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GeoffV
29-09-2010, 09:31 PM
Hello all.

New to the forum and cnc machine upgrades but with a great deal of experience with Haas and Fanoc controlled lathes and mills especially 3D surface milling. Now retired I am about to upgrade a 190vmc and would appreciate comments on the route to take. I am currently looking to fit a 401 controller from CDE in Luton and three of their Step1 servo controllers.
I still have a CAD/CAM system by Pathtrace which I plan to use to generate the tool paths and the G codes and then import the codes into Easicam to run the mill.

Your comments would be much appreciated.

GeoffV

davethesteam
06-10-2011, 10:22 PM
Hi, I wondered why you were going to change the control system. I ask as I have just bought a 190VMC (not delivered yet) and wondered if I should expect problems. If you have to change then the CDE system looks wonderful, I've bought one for my Conect lathe but have not yet fitted it. if I have to change the VMC then I'll definitely use the CDE system, but I believe (based on what I've seen on the Boxford site) it should run G codes direct down the serial port.

David

i2i
07-10-2011, 03:05 PM
have either of you considered using Mach3 as the controller, and use the existing steppers and drivers.

davethesteam
07-10-2011, 09:29 PM
I did look into Mach3 when I found I had to replace the control system on my Conect lathe, but went for the CDE system based on cost and the difficulty in continued support for parallel ports on PCs. The serial port solution seemed more supportable and easier to add on newer PCs so I went that way. Also CDEs controller comes with a copy of EasiCNC whereas a proper copy of Mach3 is extra cost.

Having said the above I notice that there are some USB to parallel adapters appearing especially designed for Mach3 so that particular objection may become irrelevant.

David

davethesteam
11-10-2011, 10:58 PM
i2i - you've' got me a bit interested. I've had a chat with Boxford and they can't sell me the software unless I'm an educational establishment, which I am not. All this stuff probably went in the bin instead of staying with the mill so unless I can get it running easily (i.e. with EasyCNC or Freemill, neither of which I've tried yet!) I'm going to have to change the control system. So can you advise if Mach3 will handle the following:

1/ Stepper motor indexing tool carousel, valve or motor for clamping and unclamping the tool and programmed sequence to move the spindle to the holder, drop the tool, raise the spindle and then rotate the carousel, drop and reclamp. I ask as I'm going to have to make a carousel as the Boxford one is pneumatic and I don't want to go that route.

2/ interface to DC level speed control for spindle? I know about the parallel port signals for the steppers but how do you drive the spindle?

3/ I need to engrave windows TTFs, with borders and simple line graphics, do you know if there is software available to do this?

Sorry about the list, but I need to be sure I make the right choice, it seems much more complicated driving a mill than a lathe because I need the engraving.

TIA
David

i2i
11-10-2011, 11:08 PM
Hi David, i'll pm you my phone number for a chat.

Swarfing
11-10-2011, 11:13 PM
David i am not familiar with the boxford but if you have parallel interfacing to the machine then give EMC2 a try. There is a lot of support and it will be free to try. If spindle is controlled via DAC conversion then that can be controlled too. Most things are controlled by pins going high or low so somebody should be able to do something for you? does this machine have servos or steppers?

Check out their site and ask a few questions? you never know you may be lucky?

davethesteam
30-10-2011, 06:09 PM
Hi again, many thanks to i2i for the chat and the info, very useful.

However after a great deal of thinking I've decided to stick with the CDE system, mainly for the following reasons:

1/ I want to do rigid tapping of threads down to M3 and the CDE system has a 'many pulses per rev' input and will adjust the feed to match the spindle even if the spindle speed changes, as it inevitably will when the tap picks up the thread. A single pulse per rev is not as good although it would be fine with a tapping head.
2/ I can still retain most of the 190VMC control system using CDEs XC641SC board to generate the correct pulses for the SGS drivers.
3/ The CDE spindle control is built-in with analogue output.
4/ The CDE system has inputs for limit switches in all directions.
5/ I can retain the front panel jog switches
6/ I can retain the front panel feed rate control knob, which I have found very useful on the one CNC machine I get to play with occasionally. It's very handy to be able to slow things down just by reaching for a control knob, although I am sure Mach3 has a similar function it might not be as easy (quick) to operate.

Thanks again to i2i
David

j brougham
31-10-2011, 12:47 PM
Hi All

I have just aquired the same VMC190 and responce from Boxford. As anybody come up with a solution to date?

If you have it would be nice to share info on this problem.

davethesteam
31-10-2011, 09:57 PM
Hi JB,

I think either solution is viable, depending slightly on what you want from the machine. In spite of my choice of the CDE system Mach3 is a well supported system, both the Mach3 and CDE routes are similar in cost, in both cases you can keep the motor drive and stepper drives if they are working properly. Whilst I don't have my machine running, there always seems to be something else to do :smile: , I'm not expecting any problems and apart from the reservations I already expressed it's a case of choosing which way you are happiest with and going with it. If you don't need the rigid tapping that's the major objection out of the way, but do make sure you get hardware with a charge pump circuit to shut down everything if the PC crashes. I was going to go for DIYCNC System4 if I went Mach3, looks good and very good prices.

So do some research, look at prices and choose which way makes you feel best.

David

swood1
05-10-2015, 03:00 PM
Hi David,

How did you get on with your conversion? I have been playing with a smoothstepper board and got my machine running to a point (not got the tool changer running nor the spindle control yet). But have now acquired a new BoB (PMDX-126), so hopefully I can get everything running. Originally I got some cheap drives of Fleebay but I think I can retain the original drives as I believe they are better (the ones I bought seem to keep missing steps atleast I think it's them).

Regards

Steve

davethesteam
07-10-2015, 10:44 PM
Hello Steve,

Regrettably progress has been almost zero. I have all the bits but have not had time to get anything running. Various excuses are available. I am currently designing panels for the VMC and my Conect lathe, then hopefully I can get on with doing something useful towards the rebuild.

I'm interested in the mechanics of the toolchanger. I shall have to make one for my machine as they seem like hen's teeth. I've found a video one on youtube but it doesn't show too much. I am assuming an air cylinder pushes the changer into place and another does the indexing. If you have any photos of the right hand part of the mechanism I'd be grateful, similarly the drive parts of the indexer.

I have lots of things I want to do with this so my lack of progress is infuriating, but the bills must be paid!!

I'm not sure I'd recommend keeping the original drives, I doubt they will microstep. I'm using CDE drives and processor. Go to http://www.eaziform.co.uk/index.php?home to see what he does. I have the M401 board for both machines plus a set of the stepper drives for each machine, but I will probably be using the newer 'Atom' board for the mill as it will be easier to drive the toolchanger, 12 axes etc.

With steppers I believe a lot depends on the current settings which must match the motor and the ramp rates. I am also told microstepping boards can drive motors faster as the transfer the power more smoothly between steps rather than jumping a whole step.





Hi David,

How did you get on with your conversion? I have been playing with a smoothstepper board and got my machine running to a point (not got the tool changer running nor the spindle control yet). But have now acquired a new BoB (PMDX-126), so hopefully I can get everything running. Originally I got some cheap drives of Fleebay but I think I can retain the original drives as I believe they are better (the ones I bought seem to keep missing steps atleast I think it's them).

Regards

Steve

swood1
12-10-2015, 09:54 AM
Hi Dave/all,

I have progressed quite well over the weekend with mine. I wasnt happy with the original setup/hybrid so I bought a better breakout board (PMDX-126), this seems to give all the I/O you could possibly need. I stripped out the Serial Porcessor Board but retained the stepper drive and it's respective board. I have connected the PMDX BoB up to the Stepper board and managed to get all the stepper motors running. Now just trying to connect the BoB to the spindle. I have the original Lenze Spindle Drive and isolation card and have left this completely as it was my thought being that I should be able to control the spindle from my new BoB, although I have been struggling with connecting this up.

I also removed the 3rd Axis Processor Board as this will no longer be required (it looks like it was just feeding step/dir back to the stepper board).

I believe getting the motors running is the easy bit. Getting the spindle, toolchanger and all the switches working are more challenging. Also, I would like to connect the switch control panel back up to the machine so they can be used. We shall see.

Steve

swood1
20-10-2015, 03:02 PM
Hi all,

I have taken a photograph showing the board I have retained (mainly as it has the drives attached). With regards 0v, 12v, -12v, Ang, Dir, Ena. I believe these are all specific to the Spindle. My question is does anyone know if I can connect them directly to my BoB. I have worked out if Enable connector is 12v supply and when connected to the wire on the Lenze it starts the Spindle motor. I have also worked out that if you connect the 'dir' wire to 0v that also kicks the reversing relay.

Any help on how to wire to my BoB would be appreciated as struggling now. If you look in the photo XD, XC, ZD, ZC and CL5, CL6 are all the step, direction for the x, y, z axis which have all connected straight to my BoB.

PS. I have a PMDX-126 BoB and PMDX-107 Isolated Speed Control board although I am not 100% sure I need the 107 board.

16329
Regards

Steven

JAZZCNC
20-10-2015, 04:37 PM
Hi Steven,

You will need the 107 board has it provides the 0-10V analog voltage source. It also provides you with couple of Solid state relays to Control Run and Dir.
(thou strictly speaking these are not needed and you could just use normal outputs.)

I'm not expert on these Boxfords but I'm pretty sure that the +12v & -12V are not for the spindle speed unless the lenze needs analog + & - voltage for speed control and direction.? I think not thou.!!

Personally I think you would connect the Aout on the 107 to Ang and Agnd to 0V thou often the 0V usually as some ref to Analog Gnd like "Ana 0v".?
The Enable and Dir would just be controlled via the relays.

What Card is this your showing.?

swood1
20-10-2015, 05:17 PM
What Card is this your showing.?

Hi JazzCNC,

It's showing the original Boxford card that has my drives attached. However I may move away from this when money permits but at the moment it would be nice to get the machine up and running even if it is slow. I was hoping I could use the machine to mill out the spokes on clock wheels as it takes me ages to cut and file them by hand.

Steve

JAZZCNC
20-10-2015, 05:58 PM
It's showing the original Boxford card that has my drives attached.

Ok I didn't think that was the Lenze board and the reason why I asked.
Can you show the Lenze board and it's connections.

swood1
20-10-2015, 06:23 PM
Hi attached are photos of a board attached to the Lenze with connections (which I assumed was doing the job similar to the 107 board ), I assume I should by pass this board and wire straight into the Lenze. I have also attached a photo showing the side of the Lenze with it's connections. The Lenze I have is the 534.

163301633116332

JAZZCNC
20-10-2015, 07:16 PM
Hi attached are photos of a board attached to the Lenze with connections (which I assumed was doing the job similar to the 107 board ), I assume I should by pass this board and wire straight into the Lenze. I have also attached a photo showing the side of the Lenze with it's connections. The Lenze I have is the 534.

No if I remember correctly from helping Keith with his lathe this board is where you connect the 0-10V and Run signal from pmdx 107. Those 4 wires on the right are 0 & 10V and the + & - Enable for Run.

The Direction is changed by the Relay swaping the polarity of the DC spindle so you control this using the Dir relay on the 107.

Edit: Just be aware you will need to set Mach3 up so there is a pause for spindle to come to halt before reversing output is set other wise damage will be done.

swood1
20-10-2015, 07:41 PM
Are you talking about the green board?

If so the connections on the right read look to read 10v, 5 (i assume volt), 0v, -10v. For some reason the machine was originally wired up using only the 5v and 0v connections. The bottom two wires are black/red for 240v ac. The Lenze seems to have a seperate 240v supply.

JAZZCNC
21-10-2015, 09:35 AM
Are you talking about the green board?

If so the connections on the right read look to read 10v, 5 (i assume volt), 0v, -10v. For some reason the machine was originally wired up using only the 5v and 0v connections. The bottom two wires are black/red for 240v ac. The Lenze seems to have a seperate 240v supply.

Yes the green board.

It's not unusual for some speed controlers to use 0-5V and the Pmdx 107 has this feature if required. However It's more common to use 0-10V.
The Lenze controller can obviously use either.

Agnd on pmdx 107 goes to 0v and Aout to 10V. By default the 107 outputs 0-10v so If you want to use 5V the set the Dip switches on the 107 board to output 5v.

If you want to test this with crude setup then put a 1.5Vdc battery between 0v and 10v. (Or 0-5v spindle will just spin faster thats all)
Then find the enable pins and put a NO switch on them to toggle ON/OFF.
(Warning don't do any of this wiring live has the speed controller could be at mains potential)

swood1
21-10-2015, 10:22 AM
Yes that all makes perfect sense now. I assume I can use a relay for the NO switch, and for that I maybe best going to the Mach3 forum for advice on how to set this up in mach3. I shall have a go at setting it all up this evening. Will let you know how I get on.

Thank you very much for your help with this.

Steve

JAZZCNC
21-10-2015, 10:46 AM
Well depends on how your doing it.? My suggestion below was just for a quick test to prove you have the right connections, which I'm 95% sure is correct.

But if your going to wire it properly then you already have the NO Relay built into the 107 board. That's the purpose of it and it works in conjunction with the Spindle speed.

Setting up in Mach3 is easy enough and you can actually download from PMDX Mach3 XML file which sets it up for you. If you have any trouble here come back and I'll guide you thru setting up mach3.

davethesteam
21-10-2015, 10:29 PM
Hello,

Delayed (sorry) reply to Steve, and anyone else who is interested. I have the manual for the Lenze drive if it's of any use. I also have some other documentation including a wiring diagram and user manual. If anyone is interested I'll put some stuff on my FTP site so it can be downloaded.

You should be able to run the drive with a 10K pot and a switch to see if it works. The terminals have 10V control and ground available but as stated on previous post this lot could be (NB - manual implies it is) at mains potential so be careful!

I have got nowhere with mine, lots of work has come in, enough to last til Christmas. I'll get there one day. :-)

David

swood1
24-10-2015, 06:02 PM
Hi David/Jazz,

Spent some time today connecting the 107 board to the Lenze control board. It looks like the Lenze only allows for 0 - 5v input from the 107, thus i can control it with the 107 (switching to 0-5v setting), and I have got mach3 working with it for on/off. However the spindle speed seems low. Just running a voltmeter over the terminals it measures 4.75v at full speed which seems to be 1000rpm. The terminal marked 10v on the Lenze control board is a 10v output which I am struggling to get my head around.

Steve

JAZZCNC
24-10-2015, 06:15 PM
Did you set the Spindle pulleys up in Mach3 .? You'll find it on Config Menu.
Did you calibrate the 107 has per manual.?

The 10V output could be the supply voltage for if you want to use a Pot.?

swood1
24-10-2015, 06:43 PM
Hi Jazz,

Yes I just calibrated the spindle and I did set the pulleys but just realised I had limited the rpm to 1000. Just increased this which has now sorted it. Thanks again.



Regards

Steven

davethesteam
24-10-2015, 08:51 PM
Yes, the 10V is for the pot. You use the input and ground if your control board outputs voltage and ignore the 10V

David


Hi Jazz,

Yes I just calibrated the spindle and I did set the pulleys but just realised I had limited the rpm to 1000. Just increased this which has now sorted it. Thanks again.



Regards

Steven

swood1
27-10-2015, 11:02 AM
Next question for you both.

Basically there is a spindle sensor, I assume it must be required for the auto toolchanger as it used to rotate the spindle to a specific angle prior to activating the tool changer. So was wondering how I go about determining details of this sensor.

At this moment in time I have found the wires that come from the sensor (pic attached). Wire colours are blue, green, yellow and red. Is there any relevance of wire colours for sensors?

16386

davethesteam
27-10-2015, 12:23 PM
Hello Steve,

Spindle sensor is for feeding back the spindle speed or for tapping synchronisation. Spindle position doesn't matter for the toolchanger. The spindle sensor will probably have 2 wires for LED and another 2 for the (photodiode) detector. The slots in the sensor disk cause the detector to pulse once per slot. Try and read any numbers off the sensor and look for a datasheet on the net. Don't worry about the ones with 5 leads as they have a different detector. They are not expensive to change if you need to.

I can't find any details on my wiring diagrams, sorry

David



Next question for you both.

Basically there is a spindle sensor, I assume it must be required for the auto toolchanger as it used to rotate the spindle to a specific angle prior to activating the tool changer. So was wondering how I go about determining details of this sensor.

At this moment in time I have found the wires that come from the sensor (pic attached). Wire colours are blue, green, yellow and red. Is there any relevance of wire colours for sensors?

16386

JAZZCNC
27-10-2015, 05:12 PM
Has Dave says will be for spindle feed back and the colours will probably be something like this but they could be anything has well.
Red = 5v (For LED)
Grn = 0v(gnd)
Yel = Signal +
blu = Signal -

If it's like most of these Slotted Optical sensors fitted on these machines there will be 2 slotted sensors, one for RPM signal and one for Index signal wired together each with 4 pins. Model number will be something like 306-061
pin1 = Signal +
pin2 = signal -
Pin3 = Led -
Pin4 = Led +

Like Dave said you really need the switch model number.

swood1
10-11-2015, 09:32 AM
Hmm,

I tried to run my spindle in reverse last night. I have changed the settings to give a long delay between start and stop but the spindle only seems to be going one way. I assume it must be something simple I am missing. Also managed to get some photos showing the inside of the spindle and it's sensors. Will post later when I get chance.



Regards

Steven.

JAZZCNC
10-11-2015, 03:36 PM
I tried to run my spindle in reverse last night.

How are you trying to do this.? . . . How do you have it setup.?

swood1
10-11-2015, 04:43 PM
Hi Jazz,

I have it setup basically as originally proposed (ie. Wiring into the green board, where Agnd on 107 goes to 0v, and Aout to 10V), I shall get some pics showing my wiring when I get some time. The spindle works well with Mach3 currently including slow/fast and I can adjust the ramp up etc. Just cant get it to go backwards at the moment.

Regards

Steve

JAZZCNC
10-11-2015, 04:52 PM
Hi Jazz,

I have it setup basically as originally proposed (ie. Wiring into the green board, where Agnd on 107 goes to 0v, and Aout to 10V), I shall get some pics showing my wiring when I get some time. The spindle works well with Mach3 currently including slow/fast and I can adjust the ramp up etc. Just cant get it to go backwards at the moment.

That is just the Speed control of the motor. The Reversing will be done by relays or Contactors that switch the Polarity of the Motor. You control these Contactors using the Relay OUTPUT's on the 107 board. Then in Mach3 you setup which OUTPUT/Relay controls Forward or Reverse.

The time Delay you setup is how long Mach waits before turning that OUTPUT/Relay On/off.

swood1
27-01-2016, 12:14 PM
Hi Jazz,

I have only re-visited the setup of my machine and last week I bought the full version of Mach4 which I now have setup. You stated in your last reply that I need to control the relay to switch polarity of motor. There is a relay on the original board for which if the direction and the 0v wires are connected it flicks the relay over and initialises reverse direction, it would be great if I could work out how to incorporate this switch within the 107. So I suppose my question is should I be using the original relay off the original CNC board or should I use the relay on the 107? If it's the relay on the 107 I dont understand which wire connects to which terminal on my power supply board (simplatron). Looking at the power supply board it does have 5v and 10v but no reverse option so I assume with my current setup the only way to get reverse is via the original relay unless I strip all this stuff out the machine. I attach a couple of photos, the one shows the original wiring the other shows my new wiring (temporary blue wires). Would be nice to hear your thoughts on this.

1739417395

And reversing switch which works (when I join 0v and direction wires).

17396
Steve

uli12us
27-01-2016, 05:05 PM
The white relay is switched via one of the three clear cap relay in the row
with the Lenze drive. I don't know if the middle or the right relay is for left direction. The first is, if the machine doors are closed.

JAZZCNC
27-01-2016, 09:04 PM
So I suppose my question is should I be using the original relay off the original CNC board or should I use the relay on the 107? If it's the relay on the 107 I dont understand which wire connects to which terminal on my power supply board (simplatron).

None connect to the Simplatron board other than 0-10V signal. Control the White Change over relay using the 107 Relays which are controlled Via Mach3 M3/M4 switching the Outputs.
I suppose the Clear Cap relays Uli12us mentions where controlled via the original control software using standard Outputs. Your just replacing those with the ones on 107 which are just connected to dedicated relay Outputs on 107 controlled by Mach3.

uli12us
28-01-2016, 10:49 PM
the white relay RL1 is controlled from one of the 2 relays RL3 or RL4.
these two ar controlled from the main board with the large connector with 12 or so pins. Unfortunately at my machine something is wrong at the moment, the motor turns only left or only right. I must find out why, but not before next week.