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m.marino
09-08-2011, 12:40 PM
Okay folks,

Starting the design and materials work on a new CNC Mill. Reasons are the current kit that I use does not have a long enough table, or Z travel, and a few other issues. So instead of trying to improve on what I have (though I will be doing that as well in the process); looking at building from base.

Size looking at is an X between 750mm to 1.5m, an Y of 500mm, Z of 150 - 175mm and adding an A with the ability to handle between 100 - 125mm dia. max.

Currently looking to go with profile rails for the guides. drive will be by either ballscrews or trapezoid screws (down to cost and how tight I can get tolerances for the work I am doing).

Looking at move over to a control spindle from the Kress I use on the current set up.

Structure is an area that I am still looking at as extruded has good points as does box frame. Also doing design work and as things move will be posting the designs up and then as things move into real pieces will be adding those as well.

On the router currently in use will be raising the Z and converting to anti backlash nuts on all three axi' which means a rebuild of the Y and Z. The X axis will just need a mounting bracket milled and taped for it to be converted.

I will be asking questions along the way as while I have learned alot there is always more to learn.

Michael

m.marino
16-08-2011, 06:13 PM
And Life marches in....

While working on the design for the new machine, I am having to improve the current machine do to production requirements. Sooooooo......... I have a couple of questions. The machine I am working on improving on is a Marchant Dice A3 Trapezoidal screw driven model. I am working on improving the rigidity and milling speed. I am looking at a dumpsterCNC anti-backlash nut for the 12mm X axis and would like folks opinions on that idea. Drawing up a mounting bracket in ViaCAD v8 and wondering if 6mm (or 1/4") thick alli' will be thick enough to transfer the force down to the cross brace. Main reason for going this route is that while business is picking up I really need to be a bit tight on the expenses side of things (which is why upgrading this unit has become first priority instead of second).

I will post a jpeg of the drawing in a bit and could use any input you folks want to give.

Thanks ahead of time and hope to pay it back or forward sometime soon.

Michael

m_c
17-08-2011, 02:26 AM
Any chance of that drawing?

And did you mean to say X-axis for the 6mm plate, as in the process of trying to figure out where the plate is going, I found your old thread where you say the X-axis is a 16mm screw...

m.marino
17-08-2011, 03:52 PM
Any chance of that drawing?

And did you mean to say X-axis for the 6mm plate, as in the process of trying to figure out where the plate is going, I found your old thread where you say the X-axis is a 16mm screw...

m_c,

Still working on the drawing (need to get product work done so drawing is going to be a bit). What I am looking at is using the 12mm Trapezoid screw that is on the mill and fitting on of DumpsterCNC's anti-Backlash nuts on it. Using a piece of angle Alli' that is approx' 6mm thick and taping the holes on the flange to 5mm (they come at 4.39mm) and then adding a lock washer and nut on backside of that. bolting it to the cross member that moves the X axis via four bolts clamped into the rails of the alli' extrusion. This should give enough strength to hold it in place and still stay inside the 40mm of space I have to work with.

I am working with ViaCAD v8 and new to it. So some of it is taking a bit to learn as I am drawing it. Good part is being able to put in threading on the holes and build the spring for the anti-backlash nut.

Well hope that explains things a bit better.

Side note switched the steppers to parallel from series as getting the new 3A boards from Roy at DIYCNC. I am suprised at the speed increase even at 2.5A (max the current driver boards can put out). Looking forward to the 3A boards and the enclosure kit for my BOB. Which will help in dust control and tidy things up a bit.

Michael

m_c
18-08-2011, 02:17 AM
Given the cutting forces involved, I'd say the angle should be sufficient. Even if it does flex, I'd suspect any flex would be less than backlash in the existing nut.
However, if flex does become a problem, provided there is enough room, you could add a couple triangular pieces to brace the angle, using countersunk screws on the underside it can still be bolted onto the cross brace.

Other option would be to get a mount machined from a bit solid bar.
I'd offer to help with any machining, but I'm of on a fortnights holiday in 10days, and already have a queue of jobs I'm needing to do before I go!

m.marino
18-08-2011, 10:30 AM
m_c,

Thanks for the offer and I might take you up on it after you get back from the holidays. As right now swamped in getting product done and designing 4 new combs for chromatic harmonicas (different makes and reed count) cover sets plus variation for 6 different chromatic models, plus I have have clients work in bound that I need to have everything ready for and then add building concertinas to ship to folks as demo's and to see response in sales. Let's just say the days are busy and long (but I like them that way or I get bored and depressed, better to have things to do).

Folks,

Would 12mm thick alli' with precession rails (Hiwin type) 15-20mm be strong enough for a Y axis of 410mm (current machine) 600mm (project machine). Looking at bolting it to the uprights for the gantry as don't have access to welding equipment and from what I can figure 3-4 bolts per side should be strong enough (spaced to spread the load) looking at having having 100mm between centres on the rails with a 12mm Trapezoid or 10mm ballscrew (depending on what I can afford at the time) driving the Z body on it. Z would have 150mm travel and looks to be 15mm precession rails with a ballscrew. The Z would be 150mm wide to help decrease some of the torque forces, even though that will decrease my available travel in Y (the trade off is worth it to me). Any and all opinions would be welcomed even.

Michael.

m_c
18-08-2011, 01:03 PM
12mm alli is pretty substantial, and I'd hazard a guess it would be fine, but I'm sure others will have a better idea than me!

Regarding the rails, I was actually reading about them the other day (can't remember if it was on HSM, CNCZone, or the Mach Forum!), and the general consensus is most hobby builds are majorly over engineered, as there was some big commercial machine running 15mm rails for the long axis. The only reason I was reading about them, is I've got plans for a new machine bubbling away in my mind, and linear rails are featuring.

Jonathan
18-08-2011, 07:12 PM
Regarding the rails, I was actually reading about them the other day (can't remember if it was on HSM, CNCZone, or the Mach Forum!), and the general consensus is most hobby builds are majorly over engineered, as there was some big commercial machine running 15mm rails for the long axis. The only reason I was reading about them, is I've got plans for a new machine bubbling away in my mind, and linear rails are featuring.

Looks like we've been reading the same things. I agree that if you calculate based on the load ratings they seem plenty strong enough...I'm going to use them on my machine unless some >15mm turn up cheap on eBay. I think that's the reason most people use bigger, because it's what was available at the time on eBay.
You may need to watch out for the moment ratings, though for the size of your machine it should be fine, just space the rails out on each axis as far as you can.

(That's a bit vague I know, I can give some numbers/examples if required)

m.marino
18-08-2011, 09:53 PM
Jonathan are talking to m_c or me on the rail spacing issue? Also you what would you charge to mill the bracket we are talking about for me? Well back to working on the drawing and setting things up as need be.

Michael

Jonathan
18-08-2011, 10:47 PM
Jonathan are talking to m_c or me on the rail spacing issue?

I was talking in general really. On the axis the Z-axis is attached to in particular (Y in your case), the further apart the bearings are the lower the force on each when cutting and (to a lesser extent) accelerating. If you take moments in the X-Z plane then it's pretty obvious why...


Also you what would you charge to mill the bracket we are talking about for me? Well back to working on the drawing

I'm not so sure what's required. I can let you know when you've done the drawing...

m_c
19-08-2011, 02:08 AM
If I've worked it out right, all that's needed is a bit angle, with four holes on one side for bolting to the cross brace, then on the other side a big hole (21.5mm) for the anti-backlash nut to pass through, with another two holes for bolting the nut on via the flange (having looked at the dumpsterCNC site, I'm guessing you're for the 25mm cut-down flange option?).
Something suitable could be made with a pillar drill, a couple drill bits, and a hole saw.

Regarding mounting the nut, I'd use a couple nyloc nuts with plain washers to spread the load. I'd also put the bolts through from the alloy side, tighten them into the flange, then use the nylocs to make sure the bolts can't move.

Jonathan
19-08-2011, 07:18 AM
Something suitable could be made with a pillar drill, a couple drill bits, and a hole saw.


Yes, I was thinking that so thought there must be more to it.

m.marino
23-08-2011, 05:07 PM
Okay,

Let's see if I can get these files up properly.



43754374

Sorry that they are jpeg's as it would not let me load the .dwg or .iges file format. That is the bracket I designed to go with a dumpsterCNC anti backlash nut for a 12mm trapezoid leadscrew. Clearance is only 40mm in height. Any opinions???

Also Checking on available box Aluminium in the area but is looking like I have a really good source of off cuts (some over 2 metres) of 12mm Aluminium plate. Any and all views would be greatly appreciated.

Michael

Jonathan
23-08-2011, 05:46 PM
How are you joining the two pieces together? That joint needs to be strong so that an axial force on the screw does not bend the bracket. I'd be inclined to either make it out of one piece, or use something thicker for the vertical part.



Also Checking on available box Aluminium in the area but is looking like I have a really good source of off cuts (some over 2 metres) of 12mm Aluminium plate. Any and all views would be greatly appreciated.

Excellent, can I have some :wink:?

m_c
23-08-2011, 06:55 PM
Looks fine. If you can't find a bit suitable angle, it could be roughed from a bit solid alu with minimal effort.

Or if you could survive with steel, I might even have a bit suitable angle lying around (I think I came across some 2 or 3" angle during a search for something else the other week!).



Excellent, can I have some :wink:?
I'm nearer and can collect :naughty:

m.marino
23-08-2011, 09:26 PM
The idea was for it to be of a single piece of either angle or mill from block. That should insure the rigidity of the piece. As far as the Aluminium is concerned drop me a line folks and will try to arrange something. I need to be going down there any how to see if they have any square tube stock that could be drilled and bolt together for the new frame.

Looking through old threads hear for sources of materials and looking like I just might be able to get both up and running (which would be great as I have work to keep two to three mills going for the next month and a half at least).

Still building and still kicking.

Michael

m.marino
23-08-2011, 10:22 PM
What took so long and what is taking time. Is a drawing I am working on to improve my skill working with the new program. I really like ViaCAD 2D/3Dv8 for CAD work over the program I was using. To give you an idea of what I was doing here is a Jpeg of the Nut.4382

So that is one of the projects I am working on. Also designing replacement combs for Bends Chromatic harmonicas (48's,56's,64's)as the business closed their doors down in Brazil (but have not sold off their stock so who knows). Hohner Meisterclasse acrylic comb and once the new mill is built acrylic mouth pieces for the Hohner and Suzuki Bass harmonicas. As well as slowly plugging along at reverse engineering the Hohner harmonetta (which I am now considered and OEM parts provider for that instrument by Hohner). That and other odd bits and pieces. Then milling them. Oh, yeah and jigs to make for more accurate set up.

Michael

m.marino
24-08-2011, 04:17 PM
Okay,

Ordering the 2 - 12m anti backlash nuts from Dumpster. One for the 12mm on X axis and one for the Y axis. Looking at getting a piece of 12 Aluminium to go across the gantry to add a bit of ridgeness and boring out the section of Z axis that rides on Y so that it will accept 16x20x30 mm Oilite bushings to it and most likely do the same to the bushings on the Z itself to get less flex and better wear as the current bushings are looking to need replacing and with less then 300 hours cutting time on the machine, I think upgrading if possible would be the wise way to go. Only need to drill out the 30x120 extrusion to accept the new bushings.

Also putting in new Bearings on the end and switching to stainless steel with rubber seals and see how that goes. Still working on the new machine and have bought the Z ball screw from Gary at Zap and just need to earn the rest of the money to buy the parts (also need to draw up my ideas and let you folks have a field day with them).

Anyway take care folks and have a great day. More information as it happens.

Michael

m.marino
26-08-2011, 06:30 PM
Okay on a space and accuracy level, are using Oilite type bushings worth doing over linear bearings? This is doing improvement and part rebuild of a Marchant Dice MDL-TR-2 gantry router. I am building a new Z for it so that I can mount the A axis I have for it on board and starts being able to cut both sides of an item and let the machine do the flip. Going to linear bearings takes about 30mm of travel out of Y due to the required widening of the Z body to allow for the bearing blocks. On the other hand it will increase smooth play of travel.

So, any and all input as I am really up in arms on it and it is bottle necking this point in the design structure.

Thanks for all the input you have given.

Michael

m_c
26-08-2011, 07:53 PM
It will be far easier to get linear bearings accurate.
Oilite bushes would have to be sized (either via boring, or reaming) after being installed to ensure accuracy, as oilite bushes are pretty soft things and will deform during installation, unless you use an accurately sized mandrel to press them in (even then chances are they'll deform slightly)

JAZZCNC
26-08-2011, 09:02 PM
Okay on a space and accuracy level, are using Oilite type bushings worth doing over linear bearings?



Hi Micheal,

Dont do it.!. . They dont even compare in the slightest. Even with the best alignment and boring, reaming etc they still dont hold candle to linear bearings and will wear far quicker, far too much hassle IMO.

If you do go with linear rail drop me a PM before you buy I probably can help.?

m.marino
29-08-2011, 11:56 PM
Okay with the advice given and working in ViaCAD to get things set up would like folks opinion of the following set up for a Y Z axis set up.
4390

The dimension marks are left over from getting the height right from the table surface and still having space for the 4th axis.

So please folks opinions. This is not complete. The Y is a little to long (was learning how to download files from Hiwin, great set up they have) and the screws on the Z and the Y are yet set in, nor is the anti back lash nut for Y (it will be between the two rails).

There are 4 carriages holding the Z axis to the Y even though you only see 2.

opinions please.

Michael

JAZZCNC
30-08-2011, 12:25 AM
Put the rails on the front plate and the bearings on the back plate. This way the rails help stiffen the front plate.
The carriages then go low on the backplate and it makes for a very stiff z axis with max support where it's needed.! close as possible to the cutting end.!

Edit: Also if you pocket the bearings into the back plate slightly you regain some of the lost stand off from gantry. Also you can use one of the pocket edges as a datum ref point for alignment of the bearings. If you also do the same with the rails into the rear of the front plate, (but not quit as deep) this as the same affect and also another datum ref edge.
The net affect of both brings the stand off from the Y axis down slightly and also creates accurate ref edges to work from which are essential for setting up profiled linear rails correctly.

Hope this makes sense.! If not just ask and i'll try to explain better.

Jonathan
30-08-2011, 06:43 PM
Put the rails on the front plate and the bearings on the back plate. This way the rails help stiffen the front plate.
The carriages then go low on the backplate and it makes for a very stiff z axis with max support where it's needed.! close as possible to the cutting end.!

If the rails are contributing significantly to the stiffness of the material you are using for the Z-axis then that material should be made thicker/stronger. Still definitely put the rails on the front plate, but primarily for the second reason - the supporting carriages are closer to the bed.

JAZZCNC
30-08-2011, 07:28 PM
If the rails are contributing significantly to the stiffness of the material you are using for the Z-axis then that material should be made thicker/stronger. Still definitely put the rails on the front plate, but primarily for the second reason - the supporting carriages are closer to the bed.

Not sure why you felt the need to post that.? . . . My point was the rails on front plate is much stronger way and no where did I suggest useing it prop up a flimsy front plate.!! . . . Thou if we are splitting hairs then a correct design should factor in all materials plate rails etc to give optimum strength without over engineering which wastes money and effiecency.

Bottom line rails on front is stronger.!!

m.marino
30-08-2011, 07:44 PM
Okay will do rework with those ideas in place and try to add the rest of the pieces in place as well so that it makes sense. I have to say that i really like working with ViaCAD 2D/3Dv8 (yes I am an unpaid broken record but it is soooo easy to get things right where you want them and surfacing is extremely easy. Will make the changes and see what other gems and insight you will be willing to teach me.

Michael

Jonathan
30-08-2011, 08:00 PM
no where did I suggest useing it prop up a flimsy front plate.!!

This, in my opinion, suggests that:


Put the rails on the front plate and the bearings on the back plate. This way the rails help stiffen the front plate.

Either way obviously I agree that rails on the 'front' is strongest. It's one of a number of things virtually everyone does wrong to start with, myself included. It also reduces the length of material required for the Z-axis. The only disadvantage I can think of is that you're also having to move the stepper motor and screw against gravity ... but that's almost certainly negligible.

Ideally you should also machine a slot in the plate for the rails so that one of them can be clamped in place. The same is true for the bearing blocks. If the machine crashes it helps stop them move out of alignment. I don't know if you have a milling machine though?



Not sure why you felt the need to post that.?

Perhaps there wasn't much point. I thought I was reinforcing/clarifying it.

JAZZCNC
30-08-2011, 09:09 PM
This, in my opinion, suggests that:



Ok obviously miss understanding but either way flimsy or strong it's fact the rails would help support.!

First let me say dont be fooled by the lack of post's, I've been building diy cnc machines both for my self and others for meny years so I know very well all the newbie mistakes and pitfalls I just havent posted on here.

Regards the down side and your thinking you have to move the steppers with the front plate. It makes no differnce rails on rear or front both you can still have the motor static with the right design. Your right thou the difference is negliable.
I have 2 machines a large and small the large machine use's the moving screw,stepper arrangement with nema34 stepper and the smaller machine use's the static stepper,screw with nema23 stepper both work equally well. The only difference or advantage to the moving stepper arrangment is that it use's slightly less material because you dont need the high backplate but again the saving is negliable.

Eh eh now here's my chance to point out or clarify something you said.!!! . . . When using Profiled linear rails it's important you have a datum referance edge but not for helping stopping them move when crashed, the main importantance is for the alignment when installing. The point being that you fasten one rail tightly up against the referance edge using the correct edge of the bearing or rail depending in which orientation you have them ( they do have a right and wrong way).
Then you tighten the opposing or what I call floating rail or bearing losely then slowly move the gantry or table along the rail nipping the bearing or rail as you go along feeling for any tight spots and losening adjusting the floating rail or bearing to eliminate tight spots. . . . Simplezzs.!

JAZZCNC
30-08-2011, 09:15 PM
Why do my posts keep getting sent to the moderator for approval.???? . . . There's nothing wrong in any of them. . . Arghh My pet hate is sensorship.!

Jonathan
30-08-2011, 09:21 PM
Why do my posts keep getting sent to the moderator for approval.???? . . . There's nothing wrong in any of them. . . Arghh My pet hate is sensorship.!

This censorship is applied to all new users now by the moderators. Most likely to reduce people signing up purely for advertising or that sort of thing. Must be annoying, unfortunately I can't help.

Jonathan
30-08-2011, 10:33 PM
Ok obviously miss understanding but either way flimsy or strong it's fact the rails would help support.!

Of course, but if it's helping significantly you're probably doing something wrong.


First let me say dont be fooled by the lack of post's, I've been building diy cnc machines both for my self and others for meny years so I know very well all the newbie mistakes and pitfalls I just havent posted on here.

I've read plenty of your posts on CNCzone. Well, I'm pretty sure it's you. It is obvious from the few posts that you have made here that you know what you're talking about! I have not posted on CNCzone since 5 years ago as I figured I would never have time to do any machining if I did it too much.


Regards the down side and your thinking you have to move the steppers with the front plate. It makes no differnce rails on rear or front both you can still have the motor static with the right design. Your right thou the difference is negliable.

Fair enough, me not thinking...


When using Profiled linear rails it's important you have a datum referance edge but not for helping stopping them move when crashed, the main importantance is for the alignment when installing.

Agreed, the more important factor is to attain good alignment of the rails. It also explains why the sides of the bearing blocks are ground. The reason I said about stopping movement after a collision is that I remembered reading it here, page 13 where it mentions that 'it is possible that the rails and the blocks will be displaced when the machine is subjected to vibrations and impacts':

http://www.hiwin.nl/DownloadCenter/files/G99TE14-1006.pdf



Then you tighten the opposing or what I call floating rail or bearing losely then slowly move the gantry or table along the rail nipping the bearing or rail as you go along feeling for any tight spots and losening adjusting the floating rail or bearing to eliminate tight spots

That's what I did and subsequently checked it with a dial indicator.

I won't pretend to be any sort of expert on profile rails - I've only just researched them and bought mine. I still may get some for my X-axis (2000mm rails). I gather you know of a good source?

m.marino
31-08-2011, 03:36 PM
Jonathan and CNCJAZZ,

Thanks you have given me a huge amount of insight into improvements for the gantry section on the rebuild and also on the new build (once the funds are in for that). I am having to replace the end bearings on the one I have and am looking at either getting replacements for now (to have the mill running and to get work done) or get the bearings that I am looking at getting for the rebuild. Think will go with a getting what will let me produce product and then buy the others as I build. Need to be able to make money to build better (more precise) machine.

Michael.

JAZZCNC
31-08-2011, 04:23 PM
Agreed, the more important factor is to attain good alignment of the rails. It also explains why the sides of the bearing blocks are ground.



Also Jonathan If you look carefully the rails are ground or have ref edge not just the blocks. . . Very easy to miss.!

JAZZCNC
02-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Here ya go Lads. . . I knew I had some pics of a Z axis I'd made (really should take more pics of stuff made!!) that used linear rails on front plate with stationery motor, Also with pockets for bearings to give datum ref and slightly recovers some lost stick-off.!

It also inverts the stepper and drops it down the backside out the way connecting to screw with belts and pulleys. The number 1 looking bit in the pics is for a drop down bracket that attach's to the y axis screw.

Also a pic showing the Yaxis stepper again inverted in on it's self, reason being this machine was designed for small spaces or sheds so wanted to minimise foot print and eliminate any sticking out bits, The X axis does the same with everything under the bed out the way. . . Nothing protudes past the frame foot print.



In the pic showing rails n bearings they are just lent against the backplate for the pic, the bearings actually go to the bottom of the back plate. They also need cutting to length. . . . . ( Jonathan those are 20mm SBC bearings n rail.)

m.marino
05-09-2011, 10:48 AM
Okay,

Now you really got me thinking of ways to not only improve what I have but make the new one even better. Also with the two carriage stacked like that on the Z I would assume that you need to increase the length of plate to allow the travel I want to attain. Which might not be a problem. Though would only one set of carriages on each side for the current rebuild be enough with only 150 -175mm of travel.

Hope to get some drawings done tonight and trying to figure out a space issue with the required space for the Z leadscrew and backlash nut/mounting bracket versus the height that the rails and carriage require to function. Looks like I will be needing to mill some stock down with not only datum slots but also with channel to allow space for the screw. I have access to 12mm Alli' for sure and might have access to thicker. Having said that would milling the 12mm down to a 6mm channel in the centre reduce strength below the desired levels? I am still learning metal and it tolerances and what it can and can not do. Which is different then what i do with metal for making reeds in many fashions as there you want the metal to bend.

Michael

JAZZCNC
05-09-2011, 12:39 PM
Hi Micheal,

First depends what you intend to do with the machine regards the plate thickness. I've made various differant Z axis but only one that was made with thin plate. This had a long 220mm travel and was mainly intended to cut soft materials like foam,plastics etc. It was made with with cast off's and scrounged parts that the owner and me between us gatherd (Hence thin plate was used).
It's not ideal for cutting hard materials but the guy does cut every thing from foam to Ali with it. . . It's a belt driven machine as well, very quick and accurate.!! . . I love this little machine "The Cavemill" was so much fun to make and resonably cheap being made mainly from scrounged bits. Attached a few pics of the Z axis and some stuff it's cut.

I love making "Junk yard dog's" I'm just finishing off another I'll post a pic of.

Personaly I dont like to use anything below 19mm for a Z axis that is intended to cut hardwoods or Ali. If your using profiled rail and intend to cut datum points and slots for screw etc then you really do need the 19mm else your weakening the structure. Again depends on intended use but for hardwoods and Ali using Profiled rail then 19mm is minimum IMO.
Also I wouldn't recommend using 1 carraige per side no matter what thickness material, it's false economy because it will flex badly and you'll end up making it over again.! . . Esp at the travels your wanting.
Imo the Z axis is one if not "THE" most important parts on the machine, remember doesn't matter how strong you build the rest of the machine if the Z aixs flexs you'll have BAD results.!! . . . It's also one area everybody new under estimates.

Regards travel most of my Z axis tend to be between 120-150mm the one in the previous pics had 150mm if I remember correctly.??

Attached a few pics of Zaxis made all ways. All built depending on machine and material requirements. Hope these will help you design something to full fill your needs.

Cheers.

PS: The upstands on the junkyard pics are temps just for affect to give idea too intended owner and have since been made lot shorter.

Edit: Added Cavemill pics of stuff cut.

m.marino
10-09-2011, 11:45 PM
Folks been buried in work.

Still chugging along but clients come first. Really need to get the rebuild on the first machine done though and if possible the second built as already have product that will need the length in it and have clients that want to buy. Why, oh, why do i get myself into these positions. Wish me luck and have the new drawings and hopefully more useful information up soon . Also mc_cnc I will try to drop you a line to see how to catch up with you.

have a good night folks need sleep.

Michael

m_c
11-09-2011, 09:50 PM
I know all about those positions, but right now the brain is shutting down!
All I know is I woke up at 7am on saturday on the west coast of Canada, and I'm now sat at home having had about 2 hours sleep on the plane.

m.marino
17-09-2011, 05:10 PM
Okay,

Here is tha much promised and hard to get around to drawing of v2. You will notice that it is not complete. I am still working away at it but would like some input. Will let you know any other problems might be having in the near future. Due to problems (flex of Y axis and Z axis dropping up to 1.5mm from a set position) this rebuild has to be done like yesterday and been working on it the last three days non-stop. This is what has made far enough to be label a version and put before you folks for opinion and evaluation.4546

Any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated as will be burningthe candle in to the long hours. Need this done to get product back up to stocking levels for a convention at the end of October. Yes thing s do go wrong at just the wrong time. Yes I know I need to increase the rail for Z to get 150mm.

Anyone wanting a DWG, STP, IGES file of this or the completed gantry router let me know.

Michael

blackburn mark
17-09-2011, 05:56 PM
id think about putting both Y axis rails top and bottom or you are going to lose valuable space...

the way you have them now will have your spindle over hanging further than it needs to buy quite a long way

try to keep your spindle as far back as possible... every little bit will help, it may not alter the flex by much but im pretty sure that each little fraction of stiffness you save will reduce sympathetic resonance or vibration by a sh*t load

good luck:smile:

JAZZCNC
17-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Due to problems (flex of Y axis and Z axis dropping up to 1.5mm from a set position)

The Zaxis dropping most likely won't be due to weak design problem but more probably an electrical problem, possibly a weak or under powered motor thou you'll still have the same problem if not changed.

Other than what marks pointed out then there's not much more to see or say.

m.marino
17-09-2011, 06:51 PM
Okay but then comes placement of the lead screw, as don't have the funds for a new ballscrew at present. Folks I am really aprreciative of your input it is just that I have a rather large amount of work that I have been finishing that was supposed to go to this convention for clients who are interest and some that are closed sales IF I get the product there.

Again thanks and will try to get some revised drawings up later tonight.

Michael

blackburn mark
17-09-2011, 07:30 PM
but then comes placement of the lead screw, as don't have the funds for a new ballscrew at present.


which one Z or Y screw? i thought you already had them??.. they will already be as long as they are :heehee:

4547
there are ways of squeezing them in

m.marino
18-09-2011, 12:04 AM
Okay Mark and Jazz,

Here is an idea for the rails on the Y axis
4548

The leadscrew will run down the channel between the two rail supports and the back plate will be bolted to it and the the uprights. At that point I think I will be able to move the spindle closer to centre that way.

I am going to get some sleep and get on this tomorrow. Thanks for all the input folks and will work on things to the best possible.

Michael

m.marino
18-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Okay,

Further drawing, as promised. With additional information.

Uprights of gantry are currently looking to be either 20 to 25mm (or 3/4 to1") thick. The rails are bolted down to 25 x 38mm bars that are going to be bolted to the back plate (12mm). The Z base plate is 20 (or 3/4") . I hope the way I had the jpeg done allows folks to see more of what is going on without getting a headache. This is a rough sketch done with ViaCAD 2D/3D and no I don't own any part of the company nor have vested interest in it.
4560

Any and all opinions are please.

Michael

blackburn mark
18-09-2011, 04:33 PM
the preportion of flex along the Y axis looks like it will be huge compared to the X and Z

if the aspect ratio on your gantry absolutly has to be that tall id be tempted to go for a fixed gantry (heavily made) with a moving bed

m.marino
18-09-2011, 04:46 PM
I agree,

But space is an issue. I am thinking of using an old bridge builders trick and bolts some strengthening rails to the outside to help add rigidity. overall hight is 475mm will have the distances shortly between it and the rails it will run on. still working on it. design gets to be nightmarish after awhile.

Michael

m_c
18-09-2011, 04:56 PM
You could always build tall sides for the base, to reduce the distance between the x-axis supports and the y-axis.
It would mean that when you're machining on the base, the cutter would effectively be working below the x-axis supports, but the higher rails should improve ridgidity.

Jonathan
18-09-2011, 04:59 PM
It would mean that when you're machining on the base, the cutter would effectively be working below the x-axis supports, but the higher rails should improve ridgidity.

Yes, that combined with a bed which you can adjust the height of is by far the most rigid way to do it. As there are effectively no gantry sides you have eliminated the flex they cause. You can make the rest of the frame as heavy, and therefore strong, as you want as it is now stationary. I changed my router to that configuration and it has made a huge difference:

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/2288-1.7%2A0.74%2A0.4m-Mill-Router-building...?p=22767&viewfull=1#post22767

It is interesting that you seem to have profile rails yet cannot afford ballscrews? Is that because you spend all your money on the rails!

m.marino
19-09-2011, 10:22 PM
Have this beautiful drawing sitting down on the shop computer that I swear I had transferred a copy up to the office. Well will post it tomorrow with a good bit of detail on measurments so that things can be relevant to folks when you look at it. I am now starting to get sources for materials together and final costing for the upgrade. It is coming in at an acceptable cost (lesson learned the hard never really are). If I can arrange things with folks for the cutting and milling that needs done I might just have it up and running in new form in time to make enough parts for the convention.

Also have ordered shielded cable (Thanks Jonathan and Jazz for your sources). Hope that will help with the dropping steps enough to get some cutting done while getting the rest of the parts in.

Michael

m.marino
26-09-2011, 12:21 AM
Slight interruption as the newest child arrived very early Saturday morning.

m.marino
27-09-2011, 12:03 AM
Folks,

Looking at cost and speaking to a few of you folks. I would like your opinions of this solution to the current problem with kit router I have from Marchant dice until I can get the budget back on track to build the slightly larger and more useful unit. This is just Y and Z axi' pieces and the Z is not complete as the rails will be part of an outer "box" section that will come from the rails and screw in back with the stepper mounted directly on top with a plate at top and bottom of rails going to the front where another plate will vertically connect them to give the face for the spindle mount.

Here is what I have drawn and will hopefully have more tomorrow.
46424643

Thanks for all responses. I still plan to build the larger unit and will definitely be using a lot of the wonder ideas from Jonathan, Jazz, and others here.

For those who are interested Tomas is doing well and being a nice healthy baby boy.

Michael

luke11cnc
27-09-2011, 06:36 PM
Michael congratulations on the new addition well done mate

:toot::toot:It's a boy :toot::toot:

James

wait until you get shopping bags under the eye's LOL

m.marino
11-10-2011, 12:19 PM
Well,

Thomas is settling in just fine and I have been working on the model like a mad man to try to get things done and production back on line. As such you will find attached three jpegs that show the current design with leadscrews and anti-backlash nuts from DumpsterCNC. Stepper motors are not mounted nor are their mounts in the X or Y axis. Not all bolt holes have been put in yet for take apart for piece generation but getting there.

The 1st (a) is the full model minus the above and the gears and belt for Z; 2nd (b) is with table plate removed and Spindle plate of Z removed; 3rd (c) is with the close leg ofthe Gantry removed & the under plate of the Y/Z section. The extrusion you see I already own and they are simply migrating from the old machine to the new. I have not finished the holes for the Bearsing as of yet even though their models are in place, excluding the exterior bearing forthe Y axis (still debating whether to go that route or stick with just the one, leaning heavily on adding the second bearing).

Well with all that said, please constructive opinions please.

I do have to give thanks to Jonathan for a lot of input and also Jazz for some very usefull ideas.
473647384737


Again thanks for all the knowledge and support in this I have received.

Michael

luke11cnc
11-10-2011, 01:03 PM
Michael but if I've read your post's right to are going to have a X-axis between 750 cm to 1500 cm on a unsupported rail

I would think you are asking for trouble??

I am no expert and have not completed a machine yet but I know how little force is required to bend ( make the ball screw arc) and your asking it to support around 25kg with out any movement

sorry but I think you will have to rethink it


James

m.marino
11-10-2011, 01:09 PM
James this is the rebuild of the current machine and if it was that long you would be completely correct. That rail is only 500mm of 20mm dia. So should support it over the 250mm of travel it has.

Thanks for the input though and the build from ground up is still in progress.

Michael

Jonathan
11-10-2011, 01:14 PM
Michael but if I've read your post's right to are going to have a X-axis between 750 cm to 1500 cm on a unsupported rail

I would think you are asking for trouble??

He is asking for trouble using unsupported rails. Apparently a future upgrade will be the rail and changing to ballscrews when there is more time.

luke11cnc
11-10-2011, 01:52 PM
sorry I put a extra 0 in my post even so I would buy supported rails or even bearings on a length of steel like the FA100 Machine I think that's the right machine if cost is a issue

worth a look Michael

James

JAZZCNC
11-10-2011, 05:08 PM
Michael knowing the tolerences you want to work too then even at this length the unsupported rails will make that nigh on impossible.

With a machine this small the little extra cost for frame material and supported rails would be worth every penny.!!. . . . Dont dont it mate.!

Jonathan
11-10-2011, 06:14 PM
Michael knowing the tolerences you want to work too then even at this length the unsupported rails will make that nigh on impossible.

With a machine this small the little extra cost for frame material and unsupported rails would be worth every penny.!!. . . . Dont dont it mate.!

I'd forgotten the required tolerances were very very tight ... so I couldn't agree more.

You've gone for profile rails on Y/Z, which couldn't be better, then used the worst option (disregarding silly things like aluminium angle+bearings) for X which is the main support.
Just make the bed a little wider and you can fit some nice profile/supported rails underneath with the added bonus of them not getting covered in swarf.

luke11cnc
11-10-2011, 07:34 PM
here is the link and bearings I was talking about

https://www.finelineautomation.com/store/show/CRP101-00

when are you intending to build you CNC machine ??

James

JAZZCNC
11-10-2011, 09:42 PM
here is the link and bearings I was talking about

https://www.finelineautomation.com/store/show/CRP101-00

when are you intending to build you CNC machine ??

James

Even these wont be good enough for what micheal needs james, they will be strong enough but not really accurate enough. These are better suited for wood routers thou do have there issues, namely crap getting on the steel surface causeing sticking etc.

Really what micheal needs is a milling machine or a very substanial frame router.? Given the small size think actually better would be a fixed gantry moving table design, could be made much stronger allowing for better accurecy. . . . thou Under stand he's trying to upgrade an existing machine so his restrained by what he's already got.

Personaly Micheal I think your on a very very fine line financialy between not being worth the trouble of upgrading and going straight into building exactly the machine best suited to your needs.
Honestly I feel that by the time you have invested money on profiled rails, upgrading cheap lead screws with dumpster nuts and stiffening the chassis and all the other stuff you'll have to invest into getting this machine something like near the accrecy you would like, which I also feel you will never achieve anyway with this type of design. Then you'll be much better advised to not waste time or money and go straight into building the new machine. . . . Also think time wise it wont take you much longer.!!. . . you'll spend so much time chasing and tweaking the old machine a new build could be done in about the same time.? . . .Obviously if the finances are available.

Sometimes it's just better to cutt your loses and start a fresh.!!

luke11cnc
11-10-2011, 10:50 PM
Ok Jazz

How much would it cost Michael to have profiled rails for the X-axis for his machine

James

m.marino
11-10-2011, 11:18 PM
James thanks for the information. For the most I am rebuilding/building this one. Cost wise, I am having to keep it as under control as I can. The rub is this is the tool that i make a good bit of my busines from. Okay, what do I make? Chromatic harmoinica parts (custom combs, mouthpieces, and such), parts for the no longer made and Hohner pitched the tooling for them in 1985, Harmonettas (Google it, they are really nice pieces of kit, and Yes I am the Mike/Michael that makes the gaskets for them), repair parts and upgrades for Bass/Chord Harmonicas. Parts for concertinas.

This way folks can understand what the accuracy issues are. Right now doingsome rework after listeningto you folks and thanks. Beofre the bearings went I was getting mouthpieces, covers and combs out of the mill without a huge amount of waste (was still making profit). The kicker is that the biggest feastival for harmonicas is the end of the month and I have order from my US distro and clients. I won't take orders if I can't supply product directly (ask a serious harmonica player about Henderson harmonicas,wear earpplugs). So I move forward as able and thank the Lord funds are coming together to do a sort of rebuild (less of the original then new) That should do the job a whole lot better and keep doing it longer then I will need it to (meaning that it will pay for the next one to be built).

Once this is all done and past I will put up potho's of some of the different parts that I make.

Again folks thanks for all suggestions and hope you are doing well. Oh, one bright point the anaerobic antibotics they finally put me on to clear up a long standing post op infection are doingthe job and I am getting a lot of energy and focus back so give praise where there is reason.

Michael

m.marino
14-10-2011, 12:15 AM
Well folks,

work and payment recieved have come together to allow me to get the pieces together to buil the model I have below. Support round rails ordered (Thanks Jonathan for challenging my idea and sorry JAZZ for not contacting you first). The rails and 2 of the carriages will be coming from Jonathan. The other 4 carriages and two rails for Y axis JAZZ has helped with me getting. DumpsterCNC anti-backlash nuts ordered and in route via post. Just need to get a hold of JAZZ on cutting and where to have the metal sent to. Also need to get a hold of m_c for the modification on the pieces that are here.

JAZZ or Jonathan (Heck anyone with more experience then me) please speak up on anything you might see wrong with the design. NO, not all bolt holes have been put into the model yet. Yo uwould be surpirsed how much time doingthat and making sure that there is no conflicts and enough Metal to grab. No the motor mounts are not all present and the gear i put in the top of Z keeps vanishing.

4740

Thanks for all the advice and will get pic's up when all the pieces go together.

Michael

Jonathan
14-10-2011, 02:27 AM
It's just occurred to me that your gantry has very poor torsional stiffness. Normally that's not a problem as with two ballscrews it can't twist, however with only one nut in the middle when the cutter is near either edge of the bed the gantry can twist causing deflection. Given the tolerances you require that could cause problems. You're essentially only relying on the joint between the gantry back plate as sides, so I'd be inclined to reinforce that. The rail mount blocks will help...also don't remember what joining the bottom of the gantry sides, that will make a difference.

m.marino
04-11-2011, 01:12 AM
Well,

Thanks to a Large amount of help from JAZZ the stress and pressure have been relieved greatly. Now finishing up a redesign that I have been working on with JAZZ and hope to start working on getting all the pieces to him for cutting soon. Additional good news is that linearmotionbearings on flea- bay has FF/FK support bearings for RM1605 ballscrews. Still going with the single central ballscrew and given the level of reinforcement going into it, I doubt racking will be a problem. right now looking at seeing if removing some of the internal metal (creating a web like effect) could be done to decrease weight while keeping stiffness up where it needs to be. Outside of that busy with work and another convention this weekend North of me (Luckily only going for one day as have too much to do to afford all three days of the event).

Will post pictures once I have something worth looking at done (Have most the structure done just adding some finishing touches but want it right first).

Off to bed as up way to late and going to pay for it.

Michael

luke11cnc
10-11-2011, 10:58 AM
Ok Michael and Jazz your item has been posted today 10th November with a tracking number of

FWKC8972320GB

James and Luke

m.marino
10-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Ok Michael and Jazz your item has been posted today 10th November with a tracking number of

FWKC8972320GB

James and Luke

Thanks James and Luke. That is going to help make a very ridge Machine. Folks I have to give a very deep felt thanks to both James and Luke as they gave me the rails and all I had to do was pay them for the postage. They have helped me greatly and I thank them greatly for that help.

Michael

m.marino
15-11-2011, 10:02 PM
Okay,

Update on the machine design and build. Design has been finalized with Jazz and materials are coming together. Rails from Luke and James have helped greatly in the moving forward portion. After working up all the different cost of items, the direction was given to go with twin X axis ballscrews as that was actually cheaper with the resources we have to get the parts. Plate has been ordered and paid for; as have the ballscrews which should be shipping here shortly. I will post a JPG later of the finalized design and should have a full model with bolt holes and everything for folks who find it an interesting design.

Now comes the prepping the space in the shed for it foot print of 677mm by 1200 not including the X axis stepper motors which I need to buy one more of those to have a full set. I will be currently using the System 4 set up I have from DIYCNC but will be moving to a higher voltage set up once funds allow.

Cutting area is looking to be 850mm (X) by 355mm(Y) by 150 to 175(Z) Depending on bed height. Bed at first will be MDF two piece configuration (Thanks for the idea Jazz) and I might change over to HDPE or Acrylic (as currently the price of a piece of Ali' that big is scary let alone getting the slots milled into it).

Outside of that it is a bit of prep and waiting time for me as Jazz who is helping with this project is getting the materials to him and moving forward as able. I have a lot of work as well as getting instrument finished for clients and models and G-code for projects done.

Also reading up on VaiCAD (Looking at getting the handbook printed for ease of use) and reading up in the user manual of Mach3 as finally getting to properly read and start understanding all it can do which is huge.

So watch this spot as JPG of model soon and updates of progress as they come along.

Michael

PS sorry for the ramble.

m.marino
16-11-2011, 11:15 PM
Well,

I said that i was going to get a jpeg of the model up.:whistling:

Well here is something a bit more useful as things are now moving forward. This is the base.. I will be adding more as I or Jazz have them to put up.

48894890

On top of the 80 x 40 on edge profile is going index plates for the rails and on the ends will be the stepper mount plates on one end and a buffer plate on the other that will also lock the ends tighter together.

Watch this thread for more as things develop. A very big thanks to Jazz in this and as well as a thank you to Luke and James.

Michael

m.marino
27-11-2011, 10:24 AM
A few more pic's as things progress.

4977
4978
4979

Will attach an image of what the finished gantry router is going to look like minus bolts as have not taken the time to put all th bolt holes in yet nor put bolts where they belong.

A Big thanks to Jazz for sending these pic's as he is progressing with the build. Should be getting the ballscrews arriving soon and also finally saved up enough to get the extra stepper motor and a few other items that needs covered.

Michael

m.marino
27-11-2011, 10:43 AM
As promised a jpeg of the model working from:

4980

Will see how close the finished item is as things always go through changes.

Michael

luke11cnc
27-11-2011, 11:32 AM
well that's coming along nicely Michael thank you for the update on images and drawing

what is the dimension of the cutting bed ?? just out of interest

Looks like Jazz has his work cut out for him

James and Luke

m.marino
27-11-2011, 05:39 PM
well that's coming along nicely Michael thank you for the update on images and drawing

what is the dimension of the cutting bed ?? just out of interest

Looks like Jazz has his work cut out for him

James and Luke

James & Luke,

The overall dimensions of the bed are 1100 mm on X and 500 mm on Y. The cutting area that we are getting out of the set up is 860 mm on X and 355/360 mm on Y. Z will be 175 mm depth of plunge minus what ever table thickness is mounted above the support base. I hope that clarifies it a bit. If not, please say so and will try to do a better job.

Michael

m.marino
28-11-2011, 01:46 PM
Well the ballscrews and blocks arrived today, minor problem that a quick e-mail fixed and the parts that where not the right length will be getting replaced and the right ones air shipped to me. So that is all good in the end there. Need to ship these down to Jazz and also buy some grease nipples to fit in to well on the ballscrew nuts so that one it keeps out FOD from that area and allows more effective greasing of the ball bearings inside. BK/BF/FK/FF parts all arrived in excellent condition.

Michael

m.marino
08-12-2011, 12:26 AM
Well more is happening and still waiting for the replacement ballscrews but it is only a week so not really worried.:whistling: Here are a few update pic's that Jazz has sent to me, showing some of the progress and how nice it is starting to come together.

5039
5040

Hope you folks enjoy and will post some more photo's as able.

I really have to say thanks again to Jazz for the work he is doing it is looking great and coming together very well.:toot:


Michael

dstivens
11-12-2011, 04:44 PM
hello, i was just wondering how you connect the ali profile together? i cant work it out from the photos. im building something similar to this design and need to mount the pieces the best i can

Cheers

JAZZCNC
11-12-2011, 11:22 PM
hello, i was just wondering how you connect the ali profile together? i cant work it out from the photos. im building something similar to this design and need to mount the pieces the best i can

Cheers

Probably best if I answer this question.!

There are numerous ways but Micheals frame is bolted together using a combination of Profile manufactures specific fasteners, T-nuts etc and ordinery bolts which go into drilled and tapped holes in the profile.

I've attached some pics may help show better.

m.marino
12-12-2011, 09:50 AM
Well folks here are some more pic's and thing are progressing well. Just waiting on th replacement ball screws to arrive and Jazz has a bit more cutting drilling and tapping to do. Other then that I am getting the shop ready for the machine, getting g-code ready and need to get the micro switches for the home/limit switches and looking into energy chain and the pattern on the forum to decide whether to buy or build it and how I am going to be mounting this onto the machine.

Now the real reason you are looking at this post is to see the new pic's so here they are:
505750585059

The ball screw in the pictures is one of Jazz's as the Y and Z axis screws are still in route due to the problem mentioned earlier in this log. Really happy to se it this far.:toot:
Jazz is doing wonderful work and really helping get this done. I have got a bunch of g-code waiting and working on more as need to get production back up as soon as the mill is in place and had the set up, test runs and final tweaking done.

Michael

luke11cnc
12-12-2011, 10:03 AM
bloody hell Jazz has been working hard

that look's amazing

nice work lads and just think you can make money of that just from the CNC machine plans alone

I saw some one selling plans for 120.00 on ebay last week

James

dstivens
12-12-2011, 11:40 AM
Probably best if I answer this question.!

That's perfect! thank you very much :tup:

m.marino
12-12-2011, 09:31 PM
Folks,

Great news Ball screws are here and will be shipped to Jazz tomorrow. Also, with the aid of my wife we swapped the ball screws nuts without loosing a single ball bearing from either of them. I will admit that we set up and had a plan and soft cloth under the ball screws as we transferring them.

Right now trying to figure out how to use IGUS chain (or something like it) in the space I have to use for protection of the power/control cables to the motors and the spindle. I can fit it no problem. Problem is figuring out how to mount it. My error, though not a large one and from what I am seeing correctable.

Michael

m.marino
05-01-2012, 12:15 AM
Well here is some very good progress photo's and things are moving forward. Jazz, you're doing a great job and thanks.51735174

Will get more up as able.

Michael

audioandy
07-01-2012, 01:36 AM
Nice!!

Well done Jazz!

m.marino
09-01-2012, 09:08 AM
Well folks we are on the home stretch and Jazz is doing great. The design has gone through some minor changes, but is pretty much on track for what was designed. Now the important part the pictures. Side note there are only 2 plates left to cut and 2 extensions to cut for the NEMA 23 shafts for the pulleys.

51845185518651875188

The HDPE you see the Z axis resting on is 15 mm thick and will be about what I am using for bed material. Right now discussing whether to mill in slots or just drill and tap it. The bed will be either HDPE around 200-250 grade or UHMWPE and looking at a couple of options on how to set that up. Need to get one more piece of energy chain for the x axis. I on the other hand am testing the BOB that I have done the work on to make the A axis work with the X and going to make sure that is all good and need to get the shielded wiring for the switches and most likely will need some more shielded 4 core for the motors as will need longer leads.

Also getting g-code ready for a couple of jigs and such as will be busy right from the get go once it is up here and bedded in. Again a very big thanks to Jazz for all his work:toot:, to James and Luke for the X axis supported round rails:tup: and for all the other folks that directly or indirectly aided in this project.:toot:


Michael

luke11cnc
09-01-2012, 11:59 AM
Looks really good Michael

what spindle are you planning to use ??

James

Jonathan
09-01-2012, 12:20 PM
most likely will need some more shielded 4 core for the motors as will need longer leads.

I've got plenty of 4-core CY shielded if you need to buy some. Let me know how much you need - will be cheaper than elsewhere as I'm not trying to make money out of it!

deannos
09-01-2012, 02:38 PM
I've got plenty of 4-core CY shielded if you need to buy some. Let me know how much you need - will be cheaper than elsewhere as I'm not trying to make money out of it!

I will vouch for that, it's a good price from Jonathan:tup:

m.marino
09-01-2012, 02:43 PM
Looks really good Michael

what spindle are you planning to use ??

James

Currently using a Kress 1050 FME and will most likely keep using that until I can afford to buy/build a water-cooled spindle with VFD. Once I can afford it the next upgrade is a SuperPID for the Kress which has really good reviews for performance.

Jonathan
09-01-2012, 03:23 PM
Currently using a Kress 1050 FME and will most likely keep using that until I can afford to buy/build a water-cooled spindle with VFD. Once I can afford it the next upgrade is a SuperPID for the Kress which has really good reviews for performance.

If you will ultimately buy the water cooled spindle then why bother with the SuperPID... surely use that money to get the water cooled spindle sooner?
I started off with a 6 router from the car boot sale. Didn't last long ... then I was persuaded to get the water cooled spindle. Couldn't really afford it at the time (Mum and Dad took quite a bit of persuading!) but I'm glad I didn't get the Kress as after having read more about both of them the water cooled spindle is clearly worth the extra.

m.marino
09-01-2012, 06:14 PM
If you will ultimately buy the water cooled spindle then why bother with the SuperPID... surely use that money to get the water cooled spindle sooner?
I started off with a 6 router from the car boot sale. Didn't last long ... then I was persuaded to get the water cooled spindle. Couldn't really afford it at the time (Mum and Dad took quite a bit of persuading!) but I'm glad I didn't get the Kress as after having read more about both of them the water cooled spindle is clearly worth the extra.

Okay good question.


Super will cost me $181.00 (118 as of this posting)plus incoming VAT (I get that back as a business) plus the processing fee of max 10 by the courier. Which as I said in the post you quote has very good performance record in not only speed control but in maintaining torque via maintaining rpm. Then setting it up with the System 4 break out board and Mach3 (about two days worth of work including testing)

1.5KW water cooled spindle ~140 delivered +/- 15. Then a quality VFD 1.5KW VFD that I can get serviced?warranty in the UK will cost between 120 and 180 depending on type and a few other options. Add on to that a coolant pump and Radiator with fans and thermometer for fan control (150 max). Plus the aluminium for the mounting brackets to be cut as well.

That is why the wait and going with the SuperPID and double brackets on the Kress until I build up enough cash reserves from product sales to buy the materials to go the liquid cooled route.

It is a matter of economics and what I can do at this time to improve control and repeatability of the work I am doing. The SuperPID will be a massive step up in control and safety.

I am looking at the 1.5Kw as that is 2HP and more then enough power for the cutting that I will be doing for a good while. I might at the time of buying the water cooled decide to upgrade to a 2.2KW unit, but will have to see at that point.

I hope that explains my reasoning and in a clear fashion. My only request is that this is taken as ONLY simple explanation and nothing more.

On the machine build side of things the testing of the break out board went well after setting up Mach and doing a few other items. Also found a Parallel port card that has two ports on one card and need to find out if that would cause a problem with information out bound or not. As it looks like a rather nice option for my PCI slot challenged mother board (when I start pulling the rest together for the fourth axis).

Hope every one is doing well and having fun making chips.

Michael

JAZZCNC
09-01-2012, 08:18 PM
NO contest IMO the W/C spindle wins hands down Micheal.!! . . . Unfortunatly it's one of them untill you've used one you'll never now how good they are things.!

Don't need Rads fans etc a simple submersible pump (15 Ebay 24V 7mtr head height) into a sealed container of decent qty 20-25lt is all thats needed.

Some one asked me a while ago how long the spindle would run without coolant and because it's not something I've done purposely for more than a few minutes couldn't truely give a definative answer other than 5 minutes or so!!. . . .Well as of a week or so ago this changed.?
Now this is the part where I fezz up to doing an embarrissing numpty trick. . . . . . I forgot to tighten the pipe clip on the pump after fitting a new pump resulting in it falling off in the tank.:redface: . . . The machine had been cutting Aluminum for nearly 2hours without coolant.:surprised:

The only reason I spotted the problem was because when the job stopped I didn't hear the water back drain into the tank like normal pricking my attention.! . . Now you can imagine my shock horror when I opened the top and realised it had just been cutting 2 hours without water.!
My first instinct was to clasp the spindle expecting it to be red hot and it wasn't.!!. . Yes It was lot warmer than normal but no way would I discribe it as any where near hot and absolutly in no way did it affect cutting or show in loss of power or even change sound.
(This said the temp in the shop was bloody freezing so this would help very very very very slightly.!)

So my point confessing this embarrising cock up is to point out these spindles are very robust regards cooling and even when run without coolant for prelonged periods they won't kill them selfs. So thermostats etc are not really needed or would have even helped in a situation like this unless monitered by software to shut down if the flow stops. . . . . Really a flow meter connected to an estop would be far more usefull. Obviously I'm not recommending or saying it's ok to run these spindles dry in anyway but they won't die in minutes thats for sure.

So now my Answer to the quastion has changed from 2 minutes to 2 hours.!!. . . . . But I don't plan on testing this any further.:lol:

Save the S-Pid money and go straight to WC using the simple cheap approach is my vote.!

luke11cnc
09-01-2012, 08:27 PM
I think the water cooled router are much much quieter than the high speed kress any way and much much better on the ears

James

Jonathan
09-01-2012, 08:35 PM
Agree entirely with everything Jazz just said - was just typing similar post but got distracted. My pump, like the ones on eBay was <5 and no radiator / fancy coolant. You'd have to try hard to spend more than 25 on the cooling system I reckon. Aluminium for the mount brackets <10.

I have also inadvertently left my pump off, and yes it warms up a bit but it seems no harm done.

If you want to invest money on a better controller use the money from the S-pid to get the better VFD. Even so, there are many many people who have used the china VFDs with no problems (myself included, got two now) and they've recently changed the design so presumably it's better. Obviously people only post on forums about the VFD if they have problems with it. Jazz has had bad luck with them though I believe...

JAZZCNC
09-01-2012, 09:45 PM
Jazz has had bad luck with them though I believe...

Yes I did have problems with mine and it wasn't just the huanyang VFD's I also had another chinese brand which I can't remember name of now. Both where very poor quality but the huanyang was best.
When I first bought mine they weren't has cheap as they are know so the differential was worth buying local and not taking the risk.
Now thou it's changed and I'd be inclined to take the risk for the little difference between just buying the spindle on it's own and VFD/spindle combo.

The only exception to this would be if your business relied upon it, which in this case then I'd definatly 100% buy local. . . . Not just because the vfd's are better quality, (Remember they are all pritty much built or originate in China anyway so it could be a close call with lesser known brands.!!) but it's the warranty that you really need or want.

Micheal knows this already but for the bennifit of others with business's or folks where's it's critical to keep down time to a minimum. It was Only a few weeks ago this showed how important.!
My top brand high quality ABB vector drive went faulty, it's not very old so still under warrenty and I was back up and running within days, which could have been down to hours if I was prepared to go collect. This for a business is worth the extra investment.

Jonathan
09-01-2012, 09:53 PM
Keep a spare then? Unless the proper ones are less than twice as much as the cheap ones and don't charge for repair you're still winning. I bought my second one and it arrived in about 4 days, not bad I thought.

If you really need lots of torque at low rpm then having the vector drive helps, so that's one reason to get one. Still if you want to do that get the 2.kW spindle so you've got more power at low rpm to start with (and the bigger collet of course). They come up cheap on eBay occasionally.

motoxy
09-01-2012, 10:20 PM
Michael. I have just got one of the bay for 238 inc postage for 2.2kw +controller. If you want to check it out I will gladly drop it round for you to see when it arrives.

Your machine is looking awesome btw.

Bruce

JAZZCNC
10-01-2012, 12:16 AM
Keep a spare then? Unless the proper ones are less than twice as much as the cheap ones and don't charge for repair you're still winning. I bought my second one and it arrived in about 4 days, not bad I thought.

Yes keeping a spare does make sense but it does workout more expensive. A quick look and I can get a 2.2kw torque vector drive for 137 and probably cheaper for flux drive(Non vector) if I shopped about. I've seen them as low as 99 +vat obviously the VAT don't matter if your business thats vat registered.

Just looking on ebay the Huanyang vfd would be approx 85 x 2= 170 plus VAT and import duty if your unlucky plus the usual 10 for the robbing shipping companys charge.
Yes it would probably be slightly cheaper because you'll get the first about 60-70 if bought with spindle. Yes you will have 2 drives but both will be Non vector drives even then thou it's still a close call if you buy like for like non vector drives that you could get 2 for only slightly more in UK. In this case then for the little extra it would still make more sense to buy local for warranty advantage.

If a business it's something that needs carefull attention and although 4 days hisn't long it's still 3 more than couriering from most places in UK, which could be as low as hours depending where purchased from. To a business even 1 day of down time could make the difference between making money and blowing money or going POP.!!

Personally If it was my main living I'd have a spare all the time and both would be vector drives bought in UK. . . . I'd also have a spare spindle.!

Jonathan
10-01-2012, 12:21 AM
Personally If it was my main living I'd have a spare all the time and both would be vector drives bought in UK. . . . I'd also have a spare spindle.!

Same, although if vector drives (and the corresponding advantages) didn't exist it would be less clear cut.

I didn't get charged by customs on the VFD, they said it was shipped from the UK and I can't remember if that was actually true. Probably not, and I also hate the 10! But try ignoring it and you get lots of letters (it was worth a shot).

m.marino
10-01-2012, 07:25 AM
Bruce,

Yes if you would please. Though I will be honest I will still go with a local VFD which for me saves the cost of keeping the back up in house currently.

Saving up for that is okay. Thanks for mentioning Collet size Jonathan as that is probably the best reason to move up from the 1.5Kw unit even though I really don't need that much more power. Seven millimeters is just not big enough by one millimeter to do the range of tools that I have reason to use.

Today more set up an prep work in shop and business work. Long day today.

Michael

Jonathan
10-01-2012, 11:48 AM
Thanks for mentioning Collet size Jonathan as that is probably the best reason to move up from the 1.5Kw unit even though I really don't need that much more power. Seven millimeters is just not big enough by one millimeter to do the range of tools that I have reason to use.


Not that I want to change your decision, but the collets on the 1.5kW are ER16 which goes up to 10mm:

http://www.rego-fix.ch/eng/katalog/ti/ti_fs.htm

(I think you were looking at ER11 which is up to 7mm)
For most people over 10mm is critical as it means you can use 1/2" router cutters.

Remember that the available power output from the spindle is roughly proportional to the spindle speed, so if you're starting with 2.2kW instead of 1.5kW you have more power at lower speeds. So saying 1.5kW is more than you'll ever need I think is not quite true as it doesn't take into account this power reduction.

m.marino
10-01-2012, 03:14 PM
Jonathan,

ALL the 1.5kW water cooled spindles I have looked at are ER11, now if you know of one that is ER16 great please post the link for it.

Jonathan
10-01-2012, 03:22 PM
Jonathan,

ALL the 1.5kW water cooled spindles I have looked at are ER11, now if you know of one that is ER16 great please post the link for it.

Fair enough the only ER16 1.5kW are air cooled and you don't want that. To be honest I'd never bothered looking before as I didn't consider it.

m.marino
11-01-2012, 05:12 PM
Well the wiring that I ordered is here (limit switches and lighter then what you have Jonathan as don't need that heavy for the limit/Home switches). Jazz showed me a few web sites that have some really nice stuff that will really help with product once I can afford them. Most likely going to put a smoothstepper in front of getting the water cooled spindle as that just means keeping an eye on the brushes of the Kress and using the Ear plugs I use already for a bit longer.

Right now it is getting down to the end bits and bobs that are needed to get things finished. Hope everyone is doing well.

Michael

edited to correct spelling

Jonathan
11-01-2012, 05:20 PM
I think you should definitely prioritise the spindle over the smooth-stepper. Since it's only quite a small machine you'll be able to run it perfectly well from the parallel port, so I doubt the smooth stepper will make much difference. Compare that to the spindle which directly affects the machine's ability to cut accurately and efficiently.

I'd like a smooth stepper too (as mine is bigger), but I'm not bothered when really as the machine runs perfectly well. It should just be a little more stable with one. Just going to wait for one to come up cheap...or make my own version. Whichever comes first.

m_c
11-01-2012, 05:38 PM
Jonathan, do you even know what Michael makes with his machine?

I'm pretty sure he doesn't need 2.2kw to machine what he does, and I'd even say the kress has far more power than what's needed. I'll agree a water cooled spindle will be better for noise reduction, but I wouldn't say it's a priority.


As for the smoothstepper, if you do get one, the ethernet SS is very near production, and is reported to be far more stable than the USB version.

Jonathan
11-01-2012, 05:47 PM
Jonathan, do you even know what Michael makes with his machine?

Yes I do know - spent some time discussing quite a lot about this and the machine over Skype, but not going to say here as that's up to Michael. I gather what he is making requires high accuracy. It's also generally small tools, so I guess the cutting noise wont be much which makes getting a quieter spindle sensible.


I'm pretty sure he doesn't need 2.2kw to machine what he does, and I'd even say the kress has far more power than what's needed.

Yes if you actually got 2.2kW from the spindle - see what I put in post #102. Similarly if the Kress had far more power than needed Michael wouldn't have considered getting a Super-PID.
More importantly he needs the bigger collets that the 2.2kW spindle offers, so the only spindle to get is the 2.2kW water cooled (as air is too noisy and bad at low speed).

m.marino
11-01-2012, 06:32 PM
Jonathan,

I would prefer to have the 8 mm that a ER16 allows an ER20 is overkill for me. While I will be working with some metals in the future that is a bit down the road and I primarily work with plastics that need a high finish. With the machine as it is I will easily be able to do that with out a big problem with the Kress as the position I was in with the old machine was the machines in ability to be any where as near as accurate as I needed.

m_c,

thanks for the heads up on the smoothstepper and I will be waiting whether I wanted to or not as have too much to get done that requires funds going other places. The good news is that will be generating income and with the new machine should have a very nice return. Which will go part in the bills to live, part into paying more materials to meet orders and parts to be saved up for upgrades as possible.

Hope every one is doing well and m_c; once I have it up here from Jazz, drop me a message and we can see about that project you need cut.

Michael

JAZZCNC
11-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Hope every one is doing well and m_c; once I have it up here from Jazz,

Thou M/C don't hold your breath because the B'#*?ard is fighting back and has started taking root . . :rofl:

m_c
11-01-2012, 08:34 PM
Just aswell I'm in no rush :lol:

On a serious note, that project is currently lingering at the bottom of a very long list, with no planned need until May, but that could change anytime!
I've spent the past couple of weeks buried in embedded code stuff, learning such things as what happens to Atmega chips when you run out of RAM, with next weeks delights looking to include LiPo batteries and charging, topped of with some thru-beam testing, and if I get time, some .net programming. I'm hoping to get back to some CNC action before the end of the month :-/

Jonathan
11-01-2012, 08:45 PM
next weeks delights looking to include LiPo batteries and charging

I've made a couple of LiPo chargers, and used/tested/made batteries from those cells a lot ... if you don't care about the efficiency of the charger then it's very easy.

m_c
11-01-2012, 11:27 PM
I've made a couple of LiPo chargers, and used/tested/made batteries from those cells a lot ... if you don't care about the efficiency of the charger then it's very easy.
I'm taking the easy option and using the sparkfun charger/booster module. Need to figure out how long the battery will last under various scenarios, which is what will take the time.

m.marino
08-02-2012, 05:48 PM
After weather and and tool breakage/out of stock and sundry other problems conspiring against us, back on track and things looking good. I will NOT predict a finish date at the moment as every time we have set a done by date something has gotten in the way of it. But things are looking good and the pulleys are on and things are moving forward. My health is not the greatest with a cough deciding that it wants to inhibit me being able to get tuning done but hey, looks like I might have other work that has been in the wings that can be done instead in the near future.
5311


Michael

m.marino
11-02-2012, 11:06 AM
Well,

It is done to the point that it is now coming up here and the wiring, bedding in, last section of energy chain install, and tuning will be getting done.:toot:

Baring something going wrong (touch wood/iron) that will be this coming wednesday, after which all the above will be being done and then a whole bunch of chips are going to be getting made. Big Big thanks to JazzCNC:toot::toot: and also to James and Luke for the rails:toot: and all other folks who have helped and/or encouraged along the way:toot:.

It is sort of funny as I am smiling like crazy as I am sick as a dog with an upper respiratory infection (on antibiotics and hopefully will be better by the time the machine gets here). Now just last bit of cleaning up (funny how work surfaces attract clutter:joker:). Now it is just doing the little stuff and waiting for it to get here.:naughty::dance:

Oh here is some pictures and yes the X axis is not attached as that is going to be unbolted from the carriages for transport up here. Now to be a patient lad :whistling::joker:
for the few days left to go.

533753385339

luke11cnc
11-02-2012, 11:16 AM
That look's amazing Mick
well done lads Jazz is a really talented man and done you proud I hope you make lots and lots of cash now

I will accept one of those bottle of whisky going for 44,000.00 (their is 10 left):whistling::joker:

I'm really pleased for you

James and Luke

motoxy
11-02-2012, 12:01 PM
Michael that is looking beautiful. Well done to you and jazz. Now where is that list of parts i need making?:whistling:

Bruce

m.marino
15-02-2012, 08:01 PM
Thanks Jazz and all the folks who helped with this build. It arrived today and I got to meet Jazz in person finally. Great guy, kids loved him. Now I am wiring up the mill and going to be setting up the limit switches and such as well as setting up the electronics. I will get pictures of it in the shop up later tonight (getting the on machine wiring boxes cut and able to be placed.

Michael

motoxy
15-02-2012, 08:43 PM
Whose a happy boy then?:tup:

bruce

m.marino
15-02-2012, 09:18 PM
Whose a happy boy then?:tup:

bruce

I am coughing hacks included. Went out with Mario (My oldest son, for folks who don't know him) and got the some of the parts I need and hair cuts as we both needed them. Got back home and started working on things and then the hacking got worse from doing to much today so up in the office doing other things I can do. And here is the pictures I promised earlier:53595360

A good sized machine that fits as snug as we designed it to and i will be bolting it to the table as that gantry has a good bit of mass and it is going to want to move when i get her up to full cutting speed. Well folks going to rest as this hack is not nice. I will try to get a few better done photo's in the future but the machine takes up a good part of the back wall as both Jazz and Bruce can give witness to.

Michael

audioandy
15-02-2012, 09:35 PM
Nice job Dean!

Michael don't forget the video when you get it up and running.

Andy

m.marino
15-02-2012, 09:41 PM
Nice job Dean!

Michael don't forget the video when you get it up and running.

Andy

Andy,

Gladly and with much joy when it is up and running and when it is doing some of the detailed cutting that it was made for.

Michael

m.marino
16-02-2012, 06:34 PM
Well power supply is connected to drivers and no smoke (thank goodness as Jazz would kill me). Fuses in place (using the fuse box I have until I can get the 5A fuse bars for the G bar fuse holders) and waiting on the 4 pin chassis plugs to arrive tomorrow (though I had enough and Maplin was out at the local store). So all things go well should have the base wiring done tomorrow and can test. Already have set A axis to slave in Mach3 and will triple check that before I run anything. So things are going to get interesting shortly (in a positive way).

Michael

luke11cnc
19-02-2012, 07:51 AM
well are you making chips yet


James

JAZZCNC
19-02-2012, 10:54 AM
well are you making chips yet


James

Ha ha James it's more like parmesan cheese Micheal makes with the tolerences he works too but I Think he's still wrapped up in spaggetti and knowing Micheal he won't cut corners or turn it on untill he's 100%. (Esp as most of the electrics are loned from me and he knows if he lets the magic smoke out I'm all tooled up . .:rofl:)

m.marino
19-02-2012, 11:13 AM
Hello folks,

I have to second what Jazz is saying as I want it spot on before I go powering up fully. One is the loan of parts of the electronics (drivers and power supply) and second is I want it just right before I start cutting or test running to make sure that is not a source of trouble during the bedding in of the machine. Don't worry I will have it running soon and will get video up as soon as I have the test runs video taped and then get some cutting on video.

Michael

luke11cnc
19-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Really really looking forward to seeing it run

But I know how it feels to strike it up for the first time and If your like me I was happy still to sit/stand and just look at it.

between you and me I was scared to death of it (I didn't want the magic smoke) plus I didn't have the right cutters or software but that's another story

James

m.marino
20-02-2012, 03:02 PM
Well Fuses for the G rail fuse holders arrived with the xlr 4 pin plugs/sockets so wiring that in and soldering what terminals I can together. Waiting on two 4 pin chassis plugs for the machine end of the Y and Z axis to finish that drivers all show power as well as power to the BOB all hooked up and wired in. So moving forward and making progress. Amazing the time it takes to just get the wiring done right (I am not even done yet really as it all has to be moved inside the control box once it gets here and leaving a bit extra wire for that). Well back to soldering up what needs done.

Michael

m.marino
23-02-2012, 08:11 PM
Had to cancel the online order from Maplin as it would have not been in stock till the 19th of March and thanks to Bruce giving me a lift to the Maplin that did have the plugs I am now to the stage of final soldering tomorrow morning and then tomorrow afternoon if I am able to get all ten plugs and sockets that need soldering done I will start on the test runs to see how things go and get everything moving. Hopefully I will have video up tomorrow night, if not Saturday will be test and running day to see how thing go and get ready for doing some cutting. I still need to get the X axis IGUS chain to help protect the cables and will be cutting the brackets to hold that in place. Monday I will be ordering some HDPE to get bolted down to the sub bed and surfaced. Once that is done and the test cuts done I will be very busy.

Michael

motoxy
24-02-2012, 10:06 AM
Monday I will be ordering some HDPE to get bolted down to the sub bed and surfaced. Once that is done and the test cuts done I will be very busy.

Michael

Too right you will. I need brackets, supports, holders ..........:rofl:

I have to say that the machine is looking awesome.

Bruce

m.marino
25-02-2012, 10:32 AM
Well Y and Z axis are up and running and responding to both jog and direct co-ord's input. Working on tracking down why I am not getting lock on the A and X axis screws and hopefully will have video of a full functional unit later this afternoon. As it is 5m/min is rather impressive and the machine does not shimmy at all. Need to design some cable guides for the Kress cable that will also serve for when I up grade to a spindle. Tracking down wiring gremlins is not fun what so ever at all and even though I know I tightened wires properly they seem to find ways of getting loose. Keeping at it an hoping to be done with this part soon.

Michael

JAZZCNC
25-02-2012, 10:49 AM
As it is 5m/min is rather impressive and the machine does not shimmy at all.

Things that small which weigh the same as a small car tend to NOT shimmy.!!. . . . . . They just try to TIP the shed over.:dance:

When you do get the X axis going don't try going straight to 5mtr/min, twin screws setups tend to need a slight safety margin to be sure one motor doesn't stall which can really screw the gantry up bad.
With 5mm pitch screws your near max rpm and less torque, your gantry ain't over heavy but it ain't light weight either so tread carefull when your approaching 5mtr/min. If you don't need 5mtr/min then I'd say back it off just for good measure.!

kylelnsn
25-02-2012, 05:15 PM
Great Build! If you don't mind me asking what is your total cost? And can you break the cost down to parts? And suppliers?

I really love this build, all the best today!

m.marino
26-02-2012, 12:22 AM
Well Folks,

It is late tonight and much chasing the Gremlins. It runs and is zeroed on all axi'. I will get some video up tomorrow afternoon or evening of it running out the test pattern I am going to be using to see how it handles different speeds. As Jazz suspected, when the gantry comes to a stop from speed the shop shimmy's a bit. Currently have gotten Y and Z ups to 3500mm/min no problems and Y an additional 500mm more without me getting to nervous (at 1250mm^2min acceleration it moves fast). I am tired and going to bed.

Michael

motoxy
26-02-2012, 09:45 AM
Fantastic:beer: I expect thats a good tired. Look forward to seeing the beast in motion.

bruce

m.marino
26-02-2012, 08:47 PM
Well Folks here is the promised video of some of the Test bed running I did today. This video takes it up to 4m/min run speed going in 500mm/ step ups from 2500mm/min start. I do not have video of the 5m/min run I did after that as was very careful with that one as did not want anything to wrong so had one hand on the e-stop and the other checking as able to do safely to insure nothing was over heating. Already have done a light tightening of the belts as was expected to be needed. I am going to be ordering the HDPE tomorrow for the cutting area bed and also a surfacing bit to surface it with (any suggestions up to a 8mm shaft would be useful (don't have 7mm collet but do have 1/4"). Then it is cutting jigs and parts. I will be posting more video as able.

http://youtu.be/V1NJ9zSP53o

Enjoy.

Michael

motoxy
26-02-2012, 08:58 PM
More fun than a train set eh! Well done Michael its looking good. I will pop in during the week.

Bruce

luke11cnc
26-02-2012, 09:02 PM
Looks good Mick I'm please for you now start making money to buy a water cooled spindle

James

JAZZCNC
26-02-2012, 09:20 PM
:dance::dance::dance: No sweeter sight than seeing a machine come to life :dance::dance::dance:

Only wish I could have been there to see the BIG CHEESY smile on your face.! . . ENJOY. .:beer:

m.marino
28-02-2012, 11:06 AM
You got that right Jazz.:naughty: As you know from talking to me. Well folks at an acceleration of 1250 mm a velocity of 6.25m/min was safely reached yesterday. I have ordered an bottom trim from Wealden Tools (Ouch) which will give me a 35mm surfacing ability wit up to 12mm depth. Have ordered some nice micro plunger switches from RS and will be ordering some HDPE for the working bed and making jigs with, also a small section of acrylic or something reasonable in price, rigid and machinable to make the front and back plates for the control box (thanks Bruce it is working a treat). :dance:

Kylelnsn,

I am more then glad to let you know the materials that went into this machine. The problem is I got some prices on material that where one offs and I thank the folks who help me get them as it is allowing my business to stay in business and even do more than originally planned.

The Extrusion is ITEM and I can get you their price list, the Aluminium is from Ali' warehouse, ballscrews and mounting blocks and rails are from Chai off ebay (linearmotionbearings) Current power supply is on loan from Jazz, with the final being built in house. The Stepper motors are from Gary at Zapp and are the Nema23/4 3Nm ones. Spindle currently is Kress 1050FME and will be upgraded to a 2.2kw watercooled when possible. Current Bob is an older model PCPPS (v2) from Roy at DIYCNC. Drivers are three on loan from Jazz to be replaced by the same as the 4th which will also most likely be from gary when the time comes to get them (soon the better to get the bigger ones back to Jazz). The final BOB will be from pmdx and will be a version 126 or what the current version of that model is and once able to afford it a motion control card of smoother stepper (the ethernet based model). X axis rails I believe are also from Chai via James and Luke who kindly let me have them off them for the cost of postage as they made a change in their design and did not need them.

So to all who have helped with this project, my deep and heart felt thanks. I will add to this build some more as I progress and as it develops into its final form. I am extremely Happy :toot::dance::beer: at present and finding ability in this machine that the old one does not hold a candle to.


Best wishes to all on your projects and hope things are well in your lives.

Michael

PS there is more video just go to the one that shows the 4m test and you should be able to link to the 6m/min test.

m.marino
29-02-2012, 07:06 PM
Well,

First cuts being the surfacing of the bed. Here's the link folks: http://youtu.be/bxH6B8lXTjw
Hope you enjoy and once get cutting parts will get that up as well. The limit switches arrived today are are a good bit smaller than I thought they would be. Though as long as they work and do what was said they would do we are good to go the next stage and get things set up for the tool change and probe sections.

Michael

motoxy
29-02-2012, 07:52 PM
Ah what a lovely sound of tooth on wood. Nice one Michael.

bruce

m.marino
07-03-2012, 06:56 PM
Well the work bed is drill the inserts put into the sub bed and work bed bolted down. I will be making the g-code for the brackets to hold the homing switches and sourcing some copper plate for tool changer and Zero setting probe. Also need to set up the wiring for that and get things moving on. Will post pictures and links to the cutting later tonight. Been a long 12.5 hour day in the shop or office and not done yet, but getting progress and working well.

Also been working with the tuning of the motors and that has solved a few issues. It hums nicely now and no jerkiness with movement or making pockets. It feels real good to get this far and be at the point where cutting product is within sight.

Michael

m.marino
08-03-2012, 08:39 PM
Folks video of it cutting:http://youtu.be/dDnCwK3TLkc and here: http://youtu.be/T7EW02Mux_Q and here: http://youtu.be/wO1KkYz9oOU

Hope you folks enjoy. Will be getting a new 2mm acrylic end mill as one broke in the cutting of this project ( piece was able to get free and bind the endmill.

Will keep folks posted as thing continue.

Michael

m.marino
30-03-2012, 12:31 AM
Well a small but important update.

Home and limit switches cut and installed. Tuning of the motors now within needed tolerances (.02mm or less, repeatable), going to be tramming the spindle tomorrow as that needs to be done for doing large surface cutting. Then it is time to cut and cut and cut. I might not be on often for a week or two as I get all the cutting done, but will try to post some more video.

Again thanks to all the folks that helped with this.

Michael

Lee Roberts
30-03-2012, 02:05 AM
Looking good Michael :wave:

Thanks for the vids and look forward to seeing the cuts later on !

.Me

m.marino
21-06-2012, 08:54 PM
Well some lessons that have been learned on this build:

1) It always takes twice as long as you think it will to get it done and done right.
2) Design the Machine at least three times and expect to do more.
3) Ask for critical reviews of what you are doing and keep notes.
4) Write down what you plan on doing with the machine and over build by 20- 50% (trust me on that one)
5) Account for wiring pathways when designing (IF you don't, it will bite you).
6) Account for lubrication points (See above, only worse)
7) Account for maintenance work on the machine (being able to take it a part and put it accurately back together is important)
8) Plan for upgrades and what they will be and why (few of us can afford high end equipment from the very start).
9) Be willing to learn (that means knowing when you don't really know something and finding some one who does).
10) Remember these machines are wonderful tools that will seriously mess you up if not careful.

That is what I have learned so far from the First machine (a bought unit) and this build with JAZZ. I am currently seriously busy with clients work and business projects so might not be on much but will do as able and will try to keep folks up to date with how this build is performing.

Michael

martin54
18-09-2012, 01:18 PM
Being new too the forum I haven't been following the build but just sat & read through from the start. Very interesting read & a bit of an eye opener to someone who really knows nothing about designing or building a machine.
Good to see the conclusion as well & to know it is doing the job it was built to do. Hopefully Michael will have time in the future to update this thread as the machine develops further but customers have to come first lol.

TrickyCNC
18-09-2012, 09:31 PM
Well,

First cuts being the surfacing of the bed. Here's the link folks: CNC First cuts surfacing - YouTube (http://youtu.be/bxH6B8lXTjw)
Hope you enjoy and once get cutting parts will get that up as well. The limit switches arrived today are are a good bit smaller than I thought they would be. Though as long as they work and do what was said they would do we are good to go the next stage and get things set up for the tool change and probe sections.

Michael

Hi Micheal,
is that 2.5M per minute ? it looks slower in the vid ?
I'm used to working in inches, so I might be missing something in the translation.


Rich

m.marino
18-09-2012, 10:35 PM
Yep,

That was 2.5 m/min, though at that time I was only using about 500 mm/sec^2 acceleration. That and surfacing 850 mm by 350 mm does take a bit of time even at that speed I will be cutting some combs tomorrow and should be able to show what 1.8 m/min looks like in a small area. The difference being 1250 mm/sec^2 acceleration and using much higher quality electronic control hardware.

As it is need to be looking into a better swarf shield then what I am currently using or a way to improve it. The plastic sheeting I am using for the curtain is curling in at the bottom and opening gaps.

Michael.

TrickyCNC
18-09-2012, 10:45 PM
aghh ! I hate metric ! LOL !

I surface mine at 120IPM, which I worked out should be approx 3M/Min for comparison, but mine seems to appear to move faster, than yours in the vid, so I was wondering if I got my translation wrong.. Although......, now I think about it....., I surface manually with the jog keys, so it would be 180IPM, which is approx 4.5m/min ?, which would explain why it seemed faster ! doh!!!

sorry ... as you were .... :)

Rich

m.marino
29-10-2012, 09:30 AM
Well,

Taking note from Bruce. My machine is now fully up and running minus the new power supply which is taking a bit longer than expected to get done (want to make sure I get it right). I have had a few minor issues crop up, but other then that it is running very well and cutting any material I have asked it to (Aluminium is no problem now just messy). I will be getting the design for the ducts collector shoe from Bruce and will be fitting that. Will trying out a few other materials over the week and will post in a different thread as this build is done with the afore mentioned exceptions.

I hope folks can learn from it and again a big thanks to those who helped as not only do I have a machine that does everything I needed when it was built but even more (which means things I did not think of can and have come up can get done as well).

Michael