Invertor required

[sheffstaff]

Hi i was wondering if anyone has a working invertor that would power a Dual Speed motor on a manual Lathe.
The lathe is a Chinese lathe with the following details on the motor. as you can see it is at 2.4 Kw on high speed so i would think that is is a differt type of invertor as this motor is a Dual speed motor.

Series Multispeed Three Phase Asyncronous Motor fitted to a Manual Lathe

Type YD112M-8/4 –TH
INS.CL= B
Connection Δ/2Y
1.5 /2.4 Kw
4.6- 4.9 A Rating: S1
50 Hz
Rpm 700/1410
415 V
IP 44/46
Capacity 2KVA

if anyone has any Ideas i would appreciate this.

[Chaz]

Id just pick one off Ebay. Loads of Hyuanyang's available.

That said, not sure the complexities of a dual speed motor ...... perhaps someone smarter can comment :-)

[Neale]

Be careful - that's a 415V motor, not a 240V motor that the usual invertors will drive directly. You need a rather different invertor to run a 415V three-phase motor from a 240V single-phase supply as it needs the capability to increase voltage. Possibly something like this (http://www.ecogoo.com.cn/product/4kw-220v-single-phase-input-380v-3-phase-output-frequency-inverter).

[magicniner]

Some dual speed motors are just not suited to inverters, check if anyone else - Google search - has converted the make & model you have.
It may be cheaper and quicker to re-motor and vfd at the same time.

[scooterist007]

You say that the motor can be wired up in star and delta but you only list 415v, this will be a dual voltage motor, what is the voltage? If it isn't 220v three phase then you won't be able to use a vfd. Can you take a photo of the motor data plate?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[magicniner]

If it isn't 220v three phase then you won't be able to use a vfd.

Variable Frequency Drives are available in a wide variety of input/output voltage configurations so your statement is, strictly speaking, incorrect.
You can buy a VFD with 240v single phase input which generates 380/415 3 phase output, they are more expensive than the kind you are assuming were the only type available so if you'd said "then you won't be able to use a cheap vfd" then you'd have been on the money :D

- Nick

[scooterist007]

I have never seen a vfd that you connect up to a 240v single phase supply to 415v three phase, I am a industrial engineer and have never come across one, I am sometimes wrong though! The only thing I have come across to power up single phase to 415v three phase is a phase converter, there are two types, a static variety which is not a true three phase supply, or a rotary variety which uses motors to generate a three phase supply.
But a vfd? I don't think they exist.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[Clive S]

I have never seen a vfd that you connect up to a 240v single phase supply to 415v three phase, I am a industrial engineer and have never come across one, I am sometimes wrong though! The only thing I have come across to power up single phase to 415v three phase is a phase converter, there are two types, a static variety which is not a true three phase supply, or a rotary variety which uses motors to generate a three phase supply.
But a vfd? I don't think they exist.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-CNC-Motor-Speed-VFD-Single-To-3-Phase-220-380V/223278479464?hash=item33fc6f3868:m:mczR5L0OhWOYvD5 O-6L9Pqg&var=522061402594

[magicniner]

Another alternative, which is often used even on 7kw+ spindle motor applications, and is common in industry where 3 phase is not available or feasible is a transformer to achieve a higher input voltage and a VFD.

[m_c]

You say that the motor can be wired up in star and delta but you only list 415v, this will be a dual voltage motor

Dual speed motors were fairly common in old machinery, and were fixed voltage - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahlander_pole_changing_motor

With a VFD you would have to be careful you didn't change speed with the motor running, as it's likely to make even the best of VFDs fail (either fault out, or more likely just go pop!) with the current/phase synchronising involved when changing speeds.

[scooterist007]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-CNC-Motor-Speed-VFD-Single-To-3-Phase-220-380V/223278479464?hash=item33fc6f3868:m:mczR5L0OhWOYvD5 O-6L9Pqg&var=522061402594I think you will find that the 220v input is 220v three phase, not 220v single phase.


Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[cropwell]

I think you will find that the 220v input is 220v three phase, not 220v single phase.


Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

This one seems to be quite specific.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-2KW-3HP-220V-Single-To-380V-3-Phase-Variable-Frequency-Drive-Converter-12A/323432490948?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SI M%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3Dc63ce95 b610e4ab4925e10715d43e27d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5% 26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D223278479464%26itm%3D32343249094 8&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

[Clive S]

I think you will find that the 220v input is 220v three phase, not 220v single phase.


Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

The description seems to say

Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-CNC-Motor-Speed-VFD-Single-To-3-Phase-220-380V

[scooterist007]

I know the listing says single phase 220v to three phase 380v, but it is £80 and if that is true, it is not only a vfd, it's a generator as well, I looked at the data plate and although it is quite blurry, it doesn't say in the output section that it's 380v, it only says 3 phase and 2.2kw, it doesn't state what voltage.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[sheffstaff]

Hi all the Dual speed motor is as previously said a 2.4Kw motor so would require at least a 3HP invertor but this would only power light use. So i would require in my opinion a 5HP invertor and the invertor would have to be a dual stage invertor which as some of you have already said are not the normal invertors that would power a dual voltage motor.

Dual speed motors require different invertors this is why i have asked if anyone on here knows or has something to offer me.
This is the motors plate: Type YD112M-8/4 –TH


INS.CL= B
Connection Δ/2Y
1.5 / 2.4 Kw
4.6- 4.9 A Rating: S1
50 Hz
Rpm 700/1410
415 V
IP 44/46
Capacity 2KVA

A 240V to 415V Digital phase invertor is the way forward so i ask that if anyone has a second hand unit that is working i would appreciate the help.


25321

[Chaz]

I know the listing says single phase 220v to three phase 380v, but it is £80 and if that is true, it is not only a vfd, it's a generator as well, I looked at the data plate and although it is quite blurry, it doesn't say in the output section that it's 380v, it only says 3 phase and 2.2kw, it doesn't state what voltage.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

Very few actually make 380V. The HY ones DO NOT make 380V, they are listed as 220V and 380V input but do not upconvert. The Egogo (spelling) ones do but cost more. This seems to cheap for it to do the same ..... need true RMS meter and then see if it does, but dont be surprised if it does not.

[cropwell]

GH-1440A ? You could always ask Warco for their advice. Is the problem that you have moved the lathe out of the 3 phase environment ?

[sheffstaff]

Yes the Lathe has been moved from a 3 Phase environment I didn't know that the Lathe came from Warco ? I thought that they were from a place called Toolco.

[scooterist007]

Very few actually make 380V. The HY ones DO NOT make 380V, they are listed as 220V and 380V input but do not upconvert. The Egogo (spelling) ones do but cost more. This seems to cheap for it to do the same ..... need true RMS meter and then see if it does, but dont be surprised if it does not.Ok I did a search and the company your talking about is ecogoo, that's the only company that makes them, all the usual manufacturers ie Mitsubishi, Allen Bradley, Siemens etc do not make one, I don't see how they can make a true 220 single phase to 380 three phase, the only way I can see it happening is by converting it to DC and then chopping it to make the three phases and inverting it back to AC which would then be 220v three phase, then they would have to up the voltage to 380v, the only way to do that is generate the 220 supply, so that would mean using transformers, now some of the vfd's are saying they are for 20 odd kw, now to get that amount of power from a original 220v single phase supply they would have to use a big transformer! And the vfd's I see for sale are not that big, so I resort back to my original post that you can't get a 220v single phase to 380v three phase vfd that is a true accurate one

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[Voicecoil]

All these VFD's will be rectifying the AC input to DC, and then doing stuff with that to make the 3 phase O/P. For low power (and low cost) you can use a capacitor/diode voltage doubler on the input to generate ~650V DC, alternatively for larger power you can use a switchmode Power factor Corrector (PFC) stage to do the same and also keep you legal for harmonic currents. This will need just one (or a few) small decent inductors, if the switching frequency is high it's quite possible to get 3 KW through a couple of cores maybe 35 or 40mm across, larger powers pro-rata, so you don't need massive transformers.

[Neale]

I use an "inverter" that works on the voltage-doubler principle - it was a bit of a bodge by a now-out-of-business company who grafted a voltage-doubler to the front of what is quite a nice ABB 380V VFD but it does mean single-phase 240V in and 400V or so 3-phase output. It works fine until you put a heavy load on it when the effectively half-mains frequency input means that the DC voltage sags too much between cycles and the VFD trips. I've been kicking around the idea of finding a 3KW 240-415V transformer and go back to the original ABB VFD input arrangement - and a cheap transformer has not found its way to my workshop yet - or try one of those Ecogoo 240-380V boxes (I linked to this company in an earlier post on this thread). They seem to deliver a lot of performance for the price, if they work as well as they claim...

My lathe has a mechanical variable-speed mechanism so I have no experience with dual-speed motors and VFDs. In fact, I run the VFD at 50Hz output, with a switch that drops this to 25Hz for a quick low-speed option.

[m_c]

GH-1440A ? You could always ask Warco for their advice. Is the problem that you have moved the lathe out of the 3 phase environment ?
It's not specifically a Warco model. Like lots of Chinese built machines, it'll be produced by a factory who will stick whatever logo you want on it, and give you a few different specification variations. Plus as it uses a pretty conventional naming convention (Gear Head 14" swing 40" between centres), it may of even came out of different factories, with some copies better than others (aka Sieg/Syil).

A quick google for GH-1440A brings up Warco, ToolCo, ETS, and Acra currently supplying that model. I'm sure there will of been more suppliers over the years.

[Voicecoil]

I use an "inverter" that works on the voltage-doubler principle - it was a bit of a bodge by a now-out-of-business company who grafted a voltage-doubler to the front of what is quite a nice ABB 380V VFD but it does mean single-phase 240V in and 400V or so 3-phase output. It works fine until you put a heavy load on it when the effectively half-mains frequency input means that the DC voltage sags too much between cycles and the VFD trips.
Sounds like they missed a trick and only used a half wave voltage doubler and/or got the capacitor sizes too small. The full wave voltage doubler circuit works pretty well if you do the sums for the output power and choose the right size caps, but it does have twice the component count of the simple circuit.

[cropwell]

It's not specifically a Warco model. Like lots of Chinese built machines, it'll be produced by a factory who will stick whatever logo you want on it, and give you a few different specification variations. Plus as it uses a pretty conventional naming convention (Gear Head 14" swing 40" between centres), it may of even came out of different factories, with some copies better than others (aka Sieg/Syil).

A quick google for GH-1440A brings up Warco, ToolCo, ETS, and Acra currently supplying that model. I'm sure there will of been more suppliers over the years.

I mentioned Warco as it is green with ali info plates - as you say Chinese, probably from the weiss.com.cn stable. I can see why you are going for a VFD as £800 for a rotary converter - OUCH !

Cheers,
Rob

[m_c]

I mentioned Warco as it is green with ali info plates - as you say Chinese, probably from the weiss.com.cn stable. I can see why you are going for a VFD as £800 for a rotary converter - OUCH !

Cheers,
Rob

I'm pretty sure even Chester used to supply certain models in green, so I never mention makes unless it's clearly mentioned on the machine.

Rotary phase converters are pricey. The step-up transformer and motor are the big cost. The rest of the bits for a basic rotary aren't that expensive. A few big capacitors, and either a time delay relay (or voltage sensitive relay if you want to get fancy) plus some wire and terminals are pretty cheap.

I used to have a link to a website that provided kits, including the option for electronic capacitor switching, but I can't currently find it. I was always tempted to upgrade my rotary with it, to eliminate all the relay/contactor chattering mine does when I start the milling machine up.

[sheffstaff]

Hi again do you think that a Rotary phase converter would be better than a digital phase invertor the problem is that they are all so pricey to be able to run the dual speed motor.

[cropwell]

My guess is that the rotary converter would be more robust. The reason is that the two speed switching would mean, that to be safe with an electronic converter, would ALL have to be powered down before motor is reconfigured for the other speed, otherwise there could be a momentary open circuit or short to blow the output gates.

[sheffstaff]

Looked into the Rotary phase converter and this would be the best option for us because the set up will allow the use of dual speed motor and also the additional option to use other equipment at the same time if required. Just wondering if anyone has a Transwave rotary converter and if so is it for Sale? preferably a RT4 model.

[magicniner]

RT4 is currently £1086 + £50 shipping, I have the price list printed out on my desk as I'm ordering an RT7 shortly ;-)

[m_c]

Cheapest I found was https://www.scosarg.com/manufacturers/transwave-phase-converters

[vidya31]

You can see it online.