trying to improve my board game

[cubikoman]

This is my game. It is being made in China, they do not use cnc.

3756

It is 246mm square. The green fabric is sandwiched between 2 x 4mm ply grids.

A year on and Quality control is still an issue so I'm looking into the possibilty of making the games myself.
Would a CNC machine like the 3040T from cncdiy.org do the job?

By the way, I'm know nothing about CNC machining.

Cubikoman

[h4ppy-chris]

alot more info and good pictures for you cubikoman http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-3040-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE_W0QQitemZ230566326188QQcategoryZ57122QQcmd ZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSI C%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFI CS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D230569007482%26ps%3 D63%26clkid%3D7126089984049345091

[m.marino]

Okay,

Possibly but let's look at a few items of cost $890 = approx' £555 + Shipping of $460 which = approx' 287 + Customs ???? (I promise there will be customs on this) + 20% VAT which will be a minimum of £169. That makes the minimum cost for the item to be £1011 and that is not including customs and the VAT on any tariff that you are charged which could add another 10 to 20 % to the cost before VAT is added on.

Next this is being sold in the US by the Chinese in a hope to capitalize on the growth of the hobby and small shop CNC boom that is happening in the US as well as here (even more so in the US according to family over there). Which means that getting any type of support means you PAY to SHIP it to CHINA and hope they will either fix it or send you a new one. Sorry but been burned a few to many times with products from that part of the world and warranties.

My best suggestion is ask around the board and you might be able to build a basic unit for what you want and need for around that much and in the process get to know what it is you are doing and want done. Also another option is have one of the folks here sit down with you and go over what you need it to do and how often. From there design and build a machine that will do the job and do it well.

These are just some points and ideas, I don't mean to be a jerk hope it does not come across that way. I just don't like seeing people get burned (happened enough to me already in life).

Welcome to the board and ask more specific questions about what you want and what you need the machine to do. You can get a lot of help here but you are going to learn a lot as well. CNC requires a good bit of knowledge to be done safely and to get the most out of it. I have been working at it for a few years now and making good progress. Though i wish I knew a good bit than that I know now. Most of us will gladly share knowledge.

take care and good luck,

Michael

[cubikoman]

Thankyou for the replies so far.

Yes H4ppy Chris I've looked at e-bay, it's where I first saw the 3040T. I've even contacted a few of the recent buyers of the 3040T, so far everyone has been satisfied.
One guy in Finland even blogged about it http://callenblogi.blogspot.com/2011/02/hobby-cnc.html?showComment=1297763313890#c71303730266805 60150 but there are loads of technical terms which go way over my head.

Michael, I hadn't really given to much thought past the headline price. I didn't figure on tariffs + VAT. The price is likely to be nearer £1300... quite a bit more. The support and warranty are even more worrying especially as a novice in the field.
I've seen some videos on YouTube on building a machine but I really can't see myself being that hardcore. I imagine it takes loads of time and patience. I've got loads of patience but I reckon I would never get finished.

Okay, I've thought of a second way. It came to me whilst gardening after reading your replies. Please feel free to shoot this down if you think it is a non-starter..

I have built up a very good relationship with my manufacturers, they are very trustworthy. I pay my manufacturers in China $890 + shipping cost, they purchase the machine on my behalf. Support and warranty will be easier to manage from their end. shipping will be much lower. VAT and tariffs may be eliminated. I get my games made more accurately.

Gavin

[wiatroda]

alot more info and good pictures for you cubikoman http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-3040-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE_W0QQitemZ230566326188QQcategoryZ57122QQcmd ZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSI C%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFI CS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D230569007482%26ps%3 D63%26clkid%3D7126089984049345091
Just wonder how much it would cost to build machine this spec there in UK buying parts from UK suppliers (parts only) ?? Maybe somebody built one of this kind??

[cubikoman]

m.marino hinted that the build cost in the U.K. would be roughly equivalent to the overall costs of importing the machine. How many hours does it take to build a machine though?

[m.marino]

personaly if i could go back id have saved my money and shopped around for one rather than build but thats me,
theres some great deals on the bay on occasion if your patient, save yourself a few quid and pick something up with a bigger cutting area.
two i found today that would have suited me and saved me a small fortune.
these in the links are nothing to do with me but just an example.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/cnc-router-/330529496971?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item4cf517df8b
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CNC-3-axis-machine-genuine-Mach-3-ready-use-/130486260103?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e61965187

Of the two above the Z90LSP is a much better bet for what you are wanting to do. you will want the 84mm Z axis travel with the work you are doing. The other advantage of going this rout is that you have control of production, which helps cut down costs on your end from drop shipping. You can also do small test runs of changes without incurring as large a cost as out sourcing.

I something like that was on the market when I was first looking for a machine I would have bought it that is for sure. On the other hand the knowledge one learns from building will serve anyone well understanding the mechanics behind the tool.

As to set up and running time from getting it in house? Depends, but should not be more than a week. Less if the area is prepared for the machine and you get a copy of the software you are looking to use and start seeing how it functions.

There is gcode software for Inkscape and also Image2code, both which work. Also from the looks of your game, you are not looking for tolerances in the .1mm which some of the more advanced software is capable of.

Just my two pence worth.

Michael

[Jonathan]

I never considered buying a CNC router ready made. For me the interesting bit is to make it and improve it.

Remember when working out the customs charges that they charge the 20% VAT on the value quoted on the customs form, which may well be a lot less than what you actually paid! This happened to me with the X axis rails and ballscrew that I bought together, but the actual amount charge was only a couple of percent of what it cost me.

I'm pretty sure it would end up cheaper to make a similarly capable machine yourself, especially if you're careful with the choice of materials. For instance if you can get away without using aluminium profile that will save a LOT of money. You should certainly buy some of the bits from china/hong kong - spindle and linear bearingse.

You could use the router to cut much nicer joints on the sides of the box. Fingerjoints, or even dovetails are quite easy if you can fix the wood on to the end of the bed 'vertically' and machine the joints with the corresponding cutter. You don't need much travel to do this. You don't actually even need cnc for that...

[wiatroda]

your spot on there,
100% agree. before I started to build/design my own CNC mill I knew nothing about it.

[cubikoman]

The Z90SLP on e-bay eventually went for £1200 + shipping. So, eventually, the U.K. second hand market on e-bay may be the way forward.

However, in amoungst all this chat and research, I found Timbmet http://timbmet.com/ and now await their quote for supply and cnc for my requirements. I know the price will not complete with the Chinese but I hope it may fit my within my pricing structure.

I will, of course, post any progress here.

[m.marino]

Good luck,

Hope you they meet your needs and who knows you still might end up with a CNC machine and doing your own prototyping.

Michael

[i2i]

I have a Denford Microrouter for sale (around A3 size), looks a lot like this newer version.

http://www.denfordata.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2567

[cubikoman]

hi i2i

That looks like a neat piece of kit.

[cubikoman]

Hi all,

So as far as I can make out to get going with CNC I need...

1) A machine.
2) pc tower
3) screen
4) controlling software like mach 3
5) design software like vcarve

This seems to have everything http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180626551252&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

What would be a fair price though?

Gavin

[M250cnc]

Hi all,

So as far as I can make out to get going with CNC I need...

Gavin

Somewhere to cut the panels to fit on your machine table

Somewhere to run the machine

Friendly neighbours due to the NOISE

Learning curve on software

Patience

Time

Tooling

Practical ability to make jigs and fixtures to be able to cut your parts

Phil

[m_c]

Having looked at the site and video for the game, do you really need CNC?

By the looks of it, you need a grid, which could be as easily made from strips of wood, notched + glued together, 4 sides, and a top & bottom.
All that could be done with a table saw, and a router table (cross cut saw would be far safer/more accurate, but cost more to buy), along with a few jigs, so you can machine parts in batches, then assemble them.

[M250cnc]

Having looked at the site and video for the game, do you really need CNC?

By the looks of it, you need a grid, which could be as easily made from strips of wood, notched + glued together, 4 sides, and a top & bottom.
All that could be done with a table saw, and a router table (cross cut saw would be far safer/more accurate, but cost more to buy), along with a few jigs, so you can machine parts in batches, then assemble them.

m_c is right.

But to cut large panels you need a dimension saw with a scribing blade these aren't gonna be cheap.

http://www.kelwoodmachinery.co.uk/index_files/dimensionsaws.htm?gclid=CO7V4f6vnKcCFUgTfAodsVsfdQ

Then to cut a sheet of 8 x 4 you will need a working space of 20 feet minimum a good ceiling height to swing the panels around

To make the sides of your boxes you need to tongue and groove them, all doable on a table saw.

You should also have dust extraction

Its far easier to let someone else do all the work.

Then after laying out all that money who are you gonna blame if they are poor quality.

Phil

[cubikoman]

Somewhere to cut the panels to fit on your machine table

Somewhere to run the machine

Friendly neighbours due to the NOISE

Learning curve on software

Patience

Time

Tooling

Practical ability to make jigs and fixtures to be able to cut your parts

Phil


Good points that I take on board, I don't want to upset the nieghbours!

[cubikoman]

Having looked at the site and video for the game, do you really need CNC?

By the looks of it, you need a grid, which could be as easily made from strips of wood, notched + glued together, 4 sides, and a top & bottom.
All that could be done with a table saw, and a router table (cross cut saw would be far safer/more accurate, but cost more to buy), along with a few jigs, so you can machine parts in batches, then assemble them.

Thanks for looking at the website and your suggestion. The first 100 grids I commissioned were made in a similar way to what you describe, but I can't see myself making the grids by this method again.
Cost is an issue but it is secondary to time. If I take production into my own hands I will need a quick way to produce a 1,000 games. I'm thinking that CNC would be like having a second employee doing the time consuming grid whilst I get on with the long list of other operations.

My next game http://members.webs.com/MembersB/EditPage/index.jsp?pageID=203738312 could be improved by having 1mm grooves cut into the ply to create lines. So looking to the future CNC would probably save my marriage!

Gavin

[cubikoman]

m_c is right.

But to cut large panels you need a dimension saw with a scribing blade these aren't gonna be cheap.

http://www.kelwoodmachinery.co.uk/index_files/dimensionsaws.htm?gclid=CO7V4f6vnKcCFUgTfAodsVsfdQ

Then to cut a sheet of 8 x 4 you will need a working space of 20 feet minimum a good ceiling height to swing the panels around

To make the sides of your boxes you need to tongue and groove them, all doable on a table saw.

You should also have dust extraction

Its far easier to let someone else do all the work.

Then after laying out all that money who are you gonna blame if they are poor quality.

Phil

Hi
Poor quality is one of the issues I'm having to contend with at the moment. Production in the far east is problematic, quality control, lead time, communication, fluctuating exchange rates, etc. I'm now getting the urge to take responsibility for manufacture of key components. It will be a steep learning curve but I can't see how I would produce something worse than what I'm already getting.

Gavin

[cubikoman]

Hi all,

I just collected a cnc machine that I won on ebay.

Initially I will be working with 3.6mm ply. I need to cut out 60mm circles, 72mm squares and make 1mm grooves.

A 3mm end mill came with the machine is it a good tool to cut ply?

I imagine it is better to get the tooling set up right before starting to try and make cuts so can anyone advise me...
1)what tool would be best to cut out circles/squares in 3.6mm ply?
2)What tool would be best to cut a 1mm wide groove, 1.5mm deep
3)What speed should be set for the spindle?
4)What speed should I set for the spindle to track around the toolpath?
5)Can 3.6mm be cut in one pass?

thanks,
Gavin

[Jonathan]

what machine did you get in the end gavin? if you dont mind me asking.

We can't safely answer question 5 without knowing!

1) If you want to do it in one cut, then at least 3mm I think.
2) Does it have to be only 1mm? 1mm tools are not cheap and your feedrate will be limited. If you really need a 1mm groove then a circular saw/slitting saw would be faster.
3) Depends on the size of the tool. In general the smaller the tool the higher the spindle speed. If the tool gets too hot reduce the spindle speed. Google it.
4) Depends on the diameter of the tool, depth of cut and all sorts, again google it.
5) Depends on how rigid your machine is. But probably yes.

[cubikoman]

I don't mind chip :-)

I won this routout machine... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

which meant I finally got round to putting a lock on the shed.

I should be able to tweak the game to allow for a 2mm groove. Anyway, I just ordered a 2mm left-hand spiral flute from Drill-service.com. Can you tell I'm eager to get going?

[m.marino]

Are far as cost on 1mm endmills and any wood based cutting, I would strongly suggest Sorotec, www.sorotec.de as a source that is not extremely expensive and let them know if you are VAT registered. The smaller the diameter the less you can cut in one pass and speed is still and issue. With a 2mm single flue I am cutting at a max of 400mm/min with a cutting area of 1.25mm depth and .75 mm step over.

If you are willing to invest a bit for some tools to help you over the learning curve, I would strongly suggest G-Wizard as it has helped me get a much better grip and understanding of feeds and speeds.

I, in no way benefit from the mention of these companies and am only a very satisfied client of both.

Michael

[cubikoman]

I will try those values for the 2mm bit. What is step over?

Drill-service.co.uk seems fairly reasonable. Does anyone here buy cutting bits off ebay?

[Jonathan]

I will try those values for the 2mm bit. What is step over?

Drill-service.co.uk seems fairly reasonable. Does anyone here buy cutting bits off ebay?

Step over is the distance you move the cutter into the material for each subsequent cut. It defines the width of the cut. It is often expressed as a percentage of the cutter diameter.

However for this particular excercise you're just cutting a slot in one pass, so stepover isn't really relevant. Effectively it's 100% stepover though...

I've bought the odd cutter off eBay. Nice and cheap except for the postage and sellers do seem to insist on using fast postage when, personally, I don't think it's always necessary!

[cubikoman]

Update; cut a few boards, wow this machine is brilliant...broke a couple of bits...

This is now a CNC project so I will post updates elsewhere.

Thanks for all the help, I know I'm going to need loads more too!

[ptjw7uk]

As your learning try this link http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/2333-Router-Cutters?p=16590#post16590 the 1/8" cutters JohnS showed are superb for the money and at only a £1 almost throw away!!
peter

[cubikoman]

http://www.facebook.com/find-friends/browser/?rpix=1#!/pages/Cubiko-Games/98088482889

Thanks everyone for your help.