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reefy86
05-12-2017, 12:07 PM
got quoted £2080 to supply and weld this table which a abit on the high price tbh :( i know most of you prefer steel due to it being alot cheaper but surely making the table out of aluminium extrusion isn't going to cost me £2080. if it wasn't such a large table i would try myself but i just aint got the confidence on welding such a large frame.

Looking at video's of people putting aluminium frames together just looks like fun and easy enough to do but then i have no idea on what methods they took to make sure they had fully flat extrusions for the rails to go on. i know on steel i was going to use epoxy resin but what do you do on aluminium?

sorry for the questions guy's i just need to start cracking on now otherwise i will just keep listening to my partner nagging telling me its just another fantasy isn't it :sorrow:

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Clive S
05-12-2017, 12:58 PM
sorry for the questions guy's i just need to start cracking on now otherwise i will just keep listening to my partner nagging telling me its just another fantasy isn't it

No prob with the questions but I might be a good idea to keep them all in one place. ie in the same thread:cower:

reefy86
05-12-2017, 01:00 PM
noted Clive :)

cropwell
05-12-2017, 04:52 PM
I would get another quote on the welding reefy, but it could be that half the price is for lifting and transporting :dejection:

reefy86
05-12-2017, 05:06 PM
well to be fair he has been the only one to actually get back to me with a quote lol, the minute i mention it needs to be perfectly square and properly made they run lol.

reefy86
05-12-2017, 09:20 PM
would it be justifiable to use heavy extrusions for a more rigid strong frame? the price difference is huge but dont mind paying for it if its a plus side for the machine.

90x90 10mm slot light version
£122.85 18.9kg

90x90 10mm slot heavy version
£198.75 31.5kg

both 3000mm long

Clive S
05-12-2017, 11:13 PM
would it be justifiable to use heavy extrusions for a more rigid strong frame? the price difference is huge but dont mind paying for it if its a plus side for the machine.

90x90 10mm slot light version
£122.85 18.9kg

90x90 10mm slot heavy version
£198.75 31.5kg

both 3000mm long

In one of your other posts did not you say you would be happy with a 4' x 4' machine!! or are you set on a 8 x 4?

bigger machines are generally much more difficult to build and thus more expensive.

Have a read through some of the very good build logs on here as that might help.

charlieuk
05-12-2017, 11:25 PM
doesn't seam a bad price to me when you consider the time and material costs. There has to be 500+ in materials and if you want it perfect then your going to need to pay for skilled labour. using 90x90 ali its going to be at least that maybe more!

reefy86
05-12-2017, 11:41 PM
forgot to mention about that clive, im sticking with the 8x4 because either way it was the width i was having a problem with not length so even if i went 4x4 i would still have the same problem but thats all sorted now and i am sticking with a 8x4.

spluppit
05-12-2017, 11:56 PM
Removed.

reefy86
06-12-2017, 12:07 AM
well considering at the moment so far its at £2600 and thats without the bits and bobs to connect it all so i am looking at £3k for 90x90 heavy. And clive i have seen some builds but nobody mentions what sort of extrusion they use in the build. i have even googled it but i am struggling with so many different types to choose from. it looks as if Bosch Rexroth are the best quality but not sure about the ITM range. the ITM only goes up to 8mm t slots where as the BR does 10mm and then there is the light or heavy.

on the cncrouter.com they do the 8x4 pro kits and you can buy the bed frame only for £600 and that machine seems to have good feedback for quality so my guess for that price they have used the lighter extrusions and looks as if they are using the 45x90 but then 45mm seems flimsy.

are most of you bald by any chance? its very stressful lol.

ill keep scrolling the forums and see if i can find anymore info and idea's :)

reefy86
06-12-2017, 12:13 AM
I have not seen other threads on this but what is the overall size and the size of the box? Is there any reason you have made this frame in a format which is basically 2 squares/rectangles joined in the middle?

In this one i produced some years ago you will see the box runs full length then all cross members and infills added after. This is the standard format used in industry and how designers would produce a frame. I have made many like this the years on a slab (large surface plate, not a welding table) This ensures the best flatness possible within the constraints of the material.

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If your frame is as big as it looks and they have a slab that big, then its a fair price in my view if those boxes are as big as they look. Also the way you have designed it as mentioned as 2 squares joined has not helped the costs, it makes it harder to keep it as flat as possible as apposed to having the box run full length,

No reason other then recommendations which proves to be very strong and sturdy, but for those who can weld its not so much of a trouble with mild steel being very cheap but for me having to find someone to weld it for me then all those pieces to weld is costing a fortune.

reefy86
06-12-2017, 12:51 AM
I see good old Dean is famous in the united states too :)

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spluppit
06-12-2017, 12:55 AM
Removed

reefy86
06-12-2017, 05:10 AM
I'm going to go down the aluminium extrusion route after all and for a few reasons, the obvious one is i aint welding all that steel and i defiantly haven't got the funds to pay someone that amount as well as having the funds to pay 3 months upfront deposit on a new workshop unit and then the frame on top lol. I know its worth the price what the guy offered but i just can't afford it on top of everything else.

Now there is 2 options and option 2 does have diagonal support i just couldn't be bothered to add them in lol

option 1

copy the cnc pro kit 4896 from cncrouter.com (frame bed only) costing me just under £1k which is using the 40x80 profiles but the heavier ones

option 2

80x120 with less profiles then the 40x80 costing just over £1k but these are the light profiles not the heavy ones

i know its way more expensive then steel but i am not as lucky as most of you with welding skills and i can always add to the frame once more funds come in. personally i prefer option 2 as it looks way more solid but would like your opinion and if and where i should add extra support.

Appreciate the help guy's


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Clive S
06-12-2017, 09:39 AM
I look after a machine that is built similar to option 2 built by a company with initials like MD:miserable: and it does work and cuts 8x4 sheets of 6mm MDF all day.

the rack & pinion seems to be fine and the rack is mounted inside the slot on the side of the top rail.

Have you thought how you are going to drive it and what motors etc.

m_c
06-12-2017, 09:49 AM
I know you are going on other designs but all this generally means is.... someone that isn't an Engineer or a fabricator came up with a design, made it and it worked, and that then sets a president others follow. That does mean mean its good design all it means is someone proved it worked. In the same breath if that design had been done by someone with a lot of experience then that would have been the president and far easier to get a lot better result.

You'll not last long in the DIY CNC world with sensical observations and comments like that ;-)



Listen to what sluppit has said.
I took one look at your design last night, and immediately wondered how many tonnes you were planning on having on it, and why it wasn't using full length sections on the long edges. It looks to me like you've just kept adding bits, without really thinking about why you would need to add them, and ended up with an over complicated design.

reefy86
06-12-2017, 10:28 AM
I look after a machine that is built similar to option 2 built by a company with initials like MD:miserable: and it does work and cuts 8x4 sheets of 6mm MDF all day.

the rack & pinion seems to be fine and the rack is mounted inside the slot on the side of the top rail.

Have you thought how you are going to drive it and what motors etc.

yeah i already have 90% of the electronics planned out with the help from Dean using high quality ballscrews/hiwin rails/rotating ballnuts for the long y axis. even though i said i was going to copy of cncrouter.com that was just for the bed but everything else will be better and defiantly will be wanting to cut thicker then 6mm all day lol :)

reefy86
06-12-2017, 10:30 AM
You'll not last long in the DIY CNC world with sensical observations and comments like that ;-)



Listen to what sluppit has said.
I took one look at your design last night, and immediately wondered how many tonnes you were planning on having on it, and why it wasn't using full length sections on the long edges. It looks to me like you've just kept adding bits, without really thinking about why you would need to add them, and ended up with an over complicated design.

it wasn't complicated until i finished in solidworks and then reality hit :)

spluppit
06-12-2017, 03:46 PM
Removed.

reefy86
06-12-2017, 03:58 PM
if it was cheap enough to make mistakes then sometimes its good to make them before getting the right advice from here, That way you get to learn what works and what dont work but unfortunately this is a hobby that is just too expensive to just ignore good advice. I don't think dean realises just how much i appreciated all his help from emails out of his own time which i have kept and still read them :)

spluppit
06-12-2017, 04:49 PM
Removed

reefy86
06-12-2017, 08:47 PM
£1580 for the one you have provided mate so still expensive

spluppit
06-12-2017, 09:55 PM
Removed

reefy86
06-12-2017, 10:11 PM
Whats with the attitude you keep giving me? don't want to sound like like a twat to you and i do appreciate the time you are giving to help but i didnt ask you to make or do anything for me. i have said many times i am going the aluminium profile route because either way its going to cost me around £500 for the material and then there is no way someone will do that frame for me for under £500 and i don't blame them. the design you shown me looks alot more simple then mine and you said to use 80mm instead of 90mm so that should of been cheaper. The guy who has quoted me is off facebook that got recommended to me, so i sent him that as a rough example and he quoted me £1580 without the extra bits i would of added on. like i said earlier because im not as skilled as most of you by the time ive payed someone to do it and bought all the material its going to cost me almost as much as what the aluminium profiles is costing. the whole point of going steel is because its cheaper and i know its more rigid but the aluminium also has an advantage for resonance so either way i choose its going to cost me the same or maybe a little more.

again i don't mean to sound harsh but i didnt ask you to send me any files or do any work and i already said a few times im going with aluminium but you keep posting with more steel advice :)

spluppit
06-12-2017, 10:35 PM
My mistake. Offending posts removed. I wish you luck with your build.

reefy86
06-12-2017, 10:48 PM
I wasn't offended and you are all more then welcome to give any criticism, i was just trying to explain that i didn't expect the cost of welding to be so expensive as i know nothing about welding. my budget for the frame is £1100 and it would of been more if i didnt need to look for a new workshop. I also understand what you mean about why i don't get replies back from companies with an over the top frame on top of asking for perfection and i didn't ask any more companies for a quote because i had already decided to go the aluminium route but i was curious to see what the guy would charge for your frame you sent me. so i do apologise for any confusion in any of this and i really do appreciate what ever advice good or bad.

magicniner
07-12-2017, 12:30 AM
Welding and all measurable physical work is going through the roof price-wise, £10 per inch is not now uncommon.
I was quoted £200 for a small (40mm x 200mm) welded patch on the inner sill of my wife's 20 year old Mk1 MX-5, as soon as I started talking about job quality and "semi-restoration standards" i.e. not just welding a patch across everything visible the guy looked a bit ill - I did it myself as in a previous life I was a panel beater and worked in classic car restoration (photos on request).
I'd suggest buying a welding set and learning to weld, then doing it yourself, that way you'll have the equipment and the skills, if you pay someone else all you have is their invoice. ;-)

reefy86
07-12-2017, 12:45 AM
ill try and look for a frame that is more suited and price it up and see if its worth while just risking it. Dont blame me when im posting on here every single time i press that trigger lmao :)

magicniner
07-12-2017, 12:52 AM
Can you not see this as an opportunity to gain equipment and a skill set and still spend less money?
I've taught 3 of my friends to MIG weld to a good standard and to understand how to set up the machine for a variety of jobs in the last 2 months, one is doing a very nice job of customising a motorcycle frame, his welding is now very good,
Regards,
Nick

reefy86
07-12-2017, 01:10 AM
if you was to ask me to weld a steel shelf up or repair a car exhaust then id happily try learning it but its getting the frame squared perfectly and then making sure the steel that the rail goes on is welded down with no twist ect that scares the shit out of me. i see these sort of comments that makes me understand and feel better

"Clamp your work to a surface that will keep it square, use plenty of tack welds, and dont weld opposite corners because it will tend to push your square into a paralellogram."

and then this straight after that buts me back to square one lol

"if you have a part that must be square, simply make a lighter root pass to hold everything in place, then fill the joint up to a level that is nessecary.

Also if you are welding thick metal, pre heat it, it will prevent cracking of your welds, and it will prevent "pulling" by the weldments."

reefy86
07-12-2017, 01:23 AM
would this be useful i just heard of it watching a video but not sure of the accuracy

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magicniner
07-12-2017, 01:28 AM
So design your base so that the two rails which must be in the horizontal plane bolt to it!
Hey Presto!
No machining!
No Epoxy!

If you pay for fuel I'll provide use of my Optical Clinometer which is good for ridiculous tolerance when you level the feet for the base and then set the rails.

reefy86
07-12-2017, 03:53 AM
appreciate that mate ill get back to you on that one once i have the frame partially built. ive just come across this and would like to know if that frame is capable of doing what he says he is doing? ive never seen a table like this before what do you think. also would 80x80x4mm be thick enough or does it need to be 5mm

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/madvac/madvac_index.htm

Desertboy
07-12-2017, 08:43 AM
if you was to ask me to weld a steel shelf up or repair a car exhaust then id happily try learning it but its getting the frame squared perfectly and then making sure the steel that the rail goes on is welded down with no twist ect that scares the shit out of me. i see these sort of comments that makes me understand and feel better

"Clamp your work to a surface that will keep it square, use plenty of tack welds, and dont weld opposite corners because it will tend to push your square into a paralellogram."

and then this straight after that buts me back to square one lol

"if you have a part that must be square, simply make a lighter root pass to hold everything in place, then fill the joint up to a level that is nessecary.

Also if you are welding thick metal, pre heat it, it will prevent cracking of your welds, and it will prevent "pulling" by the weldments."

One suggestion why not buy a 2nd hand machine and do it up, then you haven't got to make a frame.

reefy86
07-12-2017, 11:09 AM
ive tried looking mate but cant find any

m_c
07-12-2017, 11:35 AM
The key to welding something well, is preparation.
All bits have to be a good fit before welding, it's then a case of tacking, and alternating where you weld to balance out any twisting.

Something you really have to appreciate, is just how much weld beads will shrink/pull when cooled, which is why you want a good fit, and do alternate welds to balance any pulling.

Alternatively, you could just bolt it all together, however you run the risk of knocking it out of square.

reefy86
07-12-2017, 11:49 AM
well after watching a lot of youtube video's i am starting to come up with a method and feel a little better however after getting the materials and all necessary equipment/tools then its still going to cost me £1k+ anyway but i suppose i learn a new skill trade in the process.

reefy86
07-12-2017, 06:47 PM
anything wrong with this frame and is the diagonal supports ott? i will be adding adjustable feet on aswell

cheers

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JoeHarris
07-12-2017, 07:21 PM
For what's it's worth I was not confident welding either, so made mine in several welded parts which where more manageable then used bolted connections to fix them together and finally tacked it together once it was all squared up. It is actually not that critical to have the frame perfect as you will most likely need to level it with epoxy anyway and so long as the rails are parallel the support under them does not need to be perfect. Basically what I'm saying is I'd have a go yourself and spend the money you save on the other parts!


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reefy86
07-12-2017, 07:34 PM
i ain't saving any money lol not when you take into account that i need welding equipment/free standing press drill/new angle grinder/clamps/straight edges :lemo: but on the plus side ill be adding to my new workshop full off tools that will be needed in the future anyway. the frame as it stands in materials is costing me £725 and thats for 90x90x5mm mild steel

reefy86
07-12-2017, 10:25 PM
any tips on the frame guy's? also have a few question's

1. what welder do you recommend for welding 90x90x5mm steel
2. do you wait until all the frame is together before you drill holes and fill with sand
3. best method used for drilling and tapping for the linear rails

cheers

Boyan Silyavski
07-12-2017, 10:33 PM
My 8x4 had roughly 700kg in it , which translates to 800 euros, 100 euros for gas, 60 euros for MIG wire.1 day receiving and cutting the material, about 2 full days of welding it alone by myself. Yes i moved it alone around here. Managed to do it at around 1mm precision or less.

250Amp MIG which cost me around 350 euros and 300e Rage Saw were previous investment, when i decided i will fabricate things. And 500kg welding table / which i made later/

I will charge at least 2000 at the blink of an eye for that job, especially having in mind that i welded it slowly so it's not under stress.

Similar frame will cost more than 2500 in aluminum and will take same amount of time to put together. A week.


My advice is to go 100x100x3mm if you do it at home, as bigger is no good to cut by any means. Best will be if you speak with someone local and design your frame with bigger beams as possible, say 200x200, which will greatly simplify things. You will have to find someone who does metal structures , for them these beams are small in their mind. They may even have some scrap enough to build a house.

reefy86
07-12-2017, 10:42 PM
was ordering the steel from metals4u.co.uk cut to size, i forgot to ask that question as well so thanks for that boyan, I do not have access to a welding table and i do want to try and keep the cost down so what would you recommend welding the frame on? i was thinking of doing a cheap wooden frame and make sure its level and use a sheet of mdf on top for flatness

Boyan Silyavski
07-12-2017, 11:04 PM
I welded it on the floor, using the larger beams themselves for base. Basically the correct way will be to spot weld the outside frame. Then make sure all is straight and knock here and there with the big mallet. Then weld. Then insert inside beams, use scrap or washers to adjust to a tight fit so after welding it does not contract.

Do not worry, first frame ever i welded with stick welder and was welding for first time.


The main thing to understand when welding is very simple but crucial: "You are making a molten pool and moving it around" . All else serves for that to happen, that means you must think only about that, not thinking angles of electrode, this and that. See that pool, maintain it and move it around or up and down. That's it. I believe many welders do think of other stuff than the pool when welding. I am talking about DIY welders like us.

reefy86
07-12-2017, 11:54 PM
thanks boyan, about the frame do you think i am on the right track with the frame design? i just want to get the design nailed so i can crack on with pricing and getting required tools ect.

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m_c
07-12-2017, 11:58 PM
Weld it on as flat a surface as you can.

If I was going to do something like that, I'd be buying a big spirit level to ensure the main frame was set as level as possible to welding, and a big set square for ease of checking things are square during initial setup (I'd also be measuring corner to corner to check squareness after the initial tacks are in place).

If you order metal pre-cut, you may still have to grind it to length, as cut tolerances can be quite big (typically -0mm to + several mm).

As for welder, I'd go for something in the 150-200A range. You won't need that much capacity, but at that rating you shouldn't need to worry about duty cycle. Ideally gas MIG is better, but the cost of gas can mount up if you're using disposable bottles, and the rent on full size bottles is quite costly. There are suppliers where you can buy bottles, but you really need to find one locally, and check to see how much the gas works out to per litre (some of the schemes where you buy bottles don't fill bottles to that high a pressure, so you don't actually get much value for money).
Other option is gasless MIG using flux cored wire, but then you have to deal with flux/slag cleanup afterwards (best way to describe is, is it's pretty much ARC welding, but with a roll of wire instead of rods).

JoeHarris
07-12-2017, 11:59 PM
If you don't want the cost of mig I had pretty good success with a cheap Clarke stick welder from machine mart. No gas to buy either. Defiantly get an auto darkening visor though and some decent rods. For a welding table i bought a massive lump of 12mm steel plate from a guy in Telford for about £20. I found welding very satisfying!


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JoeHarris
08-12-2017, 12:02 AM
Helpful video:
https://youtu.be/Z2B36psoNQ4


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JoeHarris
08-12-2017, 12:08 AM
Ps I find it hard to comment on a frame without seeing it in context with the rest of the machine but on the face of it it looks pretty solid


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reefy86
08-12-2017, 12:12 AM
Thanks guy's. i already had in mind to get plenty of clamps, a large spirit level and large straight square edges so i'm glad i was on the right track.

cropwell
08-12-2017, 12:15 AM
was ordering the steel from metals4u.co.uk cut to size, i forgot to ask that question as well so thanks for that boyan, I do not have access to a welding table and i do want to try and keep the cost down so what would you recommend welding the frame on? i was thinking of doing a cheap wooden frame and make sure its level and use a sheet of mdf on top for flatness

Reefy, have you tried Nottingham Steel at Colwick, they will cut to size and they are probably cheaper !
Weld UK at Pinxton have got some heavy duty clamps at £60. I called in in person for one and asked how much they could do two for cash and it was a good discount !
https://www.welduk.com/product/sip-07649-9-welders-angle-clamp

reefy86
08-12-2017, 12:19 AM
No not tried them mate, i will give them a call tomorrow so thanks for that

Boyan Silyavski
08-12-2017, 12:43 AM
Do not try to make all like 2000mm, for example. make it 2003mm but parallel and square. Hence you don't need the pieces to be super precisely cut. You will definitely need a box of washers though, to fill the cracks. Remember that your final epoxy cast below rails will be 40mm wide, and rails are 20mm wide. The ???what was the name of it, the epoxy that lifted to the sides due to attraction will be 3-4mm each side, so basically you will be able to position the rails within that margin of the rest 10mm. hence do the gantry when you have finished and measured your final base frame, not at the same time.

And as you have been told, not bigger stitches than 2 inch at a time and place, and no higher overall temp of the beam than 60C. When you reach that temp, leave to cool before continue.

You will be tempted to hurry, but take your time and do it properly, you are not welding a typical welders job. I would go as far as to say that i will not trust a normal welder to do that job, as the moment i turn my back he will make 2 meter stitch

PS. best is to use hard stop ruler or a contraption to make all exact same distance

reefy86
08-12-2017, 12:15 PM
Reefy, have you tried Nottingham Steel at Colwick, they will cut to size and they are probably cheaper !
Weld UK at Pinxton have got some heavy duty clamps at £60. I called in in person for one and asked how much they could do two for cash and it was a good discount !
https://www.welduk.com/product/sip-07649-9-welders-angle-clamp

Bloody hell i gave them a call and they are almost half cheaper and they are right next to me so that's a bonus. cheers again mate

reefy86
08-12-2017, 12:18 PM
Do not try to make all like 2000mm, for example. make it 2003mm but parallel and square. Hence you don't need the pieces to be super precisely cut. You will definitely need a box of washers though, to fill the cracks. Remember that your final epoxy cast below rails will be 40mm wide, and rails are 20mm wide. The ???what was the name of it, the epoxy that lifted to the sides due to attraction will be 3-4mm each side, so basically you will be able to position the rails within that margin of the rest 10mm. hence do the gantry when you have finished and measured your final base frame, not at the same time.

And as you have been told, not bigger stitches than 2 inch at a time and place, and no higher overall temp of the beam than 60C. When you reach that temp, leave to cool before continue.

You will be tempted to hurry, but take your time and do it properly, you are not welding a typical welders job. I would go as far as to say that i will not trust a normal welder to do that job, as the moment i turn my back he will make 2 meter stitch

PS. best is to use hard stop ruler or a contraption to make all exact same distance

cheers mate, How do you know what temperature you are at?

Boyan Silyavski
08-12-2017, 02:05 PM
cheers mate, How do you know what temperature you are at?

I have laser thermometer, but when it starts to feel too hot to the touch, thats it

reefy86
08-12-2017, 03:08 PM
thank you

reefy86
08-12-2017, 03:35 PM
just ringing up some local places but before i do how much gas do you think ill be using? i have no idea if 10 litres or a thousand litres and i defiantly do not want to run out halfway through lol.

what do you think of this welder

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MIG-WELDER-250-AMP-COMO-NEW-BOXED-EURO-TORCH-2-year-warranty-reduced-last-few/312019777887?hash=item48a5d3f95f:g:PrMAAOSwEzxYR~E 6

cropwell
08-12-2017, 04:38 PM
just ringing up some local places but before i do how much gas do you think ill be using? i have no idea if 10 litres or a thousand litres and i defiantly do not want to run out halfway through lol.

what do you think of this welder

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MIG-WELDER-250-AMP-COMO-NEW-BOXED-EURO-TORCH-2-year-warranty-reduced-last-few/312019777887?hash=item48a5d3f95f:g:PrMAAOSwEzxYR~E 6

It looks OK, but just be aware that it should not run off a 13A socket.

As far as gas is concerned, get a cylinder, the disposables will cost a fortune and only last about 20 minutes (if you are lucky). There are two options Rent or Buy, Renting will cost you more and if you buy you can go pub gas or argon welding mix. Pub gas (Carbon dioxide) is cheaper but the proper weld mix gives better results https://www.hobbyweld.co.uk is a good place to look. Don't forget you will also need a regulator and flow meter.

I would also recommend an auto-darkening mask.

EddyCurrent
08-12-2017, 04:54 PM
anything wrong with this frame and is the diagonal supports ott? i will be adding adjustable feet on aswell

cheers

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You forgot diagonals when looking in the plan view, see here what I mean; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6565-Ready-Steady-Eddy?p=52425#post52425

reefy86
08-12-2017, 04:54 PM
Thank you cropwell i will look more into this.

cheers

reefy86
08-12-2017, 04:56 PM
You forgot diagonals when looking in the plan vew, see here what I mean; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6565-Ready-Steady-Eddy?p=52425#post52425

Thanks eddy ill add these in :)

reefy86
09-12-2017, 03:27 AM
if only you could get the steel this clean lol, anyways i know i did this all before but ive done a few tweaks but i am a little concerned with the gantry side plates being so wide and because the aluminium gantry beam is pushed to the back it leaves a large space on the flange plates. this is because i was reading about not having the z axis over hanging and to have the gantry side plates in front of the z axis.

I have gone with 100x100x5mm all round for the frame
all plates are 20mm thick aluminium
linear rails 25mm
ballscrews r2010 driven on both sides with nema 23's 4nm and a rotating ball nut due to long 3000mm ballscrews

still thinking for the rest but whats your thoughts?

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reefy86
09-12-2017, 04:32 AM
is £400 the going rate for 3 meter ballscrews r2010?

reefy86
10-12-2017, 01:33 PM
noob question here with it being the first time tapping a hole my self if the linear rails holes are 4.5mm what would the tap size be to the aluminium plate its attaching to?

routercnc
10-12-2017, 02:36 PM
noob question here with it being the first time tapping a hole my self if the linear rails holes are 4.5mm what would the tap size be to the aluminium plate its attaching to?

If the holes really are 4.5 mm diameter in the rail they are expecting you to use M4 cap head bolts to allow some adjustment. You need a 3.3 mm drill for the pilot drill, followed by an M4 x 0.7 pitch tap (coarse thread).

But I would expect a 25 mm rail to use M6 cap heads? If so these would need a 5mm pilot hole then an M6 x 1 pitch tap (coarse thread).

JoeHarris
10-12-2017, 02:40 PM
What's with the parquet bed?!


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cropwell
10-12-2017, 02:41 PM
noob question here with it being the first time tapping a hole my self if the linear rails holes are 4.5mm what would the tap size be to the aluminium plate its attaching to?

I didn't think they would be that small, an M4 screw is pretty weedy, there must be lots of them:nightmare:. As a good rule of thumb tap drill size is screw diameter - thread pitch, so for M4 normally 0.5mm pitch would mean a 3.5 mm drill.

reefy86
10-12-2017, 02:43 PM
If the holes really are 4.5 mm diameter in the rail they are expecting you to use M4 cap head bolts to allow some adjustment. You need a 3.3 mm drill for the pilot drill, followed by an M4 x 0.7 pitch tap (coarse thread).

But I would expect a 25 mm rail to use M6 cap heads? If so these would need a 5mm pilot hole then an M6 x 1 pitch tap (coarse thread).

its 4.5mm on the 15mm rails for the z axis.

thanks again

reefy86
10-12-2017, 02:44 PM
What's with the parquet bed?!


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using keyshot as a quick render and was looking in the wood library and thought this looked quirky lol

cropwell
10-12-2017, 02:44 PM
If the holes really are 4.5 mm diameter in the rail they are expecting you to use M4 cap head bolts to allow some adjustment. You need a 3.3 mm drill for the pilot drill, followed by an M4 x 0.7 pitch tap (coarse thread).

But I would expect a 25 mm rail to use M6 cap heads? If so these would need a 5mm pilot hole then an M6 x 1 pitch tap (coarse thread).

Why a coarse thread ?

reefy86
10-12-2017, 02:45 PM
I didn't think they would be that small, an M4 screw is pretty weedy, there must be lots of them:nightmare:. As a good rule of thumb tap drill size is screw diameter - thread pitch, so for M4 normally 0.5mm pitch would mean a 3.5 mm drill.

Helpful cheers for that

JoeHarris
10-12-2017, 02:48 PM
using keyshot as a quick render and was looking in the wood library and thought this looked quirky lol

Yes it looks cool! Not such a good idea in reality?! Wish I could afford keyshot, looks amazing. Btw you probably won't need two mounts for the spindle and it will make it harder to align.


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reefy86
10-12-2017, 02:54 PM
Yes it looks cool! Not such a good idea in reality?! Wish I could afford keyshot, looks amazing. Btw you probably won't need two mounts for the spindle and it will make it harder to align.


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you can get better results using vray in 3ds max but i can't be bothered to spend hours making materials and setting render up lol. thanks for the heads up on the mount i will remove one of them

routercnc
10-12-2017, 02:56 PM
OK, then either:
pilot 3.3 mm for an M4 x 0.7 (coarse thread)
pilot 3.5 mm for an M4 x 0.5 (fine thread)

In general I would use coarse thread, especially into aluminium. Get a countersink to clean up the hole and get snug fit of the rail onto the plate - snail countersinks are great.

Also, thread lock (the type you can undo) the screw into the hole as the spindle vibration can undo them.

reefy86
10-12-2017, 03:00 PM
thanks mate ill take a look at those

reefy86
10-12-2017, 03:07 PM
OK, then either:
pilot 3.3 mm for an M4 x 0.7 (coarse thread)
pilot 3.5 mm for an M4 x 0.5 (fine thread)

In general I would use coarse thread, especially into aluminium. Get a countersink to clean up the hole and get snug fit of the rail onto the plate - snail countersinks are great.

Also, thread lock (the type you can undo) the screw into the hole as the spindle vibration can undo them.

is this what you was talking about for thread lock or is it the stuff in a bottle?
http://www.longlok.com/s.nl/it.A/id.42699/.f

spluppit
10-12-2017, 03:11 PM
Before he goes and drills the wrong size tapping hole. Metric coarse is M4 x.7 which is the standard metric range. So you need a 3.3 tapping drill.

Sorry, posts crossed having a crappy slow internet today and refresh problems.

EddyCurrent
10-12-2017, 03:32 PM
Inside the box section I used a length of 6mm flat strap to increase the thread length for the rails; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6565-Ready-Steady-Eddy?p=54981#post54981
If you are using the epoxy levelling method, don't forget to allow some thread length for that.

Neale
10-12-2017, 04:08 PM
Rather than asking here for tapping size drills for each size, just google for "tapping size for metric threads" - there are plenty of tables of sizes around that will give you everything you need. The only thing to watch is that there are various pitches for each nominal diameter - hence metric coarse, metric fine, etc. Generally you find metric coarse (if you just ask for M4, M6, etc, that's what you will generally get), but you should be able to read the pitch off the tap to double-check.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask questions - just that there are easier ways to find some information for when you want the answer NOW and not when someone gets round to answering!

reefy86
12-12-2017, 05:33 AM
where do you guy's get your linear rails from? looking through the threads on here and people recommend aliexpress but the postage is more then the rail. Its 187 dollars for 3000mm 25mm hiwin rail and 206 dollars to post to uk 393 dollars total

JoeHarris
12-12-2017, 07:15 AM
where do you guy's get your linear rails from? looking through the threads on here and people recommend aliexpress but the postage is more then the rail. Its 187 dollars for 3000mm 25mm hiwin rail and 206 dollars to post to uk 393 dollars total

Got mine from BST Automation on AliExpress and they come recommended. One carriage was dodgy so they sent a new one without any hassle. But the postage will be a lot I'm afraid. If you look at the cost of buying in the U.K. though, you will see why most buy direct from china!

Nr1madman
12-12-2017, 07:15 AM
When I looked around aliexpress was best value.. sometimes you can find a deal on ebay aswell! Have you checked the prices on uk sites? If you compare its much cheaper to pay £200 for shipping.
I think I added about 30 to get everything shipped in a wood box to eliminate freight damages

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reefy86
12-12-2017, 07:34 AM
zappautomation was my first choice but they are £300 each, i have found cnc4you at £160 each so not too bad and with aliexpress it would be nice if could or multiple and save on postage but postage seems to double

cropwell
12-12-2017, 10:18 AM
Hi Reefy,

I think that some traders on Aliexpress keep the price low and the postage high for two reasons 1 it keeps the customs declared value down, so you pay less import charges and VAT and 2 it keeps the refundable amount low if you return goods that are not faulty.

JoeHarris
12-12-2017, 10:20 AM
If you order screws, spindle, VFD etc. at the same time it will mean you only pay delivery once.


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Boyan Silyavski
12-12-2017, 12:26 PM
HI, thats how to rectify something, if you mess things up :hysterical: and weld too fast

23387


I am joking, just tack all in place, rectify with a mallet and then weld. But things like that happen, when i am in a hurry.

you can evaluate the option of buying chinese Hiwin type rails. last time i had great success, But the key is to buy from somewhere you know its not crap, hence directly from the manufacturer. Problem is , i said it somewhere, in China they sale linear rails at every corner shop.

I bought 10m of MGN12 from this guys and they were TOP quality, hardened rails and the carriages were good and sliding well https://es.aliexpress.com/store/group/HGH20-linear-guide/822038_507535040.html?spm=a219c.12010608.0.0.66f4a 665DnQrsc

All you risk is eventually changing the balls of a bearing block that does not slide well. But usually it will be because is just dirty.

reefy86
12-12-2017, 04:35 PM
HI, thats how to rectify something, if you mess things up :hysterical: and weld too fast

23387


I am joking, just tack all in place, rectify with a mallet and then weld. But things like that happen, when i am in a hurry.

you can evaluate the option of buying chinese Hiwin type rails. last time i had great success, But the key is to buy from somewhere you know its not crap, hence directly from the manufacturer. Problem is , i said it somewhere, in China they sale linear rails at every corner shop.

I bought 10m of MGN12 from this guys and they were TOP quality, hardened rails and the carriages were good and sliding well https://es.aliexpress.com/store/group/HGH20-linear-guide/822038_507535040.html?spm=a219c.12010608.0.0.66f4a 665DnQrsc

All you risk is eventually changing the balls of a bearing block that does not slide well. But usually it will be because is just dirty.

Haha hope it don't come to that lol. i'm pretty confident now after watching tons of video's but i am a sucker for getting inpatient and tend to automatically move a little faster now and again so i really need to keep that in check lol.

reefy86
12-12-2017, 04:37 PM
Hi Reefy,

I think that some traders on Aliexpress keep the price low and the postage high for two reasons 1 it keeps the customs declared value down, so you pay less import charges and VAT and 2 it keeps the refundable amount low if you return goods that are not faulty.

cheers makes sense

reefy86
12-12-2017, 04:38 PM
If you order screws, spindle, VFD etc. at the same time it will mean you only pay delivery once.


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looking into this now, cheers

reefy86
12-12-2017, 04:42 PM
Will i notice anything from a c5 ballscrew to a c7? also will i be losing any benefits if i go with 2525 screws and use a belt ratio to bring it down to 2510 spec? reason i ask is because the 2525 are on offer but they are c7's and its only £140 for 3000mm lengths where as a 2510 only do c5's but they are £400 each

m_c
12-12-2017, 05:50 PM
C5 has better tolerance that C7.

IIRC C7 is usually just rolled, whereas C5 is generally ground. I'm sure a google search will turn up a chart with the various tolerances.

reefy86
12-12-2017, 05:59 PM
i can get the all the required specs from google as you say but then i have no idea if the tolerance from a c5 is over the top for wood and 5-10mm acrylic.

Clive S
12-12-2017, 06:05 PM
i can get the all the required specs from google as you say but then i have no idea if the tolerance from a c5 is over the top for wood and 5-10mm acrylic.

I would say that the majority of people on here use C7

reefy86
12-12-2017, 06:10 PM
Thanks clive, i Don't mind shedding out for c5's if i have to but would prefer the c7's if they will do the job because for every ball screw i save money on gets me a hiwin rail

reefy86
14-12-2017, 04:46 PM
Where do you guys get your aluminium plates from and what grade is recommended? been looking through and aluminium warehouse seems to have a bad rep so they are out, also do you drill your self or get someone to do them for you because i have just ordered a second hand drill press but with this being my first time i thought i would ask.

cropwell
14-12-2017, 07:54 PM
Where do you guys get your aluminium plates from and what grade is recommended? been looking through and aluminium warehouse seems to have a bad rep so they are out, also do you drill your self or get someone to do them for you because i have just ordered a second hand drill press but with this being my first time i thought i would ask.

https://www.forwardmetals.co.uk

I have only used them 3 times, but they seem good for ali plate. They may not do the ecocast though.

reefy86
14-12-2017, 08:03 PM
Thank you

routercnc
14-12-2017, 08:24 PM
I've used aluminium warehouse several times for my current build and they have been great. Good finish and accurate.
They did send one large block incorrectly (a big piece about 100x100x250 is what I ordered but I received a round block 100 dia x 250)

Phoned up to ask what to do and they said just keep it. ~2 days later the square block arrived FOC. I was pleased with that as it was ~£40

Might be a prototype spindle cartridge housing for the drawbar/ATC project in the distant future

They do regular and ecocast and prices not too bad

I know others have been unlucky in the past but I've not had a bad experience so far and would use again

So get all the experiences together and make a choice . . .

reefy86
14-12-2017, 08:58 PM
cheers ill keep looking out.

Desertboy
14-12-2017, 09:31 PM
I've used aluminium warehouse a few times for various things always been spot on for me.

reefy86
15-12-2017, 10:48 AM
Well tried 3 different places including aluminium warehouse and asked for a quote for just the side gantry plates and all 3 have said they don't do a cutting service for that shape. how are you guys getting your plates cut and do you just drill your self?

JoeHarris
15-12-2017, 10:50 AM
Well tried 3 different places including aluminium warehouse and asked for a quote for just the side gantry plates and all 3 have said they don't do a cutting service for that shape. how are you guys getting your plates cut and do you just drill your self?

This is how I did it?! Proceed with caution!!


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1FIADAKba_vww3ZjQf-dWEjqhAPJw0Bz

reefy86
15-12-2017, 10:55 AM
Thanks joe, i don't have half those tools to make it look neat lol, i look into it though

JoeHarris
15-12-2017, 11:23 AM
I got the router 2nd hand off eBay and started by making mdf templates and jigs. It's not very hard or expensive just takes a bit of time as you can only take 0.5mm passes.


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EddyCurrent
15-12-2017, 11:36 AM
Similar here, I used a sabre saw to rough cut the parts out of a large piece, then used a pin router with templates and finally a belt sander to smooth the edges.
Slow but achievable.

reefy86
16-12-2017, 06:07 PM
I know i must be doing your lots head in asking all the time and i apologise for this, are the aluminium extrusions straight enough for the gantry beam rails? I am using resin for the steal beams along the x asis and if i was also using steel for the y axis gantry then i would use resin there too but what about the aluminium extrusions?

Desertboy
17-12-2017, 05:15 AM
Easiest solution for your plates is to get a fellow member to make them for you on their router (This is what I did). In which case it's probably cheaper to find someone to make your plates and have them sent directly to them than send them to you and then on again.

If you design your plates so they only need to be milled on one side you will make the job a lot easier.

If you do make them yourself then make them from ply/mdf/wood first before you attempt to make them from aluminium, it's a good idea to prototype in wood first anyway I didn't and in the end I had to do some post processing work because of it. My Z axis plate was catching the BK fittings limiting my travel a simple mistake due to using wrong carriage model for my Hiwin's and making last minute changes before cutting without noticing the Z.

reefy86
18-12-2017, 10:02 AM
Don't want to be insulting to anyone regarding price but personally i think this is disgusting but then i am no expert on whats worth what when it comes to stuff like this. i have been quoted just under £2k just for 4 pieces and 2 of those pieces are only small plates for the rails

23427

JoeHarris
18-12-2017, 10:11 AM
Honestly mate those pieces do not need CNC?! Just a drill press and a saw. I would spend you money on a bandsaw and a drill press which you will need later anyway and tell those guys where to go! If you by ecocast it is flat enough and if you take your time you can be plenty accurate enough without a CNC machine??


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reefy86
18-12-2017, 10:14 AM
cheers mate, this was a quote i asked for before you guy's advised on doing the methods you suggested, it just came through this morning and i almost spat my coffee out lol.

Desertboy
18-12-2017, 10:24 AM
Don't want to be insulting to anyone regarding price but personally i think this is disgusting but then i am no expert on whats worth what when it comes to stuff like this. i have been quoted just under £2k just for 4 pieces and 2 of those pieces are only small plates for the rails

23427

I think 1 or 2 guys on here might be able to beat that quote lol.

You're not the only person on here to get crazy quotes for simple jobs Alex was quoted crazy prices to.

It might be an area thing because I got much more reasonable quotes in Leicester ranging from £200 (If I supplied material) to £400.

reefy86
18-12-2017, 10:32 AM
i'm going to order the plates and practice on a spare piece and see how i go first. would defiantly need the z axis plates being machined though as that has grooves cut out for the ballscrew mounts.

mekanik
18-12-2017, 10:34 AM
[QUOTE=JoeHarris;98003]Honestly mate those pieces do not need CNC?! Just a drill press and a saw. I would spend you money on a bandsaw and a drill press which you will need later anyway and tell those guys where to go! If you by ecocast it is flat enough and if you take your time you can be plenty accurate enough without a CNC machine??


+1

Nr1madman
18-12-2017, 10:38 AM
Omg! Crazy prices!
I recomend desertboys advice and ask forum members for help.
For reference I got all my plates milled, pocketed, tapped and ground for about £200. Material included. 15 and 20mm thick steel.
The guy was super nice so I basically paid for material cost in weight and a tap that broke during the job.
I was lucky to find a member on a forum locally in sweden :)

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Desertboy
18-12-2017, 10:47 AM
I had recesses on most of my plates which is why I had to have them cnc'd out I know Joe did it in his amazing thread with a router but that's beyond me lol.

I put recesses in my gantry plates so the extrusion sits 5mm into the plates (20mm thick plates) and I will do this on every router I ever build again, never seen anyone do it but I've took a lot of commercial magazine printers apart (my router is made from one) and their gantries are always recessed.

reefy86
18-12-2017, 10:57 AM
wouldn't that make it awkward for adjusting though?

reefy86
18-12-2017, 10:58 AM
ordered all my steel and paid for my new workshop unit ready to move in on the 5th of january so i am looking forward to sharing with you guys the progression especially from someone who knows naff all lol

Desertboy
18-12-2017, 11:08 AM
wouldn't that make it awkward for adjusting though?

I can't adjust anything on my router lol, I'm relying on the quality of KJN aluminium (Extrusion) cutting and drilling and the quality of the plates my machine is made with. Also the straightness of aluminium extrusion.

Anything you can adjust is a potential failure point it's fine for you guys with better build quality than myself but for me if I can adjust it I can break it lol.

It's not quite true because I can home my Y axis independently to square the gantry.

reefy86
18-12-2017, 11:16 AM
This is how i was thinking until Dean mentioned that its all good in a cad program but in real world it does not work that way. i was making my machine as tight and solid as possible in solidworks and had in mind that i will order these parts the same dimensions as solidworks and all will be ok, kjn have a tolerance of +/- 0.5mm now my gantry will have 2x 80x160mm in a l shape but how much of a problem will i have if one of those extrusions was - 0.5mm and the other was + 0.5mm.

edit.. more then likely i am way overthinking lol but thats my mind being ocd and following how lovely and neat my cad drawing is :)

cropwell
18-12-2017, 12:21 PM
Don't want to be insulting to anyone regarding price but personally i think this is disgusting but then i am no expert on whats worth what when it comes to stuff like this. i have been quoted just under £2k just for 4 pieces and 2 of those pieces are only small plates for the rails

23427

I feel I have said this before, but Reefy, there may be two factors at work here :-
1. The company has enough on their order books to put them in a position where they can issue F**k Off quotes to one off machining.
2. They are cynically set up to cream off the desparate.

The price per unit if you were ordering 1000 off each would be a lot lot lower.

I would advise you to keep looking:nightmare:

Edit: Having looked at their website, I go for option 2.

reefy86
18-12-2017, 12:34 PM
True but me personally would not be issuing F**k Off quotes when that person would potentially spread the work and bring me more custom regardless if i have mass companies ordering from me, I would just simply say to them i can but its months waiting list because obviously bigger orders are a priority in business :)

What F**ks me off the most though is they buy materials in bulk and have the machine to make these parts as if they are butter so more then likely it cost them hardly nothing for the material due to bulk buy and charge me almost £2k and thats not even half of the plates i need doing. on their behalf i bet its a good thing but for poor old me it bloody aint lol

m_c
18-12-2017, 01:13 PM
They won't save that much in material by buying bulk.

People think that just because it's a flat bit plate, that it's easy to machine, but it's rarely the case. Taking your end plates for example, how would you hold them down?
On a router table, you could just screw the plate to the bed, or rely on a vacuum table, but I'd doubt they'd be using a router to machine them.
On a mill, you could clamp to the bed, but then you have to work around the clamps. You could use some form of low profile vice fixture, but you're still looking at two setups. Other option is to make a fixture plate, but that's additional cost and machine time.
Even your small plates, if you've specified tight tolerances around the full perimeter, instead of just using a bit suitably wide bar in a vice, milling both ends flat, maybe surfacing the top face, and drilling/tapping the holes, you now need to have two setups so all edges can be machined. Every time you have to do a setup, is time that has to be paid for by someone.

Plus you've specified a blasted finish, so that's more cost.

The quotes do seem high, but when you actually breakdown the time involved, they're probably not that high for a professional machine shop doing a one off job.

mekanik
18-12-2017, 01:14 PM
Could be wrong but i think you will find the +/- .5mm will be on cut length,so all you have to do is group your sections together with all of one end flush lightly clamp them together, call the longest your master rail and measure the difference of the others (shims/vernier) if you recess your end plates these can be done to the same depth and on assembly put appropriate packing into the end plate(simples)

Desertboy
18-12-2017, 02:13 PM
This is how i was thinking until Dean mentioned that its all good in a cad program but in real world it does not work that way. i was making my machine as tight and solid as possible in solidworks and had in mind that i will order these parts the same dimensions as solidworks and all will be ok, kjn have a tolerance of +/- 0.5mm now my gantry will have 2x 80x160mm in a l shape but how much of a problem will i have if one of those extrusions was - 0.5mm and the other was + 0.5mm.

edit.. more then likely i am way overthinking lol but thats my mind being ocd and following how lovely and neat my cad drawing is :)

This is very important! If using KJN aluminium to cut your extrusions you must have the pieces cut on the same day at the same time. They can offer a very high degree of repeatability but not if they have to reset the machine.

How accurate are KJN cuts I just had cut my MDF bed cut to 135.1cm *100cm based on my cad models and it dropped into place perfectly so I'd say at least for me there cuts were very accurate. I also had them cnc drill holes in my frame so I could assemble it with m12's instead of corners.

spluppit
18-12-2017, 03:12 PM
I did say to myself i would stay away from this thread.

That said, I do not like to see people getting quotes like you have for your plates. I have not read all the new posts ive only glanced over them. Plus i have no looked at those quotes in detail but its not right. I know roughly what you require as i have made parts for several forum members router builds in the past.

As mentioned they simply do not want to do the job or your drawings are asking for a lot and thats reflected in the price. Small jobs like this are agro for most company's and they charge you for that agro. Your drawing and the details on them will have a large bearing influencing the price. Some of the comments people have raised, i have said and others have said before and they are totally valid. I think its something most new people do not appreciate and it only sinks in with experience.

As the guys have said, you can do your plates long hand and of course has worked for many on here, in the same breath many choose to get them done outside.

I do this kind of works for people at a fair rate because i know the problem you can encounter with pricing. I like to see people doing these projects because it keeps Engineering alive and the knowledge base alive, if you guys cant do these projects, it dies.

If you want me to look at your plates please send me the drawings in either basic 2d dxf or dwg of if 3d in stp/step format. Be prepared to have your drawings scrutinised and alterations asked to be made. But please remember Anything i have said in this thread to you is for your benefit, even though you may see it as criticism, thats probably true for many other that have made comments also. Just to be clear I do not need the work, I have more work than i know what to do with at the moment, so work like this is done when my normal workload is reduced, so you have to wait until i have the time, but this means you get a professional job by someone who has been in the engineering sector (hand on) for over 35 years.

The offer is there. I'm not an ogre and i do not bite, but realise Engineering is a very straight talking trade. It has to be or we would never get anything done.

reefy86
18-12-2017, 03:51 PM
I did say to myself i would stay away from this thread.

That said, I do not like to see people getting quotes like you have for your plates. I have not read all the new posts ive only glanced over them. Plus i have no looked at those quotes in detail but its not right. I know roughly what you require as i have made parts for several forum members router builds in the past.

As mentioned they simply do not want to do the job or your drawings are asking for a lot and thats reflected in the price. Small jobs like this are agro for most company's and they charge you for that agro. Your drawing and the details on them will have a large bearing influencing the price. Some of the comments people have raised, i have said and others have said before and they are totally valid. I think its something most new people do not appreciate and it only sinks in with experience.

As the guys have said, you can do your plates long hand and of course has worked for many on here, in the same breath many choose to get them done outside.

I do this kind of works for people at a fair rate because i know the problem you can encounter with pricing. I like to see people doing these projects because it keeps Engineering alive and the knowledge base alive, if you guys cant do these projects, it dies.

If you want me to look at your plates please send me the drawings in either basic 2d dxf or dwg of if 3d in stp/step format. Be prepared to have your drawings scrutinised and alterations asked to be made. But please remember Anything i have said in this thread to you is for your benefit, even though you may see it as criticism, thats probably true for many other that have made comments also. Just to be clear I do not need the work, I have more work than i know what to do with at the moment, so work like this is done when my normal workload is reduced, so you have to wait until i have the time, but this means you get a professional job by someone who has been in the engineering sector (hand on) for over 35 years.

The offer is there. I'm not an ogre and i do not bite, but realise Engineering is a very straight talking trade. It has to be or we would never get anything done.

Thats kind of you mate and you were never in the wrong in the first place or did i ever discourage any of your advice i was just simply trying to avoid welding and go with aluminium but that soon changed lol. I have a few alterations of my own yet so ill sort those out and send you the files if thats ok with you.

reefy86
19-12-2017, 07:15 PM
Been thinking about how i am going to square the gantry up and thought of an idea using the method used below (watch from 2:20)

i know that method won't work on mild steel box section but what if i used epoxy resin on the side and wait for that to fully cure which will then give the side of the steel box section a really flat surface and then do the method in the video? i would need to do this before welding the top rail beam to the frame off course.

what do you think is it over the top?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOVHtjXi07Q

Clive S
19-12-2017, 10:20 PM
Been thinking about how i am going to square the gantry up and thought of an idea using the method used below (watch from 2:20)


The way I see it is that all he is doing is aligning the rail to the same as the ali profile so if the ali is bent so is his rail:confusion:

EddyCurrent
19-12-2017, 10:35 PM
It sounds like you need to invest in some tools such as a straight edge, engineers square.
I attached one of the long X rails using a straight edge to get it straight, then it was easy to space the second rail from it. Once you have the bearings fitted and a gantry cross beam attached you can feel if the bearings are tight at any point in the travel and make adjustments to the second rail.
Here's how I squared the rest up; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6565-Ready-Steady-Eddy?p=55217#post55217

JoeHarris
19-12-2017, 10:38 PM
That is pretty much how I did my y axis with the rails onto extrusion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mekanik
20-12-2017, 08:59 AM
I am getting the impression that you haven't done your basic research (ie wadding through the vast amount of information in the build logs) the epoxy leveling procedure and rail installation has all been well covered, and Boyan went into this when he started his build. you can't build an accurate machine without certain items(ie precision straight edge and square) no offense is intended by my comments.As Clive has said if you proceed as outlined in the video you will just duplicate any errors in the ally rail.
Regards
Mike

Neale
20-12-2017, 09:31 AM
By the same token, the guy bolts his rails straight to the top of the extrusion. No particular reason to believe that this is any straighter than the side of the extrusion - the surface will be influenced by errors in the supporting components, etc. However, errors in work on the machine will be in depth rather than profile accuracy, so perhaps up-and-down errors are less important for a lot of work.

For a router intended for mostly work in wood or plastics, though, will the errors be significant? If you are going to be making sign boards, doing lettering, cutting out stand-alone shapes which do not have tight manufacturing tolerances, is it worth chasing the last micron? I'm not saying you should ignore any errors, but you need a sense of proportion here. If your ballscrew/ballnut/bearing assemblies give, say, 0.05mm backlash, how much better than that do you need to be in the supporting structure?

Steel is different - my own 1.8m support rails dipped by 1.5-2mm in the centre, which is why I used epoxy - but in practice, how accurate are these aluminum extrusions?

Clive S
20-12-2017, 10:45 AM
Steel is different - my own 1.8m support rails dipped by 1.5-2mm in the centre, which is why I used epoxy - but in practice, how accurate are these aluminum extrusions?I have built several router type machines with the heavy duty profile 90x45 with the L type gantry layout with the rails top and bottom with no issues. So in my conclusion they are fine for the majority of diy builds and work very well.

reefy86
20-12-2017, 11:08 AM
Was just a thought after watching that video, i know i will be needing straight edges and engineer squares but most of these videos on youtube are just some guy pointing his camera at an engineer square and going up and down which lasts 20 seconds long lol. i am still reading on here and watching other people tips and tricks but all i can picture in my head is getting one rail on and have it as straight as possible on one side and bolt it down and then use the gantry to slide up and down to get the second rail inline and then bolt that down and then just use engineer squares against the aluminium beam and side plates to make sure thats square

reefy86
20-12-2017, 11:42 AM
It sounds like you need to invest in some tools such as a straight edge, engineers square.
I attached one of the long X rails using a straight edge to get it straight, then it was easy to space the second rail from it. Once you have the bearings fitted and a gantry cross beam attached you can feel if the bearings are tight at any point in the travel and make adjustments to the second rail.
Here's how I squared the rest up; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6565-Ready-Steady-Eddy?p=55217#post55217

read through your thread mate and i have a better picture in mind now so thank you, after reading about your problems with the bk12 bearings is this something i am going to run into when buying from zappautomation? mine will be the bk15 and bk17 not the bk12.

Neale
20-12-2017, 12:44 PM
Was just a thought after watching that video, i know i will be needing straight edges and engineer squares but most of these videos on youtube are just some guy pointing his camera at an engineer square and going up and down which lasts 20 seconds long lol. i am still reading on here and watching other people tips and tricks but all i can picture in my head is getting one rail on and have it as straight as possible on one side and bolt it down and then use the gantry to slide up and down to get the second rail inline and then bolt that down and then just use engineer squares against the aluminium beam and side plates to make sure thats square

You are going to need to be able to square the gantry once the machine is up and running, by adjusting home positions for each end of the gantry. Whether you do that via software or manually (home one end as part of the usual homing sequence and then adjust the second end manually) doesn't really matter but you do need to be able to do this. Probably the easiest and most accurate way to check that the gantry is square is to use the machine to make four holes in a square pattern in a piece of suitable material (I use MDF and make the holes a firm fit for the shanks of a set of identical drills). Measure the diagonals and adjust the home positions for the gantry until those measurements are as close to each other as you can make them. Any machine which uses two motors/ballscrews on a single axis will need to be able to do this.

reefy86
23-12-2017, 06:12 PM
Hope you all have a good Christmas guy's

reefy86
28-12-2017, 07:37 PM
is it possible to combine a 4th axis capable of cutting up to 200x200mm to my design? i am struggling to figure out how i would without having to adjust the z height, my plan was to adjust the width of the machine to allow me do add a t track to the side of the machine which does not affect the spoil board so i can adjust the 4th axis length so maximum cutting for the 4th axis would be 2400mmx200mmx200mm. So far my z height already has a cutting height of 200mm so if i was to somehow add the 4th axis i feel as if i would now need to adjust my z height to around 300mm and i have no idea how weak it would make my z axis doing this.

23493

Desertboy
29-12-2017, 08:07 AM
http://www.chinasavvy.com/tolerances-in-aluminum-extrusion#flatnessroughness

EddyCurrent
29-12-2017, 09:00 AM
What about this idea; https://www.cnccookbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/CNCRouterLatheAttach.jpg
or put it at the end in a smiliar manner.

reefy86
29-12-2017, 07:33 PM
Thanks eddy :)

Boyan Silyavski
30-12-2017, 12:22 PM
Just responded you to the PM, but now i see here where you are going with that. There is absolutely NO NEED for the spindle to extend below the table bed in order to achieve good 4rth axis

Meaning that the centerline of the round object could be level on with your bed. And the Z gantry clearance will be your object max radius. Add 10cm for the bit and chuck. There should be your spindle in upmost position. i recommend boxing the spindle like on mine machine and making tha gantry a bit wider in vertical. So more or less a normal machine without too much mods except for strong Z. thats it

cropwell
30-12-2017, 01:46 PM
I recall a build by KingCreaky that had a removeable bed that allowed a 4th axis to bolt in (can't find the thread though).

reefy86
30-12-2017, 11:26 PM
been over thinking again lol but that's the fun of reading tons of posts on this forum and coming up with new idea's (stolen idea's). just out of interest whats the price difference between good stepper motors and servo motors now? because of my high z axis i need to make the gantry very beefy but after reading some more for 3d work the z front plate needs to be light so i will update soon on an updated version and see what you think.

Boyan Silyavski
31-12-2017, 12:20 AM
What i think for sure is this:
Do not buy anything more until you have definitely finished your drawing and have it all clear 100%. That includes rails, screws, motors, board, etc. It will be just throwing money in the bin. And yes, we have done it all.

One more thing to note: Everyone here thinks he is a top machine designer. Nothing wrong with that. And in reality here we could see most of the best build ever worldwide. But what i learned from experience is that even if you overthink your machine, you always mess something, even small. Once you make the machine though, use the machine 1 year 8h per day, maybe make another one later, revise a couple of times the design customising it for clients, then this machine becomes better and better.
What i am saying is: assume you will make errors, if someone has made a nice working machine and you like the design, ask, listen and copy shamesly. Do not over think and over invent. look for good working designs, easy to make at home.

reefy86
31-12-2017, 12:33 AM
Thanks boyan, i have not ordered anything apart from the steel for the frame and while spending the whole of january welding it together i will wait until that is completed before confirming other parts to order. i have seen loads of build logs on here from people who have rushed in and bought the parts before asking and i will not be making that mistake. i am not expecting this machine to turn out how it looks in cad software or in my head but what i am expecting is knowledge from trial and error. that is the way i always like to learn because if you can fix an error then thats a new skill you get to keep :)

Desertboy
31-12-2017, 09:12 AM
Morning, unsure what you decided for drivers but if going the Leadshine AM882 route I'd order them now took about a month for mine to arrive from Hong Kong.

You can buy EU equivalent Leadshine EM806's but they're twice the price and the specifications seem identical both made by leadshine. AM882's you will not find available from UK seller if you do link me to him please lol so i can buy another 4. The only difference I can see between the EM806 and AM882 is they have different dip switch settings relating to auto motor setup but both support autotuning making this an non issue.

Don't buy 2nd hand like I did didn't save enough money to pay for the non working one I got I ended up buying a new one for £60 delivered, quick tip reduce the chances of important tax by making 4 separate orders to 2 different address's.

Personally I'd order the Hiwin's and ballscrew in at same time and from personal experience this time I would make the Hiwin's 20cm longer than the ballscrews. I'd want the Hiwin's and ballscrews before I started to make the frame after all the frame has to fit the Hiwin's and ballscrews not the other way round. You can't practically cut ballscrews down I rang a company in Leicester that specialise in ballscrew repairs to see how much to end machine a ballscrew was. It was about twice the price of buying the ballscrew from China with BK/BF fittings for the machining only.

If I had to order the Hiwin rail in UK I would use cncforyou which sells original carriages but a clone rail but I would just order from China/HK as my experiences so far have been mostly positive.

m_c
31-12-2017, 11:20 AM
Morning, unsure what you decided for drivers but if going the Leadshine AM882 route I'd order them now took about a month for mine to arrive from Hong Kong.

You can buy EU equivalent Leadshine EM806's but they're twice the price and the specifications seem identical both made by leadshine. AM882's you will not find available from UK seller if you do link me to him please lol so i can buy another 4. The only difference I can see between the EM806 and AM882 is they have different dip switch settings relating to auto motor setup but both support autotuning making this an non issue.

I would only ever buy Leadshine drives from a reputable source, as there are a lot of counterfeit drives about.

Personally, I've often wondered why the AM series got discontinued so quickly, but I suspect it was to do with forgeries. IIRC Leadshine superseded to the EM series in well under 2 years, but by that point you could pick up the AM drives cheap in lots of places. So either there was some major internal redesign, or they needed to get a step ahead of forgeries. I suspect the latter, and the AM firmware was easy to retrieve (the Chinese are renowned for their ability to extract such things, using methods you wouldn't think were possible), and the EM not so, which is why it's not yet been copied.
Most older digital drives are copies of Leadshine, which in turn were re-designed copies of Geckos, so you can't say Leadshine are just a victim in the whole counterfeit drive area, but they at least build reliable drives, and didn't deny for years they had an inherent design flaw which meant they could randomly blow up during power up (it's a shame JohnS isn't around anymore, as it's what ultimately forced him to use Chinese drives, and he liked a good rant on the subject).

Neale
31-12-2017, 11:58 AM
I don't know if anyone has done a controlled side-by-side comparison of the AM882 and the EM806. I bought the EM drives for my machine as I was fed up with buying things that seemed to go obsolete almost as soon as they were delivered and the EM series was still fairly new on the street, with supposedly better anti-resonance algorithms, etc. That was around 3 years ago but the AM drives are still going strong! However, I can say that I am very happy with my EM drives - no resonances ever been apparent, and the anti-stall is very useful if for some reason the gantry has gone out of square and loads get too high on rapid feed. Machine stops quickly without tearing itself apart. Would the AM drives have worked as well? Dunno!

One day I'll make up a serial cable and try to set up the autotune properly. Still slightly confused about how that's supposed to work with a dual-motor setup as you clearly can't do it with the motors connected to the ballscrews, but it doesn't seem to make sense to try to tune the motors when they're unloaded.

Edward
31-12-2017, 12:25 PM
I have an Am and two EM's on my milling machine and I can't see much of a difference to be honest.

However, for my new router I am using four EM's. As you say, Neale, the stall function really works, I had my milling machine travel out of bounds without a limit switch and as soon as it hit the end, the driver stopped it preventing any damage. Also good for when you make a mistake and go too severe with your cut, it soon stalls the movement and prevents further damage.

My thought is, if you can afford it, buy EM's from Zapp, they are actually quite reasonably priced and it's just a one off expense anyway and it supports a UK firm. If you really are on a very tight budget, buy AM's from China, but expect customs duty, some wait and at the end of the day, you are not saving much more than a round of beers, if that.

Desertboy
31-12-2017, 12:39 PM
I don't know if anyone has done a controlled side-by-side comparison of the AM882 and the EM806. I bought the EM drives for my machine as I was fed up with buying things that seemed to go obsolete almost as soon as they were delivered and the EM series was still fairly new on the street, with supposedly better anti-resonance algorithms, etc. That was around 3 years ago but the AM drives are still going strong! However, I can say that I am very happy with my EM drives - no resonances ever been apparent, and the anti-stall is very useful if for some reason the gantry has gone out of square and loads get too high on rapid feed. Machine stops quickly without tearing itself apart. Would the AM drives have worked as well? Dunno!

One day I'll make up a serial cable and try to set up the autotune properly. Still slightly confused about how that's supposed to work with a dual-motor setup as you clearly can't do it with the motors connected to the ballscrews, but it doesn't seem to make sense to try to tune the motors when they're unloaded.

That's what we need is a side by side comparison, when I build my next router I might go with EM806's (Although planning the easy servo drives with matching motors) just to compare with same toroidal PSU setup. They are plug compatible so could relatively easy swap them over just for testing.

They don't sell EM806's on alixpress and the suppliers I contacted said they don't sell them in Asia they are only sold in US and Europe but I always take what suppliers say with a pinch of salt lol.

On the clone issue I think it's how good a clone is it? If the clone performs and works exactly the same then the issue is slight, if it's a poor clone then problems occur.

I have no idea if my AM's are clones but the internals look identical when I stripped them down and they all seem to perform the same. Almost silent performance if I set the microsteps to 32.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4_u5ov-9cc

I'm going to set them to 8 for now which makes them sound like normal whiney steppers but more torque of course.

Desertboy
31-12-2017, 12:58 PM
Customs duty is fickle but split your purchases and send to friends to eliminate them for stuff like this. I paid £15 on my first 2 and nothing on the next 3 and the one that was faulty I probably blew up as I also blew up a toroidal transformer so that's down to me being crap lol.

I can understand what your saying but you can buy 4 New AM882's for £240 delivered vs £440 for the EM806's that's quite a few rounds of beers in Leicester lol. If I was on a budget it's here I'd save my £200 to spend elsewhere say on PSU or upgrade the ballscrews/Hiwin sizes.

The limit is £40 from China I've found split the deliveries and anything under £100 you don't get charged. I spent less than £70 on tax on my router build and over £1200 from China and most my tax was the ballscrews.

I think the £200 buys you a replacement EM806 if one goes wrong which is a good warranty for me ;)

I too have crashed 2 out of 3 axis on my router and stall protection kicked straight in ;) so if I have clones I have working clones.

There is after all 2 ways to clone this drive
1. Make an exact clone with same chips or equiv and use the same firmware, done right the difference between the original and clone is minimal and sometimes clones are actually better.
2. Put a cheap driver in a copy AM882 box and the stall protection ports are not connected to anything lol. Hack the firmware so the dip switches make sense.

Boyan Silyavski
31-12-2017, 01:40 PM
This machine is crying out loud for servos. That's my opinion.

Desertboy
31-12-2017, 01:45 PM
This machine is crying out loud for servos. That's my opinion.

What's your opinion on
http://www.leadshineusa.com/producttypes.aspx?type=products&category=easy-servo-products&producttype=easy-servo-motors

If I understand it these are not real servos but somewhere in between

Boyan Silyavski
31-12-2017, 02:04 PM
What's your opinion on
http://www.leadshineusa.com/producttypes.aspx?type=products&category=easy-servo-products&producttype=easy-servo-motors

If I understand it these are not real servos but somewhere in between

I decided long ago - No to closed loop steppers. Too close to real servos price. 750w servos from BST will much better. Mine machine is all over 400W Samsung servos and i could not be more than happy with them. I doubt this machine will be heavier or much different than mine anyway. If i have to repeat, i will go the same way, like new used second hand brand servos from reputable seller, together with cables and so. If i am making the machine for a client, then new 750w chinese servos. But that's me.

PS. Just as a side note, brand servos like mine and the panasonic will spin to 6k rpm happily, as opposed to cheap servos. So actually you will never use them at 100%.

reefy86
31-12-2017, 04:35 PM
Cant decide what i will need until i finish my gantry design and report back as the way i am going like boyan said is i may need servos which i was trying to avoid, what price range am i looking at per axis setup for servos? the hiwin rails and ball screws are whats taking up a lot but i am in no rush

edit.. just going to point out just in case someone can rescue me from over designing which eventually is going to push me to servos lol, the only thing i will be cutting is wood or up to 10mm acrylic and thats it but it does need to be a solid gantry for 3d carving. i will however want to make a small machine to mill aluminium and steel eventually :)

reefy86
31-12-2017, 05:21 PM
can you mix steppers and servos? was thinking off having just servos on the long axis that moves the gantry

Desertboy
31-12-2017, 05:40 PM
can you mix steppers and servos? was thinking off having just servos on the long axis that moves the gantry

In linuxcnc seems easy enough

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configuration/26646-mixed-servo-and-stepper-system

Not sure about Mach 3 but if I'm going servo go all the way all 3 axis ;)

If you're using standard ballscrew at the lengths you want you'll probably see screw whip with normal steppers never mind servos so you might need rotating ballnuts or R&P to see proper performance from servos.

Google screw whip calculator to get a good idea of what a normal ballscrew can do but it's nowhere near 6k rpm Boyan quoted that servos will do.

reefy86
31-12-2017, 06:10 PM
already have rotating nuts in mind, from the looks of it my gantry is weighing between 150-200kg so is this a deffo servo route then?

Desertboy
31-12-2017, 06:17 PM
already have rotating nuts in mind, from the looks of it my gantry is weighing between 150-200kg so is this a deffo servo route then?

200kg's! this seems excessive for a wood router a hell of a lot of weight to be moving at speed it's like 1/5 a car you'll need chuky motors.

Have you considered buying a 2nd hand router
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Router-3kw-2500-x-1300-x-200-Work-Area-Complete-Vacuum-Bed-Complete/152836059704?hash=item2395bd3238:g:-LIAAOSw1cNaOuvj

haggle with them you might get it for £4.5k ;) I find if you visit people and wave cash at them you can get some leeway ;)

Boyan Silyavski
31-12-2017, 06:42 PM
If you are tight on money for the build, you could buy cheaper square rails than Hiwin. Find a good factory and buy from them. it will be wise to make a plan and follow it. My machine cost me somewhere around 6-7k totally. 8x4 machine can not be made properly for 5k. you have 3k for rails, ballscrews and so, 2k for electronics and motors, 1k for metal for frame and so on. Though i lied to myself some time that i can make it for 5k.

And i had all necessary machinery and skills to design it and make it 100% by myself. And not first build, mind that.


So make a plan, follow it, be persistent, do not make any mistakes and you will do it.

reefy86
31-12-2017, 06:50 PM
this might be a stupid option for some people but i would prefer to build it rather then buy one just purely for the knowledge i will learn on the way and if something ever packs up in the future then i will know how to fix it. 200kg is alot of weight just for cutting wood but there will be a lot of rapid movements for 3d so i need the gantry to be solid. i was thinking about fixing the gantry and moving the bed but i have future plans so i will need the space for other things.

Boyan Silyavski
31-12-2017, 07:05 PM
It will be impossible to move such big bed, The gantry is the way. I am sure you will manage to weld it. I learned to weld on my first machine and stick welded it. Did not have a Mig at that time. It even turned good. Think what i am telling you about the Chinese square rails, they will save you some money. In fact last time i bough they were Hiwin quality like, almost :-). But were proper steel.

reefy86
31-12-2017, 07:18 PM
will look into those boyan but it aint one of those things is it where its 50/50 if you get shit rails or hiwin like? only reason why i am going hiwin is because there is 100% guarantee i will be getting quality.

Desertboy
31-12-2017, 07:37 PM
I only have 15mm Hiwin's but I have originals on the Y axis and clones on the X I can't see a difference but let's see in a year lol.

Would I buy clone again without blinking but get the right clones so the rail is compatible (Like mine) then you can swap original Hiwin's carriages onto the rail if you're carriages ever failed.

I was thinking of buying 2nd hand next time
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THK-NSK-IKO-Used-Linear-Guide-Rail-Bearing-CNC-Router-Various-Length-HSR-SR-SHS/112277000164?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

carriages can be repacked with new bearings if needed which is essentially a recondition as long as the rail is not nicked. I have seen lots of 2nd hand rail never seen it physically damaged, rusty yes but not chipped. The carriages are what seize on old machines left outside. The rails do go rusty but much slower than normal untreated steel possibly due to years of greasing in their pasts.

reefy86
02-01-2018, 11:36 AM
whats the longest bit you guys have used without any deflection or breakage? beginning to think having a long z height is limited by the tool bit for 3d work. i can see that on some areas where i need to penetrate 300mm then either the router is going to collide or the bottom of the front plate will.

Clive S
02-01-2018, 12:45 PM
whats the longest bit you guys have used without any deflection or breakage? beginning to think having a long z height is limited by the tool bit for 3d work. i can see that on some areas where i need to penetrate 300mm then either the router is going to collide or the bottom of the front plate will.

It all depends on what you are cutting, There is somebody on here making surfboards with long cutters out of a type of foam.

Nr1madman
02-01-2018, 04:22 PM
Also think about if you are gonna use drills as they can be longer than routerbits.
I got the tip to calculate z travel/clearance based on thickest material and longest drill I plan on using :)

Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk

reefy86
02-01-2018, 06:28 PM
most of the 3d work will be on mdf

Neale
03-01-2018, 12:23 PM
Any chance you can use layering in your CAM setup to cut the piece in layers with registration pins for cutting and reassembly? I know it depends on what you are making, but just in case this is for something like MDF moulds, it might do the job.

reefy86
03-01-2018, 12:52 PM
It was a thought but joining those pieces together and making it look seamless on some pieces maybe tricky.

reefy86
04-01-2018, 09:36 PM
how much room play do you leave when drilling and tapping? for example i am using 20mm linear rails on the z axis and the screw clearance is 6mm so i would need to use smaller bolts then 6mm to make room for alignment.

Nr1madman
04-01-2018, 09:51 PM
how much room play do you leave when drilling and tapping? for example i am using 20mm linear rails on the z axis and the screw clearance is 6mm so i would need to use smaller bolts then 6mm to make room for alignment.I made a huge error when drilling/tapping my first plate. Went with m6 as the holes were 6mm and chinese drawing said m6 holes.
Turns out that m6 boltheads couldnt fit the countersink in the rails :D
So use m5 bolts, 4.2mm drill..
That gives you 1mm adjustment.
Done correctly thats plenty ;)

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reefy86
04-01-2018, 09:58 PM
Thanks i had m5 in mind but wanted to double check :)

Neale
04-01-2018, 10:21 PM
I used M5 as well - works fine and although you don't have a lot of adjustment range, there should be enough if you are careful. I made up a steel drill guide (a short length of steel bar with a 4.3mm hole through the middle) that had a reduced diameter one end that fitted the counterbores in the rail so it centred the drill accurately. You can then use a similar guide with a 5.1mm hole to guide the tap so that it goes in square.

driftspin
04-01-2018, 11:17 PM
M5 too here.

The first of a set of 20mm hiwin X axis rails takes a lot of time to line up to what ever straight reference.
I checked 100 times before drilling the first holes.


After squaring up the gantry to the first rail, the second rail (X) wend a lot faster using the gantry as a guide for the second rail relative distance.



I clamped down using 3 clamps before pre drilling 3 holes over 1830 mm span, ends and middle, with a 5.9mm drill, to remove epoxy and centre drilling a centre hole for 4.2 mm drill.


I have a well balanced, old :-) battery drill.
Its easy to keep vertical 90 degrees to the surface and used no other tools.

I used the 6mm hole from the rail for a guide icm with the 5.9 epoxy removal / pre centre drill and drilled 4.2 and tapped all m5 free hand with the battery drill.


Bought 2 machine taps m5 and 5 4.2 drills from toolstation (volkel) did about 100 holes in 4mm steel with 1 drill 4.2mm (ground hss) and 1 tap and still going strong.


Just use oil on drill and tap, and vacuum clean all holes before tapping.


I have had no problems with off centre holes or problems tapping the treads.


After tapping there is some wiggle room but not a lot about 0.5mm ...


After torqueing down the m5 i have had no binding trouble in the carriages.


Hope this helps.

Grtz Bert




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reefy86
05-01-2018, 07:44 PM
Thanks guys, just would like to ask a question that i can't seem to find the answer to on the forum But has anyone ran a machine for multiple years using epoxy resin without it weakening over time? also what methods do you do to get top and bottom rails lined up to exact same position?

23546

Got my keys today for my workshop so will be cracking on soon :)

driftspin
06-01-2018, 12:39 AM
Thanks guys, just would like to ask a question that i can't seem to find the answer to on the forum But has anyone ran a machine for multiple years using epoxy resin without it weakening over time? also what methods do you do to get top and bottom rails lined up to exact same position?

23546

Got my keys today for my workshop so will be cracking on soon :)Hi reefy86,

I would like an answer to the epoxy question to :-)


For Y rail alignment?

I used 2 extruded profiles across the x rails in front of an behind the gantry.

And 2 across on top of them, parallel to the x rails under the gantry.

Now you have 2 flat references to put 2 machinist squares on. in a horizontal/ upright position on both sides of the gantry.
In the same X rail level plain.

The bottom of my gantry is half raised 12+ cm over the X rails.

I moved the rail so the carriages are just over the edge of the beam so it is close as possible to the Z axis side so the machinist square just touches them and not the gantry box section.
The rail is on the edge of useable flat of the epoxy.

Hope this helps.



Some left over extrusion 8040 goes a long way for alignment purposes.

I did check them for resonable straightness before using them this way.

You need square and flat references all through the build, i did under estimate this.

If not for epoxy this would never have worked out for me.


Grtz Bert


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reefy86
06-01-2018, 07:48 AM
What do you think of my idea which probably some of you may think its a waste of money on the extra epoxy resin.

There will be 2 gantry sections so the z axis is boxed in the middle.

this is just a quick rough up, the red pieces are the epoxy resin fully cured

1. weld the steel box sections together

2. lay the sections down on a level surface and pour epoxy resin

3. after 10 days or however long it takes to cure flip the sections back to normal position.

4. attach gantry side plates and adjust and bolt to as square as you can get it.

5. again pour epoxy resin to level both sections on the same plane

6. attach the linear rail on the front of the sections and then use a magnetic gauge indicator and use the top to line up the rails.


https://youtu.be/um99ZZCk4LA

reefy86
07-01-2018, 05:50 PM
Would like some opinions on the above please :) in the meantime i am purchasing necessary tools to get the job started but would like your input if possible.

1. how accurate of 1800mm straight edges and if someone can recommend one if the cheap ones are no good.

2. is bigger the better for the engineer squares? seen some 300mm ones but are nearly £100 each

3. anything else you recommend i should buy to make things easier on the way?

I know you guys are probably sick of hearing from me now lol but things will actually be getting done once i have ordered the necessary tools.

Nr1madman
07-01-2018, 08:09 PM
Would like some opinions on the above please :) in the meantime i am purchasing necessary tools to get the job started but would like your input if possible.

1. how accurate of 1800mm straight edges and if someone can recommend one if the cheap ones are no good.

2. is bigger the better for the engineer squares? seen some 300mm ones but are nearly £100 each

3. anything else you recommend i should buy to make things easier on the way?

I know you guys are probably sick of hearing from me now lol but things will actually be getting done once i have ordered the necessary tools.I dont quite get it.. will one set of rails be on top and 2 sets in between? :D

For question 1 you should read boyans build threads. Somewhere in there he states DIN numbers for the necessary straight edge and where to find them. If Im not misstaken he also wrote about the squares..

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reefy86
07-01-2018, 08:14 PM
no just 2 sets in between and the epoxy on the top is just a reference for the gauge indicator, one some videos people sit a magnetic block onto to linear bearing blocks and the have the gauge indicator touch against the aluminium extrusion all the way down the rail until its square but aluminium extrusion is not perfectly straight but with the epoxy resin being very flat and straight then i thought doing it this way may work.

Nr1madman
07-01-2018, 08:24 PM
no just 2 sets in between and the epoxy on the top is just a reference for the gauge indicator, one some videos people sit a magnetic block onto to linear bearing blocks and the have the gauge indicator touch against the aluminium extrusion all the way down the rail until its square but aluminium extrusion is not perfectly straight but with the epoxy resin being very flat and straight then i thought doing it this way may work.Now I get it, smart! ;)

I have been using a dti alot lately.. was so hung up on aligning my rails (went fine) that I more or less forgot/neglected the ballscrews, bearings and ballnut..

If you get a dti make sure it has a good holder (if its called that) with a strong magnetic base.
Mine is utter crap and its frustrating when you hand turn the ballscrew with everything mouted from one end almost to the next and the dial tip just moves off the reference. Not worth the 5-20 you save on a cheap holder :)

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reefy86
07-01-2018, 08:31 PM
I have no idea what its called i just call it a gauge indicator lol.

mekanik
08-01-2018, 08:30 AM
DTI Dial Test Indicator

charlieuk
08-01-2018, 09:05 AM
It all depends on what you are cutting, There is somebody on here making surfboards with long cutters out of a type of foam.

that's me I use a 7" bit and have around 9" of z travel but you wont cut much more than foam with it

Nr1madman
08-01-2018, 05:21 PM
I have no idea what its called i just call it a gauge indicator lol.Haha I ment the base or mount or whatever you call it.. make sure you get a good one!

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reefy86
09-01-2018, 12:18 AM
Cheers mate, still need to brace the bed frame a little more at the bottom and brace the side gantry plates but would like some feedback if anyone thinks i will run into any problems. will be extending the bed by another meter at the bottom for a 4th axis, z height is 200mm but can also do up to 400mm by making the 4th axis centre in line with the bed so with the z axis boxed in do you think this is strong enough for what i wanted it for?

235672356823569

Clive S
09-01-2018, 10:18 AM
I have to say this, are you serious about building this cad model !! for a first build !!. because this style of gantry is going to be very difficult unless you have a lot of experience and good tooling to make it. I would take a step back and think what you are taking on.

Please don't be offended.

Nr1madman
09-01-2018, 10:25 AM
Im impressed, so I have to cheer you on :D

I know myself so I know I could never do this without access to a finished cnc router.

Take it slow, be super careful and think about where you need adjustment capability.

If you pull this off you can be mighty proud

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reefy86
09-01-2018, 11:03 AM
I have to say this, are you serious about building this cad model !! for a first build !!. because this style of gantry is going to be very difficult unless you have a lot of experience and good tooling to make it. I would take a step back and think what you are taking on.

Please don't be offended.

No worries Clive if i get offended by someone being honest that easy then there is no way i can succeed lol. it is a big job but this is not something i am expecting to put together easy so i am preparing my self as i go along, i Don't have the necessary equipment like alot of you guys do so this is where i am putting alot of money into having the aluminium plates machined for me from nice guys who have the equipment to do it which i have had a few nice people offer their services :). i have not seen anyone do this but i don't see why it wont work but using the epoxy resin method that i shown will help have the 4 rails all lined up as long as i make room for adjustments on the gantry side plates and bearing plates then it should help getting the gantry square easier. Also i know there is the sandwich problem when having the z axis like i have but the way i have done it is so the 2 front rails and the front z axis support plate doesn't have to be connected to the rest of the z axis yet as long as its still on the same level as the 2 back rails hence the epoxy idea. now as long as i make room for adjustments and as long as i am careful and everything is aligned and straight as i can get it i will be relying on the aluminium plate edges to be machined flat so i can use those edges to help square up the z rails. Pretty much its going to cost me a lot of money just for these extra ideas where as you guys would get it done next to nothing because you have the skills and the equipment to do it :)

reefy86
09-01-2018, 11:04 AM
Im impressed, so I have to cheer you on :D

I know myself so I know I could never do this without access to a finished cnc router.

Take it slow, be super careful and think about where you need adjustment capability.

If you pull this off you can be mighty proud

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Thanks mate appreciate it

Clive S
09-01-2018, 12:31 PM
Ok, well you are braver than me. Have a read through this thread I think it is the only one with a Z axis like you are proposing http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/9369-Here-we-go-again-MK4/page22

The tolerances have to be spot on when using Hi win rails as they will bind up.

Good luck with the build I am looking forward to it.:thumsup:

reefy86
09-01-2018, 12:47 PM
Ok, well you are braver than me. Have a read through this thread I think it is the only one with a Z axis like you are proposing http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/9369-Here-we-go-again-MK4/page22

The tolerances have to be spot on when using Hi win rails as they will bind up.

Good luck with the build I am looking forward to it.:thumsup:

thanks mate will keep everyone up to date, just need to finalise frame design so i can order the steel and crack on with it.

Nr1madman
11-01-2018, 02:32 PM
Hmm how about jonathans build with the red frame? Didnt that one have similar solutions?

:D

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Boyan Silyavski
14-01-2018, 01:58 PM
I think this could be a very serious challenge to put all together with the needed precision. This designs is not stronger than my design. Which is simpler. More rails and more head scratching.

reefy86
14-01-2018, 10:18 PM
I think this could be a very serious challenge to put all together with the needed precision. This designs is not stronger than my design. Which is simpler. More rails and more head scratching.

Hi Boyan, I was trying to keep the z axis very strong using the box design so would you say a single beam is more then capable? or is there something else that you think is over complicated.

cheers

Boyan Silyavski
15-01-2018, 05:30 AM
Hi Boyan, I was trying to keep the z axis very strong using the box design so would you say a single beam is more then capable? or is there something else that you think is over complicated.

cheers

I think you are from those type of people that will not listen to reason as you all ready have decided your way and you like challenges. This impression i have from the thread and our PM. So i don't want to discourage you, as if i say what i think and you listen to me, will have to start from scratch :hysterical:

Whatever way to do it will be possible if you are persistent and have enough time. So no worries, if this is what you feel is the way. For me this is a design for an experienced machinist who has a mill at home. What more to say.

reefy86
15-01-2018, 07:55 AM
Know worries Boyan mate i don't not listen otherwise i would of started this by now :) I have all the steel/welding equipment ect just waiting on getting some decent engineer squares and edges but i won't be starting the frame until i am happy hence why i keep playing around with the design. Not in a bad way but i was kind of trying to do some manual labour in cad software myself rather then just using someone else's and that is why i keep coming up with these designs not that i am saying its good and i am going to build it its more of a trial and error and if i get told its bang on then it makes me feel good because i made the cad drawing if you know what i mean.

Also not sure if you seen it in my post but when you say for experienced machinist with a mill well all my pieces that need milling will be done by someone who has the equipment this is why i need to make sure my drawing is spot on and not too complicated to put together.

Please don't think i am on here rushing because i give you my word i am not :chuncky:

Cheers