Losing steps/position, again

[ngwagwa]

First had this problem in January on a Denford Microrouter driven by Mach3.. http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13372-Weird-noise-on-travel-and-losing-position

Replacing the BOB fixed the problem last time (or so I thought) but now it is back. The router has been in use about 8 hours a day 6 days a week since replacing the BOB. A few weeks ago the X,Y&Z just stopped mid cut with the spindle still running (spindle is controlled via a plugin) pressed the cycle start and the program ran fine. All appeared to be well until last week when it started losing steps again on all axis but more noticable on X.

The fault is now present all the time except every now and then after turning everything on I can sometime jog smoothly for a few minutes before it shows. All connections to the BOB checked and the power supply is a constant 24volts. Nothing has been changed or moved and there is nothing else running in the workshop. The only other thing I can add is that since the fault has returned

After searching the forum for a day the only pertinent commet I can find is one left by JAZZCNC
Bob's are sneaky bastards they trick you into thinking they are fine so you go round in circles chasing other things but then you end up back at the BOb and soon has you change them out every thing works fine.!

So would I be better off investing in a better BOB, and if so which one? This is what is in there now
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/1.jpg

[JAZZCNC]

That still holds true but there are things you need to check and procedures to go through before you condemn the BOB.

If it's just missed steps while in use and not when things turn on like Vacuum or Spindle etc, which could be electrical noise, the first thing to check is the mechanicals.
It doesn't take much binding to stall a small stepper motor when rapidly moving from position to position so if you have a sticky axis this could be the cause. Try to take note which axis loses steps and whereabouts in the Job it loses steps, ie: Rapid moves, etc.

If the mechanicals is good then it could be that you just have it over tuned and it's close to the edge where torque drops away, but only on certain moves like rapid moves.
An easy test is to just lower the velocity in motor tuning slightly and see if it still loses steps.

What is the velocity and acceleration in Motor tuning for each Axis.?

I would check out the mechanicals first before doing anything else.

[ngwagwa]

Cheers,

No vac on and tested today without power to VFD so I think I can rule that out.

As it is losing steps in all directions (though X is most noticable) I am tempted to also rule out mechanical binding?

I will look at the velocity and acceleration tomorrow and post settings/results.

[JAZZCNC]

As it is losing steps in all directions (though X is most noticable) I am tempted to also rule out mechanical binding?

It would be a mistake not to check it out.

What machine is it again.?

[ngwagwa]

Denford Microrouter.

Last time it was faulty I did clean all the nuts but it was only when I fitted a new BOB that it stopped knocking and losing steps.

I have just been over to the workshop and regarding the velocity and acceleration settings X and Y were set at 3000 and 150. When first turned on (lo and behold) the machine jogged several times along X with no knocking. Set them to V=1000 and A=50 was knocking when jogged, Also tried 500 and 20 still knocking.

[dazp1976]

I had a PC that would knock / lose steps on every 360 degree rotation of the screw on every axis.
I re-installed windows and the issue was gone.

It was an error with NT driver in windows that came up every so often.

[ngwagwa]

I had a PC that would knock / lose steps on every 360 degree rotation of the screw on every axis.
I re-installed windows and the issue was gone.

It was an error with NT driver in windows that came up every so often.

When I first had this fault I did try a completely different PC and it didn't solve the issue. On the other hand if the problem was as consistant as yours it may be easier to solve.

[JAZZCNC]

Maybe worth taking a video because missed steps don't really knock.? A knocking would certainly make me think mechanical.

[ngwagwa]

This is the knocking noise https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/Xaxis.m4a

[JAZZCNC]

This is the knocking noise https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/Xaxis.m4a

That's not missed steps. It could be something electrical or computer related with parallel port causing problems with the pulses, possibly? However, the first place I'd start is with Motor and pulley couplings, belts etc and checking out the mechanicals.

[Kitwn]

The fault is now present all the time except every now and then after turning everything on I can sometime jog smoothly for a few minutes before it shows.

Is anything getting hotter than it used to? Have you dusted the PC processor heatsink and fan lately?

[ngwagwa]

[QUOTE=JAZZCNC;115603]It would be a mistake not to check it out.

BINGO and thanks to JAZZCNC. Disconnected the drives nuts and jogged for about 10 minutes with no knocking noises, gave them a liberal spray of silicone lubricant, reassembled and all seems sweet.

So, is it possible to replace the stepper motor with one with a bit more gut? I can't see any markings on the current ones.

[JAZZCNC]

[QUOTE=JAZZCNC;115603]It would be a mistake not to check it out.

BINGO and thanks to JAZZCNC. Disconnected the drives nuts and jogged for about 10 minutes with no knocking noises, gave them a liberal spray of silicone lubricant, reassembled and all seems sweet.

So, is it possible to replace the stepper motor with one with a bit more gut? I can't see any markings on the current ones.

Great glad your sorted.

Regards changing the steppers then often with these machnes if using original boards then it's not the steppers that are weak it's the fact they are run with low voltage drives, usualy between 30-40Vdc depending on model. Changing the steppers alone won't make any difference because the drives and voltage are the weak link.

Are you using the original drives etc that came with the machine.?

[ngwagwa]

Hi, The control box is a right jungle but as far as I can see the original drivers are used for X,Y&Z and there is an additional HY-DIV268N-5A for the 4th AXIS. As I am not using the 4th axis could I try using that driver?

[JAZZCNC]

Hi, The control box is a right jungle but as far as I can see the original drivers are used for X,Y&Z and there is an additional HY-DIV268N-5A for the 4th AXIS. As I am not using the 4th axis could I try using that driver?

Won't make much difference if you haven't got the volts to go with it. Volts are what give steppers there speed.

To be honest without knowing more about what's inside I'm relutant to advise any more and suggest until you know exactly what you have and the voltages you have that you don't go messing about because it's very easy to kill these boards.

Based on expereince of these machines I think you'll find the only way to get them to go faster and be reliable is a full retro-fit with new drives, psu and motion controller the motors you can usually keep. When this is done it transforms the machine to another level, but it costs money.

[ngwagwa]

Am I correct that a retro-fit would mean a new motion cotroller, PSU and 3 new drivers and if this is the case could I (for the time being) just use a new driver on the X Axis and use two HY-DIV268N-5A drivers for Y and Z?

[JAZZCNC]

Am I correct that a retro-fit would mean a new motion cotroller, PSU and 3 new drivers and if this is the case could I (for the time being) just use a new driver on the X Axis and use two HY-DIV268N-5A drivers for Y and Z?

Yes for the best effect a full refit is required. However like I said before it's the volts that give you the speed and with those drives, you have a maximum of 48v. However, they are rubbish TB based drives and if you run them anywhere near 48v they will die quickly so you are going to be limited to around 40vdc to be safe.

You need to test the voltage the drives are running at now to get an idea of what will work best. If you do buy new drives then go for something better than those you have. Digital drives are cheap now and can be found for around £40. They will outperform those drives by a large margin and be much smoother and more reliable.

Also using an Ethernet-based motion controller will make a massive difference to how the machine performs compared to the parallel port. When combined with Digital drives running with a voltage around 56Vdc the performance compared to the standard machine will blow your mind.
I converted what I think is the exact same machine(using original steppers) and it would easily reach 15Mtr/min rapid speeds but was derated to 10mmtr/min for use and will cut at those feeds if required. It's been running flawlessly for nearly 3yrs and is used every day to make molds etc.

You really do get what you pay for, so if you want the best save up and dump the rubbish your using now.

[ngwagwa]

Well, having just been browsing I was looking at Ethernet (as it is one thing I understand)

My spindle is controlled via a serial port and a plug-in so that is one thing I don't need to worry about.

Saving up is not an option as having the router misbehave is costing me money, so having just spoken to my pension provider it is time to start planning.

By my reckoning I need:
1) an Ethernet based motion controller
2) a connection block and cable to the controller
3) PSU
4) 3 drivers

Mount all these on a board, (now it gets tricky) connect the outputs from the current drivers and the limit switches/probe switch to '#2. Rip out everything from the control box and install the new setup.

[ngwagwa]

I have just had my head in the control box and I can't see anything that may be the drivers for X,Y and Z. It looks like the guy that converted it to mach3 thought the easiest way was to hang an old plastic kitchen chopping board to mount the new BOB on right in front of the original control board.I will just have to wing it and make sure I find the stepper motor leads when I remove the existing circuitry.

After spending last night looking at possible options I am drawn to an AXBB-E Ethernet motion controller and breakout board combined controller as includes a BOB plus it is in stock at https://www.stoneycnc.com/axbb-e-ethernet-motion-controller-and-breakout-board-combined-controller/a4753?c=3479.

Can you suggest suitable drivers and PSU?

[dazp1976]

If I did it again I would get drivers that are rated upto 80Vac/110vdc and use a 70Vac toroidal transformer.
Something like a 2*35vac secondary outputs wired in series for 70vac.
Doesn't matter wether you have Nema 17/ 23/ 34size motors etc, the drivers regulate output voltage to the motors themselves.

For the bb-e it needs 5v and 24v. Could use either voltage stepdowns from the toroidal or seperate switched psu's. Depending on how many relays you have will determine what amp rating they will ideally need to be.

[ngwagwa]

Would this be suitable for the transformer? https://cpc.farnell.com/multicomp/mcta300-35/300va-toroidal-2x35v/dp/FF01575?st=toroidal%20transformer
Is that all I would need?

You will have to forgive my ignorance as I have an nane fear of magic blue smoke.

Can you suggest any suitable drivers preferably available in the UK? I did find these https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-6.0A,-80V-CNC-Microstepping-CW8060

I will be using the existing 5 and 24V transformers.to power the bb-e

[JAZZCNC]

If I did it again I would get drivers that are rated upto 80Vac/110vdc and use a 70Vac toroidal transformer.
Something like a 2*35vac secondary outputs wired in series for 70vac.
Doesn't matter wether you have Nema 17/ 23/ 34size motors etc, the drivers regulate output voltage to the motors themselves.

That's WRONG information your giving out, the drives don't regulate the voltage they regulate the current. 70Vac which is 98Vdc would destroy those little motors in no time at all. It would also make them run like a bag of shite.

You cannot stick any voltage you like into a stepper, there is a limit where it starts to have very negative affects. Namely iron losses and motor heating which kills them.

Those Large voltage Ac drives are only really any good for larger steppers Like Nema 34 or very high inductance NEMA 23's. Your typical 3-4Nm 4.2a Nema 23 with 3-4mh inductance doesn't like to be run much more than 80vdc and at that, you are pushing them past there design threshold so are shortening there life.

For the NEMA 23 motors, which this machine will have fitted he'll only need drives with a max rating of 70Vdc and would run them around 55-60Vdc. Or 50Vac drives running at 40-45Vac.

[ngwagwa]

That's WRONG information .......

Thanks - obviously reducing the power I supply will also reduce the initial outlay (as well as havingto replace everything including burnt oout motors).

Could you be so kind as to point me in the right direction for what you would suggest and is there ay advantage with a toroidal transformer (a plug and play box suits me if possible).

Although I have asked elsewhere on this forum have you any reasons why I shouldn't use the AXBB-E motion controller?

[ngwagwa]

whoops post twice

[JAZZCNC]

Would this be suitable for the transformer? https://cpc.farnell.com/multicomp/mcta300-35/300va-toroidal-2x35v/dp/FF01575?st=toroidal%20transformer
Is that all I would need?

You will have to forgive my ignorance as I have an nane fear of magic blue smoke.

Can you suggest any suitable drivers preferably available in the UK? I did find these https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-6.0A,-80V-CNC-Microstepping-CW8060

I will be using the existing 5 and 24V transformers.to power the bb-e

My advise is STOP don't buy a single thing until you have settled on exactly what your fitting or need. Also what you have in the machine already that you can re-use.

Those drives are a little over kill but that won't hurt, however, the advice you have been given regards the drives controlling Voltage is Wrong so ignore it.
Those little motors won't like being run much above 60Vdc so the extra capacity the drives allow you cannot really use, but it's always better to have drives that are under performing than being pushed to there limits.

Regards the transformer then the voltage is about right at 35V giving approx 50Vdc when rectified but the Va rating is a little on the low side, 500Va would be better. 300Va would work for those motors but doesn't leave any room for expansion or larger motors in the future 500Va would.

When you say you have 5 and 24v in the machine are you sure it's DC because if it's the original PSU then they tend to be AC transformer and it gets rectified on the boards for the drives to around 32V.

[ngwagwa]

Hi,

There is a 5v and a 24v transformer which I think are DC (I did take pictures but have left my phone in the workshop), I assume they were fitted when the machine was converted to Mach3 they are certainly not part of the original controller.

My spindle is controlled by a plugin and serial port which I am happy to leave as is.

I would prefer to purchase a PSU as opposed to building one unless there is an advantage going the toroidal route. Regarding your comment on the 300Va being sufficient but no room for expansion could I fit bigger motors if I needed to or would I need to if the new set up get the most out f the current ones?

As to using what I can I was assuming that with a new motion controller, PSU and drives apart from the 5 & 24V transformers everything else would be redundant bar the mains on/off switch.

[JAZZCNC]

Thanks - obviously reducing the power I supply will also reduce the initial outlay (as well as havingto replace everything including burnt oout motors).

Think I've just answered this one in last post but sorry you need larger not smaller for the reason stated below.


Could you be so kind as to point me in the right direction for what you would suggest and is there ay advantage with a toroidal transformer (a plug and play box suits me if possible).

Ok well the advantage with toroidal transformer, when used with capacitors and bridge rectifiers that make up a DC PSU, (yes you need these as well) is that it means you can get away with lower power rating than you would need with a switch-mode supply. You can also build to the exact power requirements you need.

It gets complicated but in a nutshell, let us say you have 4 motors all pulling 4a which means you'd need a 16a for a SWM supply to work reliably and keep up with drives/motors demands when working hard. In practice, the actual rating needed will be higher for reasons I won't get into now. But all this means a Large SWM PSU this size gets expensive quickly.

Whereas a Toroidal/capacitor-based PSU allows you to get away with PSU size only 60% of the motors total draw. It does this by drawing from its bank of capacitors and how the drives work. It also ensures a smoother flow of power because you always have a reserve in the capacitors.
So again, in a Nutshell, yes it's best for these reasons and the fact can size to exact needs and it's often much Cheaper when higher power is needed which is why it's used so much on routers and DIY builds.


Regards the AXBB-E Controller I have never used one personally so I'm not recommending you use it but I do know several people who have used them and are very happy with them. I've fitted several of its Big brother the Uc300ETH and they are also very good so I cannot see these being a bad card. The UCCNC software is also very good so I wouldn't hesitate if it was me.

[JAZZCNC]

There is a 5v and a 24v transformer which I think are DC (I did take pictures but have left my phone in the workshop), I assume they were fitted when the machine was converted to Mach3 they are certainly not part of the original controller..

Ok if that is the case then your sorted. It would be a good idea to post picturs of inside the control box.


My spindle is controlled by a plugin and serial port which I am happy to leave as is.

If you go with the AXBB and UcCNC software then you won't be able to use it and I would use the UcCNC software over Mach3 as it's getting long in the tooth.


I would prefer to purchase a PSU as opposed to building one unless there is an advantage going the toroidal route.

Ok well in that case look for a Unregulated Linear Supply. Gary at Zapp automation used to sell 48Vdc Leadshine Unreg PSU's give him a lookup.


Regarding your comment on the 300Va being sufficient but no room for expansion could I fit bigger motors if I needed to or would I need to if the new set up get the most out f the current ones?

With 300Va then no you would need more current and 300Va limits you to about 8.5A total which could be borderline with some motors, with the current ones you probably won't have any trouble. But if one dies on you then you'll struggle to get the same size and it would be the ideal time to upgrade and 300Va would limit this.




As to using what I can I was assuming that with a new motion controller, PSU and drives apart from the 5 & 24V transformers everything else would be redundant bar the mains on/off switch.

Ermm not really you will still want some safety involved so a few relays will be needed for a hardwired latching E-stop system that safely Kills drives etc and lets the controller know there's been an emergency Stop.

[Doddy]

ngawagwa: Jazz offers some good advice but you still have the problem that down-time is costing you money. From what I read you're still in the "misbehaving" stage and trying to get going? The original Denford electronics were, I understand 24VAC (and only 100VA for the drivers), but you say that somewhere along the line someone has replaced a bunch of stuff with a Mach3 conversion - including a separate 24VDC PSU. It's possible that they've pushed this straight onto the existing Denford card (it is likely to just rectify/smooth this straight onto the drivers and this would work with DC).

I offer the following cautiously, because it's a poor half-way house. If you need to try to get going quickly and don't mind a bit of down time to re-wire, then your original idea of slaving the DIV-268 onto the X-Axis could be sensible - and I can gift you a 200VA/36V SMPS. Yes, it's entirely the wrong PSU, but for a single axis (to test that the concept is right and you that have nothing else going wrong) it could get you going for the very short term. I can even drop you a couple more DIV-268s if they're handy for you (they are not great, but at 36V will out-perform the Denford drivers). That would just be to solidify you're own view as to what your shopping list needs to be and possibly get you back cutting tomorrow (if you don't remember my name - if you recall the vacuum bed? - I'm local). The PSU did, once upon a time, control a Denford star mill.

It's absolutely not an end-solution - I'd agree with the previous sentiments that you need to throw 300-500VA at around 50V at this with a toroid. Your final choice of drivers may allow you a simple direct connection to a transformer (if they support AC supply) and a modern digital driver will outperform the old shite analogues (and I include the DIV-268s amongst those). And you'd need to weigh up the down-time of slaving an axis onto a separate PSU and driver (an hour?) against your productivity. But the offers there.

[ngwagwa]

I will getthe photos tomorrow.

And never thought about the E-stop either but there is at least one relay in there :)

[ngwagwa]

Doddy, that sounds like a decent plan and I will take you up on it. I already have a DIV268 doing nothing so I won't be needing that thanks. It may take e a little longer than an hour as I have no idea where the current X axis is fed from, maybe it will be apparent when I get behind the bits added for the conversion. When would it be convenient to pick up the PSU?
Thanks
Carl

[Doddy]

When would it be convenient to pick up

Sent a PM.

[ngwagwa]

If you go with the AXBB and UcCNC software then you won't be able to use it and I would use the UcCNC software over Mach3 as it's getting long in the tooth.
.


Looks like I can use a plugin to control the VFD http://www.forum.cncdrive.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2041

[ngwagwa]

Pictures of currrent control box - I was wrong I don't appear to have a 5v supply.
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/1a.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/2a.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/3a.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/4a.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/5.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/6.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/7.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/8.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/9.jpg

[Doddy]

You've linked to the same file for each image.

[dazp1976]

That's WRONG information your giving out, the drives don't regulate the voltage they regulate the current. 70Vac which is 98Vdc would destroy those little motors in no time at all. It would also make them run like a bag of shite.

You cannot stick any voltage you like into a stepper, there is a limit where it starts to have very negative affects. Namely iron losses and motor heating which kills them.

Those Large voltage Ac drives are only really any good for larger steppers Like Nema 34 or very high inductance NEMA 23's. Your typical 3-4Nm 4.2a Nema 23 with 3-4mh inductance doesn't like to be run much more than 80vdc and at that, you are pushing them past there design threshold so are shortening there life.

For the NEMA 23 motors, which this machine will have fitted he'll only need drives with a max rating of 70Vdc and would run them around 55-60Vdc. Or 50Vac drives running at 40-45Vac.

Steppers are generally all rated 2-3Vdc yes?. So if said nema 17 / 23 or 34 (2-3Vdc) were put on the same driver why would I only blow the 17? (unless I didn't change the current output).

Also inductance. There are Nema 34's out there that are abysmal running on 60V supplies and ideally need at least 120Vdc to work reliably.

Also there are now drivers on the market with direct 240Vac input connections so no need for psu's anyway. These are aimed at nema17-23 size. Why would these not burn them up either?

I and many others use 60Vdc at least using larger 34 size drivers to run nema17 & 23 size motors. Even that goes against the grain and it's worked for years.

[Doddy]

Um!, no 5V supply to the BoB?, normally people sling a USB lead from the computer to the BoB, and the BoB salvages a 5V supply from that. Or, you can provide a 5V supply to the "PC 5V" supply on the board itself.

Edit: My bad, image 4A shows the BoB has a supply from somewhere.

[dazp1976]

Um!, no 5V supply to the BoB?, normally people sling a USB lead from the computer to the BoB, and the BoB salvages a 5V supply from that. Or, you can provide a 5V supply to the "PC 5V" supply on the board itself.

Edit: My bad, image 4A shows the BoB has a supply from somewhere.

I've got a similar BOB and spotted something too.
If you take your 5v from 'elsewhere' (bottom right of bob) and don't get it through the usb header it bypasses the boards protection circuits!! Caution needed.
It's recommended to use a bare ended usb cable from a psu to the board header in order to both avoid PC usb noise and keep board protection.

[ngwagwa]

Um!, no 5V supply to the BoB?, normally people sling a USB lead from the computer to the BoB, and the BoB salvages a 5V supply from that. Or, you can provide a 5V supply to the "PC 5V" supply on the board itself.

Edit: My bad, image 4A shows the BoB has a supply from somewhere.


I think it is fed from the Baldor board behind it - it's the top red wire

https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/10.jpg

[dazp1976]

I think it is fed from the Baldor board behind it - it's the top red wire

https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/10.jpg

See my previous post on this. I have same board.

[AndyUK]

Steppers are generally all rated 2-3Vdc yes?.

My understanding is that if you give a coil on the stepper the rated voltage (2-3V) it will draw the rated current.

If you give a stepper a higher voltage, the current will also increase and the thing will burn up.

But we're not doing that - we're using stepper drivers. These give the motor the full voltage in "punches" to limit the average current to a set value. Therefore its entirely reasonable that the voltage supplied to the driver is important for the reasons Jazz sets out.

Blanket recommendations are dangerous either way - you need to consider all the factors like the steppers inductance and current limits to determine what will blow and what won't. NEMA 17 or 23 is just a mounting size, and has no real effect on this.

[ngwagwa]

See my previous post on this. I have same board.

Is the 5v feed not to the top right of the BOB?

[Doddy]

It's recommended to use a bare ended usb cable from a psu to the board header in order to both avoid PC usb noise and keep board protection.

Have you a link to this recommendation - I have two identical cards in my machine fed from the local supply so I'm interested if I have a dormant problem or not.

[JAZZCNC]

Steppers are generally all rated 2-3Vdc yes?. So if said nema 17 / 23 or 34 (2-3Vdc) were put on the same driver why would I only blow the 17? (unless I didn't change the current output).

I didn't say it would blow it up, I said it would destroy them and this is true. They couldn't handle the heat and that would kill them eventually depending on voltage.


Also inductance. There are Nema 34's out there that are abysmal running on 60V supplies and ideally need at least 120Vdc to work reliably.

Also there are now drivers on the market with direct 240Vac input connections so no need for psu's anyway. These are aimed at nema17-23 size. Why would these not burn them up either?

You'll find that many of the drives that use 240Vac won't run small motors for the same reason I mentioned before, most don't even limit current below 5a. The drives you speak of which use AC voltage and can run Nema 17/23 use Low AC voltage which you transform down from 230Vac and that gets rectified to DC in the drive.

I fit 230 Vac drives all the time and I can tell you that if I fitted those little motors or nema 17 motors to the drives they would be fried within hours. Even with small (4nm) Nema 34 motors you have to be very careful and make sure you limit current correctly because current it proportional to Voltage and you cannot limit the voltage so they get hot.
This is physics it's not me making shit up and just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean your correct it what your saying. Unless you know it to be true then I suggest you STFU because it's hazardous to components life and even dangerous in some circumstances.


I and many others use 60Vdc at least using larger 34 size drivers to run nema17 & 23 size motors. Even that goes against the grain and it's worked for years.

No it's doesn't go against the grain and it's perfectly acceptable because the voltage is much lower and the motors can handle it. Again physics comes into play and there is an ideal voltage where motors run with-in safe tolerances, most people running more than 60vdc with NEMA 17/23 motors are running past the motor's ideal voltage but only just so it's not a problem. Think of it like overclocking a PC, it works but will shorten the PC's life unless it's cooled better, same shit here.! . . . Running higher than ideal voltages your actually shortening the motors life but who cares because it's going to take years if only 10-20v over but double the rated voltage or more and it won't take long. (unless cooled massively)

[JAZZCNC]

Pictures of currrent control box - I was wrong I don't appear to have a 5v supply.

Can we have a overall pic of the complete box as it will help make things clearer.

[ngwagwa]

https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/11.jpg

I have removed the V5 spindle controller and the driver for the 4th axis.

[JAZZCNC]

Ok looking at that then the original transformer is being used to power the original board at the top. The transformer says 28V (this is AC voltage) which is about right for the drives ending up around 36V when rectified.
The original board will also probably transformer it down to 5V and that's where the BOB is getting it from. Trace the wires from the 5V terminals on the BOB and you'll probably find they route back to this board.

[ngwagwa]

JAZZ - yes the 5v to the BOB is fed from the vertcal 42 pin connector on the Baldor card. I think I would prefer to by a 5v transformer which should then make the Baldor redundant, just have to work out how to do the E-Stop.

I have found the BOB axis controls, they also feed into the 42 pin connector and am looking for the feeds from the board to the steppers (4 found and 2 to go)

[dazp1976]

JAZZ - yes the 5v to the BOB is fed from the vertcal 42 pin connector on the Baldor card. I think I would prefer to by a 5v transformer which should then make the Baldor redundant, just have to work out how to do the E-Stop.

I have found the BOB axis controls, they also feed into the 42 pin connector and am looking for the feeds from the board to the steppers (4 found and 2 to go)

These boards are usually wired as this below. Trace the wiring back just to double check it to be sure.
27750
Shows 5v in on the bottom 3 right connectors. This is likely how it's powered atm.
e-stop P10, limits P12-15, spindle switch+speed all run off the seperate 24v input on the right.

Was at least 5 years ago when I was advised against using the bottom connectors for 5v. Told it's more ideal to modify a usb lead instead due to the protection circuitry.
Trying to re-find information on the net is a pig. :rolleyes:

[JAZZCNC]

JAZZ - yes the 5v to the BOB is fed from the vertcal 42 pin connector on the Baldor card. I think I would prefer to by a 5v transformer which should then make the Baldor redundant, just have to work out how to do the E-Stop.

I have found the BOB axis controls, they also feed into the 42 pin connector and am looking for the feeds from the board to the steppers (4 found and 2 to go)

That should be easy enough just follow wires to steppers. If there was a better picture of the original board i could probably tell you. There will be 4 wires per stepper. So look for blocks of 4wires that will probably be same colour wires.

The E-stop is easy enough and you have relays and contactors in there but first, you will need to find their voltages and what other things you need to control. I see what looks like a spindle Speed controller board so this will need to be incorporated into your wiring and safety etc.

To be honest, if you are going to start again with a new controller and drives then I suggest you trace wires and label them, then rip out everything else in the control box and start afresh. It's often quicker more reliable and less confusing.

If you inventory what you have and find the voltages etc and tell me what controller you are going to use I will happily help you work out a wiring schematic.

[JAZZCNC]

Was at least 5 years ago when I was advised against using the bottom connectors for 5v. Told it's more ideal to modify a usb lead instead due to the protection circuitry.
Trying to re-find information on the net is a pig. :rolleyes:

Not sure I'd trust that information. I wouldn't trust USB for a CNC machine, not even to provide 5V as it's notorious for dropping out. The PSU would be protected by it's own circuitry and if the BOB as protection built into the USB connection which isn't on the 5v terminal then I'd take the risk for the sake of £5. I'd rather have it blow up than keep cutting out thru power dropouts while cutting, Only takes one job and you've lost far more than £5.

[dazp1976]

Not sure I'd trust that information. I wouldn't trust USB for a CNC machine, not even to provide 5V as it's notorious for dropping out. The PSU would be protected by it's own circuitry and if the BOB as protection built into the USB connection which isn't on the 5v terminal then I'd take the risk for the sake of £5. I'd rather have it blow up than keep cutting out thru power dropouts while cutting, Only takes one job and you've lost far more than £5.

It's worked so far taking 5v from a small switched psu into a usb cable. However. I might change it round now you've convinced me on it.
If I can make enough money I'll be swapping to an ess and get a new BoB rated for 200+khz asap for axis control anyway. My current board will go to run spindle/ limits/ estop etc. Well that's once I pluck up the courage to tackle the spindle wiring :rolleyes:

[ngwagwa]

To be honest, if you are going to start again with a new controller and drives then I suggest you trace wires and label them, then rip out everything else in the control box and start afresh. It's often quicker more reliable and less confusing.

If you inventory what you have and find the voltages etc and tell me what controller you are going to use I will happily help you work out a wiring schematic.

Ripping everything out sounds good to me but in the meantime while I get al the bits together I have taken up Doddys offer of a 36V power supply which I want to put on the Z axis to run the machine. I have foud four wires in the controller for the X Axis stepper but the stepper has 6 wires and they arent shown on the Denford wiring diagram for the umbilical connector from controller box to machine.

Here are pics of the 2 relays on the rail:

https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/14.jpg
https://lozharroplures.co.uk/my_images/15.jpg

Much appreciate the offer of a wiring diagram.
I have been speaking to an old friend who is electrical savvy I can use two of the toroidal transformers that I linked to earlier in parallel to get 600Va.
I intend to use an AXBB-E motion controller and UCCNC and the drivers linked to earlier (unless you know any better options)
I have these transformers:
24V 3A
24V 14.6A
12V 2A
And there is an RFI Filter already fitted to the mains input

E-Stop will suffice on the big red button only.

Anything else you need let me know

[Doddy]

Just to be pedantic: You've shown a number of power suppliers - not transformers (there's a subtlety in the wording there). I'd hold onto the 3A PSU for services and sensors, and supplement it with a new toroidal transformer for the drivers. Possibly hold onto the 12V depending on what it's currently used for, but it would make sense to rationalise the cabinet as far as is practicable, if for nothing else other than ease of maintenance). Your friend's suggestion of using two toroidal in parallel - broadly speaking, yes, but you're getting little benefit than using a single big one, unless you already have access to these? (or are looking to increase in future?, possibly just provision for the space of a future toroidal? - might make sense). I'm not quite sold on wiring two transformers in parallel that might have a different manufacturing tolerance - you could end up pumping some power from one transformer into another, but the power involved might be lost in the noise.

Your choice of 36V for the Z? - the original idea was to understand if the increased voltage improved your most susceptible axis. But that's your call and your game - leave you to it. I'd recommend replacing with the BFG toroidal transformer in the future.

Steppers with 6 wires?, measure the resistance between these - three will be (likely) connected to each coil - centre tapped, you probably should connect between the two wires of each three that has the greatest resistance (example you might find A-B = 1.5R, B-C = 1.5R, A-C = 3R, connect to A-C)

[ngwagwa]

Just to be pedantic: You've shown a number of power suppliers - not transformers (there's a subtlety in the wording there). I'd hold onto the 3A PSU for services and sensors, and supplement it with a new toroidal transformer for the drivers. Possibly hold onto the 12V depending on what it's currently used for, but it would make sense to rationalise the cabinet as far as is practicable, if for nothing else other than ease of maintenance). Your friend's suggestion of using two toroidal in parallel - broadly speaking, yes, but you're getting little benefit than using a single big one, unless you already have access to these? (or are looking to increase in future?, possibly just provision for the space of a future toroidal? - might make sense). I'm not quite sold on wiring two transformers in parallel that might have a different manufacturing tolerance - you could end up pumping some power from one transformer into another, but the power involved might be lost in the noise.

Your choice of 36V for the Z? - the original idea was to understand if the increased voltage improved your most susceptible axis. But that's your call and your game - leave you to it. I'd recommend replacing with the BFG toroidal transformer in the future.

Steppers with 6 wires?, measure the resistance between these - three will be (likely) connected to each coil - centre tapped, you probably should connect between the two wires of each three that has the greatest resistance (example you might find A-B = 1.5R, B-C = 1.5R, A-C = 3R, connect to A-C)

Sorry for the incorrect terminology. I won't be throwing anything away and the 12V was for the V5 Spindle controller which isn't used.
Z was a typo should have been X

I have discovered the coils are centre tapped and I know which are which, my problem now is finding out where the tap leads go to.

[JAZZCNC]

I have discovered the coils are centre tapped and I know which are which, my problem now is finding out where the tap leads go to.

They don't go anywhere just terminate them so can't short.

[ngwagwa]

Doddy - I was advised using two identical toroidals in parallel would be OK if they were identical units but warend against using different suppliers/models. I was looking at going that way as I have been unable to find a single unit with the required output - have you any suggestions?

[ngwagwa]

They don't go anywhere just terminate them so can't short.

On the machine side I can't get to them inside the cabinet (short of cutting them where they enter the stepper). According to the Denford documentation they do not connect to the umbilical. I will look if I can see them on the underside of the machine tomorrow.
Just before I left the workshop I was reading somewhere that was saying depending what you do with the tap wires will give more speed or more torque but I can't seem to find it now, my . laptop must be as forgetful as me.

[Doddy]

Doddy - I was advised using two identical toroidals in parallel would be OK if they were identical units but warend against using different suppliers/models. I was looking at going that way as I have been unable to find a single unit with the required output - have you any suggestions?

Sound advice from your mate.

The 2x35V transformer that you linked suffers from being in no-mans land - wiring the secondaries in series will generate a DC terminal voltage of around 100V (outside of the range of the majority of stepper drivers and too high for the small steppers on the denford). In parallel they'd through out about 50V - too much for the cheap nasty stepper drivers and too low to exploit a decent digital driver effectively. It'd work, but it's not in the Goldilocks zone.

Personally, if I was looking at CPC then I'd look at their 2x25V options (e.g. https://cpc.farnell.com/multicomp/mcta300-25/300va-toroidal-2x25v/dp/FF01573?st=toroidal%20transformer) - wiring the secondaries in series to generate a 50VAC/70V pk DC terminal voltage for an 80V drive. Personally, I think 300VA would be sufficient but note the previous advice of giving yourself headroom with a 500w should you need to grow. Or parallel similar as your mate suggested.

BUT, much depends on your choice of stepper driver. That's really your first decision point before speccing the transformer.

[ngwagwa]

BUT, much depends on your choice of stepper driver. That's really your first decision point before speccing the transformer.

I was considering these drivers https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-6.0A,-80V-CNC-Microstepping-CW8060 JAZZ said they were overkill but would do. If you can suggest a better driver I am open to advice bearing in mind an earlier comment by JAZZ that if I needed to replace a stepper in the future it would likely need more power (or words to that effect).

Also would these be right for use on your suggested toroidal transformer?
https://cpc.farnell.com/on-semiconductor/gbpc3504/bridge-rectifier-35a-400v/dp/SC07524?ost=SC07524&ddkey=https%3Aen-CPC%2FCPC_United_Kingdom%2Fsearch
and 4 of these in parallel
https://cpc.farnell.com/multicomp/mcrh100v337m16x26/capacitor-105c-330uf-100v/dp/CA04699?st=capacitor

[dazp1976]

Your choice of 36V for the Z? - the original idea was to understand if the increased voltage improved your most susceptible axis. But that's your call and your game - leave you to it. I'd recommend replacing with the BFG toroidal transformer in the future.
)

My thoughts too.
Look at the inductance level on the steppers. Square root the figure and then multiply by 32.
This will give you your ideal voltage for the steppers to sing.

For example an inductance of 3.5mh= 3.5 Sqrt *32 = 59V!!
Inductance of 2.5mh= 2.5 sqrt*32 = 50V!!
Inductance of 8mh= 8 sqrt*32 = 90.5V!!
See where I'm going with this?

You'll find 36V with nema23 size motors is a bit of a dissapointment. You want at least 48V.

[ngwagwa]

M

You'll find 36V with nema23 size motors is a bit of a dissapointment. You want at least 48V.

Daz you seem to have missed a few of the posts. The 36V was/is only intended as a test/stop gap measure

[JAZZCNC]

Inductance of 8mh= 8 sqrt*32 = 90.5V!!
See where I'm going with this?

Ye, I see it as well and now go find me a typical low Nm nema17 or 23 with an inductance of 8Mh.! . . . . Doesn't matter how you want to try to spin it, you can't put 100v on a small stepper and expect it to last long. Put 240V on it and watch what happens to it. (In fact I think I have some small motors kicking around and a mains 240V drive, so when I get back to work I'll show you exactly what happens!)

If you don't believe me then go read the rest of the Gecko info where you got those figures from and read what Maris Fremanis the Owner of Gecko as to say about it and the effects of having too high a voltage.!

I know you probably didn't like me pulling you up on what you said, but it was wrong and misleading so it could quite easily end up in someone burning their house down if they listened to your wrong advice. That's why it needed pointing out and why you need to watch what you say unless known to be absolutely correct.

[ngwagwa]

Found what may be a suitable transformer 36+36v and 625va

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/chassis-mounting-toroidal-transformer-standard-range-cm0625236

[Clive S]

Found what may be a suitable transformer 36+36v and 625va

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/chassis-mounting-toroidal-transformer-standard-range-cm0625236

That is a good company. Before you buy it. state what final output voltage AC or DC you are trying to achieve and with what drives you will be using.

Personally I think 625va is a bit overkill . I use 4 nema 23 3.1Nm on my router with 500Va

[JAZZCNC]

Found what may be a suitable transformer 36+36v and 625va

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/chassis-mounting-toroidal-transformer-standard-range-cm0625236

This would be better. 625Va is too much and you could run into issues with in-rush trips. 500Va is plenty and like I said you could get away with 300Va but doesn't leave much upgrade room.

However, you must wire in parallel, not series because you'll have 70Vac in series which will give 95Vdc + when rectified to DC and that will produce Magic smoke from those drives.!

If you want to go with series wiring then look for 2 x 20V 500Va. This will give aprox 55Vdc

Choice is yours.!

I noticed earlier you linked to Bridge and Caps. The bridge is correct but the Caps are wrong. 330Uf is far too low

You want to be looking for 3 x 100V 4700Uf. You could use 4 but 3 will work fine.

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/standard-range-toroidal-transformer-cm0500235

[dazp1976]

Ye, I see it as well and now go find me a typical low Nm nema17 or 23 with an inductance of 8Mh.! . . . . .
3nm with 6.8mh https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3pcs-Nema23-dual-shaft-stepper-motor-425oz-in-23HS9430B-LONGS-MOTOR/163596297366?hash=item2617196496:g:IZkAAOSw5CZcig1 u
3nm with 9mh https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Nema-23-CNC-425oz-in-Single-Shaft-4-lead-Stepper-Motor-Router-3D-Printer/161360168999?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2591d0c827:g:Z20AAOxyVLNSx5ps&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qXzLqcsBVvWDdvL 9r6gWVBOtM%2ByKk4K725B7NJriVkb51jPR8AIVxFJ%2BXnyd1 GWOKaWwaUX96vf%2FYzpS97GTV3w3sRMn%2F14hRVBQoha8UG7 hqGXzsIZdDoJiLddntw4eCXAZSvrRXCy5D5PIPTs5hDA7BjKsT PpzuryRdzPL0ibM%2FKpZNst6Y4LF7rQMhPCdQc2Jyj4I7v1L6 WF6iWIgNGNzRNS%2Fg0OnMqU2FZ70a8aVjj2NhUiNhHj9Ia0Lq EijLtaIMCCa%2FtG4p40GkLiTvI96oKjNWMn1ju5Sa%2BPl40d yu%2FstHZCl2WS0TiLMK7edoCE6lrXgn1o3am%2BScfW48yKm% 2BEaw%2FMU7odcHpSALoost480K74KpCkyOXEdeHKG5AoYdK%2 B1qKl%2FlvtZDTGcV5uz1UbMdLhMx7YD11IH%2Be%2FtG1eJcY 7jWC7KXMTBLSjRhmk1Pq%2B8v9RJwEwOfgkBp7YQYK7P7iHldA eAHhM9HtnhKO717ZIzWrAL8MxkOWMciTX6YZq08lGC%2FhuWzn LGrmWACmFnEiBpbiunqU8qdCnChswCoelyn%2BBM3eRYO%2FgJ SCn3w6314zACW26OaMvJWihvBEuU8SNRJ01TjLWQhGiM1U2jlt m%2FG5o5tgKlftrxPK2%2F8FXZqN7p4mry7Wi2gsCj7NmVaXnL PH8nzKfbBfCdh8wve04UAht45gRt5RgIqNyslnI32kSVYa8o1Y Ee1f0%2BVJmZIZ8C7ct07iS6WNBCYxbwXIRe1uaBGgHN3YWpls M%3D&checksum=161360168999746aa5a899054e8db51338d93d000 784
3nm from supposed respected company: 6.8mh in parallel 27.2mh in series!! wth. https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/stepper-motors/kl23h286-20-8b/
0.54nm Nema17 with 4.8mh is shocking enough afaic. https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/3d-printer-machine-parts/nema17-stepper-motor-3/

[ngwagwa]

If you want to go with series wiring then look for 2 x 20V 500Va. This will give aprox 55Vdc


I guess with 55Vdc I will hve to go with 80V controller then (the next one donw being 50V)?
https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-6.0A,-80V-CNC-Microstepping-CW8060

[JAZZCNC]

3nm with 6.8mh https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3pcs-Nema23-dual-shaft-stepper-motor-425oz-in-23HS9430B-LONGS-MOTOR/163596297366?hash=item2617196496:g:IZkAAOSw5CZcig1 u
3nm with 9mh https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Nema-23-CNC-425oz-in-Single-Shaft-4-lead-Stepper-Motor-Router-3D-Printer/161360168999?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2591d0c827:g:Z20AAOxyVLNSx5ps&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qXzLqcsBVvWDdvL 9r6gWVBOtM%2ByKk4K725B7NJriVkb51jPR8AIVxFJ%2BXnyd1 GWOKaWwaUX96vf%2FYzpS97GTV3w3sRMn%2F14hRVBQoha8UG7 hqGXzsIZdDoJiLddntw4eCXAZSvrRXCy5D5PIPTs5hDA7BjKsT PpzuryRdzPL0ibM%2FKpZNst6Y4LF7rQMhPCdQc2Jyj4I7v1L6 WF6iWIgNGNzRNS%2Fg0OnMqU2FZ70a8aVjj2NhUiNhHj9Ia0Lq EijLtaIMCCa%2FtG4p40GkLiTvI96oKjNWMn1ju5Sa%2BPl40d yu%2FstHZCl2WS0TiLMK7edoCE6lrXgn1o3am%2BScfW48yKm% 2BEaw%2FMU7odcHpSALoost480K74KpCkyOXEdeHKG5AoYdK%2 B1qKl%2FlvtZDTGcV5uz1UbMdLhMx7YD11IH%2Be%2FtG1eJcY 7jWC7KXMTBLSjRhmk1Pq%2B8v9RJwEwOfgkBp7YQYK7P7iHldA eAHhM9HtnhKO717ZIzWrAL8MxkOWMciTX6YZq08lGC%2FhuWzn LGrmWACmFnEiBpbiunqU8qdCnChswCoelyn%2BBM3eRYO%2FgJ SCn3w6314zACW26OaMvJWihvBEuU8SNRJ01TjLWQhGiM1U2jlt m%2FG5o5tgKlftrxPK2%2F8FXZqN7p4mry7Wi2gsCj7NmVaXnL PH8nzKfbBfCdh8wve04UAht45gRt5RgIqNyslnI32kSVYa8o1Y Ee1f0%2BVJmZIZ8C7ct07iS6WNBCYxbwXIRe1uaBGgHN3YWpls M%3D&checksum=161360168999746aa5a899054e8db51338d93d000 784
3nm from supposed respected company: 6.8mh in series 27.2mh in parallel!! wth. https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/stepper-motors/kl23h286-20-8b/
0.54nm Nema17 with 4.8mh is shocking enough afaic. https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/3d-printer-machine-parts/nema17-stepper-motor-3/

See here you go again giving out wrong information and not understanding how steppers work.!!

First, it's 27mh in series not parallel and that isn't uncommon when wired in series. For our needs with routers, it's 6Mh which just means it's a shit motor and to give it a wide birth.

It's a known fact that motors wired in series have higher Mh and require higher voltage if you want speed from them, this is why most of those you list have high inductance. If you look all except the third on list only have 4 wires and are probably Series wound motors.? Again anyone who fits these to a router is a moron who didn't do his research.!

However, all of this doesn't change the fact that your advice that "Doesn't matter wether you have Nema 17/ 23/ 34size motors etc, the drivers regulate output voltage to the motors themselves." is seriously wrong and potentially dangerous if took to the extremes ie: 240Vac drives with nema 17 motors.

I'm done with this now.!!

[JAZZCNC]

I guess with 55Vdc I will hve to go with 80V controller then (the next one donw being 50V)?
https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-6.0A,-80V-CNC-Microstepping-CW8060

Yes or if you want to use with 50V drives then size transformer accordingly. Just remember you need to leave a 10% safety margin so don't size transformer to give 50V or even 48V.

[ngwagwa]

Great, now things are starting to come together so I intend using:

AXBB-E Motion controller powered with Existing 24V power supply and new 5V PSU (see bellow)

500VA 230v to 2x35v Toroidal transformer (wired in parallel) https://airlinktransformers.com/product/standard-range-toroidal-transformer-cm0500235
Bridge Rectifier Diode, Single Phase, 400 V, 35 A
4 OFF Electrolytic Capacitor, 4700 µF, 100 VDC
3 OFF Stepper Motor Driver 6.0A, 80V CNC https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Microstepping-Driver/Stepper-Motor-Driver-6.0A,-80V-CNC-Microstepping-CW8060

Regarding the 5V supply the blurb from CNCDrive say We recommend to use a power supply with at least 500mAmps of current capability of thepower supply. More current may be required if more I/Os are used.so this should be well suitable?
50W 5V DC 10A Enclosed Switchmode Power Supply https://cpc.farnell.com/tt-electronics/srs-50-5/ac-dc-50watt-5vdc-10a-enclosed/dp/PW04290?st=5v%20psu
This was selected as it is cheap enough and as I will be ordering toher stuff from CPC I will get free delivery

[Doddy]

5V PSU is fine; overkill, but fine. CPC do sell DIN rail PSUs which are more costly, and lower rated but would give you an immediate solution to mounting this in your enclosure (I'm not going back through your pics but imagine there's a bit of rail spare in there somewhere?) There's one for a tad under £20 in CPC - more expensive, but either would work.

If you wanted to offset the cost I can throw a couple of 10,000uF / 160VDC (I think... cba to go to the shed at this time to check) caps at you - I just keep tripping over them, and having bought a job-load of them there's not many projects that they are suited for. But I think you'll be hitting CPC anyway for the bridge (I've nothing suitable).

I do think the choice of transformer voltage is not the best - as Jazz said it puts you at the bottom end of the next-level of stepper driver voltages (cheap - upto 50V, next level upto 80V and then around 110V before mains), you're too high to use the 50V drivers and so you're paying for 80V drivers and not really exploiting this. 2x45 wired in parallel would present around 60V which gives you a bit more bang for your buck at no extra cost. I'd go for... https://airlinktransformers.com/product/chassis-mounting-toroidal-transformer-standard-range-cm0300245

If it helps - I run a 2x50V 800W toroidal primarily on a Sieg but I can and do slave the Denford star mill (probably similar motors) from this. The choice of transformer was a Maplins clearance sale bargain, but it was close enough to what I wanted.

[ngwagwa]

Cheers Doddy.
I will stick to the cheap overkill 5V PSU
As you say I will be hitting CPC so will get 4 capacitors there.
Re the transformer the 35V ones I originally selected were 500VA, the ones you suggest are 300VA did you mean to link to this https://airlinktransformers.com/product/chassis-mounting-toroidal-transformer-standard-range-cm0500245 if so then point taken and this will be the one I use.

[Doddy]

Full reveal: I believe 300VA is enough for you and there's an air of cost-consciousness in your posts. If you're happy to suck up £20 extra for a pretty-much guaranteed future-proofing then go with it. You'll regret not doing it if you later need it, you'll probably not regret going 500VA if you don't need it.

[ngwagwa]

While being cost conscious I don't mind paying a little extra for future proofing, Thanks

[dazp1976]

See here you go again giving out wrong information and not understanding how steppers work.!!

First, it's 27mh in series not parallel and that isn't uncommon when wired in series. For our needs with routers, it's 6Mh which just means it's a shit motor and to give it a wide birth.

It's a known fact that motors wired in series have higher Mh and require higher voltage if you want speed from them, this is why most of those you list have high inductance. If you look all except the third on list only have 4 wires and are probably Series wound motors.? Again anyone who fits these to a router is a moron who didn't do his research.!

However, all of this doesn't change the fact that your advice that "Doesn't matter wether you have Nema 17/ 23/ 34size motors etc, the drivers regulate output voltage to the motors themselves." is seriously wrong and potentially dangerous if took to the extremes ie: 240Vac drives with nema 17 motors.

I'm done with this now.!!

You asked for examples. I wouldn't use them for paperweights and they theoretically should not be allowed on the market to dupe people.
Would avoid Automation Technologies when it comes to a lot of steppers too. Pretty dire afaic. Seen many recommend A,T. Shocker.

[JAZZCNC]

You asked for examples. I wouldn't use them for paperweights and they theoretically should not be allowed on the market to dupe people.

They are not duping people if they provide the relevent details. For some applications they are perfectly fine. It's the users responsabilty to know what they are buying and make sure they are fit for purpose. In case of routers they are not unless used with higher voltages, there are better choices and that's why we use them.

But I do agree I wouldn't use these nasties either even if correct for the job.!!

[ngwagwa]

Right folks.
I have the 36V PSU kindly donated by Doddy installed an powered alongside a DIV268N to drive the X axis

BOB connected to the driver as follows:
5V connected to DIR+ PUL+ EN+
EN to EN-
XDIR to DIR-
XCLK to PUL-

I have found the correct 4 wires for the stepper and which are pairs - does it matter which pair is connected to A and B on the driver and how do I know which is + or - ?

I think the only missing thing is the dip switch settings

[Doddy]

Stepper: If it goes in the wrong direction, swap one pair.

Pull the EN signal for now - without the enable signal the driver defaults to ON. Once you get it working then re-assess if this is part of your e-stop strategy.

DIP-switch, start with 8 micro-steps and maybe 2.5A or thereabouts. If the motor gets uncomfortable warm then think to reduce - but that current should be safe.

[ngwagwa]

Stepper: If it goes in the wrong direction, swap one pair.

.

I am just getting a knocking noise - no movement.

I forgot about the 5th and 6th wires from the steppers. They run from the stepper to the underside of the cabinet - I will try and trace th- this may take some time.....

UPDATE
I have manage to get underneath (glad the router wasn't sat on a table) and it looks like the rogue blue and white cables are connected through the umbilical (the wiring diagram I have does not show them). Thre are several identical multicore cables going from inside the cabinet through to the underside and as my arms aren't long enough I am going to have to leave it until tomorrow as I don't want to cut the wrong ones.

[Doddy]

If these are wired in a unipolar manner - which is sounds as though they are... you will need to isolate the centre taps. I appreciate the buggeration that comes with this - and recognise that at this time you're probably trying to keep the machine in a recoverable format (normally I'd just cut/isolate the cable at the stepper), but I understand you may want to be a bit more circumspect. the centre tap will be either to ground or to +V and it'll be causing problems for the driver - certainly your described behaviour I can imagine with the centre taps connected.

[ngwagwa]

Doddy - I wasn't too worried about leaving the machine recoverable I was simply worried about cutting the wrong wires and disabling Y and Z.

[ngwagwa]

This appears to be getting complicated.
Out of the stepper motor I have Black - White - Orange - Red - Blue and Yellow
Blue and yellow are not connected to the cable
White is connected to the yellow in the cable

I can't be sure if these are the same in the cabinet but in the cabinet I have the following pairs
Read and Yelow
Black and orange
These are all labelled X

The Stepper motor is Sanyodenki 103H7124

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27783
27784

So by my reckoning I I am connecting to the taps on the stepper?

[JAZZCNC]

It's simple to test just check the resistance between the three wires of each coil. One pair will be double the resistance of the others. These two are the ones you want for each coil.
Do the same for the other coil and you have found your 4 wires needed. Just leave the others disconnected but terminated for safety.

[Doddy]

If I understand Carl properly, what he's saying is (I think - please confirm) from the first paragraph: that one the centre-tap to one end of the coil is wired into the cabinet - a half-coil configuration. This presents a reduced torque for the machine (obviously by Denford design) - and those motors aren't particularly torquey to begin with. You can work with this for now at least - it was always a choice on this conversion.

But you're still just getting a knocking noise from the stepper under drive?, can you take a photo of the driver, in particular the connectors/wiring AND the DIP switches? I'm curious about your current setting and the microsteps.

If I was in your boat I'd be setting the driver to 2.5A and 8 microsteps to begin with... maybe even just 1 step to keep things simple. I'd be measuring the volts on the supply to the driver, and even swapping out the driver for another just to check that.

If we're ever allowed out I'll offer you a second pair of eyes if that would help - but I can't see that happening any time soon - and I think you'll resolve this a long time before then.

EDIT: One of those DIV268s has a label, something like "Modified" on it - try that one, it's geared to handle fast signals.

[ngwagwa]

Original pairs has resistance of 2.3 and I have now wired up pairs with a resistance of 4.0
Still no movement just a knocking noise though the knocking isn't as harsh as it was (if that makes any sense).

[ngwagwa]

EDIT: One of those DIV268s has a label, something like "Modified" on it - try that one, it's geared to handle fast signals.

That's it. Changed over to the "modded" stepper and I have movement - but slow.

[ngwagwa]

Set steps to 2 and X now moves at same speed as Y (by eye).
The X axis stepper is silent now when running compared to the whining of the Y stepper.

[JAZZCNC]

Set steps to 2 and X now moves at same speed as Y (by eye).
The X axis stepper is silent now when running compared to the whining of the Y stepper.

Do you understand the relationship between Micro steps and Steps Per setting in Motor tuning that need setting so you get correct move distance? Also, the affects higher and lower micro-steps have on the motors.?

The first is something you need to know if you want correct movement and the second is worth knowing get a better idea of the effects of micro-stepping.

If not just say and will explain.

[ngwagwa]

Do you understand the relationship between Micro steps and Steps Per setting in Motor tuning that need setting so you get correct move distance? Also, the affects higher and lower micro-steps have on the motors.?

Not a clue to be honest I would appreciate an explanation. After homing the machine appears to be going to the correct point when I zero all.

One thing I did notice that wasn't shown well in the cabinet photos is a "Control Transformer" with outputs marked 28, 110, 120 and 240 if that's something we can reuse. All my parts should be coming next week.

[Doddy]

Interesting that "Modded" worked - that suggests your pulse width (somewhere in the motor tuning pages of Mach3 by memory) is less than 3uS. Try changing that to 5us for reliable operation.

EDIT: Silent?, Nonsense - you'll appreciate silent when you replace with a digital DSP controller.

[ngwagwa]

Interesting that "Modded" worked - that suggests your pulse width (somewhere in the motor tuning pages of Mach3 by memory) is less than 3uS. Try changing that to 5us for reliable operation.


They are all set at zero! Can I leave them for now and look at them when I go over to UUCNC?

[JAZZCNC]

Not a clue to be honest I would appreciate an explanation. After homing the machine appears to be going to the correct point when I zero all.

If that case you have been lucky and set MS to same as old setup (you can pick my lottery numbers)
Edit: No your probably not lucky, obviously it will go to the same point because the Home switch stops it and sets the zero. If you tell it to move say 20mm does it move 20mm.?

Ok well, it's not hard but it is important. I'll try to keep short n simple but it will still be long.!.

Your steppers will have a base count number of steps per revolution, often this number is 200 or 1.8deg per step. But this can be different depending on the motors but I'll work on that for this example because it's most common.

Now the drives offer a function that allows each step to be broken down into sub-steps or Micro steps (MS). The drive will offer a range of MS dividers ie: 2, 4, 8, 16, etc or sometimes you'll see them wrote as 400, 800, 1600, 3200 etc. They all mean the same thing and tell you how many times they are going to divide each step up or like in later example how many steps make up one Revolution of the stepper.

Now the controller needs to be told how many Steps(pulses) it must send out to move the machine 1 unit of measurement, So if set to metric how many Steps per MM.
This is determined by a calculation for which we need some information about the machine.

We need to know how far it moves for one turn of the motor shaft. Now linear movement can be done in many ways ie: ball screws, rack n pinion, belt-drive, etc but this doesn't matter all we need to know is how far it moves for 1 turn of the motor shaft.

The easiest way is to just turn the motor one Rev and measure how far it moved but this need to be measured very accurately. But we can also calculate it if we know some details about the machine. In this case, I'm going to work on using ball screws.

So using a 5mm Pitch ball screw and set the drives to 8 which is like saying 8 x 200 or 1600 MS we will get the following Step Per figure.
1600/5=320 Steps per MM

Now if the ball screws and motor are connected via a belt with a ratio then we need to factor that in as well. So lets say we have a 2:1 ratio then we get.
1600/5 =320/2=160 Steps per MM

This is the number you enter into Mach3 Steps Per setting so that the machine moves the correct distance.
The Steps Per setting is very important and not something that can be guessed or random numbers entered.

The speeds you'll get from the machine will be determined by the Steps Per value and the Frequency you have available. The pitch of the screws, motors and voltage etc all play a part here and are why a balanced setup works best. I'll leave that for another time!



Now the affects Micro stepping as on the Motors and the system as a whole gets a little deep so won't go too far into it. I'll just give the key advantages and downsides.

The main advantage to micro-stepping on the motors is they make them run smoother, you'll often see it mentioned it offers high resolution, which it does to some degree but it shouldn't really be relied upon. The largest effect is on the smoothness of the motors.

The down side is it lowers the motor torques and puts a higher strain on the device which is creating the pulses.

Now to you both of these are important because in the first place these motors don't have massive Torque and your also using the parallel port which is limited in frequency and on how fast it can pump out pulses.

So in your case, you'll be better using lower MS because it will allow a higher number of pulses which translates to potential higher feed rates, but you still want some motor smoothing, so don't drop right down to the lowest setting as it can make the motors run very rough.

4 x (800) is a good number but some times you may need 2 x (400) to give you the speed because of the in-balance as mentioned above and lower frequency etc.

Some times a certain MS setting won't suit the motor because resonance in the machine when working can affect how the motor runs, so in cases like these, esp with a parallel port and cheap drives, you have to move the MS range up or down to find a sweet spot the motor likes. This happens a lot on analog and shitty drives.
Newer Digital drives are much much better at handling resonance and along with faster motion controllers like the AXBB completely transform a machine, even with old lower torque motors.


I hope this hasn't blown your mind.
Simply put if you don't set the Steps Per correctly it will never be accurate and if you set the MS too high you'll stress the parallel port and run slow.!!

[Doddy]

They are all set at zero! Can I leave them for now and look at them when I go over to UUCNC?

Your call.

I'll tell you the behaviour if the pulse width is too low... You lose steps.

[ngwagwa]

Your call.

I'll tell you the behaviour if the pulse width is too low... You lose steps.

Right I will change them when I go in tomorrow.

[ngwagwa]

If that case you have been lucky and set MS to same as old setup (you can pick my lottery numbers)
Edit: No your probably not lucky, obviously it will go to the same point because the Home switch stops it and sets the zero. If you tell it to move say 20mm does it move 20mm.?


Sorry I didn't explain that too well, after homing the machine it went to the work datum ie G55 0,0,0 (machine position X-355, Y-130 and Z-45}. I was assuing that as none of the Mach3 settings had changed all would be good.

Thanks for the explnation and I get the general idea - the "steps per" on the current setup is <Steps0>31.50619418</Steps0> guessing maybe imperial pitch lead screws.

I am hoping to have all the parts for the retro-fit by the end of next week (the toroidal transformer may be later as they say This was only ordered today! It takes 2/3 days for us to wind the order.) Anyway I can hopefully forget any serial port imitations when the new motion controller is installed. Changing the wiring on the Y and Z steppers is going to be a bitch if they are wired the same as the X axis.

Meanwhile I will set a job running tomorrow and start working out the layout of the new parts and how to get them in the control box.

[JAZZCNC]

Thanks for the explnation and I get the general idea - the "steps per" on the current setup is <Steps0>31.50619418</Steps0> guessing maybe imperial pitch lead screws.


No that will be metric. If it was imperial it would be much higher number.

[ngwagwa]

Apparently I havn't got as much room in the cabinet as I thought.
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[Doddy]

Apparently I havn't got as much room in the cabinet as I thought.


QFT: That single statement is what we've all felt like at some time. Today I've been stacking BoBs on top of BoBs, and Relay boards on top of PSUs... and the cabinet always looked too big on paper.

It's not big or clever, but there's always the third dimension.

[ngwagwa]

It's not big or clever, but there's always the third dimension.

That's why I modelled it solids.
27788

[Doddy]

Sorry, I think I'm somewhat less than clear. My post, for what it was worth, was lamenting that I've ran out of space in my cabinet and and busy stacking boards and components - into the third dimension. Intended a little tongue-in-cheek.

One quick suggestion - having stared at some real-estate in my cabinet where a PSU burnt itself out - a lesson learnt to not seal enclosures without cooling - if you've not already planned this, make sure that you have a cooling fan or two in the cabinet for extracting hot air.

[ngwagwa]

Advice much appreciated - my layout was posted to see if anyone commented on it.
I am using the original Denford control box which has an air inlet bottom right and (I think) a 4 inch fan top left. It gets a good flow through as in winter I had to put an external deflector on ot to stop the cold air freezing my legs.

[dazp1976]

One for Jazz.
Got my PM25 clone running today and works brilliant but...
I used overkill Nema34 (the grief of my X2 knocked me a bit) seem good motors so that's all fine.

Anyway. If I hit my soft limits at 2000mm/min the motors slightly over travel and put my position out by 0.2mm.
I would say this is down to the rotor inertia of the overkill motors. Would you agree?

Simple solution... Don't hit the limits :whistle:
I do have some decent nema23 size for it. I'll make some mounts so I can try them out.

[JAZZCNC]

One for Jazz.
Got my PM25 clone running today and works brilliant but...
I used overkill Nema34 (the grief of my X2 knocked me a bit) seem good motors so that's all fine.

Anyway. If I hit my soft limits at 2000mm/min the motors slightly over travel and put my position out by 0.2mm.
I would say this is down to the rotor inertia of the overkill motors. Would you agree?

Simple solution... Don't hit the limits :whistle:
I do have some decent nema23 size for it. I'll make some mounts so I can try them out.

Soft limits shouldn't be out by any amount. The point of them is that the controller controls the velocity/acceleration and position so it doesn't let you go past the soft limit value and brings the axis to a controlled stop, unlike when you hit a physical limit switch which just turns off the motor output. In this case, you always get over travel from inertia if moving quickly and even at lower feeds you should consider position lost if you hit the E-stop or limit sw.

[ngwagwa]

OK, Step pulses set to 2 - what about the Dir pulses (currently zero)

Regadng my rewire here is the bottom rail that wouldn't have been too clear on the previous pictures. I suppose I can use some of these for splitting the rectified output from the toroidal transformer?

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[Doddy]

I'll bow out of the conversation on re-using DIN rail terminals - I'm not familiar with them enough to advise (Only recently realised there's such things as shorting links). If you have the rail installed (which you have) it feels like a good opportunity, but others here with more experience will offer a more accurate view.

About the DIR - probably best to be set similar - if you miss a DIR change then you might end up with a single step in the wrong direction - but as this would only be on change of direction the error is unlikely to accumulate.

I take your point though that you'll be migrating to UCCNC next week anyway... I wouldn't sweat it too much.

[ngwagwa]

If you inventory what you have and find the voltages etc and tell me what controller you are going to use I will happily help you work out a wiring schematic.

Here is the list:

Existing items

Power supplies:
24V 3A
24V 14.6A
12V 2A
RFI Filter
Omron relay MK2P-S
Omron relay G2R-2-SN
Control Transformer" with outputs marked 28, 110, 120 and 240
DIN Rail
Fan (voltage unknown will check tomorrow)
Main on/Off switch


On order:

Airlink 500VA 230v to 2x45v toroidal transformer

Power supply 50W 5V DC 10A
bridge rectifier 400V 35A
4OFF Electrolytic Capacitor, 4700 µF, 100 VDC

ABXX-E Motion Controller

3-OFF Stepper Motor Driver 6.0A, 80V CNC Microstepping CW8060

Terminal Blocks and wires


I am pretty sure I can wire the ABXX to the drivers and steppers and the VFD is seperate so really all I need help with is getting the mains to the PSUs and on to the devices and the E-Stop.
I think I can work out the limit switches.
I thought it would be tidy to use the existing connectors on the rail to get my rectified output from the toroidal transformer the the drivers, I could have the wiring run behind my mounting board.

Obviously if I have missed anythng please let me know.

[JAZZCNC]

Do you have momentary Button on the machine that can be used for safety Reset. You really need this as part of the E-stop safety system.

[ngwagwa]

Do you have momentary Button on the machine that can be used for safety Reset. You really need this as part of the E-stop safety system.

I asume you mean the big red one on the front? If so then yes.

EDIT.
No that will be the E-Stop button won't it?

At the moment if I bend over and catch the E-stop with my backside I click on the Mach3 reset button to continue.

[JAZZCNC]

I asume you mean the big red one on the front? If so then yes.

EDIT.
No that will be the E-Stop button won't it?

At the moment if I bend over and catch the E-stop with my backside I click on the Mach3 reset button to continue.

Ermm probably not usually Big Red button is E-stop, show me a pic.

[ngwagwa]

Ermm probably not usually Big Red button is E-stop, show me a pic.

You may have missed my edit before you replied but yes big red is the E-stop and Mach3 reset turns everything back on.

[ngwagwa]

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[ngwagwa]

JAZZ I have just remembered the E-Stop switch stays in when pressed, I have to turn it (I think) to get it back out.

[ngwagwa]

I hope this hasn't blown your mind.
Simply put if you don't set the Steps Per correctly it will never be accurate and if you set the MS too high you'll stress the parallel port and run slow.!!

So, if the machine is running right if I change the steps on the driver from 1/4 to 1/8 I need to double the steps per in UUCNC?

I believe you use cncdrive motion controllers? If so do you know if the utility will see the controller on the network when UUCNC is connected? I can connect with UUCNC but it keeps dropping the connection and I'm concerned that the utility has never found the controller.

[JAZZCNC]

So, if the machine is running right if I change the steps on the driver from 1/4 to 1/8 I need to double the steps per in UUCNC?

Yes


I believe you use cncdrive motion controllers? If so do you know if the utility will see the controller on the network when UUCNC is connected? I can connect with UUCNC but it keeps dropping the connection and I'm concerned that the utility has never found the controller.

I've never had any issues like that, they either connect and stay connected or they don't connect at all. Never drop out.?

You say "on the Network" are you trying to run this over a network ie: thru a switch or directly from PC to controller.?
Also are you using a patch cable or just an ordinary network cable because some network cables can be wired differently to others.!

[ngwagwa]

You say "on the Network" are you trying to run this over a network ie: thru a switch or directly from PC to controller.?
Also are you using a patch cable or just an ordinary network cable because some network cables can be wired differently to others.!

PC connected to a hub then hub connected to controller, both standard cables nothing else connected and even tried 2 different PCs (I have a crossover ordered to try)

[JAZZCNC]

PC connected to a hub then hub connected to controller, both standard cables nothing else connected and even tried 2 different PCs (I have a crossover ordered to try)

Try it direct to controller first to elimnate the hub

[ngwagwa]

Try it direct to controller first to elimnate the hub

Direct connection and no joy, am trying to resolve with CNCdrive support

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Yhey are telling me I need V1.8 or newer utility tool but I can't find it on their website.

[Doddy]

This might not help at all, but for each of my 3 ethernet based motion controllers I installed a second ethernet port and created private LAN between control PC and the motion card without any switch (or hub?, really?, you really don't throw anything away :) ), subnetted accordingly. Now, I'll also say I've never used a cross-over cable but think that most PCs nowadays are auto MDI-X sensing and will sort that out for you.

[ngwagwa]

This might not help at all, but for each of my 3 ethernet based motion controllers I installed a second ethernet port and created private LAN between control PC and the motion card without any switch (or hub?, really?, you really don't throw anything away :) ), subnetted accordingly. Now, I'll also say I've never used a cross-over cable but think that most PCs nowadays are auto MDI-X sensing and will sort that out for you.

Thanks Doddy. PCI ethernet card on order! Have realised my laptop can use a standard patch cable and have tried that today but still disconnects.

[ngwagwa]

STUMPED!
Have installed a Startech PCI Ethernet Network Card and crossover cable direct to the AXBB.
It sometimes connects but often wont.
Utility V1.8 also sometimes does not see the AXBB and when it does it all is OK when I test the connection.
UCCNC V1.2111 sometimes connects to the machine and sometimes doesn't and sometimes it wants to start in demo mode.
No anti virus installed and Firewall turned off.
Have tried with onboard network card enabled and disabled and have tried with both my Windows 7 PC (crossover cable only) and with my windows 10 laptop (straight and crossover cable)
Turning off the AXBB for 5 minutes and/or rebooting either PC does not help.
During all the attempts pinging the AXBB does not lose any packets

[ngwagwa]

If these are wired in a unipolar manner - which is sounds as though they are... you will need to isolate the centre taps. I appreciate the buggeration that comes with this - and recognise that at this time you're probably trying to keep the machine in a recoverable format (normally I'd just cut/isolate the cable at the stepper), but I understand you may want to be a bit more circumspect. the centre tap will be either to ground or to +V and it'll be causing problems for the driver - certainly your described behaviour I can imagine with the centre taps connected.

So just to recap the X Axis stepper now uses the 2 pairs of wires that have the highest resistance.

Today I thought while I would do the same with the other two steppers starting with the Y axis. Disconnected the 4 leads from the driver and the resistance on each pair is 2.4 ohm. Opened up the cover at the stepper end and to my surprise there were 6 wires connected (X Axis only had 4) I measured the resitance to find the correct two pairs to use and am now lost. Two pairs (brown/orange and red/yellow) have a resistance of 1.8 ohm and the two purple have a resistance of 0.4. I should say at this point the manufacturer of the stepper is unknown. I don't yet know where the purple wires go but all the unused wires that go to the control cabinet from the umbilical have been disconnected and isolated (at least I thought they had). I will trace the 2 purple wires tomorrow or Saturday.

[Doddy]

Two PCs, starting to sound more like a AXBB issue - but that's a very very premature conclusion.

Can you post the results of "ipconfig" from a dos prompt? And are you familiar with Wireshark? - it would be useful to know if the comms to the board is bring routed onto the correct interface... but it's not something that you can pick up in 2 minutes.

I'm hesitant but thinking I could pull my UC300ETH so that you can test your PC against that as a known quantity - just for consistent comms.

[Doddy]

So just to recap the X Axis stepper now uses the 2 pairs of wires that have the highest resistance.

Today I thought while I would do the same with the other two steppers starting with the Y axis. Disconnected the 4 leads from the driver and the resistance on each pair is 2.4 ohm. Opened up the cover at the stepper end and to my surprise there were 6 wires connected (X Axis only had 4) I measured the resitance to find the correct two pairs to use and am now lost. Two pairs (brown/orange and red/yellow) have a resistance of 1.8 ohm and the two purple have a resistance of 0.4. I should say at this point the manufacturer of the stepper is unknown. I don't yet know where the purple wires go but all the unused wires that go to the control cabinet from the umbilical have been disconnected and isolated (at least I thought they had). I will trace the 2 purple wires tomorrow or Saturday.

...Are you not just measuring the loom resistance in series with the coil resistance?, or have I misunderstood?

[ngwagwa]

Two PCs, starting to sound more like a AXBB issue - but that's a very very premature conclusion.

Can you post the results of "ipconfig" from a dos prompt? And are you familiar with Wireshark? - it would be useful to know if the comms to the board is bring routed onto the correct interface... but it's not something that you can pick up in 2 minutes.

I'm hesitant but thinking I could pull my UC300ETH so that you can test your PC against that as a known quantity - just for consistent comms.

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I disabled the onboard ethernet.

[Doddy]

Okay, nothing sinister from the ipconfig, and you've already said that you've rebooted both PC and AXBB. And different cables, and different PCs. I, for one, am running out of ideas.

[ngwagwa]

Okay, nothing sinister from the ipconfig, and you've already said that you've rebooted both PC and AXBB. And different cables, and different PCs. I, for one, am running out of ideas.

Doddy are you using a cncdrive motion controller? If so (and providing it's convenient) can you tell me what the activity light does on the controller when the PC is powered up but no software is running? Mine (most of the time) is inactive which I don't think it should be as cncdrive tell me the AXBB broadcasts itself on the network.

[ngwagwa]

...Are you not just measuring the loom resistance in series with the coil resistance?, or have I misunderstood?

The 2 readings of 2.4 were pairs from the stepper disconnected from everything else. The 0.4 on the purples I am not sure now as I only disconnected 1 of them so I knew which was which - I will double check the purples and try and trace then tomorrow providing UPS deliver in the morning otherwise it will be Saturday.

[Doddy]

Doddy are you using a cncdrive motion controller? If so (and providing it's convenient) can you tell me what the activity light does on the controller when the PC is powered up but no software is running? Mine (most of the time) is inactive which I don't think it should be as cncdrive tell me the AXBB broadcasts itself on the network.

Will check later tonight (I've lots of things in bits in the shed that I need to recover before taking more bits apart. But, I have a plan to get the controller out of the bench any way to slave a second machine control cable to it - so will check as you ask.

[Doddy]

I have a video, but it's fuzzy and noisy... but if it helps I'll throw it onto YouTube. But, I think I can describe it easily enough:

No comms: Green power light on board, green carrier light as one of the two integrated LEDs on the RJ45 socket.
UCCNC starting up: Blue light on board illuminates. Orange activity light in RJ45 flashes 3-4 times a second, continuously.
UCCNC operating: As above.
UCCNC shutdown: Blue light, and orange light extinguish.

[ngwagwa]

I have a video, but it's fuzzy and noisy... but if it helps I'll throw it onto YouTube. But, I think I can describe it easily enough:

No comms: Green power light on board, green carrier light as one of the two integrated LEDs on the RJ45 socket.
UCCNC starting up: Blue light on board illuminates. Orange activity light in RJ45 flashes 3-4 times a second, continuously.
UCCNC operating: As above.
UCCNC shutdown: Blue light, and orange light extinguish.

Thanks so there is a light on next to the RJ45 socket with no comms but it goes off after running and exiting UCCNC?

[Doddy]

Sorry, the green light on the board remains on throughout, comms or no comms.

The blue light on the board is on only whilst connected to the software.

This is a UC300ETH, btw, not an AXBB.

[ngwagwa]

Thanks. I have just re-RTFM and found:
The green LED in the RJ45 connector is the 'Link' Led which lights when there is an active
connection to the computer or switch/router. If the green LED is off when the LAN cable is
connected to the computer and the AXBB-E board is powered then there is a physical
connection problem, the cable might be broken or has the wrong pinout.
The orange LED is the 'Activity' LED which lights when packets being received or
transmitted by the device.

And the green light goes off on mine. My parcel is due before 11am tomorrow so I will have another look as I can't say I have seen an orange light BUT probably not looked at it when it has connencted. I have also now got another spare hub to try.

[ngwagwa]

The 2 readings of 2.4 were pairs from the stepper disconnected from everything else. The 0.4 on the purples I am not sure now as I only disconnected 1 of them so I knew which was which - I will double check the purples and try and trace then tomorrow providing UPS deliver in the morning otherwise it will be Saturday.

So out of stepper I have 6 wires 2 pairs each with a resistance of 2.4 and two purple wires with a resistance 0.4. The 2 pairs are connected to the drivers and i have (so far) been unable to trace the purple inside the cabinet but they are not connected together and there is no connection between the 2 puple and the other 2 pairs.

[dazp1976]

So out of stepper I have 6 wires 2 pairs each with a resistance of 2.4 and two purple wires with a resistance 0.4. The 2 pairs are connected to the drivers and i have (so far) been unable to trace the purple inside the cabinet but they are not connected together and there is no connection between the 2 puple and the other 2 pairs.

I've tried reading around while I'm bored and didn't get very far. All I've got is:
6 wire steppers can be wired Unipolar or Bipolar(series).
My guess is it's in series and NC means not connected?
27954

[ngwagwa]

I've tried reading around while I'm bored and didn't get very far. All I've got is:
6 wire steppers can be wired Unipolar or Bipolar(series).
My guess is it's in series and NC means not connected?
27954

That's the configuration on my X Axis (I found out thanks to JAZZNC and Doddy) it was originally wired A+ to COM and B+ to COM so we changed it as per your diagram.

Thinking the Y and Z axis would be the same I was examining the wires on the Z axis (typo earlier) but all I could find were two pairs with a resistance of 2.4 and the 2 purple with a resistance of 0.4,

[ngwagwa]

Many thanks to everyone especially Doddy and JAZZCNC for all the assistance given and my Denford Router is now much improved with a new 65V power supply, digital drivers, AXBB motion controller with UCCNC at the front end. Along the way I have been introduced and educated in many of the intricacies of CNC control that prior to this were black magic. I am now cutting metal and have only one more piece of the black art to come to grips with which I have posted in the UCCNC section of the Machine Control Software section.

[Doddy]

You'll be back! <manical snigger>