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routercnc
18-09-2010, 10:49 PM
I've started setting up my VFD, but can't get very much speed out of the spindle. Display shows about 8-12Hz and spindle is turning very slowly and whistles slightly.

Spindle is the 1.5Kw water cooled one from 'lovehappyshopping', freq 400Hz, speed 8000-24000rpm, 8A, 3phase, 220V. Checked the windings with multimeter and there are no shorts.

VFD is Moeller DV51-322 (1.5kW). I so far have set the following:
H203 (power) 1.5Kw
H204 (poles) 2 (also tried 4)
H207 (voltage) 230V
A016 (max current) 8A

A003 (base freq) 133Hz
A004 (max freq) 400Hz
A044 (V/F mode) linear constant torque

The rest I've left as defaults. I've also installed drive software on my PC which enables easy viewing of the rest of the settings. There are perhaps 100-150 settings listed and I don't know which ones to change to get the spindle to run quicker.

Any ideas?

John S
18-09-2010, 10:58 PM
Is there an online book ?

base frequency should be 50 hz. Poles should be 2

irving2008
19-09-2010, 02:25 AM
and if you increase the frequency does it speed up?... with your multimeter set to ACV what are the three phase voltages at the motor? Is it wired star or delta?

routercnc
19-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Thanks for your help on this one.

This is the unit. I also bought the keypad (contains a pot which I've been trying to use to control the speed), mains filter, and braking resistor (not fitted yet):
http://www.moeller-drives.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=32_48_35&products_id=59

Online manual is here, but I found it hard going and because they are obviously designed for industrial use where the installation is being carried out by someone who knows what they are doing!
http://www.inverter.co.uk/applications/manuals&datasheets/moeller-dv51-manual.pdf

The software which comes with the drive shows all the possible parameters. The idea is that you can set them in software, then download them to the VFD via a RJ45 cable, but I've yet to get them to talk to each other, so I'm using the software to look at possible values, then type them in manually on the VFD panel. I've saved these parameters out as a csv file, attached below.

I've also attached screenshots of the software showing all the parameter (sorry there are so many pages!)

If I rotate the pot position on the front panel it will start whining, then spin up to a very slow ~12Hz. I can't get any more out of it.

I then tried changing to 2 poles and 50Hz base freq but the spindle got hot quickly and ran roughly, so I stopped it straight away. I thought that base freq was the minimum speed, which is quoted as 8000rpm, so I had put 133Hz here because I'd read about overheating problems if you run these motors too slowly - although this might just mean air cooled ones. Or does the base frequency refer to the mains freq?

Star vs delta winding - any idea how I'd find out. There is no documentation with the spindle in true Chinese style.

Can I confirm checking the AC output - I am checking across pairs of the UVW terminals, or between earth and each terminal?

routercnc
19-09-2010, 11:07 AM
CRACKED IT!

Read around more and found a thread about setting the base freq to 400Hz (this was for the Chinese VFDs). Tried this and success! On the previous screenshots A003 and A004 should both be 400Hz it would seem.

I'd kept the 2 poles as you suggested John, thanks for that. You mention base freq as 50Hz - it doesn't seem to like this, maybe that is for motors used on for lathes, drills etc rather than these Chinese Spindles?

Anyway, working now. When I press the green {I} button, then spindle quickly spools up to 50Hz (stays cools, sounds nice). I can then rotate the pot and send it all the way to 400Hz.

There are settings for this start freq and end freq (A061 and A062) which were 50Hz and 400Hz, which seem to be the ranges controlled by the pot.

I then set the accel and decel to 2 seconds (default was 10sec) and it all still works fine. Since I'll be using small tools, with low inertia, I wonder if the braking resistor was a waste of money!

Anyway, happy bunny :beer:

p.s. The VFD, mains filter, and spindle are on my computer desk (in the house) and are about 3" away from my LCD screen - there is no interference or lines on the screen which is an encouraging start. With the mains filter and screen motor cable it would seem to be doing something although the real test will be when it is back in the garage on the CNC machine.

irving2008
19-09-2010, 11:10 AM
across each pair UV VW WU and individually to neutral if it has a neutral but not to chassis ground. If there is no neutral then its delta wired.

The two factors that control the motor performance will be frequency and voltage. Generally the VFD is set up so that the voltage drops as the frequency drops. At full speed you should have full volts and reducing proportionally, tho some VFD keep the volts constant above a certain speed (usually when using the overdrive, where you can drive the motor faster than rated).


[edit] we were typing at same time... good that you got it going... still worth checking volts at different speeds for future reference. base frequency of 50Hz would apply to normal mains rated motors... i.e. the rated use frequency. Clearly 400 makes sense here with hindsight...

John S
19-09-2010, 12:15 PM
The Chinese spindles are pre wired in delta, can't be changed so you are OK there.
problem with these inverter manuals is everyone has different meanings and descriptions. i also feel that there is a competetion going on between these people to see who can write the most obtuse manual.

Siemens are close to the top.

Local company to me wanted to put a big 15 Kw inverter in a box with everything set and just required a remote control 100 feet away with stop and start buttons, it's called 3 wire control. Anyway their electrician couldn't understand how to do it so they sent it to the local rewinders, they called me in as I used to fit literally 100's of inverters at one time.

The book was A4 and 40 mm thick, I couldn't find anything about 3 wire operation or remote buttons or control, even got the manual up on line to search it. Soooo rang Siemens in London, had to ring them 3 times because they didn't know how and never returned calls.

In the end we got a returned call from Siemens in Germany who explained what parameters needed to be set and it worked I then looked in the book at these parameters and nowhere did it hint that altering these would enable 3 wire so i asked why not a simple diagram to show the 3 wire operation.

I was told no one uses 3 wire operation any more, they switch incoming mains on contactors !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[edit]

Routercnc,
Sorry what I should have done was nip in the workshop and look at what settings were on my router, I have the air cooled version and Fuji inverter but the settings will be roughly the same. I know mine works OK as the Fuji tech set it up when it was delivered.

Sorry.

routercnc
19-09-2010, 10:03 PM
No worries - it's good to know there's a wealth of experience between you two when I get stuck on the electrical side. John, you have a great sense of humour and your take on life often makes me chuckle! Keep up the good work.

The manuals could be much better than they are, and they assume you are a Professional, not home user (it mentions this somewhere in the manual or on the website). They also don't know what you are connecting it up to so can't suggest anything in particular.

It would be good if the Chinese Spindles came with a table showing as many of the relevant parameters as possible, with a setting, and brief description so that you could interpret these to use with any VFD. But alas no. The worrying thing about it all is you are playing with something running off the mains and costing about 600. Smoke could come out at any moment!

For anyone who has stumbled across this post, and is having the same problem, here is the csv file of my working setup (Chinese 1.5Kw spindle with Moeller DV51-322 VFD) which you might be able to correlate over to your VFD.

One final thing, there is a picture in the manual showing the VFD connected to the PC using an RJ45 cable (but obvously no other instructions - that would be too easy). The keypad for the VFD can be removed to reveal an RJ45 socket. I tried plugging a cable between the PC and the VFD, and then running the drive software on the PC, but couldn't get them to talk to each other. No big deal, but would have been interesting to try that out. Has anyone tried this or have any ideas?

ecat
19-09-2010, 10:30 PM
The DV51 manual I'm looking at online says the RJ45 port is RS485, ie it won't work when connected to a PC serial port without a RS232 to RS485 adapter. No biggie, easy enough to find, probably quite easy to make and I'm sure I've seen a USB type serial port that talked 485. I'll hunt something out if you need.

Of course if your DV51 is RS232 or you already have the 'special' cable then you should ignore this, lol.

Page 73, table 20...
RJ54 pin 5 : Send/receive, positive data channel
RJ54 pin 6 : Send/receive, negative data channel

... half duplex differential 5 volts

This one uses the Modbus protocol so you need to ensure the device IDs are set, unless there is a broadcast address which makes things easy :)

RE: Siemens manuals, you should take a look at their automation software + manuals some day :(


Edit:
The manual I'm looking at, lots and lots to read on communications http://www.inverter.co.uk/applications/manuals&datasheets/moeller-dv51-manual.pdf
(http://www.inverter.co.uk/applications/manuals&datasheets/moeller-dv51-manual.pdf)

irving2008
19-09-2010, 10:37 PM
One final thing, there is a picture in the manual showing the VFD connected to the PC using an RJ45 cable (but obvously no other instructions - that would be too easy). The keypad for the VFD can be removed to reveal an RJ45 socket. I tried plugging a cable between the PC and the VFD, and then running the drive software on the PC, but couldn't get them to talk to each other. No big deal, but would have been interesting to try that out. Has anyone tried this or have any ideas?

What were you connecting to on the PC? Although it claims to be a serial connection it isnt the PC's RS232 modem style but RS485 which is a differential master-slave connection and can't be driven by a PC without an RS485 interface card.

[edit] ecat beat me to it again... must type faster...

routercnc
20-09-2010, 08:23 AM
Hi Irving, Ecat,

I just saw the picture in the manual (same as your link ecat), plugged a standard network cable into the RJ45 socket on the VFD and removed my internet cable from my PC and plugged the other end in there. When it didn't work I just left it as it's not vital. However, looking back at the manual it does go on to explain a bit more, so its a case of RTFM !

Will look into an RS485 interface card and decide whether to bother for now, but thanks for your help.

ecat
20-09-2010, 10:16 AM
Nice try :)

This is the Siemens way
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0390928&cm_vc=av_uk

or for us mortals
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=5244413&cm_vc=av_uk

or directly
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-RS485-Interface-Module-/130429887572?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Suppl ies_ET&hash=item1e5e3a2454
http://www.robot-electronics.co.uk/htm/usb_rs485_tech.htm

NB. I've only tried the Siemens device

routercnc
20-09-2010, 01:58 PM
Thanks for that info. Does anyone make a convertor with an RJ45 female socket in, so that the RJ45 cable from the VFD can be plugged into that?

So the chain would be:
VFD > RJ45 cable > [female RJ45 in / convertor box / cable out] > RS485 PCI card in PC.

Otherwise, it seems a bit messy. Using the 16.99 RS solution with the block terminals it would seem that I have to strip out one end of the RJ45 cable, and connect the 2 signal pins. Is that correct?

Also the manual states that resistors are required at each end of the cable, with an note on watching the impedances. Do these solutions above include that feature already?

John S
20-09-2010, 02:11 PM
I have to ask Why ?

You have one inverter that's now running and no more in the pipeline ?

When we used to fit them on the machines we were offered the option of downloading the parameters but to be honest by the time you had gone in and altered 6 or 7 whilst you were testing it really saved no time over getting a laptop, finding the leads etc. and still having to test it.

ecat
20-09-2010, 06:57 PM
Thanks for that info. Does anyone make a convertor with an RJ45 female socket in, so that the RJ45 cable from the VFD can be plugged into that?

So the chain would be:
VFD > RJ45 cable > [female RJ45 in / convertor box / cable out] > RS485 PCI card in PC.

Otherwise, it seems a bit messy. Using the 16.99 RS solution with the block terminals it would seem that I have to strip out one end of the RJ45 cable, and connect the 2 signal pins. Is that correct?

Also the manual states that resistors are required at each end of the cable, with an note on watching the impedances. Do these solutions above include that feature already?

I'm sure you'll find something with a RJ45 socket, may put up the cost. The word 'industrial' means multiply by x where x is between 2 and 10.

How good is your soldering ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Connectors-Multipole/Communication-Connectors/Shielded-PCB-communication-jacks/63744

from what I can tell this is a simple socket, it's certainly cheap. Watch out for cat5 sockets that contain additional components, inductors etc

An RS485 installation should ideally have a resistor at each end of the cable run, you can chain multiple devices over quite a distance, this minimises problems with reflections. Are these resistors necessary for a short run? I can't say for sure, you may get away with one or even none at all. It's worth getting a couple just in case but I see the dv51 lacks a switchable internal resistor - probably a feature on the deluxe model (!!) - so some cable hacking will be necessary to fit a resistor at that end.

routercnc
20-09-2010, 07:31 PM
Hi John,

It's a fair question. I'm new to VFD drives, as you can tell, and when I saw this connection option I wanted to see what was involved. I suspect that I'll probably leave it configured as it is, but if it turned out to need lots of initial tuning then I wanted to know what my options were.

So the answer is because I could, and I'm inquisitive, although I'm not planning to at the moment.


Hi ecat,
Nice info thanks. If I go down this route I think you've covered it for me.

Great stuff, thanks
Barry

brandon_costa
16-02-2011, 08:22 PM
Routercnc,
Sorry what I should have done was nip in the workshop and look at what settings were on my router, I have the air cooled version and Fuji inverter but the settings will be roughly the same. I know mine works OK as the Fuji tech set it up when it was delivered.

Sorry.

I have a similar set up with an older GE AF-300 series drive. I believe FUJI manufactured it for GE. For some reason GE doesn't have anymore FUJI made drives. The closest to GE AF-300 that I could find was FUJI's G11 series.

http://www.ctiautomation.net/FUJI-Inverters.htm