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JAZZCNC
12-12-2019, 11:10 PM
Hi Folks,

Has the titile says I've come across a poorly sick n dying Fadal 15 VMC that I intend to bring back to life one way or another.
The video says it all really so watch it and save my poor fingers load of typing. Few pics as well.


https://youtu.be/oXaR0qrrsQE

268482684926850268512685226853

Voicecoil
13-12-2019, 10:49 AM
Good luck! I love the old CRT monitor.

Kitwn
13-12-2019, 11:07 AM
I was going to mention the CRT but though that might be a little facetious! I won't be so reticent in future:excitement:

The overall machine looks to be in good condition bar some reasonable wear and tear. Jazz, do you plan to get the original control system working or upgrade it to something more contemporary?

Kit

Chaz
13-12-2019, 11:08 AM
Hi Jazz, assume this was one for sale on the forum a few weeks ago?

**NEVERMIND** -- just started to watch the video.

JAZZCNC
25-12-2019, 08:35 PM
I was going to mention the CRT but though that might be a little facetious! I won't be so reticent in future:excitement:

The overall machine looks to be in good condition bar some reasonable wear and tear. Jazz, do you plan to get the original control system working or upgrade it to something more contemporary?

Kit

Sorry Kit I missed this.! . . . Watch this space for more info.!

JAZZCNC
25-12-2019, 10:03 PM
Ok so stuck some power to it and sure enough, it was still poorly sick n dieing. . . . Kicking it didn't work.!

So after further investigation and checking out the price of Fadal replacement cards it soon became apparent it wasn't worth sticking with the original control.
Apart from the fact parts are expensive and difficult to find in the UK it's also limited in Memory for running G-code generated by modern Cam. It could be made to do so by drip-feeding or adding USB etc but this all adds up and still got old control.

Now the question is what to replace it with.? and what to replace.?

The machine uses DC brushed Motors with Resolvers and AMC Amps, which all work fine and good quality units. However, I've decided to replace these with AC brushless servos and Modern Servo drives. The reason for this is simply to bring all up to modern standards that are readily available. The drives and resolvers for these old motors are getting harder to find and very expensive when found. Also, I can sell the old ones which will go a long way to AC servos or even cover the costs completely depending on what I use.!

Doing this also simplifies things in lots of ways.??? . . . Why the question marks, well there's a twist to the decision.!
Modern drives mean I can use Step n Dir controller rather than Analog if I like which will make things a little easier come set up time. The twist is that I want to use the 4th Axis which uses Brushed DC motor with resolver and the drives require Analog.!

So my options get a little more limited unless I change the 4th axis motor as well which I'm not so sure is easy to do. Need to check it out.!
The 4th Axis is high-quality Japanese Nikken unit which is also worth lot of money so possibility I might sell it.? . . . Not sure how much I need a 4th axis.!
I also have to consider the Resale value it will add to the machine compared to how much it's worth if sell it on its own.? Could shoot my self in the foot because there's a high probability I'll sell this machine when it's finished and could add a lot more value and salability to machine than the individual resale value of the 4th axis.?

To keep the 4th Axis without changing motors leaves me very few choices because the controller will need to mix Step & dir with Analog and be able to handle resolvers rather than encoders.!

Basically it boils down to just two, LinuxCNC with Mesa cards or Dynamotions Klop, even then I'm not sure the Kflop can use resolvers and requires encoders.? It is a possibility I can just change the Resolver for encoder on the 4th axis which I don't think will be too difficult. Need to check both out more.!

If I drop the 4th Axis then I can pretty much use whatever I like. However, this machine deserves a little better than just being closed loop back to the drives, so I want the loop closed back to the controller as well.
This rules out some of the weaker and cheaper options like Mach3/4 or UCcnc unless I go Analog, even then it doesn't come cheap and is less than ideal.

So I'm back to LinuxCnc, Kflop or some of the more expensive options like Centroid Oak, etc.

At the moment I'm strongly leaning towards Linux CNC and mesa cards which I know is more than capable.! . . . The weak link here is ME.!. . I've never used Linux CNC or Mesa cards but I know a man who knows is onions, hey Clive S..Lol . . . I'm sure together we'll figure it out.!

Watch this space.!


https://youtu.be/Lqur8bIdmGI

JAZZCNC
25-12-2019, 10:26 PM
Here's a couple of vids of me getting little excited thinking I'd found something good.!



https://youtu.be/6R-PTxN7nG8



https://youtu.be/7KaixFN0R9A

Chaz
25-12-2019, 10:31 PM
Granite make drives that can take Resolvers although I couldnt get them to work and had to send the drives back.

Linux CNC is a big learning curve, Linux in itself is too which blocks a lot of people. Its doable.

Wouldnt you consider CS Labs with SIM CNC? Is it the resolver feedback that rules it out?

JAZZCNC
25-12-2019, 11:11 PM
Granite make drives that can take Resolvers although I couldnt get them to work and had to send the drives back.

The only Drive they make that can take resolvers is the Argon but that cannot provide enough amps @12A continuous to run these motors, I need 15A continuous.


Linux CNC is a big learning curve, Linux in itself is too which blocks a lot of people. Its doable.

Yes, I know but I like a challenge, I'm already getting my head around it and things are starting to make sense.



Wouldnt you consider CS Labs with SIM CNC? Is it the resolver feedback that rules it out?

No not really it's still too young and I don't like the screens etc. The resolver feedback also rules it out if take that route, however if I dump the 4th axis idea then I still wouldn't use it because I would use Step & Dir and the IP-S cannot close the loop.

I do have an IP-A and could use that with Brushless AC servo's but I'd prefer to use Step & Dir and not have the hassle Analog tuning.

Chaz
25-12-2019, 11:18 PM
I know what you mean about Analog tuning. I went with Centroid Acorn for the Bridgeport conversion (running Panasonic Servos) and there is little that I miss from the Analog setup.

Clive S
26-12-2019, 12:26 AM
At the moment I'm strongly leaning towards Linux CNC and mesa cards which I know is more than capable.! . . . The weak link here is ME.!. . I've never used Linux CNC or Mesa cards but I know a man who knows is onions, hey Clive S..Lol . . . I'm sure together we'll figure it out.!

Watch this space.!



Don't take the piss it's a steep learning curve. But we will get there in another world.

Jonathan
26-12-2019, 12:17 PM
Nice machine. Bit odd how they leave the rails sticking outside the castings - does the carriage move onto that region or stop before?


At the moment I'm strongly leaning towards Linux CNC and mesa cards which I know is more than capable.! . . . The weak link here is ME.!. . I've never used Linux CNC or Mesa cards but I know a man who knows is onions, hey Clive S..Lol . . . I'm sure together we'll figure it out.!

Has everyone changed since I've been gone :excitement:. I'm sure between the people here you'll manage it. I've not tuned a servo motor with closed loop control through LinuxCNC either, but in other systems I've worked with it's generally not been so hard so I wouldn't shy away from it if that's a solution you can try without spending extra cash.

Voicecoil
26-12-2019, 12:31 PM
It is a possibility I can just change the Resolver for encoder on the 4th axis which I don't think will be too difficult. Need to check both out more.!
I would agree with this - you might need to machine up a few bits to kluge an encoder on, but from what you're saying that would be a lot less effort than some of the alternative routes.

magicniner
26-12-2019, 12:58 PM
If there was money in the budget for it I'd be tempted to go for a Siemens 808D Advanced or other stand alone industrial controller rather than a PC/OS/Software Mash Up, you end up with something that has been developed with industrial requirement pressures rather than developed by a committee, many of whom have never worked in machining.

Chaz
26-12-2019, 01:41 PM
If there was money in the budget for it I'd be tempted to go for a Siemens 808D Advanced or other stand alone industrial controller rather than a PC/OS/Software Mash Up, you end up with something that has been developed with industrial requirement pressures rather than developed by a committee, many of whom have never worked in machining.

What kinda money would something like this be?

Chaz
26-12-2019, 01:42 PM
This?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/263758810197?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=263758810197&targetid=538581668294&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9046084&poi=&campaignid=1669190339&mkgroupid=67214011160&rlsatarget=pla-538581668294&abcId=578896&merchantid=10123524&gclid=Cj0KCQiA0ZHwBRCRARIsAK0Tr-qUx_MDRsWrzRuLPDRpJmQacxxVrdGZPHqj2n1dEDkCChezqbR8 iHkaAh6JEALw_wcB

If that was 'all' it cost and no licenses would be needed, surely that would be worth it?

magicniner
26-12-2019, 01:57 PM
That's the 808D, 3-axis only, the 808D Advanced does 4 axes.
I'd expect to spend a few grand on the 4-Axis, ideally you also need the extra panel with speed and feed over-ride knobs etc.
Something Fanuc or Fanuc compatible would be equally good for a retro-fit but I favour Siemens as the documentation and support is excellent.

Chaz
26-12-2019, 02:52 PM
OK. Suppose if you could find something at discount rates, not bad. For me I might not need 4th axis, so wondering if this route might be worth considering.

Anyways - need to focus on house buying at the moment.

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 05:18 PM
Nice machine. Bit odd how they leave the rails sticking outside the castings - does the carriage move onto that region or stop before?

Honestly I don't know I've not moved axis to end stops but I've seen other industrial machines use similiar setups. Think some older Haas machines use this setup, which isn't surprising because the First haas VF machines where based on Fadals.



Has everyone changed since I've been gone :excitement:. I'm sure between the people here you'll manage it. I've not tuned a servo motor with closed loop control through LinuxCNC either, but in other systems I've worked with it's generally not been so hard so I wouldn't shy away from it if that's a solution you can try without spending extra cash.

Only thing that changed is a Few Old mates are missing and missed.!

Regards the Closed loop and Analog it doesn't really bother me if honest but why make things difficult if can use Step & Dir.
If wanted to keep the costs down I could just throw encoders on motors and use the Cslabs IP-A controller I already have and use all the existing motor/Amps etc But don't want to take that route, I'm thinking more long term for when things fail.

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 05:54 PM
If there was money in the budget for it I'd be tempted to go for a Siemens 808D Advanced or other stand alone industrial controller rather than a PC/OS/Software Mash Up, you end up with something that has been developed with industrial requirement pressures rather than developed by a committee, many of whom have never worked in machining.

Yes, this and few other more industrial controllers are being considered. However, I'm pretty sure the Sinumerik controllers only work with Siemans drives and motors and it's not worth throwing 8K at the machine this Old. Also, Industrial controllers like Siemens, Fanuc, etc all have hidden costs because features like 4Th axis or Ridged tapping, etc are licensed.

Also, let's be fair the reality is they offer nothing any of the others don't, other than little more Bling.! . . . . I see it like Cheap kitchens.? . . . Good Kitchen fitter can make a cheap kitchen look Bling just using better quality fittings.!

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 06:12 PM
A quick walk around today showing current state.


https://youtu.be/qYkL45tLSnc

Jonathan
26-12-2019, 07:39 PM
Sounds like you've decided already - your new years resolution is going to be learning to use LinuxCNC.

In theory the position control loop for your analogue drive could be put on a cheap microcontroller that accepts a step/dir input and effectively converts it to analogue. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's made a widget to do that. I don't think it would make anything easier though, as although you'd save needing to use the mesa cards (as may get away with just parallel ports), it just makes the tuning problem more difficult as you loose the nice interface that LinuxCNC provides (halscope).

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 08:45 PM
Sounds like you've decided already - your new years resolution is going to be learning to use LinuxCNC.

Not 100% decided and still chewing on it but yes it's looking very much like LinuxCNC is the front runner. ( Thou John S will be turning in his grave calling me all the bastards under the sun ...Lol)

m_c
26-12-2019, 09:42 PM
A KFlop witih a Kanalog can be made to work with resolvers, but it can be hit or miss, as it depends on how the resolvers respond, and how well they can be tuned. TomK certainly doesn't recommend it, but I am aware of at least one person who has done it, as they had nothing to lose from trying.

However as Jonathan has mentioned, I do think I have come across an interface board for resolvers, but I can't remember any details.


I think personally, I'd strip the 4th axis down to see if you can fit a replacement motor without having to modify the rotab itself, that way if you do sell it, you can put it back to how it was.

m.marino
26-12-2019, 10:12 PM
A yes learning curves. Wonderful thing and Yes, John S would be cussing you out Jazz. Jonathan, you volunteering to aid in the mission of the Linux CNC side of things? These days for me CNC is mostly design as current location doesn't allow me to run my gantry router due to the locals have very very sticky fingers and crow bars. Though the learning curve is still fun as working with scanning as part of work and with both OpenScan and FabScan Pi (I hate software programming).

Looks like a very in depth project Jazz. Of my two cents I would try to keep the 4th axis if possible.

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 10:30 PM
A KFlop witih a Kanalog can be made to work with resolvers, but it can be hit or miss, as it depends on how the resolvers respond, and how well they can be tuned. TomK certainly doesn't recommend it, but I am aware of at least one person who has done it, as they had nothing to lose from trying..

I couldn't see anything on the website that mentioned resolvers but didn't ask either, just took it that didn't accept them.



I think personally, I'd strip the 4th axis down to see if you can fit a replacement motor without having to modify the rotab itself, that way if you do sell it, you can put it back to how it was.

Yes but it's not so easy with the way it's built. The cover is designed for round type motor with no room for Encoder and Motor wire connecters modern square type motors tend to have fitted.
Also Iike the DC motors that are fitted I suspect the shaft size will be smaller than AC servo shafts so the coupler will need to be machined etc.

That said I will be taking it apart to have a look.

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 10:49 PM
Lee if your reading this I can't upload Pics anymore is there a limit.? I have tried deleting some pics from old posts.?

Jonathan
26-12-2019, 10:54 PM
A KFlop witih a Kanalog can be made to work with resolvers, but it can be hit or miss, as it depends on how the resolvers respond, and how well they can be tuned.

Most resolvers take the same excitation frequency (10kHz), but they often have different transformation ratios. If you don't have a scope to check, or know what voltage levels are required then it would end up being hit and miss.


Jonathan, you volunteering to aid in the mission of the Linux CNC side of things?

I'll keep an eye on this thread for any questions.


However as Jonathan has mentioned, I do think I have come across an interface board for resolvers, but I can't remember any details.

That not quite what I was thinking, but is probably a better idea. I once programmed a micro-controller to convert a digital encoder (BiSS) into analogue signals to match with a motor drive that wouldn't accept much else. Going the other way round is actually easier.

Dean, would it solve problems if you had a little board that took resolver signals and converted them to e.g. quadrature?

m_c
26-12-2019, 11:18 PM
The resolver information for Dynomotion can be found at https://dynomotion.com/Help/Resolver/Resolver.htm
That example uses their old obsolete KMotion board, but the same can still be done using a KFlop + Kanalog.
If you did want to give it a try, I do have a spare KFlop + Kanalog board you could borrow.

I did do a quick bit googling, and this is the only active product I've found so far - http://addi-data.com/products/resolver-to-digital-converter/

RS do have an entire section of Resolver to Digital chips, but even the bare chips have some interesting price tags, so I'd imagine that converter will be at least a couple hundred euros, if not a lot more!

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 11:25 PM
Dean, would it solve problems if you had a little board that took resolver signals and converted them to e.g. quadrature?

If I was doing this just for my self to keep then yes I'd probably take a route something along those lines or whatever got the job done. However, this has to be done with selling the machine in mind. So I wouldn't want any bespoke boards etc which would cause a buyer hassles in the future, because the hassles will just rebound back to me.

Saving money isn't a priority but with that said I do need to keep an eye on the budget because it can easily run away. This why industrial controllers are off the table because the machine while still very capable is still 25yrs old with a much reduced resale value and it's highly unlikely to ever see use in an industrial setting again so we cannot command the prices asked in Industry. Any new owner is most probably going to be a serious Hobby or small business user and they won't pay industry prices.

The main priority is ending up with a Reliable machine that uses off the shelf modern components, along with a controller that works and has a decent support network that Hobby or small business person can access freely if required.
Linux CNC/Mesa are proven with massive following and support so I've no concern in this department. Likewise so Is Kflop and Centroid and again wouldn't hesitate to use either of these.
However, LinuxCNC/Mesa are favorites because of the budget and the fact the others offer nothing more but cost more. All of them are new to me at this level with Servo's etc so whichever there is a learning curve to deal with. But I like the challenge.!!

JAZZCNC
26-12-2019, 11:35 PM
The resolver information for Dynomotion can be found at https://dynomotion.com/Help/Resolver/Resolver.htm
That example uses their old obsolete KMotion board, but the same can still be done using a KFlop + Kanalog.
If you did want to give it a try, I do have a spare KFlop + Kanalog board you could borrow.

I did do a quick bit googling, and this is the only active product I've found so far - http://addi-data.com/products/resolver-to-digital-converter/

RS do have an entire section of Resolver to Digital chips, but even the bare chips have some interesting price tags, so I'd imagine that converter will be at least a couple hundred euros, if not a lot more!

Thanks, Moray, to be honest, I think the Resolvers are going to get the bullet or like you mentioned earlier the 4th motor will get swapped out. They are just complicating the job too much and for no gain really. Replacement encoders are easily found and not expensive so for the price of a Resolver card they can be replaced and keep job simple.

m.marino
27-12-2019, 09:20 AM
Jazz would a PWM to analog converter work with the motors you currently have in place? As they are an off the shelf item and do come in many different voltage tolerances. That would save having to replace the servos. I do know that some are used with upgrades of older machines in the Michigan. As the servos are stil rock solid the electronics go to crap well before the servo ever does on many older machines. Seems like they cut the corners on the wiring and boards over the motors. That or the tech to make high quality motors had already come down to reasonable prices back in the 80's and 90's, when a lot of these machine were being made.

Good luck on the the rebuild and will keep watching. Now you have my son Mario reading up on Linux CNC (which is a good thing).

JAZZCNC
28-12-2019, 01:11 AM
Ok I'm seriously considering something along these lines. That's a lot of firepower for £2k with Absolute encoder motors/drives and all cables etc. I've also been in touch with someone who's been retrofitting machines using these particular manufacturers controllers for 2yrs and they say good things about them. So I'm not worried about the company or quality. They say it's not quite Siemans quality but does the job fine and reasonable to set up with good support.
I'm waiting for them to come back to me with prices because I want an extra panel for MPG etc and a slightly larger motor size. I also requested manuals.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32973749478.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.23.63f3 65f46csrYK

I'm also looking at Adtech controller with 10" screen with there Q series Drives/Motors which again if bought from China will come for around £2k mark. Not Absolute encoders but still decent quality.

http://www.adtechcnc.co.uk/adt-cnc4940-4-axis-millingdrilling-cnc-system/

It will probably mean I've got to change the motor on the 4th axis or find a DC brushed drive like Argon that will accept Step & Dir inputs but can live with that. Or as mentioned I'll just sell it on.?

The search still goes on, no stone will be left unturned or unconsidered.!

Chaz
28-12-2019, 11:49 AM
For info, I moved Thor (CS Labs IP-A) onto Mach 4 yesterday to try it out. I had pretty much got Mach 3 working OK but was never happy with its stability and the tuning always seemed a bit off.

Took a few hours to work out how to set it up. Having got SIMCNC working helped a bit as they use some similar 'terminology' in their plugin.

The machine is not tuned property but its working. Some issues with spindle control but I suspect that is related to the VFD, not Mach 4.

My thoughts are 'that's nice, screens look OK etc' but I struggle to see the benefit of the extra work for Servo control where postition control via step / direction just works. Sure, you dont have any live encoder / DRO / closed loop control or knowing if you missed a step but if the machine is setup well, do you really need it?

So yes, moving to Position Control for simplicity must be high on the agenda.

Neale
28-12-2019, 11:56 AM
Jazz - watch out for the carriage charge on the AliExpress controller! When I looked just now, it was over £116,000! I think someone's sums went wrong...

m_c
28-12-2019, 01:23 PM
One thing to be aware off with the Chinese controllers, is the often quoted 'headline' price has limited axis interpolation.

When I was looking a few years ago, the standard price often only included 2.5/3 axis interpolation, if you wanted true 4 axis interpolation, you had to pay quite a bit more for it.

Jonathan
28-12-2019, 02:19 PM
One thing to be aware off with the Chinese controllers, is the often quoted 'headline' price has limited axis interpolation.

When I was looking a few years ago, the standard price often only included 2.5/3 axis interpolation, if you wanted true 4 axis interpolation, you had to pay quite a bit more for it.

To me, this is the sort of thing that makes LinuxCNC more persuasive - the unforeseen features and functions a dedicated controller may lack. You'll have to learn how to set up either option, so better the one which leads to more options?

I like how they advertise the microcontroller:

"32-bit high performance low power industrial grade microprocessor, 400MHz CPU speed"

That's a $10 part:

https://www.digikey.com/products/en?mpart=STM32H743ZIT6&v=497

... but still appropriate. The issue is more that you're presumably locked into only whatever the existing firmware can do. If their customer service is good though it might be a good system.

m_c
28-12-2019, 03:13 PM
To me, this is the sort of thing that makes LinuxCNC more persuasive - the unforeseen features and functions a dedicated controller may lack. You'll have to learn how to set up either option, so better the one which leads to more options?

I like how they advertise the microcontroller:

"32-bit high performance low power industrial grade microprocessor, 400MHz CPU speed"

That's a $10 part:

https://www.digikey.com/products/en?mpart=STM32H743ZIT6&v=497

... but still appropriate. The issue is more that you're presumably locked into only whatever the existing firmware can do. If their customer service is good though it might be a good system.

A key thing to remember, is there are probably tens of thousands of these controllers in use in China, so any bugs are likely to have been dealt with.

The big issue is getting support in English, as having seen a couple of the manuals, they are very much in classic Chinglish with lots of questionable translations.
I'd be happy to try one in a pretty basic machine, however I'm not sure I'd be confident to install one on a machine with anything needing some custom programming/setup.

JAZZCNC
28-12-2019, 05:45 PM
Jazz - watch out for the carriage charge on the AliExpress controller! When I looked just now, it was over £116,000! I think someone's sums went wrong...

Ah ah didn't see that but don't worry this isn't my first rodeo, I've been buying from China long before most on this forum dare think about it.!

The link was just for reference, if I go this route it won't be that exact controller or motors and the price Inc shipping will be quoted beforehand in writing. I'll also have looked at all the manuals to verify does exactly what I need and what it says on the tin.

JAZZCNC
30-12-2019, 11:08 PM
Nice machine. Bit odd how they leave the rails sticking outside the castings - does the carriage move onto that region or stop before?

You got me curious about these rails Jonathan so been to work today and wound Y-axis to the limits. The carriages stay within the casting limits and don't ride onto the overhanging rails at all so not quite sure why they would waste so much rail.? The only thing I can think to explain is that they do an XT version with longer travels and can not imagine the XT uses a different frame casting only longer rails and ballscrews so maybe it's got the longer rails on it.? That said the X rails only hangover 50mm each end so not sure about X.?
Put a longer ballscrew on Y-axis and could easily get another 200mm travel.

m_c
30-12-2019, 11:13 PM
You got me curious about these rails Jonathan so been to work today and wound Y-axis to the limits. The carriages stay within the casting limits and don't ride onto the overhanging rails at all so not quite sure why they would waste so much rail.? The only thing I can think to explain is that they do an XT version with longer travels and can not imagine the XT uses a different frame casting only longer rails and ballscrews so maybe it's got the longer rails on it.? That said the X rails only hangover 50mm each end so not sure about X.?
Put a longer ballscrew on Y-axis and could easily get another 200mm travel.

I've not watched the video, but could it be for supporting/mounting the way covers on?

JAZZCNC
30-12-2019, 11:54 PM
I've not watched the video, but could it be for supporting/mounting the way covers on?

No Moray the Fadal doesn't have conventional way cover on the Y-axis ie: telescopic covers. It's a one-piece cover that goes through the saddle Quite neat setup actually.

JAZZCNC
17-01-2020, 07:40 PM
Ok quick update.
I'm still in the process of trying to decide which controller I'm going with. I'm narrowing it down slowly and I think I'm nearly there.?
These are the candidates that are still in the running.?

Linux CNC with Mesa Cards 7i76e + 7i85 which I've already purchased and are currently being played with by Clive (Clive S) testing with AC incremental servo's and closing the loop back to Linux CNC.

Next up are two Chinese industrial controllers both using 2Kw Bus type Absolute Servos. Newker 1000-18i-Mi and Gunt - 350iMa both with C type Subpanel with MPG.
These are interesting to me because I like the idea of an industrial controller without a PC. I also like the idea of Bus type Absolute servos because of the ease of use wiring/setup and servo's always knowing their exact location even after power down so not having to install limit or home switches.
My reservations are both of them are Chinese and I'll be dealing with Chinglish manuals which won't help when it comes to writing ATC macro's and using PLC.
However, I'm used to Chinglish and dealing with Chinese company's and the price is very very good.!
Only downside is I won't be able to use my 4th Axis so I'll probably sell that if take this route.

I was looking at Adtech controllers/servos but I've seen some negative comments from users about lag on 3D toolpaths or on toolpaths like adaptive with high data rates due to slow DNC feeding the code from external cards etc. Also after carefully checking out specs and manuals etc, they are quite limiting in speed at 10mtr/min when really this machine would run closer to 20mtr/min rapids with 2Kw AC motors.

http://newker-cnc.com/index.php?m=content&c=index&f=show&catid=165&l=3&id=90

Lastly and new to the running and one that I'm seriously considering using is Puruvesi ET10 controller using UmyCNC software.

This is a company I've only discovered in recent months through helping another member of the forum and after doing a lot of research and reading the manual cover to cover I've become very impressed with it.
The Ethernet controller is very well made and provides both Analog and Step N Dir closed-loop system with more than enough I/O for my needs. It also allows me to mix Step n Dir with Analog so I could keep the 4th axis with an encoder change.

The UmyCNC software is very nice indeed, not so much because of how it looks but for what it allows you to do and the S curve planner it uses. It pretty much allows you to build a system exactly as you'd like it using a mixture of G-code and C++ Macros and PLC. S-curve planners give very nice smooth toolpaths.
The GUI is fully customizable so you can build custom front end if required and it's very Touch screen friendly. (I'm not keen on the profiles provided so I probably will be doing this.!) It's also very flexible regards what computer and OS it will run on, Linux, Windows even Raspberry py's. I'll probably run it on Linux as it's a very stable OS.

The only downside with this setup is that I will have to use Incremental encoders as it doesn't support absolute encoders.

Another BIG plus is the backup and fact hardware and software are both in house. I've already been in touch with Ivan at Puruvesi who has been super helpful with quick replies answering technical questions and offering experienced advice. The support and backup is a big Plus.

I'm also seriously considering switching to there lower ET6 and ET7 models controllers on the routers I build. They have everything I need from a controller, like slaved motors and gantry squaring/homing, probing, built-in camera vision system and tangental knife friendly which is great for some of the plotter type machines I build. Again the S curve planner is also interesting and exciting because they really shine on routers and improve performance massively on 3D toolpaths.
They will also be more than good enough for the Mills I convert and the future plans I have for super-strong Mini Mill I intend building. They are also very plasma orientated which is a bonus and an area I will be looking into more also.

However, as always I'll be thrashing them to death first on a test machine to within an inch of its life before I commit to switching. But to be honest I haven't been this impressed by the Spec of a controller/software for a long long time and after communications, with Ivan, I'm very optimistic it will be a good experience. You can rest assured if it's not you'll hear about that as well.!

I'll keep you posted.

Voicecoil
17-01-2020, 10:20 PM
Cheers for the heads-up on the Puruvesi gear, looks interesting & powerful, I await your test results with interest. It might be a minor point but I do like their use of the plug-in connectors; with some of the mating options that people like Phoenix contact offer, there's the possibility of doing some nifty and time-saving stuff.

JAZZCNC
18-01-2020, 12:30 PM
Cheers for the heads-up on the Puruvesi gear, looks interesting & powerful, I await your test results with interest. It might be a minor point but I do like their use of the plug-in connectors; with some of the mating options that people like Phoenix contact offer, there's the possibility of doing some nifty and time-saving stuff.

Yes, it's got a lot of potentials and it's proven in another Fadal machine so I'm very tempted to give it a try. However, I do like the Absolute Servo option so I'm leaning more towards this route.
Also to be fair I've got to compare it with Linux CNC in some ways because Mesa cards are very good quality and very well supported. And while I've never used either of them both are a learning curve in both hardware and software. Software support will be a little quicker but I'm in no rush so that's not too important for this Job. Costs, on the other hand, have to be considered and Linux CNC is quite a lot cheaper and offers much the same functionality.

Regards the Phoenix contact they look nice but expensive. Not too impressed with the web site, don't see the point in having a shop if you don't show prices.! Usually, a sign they are too expensive.!

Voicecoil
18-01-2020, 01:29 PM
Phoenix seem to sell pretty well all their stuff through distribution, which might explain the lack of pricing. They are more expensive than the Oriental clones, but they also do some useful and time saving variants I've not seen from China such as IDC & spring clamp plugs and "reversed" PCB mounting plugs that enable you to piggyback a PCB onto the header - greater for sorting out signals and transferring them to a more useful connector. Forgive the suggestions but having just spent too long wiring up my control box it occurred to me that if you were making a number of machines with more or less similar control systems there had to be a slightly better way than point to point wiring with screw terminals.

JAZZCNC
18-01-2020, 04:19 PM
Forgive the suggestions but having just spent too long wiring up my control box it occurred to me that if you were making a number of machines with more or less similar control systems there had to be a slightly better way than point to point wiring with screw terminals.

Don't be daft I love knowing about other products so always welcome suggestions or seeing different ways people wire etc. I believe never too old to learn new tricks or experienced enough that you know it all. Thanks

m_c
18-01-2020, 08:30 PM
Phoenix are one of the big connector suppliers, in the same market as Molex and Amp, who sell most things through distributors, although I don't think they target the big OEM market in the way that Molex and Amp do.

Dynomotion use Phoenix pluggable screw connectors on their add-on boards, as they're a reasonably common connector that can handle the currents needed for most connections. They also use a dual connection connector, that can be fitted so the wiring is either parallel, or perpendicular to the board. It's a useful feature when space is tight.

However, it's also an additional point of failure. If you put too much pressure on the terminals, it can cause the contacts to open up. I had an intermittent issue with a bank of inputs on a Konnect IO expansion board, and it turned out I'd put to much pressure on the common wire during installation, which had caused the contacts to open up and be intermittent.

Direct screw terminals vs pluggable connectors is a perennial debate, but there are pros and cons to both.

JAZZCNC
18-01-2020, 09:04 PM
However, it's also an additional point of failure. If you put too much pressure on the terminals, it can cause the contacts to open up. I had an intermittent issue with a bank of inputs on a Konnect IO expansion board, and it turned out I'd put to much pressure on the common wire during installation, which had caused the contacts to open up and be intermittent.

Direct screw terminals vs pluggable connectors is a perennial debate, but there are pros and cons to both.

I had the same thing happen to me. Took me 3 days to find the fault.! 10 x 5 router was built and finished and on test, it had been cutting air for 5 hours then it E-stoped. Happened at the same point in code every time.? Turned out to be a connection on the gantry that opened up due to wire pressure and because the Cslabs controller is so sensitive it picked up the loose connection at that exact resonant frequency. Pulled my last follicle of hair out and Virtually re-wired the whole machine.!!

I only use Direct screw terminals now.!

JAZZCNC
14-02-2020, 10:38 PM
Ok well, it's decided I'm going with the Newker New18Mi Bus type Controller with 2Kw absolute Motors and drives.
27382

It's a bit of an unknown using this controller and the Bus type controller but I've read the manual cover to cover a good few times and Newker has been helpful answering my questions quickly with good explanations of few things I wasn't sure about. So decided to give them a shot and the price is excellent, which I won't disclose as I promised them I wouldn't because they have done me a bit of a deal so please don't ask.

If it performs as I hope then it should make for a very nice addition to the machine increasing performance and reliability.

Watch this space.!

Chaz
15-02-2020, 11:40 AM
So what did it cost? ;p

That said, Keen to see a new controller and how it performs. Cant wait ....

magicniner
15-02-2020, 12:58 PM
the price is excellent, which I won't disclose as I promised them I wouldn't because they have done me a bit of a deal so please don't ask.!

You could at least tell us what List Price is.

JAZZCNC
15-02-2020, 03:53 PM
You could at least tell us what List Price is.

Drop them a line if you want to know anything. I promised I wouldn't mention pricing and I'm a man of my word so stop asking, please.

http://newker-cnc.com/index.php?m=co...=165&l=3&id=90

ivan-mycnc
27-02-2020, 03:24 PM
Haven't heard about these controllers before, some competition to watch out for I guess!

Let us know how it performs.

JAZZCNC
27-02-2020, 09:00 PM
Haven't heard about these controllers before, some competition to watch out for I guess!

Let us know how it performs.

Hi Ivan,

To be honest it was a very close thing between your controller and this. I really liked what your controller offered regards it's hardware and what it would allow me to do with the machine. But if I'm being honest the thing that swayed my choice was the main GUI, I really didn't get on with it in simulation mode.

I found the screen confusing and cluttered with buttons and info I didn't need to see on the main working screen. Likewise things I would like to see where missing or not very obvious. It's not intuitive at all and this really lets it down for me.

I'm used to jumping from software to software using different Control software and hardware all the time and I know the fact that I struggled to gets to grip with it then new users will have a very hard time because it's just not intuitive enough with cluttered screen.

To give an example a forum member and new user to CNC recently posted asking questions about tool changing in Planet CNC controller. Now I've never used this software before but straight away within 2mins, the main screen made sense because it displayed everything I needed and was uncluttered with nice big displays for toolpath and G-code that could be dragged about and sized easily.
All the buttons for often-used functions or custom scripts etc are nicely layout around the edges and all buttons display a short description of what it does when the mouse is held over it. These little things make a big difference to user's experience, esp those who are not using their machines on a daily basis or even weekly basis like many weekend machinists do, so they don't retain what all the buttons, etc do and would spend lot of wasted time refiguring out how to operate your software.

I'm dealing with new users week in week out and I know your software GUI would cause me lots of wasted time answering questions about it because it's just not intuitive enough.

Now please don't take this the wrong way because I'm not pulling down your product and I think the hardware looks very very capable and I am going to try it very soon on my routers, I'm just very busy at the moment so couldn't do it justice.

I hope you take this in the manner it's meant which is feedback, I'm sorry it's negative feedback but hopefully, you can use this and turn it into a positive and improve your GUI because no matter how good the Hardware if the software lets it down then it just doesn't work for me and I know wouldn't for many other users, esp those new to CNC.

Edit: I'm happy to help with feedback or testing regards user experience and I have a lot of experience with dealing with new users so I've got a good insight into what they struggle with. So just ask if this helps.

ivan-mycnc
28-02-2020, 01:20 AM
Hi Ivan,

To be honest it was a very close thing between your controller and this. I really liked what your controller offered regards it's hardware and what it would allow me to do with the machine. But if I'm being honest the thing that swayed my choice was the main GUI, I really didn't get on with it in simulation mode.

I found the screen confusing and cluttered with buttons and info I didn't need to see on the main working screen. Likewise things I would like to see where missing or not very obvious. It's not intuitive at all and this really lets it down for me.

I'm used to jumping from software to software using different Control software and hardware all the time and I know the fact that I struggled to gets to grip with it then new users will have a very hard time because it's just not intuitive enough with cluttered screen.

To give an example a forum member and new user to CNC recently posted asking questions about tool changing in Planet CNC controller. Now I've never used this software before but straight away within 2mins, the main screen made sense because it displayed everything I needed and was uncluttered with nice big displays for toolpath and G-code that could be dragged about and sized easily.
All the buttons for often-used functions or custom scripts etc are nicely layout around the edges and all buttons display a short description of what it does when the mouse is held over it. These little things make a big difference to user's experience, esp those who are not using their machines on a daily basis or even weekly basis like many weekend machinists do, so they don't retain what all the buttons, etc do and would spend lot of wasted time refiguring out how to operate your software.

I'm dealing with new users week in week out and I know your software GUI would cause me lots of wasted time answering questions about it because it's just not intuitive enough.

Now please don't take this the wrong way because I'm not pulling down your product and I think the hardware looks very very capable and I am going to try it very soon on my routers, I'm just very busy at the moment so couldn't do it justice.

I hope you take this in the manner it's meant which is feedback, I'm sorry it's negative feedback but hopefully, you can use this and turn it into a positive and improve your GUI because no matter how good the Hardware if the software lets it down then it just doesn't work for me and I know wouldn't for many other users, esp those new to CNC.

Edit: I'm happy to help with feedback or testing regards user experience and I have a lot of experience with dealing with new users so I've got a good insight into what they struggle with. So just ask if this helps.

Hey Jazz, thanks for the reply!

Right off the bat, I just wanted to say that any feedback (especially when it's as reasonable as yours) is always better than no feedback at all, so thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts. Regarding how intuitive the software is - I absolutely agree with you that a lot of machinists simply do not have the time to re-learn what all the buttons and knobs do, and when the screen is cluttered, that problem gets worse. Tooltips are a must - that's why we are just finishing up adding them to all of our profiles for all of our on-screen elements. We will be releasing updated application profiles as soon as testing is finished, but as of this week all the major parts of that system are in place and ready to go.

As for complexity of the GUI in general, it's pretty much a split right down the middle for our customers, with those wanting as little non-crucial info and buttons on the main screen as possible (some going as far as to remove the 2D/3D toolpath visualizations entirely), and those who want all the information and all the buttons, all the time. What we are learning more and more is that it's near impossible to satisfy both camps, so we are considering adding a simplified interface that retains only the most important software functions, and hides away all the information that is not 100% necessary.

The good thing is that myCNC is extremely customizable, that means it doesn't take us much time to create custom profiles, or to design a slimmed-down version of the software (and the same can be done by our users, should they want to do some screen editing). We'd love for you to take a look at our updated interface when it's ready, so we'll keep in touch and will hopefully have something for you soon.

Let me know if you end up testing myCNC on your routers!

JAZZCNC
28-02-2020, 06:20 PM
Right off the bat, I just wanted to say that any feedback (especially when it's as reasonable as yours) is always better than no feedback at all, so thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts.

Great that you see it this way, it's always a good sign when a person or company embraces negative feedback rather than taking offense.


so we are considering adding a simplified interface that retains only the most important software functions, and hides away all the information that is not 100% necessary.

I think this would be a better approach, maybe do it in such a way that standard functions or groups of related functions can simply and easily be turned on/off as needed and dragged around the main screen rather than needing to edit screens, etc. Similar to how CAM and CAD software, etc does it. This would make it easy to simply customize the screen with standard or often-used functions that suit the type of machine your using.

For those that want to have Custom layouts or functions etc then they can edit screens as you say.

Anyway, hope my feedback and suggestions help.

magicniner
29-02-2020, 12:48 PM
Drop them a line if you want to know anything. I promised I wouldn't mention pricing and I'm a man of my word so stop asking, please.

http://newker-cnc.com/index.php?m=co...=165&l=3&id=90

No problem, I won't ask again, I never even ask companies with Secret Pricing Policies, it invariably means they assess each customer as to how far their leg can be lifted on a case by case basis.

Chaz
29-02-2020, 01:01 PM
No problem, I won't ask again, I never even ask companies with Secret Pricing Policies, it invariably means they assess each customer as to how far their leg can be lifted on a case by case basis.

I have a similar view. I'm happy to know what list price is, if anyone knows. I dont need to know what discount was got for the demo / promo.

JAZZCNC
29-02-2020, 01:13 PM
No problem, I won't ask again, I never even ask companies with Secret Pricing Policies, it invariably means they assess each customer as to how far their leg can be lifted on a case by case basis.

It's not so much secret pricing as the fact I was asked not to share the quote because it wasn't a normal situation, which I didn't and I won't.

My reply regards list price was also based on the fact I explicitly stated please don't ask the price and gave the reason why. Yet you and Chaz didn't have the decency to respect this and still pushed for a price, so if you want it so bad then go find it your bloody selves.!

Chaz
29-02-2020, 01:34 PM
It's not so much secret pricing as the fact I was asked not to share the quote because it wasn't a normal situation, which I didn't and I won't.

My reply regards list price was also based on the fact I explicitly stated please don't ask the price and gave the reason why. Yet you and Chaz didn't have the decency to respect this and still pushed for a price, so if you want it so bad then go find it your bloody selves.!

I didnt push for a price. I asked, tongue in cheek, knowing you said you wouldnt share and not to ask, that part was a joke.

My point is that like Magicniner, I dont do 'POA', I dont like it and I'm not going to do the work to find the price if its not listed easily to see.

JAZZCNC
29-02-2020, 02:48 PM
So what did it cost? ;p

That said, Keen to see a new controller and how it performs. Cant wait ....


I didnt push for a price. I asked, tongue in cheek, knowing you said you wouldnt share and not to ask, that part was a joke.

My point is that like Magicniner, I dont do 'POA', I dont like it and I'm not going to do the work to find the price if its not listed easily to see.

Don't see anything in that post that indicates you was making a funny remark.? . . . That :whistle: OR :joker: that would indicate a funny.!

The whole point in me putting what I did was so not to lead into this kind of debate and distract from the re-build thread.
I wasn't and I'm not trying to sell these controllers to anyone so I don't give a flying F#'k if you don't like POA but I do care that I keep my word to a supplier. Also when I see someone explicitly asking not to enquire regards price I would expect those reading to respect their wishes.!

Chaz
29-02-2020, 02:50 PM
So what did it cost? ;p

That said, Keen to see a new controller and how it performs. Cant wait ....

This JazzCNC - see the ;p - it means tongue in cheek.

JAZZCNC
29-02-2020, 03:08 PM
This JazzCNC - see the ;p - it means tongue in cheek.

Not to me it doesn't but better still don't bother next time hey.!

Chaz
29-02-2020, 05:15 PM
Wow. I had hoped the fact that we know a bit about each other have been on this forum together for a number of years would count for something, clearly not. Looks like you are having a bad day.

Get off your high horse. I told you its a joke, don't believe me, go fly.

Its odd how abrasive everyone finds you. It must be all of us, clearly.

I've worked with some brilliant people in my time - both in my teams and teams working for others, some of them are really good at what they do and they having amazing abilities however people cant work with them as they are toxic and abrasive and in the end, no use to man or beast.

JAZZCNC
29-02-2020, 06:08 PM
Get off your high horse. I told you its a joke, don't believe me, go fly.

Never said anything about not believing you, said it didn't come across as funny to me.


Its odd how abrasive everyone finds you. It must be all of us, clearly.

I've worked with some brilliant people in my time - both in my teams and teams working for others, some of them are really good at what they do and they having amazing abilities however people cant work with them as they are toxic and abrasive and in the end, no use to man or beast.

Who's showing their true colours now then.? . . .Not anywhere did I get insulting towards you or anyone else but yet you feel the need to attack and insult me personally just because I showed a dislike to you asking something I explicitly asked not to be asked.!

However, if you truly now how everyone feels towards me then I can remedy that in one go.

johngoodrich
29-02-2020, 06:54 PM
Jazz ignore him. you give your opinions with honesty and give so many people on here the help they need from experience of these types of machines. you are definitely in my top people on this forum and I don't think people want you to leave.

Chaz
29-02-2020, 06:55 PM
Never said anything about not believing you, said it didn't come across as funny to me.



Who's showing their true colours now then.? . . .Not anywhere did I get insulting towards you or anyone else but yet you feel the need to attack and insult me personally just because I showed a dislike to you asking something I explicitly asked not to be asked.!

However, if you truly now how everyone feels towards me then I can remedy that in one go.

Go look at your posts, go look at all the 'fights' on this forum. I've been a long time supporter of yours, I appreciate the value you bring but it comes at a cost. That cost is abrasiveness and harshness, even when its not needed.

I told you that it was a tongue in cheek comment, your response is to rubbish what I said. Suppose like others I'm just tired of needing to pussyfoot around your demeanour.

BobTSkutter
29-02-2020, 07:08 PM
Hello, this is my first post. I know it's normal to introduce yourself, but I thought I would chime in and ask everyone to calm down. We dont have to like everyone all of the time, but please stop arguing. Does anyone want a cup of tea, I might have some hobnobs somewhere.
Bob

JAZZCNC
29-02-2020, 07:40 PM
Go look at your posts, go look at all the 'fights' on this forum. I've been a long time supporter of yours, I appreciate the value you bring but it comes at a cost. That cost is abrasiveness and harshness, even when it's not needed.

Some times there is no other way than to be harsh to cut thru the crap that's being spouted and if you or anyone else doesn't like it then it's tuff shit because I'm not changing or ignoring false or wrong information just because some snow flake doesn't like my writing tone. If it's wrong I'm saying so whether they like it or not.!


I told you that it was a tongue in cheek comment, your response is to rubbish what I said. Suppose like others I'm just tired of needing to pussyfoot around your demeanor.

I didn't rubbish anything, I said I didn't see the funny side and please not to bother in the future.

You seem to know what everyone thinks and it appears I've out stayed my welcome. Bye

JAZZCNC
29-02-2020, 07:48 PM
Jazz ignore him. you give your opinions with honesty and give so many people on here the help they need from experience of these types of machines. you are definitely in my top people on this forum and I don't think people want you to leave.

Thanks, John but there's a limit to how many times you can be attacked on a personal level and I've just about had enough. I don't need this Crap, esp from people who I've gone out of my way to help in the past. If that's how it truly is then why the hell should I carry on devoting my time and energy passing on my experience to people who just turn around and insult you. . . Don't need this Shit.!

Chaz
29-02-2020, 08:21 PM
Thanks, John but there's a limit to how many times you can be attacked on a personal level and I've just about had enough. I don't need this Crap, esp from people who I've gone out of my way to help in the past. If that's how it truly is then why the hell should I carry on devoting my time and energy passing on my experience to people who just turn around and insult you. . . Don't need this Shit.!

Jazz, two things.

1. You left the forum before as people seemed to struggle to get along with you. This feels like Deja Vu.

2. Why don't you tell everyone the full story behind the help you gave me?

Otherwise, let's just leave it at that. You do your thing, I'll do mine and I wont interfere with your thread(s) again.

Thanks

JAZZCNC
29-02-2020, 08:53 PM
Jazz, two things.

1. You left the forum before as people seemed to struggle to get along with you. This feels like Deja Vu.

Chaz gets your fact straight. I never left the forum, circumstances in my life which I won't get into with you, made it so had a long absence. So if you took that or read more into it then that's your problem.


2. Why don't you tell everyone the full story behind the help you gave me?

Don't try to make this sound more sinister than it is, and if I'm honest I can't remember why I helped you, all I know is I did when I didn't really need to. More fool me.!

Chaz
29-02-2020, 10:28 PM
Chaz gets your fact straight. I never left the forum, circumstances in my life which I won't get into with you, made it so had a long absence. So if you took that or read more into it then that's your problem.


Don't try to make this sound more sinister than it is, and if I'm honest I can't remember why I helped you, all I know is I did when I didn't really need to. More fool me.!

Ill remind you.

Connect the 0-10V output from the CS Labs unit to the Sprint DC control board.

I took the repair cost on the chin, you helped me with information previous to this and after too and made some plates for my Triac. I still have those plates despite having sold the machine as they remind of me the fine work you do.

JAZZCNC
01-03-2020, 06:25 AM
Ill remind you.

Connect the 0-10V output from the CS Labs unit to the Sprint DC control board.

Yes, that was an unfortunate set of regrettable circumstances.
#1 The manual stated the outputs where isolated but didn't mention the Analog outputs where not. Even Gary at Zapp who sold you the controller was unaware of this. They have since changed that.
#2 I'd just retrofitted a Denford machine with a sprint controller using the IP-M which used the same Analog output without any issues, so I'd no reason to doubt yours wouldn't.
#3 You contacted me in the middle of a busy day and I replied without looking further and checking which sprint controller you had.! This I regretted deeply and made me feel like shit when finding out what happened, so much so I contacted Gary to see what could be done, I even offered up the Controller I had just purchased to get you going and was willing to take your old controller after it had been repaired.


I took the repair cost on the chin, you helped me with information previous to this and after too and made some plates for my Triac. I still have those plates despite having sold the machine as they remind of me the fine work you do.

I don't recall the plates but if they were not suitable or as expected all you had to do was say something and I would remake new ones or if that wasn't good enough and I charged you, which knowing me I probably didn't, would have gladly refunded. (I still will refund if that was the case)

Now to be honest I'm stunned how insulting and vitriolic someone could be towards me after I've only ever gone out of my way to help them and countless others, all because I didn't find there attempt at a joke to be funny and showed my dislike.!

I'm done now. Good luck with all that you do.

Chaz
01-03-2020, 10:17 AM
Yes, that was an unfortunate set of regrettable circumstances.
#1 The manual stated the outputs where isolated but didn't mention the Analog outputs where not. Even Gary at Zapp who sold you the controller was unaware of this. They have since changed that.
#2 I'd just retrofitted a Denford machine with a sprint controller using the IP-M which used the same Analog output without any issues, so I'd no reason to doubt yours wouldn't.
#3 You contacted me in the middle of a busy day and I replied without looking further and checking which sprint controller you had.! This I regretted deeply and made me feel like shit when finding out what happened, so much so I contacted Gary to see what could be done, I even offered up the Controller I had just purchased to get you going and was willing to take your old controller after it had been repaired.



I don't recall the plates but if they were not suitable or as expected all you had to do was say something and I would remake new ones or if that wasn't good enough and I charged you, which knowing me I probably didn't, would have gladly refunded. (I still will refund if that was the case)

Now to be honest I'm stunned how insulting and vitriolic someone could be towards me after I've only ever gone out of my way to help them and countless others, all because I didn't find there attempt at a joke to be funny and showed my dislike.!

I'm done now. Good luck with all that you do.

Indeed, the failure was regrettable. My point is, I continued to be a supporter of yours even through an issue like this that was not cheap to fix. I referred people to you, I suggested you when people asked me who they should speak to and on the forum I would often say 'Listen to Jazz, he knows his stuff'.

The plates were good. Its a compliment. The reason why I didnt use them in the end was due to an issue where I gave you the wrong measurements. The machining is impeccable on them.

The reason I 'triggered' was your response to me having some banter with you about the price. It was and remains a tongue in cheek comment. Your response wasnt what I expected and felt like a kick in the nuts.

And like you. I'm done too.

Thank you.

JAZZCNC
20-04-2020, 06:47 PM
Ok well bit of an update and a little twist in the plan.!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlHceUhKTIY

Clive S
20-04-2020, 07:29 PM
Looking good Dean:toot:

JAZZCNC
21-04-2020, 07:21 PM
Some pics of the destruction.

27920 27921 27919 27922

27918 27923 27926

27925 27924 27927

Neale
21-04-2020, 07:31 PM
Dean - you mention running this off single-phase. What kind of spindle motor would that be? It looks like a big, heavy machine so 4KW or so spindle motor? Just curious - no way would it fit my workshop! Interesting to watch the design/component choice/build proces - thanks for letting us watch the thought processes!

JAZZCNC
21-04-2020, 09:00 PM
Dean - you mention running this off single-phase. What kind of spindle motor would that be? It looks like a big, heavy machine so 4KW or so spindle motor? Just curious - no way would it fit my workshop! Interesting to watch the design/component choice/build proces - thanks for letting us watch the thought processes!

It's 7.5Kw/10HP Neale. It will just about run off a single phase but obviously not a 13A supply...Lol
The trick will be finding a VFD that plays nice with this motor and does closed loop.!! . . . I may just have to stick with sensorless Vector drive and feed the encoder back to the controller for ridged tapping and stick with the Wye/Delta to control speed/torque.

Edit: Also under consideration is a Servo Spindle motor.!!

The footprint isn't massive really for this size machine, or it won't be when I've finished. W=1900 D=1700 The height I think will just fit under an 8ft ceiling.
To be honest, If I wanted to get really crazy about it the whole enclosure comes apart and I could make the machine narrower by about 500mm with maybe a slightly less wide door opening but I won't be going to those extremes . . :smiley_simmons:

Uguessedit
26-04-2020, 10:15 PM
I own several Fadals. The cabinets on the back take approx 13-14” however that rear door they made to open to the back which requires approx “24 more space to open. If you have the coolant basin up next and glued to the column like we do then you have to add rear splash guards for the influx of volume rushing down or it goes all over the floor. Our shop is large so we just have a isle behind the machines you can walk and also to store bins of material so it’s not on the floor In front of the machines. I can see with a retrofit that it would be tempting to change it up. We have a bed mill it was easy to flip the control box to the side but adding a tool changer casting arm like Fadal had makes it difficult to put one on each side of the column. The only other choice I see is mounting to the enclosure back side but then if it needs to be moved in the future that’s going to be a issue besides the sheet metal cabinets were not designed for the extra weight. One of our machines a previous owner added bars across the bottom cabinet basin to make it more durable and I suppose so you could stand inside for maintenance but the bigger issue is the small 7/16 fasteners 12” apart or so that attach to the column and if shifted the glue tears and you develop a leak. A nasty leak at that. Frankly by design there isn’t really a better way to do it. Whether you prefer and choose another route it’s clearly your choice but from someone who knows these machines well I would suggest leaving it as is or if you must consider moving the rear facing cabinet so it is mounted on its side, back to back with the side cabinet. It will stick out further but at least you can push the machine up against the wall which would conserve about 16” of additional floor space. The other option is use a different shaped cabinet (more$$) and all new components that are not as large. Not sure if you plan to reuse the inverter drive or transformer but that would cost more for little space saved. Perhaps if you went to a servo driven spindle you could save a lot of space since the control is much smaller. It could be a trade off in torque but higher rpm may offset that need depending on materials your cutting. Our Fanuc robodrills can machine much faster than the fadals and they use servo motors directly coupled on the spindle at a much higher rpm. A few choices you have it will be interesting to see what you do.


Ok well bit of an update and a little twist in the plan.!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlHceUhKTIY

Uguessedit
26-04-2020, 10:21 PM
Just saw your last post. You may want to check with automation direct they have sensored vector drives but I don’t know if the size you need will operate on single phase. If it does you would likely need to go with a larger vector drive to fit your needs. Also you could compare it to buying a servo motor and drive package from a AliExpress vendor I’m certain I’ve seen them in the 7.5 to 10hp range with 15,000rpm Complete package for around $2,000usd. I suspect any good parts you’ve taken off should fetch enough to offset the cost of your build.

Uguessedit
26-04-2020, 10:26 PM
You’d have to ask about voltage needs but this is one of those I was talking about. Pretty certain again that I talked to these folks or another party and they could make changes for voltage by request. They 15kw were the $2,000 models. With a bt or cat 40 if you can fit it that would be ideal torque given the rpm suits your needs.

US $1,148.00 | high performance 380V 48Nm 7.5kw spindle servo motor with drive SZGH-S4T5P5
https://a.aliexpress.com/_d6zXpk1

JAZZCNC
26-04-2020, 11:32 PM
Just saw your last post. You may want to check with automation direct they have sensored vector drives but I don’t know if the size you need will operate on single phase. If it does you would likely need to go with a larger vector drive to fit your needs. Also you could compare it to buying a servo motor and drive package from a AliExpress vendor I’m certain I’ve seen them in the 7.5 to 10hp range with 15,000rpm Complete package for around $2,000usd. I suspect any good parts you’ve taken off should fetch enough to offset the cost of your build.

Hi,
Yes, I've seen and considered those Servo motor packages. To be honest, there's nothing wrong with the AMC Drive or Baldor Spindle it's just the 3 phase I'm trying to get away from, but that might not be so easy to do and keep all the power it currently has.

The plan is to remove the DC motors and drives which all work, only the Z-axis card is faulty. I think some of the control cards have gone down which is why I've pulled it apart, it's just not worth replacing Axis and Control cards without knowing 100% if that's all that's wrong.

When I've fully decided which route I'm taking then I'll make a list of what I'm selling. Currently, it's looking like Delta AC servos with either a Centroid OAK controller or a Chinese GSK controller. So I'll have pretty much everything that's inside a Fadal and the Monitor, keyboard, etc in the control panel, Plus the Fadal VH65 4th axis with full wiring harness and drive plus axis card. So like you say it should go a long way to offset some of the costs, provided I can find buyers.!

I'm still sat on the fence regards the spindle.!!

JAZZCNC
08-05-2020, 11:00 AM
Ok another small update, Spindle motor off ready for clean up or replacement with Servo Spindle motor.?

I needed to measure shaft length, diameter plus find bolt spacing because I'm considering fitting a 10,000rpm 11Kw Servo Spindle so needed this info, which I could probably have found from Fadal spec sheets if honest but I wanted to get in there and give it a good clean up and check belt condition, etc. Which is like brand new.

With the belt off, I can now feel and check the spindle bearings and balance, both of which are perfect I'm pleased to say.

As you can see nothing on this machine is lightweight so it's a bloody good job I've got a fork truck because I wouldn't fancy humping that big lump down from up there.!!

28071 28072 28073

JAZZCNC
20-05-2020, 11:20 PM
Another update. So it's been decided as to what's going into and onto this machine now and just tonight I've hit the Go button.

So it's a full conversion using Controller and Motors Etc from Shenzhen Guanhong Automation CO.,LTD (SZGH) in China, including swapping out the Spindle motor for a Custom built Servo Spindle and Drive.

I must say the people at SZGH have been amazing with replys and answering all my many questions. They have bent over backwards to help and are custom building the spindle motor to suit this conversion. All the manuals they have provided are very good with minimal Chinglish.
Both the Engineers and the admin girl I've been dealing with have replied with perfect english and answered every question very quickly. The Engineers clearly know what they are doing and have been very helpful answering technical questions and giving good suggestions going above and beyond to help with the conversion. Any fears I had on the technical backup with it being a Chinese controller have been laid to rest these last few days.

So the finalised spec is this.
4 Axis 1000MDc high performance(ATC & PLC support) Absolute Controller with Type C control panel.
https://www.szghauto.com/product/64.html

7.5Kw (48Nm) 12,000rpm Servo Spindle and Drive. Based on this but higher RPM with custom machined shaft to Fit Fadal Pulley.
https://www.szghauto.com/product/114.html
https://www.szghauto.com/product/125.html

1.5Kw 130mm AC servos with Japanese Tamagawa-Seike 23bit Absolute encoders. With Matching AC drives.
https://www.szghauto.com/product/156.html
https://www.szghauto.com/product/141.html

Along with all cables I/O and Relays boards, brake resistor for spindle etc and they even through in a nice MPG pendant FOC.

The price was amazing coming in just over £4k delivered to my door. This is plus VAT but I can claim that back.
That's a lot of serious stuff for that price so lets see what happens when it lands.?

pippin88
22-05-2020, 08:10 AM
I'm interested in how you find them.

At some point I'll be looking at 3x750w servos and probably a spindle servo.

Have been considering Delta.

Always good to have multiple options.

Did they give you a pricelist? Any idea how much for a 750W? Or how much each 1.5kw is costing?

JAZZCNC
22-05-2020, 08:51 AM
I'm interested in how you find them.

At some point I'll be looking at 3x750w servos and probably a spindle servo.

Have been considering Delta.

Always good to have multiple options.

Did they give you a pricelist? Any idea how much for a 750W? Or how much each 1.5kw is costing?

No price list but I have got the prices. $369 per set but those are for Absolute drives with upgraded 23Bit Japanese Encoders and all the cables etc which are more expensive than standard cables due to the fact the have Battery backup built into them for the absolute system.

The Company is great and I'm really impressed with them so far. They have setup a what's App group so I'm dealing directly with the engineers who are quick to reply and who are asking me questions regards ATC setup etc. So looking good so far.

Muzzer
22-05-2020, 11:59 AM
That looks like a great set of components. Proper Tamagawa resolvers and closed loop (to the controller) should give decent performance! And as you say, great value for money.

I have the 990MDCa (non absolute model, lower spec controller) that is also supplied by SZGH. However, mine came from Newker and I have to say it's been the very devil's own job trying to work out WTF their Chinglish manual was trying to say. It even got to the point where I machine translated the Chinese manual myself in desperation. Newker (and Newkye, different company) didn't seem to have anyone who could speak much better than their manuals were translated. I might have been better going with SZGH but I wasn't to know. In the end, I replaced it with an Acorn on my Shizuoka and moved the Newker onto my smaller Bridgeport machine. It's clearly quite a capable controller but has taken a lot of reverse engineering (aka trial and error) to figure out how to use some of the features. I had to rewrite the tool length offset and WCS measurement macros to get them to work on my machine and generate usable (English!) status messages.

I'm not sure exactly how these controllers came about. Newker, Newkye and SZGH are located in completely different parts of China yet physically their 990 models look identical. Note that the firmware is subtly different, so I can tell you that mistakenly reading one company's manual while trying to program another's controller doesn't end well and they aren't prepared to support each other's products(!). I paid about £300 for my 4 axis version when I was working in China but I don't think that saved me a lot of money in the end.

I'll be interested to see how this works out. In the meantime, I've taken a look at the 1000MDC manual and it is recognisable in general format but does at least look a bit more readable than what I was up against with the 990. However, there will still be some learning to be done while you get your head around how it is organised and what some of the Chinglish words actually mean. It's good to know you have a responsive team at SZGH - hopefully extending beyond the pre-sale period. This should be a fine machine when it's done!

JAZZCNC
22-05-2020, 12:50 PM
I'll be interested to see how this works out. In the meantime, I've taken a look at the 1000MDC manual and it is recognisable in general format but does at least look a bit more readable than what I was up against with the 990. However, there will still be some learning to be done while you get your head around how it is organised and what some of the Chinglish words actually mean. It's good to know you have a responsive team at SZGH - hopefully extending beyond the pre-sale period. This should be a fine machine when it's done!

Yes I've done a lot of researching and looking around at these and all the other controllers and all the feed back relating to SZGH was mostly positive. The manual I have here is probably the best Chinese manual I've seen, I've been dealing with the Chinese a long time so I'm very fluent in Chinglish and to be fair I've got an ABB VFD manual here that is harder to read than this, mostly because it's overly technical.!! . . .There's nothing in it I don't understand in principle then I'm hoping it's just a case of feeling my way around the controller learning what's what.!

Regards the Service then it's out standing so far. Just today they set up a direct What's App link with the engineer who is setting up and dealing with the whole project.
He's asking me about the ATC so that is all setup and it will just be a case of tweaking timings, position parameters etc and now I've thrown the rotary 4Th axis in to the mix as well he'll be setting that up as well.
None of this was any trouble He's offering good advise regards the Servo spindle, asking for pictures of the machine to get a feel for the conversion etc.
I asked for the Key way to made to match the existing pully which to be fair I thought was a little skinny at 6.35mm(1/4") given the power and he's suggested unprompted not to do that because this new spindle is more powerful with higher speed so go with standard 10mm key way and I agree.

From my dealings so far I don't think they will ignore any questions regards after sale and while I fully expect to have reasonably large learning curve and possibly the odd head bashing session I'm quite happy and reassured so far that it will work out ok... Time will tell.??

JAZZCNC
25-05-2020, 08:29 PM
Another small update: After further investigation of the 4th axis it seems I can remove the DC motor and replace with an absolute AC Servo to match the others, only 750W instead of 1.5Kw.

The old motor was a round flange type and the new ones are square but it's simply case of drilling a few more holes and tapping into to the existing plate. There is a seal on the plate that motor shaft goes thru and the pinion gear clamps onto the shaft using a collet type system. SZGH are making the shaft to fit the seal and pinion.

So when done it will back to all it's glory using the factory fitted 4th axis slimmed down with a nice shiny new controller, some extra grunt in the motors and spindle.!!! . . . . Well that's the dream anyway so lets see what reality delivers...:cower: :cower: :hysterical:

28201

28202

Colin Barron
07-06-2020, 10:22 AM
Another small update: After further investigation of the 4th axis it seems I can remove the DC motor and replace with an absolute AC Servo to match the others, only 750W instead of 1.5Kw.

The old motor was a round flange type and the new ones are square but it's simply case of drilling a few more holes and tapping into to the existing plate. There is a seal on the plate that motor shaft goes thru and the pinion gear clamps onto the shaft using a collet type system. SZGH are making the shaft to fit the seal and pinion.

So when done it will back to all it's glory using the factory fitted 4th axis slimmed down with a nice shiny new controller, some extra grunt in the motors and spindle.!!! . . . . Well that's the dream anyway so lets see what reality delivers...:cower: :cower: :hysterical:

28201

28202

Hi, did you look at the GSK controllers that are more expensive but appear to be the make that is copied by the rest of the market? It is comforting to hear SZGH are helpful.

JAZZCNC
07-06-2020, 10:57 AM
Hi, did you look at the GSK controllers that are more expensive but appear to be the make that is copied by the rest of the market? It is comforting to hear SZGH are helpful.

Yes Colin I did. I've looked at all the main controllers from China and Taiwan and just for fun n giggles some of the well-known brands like Siemens.

I contacted GSK directly asking questions and requesting manuals also a quote or the name of a supplier but didn't get a reply. So contacted a third party supplier who gave me a quote that was 3x the price of SZGH, couldn't answer my questions and sent me the manual for Lathe controller.!. . .

SZGH has been fantastic so far. Virtually instant reply's (within their working hours) both with Girl who is supervising the order and the engineer. Should see it go out the door this week so hopefully not that long before lands at my door..:yahoo:

Colin Barron
27-06-2020, 10:41 PM
Any sign of new toys from China?

JAZZCNC
28-06-2020, 09:06 AM
Any sign of new toys from China?

It's shipping tomorrow hopefully, the Spindle motor and one of the servos was a special build so that's why been a delay.

JAZZCNC
07-07-2020, 03:28 PM
Any sign of new toys from China?

Here you go Colin told you it was shipping last Monday but was actually a Tuesday when it left and arrived yesterday. Shenzen, China to Goole, England in 6 days not bad hey.!!
SZGH have been and still are being nothing but helpful so far cannot fault them in any way. The quality of the components is just as expected and better in some cases with nothing that leaves me feeling in any way disappointed.

28552

Did a video showing what's come, not exactly an unboxing video more just checking out what's arrived.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qbI7Oi9UW8

Muzzer
07-07-2020, 06:28 PM
Wow that's looking good. Tantalising for you!

Colin Barron
07-07-2020, 07:29 PM
Christmas has come early.

Colin Barron
16-07-2020, 08:58 PM
Yes I've done a lot of researching and looking around at these and all the other controllers and all the feed back relating to SZGH was mostly positive. The manual I have here is probably the best Chinese manual I've seen, I've been dealing with the Chinese a long time so I'm very fluent in Chinglish and to be fair I've got an ABB VFD manual here that is harder to read than this, mostly because it's overly technical.!! . . .There's nothing in it I don't understand in principle then I'm hoping it's just a case of feeling my way around the controller learning what's what.!

Regards the Service then it's out standing so far. Just today they set up a direct What's App link with the engineer who is setting up and dealing with the whole project.
He's asking me about the ATC so that is all setup and it will just be a case of tweaking timings, position parameters etc and now I've thrown the rotary 4Th axis in to the mix as well he'll be setting that up as well.
None of this was any trouble He's offering good advise regards the Servo spindle, asking for pictures of the machine to get a feel for the conversion etc.
I asked for the Key way to made to match the existing pully which to be fair I thought was a little skinny at 6.35mm(1/4") given the power and he's suggested unprompted not to do that because this new spindle is more powerful with higher speed so go with standard 10mm key way and I agree.

From my dealings so far I don't think they will ignore any questions regards after sale and while I fully expect to have reasonably large learning curve and possibly the odd head bashing session I'm quite happy and reassured so far that it will work out ok... Time will tell.??

I think the main thing would be to blue the shaft to check the angles on the shaft and pulley are the same (assuming the pulley is tapered). SZGH are keen for business as you say, usually same or next day for information or quotes.

JAZZCNC
16-07-2020, 10:37 PM
I think the main thing would be to blue the shaft to check the angles on the shaft and pulley are the same (assuming the pulley is tapered).

I already checked this before ordering and the pulley isn't tapered, neither is the shaft.

Colin Barron
03-08-2020, 05:33 PM
I am in the process of buying a controller similar to the on you have purchased, but mine will be for a lathe and use stepper drives.
When i asked Eileen about panel c with the MPG she said it could not be used at the same time as the hand MPG. I tried to rephrase it but got the same reply.
Did you confirm that there was some way the hand MPG option could be used? Is it possible to buy a machine cabinet socket to connect to the panel, and plug the mpg into that socket?
Thanks
Colin

JAZZCNC
03-08-2020, 10:50 PM
I am in the process of buying a controller similar to the on you have purchased, but mine will be for a lathe and use stepper drives.
When i asked Eileen about panel c with the MPG she said it could not be used at the same time as the hand MPG. I tried to rephrase it but got the same reply.
Did you confirm that there was some way the hand MPG option could be used? Is it possible to buy a machine cabinet socket to connect to the panel, and plug the mpg into that socket?
Thanks
Colin

Hi Colin,

My Manual says it can use Both at the same time but I've not tried it yet and it may be different for Lathe.? I've just set the controller up on the bench and I'll be posting a vid soon and then will post more as I get time.
I'll try to find time to plug the pendant and test it for you.

Regards the Mains Voltage on the Front panel you mentioned in your PM (sorry i forgot to reply) there isn't any mains voltage on the panel other than the 24V psu. The Start/stop buttons are not connected to anything and I will using these to control contactors etc with 24Vdc so No mains voltage will be on the panel.

JAZZCNC
03-08-2020, 11:06 PM
Just a quick update Vid of it on the bench for testing. If people are interested I'll post more Vids.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4d9n-FGy5o

Colin Barron
04-08-2020, 08:55 AM
Hi Colin,

My Manual says it can use Both at the same time but I've not tried it yet and it may be different for Lathe.? I've just set the controller up on the bench and I'll be posting a vid soon and then will post more as I get time.
I'll try to find time to plug the pendant and test it for you.

Regards the Mains Voltage on the Front panel you mentioned in your PM (sorry i forgot to reply) there isn't any mains voltage on the panel other than the 24V psu. The Start/stop buttons are not connected to anything and I will using these to control contactors etc with 24Vdc so No mains voltage will be on the panel.

Hi, i should have realised that the panel is 24v, he must have been referring to other machine buttons. I asked the question again about the MPG and as you say it can be used. Very interesting setup video.
Thanks
Colin

JAZZCNC
04-08-2020, 06:49 PM
Hi, i should have realised that the panel is 24v, he must have been referring to other machine buttons.

I think Hood was talking about how the Chinese show to wire it in the manual.?

JAZZCNC
08-08-2020, 12:15 AM
Another video that will make you laugh at my Stupidity...:whistle::stupid:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3FCu2x5Gs4

Doddy
08-08-2020, 06:32 AM
In fairness, the position of the ESC/ENT keys is a HMI disaster (and lack of secondary confirmation) - blame the designer (and the beer!)

Muzzer
08-08-2020, 01:27 PM
Funny, I managed to erase some of the original files on my Newker controller. I think they were just example files but I was confused by the strong Chinglish. I now have backups of the settings.

My docs didn't specify the password, which was NEWNEW and KERKER for the Newker controller. Took a while to find that out.

I'd like to be able to use the pendent MPG with the control panel. Currently it's one or the other on mine, so looking forward to seeing how you do that, as there are strong similarities amongst the various Chinesium controllers. The manual is unfathomable on that.

Good to get a whole day's 1-1 workshop with one of their guys. I could have done with that. Definitely a recommendation for SZGH!

You can't get Youtube in China, so they won't know / see what you are posting. But it seems they are doing a great job supporting you.

franky
13-11-2020, 10:48 PM
How are you getting on?

JAZZCNC
13-11-2020, 10:55 PM
How are you getting on?

It's in Hold at the minute, between covid and other work commitments I just don't have the time to work on it. I'm hoping to get back on it early in the new year.

JAZZCNC
10-04-2022, 06:02 PM
Had a few emails asking how I'm going with this and the controller so thought I'd do a few videos to show the progress or more the point the tangent it's gone off at.?



https://youtu.be/ADLD_1G8OYU


https://youtu.be/j_8qWsoTh-M