PDA

View Full Version : Upgrading a Denford Triac Mill



Matabele
08-10-2017, 09:38 PM
Hi Folks,

I was going to ask the same queries on the Denford site but thought I would put them here as well, as there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum!

Basically I have no idea what I'm doing lol.

I have acquired a mid 80's green Triac, R8 spindle, no ATC. I'll be primarily using this for prototype development making parts out of steel, and will need to do some 3D machining. I'd like to be able to run Mach 3 on the mill as this software is well supported from a community point of view.

As for parts, I was thinking to use steppers from CNC4You...Nema 23 3.1Nm for the X and Y, and a Nema 23 4Nm for the Z. Are these going to have enough grunt for this mill and application?

Can anyone comment on the CNC4You reccomended drivers, namely the CW5045 (https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-4.5A,-50V-CNC-Microstepping-CW5045) ? Any good? The price at 39 each seems good.

An area that is confusing to me is the application of a motion controller. I have heard favourable reviews of the CSMIO IP-M...but frankly have no idea why you would need to add this bit of kit. Could someone explain its function to me please? I have seen simple conversions which use stepper drivers linked up to a BoB and all seems well, so why the need for a motion controller? And how would the CSMIO IP-M compare to a UCS100?

Another thing I was wondering is what controls the spindle speed on a Triac? Is there a board or card that could be salvaged from the electronics and still be compatible with Mach3?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as would any suggestions for alternative components and suppliers. I am needing to do this on a tight budget.

Chaz
09-10-2017, 09:47 AM
Hi,

IVe done a few of these.

You need to determine if it has steppers or servos. From this, you can then look at options around what control board etc.

Dont buy anything till you know this info. Any pics of the control panel / drivers (existing stuff)?

The speed for the spindle is controlled by the controller providing 0-10V into a drive. The 'normal' DC drives (if you have the same SEM motor) is not isolated and can cause issues. You need to look at the Sprint 1220i controllers.

Where are you based? Interesting alias ..... from ZA by any chance?

Chaz

Matabele
09-10-2017, 10:07 AM
Double post

Matabele
09-10-2017, 10:52 AM
Ha, I posted a quick reply about 30 mins ago but it seems it didn't post for some reason.

Hi Chaz, many thanks for the reply and info much appreciated! Well spotted and very close, I was brought up in Zimbabwe. Have you spent some time in that part of the world?

The triac was actually given to me so no cash has changed hands yet, although it did come with some Coventry easy change tool holders which the seller (my boss) may want some cash for. Looking online replacements are about 100 each!

It definitely has steppers, although I havnt had a chance to look inside the control enclosure yet.

What set of components would you use to convert this mill Chaz? Would you keep the existing steppers or start from scratch.

Apart from that are the Triacs a capable machine in your opinion?

Cheers for now

Chaz
09-10-2017, 10:59 AM
Hi,

I'm South African, hence knowing the word.

Mine was servo based. The one I helped with recently was also servo based.

If it has steppers, Id consider keeping that and just getting a cheap breakout board or look at the Pokeys / Eding stuff. Depends on budget.

They are fairly capable, all depends on what your expectation is. I'm sure you can get it going for less than the cost of a new Chinese POS, so probably worth it.

Where are you based now? If not too far from me I could pop around and suggest how to based on what I can see.

Chaz

Matabele
09-10-2017, 03:04 PM
Thanks for the offer Chaz, appreciate it! I'm in Shrewsbury, not sure if that's anywhere near you? I still have to sort out a place to put the thing, organise moving it and some time to have a look inside and see what's what.

Do you still use your conversion or have you upgraded.

Chaz
09-10-2017, 04:52 PM
Thanks for the offer Chaz, appreciate it! I'm in Shrewsbury, not sure if that's anywhere near you? I still have to sort out a place to put the thing, organise moving it and some time to have a look inside and see what's what.

Do you still use your conversion or have you upgraded.

Pity, not close. Im in West London.

Ive sold mine as I build a new machine which you can find the lunacy about here - Thor Madness (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/9616-Thor-or-should-that-be-Zeus?highlight=thor)

Doddy
09-10-2017, 06:43 PM
Hi Folks,
Can anyone comment on the CNC4You reccomended drivers, namely the CW5045 (https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-4.5A,-50V-CNC-Microstepping-CW5045) ? Any good? The price at 39 each seems good.


I don't know of this driver, but the datasheet claims

PUL+, PUL-; Stepping pulse input+5V (Positive edge effective, pulse duration>10μSec) .

That's a bit slow (I know they claim 100kHz, but a pulse duration of >10uS?, doesn't Mach3 limit pulse width to <=5us (I could be wrong here!)

m_c
09-10-2017, 11:39 PM
If the existing steppers work, I'd be inclined to use them to begin with. Modern steppers will give a boost in performance, but as long as you fit good drivers along with a decent power supply, you'll still get reasonable performance from the original steppers.

Using an external motion controller allows for faster step outputs, and removes the step generation from the PC. Just using a PC, the step output speed is limited, and if you use Mach, the newest version of windows you can use is Win7 32bit (Win8, 10, or anything 64bit won't work).

With a stepper driven machine, you will get adequate performance with a parallel port and basic BOB, and you may not get that much in the way of performance benefit by using an external motion controller, however they do remove the problems of finding a suitable motherboard with a parallel port that will work well.

Chaz
10-10-2017, 08:10 AM
If the existing steppers work, I'd be inclined to use them to begin with. Modern steppers will give a boost in performance, but as long as you fit good drivers along with a decent power supply, you'll still get reasonable performance from the original steppers.

Using an external motion controller allows for faster step outputs, and removes the step generation from the PC. Just using a PC, the step output speed is limited, and if you use Mach, the newest version of windows you can use is Win7 32bit (Win8, 10, or anything 64bit won't work).

With a stepper driven machine, you will get adequate performance with a parallel port and basic BOB, and you may not get that much in the way of performance benefit by using an external motion controller, however they do remove the problems of finding a suitable motherboard with a parallel port that will work well.

I'm using Win 10 64 Bit for both my Lathe and Thor mill. Is this a breakoutboard limitation or something else? Im using CS Labs on Thor and Pokeys on the lathe.

m_c
10-10-2017, 10:28 AM
I'm using Win 10 64 Bit for both my Lathe and Thor mill. Is this a breakoutboard limitation or something else? Im using CS Labs on Thor and Pokeys on the lathe.

I should of maybe been a bit clearer, but that was in relation to using the parallel port. If you're not using the parallel port, then there is no restriction on what version of windows you can use, other it being new enough to support what software you're using.

Chaz
10-10-2017, 10:28 AM
I should of maybe been a bit clearer, but that was in relation to using the parallel port. If you're not using the parallel port, then there is no restriction on what version of windows you can use, other it being new enough to support what software you're using.

Ah ok, wasnt sure either. Thanks.

davidimurray
10-10-2017, 01:10 PM
I am just upgrading my Triac - started as a spindle bearing change and fix an oil leak ....... now it seems to be a full rebuild.

Actually my 3rd upgrade, first was a direct piggyback with mach 3 onto the original stepper system. Then I lost a stepper driver so decided to upgrade the drivers. Latest upgrade is some bearing changes, new spindle VFD, new stepper motors, move lube pump, redirect cables out of the back to seal the base etc.

I've run with the old steppers for 8 years and they have been fine. Only really changing as I've taken the column off to work on the lube system and it's too good an opportunity to not mess around;) If you do change motors, watch out for shaft sizes as the Triac steppers have tiny shafts, as soon as you get into decent sized motors, you will find the pulleys are too small to be bored out and you will have to put bigger pulleys, new belts etc on, which in turn reduces the torque increase benefit!

Matabele
10-10-2017, 01:13 PM
Many thanks for the replies everyone, great information here that's been a big help. I'll have a go at using the original steppers and using some decent drivers. Still have some homework to do on that regard.

Going the BoB route without the csmio will make things a bit cheaper too which is great.

One question: would using a UCS100 with its USB to Parallel connection mean I could use a 64 bit OS?

m_c
10-10-2017, 11:48 PM
One question: would using a UCS100 with its USB to Parallel connection mean I could use a 64 bit OS?

According to the manual (http://cncdrive.com/MC/UC100%20datasheet/UC100%20users%20guide.pdf), yes.

Matabele
11-10-2017, 07:56 AM
Excellent, thanks for your help m_c