and not everything is cost, Accuracy, quality of finish, reliability and just sometimes needing to get a rush job done are factors that need to be considered on a job by job basis.

I agree 100% with that reasoning. This is EXACTLY the reason why I am making these small things. Initially I outsourced, but actually only the first ten with an option of of a 100 more, but after the first ten I realized that it is not possible for me to make profit unless I make those parts, or order 1000 every time, which again was not possible because of the fairly low sales volume and because paying for 1000 is actually quite expensive and risky for me. So, after I sold the first ten and tested the market with them I decided that I will make those on my own. This decision was 100% right and because of that, I could even improve, make small changes and so on. That is NOT possible if you outsource, because every time you change something the maker will charge extra (rightfully) for the extra costs concerning machine setup or tooling changes. People who talk about outsourcing as an ultimate solution doesn't have a clue about what that means. Yes, outsourcing is fine in some cases, but would mean disaster in others. Of course, if I knew I will have a constant flow of orders and would sell hundreds every month then it would be different, but then I'd needed to set up a factory because I alone would not be able to assemble, test, pack and ship them out. So sure, outsourcing has advantages, but it is not for everyone and not for low volume production and sales.

hanermo2
17-06-2017, 04:59 PM
You think Yoy might have the wrong idea about costs and outsourcing, imho, ime.

What takes 10 hours to make 2 pieces with a small cnc, can be done for 30 mins for 10 pieces with a big machine, at 50 or so cost for the 10 pieces, at 100/hr, for the industrial-cnc machinist = jobshop.
Any nr of places can and will make your parts 1-25-10 at a time, really cheap ...

But the skill there in buying your parts cheap is negotiation, cash, understanding *their* business, leveraging *business skills* and *their* industrial manufacturing and *sales/purchasing*, which has nothing at all to do with CNC, machining, et al.

Where you are only ever making 2, or 1, and changing it constantly, is where the private cnc machine shines, especially for low-value items.

Any nr of places will give YOU very low rates for manufacturing stuff in tiny quantities, if and when YOU are a repeat customer with money and a tiny bit of time.
Many places LOVE tiny customers, who will pay up-front, and let their parts be made when the workers/machines are otherwise idle.
Everyone gets 50% off if paying up-front, and accepting 3-5 day turnaround, in general.

My point was about profits and business, not about the technical ability to make stuff on *your* cnc.
Sure You can .. but it is not as profitable, mostly, as outsourcing it.

E.
I spent 3 days making a good ISO30 taper ... one of the hardest things there is.
Because it is a steep taper, one cannot use a bigger boring bar since the small end is really small 17.64 mm, 48.4 mm deep so its a very deep bore - with a 12/16 mm boring bar, chatters like crazy.
For 30 or so cost for a commercial piece, crazy to do the work.
Took 6 tries for a decent result, had to make a custom boring bar, ballasted anti-vibration version.

But it takes 3-5-10 days to get a cheap commercial one.

RESULT:
For 100, you can get 10 pieces, vs 10 hours work on your own for 2 pieces.
You need volumetric size in the machine (to make 10+ at once), rigidity, toolchangers, to make the 10 fast.
10 cost == same as 1 or 2.

For jobshops, material costs are usually near/nil for typical hobbiest type workpieces.
No aligning, probing etc. just mill/turn it out, done.
And for a few pieces, no-one needs to make efficient code. etc, just bang it in by eyeball mark 1, running 1-5 mins in the air wont matter at all.
The 10 bits are still done in under 30 minutes, mostly.

Since the pieces are smallish, and the materials are not inconel etc. (google a 18x30" bar cost - more than a car).



I agree 100% with that reasoning. This is EXACTLY the reason why I am making these small things.

Initially I outsourced, but actually only the first ten with an option of of a 100 more, but after the first ten I realized that it is not possible for me to make profit unless I make those parts, or order 1000 every time, which again was not possible because of the fairly low sales volume and because paying for 1000 is actually quite expensive and risky for me. So, after I sold the first ten and tested the market with them I decided that I will make those on my own. This decision was 100% right and because of that, I could even improve, make small changes and so on. That is NOT possible if you outsource, because every time you change something the maker will charge extra (rightfully) for the extra costs concerning machine setup or tooling changes. People who talk about outsourcing as an ultimate solution doesn't have a clue about what that means. Yes, outsourcing is fine in some cases, but would mean disaster in others. Of course, if I knew I will have a constant flow of orders and would sell hundreds every month then it would be different, but then I'd needed to set up a factory because I alone would not be able to assemble, test, pack and ship them out.

So sure, outsourcing has advantages, but it is not for everyone and not for low volume production and sales.

A_Camera
17-06-2017, 07:18 PM
hanermo2, my feeling is that you argue for the sake of arguing and don't want to see/understand other opinions/experiences.

Believe it or not, I made my homework pretty well and KNOW what I am talking about and why I am doing things the way I am doing them. End of the story, and end of the discussion from my side.

ravihotwok
19-06-2017, 09:46 AM
some good points on this thread, I have already researched my market and demand so it seems very viable as another service to my business, it will also help in mould making as well.