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irving2008
07-09-2010, 11:35 PM
Just read the small print... it now says under clause 13.3...


a. PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods
that can be posted. Payments for the following are not eligible for re-imbursement under PayPal
Buyer Protection:
. . .


industrial machinery used in manufacturing.


So if you buy a lathe on eBay thats is couriered to you and pay by Paypal, does this mean it is no longer covered? I have emailed paypal for clarification...

Jonathan
08-09-2010, 12:00 AM
Wow, well spotted!

I guess that even if PayPal don't cover it then assuming you pay by credit card then the credit card company should cover you?

I wonder why they've introduced this...

I await PayPal's reply to your email with interest, not that I expect to be buying a lathe any time soon!

i2i
08-09-2010, 12:03 AM
you could say it is a hobby lathe, but it does seem odd that this is mentioned specifically.

irving2008
08-09-2010, 12:09 AM
Wow, well spotted!

I guess that even if PayPal don't cover it then assuming you pay by credit card then the credit card company should cover you?

I wonder why they've introduced this...

I await PayPal's reply to your email with interest, not that I expect to be buying a lathe any time soon!

Yes, but I have my paypal set up to use a debit card for smaller purchases, so would a collet set or a set of endmills fall foul of this description?

Jonathan
08-09-2010, 12:11 AM
Yes, but I have my paypal set up to use a debit card for smaller purchases, so would a collet set or a set of endmills fall foul of this description?

Good point...I guess a collet set or endmills isn't a machine. It's all a bit vague though..

irving2008
13-09-2010, 05:31 PM
Well surprise surprise, I got a phone call from Paypal today, which resulted in a useful discussion, followed up by an email:

+++

Thank you for your time to talk with us about your concerns regarding
the policy update for PayPal buyer protection in November 2010.

I would like to thank you for your comments regarding the
clause in the PayPal?s User Agreement which is going to be applied in
November 2010 which refers to the fact that ??Industrial machinery used
in manufacturing?? will not be covered for PayPal Buyer Protection. You
have indicated that this clause is not specified enough and may
therefore become a potential problem for you as you are buying
computerised equipment for a hobby and small business use.

Therefore I will take this matter further within our department in order
to investigate whether we can bring more clarity to this clause. I do
apologise in the meantime for the inconvenience this clause might bring
to you.

Should you have any further queries on this matter, please feel free to
email us at ...

Yours sincerely,

Joris Zandleven

Executive Escalations
PayPal

AdieR
18-09-2010, 09:06 PM
"Industrial machinery used in manufacturing"? One wonders if it's supposed to apply to companies / businesses / traders (ie VAT registered, or registered with Companies House?), rather than home / hobby users?

"Industrial machinery" - that could cover a lot: as well as mills / lathes etc it could also be sheetmetal presses / injection moulding plant, guillotines, packaging machines / thermoformers, fridges / freezers / ovens for the food industry, printing presses, welding plant, generator sets - the list is endless. It could also be taken to mean a part thereof: tools and dies for example, electrical systems / control panels. What about electrical test gear (DMM, 'scope, signal generators)? "Hobby" air compressors? Hand tools (spanners / sockets / screwdrivers, measuring eqpt)?

What about "other" items, used indirectly in the manufacturing industry, eg mobile phones / laptop computers / communication systems, TV's, DVD players? Does this come under it? At what point does an item come under "Industrial" equipment?

I would think its aimed at registered traders / businesses, but more clarification is required.

irving2008
19-09-2010, 02:21 AM
Thats a pretty good assessment of the discussion I had with them on the phone... I think what they were trying to avoid is getting stuffed for large scale disputes, like if you buy a 10k VMC on ebay. It wasnt meant to hit the small stuff but its too generic. Apparently some people have bought large scale goods like that via a paypal account set up specifically for the transaction and a CC. Then when there's a dispute about the suitability of the machine they put in a buyer claim on paypal and a chargeback request on the CC. that leaves paypal in the lurch... they cant take the money back off the seller unless the goods are returned but now they get stuffed for the buyers amount due to the new CC chargeback rules which as a merchant they are bound by.