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driftspin
11-08-2017, 07:42 PM
Hi all, this is the first post of my build log.

After reading a lot on this site i made some of the build decisions.


Basically it is a half raised gantry router.
Planning on 15mm alu toolingplate Z-Axis




1st.. size.

- 1500x 800 x 200 mm work area.

2nd materials to be cut.

- Wood and aluminium.

3rd basic building material.

- Steel box section. 120×80×4mm and 80x80x4mm

Router type.

- 4 bearing Chinese WC ER20 2..2kw

VFD ...

-Danfoss FC-51 type.

linear stuff.

- 20mm rail, c7 rolled ballscrew1610 for Y, 1605 for Z, 2010 for X

- 4 x nema 23 3 or 4 NM type

Or maybe 2 nema23 and 1 nema 34...
Is undecided for now.


Tools
-I have no access to mill.
-I have access to old lathe. but no real experience

- Basic hand / power tools.

- Design sw
Solidworks.

Cnc controls

- Eyeballing uccnc300eth

- Digital drivers 68v diy psu


So that is the plan.

I do notice i am refining the plan on the go.



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Nr1madman
11-08-2017, 08:26 PM
Hello!

Sounds awsome :D
Good luck and for ours sake post a lot of pictures..!

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driftspin
11-08-2017, 08:48 PM
Hello!

Sounds awsome :D
Good luck and for ours sake post a lot of pictures..!

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkYes... pictures... ill try to post on every progress..

Actually i started work on a design over a year ago.

1st the plan was to make an adjustable bed.

22521


This over complicated the design.... or weakened it...

now the design is more basic.


22522
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driftspin
11-08-2017, 09:15 PM
Buying steel is not a problem.
Getting 6mtr length box section cut or stored in my shed is..

Shed is just 5.7m X 3.7m



So i orderd the steel box section, and some end plates pre cut, ready to weld up.

A friend of mine works with steel, he is my main supplier for steel related stuff.
We share a hobby 150 Amp migwelder. (Cebora)

It was bought for automotive related welding.

driftspin
11-08-2017, 09:36 PM
This is what the start of my cnc hobby looked like in the back of my car
22523

I spirit levelled the top of a standard used desk for setting up the bed box section.


Dont ask me why i did not start with the legs of the frame.

22524

Ok .... its gonna be bulky...

Tag welding it up

22525

22526


22527

22528

After final welding i found out warping will happen...

Total distortion is now +/- 1.5 mm

1850x1160 mm total size.

I have read on this forum this could happen... But is was still more than i expected.


Epoxy has to solve this problem in a later stage...



More to come.





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Clive S
11-08-2017, 10:57 PM
linear stuff.

- 20mm rail, c7 rolled ballscrew1610 for Y,Z, 2010 for X

- 4 x nema 23 3 or 4 NM type

Or maybe 2 nema23 and 1 nema 34...
Is undecided for now.


I would re think this for me I would use 1610 for X & Y and 1605 for Z

With nema 23 3.1nM

Have a look a Joe's build http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4513-3-Axis-CNC-router?highlight=joeharris

Zeeflyboy
11-08-2017, 11:29 PM
looks nice, I'd just be a little concerned about how you are going to make the rails work on the gantry? That orientation is going to be very tricky to align within the required tolerances on a steel beam. What was your plan in that regard?

driftspin
11-08-2017, 11:29 PM
I would re think this for me I would use 1610 for X & Y and 1605 for Z

With nema 23 3.1nM

Have a look a Joe's build http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4513-3-Axis-CNC-router?highlight=joeharrisHi Clive,

I was playing around with the stepper calculator from this forum...

1605 on Z 1:1 ? or also reducted?


Picking the 2010 over a 1610 on x axis ,1700mm between bearings, is about critical rpm vs speed... looks like i need 2010 to reach up to or over 5 m/min.

What is your opinion on these?

Since i am a beginner i am not sure what the max speed is i would need for cutting and rappids

Some other materials might need faster speeds i am not sure...


2.2kw spindle makes cutting at lower rpm easier combined with a quality vfd.

I am trying to pick the right quality parts to make a versatile machine.

Any help is welcome.

Please share your concerns.

No linear parts or elektronics are bought yet.





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Clive S
12-08-2017, 12:16 AM
Picking the 2010 over a 1610 on x axis ,1700mm between bearings, is about critical rpm vs speed... looks like i need 2010 to reach up to or over 5 m/min.
Yes I agree. Have you decided on one motor or two?

Don't buy any electrics until you have it all drawn up in CAD AM882 or EM806 work well for the drives at 68V

driftspin
12-08-2017, 01:14 PM
looks nice, I'd just be a little concerned about how you are going to make the rails work on the gantry? That orientation is going to be very tricky to align within the required tolerances on a steel beam. What was your plan in that regard?Dear Zeeflyboy,

I hope for a miracle by epoxy[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

First one needs a zero reference for horizontal level.

I think it was Boyan who explained on the forum he made a reference level surface for this on a concrete floor by pouring epoxy.

I will try this way.
I will spirit level and anker bolt my frame to the concrete floor before pourings so nothing can move and use the x poured epoxy rail mounting surface for this.


Pouring the rail mounting surface for X will be done like the example from a forum member see picture.


like the X axis the 4 mounting surfaces on the gantry will be epoxy levelled.

In 2 steps...

Step 1 I will do the 2 gantry X rail carriage mounting surfaces, and bottom Y rail mounting surface pouring, in 1 go. ( gantry upside down )
There will be an epoxy levelling bridge between the 2 carriage mounting surfaces
Similar to x rail pouring setup


So now those 3 surfaces will be in the same plain.

After curing..

Step 2 The gantry can now be flipped to normal position and top Y axis rail mounting surface can be poured..

Placing the gantry in the normal position on the mounting surface of the x rail should give the best possible reference for a level plain.

After pouring Y bottom and top should be in the same plain..

In theory [emoji1] this should work.


I know this will be a critical process.
When this method fails i will redesign and have the gantry (rail) mounting surfaces milled. nothing much changes only a few pounds of steel added.


When milling is needed i will upgrade the gantry box section to 80x120x8 or 10 to have some meat to mill
I do want to avoid **bolting** the gantry sides to the gantry Y-axis.
I prefer welded solid for best rigidity.
But welding solid must be avoided going that route, because of warping.

I have no friends with a mill capable of box section 1200X120x80.

Would a surface grinder work for this purpose?

Any other thoughts?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170812/7db00f58ead70077d6ac096271cf627e.jpg

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Boyan Silyavski
12-08-2017, 01:21 PM
Thats how i did it on the gantry, my first build. gantry was flipped 180 degree and i poured gantry sides and lower beam epoxy. Then flipped and did upper rail. No problem.

But you will need a straight edge and 2 precision squares for later when mounting the rails and so...

driftspin
12-08-2017, 02:00 PM
Yes I agree. Have you decided on one motor or two?

Don't buy any electrics until you have it all drawn up in CAD AM882 or EM806 work well for the drives at 68VDear Clive S,

My design dictates at least 2 idler pullys per ballscrew if i want to go single x axis nema 34 stepper... and have the whole bed space.

Or... i have to limit bed space and cross the bed...There is room in the design to do this though.
And 1 side is up against a wall anyways.

When going single stepper,
i think i would buy a wide stepper pully,
and shift the ballscrews a belt width and use 2 belts, 1 for every ballscrew.

For now a 2 stepper x setup looks more convenient from a mechanical point of view.
2 short belts.
lots of bed space

My Electronic pov is opposit.

For inertia it seems, in my mind, better too.
2 powerful 3+Nm steppers on high voltage digital drivers. Instead of a single bigger 8/12nm nema34. this is just a gut feeling , not based on any sound research.

Not sure what makes a 3, 3,1 or 4 Nm nema 23 stepper best choice.
Just high amps low inductance right?



Any thoughts?

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Clive S
12-08-2017, 04:56 PM
For now a 2 stepper x setup looks more convenient from a mechanical point of view.
2 short belts.
lots of bed space

That's what I use you can run them 1.5:1 or 2:1 I used 3.1Nm but with 1610 screws motors from https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor-Plus/Nema23-3.1Nm/Stepper-Motor-3.1Nm-x-4-60BYGH301B-Nema23
with am882 drives from China

I do have a nema 23 4Nm on my mill but don't see a difference in them

Boyan Silyavski
13-08-2017, 08:24 PM
I would always prefer the mechanical convenience over the electrical...

Zeeflyboy
14-08-2017, 12:27 PM
Dear Zeeflyboy,

I hope for a miracle by epoxy[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

First one needs a zero reference for horizontal level.

I think it was Boyan who explained on the forum he made a reference level surface for this on a concrete floor by pouring epoxy.

I will try this way.
I will spirit level and anker bolt my frame to the concrete floor before pourings so nothing can move and use the x poured epoxy rail mounting surface for this.


Pouring the rail mounting surface for X will be done like the example from a forum member see picture.


like the X axis the 4 mounting surfaces on the gantry will be epoxy levelled.

In 2 steps...

Step 1 I will do the 2 gantry X rail carriage mounting surfaces, and bottom Y rail mounting surface pouring, in 1 go. ( gantry upside down )
There will be an epoxy levelling bridge between the 2 carriage mounting surfaces
Similar to x rail pouring setup


So now those 3 surfaces will be in the same plain.

After curing..

Step 2 The gantry can now be flipped to normal position and top Y axis rail mounting surface can be poured..

Placing the gantry in the normal position on the mounting surface of the x rail should give the best possible reference for a level plain.

After pouring Y bottom and top should be in the same plain..

In theory [emoji1] this should work.


I know this will be a critical process.
When this method fails i will redesign and have the gantry (rail) mounting surfaces milled. nothing much changes only a few pounds of steel added.


When milling is needed i will upgrade the gantry box section to 80x120x8 or 10 to have some meat to mill
I do want to avoid **bolting** the gantry sides to the gantry Y-axis.
I prefer welded solid for best rigidity.
But welding solid must be avoided going that route, because of warping.

I have no friends with a mill capable of box section 1200X120x80.

Would a surface grinder work for this purpose?

Any other thoughts?



Sounds good! Will watch with interest. Good luck!

driftspin
09-09-2017, 01:58 PM
I would always prefer the mechanical convenience over the electrical...Dear Boyan,

Not sure iam really clear what your preference is.

Do you mean use a single motor on 2 belts solution?
Mechanical advantage is :
- Y axis can not get out of alignment easy?
* disadvantage idler pullys

or

use 2 motors and solve alignment in the homing sequence by electronic controls...
- Y axis can be aligned easily that way.
* Some (cheaper) controls dont do gantry squaring sequence.






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driftspin
09-09-2017, 02:06 PM
Ok some progress.

In the summer months the build did not get a lot of attention.

I did manage to get some of the steelwork done.


Did any of you run wiring through the box section?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170909/9b441134855754487abd5c1ad1eeafb6.jpg

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Nickhofen
09-09-2017, 02:47 PM
Aren't you going to put brace at the bed, at the long axis?

Boyan Silyavski
09-09-2017, 03:22 PM
Dear Boyan,

Not sure iam really clear what your preference is.

Do you mean use a single motor on 2 belts solution?
Mechanical advantage is :
- Y axis can not get out of alignment easy?
* disadvantage idler pullys

or

use 2 motors and solve alignment in the homing sequence by electronic controls...
- Y axis can be aligned easily that way.
* Some (cheaper) controls dont do gantry squaring sequence.






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if you are experienced with belts, know how to tighten properly long belt, know how to align all components then go with 1 motor and belt system. If you dont have the space, have a suitable controller board, go with motor each side. At the end is a question of convenience.

driftspin
09-09-2017, 03:58 PM
Aren't you going to put brace at the bed, at the long axis?Frame bracing.

Well no...well not yet.

Span is 2x1650mm span 120x80x4 mm box section....

plenty stiff one would think...

In Theory,

At 400 pounds of moving gantry weight 0.0027 inches vertical deflection would occure ... but the bed would move also. so. well.

At a more realistic 100 pounds 0.00068 inches

This would only be a problem if the workpiece was stiffer than the box section right?


In my design there is no absolute movement between router bit and workpiece when vertical X axis flex would occure. So no accuracy problems there.


By now total weight is 190 kg with no gantry...

I do believe "ringing" might become a problem... the assembly has a +/- 1khz resonance frequency.

I might fill her up with something like sand or epoxy mix concrete or something need to look in to that.


For shaking appart there is something to be said though.

Bracing at the bottom should solve x axis flex.. some of it anyway. It felt plenty stiff  those diagonals are out of the way great.



Y/X direction flex / bracing... yes.. well.. erh there is going to be cabinets installed ..

And maybe a few bits like: compressor airbrush type , vacuum cleaner, dust removal cyclone, cooling for spindle,
electronics cabinet.






X-direction flex bracing
I cannot yet fill the under the bed space with diagonals... yet.

There will be bolt on triangles when stuff like that is sorted.


Y-direction flexbracing

There is a 3mm thick plate 1000mm x 200mm with curved edges between the legs.. bolted with 4xm10 threaded rod to the legs.. plenty long m10 rod +/- 100 mm for building up tension.



Diagonal cross frame flex.

At this time i have prepared 4 m12 screws at the bottom of the legs to level the frame
And help with aligning icw anker bolts to the concrete floor.


When it is level and all legs (set screws) are in contact with the floor.
It feels incredibly stiff.


When now a set screw is set out of alignment by a 1/4 turn (M12) the table is wobbly ... proof of stiffness...

Any thoughts?

I have no good idea what the shaking forces are like in real life.

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Davek0974
11-09-2017, 09:13 AM
I have no good idea what the shaking forces are like in real life.



These depend on the mass of the moving item and your acceleration/deceleration curves.

Don't forget - acceleration/deceleration is king of the hill, its more important than travelling velocity, far more, as it will directly affect the path following ability of the software controller - with these figures too low you will see bad corner rounding etc where the trajectory planner cannot perform the moves in time, the only solution then, if you cant increase accel/decel is to lower the speed, this then gives you issues with cutter burning etc - its a vicious circle but all determined by your acceleration/deceleration curves.

My plasma machine only has a very light gantry - no motor, no cut forces, and it can shake quite badly at times, that has a steel frame too.

Always build as stiff as possible :)

Boyan Silyavski
11-09-2017, 11:42 AM
Yes, as stiff as possible. Thats the way. If you use trochoidal HSM toolpaths /you will :hysterical:/ all will shake very seriously if not stiff and heavy

driftspin
07-10-2017, 10:44 PM
Hi guys,



A little progress update.

First layer of paint two tone black and white.


What do you guys think?


grtz Bert.
22970


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Clive S
07-10-2017, 11:15 PM
Hi guys,



A little progress update.

First layer of paint two tone black and white.


What do you guys think?


grtz Bert.
22970


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Can't see the gantry moving yet. :joker:

driftspin
08-10-2017, 12:01 AM
Can't see the gantry moving yet. :joker:Hi Clive S.


Hahah no, no movement yet.

Progress is slow.

Work related issues use up near all of my time. Well it pays for the bills.


I am still working on the gantry.
I need to get some bracing in, in the gantry uprights. Also i need to finish beefing up the mounting surfaces, some welds need finishing.



When all that is done the big pour is next.


After that a lot of big decisions are to be made.

I am near ready to order the linear parts.

I need advice on ballascrew end machining for pulley's.


Also .. will quality angle bearing bf bk type blocks fixed / float setup do?

Does one gain lots of rigidity by going fixed fixed? is it much more complicated to setup ?

I am now designing based on fixed/float setup.

So maximum speeds vs screw rpm vs pitch vs screw length and diameter are based on fixed float.


Grtz. Bert










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routercnc
08-10-2017, 03:15 PM
Looking good but I would have added another member to the top of the black frame work to support the underside of the white cross members. Not too late to bolt something in and shim or epoxy any gaps.

Fixed float is fine for the screws but I'm thinking of fixed fixed on my long axis (as per Boyans machine) to reduce a slight buzz / vibration when the machine is towards one end. In theory you might worry about heat and expansion but for the amount I use my machine and the speeds etc I think it is a low risk. Not sure yet but might make it with a spring preload . . . Or keep it simple and lock it in place.

driftspin
08-10-2017, 05:58 PM
Looking good but I would have added another member to the top of the black frame work to support the underside of the white cross members. Not too late to bolt something in and shim or epoxy any gaps.

Fixed float is fine for the screws but I'm thinking of fixed fixed on my long axis (as per Boyans machine) to reduce a slight buzz / vibration when the machine is towards one end. In theory you might worry about heat and expansion but for the amount I use my machine and the speeds etc I think it is a low risk. Not sure yet but might make it with a spring preload . . . Or keep it simple and lock it in place.Hi router CNC,


There will be 4 bolt on diagonals from the middle crossmember when electric panel and additional equipment is fitted.

Grtz Bert.



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Boyan Silyavski
11-10-2017, 10:28 PM
At the moment my 3m long ball screws in Fixed/Fixed config are without a glitch. Though as i said somewhere, when i start machining very fast like more than 12m/min then the rotating nuts start to heat and heat the screws. I think the fact that the gantry is ~200kg and moves with such high acceleration plus the speed , helps that. Which is cured by additional greasing prior to that. Otherwise no problems till now.

I think one of the biggest problems when DIYcnc is not locking the bolts with a thread locker. Now i lock any bolt on a machine. Not only the obvious that need that. That is also valid for the shafts and the pulleys. A must do , i would say.

driftspin
13-10-2017, 10:23 PM
At the moment my 3m long ball screws in Fixed/Fixed config are without a glitch. Though as i said somewhere, when i start machining very fast like more than 12m/min then the rotating nuts start to heat and heat the screws. I think the fact that the gantry is ~200kg and moves with such high acceleration plus the speed , helps that. Which is cured by additional greasing prior to that. Otherwise no problems till now.

I think one of the biggest problems when DIYcnc is not locking the bolts with a thread locker. Now i lock any bolt on a machine. Not only the obvious that need that. That is also valid for the shafts and the pulleys. A must do , i would say.Buy locktite, noted :-)

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driftspin
17-10-2017, 07:31 PM
Hi guys,


I am about ready for the big pour.
Planning to do it this week or next.

I plan to put the frame under a tarp with a thermostat controlled heater during curing.
And set it to 25 C.



Now i need some looking over my shoulder before ordering linearcomponents.

I have a quote from Fred.

The shopping list:

Rail.
2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L1830mm Linear rail

2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L1000mm Linear rail

2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L500mm Linear rail

12pcs HIWIN HGH20CA Linear carriage



Ballscrews rolled C7.

End machining fixed float for a pulley

Z-axis
1set C7 RM1610-L350mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*

Y-axis
1set C7 RM1610-L1150mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*


X-axis
2 sets C7 RM2010-L1700mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*

2pcs 1610 Ballnut Housing

2pcs 2010 Ballnut Housing


2 sets bk bf12 1610

2sets bk bf15 2010

Upgrade all of the 4set BK/BF* to Superior bearing type.


Any thoughts?


Grtz Bert




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driftspin
17-10-2017, 07:40 PM
Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Clive S
17-10-2017, 09:27 PM
Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Remember the F length 30mm is in the total length on the screw.

The bolts used are generally cap heads

Boyan Silyavski
17-10-2017, 09:48 PM
Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Din912

driftspin
17-10-2017, 10:14 PM
Remember the F length 30mm is in the total length on the screw.

The bolts used are generally cap headsHi Clive,

Yes, i discussed this with Fred.

He is a patient guy [emoji16] .

I want some spare cm of travel in the Z design... i am not sure i like the height of the z axis though.. I like compact.

I want the extra head room in z ballscrew for MK1a gantry...

what ?!!! NO NO NOO... 🤤🤤🤤


No.. im not sure 80x 120 will do and calculate in a design change to a more beefy gantry ....some day... with more travel...


Well i want at least 200mm +Z travel.. so

Travel + nut + bf bk + F = 30 for pully =
+/- 320 .. so 350 for Z should do.



Grtz Bert



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driftspin
17-10-2017, 10:29 PM
Din912Yes those.. exactly.

But... 8.8 or 12.9

Like your good ol bolts or tougher machine bolt style.

Does one need high tensile strenght?

I will be tapping in the 4mm steel from box section for the rail. all 200 or so off them.

Carriage bolts will have some extra meat to grip on to (4+5 mm) it has less bolts so ... well more doesnt hurt there.

Grtz Bert.

PS
Where does one buy kinda good machine taps for this purpose, not sure what makes an economical machine tap.








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Clive S
18-10-2017, 11:10 AM
Like your good ol bolts or tougher machine bolt style.

Does one need high tensile strenght?
Just standard cap heads black or zinc etc.

Cutwell do good taps.

routercnc
18-10-2017, 12:58 PM
8.8 means tensile strength of ~800 MPa and yield strength of ~80% of this

12.9 means tensile strength of ~12 MPa and yield strength of ~90% of this

So 12.9 will be much stronger than 8.8 but you are usually not interested in that. You are unlikely to create forces high enough to break the bolts on a diy machine. 8.8 MPa is quite a lot !

What you are interested in is the stiffness of the bolts as this tells you how much deflection you will get when machining parts. But this will be similar in both bolt types so 8.8 will be fine. No harm in using 12.9 but they won't give you any benefit.

If you are interested in why it is because the stress/strain curves have the same slope, it is just that the 12.9 bolts will go further along the curve as they are stronger.

If you buy stainless there is a different naming system as stainless does not really yield before it breaks (by comparison) but again there is no diy CNC advantage other than looks nice and won't rust

driftspin
18-10-2017, 10:31 PM
8.8 means tensile strength of ~800 MPa and yield strength of ~80% of this

12.9 means tensile strength of ~12 MPa and yield strength of ~90% of this

So 12.9 will be much stronger than 8.8 but you are usually not interested in that. You are unlikely to create forces high enough to break the bolts on a diy machine. 8.8 MPa is quite a lot !

What you are interested in is the stiffness of the bolts as this tells you how much deflection you will get when machining parts. But this will be similar in both bolt types so 8.8 will be fine. No harm in using 12.9 but they won't give you any benefit.

If you are interested in why it is because the stress/strain curves have the same slope, it is just that the 12.9 bolts will go further along the curve as they are stronger.

If you buy stainless there is a different naming system as stainless does not really yield before it breaks (by comparison) but again there is no diy CNC advantage other than looks nice and won't rustOk guys i'm clearly not into engineering like you all are [emoji16]

Getting there... some day... maybe.

ok welded in braces today..

Now some more degreasing and set up for pouring.


Will post soon.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/29c42b35e0e839f7c838d4072d950fbc.jpg

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Nickhofen
18-10-2017, 10:37 PM
Looks good!

driftspin
28-10-2017, 11:29 PM
Looks good!Update

Last steps welding .

Prepping stuff for pour.

Idea is to use simpel floor board and silicone kit to leak proof..


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/3dcea3882477453dd53bd26c9c2b522b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/675964ca9753a024e909f8322f248f3b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/7471054d957b71df91e1894ba52123cc.jpg

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Nr1madman
29-10-2017, 05:36 AM
Hello!

How wide is the epoxy supposed to be?
Do you know that the sides tend to get raised, usually called meniscus?
I don't know if having the sides angled like that will lessen or make the meniscus worse..
Maybe you know something that we others don't and your solution solves the problem?

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driftspin
29-10-2017, 03:08 PM
Hello!

How wide is the epoxy supposed to be?
Do you know that the sides tend to get raised, usually called meniscus?
I don't know if having the sides angled like that will lessen or make the meniscus worse..
Maybe you know something that we others don't and your solution solves the problem?

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkHi Nr1madman....

More knowledge? No.


The witdh of the profile is about 80 mm.
The witdh at 5 mm epoxy thickness should be about 70mm, plenty of room for some meniscus and enough flat surface left for mounting the rail.


I want to see what te result will be on the bottom of the gantry x mounting surface.


I might decide i want the wide type carriages on x because there is space enough for them there.. miniscus might become a problem there..

Any thoughts?

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Nr1madman
29-10-2017, 05:25 PM
I'm sure you are right about having enough room left. Just concerned that the inwards angled sides will create larger miniscus. It might work the other way also :D

I have been known to be wrong! ;)

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driftspin
31-10-2017, 09:16 PM
I'm sure you are right about having enough room left. Just concerned that the inwards angled sides will create larger miniscus. It might work the other way also :D

I have been known to be wrong! ;)

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkNr1madman.. Ha yes about being wrong... been there done that[emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]



I think you might be right about minicus getting worse when walls lean inward...


Will report on this...


I can still change stuff...
you know what i will.


On the x carriage mounting surface.. this is the spot where extra room is needed...

Grtz..

Bert



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Nr1madman
01-11-2017, 12:58 PM
Nr1madman.. Ha yes about being wrong... been there done that[emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]



I think you might be right about minicus getting worse when walls lean inward...


Will report on this...


I can still change stuff...
you know what i will.


On the x carriage mounting surface.. this is the spot where extra room is needed...

Grtz..

Bert



Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkIf the meniscus should interfere with wide bearings then it's very easy to file the meniscus down. Im just worried that there will be much waste as the epoxy is quite expensive :D

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driftspin
01-11-2017, 08:12 PM
If the meniscus should interfere with wide bearings then it's very easy to file the meniscus down. Im just worried that there will be much waste as the epoxy is quite expensive :D

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalkyes its expensive... some 75 euros for +/- 3kg.. its cheapest i could find with good properties and tropical hardner...

need to put a heater in the shop because of this now [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]

grtz Bert

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driftspin
11-11-2017, 06:24 PM
Ok 1st pouring round.

I prepped 0.5 kg of epoxy.

Mix is 135 vs 365 expoy.


And yes.. in the first round i found out epoxy leaks through everywhere. [emoji16]


Goodthing.. acryl kit can stop epoxy leaks .


I made good use of the leaked epoxy by coating all surfaces of the next round... with a bit of luck i will have no problems there...

The 2nd round will be some 2.0 kg.

last round 0.4 kg.



I have made a decision on the Linear parts bom list today... i will order wide carriages for the x axis.


Fred: i will be ordering soon :-)

Hope to have the parts this year.

Lots of new things to think about!

Do you guys have any clue for how long i need to keep the temperature @20+ C for curing epoxy evenly?


Maybe 4 days or so?

Grtz

Bert.

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Nr1madman
12-11-2017, 10:10 AM
Hmm do you think doing a small pour last will help making it level? I think bigger mass in the pour may help make it flow even.. I would do the 2kg pour last ;)

But you might be right, just an observation!

The curing time will depend on the epoxy used and thickness of the pour.. I was scared so I waited 10 days haha

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driftspin
12-11-2017, 12:44 PM
Hmm do you think doing a small pour last will help making it level? I think bigger mass in the pour may help make it flow even.. I would do the 2kg pour last ;)

But you might be right, just an observation!

The curing time will depend on the epoxy used and thickness of the pour.. I was scared so I waited 10 days haha

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkWell actually... i just poured the x- rail mounting sufaces 2x 320mmx80mm x5mm + the connecting bridge 1000mmx40mmx5mm

Total about 0.5 liters ~ 0.5kg

I have just checked.. temperature is steady at 22 deg C. Epoxy is only just starting to get solid... it is just getting real sticky now. 16hrs after pour.

The leaking epoxy was used the coat the kit seams for the big pour: bottom rail Y surface+ 2x rail x surface and bridge.

i used a small paintbrush to soak the seams and connections

about 5mx80mmx5mm of channel to fill and a 1mx40x5mm to fill.

The flow thickness of epoxy when you just start the pour is about 3 or 4 mm thick.
So yes i agree pour the whole thickness in 1 go.


I have a good feeling about keeping the temperature steady.

In the test pour there was orange skin like surface finish... no sign of that , well not jet.


The big pour i did today : shiny surfaces.

I mixed 1kg first.. then another 0.5kg.

looks like after allowing the epoxy to flow for a few hours i can see the frame straightness is good to within 2mm

Epoxy film thickness varies from +/- 6 to 4 mm

... some leaks not to bad... easy fix.


Now i need to wait a week before i can flip the gantry, clean up, and pour the last surface top y axis rail mounting surface.


Grtz.

Bert.


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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171112/6cbbb650b0036b113ff030d1a96662c7.jpg

Nickhofen
14-11-2017, 08:05 PM
Nice to see that epoxy level goes well,carry on!

Nr1madman
14-11-2017, 08:25 PM
Nice :D

Really looking forwards to seeing your results with leaning sides..

Surface looks good right now!

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driftspin
16-11-2017, 10:49 PM
Nice :D

Really looking forwards to seeing your results with leaning sides..

Surface looks good right now!

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalkoh wow...





Just removed the sides.. the suggestion i read on this forum (Joe H[emoji106]) using a simple packing tape on the sides worked out great. Easy removal of siding and great finish.

Lessons learned:

-My type of epoxy was not delamination proof under 5mm thickness.
Any thickness over 5mm would chip instead of easy peal off.
- Use taped sides, simple packing tape will prevent epoxy binding to sides and will give you great finsh.
- use small kit seam for leak proofing on inside of the sides to steal beam.
- used rich kit seam on the outside.
- use low height sides (20mm above steel is ok) for easy kit application.
- Use extra bracing in tipical H setup bridge.
- check for obvious leaks[emoji4] before pouring.
- acryl kit can stop epoxy leaks on the outside of the siding.
- coat all kit seams with epoxy with a brush to seal up any leaks days before a pour.

- Inward leaning sides have meniscus too.
- not much worse but worse. maybe 7mm instead of 5mm
- Having stable temperature does positively influence surface finish.


ok i have to clean up sides of x axis remove meniscus then i can flip gantry and do the last pour.


Guys, thanx for all the great info accumulated on this forum. I could never have figured out all this stuff by my self.


Grtz..

Bert.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/abac70586b992253bba0d751ad3d6185.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/73962139dc28ae14147c47f24f4b3226.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/28e65030e4b9c0f4bb4c79e53b5c4d1f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/9c38f0c9aa8fec3ddd6a4eaf1c1ca37f.jpg

Nr1madman
17-11-2017, 09:05 AM
Good work :D

Thanks for the reporting, many points made that can help others!

Im a bit envious about the side finish.. packingtape seems like the way to go;)

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driftspin
17-11-2017, 09:09 PM
Good work :D

Thanks for the reporting, many points made that can help others!

Im a bit envious about the side finish.. packingtape seems like the way to go;)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via TapatalkDont envy me. :-)

I only showed the best of the results.

I will finish clean up and do some more pictures later.

All in all i am happy with the results.

MK II will be a hole in one [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]


the acrylkit solution has a downside.

It weakens +/- 3 mm of the sides..
Ill draw up something to explain.


So when i want just epoxy on the sides i need to scrape some 3mm off.
this eliminated meniscus in the process.
And the nice and easy side finish is gone.

Use least possible kit seam.
On the pouring side of the siding that is.
Use rich kit seams on the outside.

Ok both my x axis are 1850mm long, the epoxy varies in thickness from 7mm one end, to 3 mm half way , other end 6mm

Equals 3.5 mm of warp by welding only.
I did not expect that.

1mm out of level by spirit level over 1850mm.. equals 0.5mm / meter error in spirit level... right on spec for expected spirit levelling accuracy.

ok.. looks like i have about 1830mm of flat surface for rail.. need to update BOM list spec for Fred.

Did any of you cut linear rail by angle grinder?




Grtz Bert.








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Nr1madman
17-11-2017, 09:15 PM
I cut down one rail about 20mm.. read first to use a thin cut disc and I didn't have any thin discs at home so I used a dremel kind of tool with 50x1mm disc. Went well :)

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driftspin
22-11-2017, 10:45 PM
Dont envy me. :-)

I only showed the best of the results.

I will finish clean up and do some more pictures later.

All in all i am happy with the results.

MK II will be a hole in one [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]


the acrylkit solution has a downside.

It weakens +/- 3 mm of the sides..
Ill draw up something to explain.


So when i want just epoxy on the sides i need to scrape some 3mm off.
this eliminated meniscus in the process.
And the nice and easy side finish is gone.

Use least possible kit seam.
On the pouring side of the siding that is.
Use rich kit seams on the outside.

Ok both my x axis are 1850mm long, the epoxy varies in thickness from 7mm one end, to 3 mm half way , other end 6mm

Equals 3.5 mm of warp by welding only.
I did not expect that.

1mm out of level by spirit level over 1850mm.. equals 0.5mm / meter error in spirit level... right on spec for expected spirit levelling accuracy.

ok.. looks like i have about 1830mm of flat surface for rail.. need to update BOM list spec for Fred.

Did any of you cut linear rail by angle grinder?




Grtz Bert.








Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalklast pour,

Ok lets try to get it perfect this time.

Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/c1560aae8d19cc55da2647c9e4bfcbb9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/54e457045d08ba72188ed4b6577cede1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/550658e7ee8eb3d5cad78a6167d46ad4.jpg


Update...



last pour is done... in 48 hrs the side come off...


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driftspin
30-11-2017, 08:49 PM
last pour,

Ok lets try to get it perfect this time.

Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/c1560aae8d19cc55da2647c9e4bfcbb9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/54e457045d08ba72188ed4b6577cede1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/550658e7ee8eb3d5cad78a6167d46ad4.jpg


Update...



last pour is done... in 48 hrs the side come off...


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkLast pour results

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/1c5de74c2fcb4b930c5c800aaae16859.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/e0a2137cbc96bf4faac5dba19940bf33.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/6c3d5b5d35f0f90ae61a58570ae4a6ed.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/9e917eefd06533a9c0cc446c0b18ad2d.jpg

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Nr1madman
30-11-2017, 09:02 PM
Looks good ;)

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driftspin
30-11-2017, 10:17 PM
Looks good ;)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via TapatalkYes super happy with it.
Need to do some mesurements to check for obvious F ups ...

Only have some old analogue calipers ...

Need to start buying some quality measurement tools help with aligning the rails.

And i am hoping piano wire can help with aligning...

I have some quality 140cm 8040 profile that can be used with straightening stuff.

Bouyan said one needs a 1000mm straight edge and machinist squares..
He is right i think...

Need to start figuring this out.


So...
I am about to order linear bearing parts.

Final BOM :

Rail**
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1830mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1000mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L500mm*Linear*rail
8pcs*HIWIN*HGH20CA*Linear*carriage
4pcs*HIWIN*HGW20CC*Linear*carriage


Ballscrews*rolled*C7.
End*machining*fixed*float*for*a*pulley's

1set*C7*RM1605-L350mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

1set*C7*RM1610-L1150mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2*sets*C7*RM2010-L1700mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2pcs*1610*Ballnut*Housing

2pcs*2010*Ballnut*Housing

4pcs ballnut grease nipples

2*sets*superior type*bk*bf12*1610

2sets*superior type*bk*bf15*2010


Any thoughts?


Grtz. Bert










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Nr1madman
01-12-2017, 07:23 AM
You are planning well ;)

As you have read the straight edge will simplify your life and keep your hair from being grey :D

I did it the sloppy way!
Read about someone who placed the linear rails beside each other and checked for gaps.. if there are none you can flip one and if they still are without gaps they are straight..
I was lucky and had two straight rails that I could align the first long rail with. Could not get a feeling blade inserted anywere on the whole length of the rail.
For the matching rail I mounted the gantry and slid back and forwards, drilling and tapping one hole at a time as close to the gantry as possible.
For the gantry rails I took a steel ruler that I checked against my master straight rail..

Straight edge and square is better I think ;)

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Nickhofen
01-12-2017, 03:08 PM
The epoxy pour looks really good!

driftspin
01-12-2017, 09:02 PM
The epoxy pour looks really good!Well... need to say...

Disaster

Something went wrong ....

There was a tiny leak.

It leaked on the surface of Xaxis... it sucked inbetween the gantry and bed...

I did make preparations to prevent this.

I sprayed wd40 inbetween before pouring.

So nothing could stick.. worked only partially.

I needed a hammer an chisel to separate the gantry from the bed.

1 side of the x bed surface delaminated from the steel ....destroyed .

So deep breath ... cleanup and do it once more...


Grtz Bert.








Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

Nickhofen
01-12-2017, 10:14 PM
I am sorry to hear about that.

driftspin
05-12-2017, 07:19 PM
Yes super happy with it.
Need to do some mesurements to check for obvious F ups ...

Only have some old analogue calipers ...

Need to start buying some quality measurement tools help with aligning the rails.

And i am hoping piano wire can help with aligning...

I have some quality 140cm 8040 profile that can be used with straightening stuff.

Bouyan said one needs a 1000mm straight edge and machinist squares..
He is right i think...

Need to start figuring this out.


So...
I am about to order linear bearing parts.

Final BOM :

Rail**
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1830mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1000mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L500mm*Linear*rail
8pcs*HIWIN*HGH20CA*Linear*carriage
4pcs*HIWIN*HGW20CC*Linear*carriage


Ballscrews*rolled*C7.
End*machining*fixed*float*for*a*pulley's

1set*C7*RM1605-L350mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

1set*C7*RM1610-L1150mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2*sets*C7*RM2010-L1700mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2pcs*1610*Ballnut*Housing

2pcs*2010*Ballnut*Housing

4pcs ballnut grease nipples

2*sets*superior type*bk*bf12*1610

2sets*superior type*bk*bf15*2010


Any thoughts?


Grtz. Bert










Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkBom ordered BST Fred.

Anyone with experience from NL here?

I am curious about how this will work with dutch customs..
I understand carrier will report to tax administration..
My estimation is about 27% extra cost.
21 vat 5 import and some minor handling cost.

Guess i will pay tax and handling cost to carrier..

Grtz. Bert


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driftspin
22-12-2017, 07:47 PM
Bom ordered BST Fred.

Anyone with experience from NL here?

I am curious about how this will work with dutch customs..
I understand carrier will report to tax administration..
My estimation is about 27% extra cost.
21 vat 5 import and some minor handling cost.

Guess i will pay tax and handling cost to carrier..

Grtz. Bert


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkSo... guess what the post man brought today.

Goodies from china.[emoji3][emoji3][emoji3]

Guys, thanks for recommanding Fred from BST.
Everithing looks good and well packed.

Some heavy cardboard box reinforced with multiplex all wrapped in plastic foil.


2nd attempt at pouring epoxy is underway.

Tomorrow ill visit the local tool station to go and get m5 machine taps and some nico 4.2 drills.

Also.... need to source some Alu tooling plate. for gantry.

And have some 20mm mdf cut for test fit.

Its gonna be busy holidays.

Grtz. Bert.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/7ca2a64b062b7b4b2b311cf89f9eb298.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/b81deaa24de66983d7ef5e11db575f67.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/27e06f67486fce02f767514e28603c99.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/9449893140d2ff2bb866527934dd5025.jpg

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Nickhofen
22-12-2017, 07:56 PM
Nice goodies Driftspin!
It seems that Christmas came early ;-),Merry Christmas !

charlieuk
24-12-2017, 08:52 AM
Bom ordered BST Fred.

Anyone with experience from NL here?

I am curious about how this will work with dutch customs..
I understand carrier will report to tax administration..
My estimation is about 27% extra cost.
21 vat 5 import and some minor handling cost.

Guess i will pay tax and handling cost to carrier..

Grtz. Bert


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk


What did you end up paying to your door if you don’t mind me asking?

driftspin
24-12-2017, 05:27 PM
What did you end up paying to your door if you don’t mind me asking?Well i am not sure yet.. fedex delivered... i paid Fred... But i have not been taxed yet..



I guess it will be in the +/- 1300.- euro range.

I understand sometimes you pay tax in the country where goods enter EU.

That would be belgium..


Grtz. Bert.





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driftspin
03-01-2018, 02:52 PM
What did you end up paying to your door if you don’t mind me asking?I ended up paying 1200,- euros..

Fedex charged 10+10 euros costs +
i Payed about 31% import tax / vat on 480 usd shipped value based on attatched dispatch note.

Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
06-01-2018, 02:34 PM
Top Z carriage position.


Hi guys..

I am doing 15mm plywood test fit for all Z axis alu plates before ordering.


Where did you mount your top carriage?

High or low? And why?


Grtz Berthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/9314e13d4dd69f60a4ee205137a17ccf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/fe927fbda56f94afe71bdaefeae50905.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/13e35756964d953f2f9b7d5b50ab8a05.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/83e9e8ed39d385f266c2877a050ef548.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/05dcb44a9f708ac8dff8fb04eb5b64ab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/1c1a9ceed32a1cdd27970d90effdad62.jpg

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Nr1madman
06-01-2018, 06:35 PM
I placed mine as high as I could to get stability but as low as possible to get the travel distans I wanted :)
The further apart you have them creates less leverage on the bearings, more even load..

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driftspin
23-01-2018, 05:59 PM
Hi All,


I would like your opinions on the following.

Since my Y axis ballscrew is at the rear off the gantry, i have to make a choice.

Have the fixed end of the cable chain and ball screw inside the z-axis assembly or out side.

Like this or that:

2366523666

The chain would rest on top the gantry with a simple L support screwed to the back of the gantry to allow for a chain wide enough.
Moving end of chain would connect to the top z assembly plate near the nema

I feel keeping the box that surrounds gantry as small as possible, is best for rigidity.

On the other hand i would not have to make a separate floating support system for the cable chain.
Adding more weight and vibration.

Also i think having it on inside would look much better.



Grtz Bert.

routercnc
24-01-2018, 07:47 AM
Hi Bert,

Personally structural integrity wins over cable routing every time. So I would go with the image on the left with the closer ballscrew connection. Then make the neatest job of mounting the cable chain on the back. Wouldn't worry about weight and vibration of the extra support bracket holding the cable chain.

Boyan Silyavski
28-01-2018, 08:09 AM
Make all drag chains Horizontal, not Vertical. And use bigger that you think what will work.

driftspin
15-02-2018, 06:57 PM
Hi guys,


I have found a supplier for 7075 rolled sheet.

Will rolled 7075 be flat enough for z assembly plates.

I do have an automotive cilinderhead grinder option if it pans out to be unflat.

Or would ground 5083 be the better choice..

In a small volume and suppliers compared not much price difference..


I am really drawn to the 7075 for the obvious reasons [emoji16]


Grtz Bert

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driftspin
19-02-2018, 09:00 PM
Finally progress, found a good source for 7075 milled both sides, so ordered z plates...


Need to decide on steppers now and htd pully and belts size.


Grtz Bert.




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