Huanyang VFD, how to get Waterpump switching on with UPF/DRV/DCM connectors?

[chefffe]

Hi, I built my first CNC Router (just a "lousy" MPCNC :)) and got a 0,8kw Chinaspindle and Huanyang VFD2,2kw.
I created a Waterpump solution using 12V supply.
I would like to only turn the pump on, when the spindle runs. Therefore I wanted to use the DRV/UPF/DCM connectors switching an external Relay on. I already programmed PD050 and PD051 to "1" but I cannot measure anything between these two ports (no matter if spindle is on or off).
Now I dont have any clue how I could use these 3 ports for this action?

The FA/FB/FC Terminals are already used to switch the CNC off by error.

[AndyUK]

As FA/FB/FC are com NC and NO, can't you use the other side to indicate if the pump should run?

I.e. use the NO for the pump and NC for the error circuit?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[chefffe]

The Relay with FA/FB/FC is already in use as an emergency off for the cnc control (motors eg.). Therefore I have to use somehow these Optocouplers.

As you have only one possibility to program FA FB FC, you cant use two functions with it. When I program it to switch only with an error, then the pump will run always except an error occurs. The plan was to switch the pump on, when the spindle starts.

[Doddy]

I think I'm missing the point here. Can you not simply 'or' the FOR/REV inputs to actuate a relay to switch the coolant pump?

[chefffe]

FOR/REV are inputs ... dont know what you mean.

[Doddy]

So, use the switched inputs to actuate a relay AS WELL as command the spindle to spin... So the coolant pump is driven by the demand, rather than the spindle status.

I appreciate that this isn't answering your question on the use of the DRV/UPF outputs

[chefffe]

If this is working I would be fine. Can you tell me how to do it? You mean to actuate an external relay, right? What needs to be connected then where?

Ok, I think I just understood now what you mean. You mean with an extra switch on FOR/REV you turn in parallel a Relay which switch the Pump on. This solution is also not possible, as I need to use the standard control box with display for commands.

Does nobody know how to use these Optocouplers DRV/UPF/DCM?

[Chaz]

I'm confused.

What stops you from just triggering the VFD from the Run signal, having controller use M codes to close relays and the speed reference local to the board (ie, full Hz). Is there a reason you cannot access the traditional FWD command on the VFD?

Also, what's up with the forum today, very slow, timing out.

[chefffe]

I am not sure if we are talking about different things.
I only operate the VFD with its own terminal. To be honest, I am a complete rookie with CNC and this is my first experience. I am pretty happy that everything works so far :), but having this feature would be the last step I wanted to go. If this is not working like I want regarding pump I can anytime let the pump switch on with the +24V Signal and DCM. The only drawback is then that the pump is running also when the spindle is not turning.
I believe you mean I could control it seperately from the VFD which is of course also somehow doable, but I am yet not that advanced so far. To me it would be sufficient just to operate this from the VFD.

[Chaz]

I am not sure if we are talking about different things.
I only operate the VFD with its own terminal. To be honest, I am a complete rookie with CNC and this is my first experience. I am pretty happy that everything works so far :), but having this feature would be the last step I wanted to go. If this is not working like I want regarding pump I can anytime let the pump switch on with the +24V Signal and DCM. The only drawback is then that the pump is running also when the spindle is not turning.
I believe you mean I could control it seperately from the VFD which is of course also somehow doable, but I am yet not that advanced so far. To me it would be sufficient just to operate this from the VFD.

Not difficult to do.

You could run a relay from your controller, activated on M8 (flood) or M7 (mist) G Code, that then enables the Coolant pump but then runs through another relay which is triggered by the Spindle Run command (For your spindle). I do the same for my CNC Lathe but dont care about spindle status.

Get yourself some 24V relays and drive the logic from your controller. What control option are you using?

[chefffe]

I use simple Arduino with Ramps controlled by Marlin 2.0. As I mentioned, this is only a MPCNC.
25763

[Chaz]

I use simple Arduino with Ramps controlled by Marlin 2.0. As I mentioned, this is only a MPCNC.
25763

Ok, so can you have an option where, in your code, you enable a G Code and then enable an output signal? I used Marlin and RAMPS for my 3D printers, so it should be possible.

The same way a heatbed is activated (Relays on the board) you can do here. Enable a relay, switch an external relay that has logic. Ill draw a circuit diagram if it helps ... ?

[chefffe]

Yes sure, this might be an option too. How to do it on a Ramps I am aware.
As I also dont see getting these UPF DCM DRV Ports running like I want, I will rethink this. Thank you for now.

[Chaz]

It should be as simple as this. Your spindle already has some logic to start stop. Tap into that, use a Normally Open switch (add a new relay if needed) to then feed a Normally Open switch triggered by Ramp's output for M8 G Code which then goes to your Coolant Pumps FWD connection. I've Grounded the common side but you need to work out what your VFD wants here.

25764

[chefffe]

Thanks for your drawing!

[Chaz]

Thanks for your drawing!

Does it make sense / help?

[Kitwn]

I have a 240v pump which is simply wired in parallel with the mains supply to the VFD. This means the pump runs continuously and therefore removes residual heat after each cut, reducing the starting temperature for the next cut. Simple but effective!

Kit

[chefffe]

Yes it makes sense, just dont know what you mean with "flood".
I am still in building phase of the CNC. Meanwhile I drive the pump simply with +24V and DCM triggering a 24V Relay. That means its always on when VFD is on, thats good enough for now. I will later on realize your idea with switching from Ramps with Gcode which is pretty smart.

I build a complete watercooling solution like for PCs with radiator and fan. What I read in the net, the Spindles dont need high flowrates so the little 12V pump should be enough (I hope).
Another question is for Machine Safety. I included a Killswitch which cuts the 230V input power completely. Now I read somewhere that its better to kill just the wires to the spindle, so that the capacitors cannot uncharge via the spindle and making the spindle down time longer? Is that true?
Do you all use RCD Type B for your CNC with VFD?

[Kitwn]

Like stepper drivers, the VFD can suffer terminal damage if you connect or disconnect the load when powered. Putting a kill switch in the spindle wiring is only appropriate if you believe there is a real risk of someone getting an electric shock from the spindle itself and don't care if the VFD gets wrecked to save them. If you believe such a risk is real then you shouldn't switch it on in the first place! Safety in this respect has more to do with adequate earthing and proper installation of the wiring. If you're still worried then never touch the powered spindle.
How long the spindle takes to run down to a stop (which is what I think you mean by the spindle 'down time') is not relevant in regard to a personal injury from the spinning tool since by the time you or someone else gets to hit the kill switch it will be too late.

[chefffe]

Ok thank you. I have no experience yet. I just did my first part today (just a little cut on a plate to 230x230) and it worked great. I will keep then my Killswitch as it is but will use a RCD Type B.
Just bought one with pretty insane price ... :-)

[Clive S]

Another question is for Machine Safety. I included a Killswitch which cuts the 230V input power completely. Now I read somewhere that its better to kill just the wires to the spindle, so that the capacitors cannot uncharge via the spindle and making the spindle down time longer? Is that true?
Do you all use RCD Type B for your CNC with VFD?

What ever you do. Do not put any switch between the spindle and the vfd as that would kill the vfd.

[Kitwn]

It's also worth pointing out that an RCD will not give you any protection in the event of a shock from the output of the VFD, only from contact with the mains supply. The choice of RCD type relates to the risk of spurious tripping caused by earth leakage in the VFD input filter.

[chefffe]

I built yet lots of 3D printers and such things and I have a solid education with electrics.
Just VFDs are completely new to me. I found information that a B-Type RCD should be used cause of the direct current which might give an issue when using VFD.
Its also important to know that between the outputs there should never be any switch, Thanks!

[Clive S]

I found information that a B-Type RCD should be used cause of the direct current which might give an issue when using VFD.

That's a new one on me. Would you mind giving a link to the info so we can all be educated.

[chefffe]

The maker of the program "Estlcam" mentioned that in a german forum:
https://cncwerk.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611

Here is the same info:
http://cnc.a-ueberbach.de/spindle/alles-ueber-die-22kw-chinaspindel/#fehlerstromschutzschalter_fircd

Translated with Google:
Residual current circuit breaker (FI / RCD)

In the case of a fault, DC residual currents with low residual ripple or high-frequency pulsating fault currents can occur in frequency inverters, which do not recognize the residual current circuit breakers normally installed in a domestic installation (FI type A). Likewise, the possible DC components in the fault current can lead to a saturation of the coil installed in the FI and render it significantly less sensitive to alternating currents.
According to VDE 0100-530, all-current-sensitive RCCBs (also known as RCD type B) must be installed here, but this entails costs of a few hundred euros.

[Clive S]

Well I read the forum posts you linked to as the spindle is not correctly grounded (ie only through the screen) If the spindle only has a 3 pin plug then I always change that to a 4 pin and connect the 4th pin to the spindle socket screw. Then use 4 core to supply the spindle with its 3 phase and earth.

[chefffe]

Thats one thing, the other is to use the RCD Type B.

[Clive S]

Thats one thing, the other is to use the RCD Type B.

Carry on then :encouragement:

[Kitwn]

I'm still confident that no RCD of any type will offer protection against a shock from the output of a VFD, or indeed any other power supply which has a transformer and/or rectifier between the mains input and the output. I used to teach electrical safety (in a previous millenium!), including how RCDs work, and this was a key point which electrical/electronic engineers and technicians needed to understand, though I admit my own knowledge did not include an in-depth understanding of type A, B, C etc. devices. Having done some reading this morning I believe the differences relate to resistance to spurious tripping or failing to trip due to the presence of harmonics and other interference in the mains current waveforms which are a serious consequence of direct rectification of the mains as used in many switch-mode power supplies.
On a happier note, the 2.2kW water cooled spindle I recently bought from the Hunag Yang Store on Ali Express already has a four pin plug with the case connected to pin 4.

Kit

[chefffe]

My Spindle also had 4 pins connector but Pin No. 4 was not connected. Of course I did that as well. To ground the spindle is a must, to use this RCD type might not be 100% a must for hobby CNC but regarding VDE it should be used with any VFD. In case of a fire, it might be an issue with insurance maybe ... but thats the decision of everybodys own.