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driftspin
11-08-2017, 06:42 PM
Hi all, this is the first post of my build log.

After reading a lot on this site i made some of the build decisions.


Basically it is a half raised gantry router.
Planning on 15mm alu toolingplate Z-Axis




1st.. size.

- 1500x 800 x 200 mm work area.

2nd materials to be cut.

- Wood and aluminium.

3rd basic building material.

- Steel box section. 120×80×4mm and 80x80x4mm

Router type.

- 4 bearing Chinese WC ER20 2..2kw

VFD ...

-Danfoss FC-51 type.

linear stuff.

- 20mm rail, c7 rolled ballscrew1610 for Y, 1605 for Z, 2010 for X

- 4 x nema 23 3 or 4 NM type

Or maybe 2 nema23 and 1 nema 34...
Is undecided for now.


Tools
-I have no access to mill.
-I have access to old lathe. but no real experience

- Basic hand / power tools.

- Design sw
Solidworks.

Cnc controls

- Eyeballing uccnc300eth

- Digital drivers 68v diy psu


So that is the plan.

I do notice i am refining the plan on the go.



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Nr1madman
11-08-2017, 07:26 PM
Hello!

Sounds awsome :D
Good luck and for ours sake post a lot of pictures..!

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driftspin
11-08-2017, 07:48 PM
Hello!

Sounds awsome :D
Good luck and for ours sake post a lot of pictures..!

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkYes... pictures... ill try to post on every progress..

Actually i started work on a design over a year ago.

1st the plan was to make an adjustable bed.

22521


This over complicated the design.... or weakened it...

now the design is more basic.


22522
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driftspin
11-08-2017, 08:15 PM
Buying steel is not a problem.
Getting 6mtr length box section cut or stored in my shed is..

Shed is just 5.7m X 3.7m



So i orderd the steel box section, and some end plates pre cut, ready to weld up.

A friend of mine works with steel, he is my main supplier for steel related stuff.
We share a hobby 150 Amp migwelder. (Cebora)

It was bought for automotive related welding.

driftspin
11-08-2017, 08:36 PM
This is what the start of my cnc hobby looked like in the back of my car
22523

I spirit levelled the top of a standard used desk for setting up the bed box section.


Dont ask me why i did not start with the legs of the frame.

22524

Ok .... its gonna be bulky...

Tag welding it up

22525

22526


22527

22528

After final welding i found out warping will happen...

Total distortion is now +/- 1.5 mm

1850x1160 mm total size.

I have read on this forum this could happen... But is was still more than i expected.


Epoxy has to solve this problem in a later stage...



More to come.





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Clive S
11-08-2017, 09:57 PM
linear stuff.

- 20mm rail, c7 rolled ballscrew1610 for Y,Z, 2010 for X

- 4 x nema 23 3 or 4 NM type

Or maybe 2 nema23 and 1 nema 34...
Is undecided for now.


I would re think this for me I would use 1610 for X & Y and 1605 for Z

With nema 23 3.1nM

Have a look a Joe's build http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4513-3-Axis-CNC-router?highlight=joeharris

Zeeflyboy
11-08-2017, 10:29 PM
looks nice, I'd just be a little concerned about how you are going to make the rails work on the gantry? That orientation is going to be very tricky to align within the required tolerances on a steel beam. What was your plan in that regard?

driftspin
11-08-2017, 10:29 PM
I would re think this for me I would use 1610 for X & Y and 1605 for Z

With nema 23 3.1nM

Have a look a Joe's build http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4513-3-Axis-CNC-router?highlight=joeharrisHi Clive,

I was playing around with the stepper calculator from this forum...

1605 on Z 1:1 ? or also reducted?


Picking the 2010 over a 1610 on x axis ,1700mm between bearings, is about critical rpm vs speed... looks like i need 2010 to reach up to or over 5 m/min.

What is your opinion on these?

Since i am a beginner i am not sure what the max speed is i would need for cutting and rappids

Some other materials might need faster speeds i am not sure...


2.2kw spindle makes cutting at lower rpm easier combined with a quality vfd.

I am trying to pick the right quality parts to make a versatile machine.

Any help is welcome.

Please share your concerns.

No linear parts or elektronics are bought yet.





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Clive S
11-08-2017, 11:16 PM
Picking the 2010 over a 1610 on x axis ,1700mm between bearings, is about critical rpm vs speed... looks like i need 2010 to reach up to or over 5 m/min.
Yes I agree. Have you decided on one motor or two?

Don't buy any electrics until you have it all drawn up in CAD AM882 or EM806 work well for the drives at 68V

driftspin
12-08-2017, 12:14 PM
looks nice, I'd just be a little concerned about how you are going to make the rails work on the gantry? That orientation is going to be very tricky to align within the required tolerances on a steel beam. What was your plan in that regard?Dear Zeeflyboy,

I hope for a miracle by epoxy[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

First one needs a zero reference for horizontal level.

I think it was Boyan who explained on the forum he made a reference level surface for this on a concrete floor by pouring epoxy.

I will try this way.
I will spirit level and anker bolt my frame to the concrete floor before pourings so nothing can move and use the x poured epoxy rail mounting surface for this.


Pouring the rail mounting surface for X will be done like the example from a forum member see picture.


like the X axis the 4 mounting surfaces on the gantry will be epoxy levelled.

In 2 steps...

Step 1 I will do the 2 gantry X rail carriage mounting surfaces, and bottom Y rail mounting surface pouring, in 1 go. ( gantry upside down )
There will be an epoxy levelling bridge between the 2 carriage mounting surfaces
Similar to x rail pouring setup


So now those 3 surfaces will be in the same plain.

After curing..

Step 2 The gantry can now be flipped to normal position and top Y axis rail mounting surface can be poured..

Placing the gantry in the normal position on the mounting surface of the x rail should give the best possible reference for a level plain.

After pouring Y bottom and top should be in the same plain..

In theory [emoji1] this should work.


I know this will be a critical process.
When this method fails i will redesign and have the gantry (rail) mounting surfaces milled. nothing much changes only a few pounds of steel added.


When milling is needed i will upgrade the gantry box section to 80x120x8 or 10 to have some meat to mill
I do want to avoid **bolting** the gantry sides to the gantry Y-axis.
I prefer welded solid for best rigidity.
But welding solid must be avoided going that route, because of warping.

I have no friends with a mill capable of box section 1200X120x80.

Would a surface grinder work for this purpose?

Any other thoughts?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170812/7db00f58ead70077d6ac096271cf627e.jpg

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Boyan Silyavski
12-08-2017, 12:21 PM
Thats how i did it on the gantry, my first build. gantry was flipped 180 degree and i poured gantry sides and lower beam epoxy. Then flipped and did upper rail. No problem.

But you will need a straight edge and 2 precision squares for later when mounting the rails and so...

driftspin
12-08-2017, 01:00 PM
Yes I agree. Have you decided on one motor or two?

Don't buy any electrics until you have it all drawn up in CAD AM882 or EM806 work well for the drives at 68VDear Clive S,

My design dictates at least 2 idler pullys per ballscrew if i want to go single x axis nema 34 stepper... and have the whole bed space.

Or... i have to limit bed space and cross the bed...There is room in the design to do this though.
And 1 side is up against a wall anyways.

When going single stepper,
i think i would buy a wide stepper pully,
and shift the ballscrews a belt width and use 2 belts, 1 for every ballscrew.

For now a 2 stepper x setup looks more convenient from a mechanical point of view.
2 short belts.
lots of bed space

My Electronic pov is opposit.

For inertia it seems, in my mind, better too.
2 powerful 3+Nm steppers on high voltage digital drivers. Instead of a single bigger 8/12nm nema34. this is just a gut feeling , not based on any sound research.

Not sure what makes a 3, 3,1 or 4 Nm nema 23 stepper best choice.
Just high amps low inductance right?



Any thoughts?

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Clive S
12-08-2017, 03:56 PM
For now a 2 stepper x setup looks more convenient from a mechanical point of view.
2 short belts.
lots of bed space

That's what I use you can run them 1.5:1 or 2:1 I used 3.1Nm but with 1610 screws motors from https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor-Plus/Nema23-3.1Nm/Stepper-Motor-3.1Nm-x-4-60BYGH301B-Nema23
with am882 drives from China

I do have a nema 23 4Nm on my mill but don't see a difference in them

Boyan Silyavski
13-08-2017, 07:24 PM
I would always prefer the mechanical convenience over the electrical...

Zeeflyboy
14-08-2017, 11:27 AM
Dear Zeeflyboy,

I hope for a miracle by epoxy[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

First one needs a zero reference for horizontal level.

I think it was Boyan who explained on the forum he made a reference level surface for this on a concrete floor by pouring epoxy.

I will try this way.
I will spirit level and anker bolt my frame to the concrete floor before pourings so nothing can move and use the x poured epoxy rail mounting surface for this.


Pouring the rail mounting surface for X will be done like the example from a forum member see picture.


like the X axis the 4 mounting surfaces on the gantry will be epoxy levelled.

In 2 steps...

Step 1 I will do the 2 gantry X rail carriage mounting surfaces, and bottom Y rail mounting surface pouring, in 1 go. ( gantry upside down )
There will be an epoxy levelling bridge between the 2 carriage mounting surfaces
Similar to x rail pouring setup


So now those 3 surfaces will be in the same plain.

After curing..

Step 2 The gantry can now be flipped to normal position and top Y axis rail mounting surface can be poured..

Placing the gantry in the normal position on the mounting surface of the x rail should give the best possible reference for a level plain.

After pouring Y bottom and top should be in the same plain..

In theory [emoji1] this should work.


I know this will be a critical process.
When this method fails i will redesign and have the gantry (rail) mounting surfaces milled. nothing much changes only a few pounds of steel added.


When milling is needed i will upgrade the gantry box section to 80x120x8 or 10 to have some meat to mill
I do want to avoid **bolting** the gantry sides to the gantry Y-axis.
I prefer welded solid for best rigidity.
But welding solid must be avoided going that route, because of warping.

I have no friends with a mill capable of box section 1200X120x80.

Would a surface grinder work for this purpose?

Any other thoughts?



Sounds good! Will watch with interest. Good luck!

driftspin
09-09-2017, 12:58 PM
I would always prefer the mechanical convenience over the electrical...Dear Boyan,

Not sure iam really clear what your preference is.

Do you mean use a single motor on 2 belts solution?
Mechanical advantage is :
- Y axis can not get out of alignment easy?
* disadvantage idler pullys

or

use 2 motors and solve alignment in the homing sequence by electronic controls...
- Y axis can be aligned easily that way.
* Some (cheaper) controls dont do gantry squaring sequence.






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driftspin
09-09-2017, 01:06 PM
Ok some progress.

In the summer months the build did not get a lot of attention.

I did manage to get some of the steelwork done.


Did any of you run wiring through the box section?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170909/9b441134855754487abd5c1ad1eeafb6.jpg

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Nickhofen
09-09-2017, 01:47 PM
Aren't you going to put brace at the bed, at the long axis?

Boyan Silyavski
09-09-2017, 02:22 PM
Dear Boyan,

Not sure iam really clear what your preference is.

Do you mean use a single motor on 2 belts solution?
Mechanical advantage is :
- Y axis can not get out of alignment easy?
* disadvantage idler pullys

or

use 2 motors and solve alignment in the homing sequence by electronic controls...
- Y axis can be aligned easily that way.
* Some (cheaper) controls dont do gantry squaring sequence.






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if you are experienced with belts, know how to tighten properly long belt, know how to align all components then go with 1 motor and belt system. If you dont have the space, have a suitable controller board, go with motor each side. At the end is a question of convenience.

driftspin
09-09-2017, 02:58 PM
Aren't you going to put brace at the bed, at the long axis?Frame bracing.

Well no...well not yet.

Span is 2x1650mm span 120x80x4 mm box section....

plenty stiff one would think...

In Theory,

At 400 pounds of moving gantry weight 0.0027 inches vertical deflection would occure ... but the bed would move also. so. well.

At a more realistic 100 pounds 0.00068 inches

This would only be a problem if the workpiece was stiffer than the box section right?


In my design there is no absolute movement between router bit and workpiece when vertical X axis flex would occure. So no accuracy problems there.


By now total weight is 190 kg with no gantry...

I do believe "ringing" might become a problem... the assembly has a +/- 1khz resonance frequency.

I might fill her up with something like sand or epoxy mix concrete or something need to look in to that.


For shaking appart there is something to be said though.

Bracing at the bottom should solve x axis flex.. some of it anyway. It felt plenty stiff  those diagonals are out of the way great.



Y/X direction flex / bracing... yes.. well.. erh there is going to be cabinets installed ..

And maybe a few bits like: compressor airbrush type , vacuum cleaner, dust removal cyclone, cooling for spindle,
electronics cabinet.






X-direction flex bracing
I cannot yet fill the under the bed space with diagonals... yet.

There will be bolt on triangles when stuff like that is sorted.


Y-direction flexbracing

There is a 3mm thick plate 1000mm x 200mm with curved edges between the legs.. bolted with 4xm10 threaded rod to the legs.. plenty long m10 rod +/- 100 mm for building up tension.



Diagonal cross frame flex.

At this time i have prepared 4 m12 screws at the bottom of the legs to level the frame
And help with aligning icw anker bolts to the concrete floor.


When it is level and all legs (set screws) are in contact with the floor.
It feels incredibly stiff.


When now a set screw is set out of alignment by a 1/4 turn (M12) the table is wobbly ... proof of stiffness...

Any thoughts?

I have no good idea what the shaking forces are like in real life.

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Davek0974
11-09-2017, 08:13 AM
I have no good idea what the shaking forces are like in real life.



These depend on the mass of the moving item and your acceleration/deceleration curves.

Don't forget - acceleration/deceleration is king of the hill, its more important than travelling velocity, far more, as it will directly affect the path following ability of the software controller - with these figures too low you will see bad corner rounding etc where the trajectory planner cannot perform the moves in time, the only solution then, if you cant increase accel/decel is to lower the speed, this then gives you issues with cutter burning etc - its a vicious circle but all determined by your acceleration/deceleration curves.

My plasma machine only has a very light gantry - no motor, no cut forces, and it can shake quite badly at times, that has a steel frame too.

Always build as stiff as possible :)

Boyan Silyavski
11-09-2017, 10:42 AM
Yes, as stiff as possible. Thats the way. If you use trochoidal HSM toolpaths /you will :hysterical:/ all will shake very seriously if not stiff and heavy

driftspin
07-10-2017, 09:44 PM
Hi guys,



A little progress update.

First layer of paint two tone black and white.


What do you guys think?


grtz Bert.
22970


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Clive S
07-10-2017, 10:15 PM
Hi guys,



A little progress update.

First layer of paint two tone black and white.


What do you guys think?


grtz Bert.
22970


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Can't see the gantry moving yet. :joker:

driftspin
07-10-2017, 11:01 PM
Can't see the gantry moving yet. :joker:Hi Clive S.


Hahah no, no movement yet.

Progress is slow.

Work related issues use up near all of my time. Well it pays for the bills.


I am still working on the gantry.
I need to get some bracing in, in the gantry uprights. Also i need to finish beefing up the mounting surfaces, some welds need finishing.



When all that is done the big pour is next.


After that a lot of big decisions are to be made.

I am near ready to order the linear parts.

I need advice on ballascrew end machining for pulley's.


Also .. will quality angle bearing bf bk type blocks fixed / float setup do?

Does one gain lots of rigidity by going fixed fixed? is it much more complicated to setup ?

I am now designing based on fixed/float setup.

So maximum speeds vs screw rpm vs pitch vs screw length and diameter are based on fixed float.


Grtz. Bert










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routercnc
08-10-2017, 02:15 PM
Looking good but I would have added another member to the top of the black frame work to support the underside of the white cross members. Not too late to bolt something in and shim or epoxy any gaps.

Fixed float is fine for the screws but I'm thinking of fixed fixed on my long axis (as per Boyans machine) to reduce a slight buzz / vibration when the machine is towards one end. In theory you might worry about heat and expansion but for the amount I use my machine and the speeds etc I think it is a low risk. Not sure yet but might make it with a spring preload . . . Or keep it simple and lock it in place.

driftspin
08-10-2017, 04:58 PM
Looking good but I would have added another member to the top of the black frame work to support the underside of the white cross members. Not too late to bolt something in and shim or epoxy any gaps.

Fixed float is fine for the screws but I'm thinking of fixed fixed on my long axis (as per Boyans machine) to reduce a slight buzz / vibration when the machine is towards one end. In theory you might worry about heat and expansion but for the amount I use my machine and the speeds etc I think it is a low risk. Not sure yet but might make it with a spring preload . . . Or keep it simple and lock it in place.Hi router CNC,


There will be 4 bolt on diagonals from the middle crossmember when electric panel and additional equipment is fitted.

Grtz Bert.



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Boyan Silyavski
11-10-2017, 09:28 PM
At the moment my 3m long ball screws in Fixed/Fixed config are without a glitch. Though as i said somewhere, when i start machining very fast like more than 12m/min then the rotating nuts start to heat and heat the screws. I think the fact that the gantry is ~200kg and moves with such high acceleration plus the speed , helps that. Which is cured by additional greasing prior to that. Otherwise no problems till now.

I think one of the biggest problems when DIYcnc is not locking the bolts with a thread locker. Now i lock any bolt on a machine. Not only the obvious that need that. That is also valid for the shafts and the pulleys. A must do , i would say.

driftspin
13-10-2017, 09:23 PM
At the moment my 3m long ball screws in Fixed/Fixed config are without a glitch. Though as i said somewhere, when i start machining very fast like more than 12m/min then the rotating nuts start to heat and heat the screws. I think the fact that the gantry is ~200kg and moves with such high acceleration plus the speed , helps that. Which is cured by additional greasing prior to that. Otherwise no problems till now.

I think one of the biggest problems when DIYcnc is not locking the bolts with a thread locker. Now i lock any bolt on a machine. Not only the obvious that need that. That is also valid for the shafts and the pulleys. A must do , i would say.Buy locktite, noted :-)

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driftspin
17-10-2017, 06:31 PM
Hi guys,


I am about ready for the big pour.
Planning to do it this week or next.

I plan to put the frame under a tarp with a thermostat controlled heater during curing.
And set it to 25 C.



Now i need some looking over my shoulder before ordering linearcomponents.

I have a quote from Fred.

The shopping list:

Rail.
2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L1830mm Linear rail

2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L1000mm Linear rail

2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L500mm Linear rail

12pcs HIWIN HGH20CA Linear carriage



Ballscrews rolled C7.

End machining fixed float for a pulley

Z-axis
1set C7 RM1610-L350mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*

Y-axis
1set C7 RM1610-L1150mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*


X-axis
2 sets C7 RM2010-L1700mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*

2pcs 1610 Ballnut Housing

2pcs 2010 Ballnut Housing


2 sets bk bf12 1610

2sets bk bf15 2010

Upgrade all of the 4set BK/BF* to Superior bearing type.


Any thoughts?


Grtz Bert




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driftspin
17-10-2017, 06:40 PM
Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Clive S
17-10-2017, 08:27 PM
Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Remember the F length 30mm is in the total length on the screw.

The bolts used are generally cap heads

Boyan Silyavski
17-10-2017, 08:48 PM
Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Din912

driftspin
17-10-2017, 09:14 PM
Remember the F length 30mm is in the total length on the screw.

The bolts used are generally cap headsHi Clive,

Yes, i discussed this with Fred.

He is a patient guy [emoji16] .

I want some spare cm of travel in the Z design... i am not sure i like the height of the z axis though.. I like compact.

I want the extra head room in z ballscrew for MK1a gantry...

what ?!!! NO NO NOO... 🤤🤤🤤


No.. im not sure 80x 120 will do and calculate in a design change to a more beefy gantry ....some day... with more travel...


Well i want at least 200mm +Z travel.. so

Travel + nut + bf bk + F = 30 for pully =
+/- 320 .. so 350 for Z should do.



Grtz Bert



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driftspin
17-10-2017, 09:29 PM
Din912Yes those.. exactly.

But... 8.8 or 12.9

Like your good ol bolts or tougher machine bolt style.

Does one need high tensile strenght?

I will be tapping in the 4mm steel from box section for the rail. all 200 or so off them.

Carriage bolts will have some extra meat to grip on to (4+5 mm) it has less bolts so ... well more doesnt hurt there.

Grtz Bert.

PS
Where does one buy kinda good machine taps for this purpose, not sure what makes an economical machine tap.








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Clive S
18-10-2017, 10:10 AM
Like your good ol bolts or tougher machine bolt style.

Does one need high tensile strenght?
Just standard cap heads black or zinc etc.

Cutwell do good taps.

routercnc
18-10-2017, 11:58 AM
8.8 means tensile strength of ~800 MPa and yield strength of ~80% of this

12.9 means tensile strength of ~12 MPa and yield strength of ~90% of this

So 12.9 will be much stronger than 8.8 but you are usually not interested in that. You are unlikely to create forces high enough to break the bolts on a diy machine. 8.8 MPa is quite a lot !

What you are interested in is the stiffness of the bolts as this tells you how much deflection you will get when machining parts. But this will be similar in both bolt types so 8.8 will be fine. No harm in using 12.9 but they won't give you any benefit.

If you are interested in why it is because the stress/strain curves have the same slope, it is just that the 12.9 bolts will go further along the curve as they are stronger.

If you buy stainless there is a different naming system as stainless does not really yield before it breaks (by comparison) but again there is no diy CNC advantage other than looks nice and won't rust

driftspin
18-10-2017, 09:31 PM
8.8 means tensile strength of ~800 MPa and yield strength of ~80% of this

12.9 means tensile strength of ~12 MPa and yield strength of ~90% of this

So 12.9 will be much stronger than 8.8 but you are usually not interested in that. You are unlikely to create forces high enough to break the bolts on a diy machine. 8.8 MPa is quite a lot !

What you are interested in is the stiffness of the bolts as this tells you how much deflection you will get when machining parts. But this will be similar in both bolt types so 8.8 will be fine. No harm in using 12.9 but they won't give you any benefit.

If you are interested in why it is because the stress/strain curves have the same slope, it is just that the 12.9 bolts will go further along the curve as they are stronger.

If you buy stainless there is a different naming system as stainless does not really yield before it breaks (by comparison) but again there is no diy CNC advantage other than looks nice and won't rustOk guys i'm clearly not into engineering like you all are [emoji16]

Getting there... some day... maybe.

ok welded in braces today..

Now some more degreasing and set up for pouring.


Will post soon.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/29c42b35e0e839f7c838d4072d950fbc.jpg

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Nickhofen
18-10-2017, 09:37 PM
Looks good!

driftspin
28-10-2017, 10:29 PM
Looks good!Update

Last steps welding .

Prepping stuff for pour.

Idea is to use simpel floor board and silicone kit to leak proof..


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/3dcea3882477453dd53bd26c9c2b522b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/675964ca9753a024e909f8322f248f3b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/7471054d957b71df91e1894ba52123cc.jpg

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Nr1madman
29-10-2017, 04:36 AM
Hello!

How wide is the epoxy supposed to be?
Do you know that the sides tend to get raised, usually called meniscus?
I don't know if having the sides angled like that will lessen or make the meniscus worse..
Maybe you know something that we others don't and your solution solves the problem?

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driftspin
29-10-2017, 02:08 PM
Hello!

How wide is the epoxy supposed to be?
Do you know that the sides tend to get raised, usually called meniscus?
I don't know if having the sides angled like that will lessen or make the meniscus worse..
Maybe you know something that we others don't and your solution solves the problem?

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkHi Nr1madman....

More knowledge? No.


The witdh of the profile is about 80 mm.
The witdh at 5 mm epoxy thickness should be about 70mm, plenty of room for some meniscus and enough flat surface left for mounting the rail.


I want to see what te result will be on the bottom of the gantry x mounting surface.


I might decide i want the wide type carriages on x because there is space enough for them there.. miniscus might become a problem there..

Any thoughts?

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Nr1madman
29-10-2017, 04:25 PM
I'm sure you are right about having enough room left. Just concerned that the inwards angled sides will create larger miniscus. It might work the other way also :D

I have been known to be wrong! ;)

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driftspin
31-10-2017, 08:16 PM
I'm sure you are right about having enough room left. Just concerned that the inwards angled sides will create larger miniscus. It might work the other way also :D

I have been known to be wrong! ;)

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkNr1madman.. Ha yes about being wrong... been there done that[emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]



I think you might be right about minicus getting worse when walls lean inward...


Will report on this...


I can still change stuff...
you know what i will.


On the x carriage mounting surface.. this is the spot where extra room is needed...

Grtz..

Bert



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Nr1madman
01-11-2017, 11:58 AM
Nr1madman.. Ha yes about being wrong... been there done that[emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]



I think you might be right about minicus getting worse when walls lean inward...


Will report on this...


I can still change stuff...
you know what i will.


On the x carriage mounting surface.. this is the spot where extra room is needed...

Grtz..

Bert



Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkIf the meniscus should interfere with wide bearings then it's very easy to file the meniscus down. Im just worried that there will be much waste as the epoxy is quite expensive :D

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driftspin
01-11-2017, 07:12 PM
If the meniscus should interfere with wide bearings then it's very easy to file the meniscus down. Im just worried that there will be much waste as the epoxy is quite expensive :D

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalkyes its expensive... some 75 euros for +/- 3kg.. its cheapest i could find with good properties and tropical hardner...

need to put a heater in the shop because of this now [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]

grtz Bert

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
11-11-2017, 05:24 PM
Ok 1st pouring round.

I prepped 0.5 kg of epoxy.

Mix is 135 vs 365 expoy.


And yes.. in the first round i found out epoxy leaks through everywhere. [emoji16]


Goodthing.. acryl kit can stop epoxy leaks .


I made good use of the leaked epoxy by coating all surfaces of the next round... with a bit of luck i will have no problems there...

The 2nd round will be some 2.0 kg.

last round 0.4 kg.



I have made a decision on the Linear parts bom list today... i will order wide carriages for the x axis.


Fred: i will be ordering soon :-)

Hope to have the parts this year.

Lots of new things to think about!

Do you guys have any clue for how long i need to keep the temperature @20+ C for curing epoxy evenly?


Maybe 4 days or so?

Grtz

Bert.

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Nr1madman
12-11-2017, 09:10 AM
Hmm do you think doing a small pour last will help making it level? I think bigger mass in the pour may help make it flow even.. I would do the 2kg pour last ;)

But you might be right, just an observation!

The curing time will depend on the epoxy used and thickness of the pour.. I was scared so I waited 10 days haha

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driftspin
12-11-2017, 11:44 AM
Hmm do you think doing a small pour last will help making it level? I think bigger mass in the pour may help make it flow even.. I would do the 2kg pour last ;)

But you might be right, just an observation!

The curing time will depend on the epoxy used and thickness of the pour.. I was scared so I waited 10 days haha

Skickat från min SM-N910C via TapatalkWell actually... i just poured the x- rail mounting sufaces 2x 320mmx80mm x5mm + the connecting bridge 1000mmx40mmx5mm

Total about 0.5 liters ~ 0.5kg

I have just checked.. temperature is steady at 22 deg C. Epoxy is only just starting to get solid... it is just getting real sticky now. 16hrs after pour.

The leaking epoxy was used the coat the kit seams for the big pour: bottom rail Y surface+ 2x rail x surface and bridge.

i used a small paintbrush to soak the seams and connections

about 5mx80mmx5mm of channel to fill and a 1mx40x5mm to fill.

The flow thickness of epoxy when you just start the pour is about 3 or 4 mm thick.
So yes i agree pour the whole thickness in 1 go.


I have a good feeling about keeping the temperature steady.

In the test pour there was orange skin like surface finish... no sign of that , well not jet.


The big pour i did today : shiny surfaces.

I mixed 1kg first.. then another 0.5kg.

looks like after allowing the epoxy to flow for a few hours i can see the frame straightness is good to within 2mm

Epoxy film thickness varies from +/- 6 to 4 mm

... some leaks not to bad... easy fix.


Now i need to wait a week before i can flip the gantry, clean up, and pour the last surface top y axis rail mounting surface.


Grtz.

Bert.


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171112/6cbbb650b0036b113ff030d1a96662c7.jpg

Nickhofen
14-11-2017, 07:05 PM
Nice to see that epoxy level goes well,carry on!

Nr1madman
14-11-2017, 07:25 PM
Nice :D

Really looking forwards to seeing your results with leaning sides..

Surface looks good right now!

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driftspin
16-11-2017, 09:49 PM
Nice :D

Really looking forwards to seeing your results with leaning sides..

Surface looks good right now!

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalkoh wow...





Just removed the sides.. the suggestion i read on this forum (Joe H[emoji106]) using a simple packing tape on the sides worked out great. Easy removal of siding and great finish.

Lessons learned:

-My type of epoxy was not delamination proof under 5mm thickness.
Any thickness over 5mm would chip instead of easy peal off.
- Use taped sides, simple packing tape will prevent epoxy binding to sides and will give you great finsh.
- use small kit seam for leak proofing on inside of the sides to steal beam.
- used rich kit seam on the outside.
- use low height sides (20mm above steel is ok) for easy kit application.
- Use extra bracing in tipical H setup bridge.
- check for obvious leaks[emoji4] before pouring.
- acryl kit can stop epoxy leaks on the outside of the siding.
- coat all kit seams with epoxy with a brush to seal up any leaks days before a pour.

- Inward leaning sides have meniscus too.
- not much worse but worse. maybe 7mm instead of 5mm
- Having stable temperature does positively influence surface finish.


ok i have to clean up sides of x axis remove meniscus then i can flip gantry and do the last pour.


Guys, thanx for all the great info accumulated on this forum. I could never have figured out all this stuff by my self.


Grtz..

Bert.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/abac70586b992253bba0d751ad3d6185.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/73962139dc28ae14147c47f24f4b3226.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/28e65030e4b9c0f4bb4c79e53b5c4d1f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171116/9c38f0c9aa8fec3ddd6a4eaf1c1ca37f.jpg

Nr1madman
17-11-2017, 08:05 AM
Good work :D

Thanks for the reporting, many points made that can help others!

Im a bit envious about the side finish.. packingtape seems like the way to go;)

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driftspin
17-11-2017, 08:09 PM
Good work :D

Thanks for the reporting, many points made that can help others!

Im a bit envious about the side finish.. packingtape seems like the way to go;)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via TapatalkDont envy me. :-)

I only showed the best of the results.

I will finish clean up and do some more pictures later.

All in all i am happy with the results.

MK II will be a hole in one [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]


the acrylkit solution has a downside.

It weakens +/- 3 mm of the sides..
Ill draw up something to explain.


So when i want just epoxy on the sides i need to scrape some 3mm off.
this eliminated meniscus in the process.
And the nice and easy side finish is gone.

Use least possible kit seam.
On the pouring side of the siding that is.
Use rich kit seams on the outside.

Ok both my x axis are 1850mm long, the epoxy varies in thickness from 7mm one end, to 3 mm half way , other end 6mm

Equals 3.5 mm of warp by welding only.
I did not expect that.

1mm out of level by spirit level over 1850mm.. equals 0.5mm / meter error in spirit level... right on spec for expected spirit levelling accuracy.

ok.. looks like i have about 1830mm of flat surface for rail.. need to update BOM list spec for Fred.

Did any of you cut linear rail by angle grinder?




Grtz Bert.








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Nr1madman
17-11-2017, 08:15 PM
I cut down one rail about 20mm.. read first to use a thin cut disc and I didn't have any thin discs at home so I used a dremel kind of tool with 50x1mm disc. Went well :)

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driftspin
22-11-2017, 09:45 PM
Dont envy me. :-)

I only showed the best of the results.

I will finish clean up and do some more pictures later.

All in all i am happy with the results.

MK II will be a hole in one [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]


the acrylkit solution has a downside.

It weakens +/- 3 mm of the sides..
Ill draw up something to explain.


So when i want just epoxy on the sides i need to scrape some 3mm off.
this eliminated meniscus in the process.
And the nice and easy side finish is gone.

Use least possible kit seam.
On the pouring side of the siding that is.
Use rich kit seams on the outside.

Ok both my x axis are 1850mm long, the epoxy varies in thickness from 7mm one end, to 3 mm half way , other end 6mm

Equals 3.5 mm of warp by welding only.
I did not expect that.

1mm out of level by spirit level over 1850mm.. equals 0.5mm / meter error in spirit level... right on spec for expected spirit levelling accuracy.

ok.. looks like i have about 1830mm of flat surface for rail.. need to update BOM list spec for Fred.

Did any of you cut linear rail by angle grinder?




Grtz Bert.








Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalklast pour,

Ok lets try to get it perfect this time.

Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/c1560aae8d19cc55da2647c9e4bfcbb9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/54e457045d08ba72188ed4b6577cede1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/550658e7ee8eb3d5cad78a6167d46ad4.jpg


Update...



last pour is done... in 48 hrs the side come off...


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
30-11-2017, 07:49 PM
last pour,

Ok lets try to get it perfect this time.

Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/c1560aae8d19cc55da2647c9e4bfcbb9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/54e457045d08ba72188ed4b6577cede1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171122/550658e7ee8eb3d5cad78a6167d46ad4.jpg


Update...



last pour is done... in 48 hrs the side come off...


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkLast pour results

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/1c5de74c2fcb4b930c5c800aaae16859.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/e0a2137cbc96bf4faac5dba19940bf33.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/6c3d5b5d35f0f90ae61a58570ae4a6ed.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/9e917eefd06533a9c0cc446c0b18ad2d.jpg

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Nr1madman
30-11-2017, 08:02 PM
Looks good ;)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk

driftspin
30-11-2017, 09:17 PM
Looks good ;)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via TapatalkYes super happy with it.
Need to do some mesurements to check for obvious F ups ...

Only have some old analogue calipers ...

Need to start buying some quality measurement tools help with aligning the rails.

And i am hoping piano wire can help with aligning...

I have some quality 140cm 8040 profile that can be used with straightening stuff.

Bouyan said one needs a 1000mm straight edge and machinist squares..
He is right i think...

Need to start figuring this out.


So...
I am about to order linear bearing parts.

Final BOM :

Rail**
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1830mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1000mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L500mm*Linear*rail
8pcs*HIWIN*HGH20CA*Linear*carriage
4pcs*HIWIN*HGW20CC*Linear*carriage


Ballscrews*rolled*C7.
End*machining*fixed*float*for*a*pulley's

1set*C7*RM1605-L350mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

1set*C7*RM1610-L1150mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2*sets*C7*RM2010-L1700mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2pcs*1610*Ballnut*Housing

2pcs*2010*Ballnut*Housing

4pcs ballnut grease nipples

2*sets*superior type*bk*bf12*1610

2sets*superior type*bk*bf15*2010


Any thoughts?


Grtz. Bert










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Nr1madman
01-12-2017, 06:23 AM
You are planning well ;)

As you have read the straight edge will simplify your life and keep your hair from being grey :D

I did it the sloppy way!
Read about someone who placed the linear rails beside each other and checked for gaps.. if there are none you can flip one and if they still are without gaps they are straight..
I was lucky and had two straight rails that I could align the first long rail with. Could not get a feeling blade inserted anywere on the whole length of the rail.
For the matching rail I mounted the gantry and slid back and forwards, drilling and tapping one hole at a time as close to the gantry as possible.
For the gantry rails I took a steel ruler that I checked against my master straight rail..

Straight edge and square is better I think ;)

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Nickhofen
01-12-2017, 02:08 PM
The epoxy pour looks really good!

driftspin
01-12-2017, 08:02 PM
The epoxy pour looks really good!Well... need to say...

Disaster

Something went wrong ....

There was a tiny leak.

It leaked on the surface of Xaxis... it sucked inbetween the gantry and bed...

I did make preparations to prevent this.

I sprayed wd40 inbetween before pouring.

So nothing could stick.. worked only partially.

I needed a hammer an chisel to separate the gantry from the bed.

1 side of the x bed surface delaminated from the steel ....destroyed .

So deep breath ... cleanup and do it once more...


Grtz Bert.








Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

Nickhofen
01-12-2017, 09:14 PM
I am sorry to hear about that.

driftspin
05-12-2017, 06:19 PM
Yes super happy with it.
Need to do some mesurements to check for obvious F ups ...

Only have some old analogue calipers ...

Need to start buying some quality measurement tools help with aligning the rails.

And i am hoping piano wire can help with aligning...

I have some quality 140cm 8040 profile that can be used with straightening stuff.

Bouyan said one needs a 1000mm straight edge and machinist squares..
He is right i think...

Need to start figuring this out.


So...
I am about to order linear bearing parts.

Final BOM :

Rail**
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1830mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L1000mm*Linear*rail
2pcs*HIWIN*HGR20-L500mm*Linear*rail
8pcs*HIWIN*HGH20CA*Linear*carriage
4pcs*HIWIN*HGW20CC*Linear*carriage


Ballscrews*rolled*C7.
End*machining*fixed*float*for*a*pulley's

1set*C7*RM1605-L350mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

1set*C7*RM1610-L1150mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2*sets*C7*RM2010-L1700mm*Ball*screw*with*ballnut
Change*Length*F*to*30mm*

2pcs*1610*Ballnut*Housing

2pcs*2010*Ballnut*Housing

4pcs ballnut grease nipples

2*sets*superior type*bk*bf12*1610

2sets*superior type*bk*bf15*2010


Any thoughts?


Grtz. Bert










Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkBom ordered BST Fred.

Anyone with experience from NL here?

I am curious about how this will work with dutch customs..
I understand carrier will report to tax administration..
My estimation is about 27% extra cost.
21 vat 5 import and some minor handling cost.

Guess i will pay tax and handling cost to carrier..

Grtz. Bert


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
22-12-2017, 06:47 PM
Bom ordered BST Fred.

Anyone with experience from NL here?

I am curious about how this will work with dutch customs..
I understand carrier will report to tax administration..
My estimation is about 27% extra cost.
21 vat 5 import and some minor handling cost.

Guess i will pay tax and handling cost to carrier..

Grtz. Bert


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkSo... guess what the post man brought today.

Goodies from china.[emoji3][emoji3][emoji3]

Guys, thanks for recommanding Fred from BST.
Everithing looks good and well packed.

Some heavy cardboard box reinforced with multiplex all wrapped in plastic foil.


2nd attempt at pouring epoxy is underway.

Tomorrow ill visit the local tool station to go and get m5 machine taps and some nico 4.2 drills.

Also.... need to source some Alu tooling plate. for gantry.

And have some 20mm mdf cut for test fit.

Its gonna be busy holidays.

Grtz. Bert.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/7ca2a64b062b7b4b2b311cf89f9eb298.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/b81deaa24de66983d7ef5e11db575f67.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/27e06f67486fce02f767514e28603c99.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/9449893140d2ff2bb866527934dd5025.jpg

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Nickhofen
22-12-2017, 06:56 PM
Nice goodies Driftspin!
It seems that Christmas came early ;-),Merry Christmas !

charlieuk
24-12-2017, 07:52 AM
Bom ordered BST Fred.

Anyone with experience from NL here?

I am curious about how this will work with dutch customs..
I understand carrier will report to tax administration..
My estimation is about 27% extra cost.
21 vat 5 import and some minor handling cost.

Guess i will pay tax and handling cost to carrier..

Grtz. Bert


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk


What did you end up paying to your door if you don’t mind me asking?

driftspin
24-12-2017, 04:27 PM
What did you end up paying to your door if you don’t mind me asking?Well i am not sure yet.. fedex delivered... i paid Fred... But i have not been taxed yet..



I guess it will be in the +/- 1300.- euro range.

I understand sometimes you pay tax in the country where goods enter EU.

That would be belgium..


Grtz. Bert.





Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
03-01-2018, 01:52 PM
What did you end up paying to your door if you don’t mind me asking?I ended up paying 1200,- euros..

Fedex charged 10+10 euros costs +
i Payed about 31% import tax / vat on 480 usd shipped value based on attatched dispatch note.

Grtz Bert.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
06-01-2018, 01:34 PM
Top Z carriage position.


Hi guys..

I am doing 15mm plywood test fit for all Z axis alu plates before ordering.


Where did you mount your top carriage?

High or low? And why?


Grtz Berthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/9314e13d4dd69f60a4ee205137a17ccf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/fe927fbda56f94afe71bdaefeae50905.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/13e35756964d953f2f9b7d5b50ab8a05.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/83e9e8ed39d385f266c2877a050ef548.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/05dcb44a9f708ac8dff8fb04eb5b64ab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/1c1a9ceed32a1cdd27970d90effdad62.jpg

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Nr1madman
06-01-2018, 05:35 PM
I placed mine as high as I could to get stability but as low as possible to get the travel distans I wanted :)
The further apart you have them creates less leverage on the bearings, more even load..

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driftspin
23-01-2018, 04:59 PM
Hi All,


I would like your opinions on the following.

Since my Y axis ballscrew is at the rear off the gantry, i have to make a choice.

Have the fixed end of the cable chain and ball screw inside the z-axis assembly or out side.

Like this or that:

2366523666

The chain would rest on top the gantry with a simple L support screwed to the back of the gantry to allow for a chain wide enough.
Moving end of chain would connect to the top z assembly plate near the nema

I feel keeping the box that surrounds gantry as small as possible, is best for rigidity.

On the other hand i would not have to make a separate floating support system for the cable chain.
Adding more weight and vibration.

Also i think having it on inside would look much better.



Grtz Bert.

routercnc
24-01-2018, 06:47 AM
Hi Bert,

Personally structural integrity wins over cable routing every time. So I would go with the image on the left with the closer ballscrew connection. Then make the neatest job of mounting the cable chain on the back. Wouldn't worry about weight and vibration of the extra support bracket holding the cable chain.

Boyan Silyavski
28-01-2018, 07:09 AM
Make all drag chains Horizontal, not Vertical. And use bigger that you think what will work.

driftspin
15-02-2018, 05:57 PM
Hi guys,


I have found a supplier for 7075 rolled sheet.

Will rolled 7075 be flat enough for z assembly plates.

I do have an automotive cilinderhead grinder option if it pans out to be unflat.

Or would ground 5083 be the better choice..

In a small volume and suppliers compared not much price difference..


I am really drawn to the 7075 for the obvious reasons [emoji16]


Grtz Bert

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driftspin
19-02-2018, 08:00 PM
Finally progress, found a good source for 7075 milled both sides, so ordered z plates...


Need to decide on steppers now and htd pully and belts size.


Grtz Bert.




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driftspin
27-02-2018, 05:40 PM
Parts for z axis arrived today.

Looks like i have stuff to do this weekend :-)

Grtz Bert.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/0562e47aaef953195dbf2d6e4ec60a05.jpg

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
01-03-2018, 10:29 AM
Hi guys,


I have question.

I ordered c7 ballscrews from Fred with the higher spec bf bk bearings.

There are spacer rings included. those are smaller then expected. id the ring is ok, od is smaller then the dust seals of the bearing block... by about 2 mm.


Do i need seals on the angular bearings?

If so... i will contact Fred for new rings.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/f59b23006615d4ad4333e2206a7aca4a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/80cd488e1e433b25d53943f680fc8f7d.jpg

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Nickhofen
01-03-2018, 04:54 PM
No worries , you are fine!
I have the manual for those bearings but it seems that I can not attach it here, if you want it send me your email with pm.

driftspin
05-03-2018, 09:20 PM
No worries , you are fine!
I have the manual for those bearings but it seems that I can not attach it here, if you want it send me your email with pm.These are the fixed end bearings.

Took the lid of..

7002 atyn df p5 -5/-5 germany x cy-0780

Opinions?


Grtz. Berthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/3cf24ad5cc5305888e064e88860868e0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/9fa4f00a07fe4d3f187b89096e7e6946.jpg

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
07-03-2018, 04:38 PM
These are the fixed end bearings.

Took the lid of..

7002 atyn df p5 -5/-5 germany x cy-0780

Opinions?


Grtz. Berthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/3cf24ad5cc5305888e064e88860868e0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/9fa4f00a07fe4d3f187b89096e7e6946.jpg

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkOk worked al little with Fred from BST.

Something changed in their design / stock

Earlier they would ship sealed bearing and sealed blocks... In mine neither are sealed.

Fred agreed to send me new seals block vs ballscrew.


Now waiting for postman[emoji4]

Grtz Bert.

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Davek0974
07-03-2018, 06:56 PM
Makes you wonder why they would even bother putting the block together with unshielded bearings?

driftspin
07-03-2018, 10:20 PM
Makes you wonder why they would even bother putting the block together with unshielded bearings?Well he said it had something to do with a bulk order from a client and complaints about resistance from double seals and getting things mixed up.

Anyway i am glad i bought from him instead of some shady guy. Its a big advantage you guys know trust worthy sellers.

It is not how someone makes a mistake, its the way they solve stuff that sets them apart.

Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
07-03-2018, 11:27 PM
So.... i am working on z axis.

Hope to get it done soon though there is not a lot off spare time to play.



After that ... steppers belts pullies


I still have room in the design to go single or twin motors on the X axis.

I modified the motorcalcs.XLS to compensate for belt reduction 1:2 ballscrew 2010 vs stepper RPM.


Basicly 20N cutting forces @ 2300mm/min
Plenty?
5+ m/min rapids


I split the estimated total weight of the gantry for dual stepper setup calculation.
All looks acceptable in there.

So I am now half convinced twin 4nm nema23 will work ok.
But did not have no irl inertia data or torque curve for the cnc4u 4nm nema23.


uc300 has been on my mind since day 1.
Slaved x axis homing is also feature of uc300.


What questions do i need to answer to make a final choice here?

Any input is welcome .. i am not sure how to move on from here.




Grtz Bert.





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driftspin
15-03-2018, 06:18 PM
Hi all,

Picked up an empty controls cabinet today

500x700x150.

Will it do?


Grtz Bert

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JAZZCNC
15-03-2018, 08:17 PM
Hi all,

Picked up an empty controls cabinet today

500x700x150.

Will it do?


Grtz Bert

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

More than enough space.!

JAZZCNC
15-03-2018, 08:23 PM
uc300 has been on my mind since day 1.
Slaved x axis homing is also feature of uc300.


What questions do i need to answer to make a final choice here?

Any input is welcome .. i am not sure how to move on from here.

Provided you choose the Ethernet version then you won't go wrong with UC300 but to get best from it you need decent breakout board like the Ub1.

driftspin
24-03-2018, 09:29 PM
Decided and ordered.

Its gonna be 4 steppers

4x 4amp 4Nm nema23 All round : cnc4you

Does anybody have a realistic number on power needed for those?

I would like to do a dual diy toroidal transformer setup.

So 2 dual 24v transformers , dual rectifier.
dual 68volt circuit.

1 for dual x motors and
1 for the y and z motor.

Is it as simple as 2x4 Amp stepper, so 8 to 10 Amp 400 to 500VA per transformer?

Or will less power be sufficient?

1 kW sounds like a lot and ott.

I gues not many times all 4 steppers are running full throttle all the time...


Anyone?


Grtz Bert.

Also ... is there such a thing as minimum belt length?




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Davek0974
24-03-2018, 09:54 PM
Decided and ordered.

Its gonna be 4 steppers

4x 4amp 4Nm nema23 All round : cnc4you

Does anybody have a realistic number on power needed for those?

I would like to do a dual diy toroidal transformer setup.

So 2 dual 24v transformers , dual rectifier.
dual 68volt circuit.

1 for dual x motors and
1 for the y and z motor.

Is it as simple as 2x4 Amp stepper, so 8 to 10 Amp 400 to 500VA per transformer?

Or will less power be sufficient?

1 kW sounds like a lot and ott.

I gues not many times all 4 steppers are running full throttle all the time...


Anyone?


Grtz Bert.

Also ... is there such a thing as minimum belt length?




Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

I would go with a 600W psu for 4 x 4Nm motors

driftspin
24-03-2018, 10:03 PM
I would go with a 600W psu for 4 x 4Nm motorsOh ok, that is a lot less then i expected..

Thanx for that.

Grtz. Bert.






Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

Neale
25-03-2018, 08:21 AM
Yes, you don't have to add together the peak demand to give a rating if you are using a linear PSU. For one thing, as you say, the chance that all four motors will be running at full power at the same time is tiny. The second is that the load via the drivers is more like a series of short pulses than a continuous current and the smoothing capacitors can provide this pulse load very easily, and the rest of the PSU components just see the average load. In practice, a rough rule of thumb is to calculate maximum load, and use a PSU rated at about 30% less. The final point is that because of the way the drivers work, you do not actually need a very smooth well-regulated power supply (within reason). My 68V PSU has a measured 10V or so ripple under load. This does not cause any problems at all.

These points are also why a cheap switch-mode PSU is less suitable. It does not cope with peak loads very well, so it has to be over-specified to cope with the maximum peak load, not an average load.

I use a 650 VA toroidal which replaced a 500VA transformer which failed. The bigger transformer was only a couple of pounds more, as I remember, but measuring the average power consumption of the machine, I could probably have used something smaller. That's driving 4x3Nm Nema 23 steppers, max current probably about 4A per motor.

JAZZCNC
25-03-2018, 06:56 PM
Why dual transformers.? Don't see the point just adding expense for no gain. I've built many many PSU's and never had one faulty yet and that's running upto 5 motors.

I'd also just buy regulated linear 24Vdc supply it's cheaper. Doesn't make any difference just for powering switches or Boards etc and actually better for electronics because don't like flutating power.

You'd get away with 500Va but 625Va will give little spare current but you might get fuse tripping with inrush in which case just use D rated MCB.
Voltage then I'd aim to run steppers around 65-70Vdc. So you'll need to check your mains input but roughly 2 x 24Vac for series wired or 2 x 48 for parallel wired.

driftspin
25-03-2018, 11:01 PM
Why dual transformers.? Don't see the point just adding expense for no gain. I've built many many PSU's and never had one faulty yet and that's running upto 5 motors.

I'd also just buy regulated linear 24Vdc supply it's cheaper. Doesn't make any difference just for powering switches or Boards etc and actually better for electronics because don't like flutating power.

You'd get away with 500Va but 625Va will give little spare current but you might get fuse tripping with inrush in which case just use D rated MCB.
Voltage then I'd aim to run steppers around 65-70Vdc. So you'll need to check your mains input but roughly 2 x 24Vac for series wired or 2 x 48 for parallel wired.

Hi JAZZCNC.

About the 2 transformers.
I didnt know a single +/- 600VA would be enough for the 4x 4Amp 4nm steppers.

Didn't want 1.2 kw setup in a single circuit.
You mention startup current, i was thinking about short circuit fires :O




I have a single fuse D type 35amp @ 225 volts in the main panel for the house.

MCB for the shop power is now16amp B type..

Maybe dedicated in the future for the machine.

I have a cable 4x2.5mm2 + PE/screen from the house to the shop at about 25 meters.
That is 2 spare wires in my book.

So when i bend the rules a little i can run the machine related stuf from a single mcb 16amps, and the lights and other stuff from some other mcb and combine PE.

Maybe i need to install some kinda peak shaving setup [emoji16] to stop the domestic equipment like water cookers an washing machines and dryers from running at the same time...

I already have a Wago 24v DC 2Amp PSU.
UB1 says 3amps .. i know maybe later ill check if it comes close to 2 amps and upgrade

Need to do some dumpster diving for relais
and stuff.

I did some checking on voltage drop for thecy cable and it looks like 4amps @ 10meters 0.75mm2 is <2 volts.

So... one might think 4x0.75mm2 + screen is about right for everything.
Also the spindle should not top 4.5 amps per wire? Quick rule says 3fase 2amps per kw.. so about 4.5 amps at full load 2.2kw.

http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html?material=copper&wiresize=20.95&voltage=68&phase=ac&noofconductor=1&distance=30&distanceunit=feet&amperes=4&x=89&y=22

Or should i beef up the spindle a little.


Now for the DIY PSU.


bom list


http://nl.farnell.com/multicomp/mclpr100v109m40x64/cap-alu-elec-10000uf-100v-snap/dp/1903137

20.000 uF enough?

What about 2000hr@85

is that a good enough rating?



http://nl.farnell.com/hammond/1182t24/transformer-toroid-48v-625va/dp/2759999

dual 24v 625VA



http://nl.farnell.com/lcr-components/ep0880-pnf/clamp-no-flange-40mm/dp/3885320

clips.

http://nl.farnell.com/pro-power/hs402/heat-shrink-8mm-black-1-2m/dp/1256846

shrink wrap



Any critics are welcome


Grtz Bert.










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driftspin
25-03-2018, 11:32 PM
Hi JAZZCNC.

About the 2 transformers.
I didnt know a single +/- 600VA would be enough for the 4x 4Amp 4nm steppers.

Didn't want 1.2 kw setup in a single circuit.
You mention startup current, i was thinking about short circuit fires :O




I have a single fuse D type 35amp @ 225 volts in the main panel for the house.

MCB for the shop power is now16amp B type..

Maybe dedicated in the future for the machine.

I have a cable 4x2.5mm2 + PE/screen from the house to the shop at about 25 meters.
That is 2 spare wires in my book.

So when i bend the rules a little i can run the machine related stuf from a single mcb 16amps, and the lights and other stuff from some other mcb and combine PE.

Maybe i need to install some kinda peak shaving setup [emoji16] to stop the domestic equipment like water cookers an washing machines and dryers from running at the same time...

I already have a Wago 24v DC 2Amp PSU.
UB1 says 3amps .. i know maybe later ill check if it comes close to 2 amps and upgrade

Need to do some dumpster diving for relais
and stuff.

I did some checking on voltage drop for thecy cable and it looks like 4amps @ 10meters 0.75mm2 is <2 volts.

So... one might think 4x0.75mm2 + screen is about right for everything.
Also the spindle should not top 4.5 amps per wire? Quick rule says 3fase 2amps per kw.. so about 4.5 amps at full load 2.2kw.

http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html?material=copper&wiresize=20.95&voltage=68&phase=ac&noofconductor=1&distance=30&distanceunit=feet&amperes=4&x=89&y=22

Or should i beef up the spindle a little.


Now for the DIY PSU.


bom list


http://nl.farnell.com/multicomp/mclpr100v109m40x64/cap-alu-elec-10000uf-100v-snap/dp/1903137

20.000 uF enough?

What about 2000hr@85

is that a good enough rating?



http://nl.farnell.com/hammond/1182t24/transformer-toroid-48v-625va/dp/2759999

dual 24v 625VA



http://nl.farnell.com/lcr-components/ep0880-pnf/clamp-no-flange-40mm/dp/3885320

clips.

http://nl.farnell.com/pro-power/hs402/heat-shrink-8mm-black-1-2m/dp/1256846

shrink wrap



Any critics are welcome


Grtz Bert.










Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalkjust realise... spindle will do 8 or 9 amps not 4.5...

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Clive S
26-03-2018, 08:14 AM
OK
1No. https://www.rapidonline.com/vigortro...-x-25v-88-0033
some people use 24-24v secondary depends how high you mains voltage is. I don't know what your supply is? for the primary

3 No. https://www.rapidonline.com/jianghai...-4khrs-59-6175

3 No. https://www.rapidonline.com/lcr-ep08...-clamp-11-3004

1 No. https://www.rapidonline.com/dc-compo...a-600v-47-1012

With you having about 225V mains and over a 25 MTr run you could go with 25 - 25 secondary
625 Va will be more than fine I use 500 Va with 4 3.1Nm 23's with no problems
20000uf is over kill.

cy 4 core either .75 or 1mm for the spindle

JAZZCNC
26-03-2018, 05:58 PM
Hi JAZZCNC.

About the 2 transformers.
I didnt know a single +/- 600VA would be enough for the 4x 4Amp 4nm steppers.

Didn't want 1.2 kw setup in a single circuit.
You mention startup current, i was thinking about short circuit fires :O

Yes will handle it easily and your not pulling 16A because of the way drives and PSU work together. You'll be lucky if ever pull more than 6A for any period of time.
I've probably built in excess of 100 Psu's and most have run 4 x 4A motors





I have a single fuse D type 35amp @ 225 volts in the main panel for the house.

MCB for the shop power is now16amp B type..

Maybe dedicated in the future for the machine.

I have a cable 4x2.5mm2 + PE/screen from the house to the shop at about 25 meters.
That is 2 spare wires in my book.

So when i bend the rules a little i can run the machine related stuf from a single mcb 16amps, and the lights and other stuff from some other mcb and combine PE.

Maybe i need to install some kinda peak shaving setup [emoji16] to stop the domestic equipment like water cookers an washing machines and dryers from running at the same time...

16a supply is more than enough to run machine and anything attached to ie: Vac,Air etc. Again I've built lots of machines which run from a 13a supply often installed in garages or sheds working along side other appliances like Clothes Driers, Washing machines etc and never have any issues.


I already have a Wago 24v DC 2Amp PSU.
UB1 says 3amps .. i know maybe later ill check if it comes close to 2 amps and upgrade

No the UB1 only requires 0.5A to work, they only recommend 3A to cover all bases so 2A will be more than enough if only powering a few Prox switches etc.

Need to do some dumpster diving for relais
and stuff.

I did some checking on voltage drop for thecy cable and it looks like 4amps @ 10meters 0.75mm2 is <2 volts.


So... one might think 4x0.75mm2 + screen is about right for everything.

Or should i beef up the spindle a little.

0.75mm2 is fine for motors but for the spindle you'll want minimum of 1mm2.



Now for the DIY PSU.


bom list

20.000 uF enough?

What about 2000hr@85

is that a good enough rating?

No need to go so high but won't hurt. I usually use 3 x 4700uF

driftspin
27-03-2018, 07:07 AM
Thanks JAZZCNC,


So a lot is on track..

Can make my bomlist for farnell final than.


Is there an eu reseller for ub 1?

Vat/import tax is adding up...

Grtz Bert


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Clive S
27-03-2018, 09:26 AM
Bert Did you check out the rapidonline list I sent you for the power supply. post #95

driftspin
27-03-2018, 11:15 PM
Bert Did you check out the rapidonline list I sent you for the power supply. post #95

Hi Clive S,
Uh farnell vs Rapid online.... that was a quick 50% price drop...
Thanks, you just earned some beers :-)


Just checked the mains voltage
Now it is not ~225volts


It is 235.4 volts on fluke 87 V.
Oopsie +10 volts, so 24 or 25 volt secondary still?



Theory : uh was it like ....
(25+25)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 72,2 volts
(24+24)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 69.4 volts
Goal : 68volts DC

Well, rectifier steals maybe 1 volt (Vf =1.1 volt) ?

Can you please confirm? 24+24 is harder to find.



Post #95 The links are shorted and messed up somehow,
hard to handle on smart phone icw google, so on a pc now:

I had google find me the bom list you suggest.

-DC Components KBPC5006 Bridge Rectifier 50A 600V.

OK 50Amps@600volts :-) Nice

1*
-Vigortronix VTX-146-500-225 500VA Toroidal Transformer 2x115V Primary 2 x 25V
OK, uh dual primairy? 2 series 115volts=230 volts?

Do i want single 230v or dual 115v primairy, and why is that?

3*
- LCR EP0882-P 35mm Nylon Capacitor Mounting Clamp
OK


3*
- Jianghai ECS2ABZ472MT6P23550 4700uF 100V Snap-in Alum. Elect. Cap. 85° 4khrs
OK




Thanks again for this Clive S.


Grtz Bert.

Nr1madman
28-03-2018, 05:08 AM
Hello again!

Doesnt matter if you have dual 115 primaries or a single 230v. You can connect 2x115 in series to get 1x230 :)

Same with the secondaries.. you can look for 2x24v or 1x48 or 2x48v .. same thing for your application!

You might have an easier time finding the right stuff from rs online, just a tip

For example : https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/toroidal-transformers/1176071/

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Clive S
28-03-2018, 09:25 AM
Theory : uh was it like ....
(25+25)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 72,2 volts
(24+24)*sqrt 2 / 230v*235v?? = 69.4 volts
Goal : 68volts DC

Well, rectifier steals maybe 1 volt (Vf =1.1 volt) ?

Can you please confirm? 24+24 is harder to find.

Ok I am not a math person but I think you might be doing this the wrong way.

25-25 = 50 x 1.414 = 70.07 - rectifier 2 x 1.1 v = 68.5v

Single or double primary no difference, dual primary are easier to find. You won't have any trouble with 25-25 or 24-24 v sec.

Don't forget you are measuring V without load. You also said you have a 25Mtr run

Sorry about the links the forum shortened them.

driftspin
01-04-2018, 08:54 PM
Ok I am not a math person but I think you might be doing this the wrong way.

25-25 = 50 x 1.414 = 70.07 - rectifier 2 x 1.1 v = 68.5v

Single or double primary no difference, dual primary are easier to find. You won't have any trouble with 25-25 or 24-24 v sec.

Don't forget you are measuring V without load. You also said you have a 25Mtr run

Sorry about the links the forum shortened them.Hi Clive S ...

I was just compensating for the raised mains voltage 235 vs 230...

So what about the drives.
I understand leadshine does not manufacture am882 no more ? Where do those am882's come from then?
Good / bad clones?
Any reputable place to buy them ?

So... can one use the uc300 eth with gcode to control spindle speed over 0-10v from the ub1 ?

Is uc software licence bound to the motioncontroller or to the pc hardware?


Grtz Bert.



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Clive S
01-04-2018, 10:02 PM
Bert I have had to much sauce tonight to be of any use. But there are plenty of drives to go for have you seen these:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2DM860H-2-Phase-Stepper-Driver-32-bit-DSP-control-AC30V-80V-DC40V-110VDC/202034368351?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

and then you have the AM806 drives

driftspin
01-04-2018, 10:59 PM
Ok worked al little with Fred from BST.

Something changed in their design / stock

Earlier they would ship sealed bearing and sealed blocks... In mine neither are sealed.

Fred agreed to send me new seals block vs ballscrew.


Now waiting for postman[emoji4]

Grtz Bert.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkOk so Fred is really a good guy,

I received the replacement seals this week.

So now my bearings are protected.

So for anyone that recieved bf bk type bearings from Fred lately.. it dont hurt to check ...
You should have sealed bearings inside or good seals in the bearingblocks.

I had neither.



Grtz Bert.







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Nickhofen
02-04-2018, 07:11 AM
Bert can you post a pic with the old seals and with the new ones on the bearings?

driftspin
02-04-2018, 08:17 AM
Bert can you post a pic with the old seals and with the new ones on the bearings?Hi Nickhofen,


I can post the before.
I can make a few pictures of the after later today.

Seal vs ring.
Look at the gap between the seal and ring.

And the opened bearingblock.
No seal in the bearing.

Fred explained there was change in his inventorie... sealed and non sealed bearings. And a customer that did not want the bearing block seals to touch the rings because of the resistance this has.

This was a big customer and he had left over stock.



Grtz Bert






https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/542177b9d8baebdcce6929a40c8b9474.jpg

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/85ab28a612cfc5e213f4233663512ce4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/cf1bcdb6e12fd047f1fbfc0ade3ca620.jpg

The last picture shows the old seal icw rings from 20mm ballscrew.

And the ring in the bearingblock with a new seal

driftspin
02-04-2018, 08:27 AM
Bert I have had to much sauce tonight to be of any use. But there are plenty of drives to go for have you seen these:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2DM860H-2-Phase-Stepper-Driver-32-bit-DSP-control-AC30V-80V-DC40V-110VDC/202034368351?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

and then you have the AM806 drivesYes, Nr1madman has the same steppers from cnc4you as i.

And he actually bought those.
Do those have stall protection? I also have the dual X setup.


I know the am882 is tested and proven, so the safe route.

I have no preference yet. Did not do enough research yet. Guess i settled for the am882.

Grtz. Bert.

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Nr1madman
02-04-2018, 08:49 AM
Yes, Nr1madman has the same steppers from cnc4you as i.

And he actually bought those.
Do those have stall protection? I also have the dual X setup.


I know the am882 is tested and proven, so the safe route.

I have no preference yet. Did not do enough research yet. Guess i settled for the am882.

Grtz. Bert.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk:D

I don't think they have stalldetect.
And I don't think stalldetect is as safe as everyone says ;)

The 2dm860 seems to have had an upgrade. The one that is linked to have a different cover than mine and seem to have more dip switches than mine with functions that I can only change with software (and cable)

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driftspin
02-04-2018, 10:18 AM
:D

I don't think they have stalldetect.
And I don't think stalldetect is as safe as everyone says ;)

The 2dm860 seems to have had an upgrade. The one that is linked to have a different cover than mine and seem to have more dip switches than mine with functions that I can only change with software (and cable)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via TapatalkHi Nr1madman,


Did you go for ac or dc, and why?

Ac 70 volt or so is also a standard transformer.

maybe this one.
https://www.rapidonline.com/vigortronix-vtx-146-500-235-toroidal-transformer-500va-0-35v-88-3839

For Dc it says over 100 volts.



Grtz Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/40d0e654fff158adf78050121bc273c4.jpg

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Nr1madman
02-04-2018, 10:50 AM
I planned for ~68-70v dc but since I got 4 of those drivers I skipped rectifier and caps and just connected ac.
If I had planned for this from the beginning I could have gotten a higher voltage transformer :)

But if the drives turn out to be substandard I can still use my current transformer to make a dc supply for AM882 or EM drivers..

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JAZZCNC
02-04-2018, 11:48 AM
And I don't think stall detect is as safe as everyone says ;)

Not true Stall detect works very well when operating within it's parameters. What people misunderstand is that it only works above 300Rpm which really is where you want it to work when motors are spinning fast and where torque is lower.

Nr1madman
02-04-2018, 02:02 PM
Not true Stall detect works very well when operating within it's parameters. What people misunderstand is that it only works above 300Rpm which really is where you want it to work when motors are spinning fast and where torque is lower.I realize you are correct, I just haven't gotten into those speeds yet as I'm still testing, trying and learning :)
300rpm with 10mm pitch screws is 3000mm/min. That's more positioning for me and less routing. I do hope that changes for me as the parts would spit out faster..

But that wouldn't help if you crash into a clamp or something during acceleration at say 50rpm, then I would still get the possibility of losing "square"

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JAZZCNC
02-04-2018, 03:01 PM
But that wouldn't help if you crash into a clamp or something during acceleration at say 50rpm, then I would still get the possibility of losing "square"

Well that depends really. The drives have fault feature when tripped for any of the protections, ie: current voltage etc and usually if you hit a clamp or anything strong enought to stall the motor it will fault one of the drives protections anyway. In which case provided you included the fault signal in your E-stop circuit your still safe.

However I can tell you that if you stall the motors other than hitting something then it nearly always happens at higher than 300 rpm, usually when doing rapid moves.

driftspin
02-04-2018, 04:48 PM
Well that depends really. The drives have fault feature when tripped for any of the protections, ie: current voltage etc and usually if you hit a clamp or anything strong enought to stall the motor it will fault one of the drives protections anyway. In which case provided you included the fault signal in your E-stop circuit your still safe.

However I can tell you that if you stall the motors other than hitting something then it nearly always happens at higher than 300 rpm, usually when doing rapid moves.It is all in the future for me...

I am still stuck in hardware mode...


But made some progress today..

Grtz. Berthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180402/6ad37d84c9c9e96aa2987ffea1318f8e.jpg

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driftspin
08-04-2018, 05:09 PM
Well that depends really. The drives have fault feature when tripped for any of the protections, ie: current voltage etc and usually if you hit a clamp or anything strong enought to stall the motor it will fault one of the drives protections anyway. In which case provided you included the fault signal in your E-stop circuit your still safe.

However I can tell you that if you stall the motors other than hitting something then it nearly always happens at higher than 300 rpm, usually when doing rapid moves.Hi all

I want to order some drag chain.
What did i forget..?

Things to put in the drag chain.

Ground wire 4mm2 6mm
Spindle cy 4x1.5 mm 9.6mm
y home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
z home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
y stepper cy 4x075 7.1mm
z stepper cy 4x0.75 7.1mm



Spindle coolingpump/fan cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
or
Supply / return line spindle cooling 2x 8mm

compressed air line 8mm
coolant line 8mm

Control valve air/mist/ coolant cy 4x0.75 7.1 mm, do you guys put that in the controls cabinet?



Miscelanious.. dustshoe retract.. power for camera, spindle illumination cy 4x0.75 7.1mm

Maybe combine all controls like valves, spindle light, mist/air, coolingpump / fan etc in 1 cable.



What did i forget?


Grtz Bert.








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Nr1madman
08-04-2018, 05:50 PM
What did i forget?


Grtz Bert.


You have thought of alot more than me ;)
Good planning!
In my mind you have everything but think about that you want everything to fit comfortably in the chain so make it a little bigger than you calculate that you need :)

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driftspin
08-04-2018, 06:18 PM
You have thought of alot more than me ;)
Good planning!
In my mind you have everything but think about that you want everything to fit comfortably in the chain so make it a little bigger than you calculate that you need :)

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Yes bigger, i read that somewhere before.

Thing is ... above say 18x50 mm it gets expensive quickly.

I need about 2 pieces 2 meters total.. not sure about z axis .. maybe just a rubber tube.

Did you guys fill the chain multi layer?
Or should all cables be beside each other.

Maybe air/coolant lines on the outside ?

Grtz Bert.



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driftspin
09-04-2018, 09:37 PM
Ok so,


Cable chain,

Will this fit?


24040


Looks like it is gonna work.



Things to put in the drag chain.

Ground wire 4mm2 6mm
Spindle cy 4x1.5 mm 9.6mm

Home/stop combined
y/z home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
X1,X2 home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm


y stepper cy 4x075 7.1mm
z stepper cy 4x0.75 7.1mm

Spare 1 cy 4x075 7.1mm
Spare 2 cy 4x075 7.1mm

Supply / return line spindle cooling 2x 8mm

compressed air line 6mm
coolant line 6mm


Grtz. Bert

Nr1madman
10-04-2018, 07:23 AM
Ok so,


Cable chain,

Will this fit?


24040


Looks like it is gonna work.



Things to put in the drag chain.

Ground wire 4mm2 6mm
Spindle cy 4x1.5 mm 9.6mm

Home/stop combined
y/z home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
X1,X2 home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm


y stepper cy 4x075 7.1mm
z stepper cy 4x0.75 7.1mm

Spare 1 cy 4x075 7.1mm
Spare 2 cy 4x075 7.1mm

Supply / return line spindle cooling 2x 8mm

compressed air line 6mm
coolant line 6mm


Grtz. Bert

Awesome job!
Have you thought about what happens in the cable chain radius?
I think there has to be some "air" for the cables to move..? But I might be wrong :)
I'm thinking the cables in the outer layer needs to get longer than the ones on the inside...?

No limitswitches? From what I understand softlimits are ok for some...


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Clive S
10-04-2018, 08:03 AM
Things to put in the drag chain.

Ground wire 4mm2 6mm
Spindle cy 4x1.5 mm 9.6mm

Home/stop combined
y/z home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm
X1,X2 home switches cy 4x0.75 7.1mm

Bert.
Why do you need a ground wire in the drag chain, also if you want to use cy cable for the switches why not use 3 core 0.5mm. I just have 4 mm air lines in mine and find it ok. You could also use 1.0 mm to the spindle as it is 3 phase and the 2.2kw will be split between the cables.

Just a thought.

JAZZCNC
10-04-2018, 05:33 PM
Won't get that lot inside 18 x 50.!!
Doesn't work like your nice neat drawing and you'll never get them to lay like that in reality. You'll need at least 25 x 56 and even then I'm not sure it will all fit easily.

driftspin
10-04-2018, 08:24 PM
Bert.
Why do you need a ground wire in the drag chain, also if you want to use cy cable for the switches why not use 3 core 0.5mm. I just have 4 mm air lines in mine and find it ok. You could also use 1.0 mm to the spindle as it is 3 phase and the 2.2kw will be split between the cables.

Just a thought.

Hi Clive S,



4mm2 earth (functional, not for protection)

Since all metal runs on bearings on these machines.... you want to make sure no (fault) current will ever pass through them to ground.

All moving parts are so inter connected without the stepper or signal cables.

4wire cy home
I have combined y and z home in 1 cable.
+,-,y,z


Also x1 home and x2 home are combined.
+,-,x1,x2


Yes i can probably do cy 4x0.5mm2 for sensors.


I am looking for a single cable type for ease of ordering, single item to stock and just having a single package of +/- 50m item making it less expensive.



I have no clue on how much air i need glad to hear 4 will do.
Need to find out before buying a suitable compressor (will a double or quad airbrush silent type work?)


like one of these:

6bar 25 liter 60 db

https://www.hbm-machines.com/producten/compressoren/olieloze-compressoren/hbm-4-liter-professionele-low-noise-airbrush-compressor


About spindle cooling.
Do any of you run a pc cpu cooling type radiator/pump on the z assembly?

Dont see the real advantage of running the cooling lines towards the controls cabinet.
And do the same thing there.

Running 12 volts for pump and fan to the z assembly beats 2x 8mm cooling lines in my opinion.


About the vfd.. spindle 1.0 mm2

Is it 230volt 3phase out right?

This formula should then resolve amps

P=V3*U line*I line*cos phi

so

2200=1.73*230V*6.9A*0.8

So 6.9amps?
1mm2 should cover that than.


Any thoughts?



Grtz Bert.





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driftspin
10-04-2018, 09:01 PM
Won't get that lot inside 18 x 50.!!
Doesn't work like your nice neat drawing and you'll never get them to lay like that in reality. You'll need at least 25 x 56 and even then I'm not sure it will all fit easily.Hi Jazz,

I did this drawing to hear from people here who have actually done a drag chain since i have not. [emoji3][emoji3]

So thank you all for getting involved again and saving beginners like me from obvious mistakes.

So.
The drawing is worst case and 2 spare cables. 4mm2 wasnt drawn.

Ok recap.

I hope i can drop 2 coolant 8mm lines and replace it with 12volt line.

Q1
I would like to know about pc pump radiator setup on z assembly for spindle cooling, is it an ok option?

i can drop from 1.5 to 1.0 mm2 for spindle.
i can drop from 6mm air to 4mm

I have 2 cy 4x0.75 spares drawn.


Q2
Does one stack cables in a dragchain or should it be avoided?

Grtz Bert

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Clive S
10-04-2018, 11:07 PM
Hi Clive S,

I have no clue on how much air i need glad to hear 4 will do.
Need to find out before buying a suitable compressor (will a double or quad airbrush silent type work?)

About spindle cooling.
Do any of you run a pc cpu cooling type radiator/pump on the z assembly?

About the vfd.. spindle 1.0 mm2

Grtz Bert.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk



I use something like this on the back of the gantry with less that 1 ltr of water. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/80mm-aluminium-radiator-fan-included-water-cooling/866247975.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.1.11962b5fuxm RxE&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10 065_10151_10344_10068_10130_5722815_10324_10342_10 547_10325_10343_10340_10341_10548_5722915_10698_10 697_5722615_10696_10192_10190_10084_10083_10618_10 307_10301_10303_5722715_10059_5723015_10184_10534_ 308_100031_10103_441_10624_10623_10622_5722515_106 21_10620,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_4_ppcChannel&algo_expid=6acfa39b-fa5c-43d8-86c9-63a09cd6c713-0&algo_pvid=6acfa39b-fa5c-43d8-86c9-63a09cd6c713&transAbTest=ae803_1&priceBeautifyAB=0

but you can get one with a little bigger and fit a 120mm fan.

Re the VFD 2.2Kw is at the mains side so at the motor side rough figures prb. about 4A per phase ish.

re the 4mm tube I find that more than enough flow. I have it at about 8 bar and regulate it down on the gantry.

routercnc
11-04-2018, 08:13 AM
For the drag chains:
My old machine had drag chains down both sides. On one side I ran the signal cables and on the other side I ran the stepper cables and power lines (pump, light etc.). This was to keep them separate for interference. I've seen others groups them all together so maybe not required but it would give you double the space. Each one was quite large if I remember correctly, maybe 50x20 or so?

For the cooling:
An earlier version of my old machine had the radiator on Z axis and that worked fine but did not look very nice with all the tubing sticking out. I moved it to the end of the gantry which was better.
On my next machine I'm planning to run the cooling pipes all the way through the drag chains and off the machine to a reservoir tank (no radiator) as I found the spindle got barely warm even with the fan off (and sometime the pump off as well for small jobs). I will rely on the thermal inertia of a much bigger tank of water. Easy to add further cooling if it does not work but experience of the old machine suggests it will be OK.

Compressors:
I'm no compressor expert but when I last looked at them you could either have quiet and low flow rate, or noisy and high flow rate. If you wanted higher flow and reasonable noise you needed to get multiple cylinders, belt drive but they were a lot more money.

driftspin
11-04-2018, 01:10 PM
I use something like this on the back of the gantry with less that 1 ltr of water. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/80mm-aluminium-radiator-fan-included-water-cooling/866247975.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.1.11962b5fuxm RxE&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10 065_10151_10344_10068_10130_5722815_10324_10342_10 547_10325_10343_10340_10341_10548_5722915_10698_10 697_5722615_10696_10192_10190_10084_10083_10618_10 307_10301_10303_5722715_10059_5723015_10184_10534_ 308_100031_10103_441_10624_10623_10622_5722515_106 21_10620,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_4_ppcChannel&algo_expid=6acfa39b-fa5c-43d8-86c9-63a09cd6c713-0&algo_pvid=6acfa39b-fa5c-43d8-86c9-63a09cd6c713&transAbTest=ae803_1&priceBeautifyAB=0

but you can get one with a little bigger and fit a 120mm fan.

Re the VFD 2.2Kw is at the mains side so at the motor side rough figures prb. about 4A per phase ish.

re the 4mm tube I find that more than enough flow. I have it at about 8 bar and regulate it down on the gantry.Ok so..

So i am reading between the line, you are saying the vfd does 400 volts secundary.. That is even better actually.

Routercnc
You say you moved the radiator to the end of the gantry. Pure cosmetics?
I dont want to design in a direction that is some how flawed... or less desirable for know reasons.

Dual dragchains might do the trick also.
need to look in to that.

Ok so i will first reduce size on the diameters for vfd cable and air/mist lines.
After that i can measure cable length per type. see if i can get to 50% or so fill rate for the dragchain. if no i have to bite the bullit and go bigger.


Grtz. Bert


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routercnc
11-04-2018, 02:01 PM
Yes, moved the radiator just for cosmetics. Worked fine where it was, weight was not a problem on the Z axis. But radiator was 120 mm size with fan and pipes sticking out so did not look so nice there.

Clive S
11-04-2018, 03:31 PM
Q1
I would like to know about pc pump radiator setup on z assembly for spindle cooling, is it an ok option?


240482404924050
The black tube into the reg. is feeding the air into the blue water filter with WD in it (just behind the gantry) and also to blow the chips away. You can see the cooling water 1Ltr on the gantry.

The fan is 120mm

Boyan Silyavski
11-04-2018, 07:13 PM
ARKO 22x80 R60
(http://www.cable-tracks.com/)

This is a very good cable chain, better than the chinese.Yes i use it on my machine, and yes i have similar chinese ones. its better. And a servo controller connector passes through it. And the price is right.

driftspin
11-04-2018, 11:12 PM
ARKO 22x80 R60
(http://www.cable-tracks.com/)

This is a very good cable chain, better than the chinese.Yes i use it on my machine, and yes i have similar chinese ones. its better. And a servo controller connector passes through it. And the price is right.Hi Bouyan,

Thank you for the suggestion.
I will look it up on a pc soon ... smartphone screws up the site.

Grtz Bert.



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driftspin
11-04-2018, 11:21 PM
240482404924050
The black tube into the reg. is feeding the air into the blue water filter with WD in it (just behind the gantry) and also to blow the chips away. You can see the cooling water 1Ltr on the gantry.

The fan is 120mmOk,

I realise now i need a solution for connectionbox sensor to cy cable.

Thanks for the pictures.

I am gonna think about through gantry cable ways for x1 x2 sensors..

Some extra planning.

Grtz Bert.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

driftspin
28-04-2018, 09:29 AM
I use something like this on the back of the gantry with less that 1 ltr of water. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/80mm-aluminium-radiator-fan-included-water-cooling/866247975.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.1.11962b5fuxm RxE&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10 065_10151_10344_10068_10130_5722815_10324_10342_10 547_10325_10343_10340_10341_10548_5722915_10698_10 697_5722615_10696_10192_10190_10084_10083_10618_10 307_10301_10303_5722715_10059_5723015_10184_10534_ 308_100031_10103_441_10624_10623_10622_5722515_106 21_10620,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_4_ppcChannel&algo_expid=6acfa39b-fa5c-43d8-86c9-63a09cd6c713-0&algo_pvid=6acfa39b-fa5c-43d8-86c9-63a09cd6c713&transAbTest=ae803_1&priceBeautifyAB=0

but you can get one with a little bigger and fit a 120mm fan.

Re the VFD 2.2Kw is at the mains side so at the motor side rough figures prb. about 4A per phase ish.

re the 4mm tube I find that more than enough flow. I have it at about 8 bar and regulate it down on the gantry.Hi Clive S,

Do you think the leadshine dm856 will do for my setup?

http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products&category=stepper-products&producttype=stepper-drives&series=DM&model=DM856


Or will i gain lots in buying am822 drives.
I am not sure i can still buy them oem ... Though somebody said there is nothing wrong with a good copy.

They look alright @80v /5.6 amps

I have the cnc4you 4amp 4nm nema23 steppers.

Grtz. Bert

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Clive S
28-04-2018, 09:42 AM
I have no experience of them but they look OK I see they only go up to about 5.6A might be getting a bit close!!

I have purchase three of these:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2DM860H-2-Phase-Stepper-Driver-32-bit-DSP-control-AC30V-80V-DC40V-110VDC/202034368351?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51002%26meid%3D854dc3ee537e4c 89b2c6a615b8b0581f%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3 D15%26sd%3D202034368351%26itm%3D202034368351&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ac0424ea3-4abf-11e8-87fa-74dbd180faa7%7Cparentrq%3A0b68c61b1630a992433b64de fff77453%7Ciid%3A1

But not tested yet.

driftspin
28-04-2018, 01:45 PM
I have no experience of them but they look OK I see they only go up to about 5.6A might be getting a bit close!!

I have purchase three of these:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2DM860H-2-Phase-Stepper-Driver-32-bit-DSP-control-AC30V-80V-DC40V-110VDC/202034368351?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51002%26meid%3D854dc3ee537e4c 89b2c6a615b8b0581f%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3 D15%26sd%3D202034368351%26itm%3D202034368351&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ac0424ea3-4abf-11e8-87fa-74dbd180faa7%7Cparentrq%3A0b68c61b1630a992433b64de fff77453%7Ciid%3A1

But not tested yet.Hi Clive S,

I am unsure what using 4 out of 5.5 amps will do to the drives life time.
25% headroom sounds ok.


I do like the idea of having an alarm ouput also.

Do you have any idea on when you have the drives up and running?


Grtz. Bert.



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Clive S
28-04-2018, 02:51 PM
Hi Clive S,
I am unsure what using 4 out of 5.5 amps will do to the drives life time.
25% headroom sounds ok.
I do like the idea of having an alarm ouput also.
Do you have any idea on when you have the drives up and running?
Grtz. Bert.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

No sorry the control box is built but the mill it is going on will take some time. I purchased the above because am882's are getting hard to find.

driftspin
29-04-2018, 08:28 AM
No sorry the control box is built but the mill it is going on will take some time. I purchased the above because am882's are getting hard to find.Hi Clive S,


I have been researching some more.

Do the spec of stepper memtion rms or peak amps? Looks like the 2dm856 driver is rated 4 amp rms ...... 5.5 peak.

https://cnc4you.co.uk/resources/Stepper%20Motor%20Nema%2023%2060BYGH401-03%204Nm.pdf

Are those rms values?
Ill send an email to cnc4you and find out.

Grtz. Bert.

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JAZZCNC
29-04-2018, 09:32 AM
Are those rms values?
Ill send an email to cnc4you and find out.


They are Peak ratings, most motor ratings if data sheet doesn't show both will be the peak rating.

Also, I have some of the 2DM860H but only tested on the bench at the minute. however, they seem nice smooth with low motor heating even after being stood for hours. This is always a good sign because lose motor sat on bench is open to resonance and the drive is obviously handling any resonance because nice smooth operation.
Will tell better when put on a machine but so far I wouldn't tell the difference between these and AM882.

Nr1madman
29-04-2018, 10:33 AM
They are Peak ratings, most motor ratings if data sheet doesn't show both will be the peak rating.

Also, I have some of the 2DM860H but only tested on the bench at the minute. however, they seem nice smooth with low motor heating even after being stood for hours. This is always a good sign because lose motor sat on bench is open to resonance and the drive is obviously handling any resonance because nice smooth operation.
Will tell better when put on a machine but so far I wouldn't tell the difference between these and AM882.

Awesome! Awaiting your final judgement since I have those drivers :)
Have you altered any settings via software or only dip switches?

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driftspin
30-04-2018, 10:20 AM
Hi Clive S,


I have been researching some more.

Do the spec of stepper memtion rms or peak amps? Looks like the 2dm856 driver is rated 4 amp rms ...... 5.5 peak.

https://cnc4you.co.uk/resources/Stepper%20Motor%20Nema%2023%2060BYGH401-03%204Nm.pdf

Are those rms values?
Ill send an email to cnc4you and find out.

Grtz. Bert.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkOk so answer of CNC4YOU... it is peak.. 3 amps RMS.

I guess ill order the leadshine dm856 then.

Save a few bucks to spend on some other things.

Grtz Bert.


Now i have to find some other way to hook up a big flashing red alarm light.



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driftspin
30-04-2018, 10:26 AM
Hi JAZZCNC,

Peak it is... so... i can save a few bucks.

Thanks Bert.


They are Peak ratings, most motor ratings if data sheet doesn't show both will be the peak rating.

Also, I have some of the 2DM860H but only tested on the bench at the minute. however, they seem nice smooth with low motor heating even after being stood for hours. This is always a good sign because lose motor sat on bench is open to resonance and the drive is obviously handling any resonance because nice smooth operation.
Will tell better when put on a machine but so far I wouldn't tell the difference between these and AM882.

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driftspin
11-05-2018, 07:57 PM
Hi Guys,

I would like some spindle buying advice.

What spindle is ok?

http://r.ebay.com/yiK93w

or

http://r.ebay.com/IqnGLI

or

http://r.ebay.com/VvZdsW


Looks like i want the taishi one?



Grtz Bert?

Clive S
11-05-2018, 11:12 PM
Hi Guys,

I would like some spindle buying advice.

What spindle is ok?

http://r.ebay.com/yiK93w

or

http://r.ebay.com/IqnGLI

or

http://r.ebay.com/VvZdsW


Looks like i want the taishi one?



Grtz Bert?

In my opinion the bottom one is fine http://r.ebay.com/VvZdsW BUT always check the parameters in the vfd before you run it. As they are sometimes wrong.

Nickhofen
12-05-2018, 07:53 AM
Huan Yang VFD with Taishi spindle seems to be the best pack according the people at the forums.
No matter what spindle you decide to buy just make sure it has four bearings at Clive has suggested!

Clive S
12-05-2018, 02:27 PM
Huan Yang VFD with Taishi spindle seems to be the best pack according the people at the forums.
No matter what spindle you decide to buy just make sure it has four bearings at Clive has suggested!

Its the vfd that needs to be the correct one.

Nickhofen
12-05-2018, 03:41 PM
I didn't write it right so clearly for someone to understand I guess. :-)



I am referring to something that you have notice so many other time to others and to me also,about the four bearing spindle been better than those with three or two.
Of course the vfd must be set up before run mine came with wrong parameters also but the seller provide me with the data on email how to put the correct parameters on the vfd.
Sorry for the inconvenience!

Clive S
12-05-2018, 03:53 PM
Sorry for the inconvenience!No its no problem Nick. Trouble is there are a couple of different VFD's that look the same but are completely different inside. You can tell by the front panel. Yes you are correct some time they have the wrong params. set.

driftspin
13-05-2018, 07:50 PM
Ok so i know what to order.

Thanks guys.


Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
15-05-2018, 09:14 PM
Ok so i know what to order.

Thanks guys.


Grtz Bert.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkSo, i have been on a shopping spree.
Painfull process :-)

Unregulated psu 500va 68v

Vfd 2.2kw
spindle 2.2 kw

WC pump (12v dc pc style)
WC radiator 80mm (12v dc pc style)

Clamp 80mm
Collet set 6 pcs .. 2 4 6 8 10 12

uc300eth
2 very cheap 5 axis bob. for now. maybe ub1 later
drivers 4x dm856
5 proximity switches 6-36v NPN

pulleys
belts

5 junction boxes
20 or so glands
cy cable 4x1

6mm airline
some 10mm pvc coolant hose.

3m 15x50 dragchain



Stuff to buy:

2mm? allan key to lock the ballscrewnut in place.
Did you guys make a flat spot on the ballscrews for more grubscrew grip?


UCCNC
Any suggestions on the pc specs?
It will just be the cnc machine pc.


Cad software will run on separate machine. Nvidia graphics icm F360?



Router bits, I need suggestions on a starter kit :-) for these materials.

Aluminum,
mdf,
soft / hardwood.


And yes steel 8-), just for the sake of testing if it is capable. lets break some bits.




Grtz Bert.




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Nr1madman
16-05-2018, 04:41 AM
I have no answers for you, just want to cheer you on ;)
Did you order from China or EU?
Just wondering about delivery times :)

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driftspin
16-05-2018, 06:09 AM
I have no answers for you, just want to cheer you on ;)
Did you order from China or EU?
Just wondering about delivery times :)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via TapatalkHi nr1madman,

Well eh only spindle/vfd is from a Germany warehouse. But still China.

Steppers from UK/ Still China i guess.

Belts from US i think.

Fastners nuts bolts and small tools, local home improvement (Hornbach) store and places like Toolstation.

Cant believe there is no profitable production /distribution possible anymore in Europe.


Ok.

Every thing else is from China directly.
Ebay, Aliexpress.


Some stuff like linear only took 1 week after "shipped" notice.. Carrier GLS.
Tax through invoice after delivery.

Most "free shipping" goods take 12- 15 working days.

Now my drives , bobs, spindle, vfd, 80mm bracket have not arrived yet... so.

I hope to finish fabricating soon.. that is... weeks.


After that wiring.


Grtz Bert.

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Nr1madman
16-05-2018, 07:48 AM
Haha I know the feeling!
Shipping to Sweden from China is usually 30-40 days. Enough time to forget you ordered something :)

I love the "EU warehouse" deals.
Fast shipping, no tax and China prices! Unbeatable

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driftspin
24-05-2018, 10:34 PM
Happy day today.

I recieved a few items today.

VFD
Spindle
80mm bracket
Drives.

So.

Wiring can now start.

I need oppinions.

Will this layout work.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180524/0f0217fdb8e88d2eeeacd1340635bd91.jpg



So basically the idea is to keep the vfd down right and keep wiring short and straight out the box not interfering with other wiring.

Have the 70v dc close to the drives.


And the 5 v and 24v dc top left near the uc and 5 axis bob stuff.
Still need to source 5vdc psu.
Did any of you use usb type a smartphone charger for a psu on UC ?


Anyway
High power wiring lower section

Low power upper section.


Tried to do something smart with a channel for hot air straight outside somewhere in the middle on the right but ran in to other problems when doing that.

I want to create airflow from left to right.
Need to figure that out.

12vdc adapter is for spindle and cabinet cooling.




Only low power thing together in cable tray with shielded stepper cables is homing and safety and probe.

I think the on/of pump relais will for now turn on a relay.. to switch the 12v dc spindle cooling. and maybe the vfd for now.



I plan to hook up the stepper cables directly on to the drives.


Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
26-05-2018, 07:49 PM
So i ordered this simple 5 axis bob.

https://goo.gl/images/igEgTX

Leadshine manual says put 2k resistors in series.

Anyway, 4 axis enable pulse and dir 3 resistors
Maybe order 3 more for 5th axis.


Did you guys use a resistorbank for this ?



Grtz Berthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180526/10fe7133cd7974fd1cbb1f0bd06bae09.jpg

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Doddy
27-05-2018, 08:36 AM
So i ordered this simple 5 axis bob.

Leadshine manual says put 2k resistors in series.

Anyway, 4 axis pulse and dir 8 resistors
Maybe order 2 more for 5th axis.


Did you guys use a resistorbank for this ?


[/IMG]

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You bought a UC300eth for the controller?, the supply, and outputs from this are 5V and you do not require the use of resistors. Okay, you're connecting this to the 5-axis BoB - that will also require a 5V supply, and the motor outputs from that will be 5V level (the BoB may have a 12-24V input to supply the PWM 0-10V spindle speed controller (though I can't see any evidence of the circuitry for this on the image linked) - but will also require a 5V supply for the on board logic devices). Again - no need for resistors.

My words of caution on that BoB - there's no evidence of opto-isolated inputs on that BoB - which leads me to believe that all inputs (from switchgear, limits, e-stops etc) must also be referenced to a 5V supply.

Doddy
27-05-2018, 09:37 AM
Hmm, just watched the video - he talks of the common line on the motor outputs being connected to CW+ and CP+, which is not my instinctive understanding of the way BoBs normally work (and I've just googled a couple of schematics to confirm) - it's worth - before wiring things up - just checking with either power on the board, or continuity-checking on the board, whether the common pin on the driver outputs are connected to +5 (as in the video description) or 0V (as in the schematics that I've seen). Also, I found this link https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30369.0;attach=412 90 which also suggests the similarly-looking board (under all the dust) that the common is 0V.

Without the board I can't claim either is right or wrong, but with the uncertainty presented I'd check where the common is connected - Just try a continuity check between common and 0V, then common and 5V - if the 0V line presents the lowest (near-zero) ohm resistance then the wiring on the video is wrong - you'd connect COM to CW- and CP-, and the pulse/direction signals to CW+ and CP+.

driftspin
27-05-2018, 11:06 AM
You bought a UC300eth for the controller?, the supply, and outputs from this are 5V and you do not require the use of resistors. Okay, you're connecting this to the 5-axis BoB - that will also require a 5V supply, and the motor outputs from that will be 5V level (the BoB may have a 12-24V input to supply the PWM 0-10V spindle speed controller (though I can't see any evidence of the circuitry for this on the image linked) - but will also require a 5V supply for the on board logic devices). Again - no need for resistors.

My words of caution on that BoB - there's no evidence of opto-isolated inputs on that BoB - which leads me to believe that all inputs (from switchgear, limits, e-stops etc) must also be referenced to a 5V supply.Doddy thank you for your explanation.

Please verify if i understand you correctly and false or true the below.


1 -
Pulse, dir, enable, from uc to 5 axis bob is 5 volt level. based on 5volt supply circuit to bob/uc.


2-
External psu connection 12/24vdc to bob is for 0-10volt /pwm only.


3-
Estop / axis end switches.
I have 24vdc volt power supply which will be used to power the e-stop circuit / relais.

1 free contact on e-stop relais will connect to bob e-stop pin / bob gnd.


4-
Homing.

LJ8A3-2-Z/BX
These proximity switches are NPN.


Now because they run off a higher voltage separate psu i have to connect 5 volt ground to 24volt ground or they will not work icm with 5axis bob inputs.


This worries me a little since i thought the bob would be 24v on the inputs for homing
based on the applied external psu.

I have read on this forum 24v signals are preferred for interference reasons.

5-
I read your warning about the opto isolation, this worries me to.


Having a € 175,- motion controller i.c.m. with a € 5,- bob that does not protect the controller... does not make sense.

Please comment on the above.


Grtz. Bert.











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Doddy
27-05-2018, 12:01 PM
Doddy thank you for your explanation.

Please verify if i understand you correctly and false or true the below.


Firstly, you're asking questions on a BoB who's design is somewhat unknown to me, If you have a URL to the actual user manual for the BoB that will help an awful lot in removing uncertainty, however, many of these are supplied without such detail. In the absence of this design data here's my logic behind the conversation to-date:-

Examining the content of the BoB's component layer - there is no evidence of additional components mounted on the opposite side (e.g. through-hole pins), which leads me to suspect that, the usually obvious, opto-isolators, are not included as part of this design. There looks to be three logic devices - pin-counts support the usual combination - 2x 74xx245 octal driver devices (of whichever technology family - HC, HCT, LS, etc). These are almost always driven from a 5V supply (which is compatible with the UC300eth and parallel ports in the PC). You would need these 2 devices to give the 5V buffering for the 2x5 (=10) motor drives, presumably the 11th being the common enable to the stepper drivers, another for the spindle relay - in fact, this is supported by the silk-screening on the board - 12 outputs. The smaller 14-pin device I would guess at something like a 74xx13 device - a hex Schmitt-trigger inverter device, which would support upto 6 inputs - 4 we know already for the IN1-4 inputs. My guess is the remaining 2 gates unconnected. The choice of a 74xx13 would be intelligent (as well as common) as these afford some noise immunity on the incoming signals.

What's left on the board that's visible?, an SMD transistor that will be used to switch the relay, a PTH diode (1N4148?) for back-emf protection on the relay coil, a couple of LEDs - I guess power, and spindle on/off, discrete resistors for the LEDs and the base-drive for the transistor; some SIL resistor packages for pull-up, or pull-down (can't tell) on the inputs to the board, and a smattering of decoupling capacitors. That's pretty much it.

No on-board regulation and a requirement to source the 5V supply from the USB connector.

No charge-pump for the PWM drive, or op-amp (typically LM358s in these basic designs), no provision for anything other than the USB supply.


1 -
Pulse, dir, enable, from uc to 5 axis bob is 5 volt level. based on 5volt supply circuit to bob/uc.


TRUE.



2-
External psu connection 12/24vdc to bob is for 0-10volt /pwm only.


FALSE - as above - no evidence in the image linked to the you-tube video of anything other than the USB power-input for the 5V supply.

Other BoBs, such as the one I have in front of me, have a separate 12-24VDC supply to provide the isolated 0-10V drive output to the spindle drive, but there's no evidence of any such circuitry on the BoB linked.


3-
Estop / axis end switches.
I have 24vdc volt power supply which will be used to power the e-stop circuit / relais.


1 free contact on e-stop relais will connect to bob e-stop pin / bob gnd.


That will work, provided you have a common ground reference for both the logic supply to the BoB and the 24V supply. <-- ignore that last bit - that's wrong

A switched ground, provided the BoB has on-board pull-up (which I'm pretty certain it will) is a safe mode of connecting to the system. Do not, however, try any 24V signalling into this BoB.


4-
Homing.

LJ8A3-2-Z/BX
These proximity switches are NPN.


Now because they run off a higher voltage separate psu i have to connect 5 volt ground to 24volt ground or they will not work icm with 5axis bob inputs.


This worries me a little since i thought the bob would be 24v on the inputs for homing
based on the applied external psu.

I have read on this forum 24v signals are preferred for interference reasons.


Okay, so, do the proximity switches have internal pull-up resistors to their supply? (put a DVM on resistance scale between +V and the output - if there is a relatively low impedance - say <50k, between the +V and the output, and this is the same regardless of whether you use the meter red/black leads between the +V and output) - then this is a strong indication that there is an internal pull-up. In this case, connecting the output from the proximity switch to the input of the BoB is likely to damage the BoB. It's uncertain to me whether this would risk further damage to the UC300eth - I'd not recommend trying.

If there's no low resistance between output and +V on the proximity switches then I'd guess there's no pull-up, in which case you *could* pull-up to the BoB's 5V supply, but you lose the benefit of the noise-immunity offered by the wider supply range. Not recommended.



5-
I read your warning about the opto isolation, this worries me to.

Having a € 175,- motion controller i.c.m. with a € 5,- bob that does not protect the controller... does not make sense.

Please comment on the above.



Yup. I'd look at a <$5 BoB that includes Opto couplers, to be honest.



Edit:

This is the board that I have, and referenced above:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183048728446.

I don't necessarily recommend this one, but you can immediately recognise other component blocks - the 5 opto-isolators running down the left edge for inputs. A similar one mid/lower board that provides isolation from the PWM input into the charge-pump/integrator op-amp set-up with the tiny 8-pin SMD chip in the lower-right corner (together with a chunky capacitor or two as part of that circuit). Just below the relay - a SMD regulator likely for the op-amp. So, opto-isolated inputs, a 0-10V drive for spindle speed that is isolated from the logic supply, and the separate 12-24V supply for this op-amp. None of that visible on the board that you linked.

Edit 2:

Your board can be made to work - but you have to be aware of it's design and any limitations.

Doddy
27-05-2018, 12:14 PM
Your board can be made to work - but you have to be aware of it's design and any limitations.

I'd also consider when to cut your losses if you want to continue with your original design aims.

driftspin
27-05-2018, 05:56 PM
Firstly, you're asking questions on a BoB who's design is somewhat unknown to me, If you have a URL to the actual user manual for the BoB that will help an awful lot in removing uncertainty, however, many of these are supplied without such detail. In the absence of this design data here's my logic behind the conversation to-date:-

Examining the content of the BoB's component layer - there is no evidence of additional components mounted on the opposite side (e.g. through-hole pins), which leads me to suspect that, the usually obvious, opto-isolators, are not included as part of this design. There looks to be three logic devices - pin-counts support the usual combination - 2x 74xx245 octal driver devices (of whichever technology family - HC, HCT, LS, etc). These are almost always driven from a 5V supply (which is compatible with the UC300eth and parallel ports in the PC). You would need these 2 devices to give the 5V buffering for the 2x5 (=10) motor drives, presumably the 11th being the common enable to the stepper drivers, another for the spindle relay - in fact, this is supported by the silk-screening on the board - 12 outputs. The smaller 14-pin device I would guess at something like a 74xx13 device - a hex Schmitt-trigger inverter device, which would support upto 6 inputs - 4 we know already for the IN1-4 inputs. My guess is the remaining 2 gates unconnected. The choice of a 74xx13 would be intelligent (as well as common) as these afford some noise immunity on the incoming signals.

What's left on the board that's visible?, an SMD transistor that will be used to switch the relay, a PTH diode (1N4148?) for back-emf protection on the relay coil, a couple of LEDs - I guess power, and spindle on/off, discrete resistors for the LEDs and the base-drive for the transistor; some SIL resistor packages for pull-up, or pull-down (can't tell) on the inputs to the board, and a smattering of decoupling capacitors. That's pretty much it.

No on-board regulation and a requirement to source the 5V supply from the USB connector.

No charge-pump for the PWM drive, or op-amp (typically LM358s in these basic designs), no provision for anything other than the USB supply.



TRUE.




FALSE - as above - no evidence in the image linked to the you-tube video of anything other than the USB power-input for the 5V supply.

Other BoBs, such as the one I have in front of me, have a separate 12-24VDC supply to provide the isolated 0-10V drive output to the spindle drive, but there's no evidence of any such circuitry on the BoB linked.



That will work, provided you have a common ground reference for both the logic supply to the BoB and the 24V supply. <-- ignore that last bit - that's wrong

A switched ground, provided the BoB has on-board pull-up (which I'm pretty certain it will) is a safe mode of connecting to the system. Do not, however, try any 24V signalling into this BoB.



Okay, so, do the proximity switches have internal pull-up resistors to their supply? (put a DVM on resistance scale between +V and the output - if there is a relatively low impedance - say <50k, between the +V and the output, and this is the same regardless of whether you use the meter red/black leads between the +V and output) - then this is a strong indication that there is an internal pull-up. In this case, connecting the output from the proximity switch to the input of the BoB is likely to damage the BoB. It's uncertain to me whether this would risk further damage to the UC300eth - I'd not recommend trying.

If there's no low resistance between output and +V on the proximity switches then I'd guess there's no pull-up, in which case you *could* pull-up to the BoB's 5V supply, but you lose the benefit of the noise-immunity offered by the wider supply range. Not recommended.




Yup. I'd look at a <$5 BoB that includes Opto couplers, to be honest.



Edit:

This is the board that I have, and referenced above:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183048728446.

I don't necessarily recommend this one, but you can immediately recognise other component blocks - the 5 opto-isolators running down the left edge for inputs. A similar one mid/lower board that provides isolation from the PWM input into the charge-pump/integrator op-amp set-up with the tiny 8-pin SMD chip in the lower-right corner (together with a chunky capacitor or two as part of that circuit). Just below the relay - a SMD regulator likely for the op-amp. So, opto-isolated inputs, a 0-10V drive for spindle speed that is isolated from the logic supply, and the separate 12-24V supply for this op-amp. None of that visible on the board that you linked.

Edit 2:

Your board can be made to work - but you have to be aware of it's design and any limitations.Ok thank you for breaking down the 5 axis bob so detailed.

I have not recieved the bob yet.


I will post a picture when i do.



This limits my options for wiring for now.



Grtz. Bert

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driftspin
31-05-2018, 10:39 PM
I'd also consider when to cut your losses if you want to continue with your original design aims.Ok doddy,


I think i am lucky, this is what i recieved.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/226bd3d4aac6d84ab42e0704752dd95e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/798da4a0440ca8c822b1e48690007a2c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/3ba46de5fc4f770c4dc1c38096aca922.jpg

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Doddy
01-06-2018, 06:57 AM
Aha, the same style that I have also.

Inputs:
[I]italics[/COLOR] - included as a reminder for the crap I typed this morning]
So, that addresses the onto-isolated inputs. However, the design of that board presents the cathode of the onto-isolator via a 1k resistor to the input pin. The associated anode is wired to the on-board +5V supply. So, shorting the input to ground will activate the otto-isolator. Similarly, having an NPN drive to the pin *should* activate the opto-isolator, however, you have to consider a couple of issues: With the NPN drive OFF, you need a pull-up (or the NPN sensor must have a pull-up). If you intend to use 24V signalling this means that, with the sensor off, and the sensor output pulled to 24V, that you're reverse-biasing the LED fragment in the opto-isolator. My board has EL817 onto-isolators, which have a typical maximum reverse voltage of 6V. Assuming that your 24V and 5V supplies have a common ground that gives you a reverse-bias of 19V across the LED, which exceeds the data sheet value substantially.

5V switching (or 6V if that's the lowest supported by the sensor) is completely do-able.Above 11V is giving you problems. There are ways around all this - let me know if you want to investigate these options.


So, that addresses the opto-isolated inputs. However, the design of that board presents the cathode of the opto-isolator via a 1k resistor to the respective input pin. The associated anode is wired to the on-board regulated 10V supply used for the PWM output (and fed from the 12-24V input). So, shorting the input to ground will activate the opto-isolator. Similarly, having an NPN drive to the pin *should* activate the opto-isolator, however, if the sensor has a pull-up (or you've added a pull-up) you have to consider a one issue: With the NPN drive OFF and with a pull-up resistor and if you intend to use 24V signalling this means that, with the sensor off, and the sensor output pulled to 24V, that you're reverse-biasing the LED fragment in the opto-isolator. My board has Liteon LTV-817B opto-isolators, which have a maximum reverse voltage of 6V. Assuming that your 24V supply for the sensor is the same as the feed into the BoB, or otherwise have a common ground that gives you a reverse-bias of 14V across the LED, which exceeds the data sheet value substantially.

This is only an issue if you have a pull-up as part of the design (or part of the sensor). If not, then it's not an issue, but be aware although you're driving the BoB at 12-24V, the actual switching is regulated to 10V. Don't inject 24V into the inputs of this board (worst case scenario: you'll fry the opto-isolator, and possibly the onboard regulator - but protect the UCx00 controller).

It also means that the inputs are dependent on the 12-24V supply, even if you don't intend to use the PWM output. The logic on the board is dependent on the 5V supply, as are the stepper motor outputs.



Outputs:
Just remember the resistor-bank that you asked about - your drive to the stepper drivers is still 5V signalling and requires no additional resistors for current limiting. You need to source a 5V supply for the BoB, as well.



The more that I look at BoBs, the more I'm inclined to design my own extension BoB boards for the UCx00 range of controllers that give complete galvanic isolation to the input circuitry.


EDIT: Since the visual inspection, I've now metered the board and I'm happy with the info above.

I'm in the same position of trying to understand the reliable interfacing to a UCx00, although my own apathy is slowing my build.

driftspin
02-06-2018, 05:13 PM
Aha, the same style that I have also.

Inputs:
[I]italics[/COLOR] - included as a reminder for the crap I typed this morning]
So, that addresses the onto-isolated inputs. However, the design of that board presents the cathode of the onto-isolator via a 1k resistor to the input pin. The associated anode is wired to the on-board +5V supply. So, shorting the input to ground will activate the otto-isolator. Similarly, having an NPN drive to the pin *should* activate the opto-isolator, however, you have to consider a couple of issues: With the NPN drive OFF, you need a pull-up (or the NPN sensor must have a pull-up). If you intend to use 24V signalling this means that, with the sensor off, and the sensor output pulled to 24V, that you're reverse-biasing the LED fragment in the opto-isolator. My board has EL817 onto-isolators, which have a typical maximum reverse voltage of 6V. Assuming that your 24V and 5V supplies have a common ground that gives you a reverse-bias of 19V across the LED, which exceeds the data sheet value substantially.

5V switching (or 6V if that's the lowest supported by the sensor) is completely do-able.Above 11V is giving you problems. There are ways around all this - let me know if you want to investigate these options.


So, that addresses the opto-isolated inputs. However, the design of that board presents the cathode of the opto-isolator via a 1k resistor to the respective input pin. The associated anode is wired to the on-board regulated 10V supply used for the PWM output (and fed from the 12-24V input). So, shorting the input to ground will activate the opto-isolator. Similarly, having an NPN drive to the pin *should* activate the opto-isolator, however, if the sensor has a pull-up (or you've added a pull-up) you have to consider a one issue: With the NPN drive OFF and with a pull-up resistor and if you intend to use 24V signalling this means that, with the sensor off, and the sensor output pulled to 24V, that you're reverse-biasing the LED fragment in the opto-isolator. My board has Liteon LTV-817B opto-isolators, which have a maximum reverse voltage of 6V. Assuming that your 24V supply for the sensor is the same as the feed into the BoB, or otherwise have a common ground that gives you a reverse-bias of 14V across the LED, which exceeds the data sheet value substantially.

This is only an issue if you have a pull-up as part of the design (or part of the sensor). If not, then it's not an issue, but be aware although you're driving the BoB at 12-24V, the actual switching is regulated to 10V. Don't inject 24V into the inputs of this board (worst case scenario: you'll fry the opto-isolator, and possibly the onboard regulator - but protect the UCx00 controller).

It also means that the inputs are dependent on the 12-24V supply, even if you don't intend to use the PWM output. The logic on the board is dependent on the 5V supply, as are the stepper motor outputs.



Outputs:
Just remember the resistor-bank that you asked about - your drive to the stepper drivers is still 5V signalling and requires no additional resistors for current limiting. You need to source a 5V supply for the BoB, as well.



The more that I look at BoBs, the more I'm inclined to design my own extension BoB boards for the UCx00 range of controllers that give complete galvanic isolation to the input circuitry.


EDIT: Since the visual inspection, I've now metered the board and I'm happy with the info above.

I'm in the same position of trying to understand the reliable interfacing to a UCx00, although my own apathy is slowing my build.



Ok Doddy,

I did some testing on my backup bob :-).

Input pins have a 1k ohm inline onboard resistor like yours.

Test 1
Put a 12vdc psu on the bob.
Input Pins read 9.3 volts vs PSU ground/ input pin ground

test 2
Put a 24vdc psu on the bob.
Input Pins read 9.3 volts vs PSU ground/ input pin ground

Input pin output +9.3 voltage vs psu + 24vdc does not give a reading on the dvm.
So there is some type of voltage regulator on the inputs circuit.


opto`s : 1024 718B
looks like this data sheet is the right one.
http://www.everlight.com/file/ProductFile/EL817.pdf

Test 3
I tested my 6-36 vdc NPN proximity switches in 24vdc and 12vdc situation
Hooked up a 4.7 k output load on black vs blue wire.
this to test inline resistance of the proximity switch by voltage divider calculation.

It looks like i have +/- 9.4k inline resistance in the output circuit of the proximity switch.

http://www.ekt2.com/pdf/14_PROXIMITY_INDUCTIVE__8BX.pdf




Do you feel i can there for not go past 12 vdc to protect the opto`s against :
24volts PSU - 9.3volts input pin voltage = 13.7 volt reverse ?




Maybe we are trying to solve a non problem, please look at line 3 and tell me what you think.



Grtz Bert.






Feature:

1. Fully support control via parallel port, such as MACH3,etc.

2. USB power supply and external power supply are seperate for safety.

3. External power supply input: 12-24V. Equiped with anti-reverse connection function.

4. All input signal will be isolated by optical coupler for further connection with emergency stop, tool setter, limit, ect for PC saftey.

5. One relay output port for control spindle on/off. The output interface. is P17.

6. One 0-10V analog voltage output port for control of inverter that has relative analog interface,and for control of spinle speed. The output interface is P1.

7. If all 17 interfaces are activated, drivers equipped with optical coupler can be controled and 5 axis stepper motor can be controled.

8. As PWM output, P1 can control spindle speed regulator that is equipped with optical coupler.

9. Connection with 5V input drivers that has common cathode or anode is supported.

Doddy
02-06-2018, 06:29 PM
So there is some type of voltage regulator on the inputs circuit.


Agreed - our results tally.




http://www.everlight.com/file/ProductFile/EL817.pdf


If the 817 is preceded with an italic "L", then its the Liteon LVT-817. The 1024 is just the date-code. These are all pretty much the same.




I tested my 6-36 vdc NPN proximity switches in 24vdc and 12vdc situation
Hooked up a 4.7 k output load on black vs blue wire.
this to test inline resistance of the proximity switch by voltage divider calculation.

It looks like i have +/- 9.4k inline resistance in the output circuit of the proximity switch.

http://www.ekt2.com/pdf/14_PROXIMITY_INDUCTIVE__8BX.pdf


You don't say if the sensor is On or Off. What's the actual voltage with 24V applied across the supply, measured with a 4k7 pull-up, in both On and Off states? (I'll measure mine in the morning anyway). I'd expect the output voltage to be sat at 24V "Off" and near-as-dammit 0V "On".



Do you feel i can there for not go past 12 vdc to protect the opto`s against :
24volts PSU - 9.3volts input pin voltage = 13.7 volt reverse ?

Maybe we are trying to solve a non problem, please look at line 3 and tell me what you think.


It becomes a non-problem provided that there are no pull-ups to the supply voltage to the sensor. Once you have the sensor input floating to 24V (which you'll only have with a pull-up, for example if you wanted a 24V control circuit) then you're breaking the spec on the data sheet, and will likely damage the optocoupler.





3. External power supply input: 12-24V. Equiped with anti-reverse connection function.


I simply read that that there's reverse-polarity protection on (or around) the LM317 regulator. There is nothing on the optos to protect them (this would be an easy mod to the board to support 24V signalling).

I do think this is a non-problem by avoiding 24V switching levels.

Doddy
03-06-2018, 03:28 PM
Okay, a nice Sunday experiment.

With reference to https://www.renesas.com/en-eu/products/optoelectronics/technology/standard-p.html - which discusses the effect of reverse-biasing an opto-coupler (section 1.5).

I've hooked up a brand-new 4n25 opto-coupler, 1K between anode and +10V, cathode connected to either 0V (opto = on) or through a 10k resistor to 24V (opto = off, reverse biased, simulating the sensor behaviour). Collector to +10V, emitter through a 1k to ground. DVM across emitter and ground.

With the cathode connected to 0V (on), the voltage at the emitter raises from 0.0 to 9.06V.

Now, I connect the cathode to the 24V supply via the 10k resistor (simulating the sensor internal pull-up of 10k). Predictably, the emitter voltage drops to 0V as the opto-coupler turns off.

So, the real test - leave like that for 5 minutes, then disconnect the 24V supply and ground the cathode.

Result - emitter voltage rises to 9.06V

Conclusion - for a short-duration (5 minute) exposure to 24V (and a reverse bias of 14V) the performance of the opto isolator is not changed.

However, measuring the voltage across the 10k gives 0V (i.e. no voltage drop - no current flow) - the voltage hasn't reached the avalanche voltage of the opto's LED.

Since then, I've added in a second PSU giving me a range upto 60V, in place of the 24V supply. Cranking the voltage up it was evident that the avalanche region of the LED in the opto was around 50V. Removing the 50V showed an emitter voltage of 9.01V (a 0.05V reduction from previous). Replacing the 10K resistor with a 2.2k resistor (to increase the current flow during the reverse-biasing), and the emitter voltage dropped to 8.84V (further degeneration). Note, this effect does appear to be permanent, but not increasing (in the 5-10 minutes I waited).

So, what do I think? Reading random articles on the internet does suggest that reverse-biasing the LED will result in a deterioration of performance over a period of years. The article above suggests that even short duration reverse biasing can result in deterioration.

However, the avalanche voltage may be substantially higher than the datasheet (clearly you can expect the opto-isolator to tolerate a 6V reverse bias without damage - but the actual headroom that you have between that and the actual avalanche voltage is unknown, and likely variable between difference devices, age, temperature etc).

Having run this experiment I'm inclined to think that you're not likely to have a significant problem running the BoB with the inputs connected to a 24V-driven NPN sensor. If might be that, over time, the opto-couplers degrade, but I'm not convinced that this would result in failure. If it does, the optos are easily replaced (or the BoB, if these are still available after the failure).

BUT, I have decided that I'll be powering the BoB and the sensors with a common 12V supply - it's a personal choice but I will keep the reverse bias voltage to less than the maximum expressed on the datasheet.

driftspin
03-06-2018, 06:07 PM
Okay, a nice Sunday experiment.

With reference to https://www.renesas.com/en-eu/products/optoelectronics/technology/standard-p.html - which discusses the effect of reverse-biasing an opto-coupler (section 1.5).

I've hooked up a brand-new 4n25 opto-coupler, 1K between anode and +10V, cathode connected to either 0V (opto = on) or through a 10k resistor to 24V (opto = off, reverse biased, simulating the sensor behaviour). Collector to +10V, emitter through a 1k to ground. DVM across emitter and ground.

With the cathode connected to 0V (on), the voltage at the emitter raises from 0.0 to 9.06V.

Now, I connect the cathode to the 24V supply via the 10k resistor (simulating the sensor internal pull-up of 10k). Predictably, the emitter voltage drops to 0V as the opto-coupler turns off.

So, the real test - leave like that for 5 minutes, then disconnect the 24V supply and ground the cathode.

Result - emitter voltage rises to 9.06V

Conclusion - for a short-duration (5 minute) exposure to 24V (and a reverse bias of 14V) the performance of the opto isolator is not changed.

However, measuring the voltage across the 10k gives 0V (i.e. no voltage drop - no current flow) - the voltage hasn't reached the avalanche voltage of the opto's LED.

Since then, I've added in a second PSU giving me a range upto 60V, in place of the 24V supply. Cranking the voltage up it was evident that the avalanche region of the LED in the opto was around 50V. Removing the 50V showed an emitter voltage of 9.01V (a 0.05V reduction from previous). Replacing the 10K resistor with a 2.2k resistor (to increase the current flow during the reverse-biasing), and the emitter voltage dropped to 8.84V (further degeneration). Note, this effect does appear to be permanent, but not increasing (in the 5-10 minutes I waited).

So, what do I think? Reading random articles on the internet does suggest that reverse-biasing the LED will result in a deterioration of performance over a period of years. The article above suggests that even short duration reverse biasing can result in deterioration.

However, the avalanche voltage may be substantially higher than the datasheet (clearly you can expect the opto-isolator to tolerate a 6V reverse bias without damage - but the actual headroom that you have between that and the actual avalanche voltage is unknown, and likely variable between difference devices, age, temperature etc).

Having run this experiment I'm inclined to think that you're not likely to have a significant problem running the BoB with the inputs connected to a 24V-driven NPN sensor. If might be that, over time, the opto-couplers degrade, but I'm not convinced that this would result in failure. If it does, the optos are easily replaced (or the BoB, if these are still available after the failure).

BUT, I have decided that I'll be powering the BoB and the sensors with a common 12V supply - it's a personal choice but I will keep the reverse bias voltage to less than the maximum expressed on the datasheet.

Ok ,thoroughly does not even closely describe your commitment in helping me out.
Thank you for that.

Ok so...i decided to do the following based on this thread and other threads.

Since there seems to be 9.4k ish in line in the proximity switch emitter, i put a 4.7k resisitor in series connected to ground.

When connected to a 24vdc psu, this will give me about 8 volts at the point of connection at the bob. in the "open "position.

When in the " closed " position the emitter goes to 0v.. hope this will work.


I will report back when all is operational.

Doddy thanks again for doing research on this subject.


Grtz. Bert




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Doddy
03-06-2018, 06:36 PM
Ok ,thoroughly does not even closely describe your commitment in helping me out.
Thank you for that.

Ok so...i decided to do the following based on this thread and other threads.

Since there seems to be 9.4k ish in line in the proximity switch emitter, i put a 4.7k resisitor in series connected to ground.

When connected to a 24vdc psu, this will give me about 8 volts at the point of connection at the bob. in the "open "position.

When in the " closed " position the emitter goes to 0v.. hope this will work.


I will report back when all is operational.

Doddy thanks again for doing research on this subject.


Grtz. Bert




Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

In honesty, I'm doing this for me, as much as anything - I will need to start thinking of wiring pretty soon, and you're bringing up the questions that I need to answer for myself.

I think the NPN sensors the black wire is actually the collector, not emitter (I guess the emitter is connected to blue/0v)

Re your proposal. Think carefully of what you're trying to achieve. With the NPN providing a switch to ground (current sink), by placing a resistor from the output to ground will give you a low(ish) resistance to ground even when the NPN transistor is OFF - the LED will still illuminate (you'll get around 1.5mA through it - enough to illuminate it, probably enough for the current through the opto's transistor to actuate the input to the UCx00 - the input impedance of that is something like 50k to ground (and 4k7 to +5).

Try it, by all means, but don't be surprised if the input is permanently on.

The easiest solution is to simply tack a small signal diode (1n4148 is probably the most common) across the pin 1/2 of each opto - in the opposite sense to the opto's LED (i.e. cathode to pin 1, anode to pin 2). That way you cannot reverse bias either diode beyond the forward conduction voltage of the opposing diode - max of 0.6V by the 1n4148 across the opto's LED, or around 1.5V by the opto's LED across the 1n4148. Essentially, this will limit the voltage at the input to the BoB to the V-Ref provided by the BoB's onboard regulator (~10V) plus 0.6V.

Of course, this (and the idea that you proposed) both serve to reduce the switching voltage to something around 10V, which is why I still think that just using a 12V supply to the BoB and to the sensor is an easy alternative.

driftspin
03-06-2018, 07:04 PM
Try it, by all means, but don't be surprised if the input is permanently on.

.

Ok i get it.

So best would.be to raise voltage just over 9.3 or what ever comes out the bob with nothing connected.

I really like your idea of the reversed diode.

This will act as an indicator for status at the same time.


Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
13-06-2018, 06:48 PM
Hey guys,

I need some advice on how you guys connected the 8 stepper wires to the 4 wire shielded cable.

Did you guys just solder and heatshrink it to the cable?


I also feel like i need to connect the cable shield to the body of the stepper motor.

Some photos would do the trick :-)


Any advice is welcome.


Grtz Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180613/fd7f8582a25b95c699acc27ff2e7ae2d.jpg

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driftspin
28-06-2018, 05:51 PM
HI guys,

for a 2.2 kw spindle.
What size bit can i use to level my wooden bed surface?


Grtz Bert

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Nr1madman
28-06-2018, 05:56 PM
Hey guys,

I need some advice on how you guys connected the 8 stepper wires to the 4 wire shielded cable.

Did you guys just solder and heatshrink it to the cable?


I also feel like i need to connect the cable shield to the body of the stepper motor.

Some photos would do the trick :-)


Any advice is welcome.


Grtz Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180613/fd7f8582a25b95c699acc27ff2e7ae2d.jpg

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkI just soldered with heatshrink. Not pretty but it works :D

My stepper motors are grounded through the machine frame.
If connecting the wire shield aswell it might create a loop?

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk

routercnc
28-06-2018, 06:32 PM
HI guys,

for a 2.2 kw spindle.
What size bit can i use to level my wooden bed surface?


Grtz Bert

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

I have a 1.5kW spindle and used an 18mm 2 flute router bit to skim a wooden bed without a problems. You could probably go larger - there is a larger bottom cutting type bit which others have used.

Clive S
28-06-2018, 06:40 PM
HI guys,

for a 2.2 kw spindle.
What size bit can i use to level my wooden bed surface?


Grtz Bert

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

Something like this: https://www.wealdentool.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=surface&PN=Online_Catalogue_Surface_Trim_225%2ehtml#aT6150 _2d1_2f2


Re the CY cable screen just ground it at one end only. ie to the star point in the control box

driftspin
28-06-2018, 06:48 PM
Something like this: https://www.wealdentool.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=surface&PN=Online_Catalogue_Surface_Trim_225%2ehtml#aT6150 _2d1_2f2


Re the CY cable screen just ground it at one end only. ie to the star point in the control boxOk thanks for the anwsers.

+/- 50mm it is..


I started buying some bits and pieces for when the machine is finally ready.

Thanks again, will post some pictures soon.

Grtz. Bert.

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driftspin
28-06-2018, 09:01 PM
Something like this: https://www.wealdentool.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=surface&PN=Online_Catalogue_Surface_Trim_225%2ehtml#aT6150 _2d1_2f2


Re the CY cable screen just ground it at one end only. ie to the star point in the control box

Hi Cive S,


That bit ia a very good find actually.

I cant find any other reasonably priced multi winged bits yet.


Looks like Ebay and ali xpres only like dual winged types.

Is more cutting edges better when it comes to planing a surface?

Oh man i ve got a steep learning curve ahead of me.


Grtz Bert.

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Neale
30-06-2018, 07:09 AM
I used a 50mm two-edged bottom-cutting bit running at 6000 rpm in my 2.2KW router. It stalled quite easily and I had to use very shallow depths of cut (1-2mm, from memory). However, that was in oak. Rather than skim the whole bed, I clamped oak strips down to the steel bed supports, skimmed those, and then screwed a 19mm ply sheet on top. This allowed me to take the bed surface out to the edges of the bed, where the router could not reach. Good enough for working in wood, and if I need better for a small job, I skim a spoil board for that job.

routercnc
30-06-2018, 09:48 AM
Is this any help? I wire up the Z steppers towards the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQVooJ1aURM
About 25:40 time stamp

I started by trimming the motor wires as short as I dared as this last part is not shielded. I’ve not seen anyone run the shield right to the motor. May get a ground loop if the machine is also grounded ? Not sure.

driftspin
30-06-2018, 11:10 AM
Is this any help? I wire up the Z steppers towards the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQVooJ1aURM
About 25:40 time stamp

I started by trimming the motor wires as short as I dared as this last part is not shielded. I’ve not seen anyone run the shield right to the motor. May get a ground loop if the machine is also grounded ? Not sure.And again your skills humbled me.

You make it look so easy.

Yes heatshrinking like you did was what i intended.



For what i know about shielding..
Shield grounded to 1 side , or go all out and create a full shield EMC protection style.

Pigtaling the shield to the motor is not going to work and yes will probably create a loop if not done right.

So yes i think heatshrinking soldering is the only way forward.

Anyone working in their shop these days?
Man it is hot under a tarpaper roof


Grtz. Bert

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Nickhofen
30-06-2018, 04:44 PM
Be carful for what you say,I said that there was too much heat in my workshop and we had temperature drop here and was raining for almost one week! ;-)

driftspin
03-07-2018, 08:44 PM
Be carful for what you say,I said that there was too much heat in my workshop and we had temperature drop here and was raining for almost one week! ;-)Yes it is still hot :-)

Ok some pictures.

Grtz Bert.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180703/0cc1c4d0c132f1b32cd50f2e9c4112f2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180703/51f8e170aa1460062f72ab7250351b04.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180703/f721565fef96d815ac236125c8033bcc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180703/7fba7fd94a41c6b7bcb034ff77921d79.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180703/6155c18dbff123e3f6084054915b1df2.jpg


Ok have not decided yet if ill run the stepper cables directly to the drives.


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routercnc
04-07-2018, 12:25 PM
I connect the steppers direct to the drives. Some use connectors at the input panel to the box but for me this is just another source of potential noise. How often do you need to move the machine? Unscrewing a few terminal blocks on the drive takes just minutes. Up to you but I would go direct.

Doddy
04-07-2018, 12:59 PM
I connect the steppers direct to the drives. Some use connectors at the input panel to the box but for me this is just another source of potential noise.

Noise?, okay, with an unshielded connector and a (very) poor connection. More likely, you'll be introducing resistance , and that will have a detrimental effect on the machine (whether measurable, is something else - if the PSU is spec'd correctly and the drivers are in constant-current then it should will have a limited effect).

It is a balance between cost and convenience first and foremost. If I had a cabinet with the holes for the steppers pre-drilled (as appears to be the case in that impeccable cabinet) then I'd go connector. If you never disconnect them, then the convenience never comes into play and you've lost the cost of 6-12 connectors over the life of the machine. If you have to disconnect them then, without the connectors, you're suffering inconvenience each time. It also helps to be able to isolate cables from cabinets during construction, installation, maintenance, etc.

Call me lazy - I prefer to make life as easy as possible for myself.


How often do you need to move the machine? Unscrewing a few terminal blocks on the drive takes just minutes.

Sods law : if you provide connectors - you will never move it. If you don't - you will :)

Remaking screw terminals is not a great use of time - you shouldn't re-use the existing wire/crimp without remaking (I would re-use, in the knowledge I'm doing wrong, again out of laziness - it'd bite me in the end).


Up to you

Absolutely.

My only caveat on my view above - I'd make sure to use a vaguely appropriate connector.

driftspin
04-07-2018, 06:19 PM
Oh connectors. No i was thinking using the bottom row of terminal blocks or not.

So lost time while moving is not in the equasion then. it is both screw terminals.

I agree with you on the resistance issue, it is to be avoided. also connectors if not done right are an other source of errors.

So straight to the drives it is.

Thanks guys

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routercnc
04-07-2018, 07:29 PM
I think Doddys first paragraph sums it up better than my quick description :eagerness:
I’ve had good experiences with connectors- My first CNC machine used aviation connectors and I had no issues with them at all so it can work fine.
I’ve also had bad ones where the connector to the spindle flashed over and blew the expensive VFD. Totally my fault as I didn’t provide much strain relief and the spindle moves around.
So I just have an aversion to them which is probably not very scientifically based when you do it right.
In terms of time spent disconnecting the steppers the drives usually have a green terminal plug which you just pull out and feed out of the cabinet so it comes down to how easy it is to feed the cable out.

driftspin
14-08-2018, 05:59 PM
Hi guys,


I was finally able to make some progress again today.

Now a new question ...

Does UCNC work with soft limit end switches?

For the y & z i am able to do home end switches both ends..


In my design it is al lot harder to do x1 home and end, and x2 home and end.


So just home switches on x1 and x2 ... is that enough?



Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
20-08-2018, 09:13 PM
Hi guys finally,


Things are moving [emoji16]

https://youtu.be/DGThYTQ_QdE




Scary stuff, this thing is powerful.


Homing.

So now i am trying to get the combined home / limit switch working.

I played with the softlimit and offset settings.

After homing , this works everytime, the UCCNC software goes to reset because it is at the limit position.
I cant reset until i move all 3 axis out of home position.

Is there a way to automatically backoff from home, to home +5 or so, to not directly trigger limit/reset after homing?


Reading the manual did not point me to a solution yet.


Grtz Bert.











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Clive S
20-08-2018, 10:32 PM
Things are moving

https://youtu.be/DGThYTQ_QdE



Its alive at last:thumsup:::toot:

driftspin
20-08-2018, 10:42 PM
In honesty, I'm doing this for me, as much as anything - I will need to start thinking of wiring pretty soon, and you're bringing up the questions that I need to answer for myself.

I think the NPN sensors the black wire is actually the collector, not emitter (I guess the emitter is connected to blue/0v)

Re your proposal. Think carefully of what you're trying to achieve. With the NPN providing a switch to ground (current sink), by placing a resistor from the output to ground will give you a low(ish) resistance to ground even when the NPN transistor is OFF - the LED will still illuminate (you'll get around 1.5mA through it - enough to illuminate it, probably enough for the current through the opto's transistor to actuate the input to the UCx00 - the input impedance of that is something like 50k to ground (and 4k7 to +5).

Try it, by all means, but don't be surprised if the input is permanently on.

The easiest solution is to simply tack a small signal diode (1n4148 is probably the most common) across the pin 1/2 of each opto - in the opposite sense to the opto's LED (i.e. cathode to pin 1, anode to pin 2). That way you cannot reverse bias either diode beyond the forward conduction voltage of the opposing diode - max of 0.6V by the 1n4148 across the opto's LED, or around 1.5V by the opto's LED across the 1n4148. Essentially, this will limit the voltage at the input to the BoB to the V-Ref provided by the BoB's onboard regulator (~10V) plus 0.6V.

Of course, this (and the idea that you proposed) both serve to reduce the switching voltage to something around 10V, which is why I still think that just using a 12V supply to the BoB and to the sensor is an easy alternative.Hi doddy,



All in all i had to add 500 ohm to 4.7k to have the inputs switch reliably. I ended up at 8.65 volt. after switching the inputs would not drop..

Adding 500 raised it to 9.15 ish. which is ok
So you where right it needed to go near 9 and or slightly over.

0.5volts still illuminated the input opto's just enough to screw up somtimes

I still have a glitch in 1 of the inputs though..

Need to find out why.
maybe wiring issue or a slightly off 4.7k resistor.

ill try 1k instead off 500 first... maybe there is a switching effect or so.


Grtz Brt




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AndyGuid
21-08-2018, 02:00 AM
It looks good from down here Bert:applause::beer:

Nickhofen
21-08-2018, 05:22 AM
Nifty Job!

driftspin
25-08-2018, 11:10 PM
Ok more good stuff today.

I got myself started on cad with fusion360.
I will run into walls later i am sure.

But for now i managed to produce Gcode with it and made my first air cut.

So i am really in good spirits now :-)

I do realize now i need a probe sooner or later. For finding the workpiece position without to many f ups.
So i need to wire in my 2nd 5 axis bob.

I used up all inputs. e-stop home switches on x y z and a axis

I do have the B and C axis step en dir output spare on the 1st bob.
Can one use them for any misc purpose?

Maybe i need to get me some 5v coil relais boards soon


Also i need to start work on the bed surface.
Mounting points for a vice and clamps.

And maybe start with pouring epoxy for some basic cuttable surface to level the surface on the crossmebers.


Question.

Did you guys put your cutters all in the F360 library?

And does F360 do a good job on estimating feed speed doc and step over?

Somehow i feel a cutter library and a standard probe surface, is pointing in the direction of workpiece holding at known stationairy coordinates...

Can anyone please point me in the direction of best practice?

Probe the actual workpiece everytime or make solid default coordinate workpiece holding pins and vices relative to a stationairy bed probing surface.

Because i have no experience, education or well founded opinions on these things yet, i might just as well ask you all right :-) ?


Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
25-08-2018, 11:37 PM
Oh btw,

I ordered a AMD Rysen 5 2400g based pc for gaming for the kids.
But i will try F360 cad on it, it might be a very cost effective setup.

Will report back on this.

Grtz. Bert.

Edit:

Oh this guys made good work of explaining,

https://youtu.be/HRginJ3c4wM



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Davek0974
26-08-2018, 08:07 AM
I would probe the work piece each time unless running batches of same parts.

Tools are good to have in cam library it makes collision detection easy, simulation works as well, you will generally need some sort of tool in there or you cant CAM a part.

I have no ATC so my tool numbers can be anywhere but i have my first 8 tools fixed to my most used ones as my tool rack has rows of 8 holes so first row is fixed :)

I use a touch-probe for XYZ detection as well as a tool height probe for tool setting - i have BT30 tool holders so my tool fitting is repeatable and can use the tool table in Mach3 for length offsets.

If using R8 or spindle collets the the tool table will be no use and tool heights will need to be set each time they change.

Its fun :)

routercnc
26-08-2018, 02:10 PM
If you are making general hobby parts then all sorts of setups are required including vice work, plates clamped to the bed, set against dowel pins etc.

Also are you planning on using epoxy to level the bed? You can skim this with the router to get a surface which is parallel / matches your rails.

driftspin
27-08-2018, 06:46 PM
If you are making general hobby parts then all sorts of setups are required including vice work, plates clamped to the bed, set against dowel pins etc.

Also are you planning on using epoxy to level the bed? You can skim this with the router to get a surface which is parallel / matches your rails.

Hi Routercnc,

Ok so a lot of pins and clamp options then :-)

Yes i was thinking of pouring on a surface i can cut parallel to X/Y with the router.

This should become the reference surface.

Maybe gluing on some hpl like trespa is also an option, looks like it is easy to cut as well and equally pressure resistant.


Of course as thin as possible, and then put some strategicly placed 8040 alu pieces in between the crossmembers in the x and y directions for easy adjusting / sliding T nuts.


My crossmembers are spaced about 40 cm appart i have a box filled with 8040 cut of pieces i can do tetris with for this purpose.

It looks like i can still put a sump under the bed then or a part of the bed to stop fluids from raining down to the floor. if i decide to play with spray or flood cooling later.


Also i need to think about the add in vertical bed i have on my wish list.




I did run in to problem yesterday, getting 0-10volt working on the chinese HY02D223B vfd..



P001 = 1
p002 = 2

This did not do the trick yet.
VFD does not start.

M3 S5000,

This clicks my relays and puts 10volt out at the bob.
But no action at the vfd yet.

Manual control does not work now any more.


FOR ; DCM to bob relay,

VI to bob 0-10volt output.
ACM to bob Analog common.


I think ill check the vfd stand alone first.

direct connect vfd 10 volt to VI
and a short
FOR to DCM terminals

I read something on the webs about a J terminal... no such thing...


Also ill read the manual more carefully so to see what i missed. (more then 2 min)

After reading more carefully:

I have to check the values for pd044 through pd049
Maybe some extra functions are enabled.


Grtz Bert.




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driftspin
27-08-2018, 10:22 PM
Ok so i solved the FOR DCM problem.
A wiring issue. 8)

Now i need to find out how to control the 5 axis bob 0-10v output.

m3 s1000 turns on relais
m5 off.

S1000 should set a voltage to output pin 1.. in pwm..

Im not sure what pwm speed / frequency works with the bob

1 khz?

Also it looks like it is proportional but reversed.

Anyone got a 5 axis 0-10volt working on uccnc?

Or should i skip hardware I/O and go straight for modbus?


Grtz Bert.



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driftspin
29-08-2018, 11:00 PM
Ok so i solved the FOR DCM problem.
A wiring issue. 8)

Now i need to find out how to control the 5 axis bob 0-10v output.

m3 s1000 turns on relais
m5 off.

S1000 should set a voltage to output pin 1.. in pwm..

Im not sure what pwm speed / frequency works with the bob

1 khz?

Also it looks like it is proportional but reversed.

Anyone got a 5 axis 0-10volt working on uccnc?

Or should i skip hardware I/O and go straight for modbus?


Grtz Bert.



Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met TapatalkOk solved the uccnc vs 5axis bob pwm/0-10volt programming.


My UCCNC settings are:


Pin 1 port 3. (im using port 3 for now)
base frequency 800hz
Looks frequency fixes linearity issues for me

minimum dutycycle 100%.
maximum dutycycle 0%.
This fixed the reversed 0-10volt.


Maybe Ill will adjust settings to make it work from 2-10volts later.
so probebly 80 to 0 duty cycle
I dont like the 0 volt level.

It is almost linear now.

Next is to get HY vfd to react to external 0-10v.


Somehow the dial on the vfd is still active instead of external signal.


Must have still missed something.


Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
31-08-2018, 11:39 PM
So i finally solved my 0-10 volt to VFD problem.

Some things in the manual are not completely like the vfd in real life.

The terminal vr does not exist.
Missing that one made me search for what i was missing earlier, terminal 1,2,3 J.

After staring puzzled to the vfd for a while i finally saw it, on the right side of the screwterminals

A jumper style selector. After moving the jumper from pin 2-3 to pin 1-2 the frontpanel potmeter did not work but the 0-10volt started working.

Just 1 problem left... only 9.62volt...
So not 24000 rpm but 23200 orso.

After filling up the cooling circuit i gonna try first cut tomorrow i hope.


Grtz Bert.

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driftspin
11-09-2018, 08:42 PM
Today i did some rigidity testing.

My findings are Y and Z direction are much stiffer than the X direction.

Because of a design decision to have the x ballscrews near the top of the bed there is a quitte long linkage bar to the ballnut.

In the design is a linkage bar of a 70x5 mm strip 200mm long.

I under estimated the forces a bit.
The strip twists under x direction forces.
One can see the ballscrew flex a little too as a result of the week linkage.

Result is about .4mm of flex at 200n of force when the z is almost fully extended.

About 0.04mm ish at 20n of force.

So the first upgrade is identified before the first part is produced :-)


Grtz Bert.

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