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JoeHarris
03-10-2016, 11:15 PM
Has anyone got any experience of these?
https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor/Nema23-4Nm/Stepper-Motor-4Nm-60BYGH401-03-Nema23

Was wondering if it might be man enough to belt drive my x-axis??? I have no real issue with a nema 34 and 240v drive but would the 4nm nema 23 be faster..? The old issue of wanting this machine to do wood and aluminium! And remembering I have 5mm pitch screws.

njhussey
03-10-2016, 11:18 PM
I've got an 8Nm Nema 34 in my X axis and 240V drive but 10mm pitch screws....you could always go 2:1 on the pulleys. I cut plastics at 7500mm/sec and that's plenty quick enough 😁

How heavy is your X axis?

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Clive S
03-10-2016, 11:27 PM
I cut plastics at 7500mm/sec and that's plenty quick enough 😁Neil Are you sure:whistle:

JoeHarris
03-10-2016, 11:27 PM
I'm not sure on the weight, not crazy as it is ali extrusion and 20mm plate - pretty standard L design! It wasn't standard when I started but people keep starting and finishing their builds while I keep trudging along at a snails pace! I was planning on going 2:1. Have you cut much wood - how slow can you go?!

JoeHarris
03-10-2016, 11:29 PM
Neil Are you sure:whistle:

Per min I'm guessing!

njhussey
03-10-2016, 11:32 PM
Neil Are you sure:whistle:
Oops....its late and I was moving house all weekend....still at the old rented house now touching up paint, filling holes etc.....

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JoeHarris
03-10-2016, 11:32 PM
Quick progress shot to prove I haven't given up! http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161003/9642671996388331f0e557df822d6532.jpg

njhussey
03-10-2016, 11:32 PM
Per min I'm guessing!
Erm....yes...per sec would be going some!!!!!

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JoeHarris
03-10-2016, 11:33 PM
Oops....its late and I was moving house all weekend....still at the old rented house now touching up paint, filling holes etc.....

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Bet your glad your machine is a work! I don't fancy moving this beast!

njhussey
03-10-2016, 11:47 PM
Too right....had to use the forklift once it was on its frame, far too heavy to lift!

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Clive S
04-10-2016, 10:03 AM
Certainly looking good Joe. Re the nema 24 I use one on the Z on my mill but on the router very similar to yours I use two 23's but Dean when using one belt for the two screws uses a nema 34 but no doubt he will confirm this for you.

JAZZCNC
04-10-2016, 04:51 PM
Joe that 4nm 23 will struggle with 2 x 5mm pitch screws. It will turn them no problem but you'll have to sacrifice speed and with only 5mm pitch your already down on speed. I'd estimate you'll get around 4mtr/min Max rapid speed which isn't really enough for router. Idealy you'd want at least double this.

With 5mm pitch you'll struggle to get this with any single stepper motor 34 or 23 unless you go for larger motor and use ratio 1:2 ie Big pulley on motor small on screw. You need the larger motor becuase the ratio lowers torque not increases. Also you'll lose resolution but because you effectively have too much to start with this isn't problem.
My original machine ran with 6Nm with 2005mm pitch screws on 1:2 ratio running on 70Vdc and worked perfectly for well over 5yrs.

My advise is either change to 10mm pitch with small ratio if using 4nm 23 or go with twin motors.

To give you some idea I've just built 2 x 1250 x 750 sized machines that are using twin 2010 screws with no ratio applied running on single 4.5Nm 34 with 72Vdc using AM882 drives and they are tuned at 10mtr/min.

JoeHarris
04-10-2016, 08:39 PM
Thanks Dean, I don't really want to have to replace the screws. This is what I mean about time passing - I based that decision on your old machine!! Would the larger mains voltage driver make a difference to speed? Are you saying a 4nm 23 could drive both of the screws if they were 2010? If so that would be a significant saving...

JAZZCNC
04-10-2016, 10:33 PM
Would the larger mains voltage driver make a difference to speed?

Well yes it would but still you'll be limited mostly by the 5mm pitch. Simple maths really 1000rpm would give 5mtr/min but with 10mm that would be 10mtr/min for same RPM. The larger motors start to lose Torque quickly after 1000rpm so at best you'll get 1500rpm which is only 7500mtr/min.
Even then at 1500rpm your in the region where screw whip can start to become issue.


Are you saying a 4nm 23 could drive both of the screws if they were 2010? If so that would be a significant saving...

Yes it would, esp if 16mm dia but like I say you'll need ratio to increase torque. This will come at the cost of speed so you'll still be down in the 7500mtr/min area.

If it was me I'd go with 34 and run them on 70vdc and see what you get. 8nm should get you around 5-6mtr/min before saturation takes affect. Then if want little extra speed apply ratio to increase. 8nm will have enough spare power to handle the ratio.

JoeHarris
04-10-2016, 11:13 PM
If it was me I'd go with 34 and run them on 70vdc and see what you get. 8nm should get you around 5-6mtr/min before saturation takes affect. Then if want little extra speed apply ratio to increase. 8nm will have enough spare power to handle the ratio.

Thanks for the patient explanation. Just so I'm clear are you saying 5-6m/min with 5mm or 10mm screws?

The things I have decided so far are:

> I want to use a csmio/ip-m
> I want to use it properly which means 3 motors and long belt on x
> I will use em806 drives on z and y with the 1605 screws I already have

The options are (all could be with or without ratio)

1. Stick with 2005 screws on x powered by 8nm nema 34 stepper and 240v drive
2. Stick with 2005 screws on x powered by 8nm nema 34 stepper and another em806
3. Swap screws for 2010 on x powered by 8nm nema 34 stepper and another em806

In order of preference I'm guessing you would say 3, 1, 2?

If I went with 2 as a starter I could see how it goes and swap out the screws in future... It's the only option which isn't insanely expensive!

JAZZCNC
05-10-2016, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the patient explanation. Just so I'm clear are you saying 5-6m/min with 5mm or 10mm screws?

With 5mm pitch.


If I went with 2 as a starter I could see how it goes and swap out the screws in future... It's the only option which isn't insanely expensive!

This is why I'd go with the setup suggested. Easy to change up without costing the earth. If you make good job of alignment etc then you'll get 5-6mtr/min. Stick small ratio on and you'll get the speed up to point can cut most things.

JoeHarris
05-10-2016, 11:24 PM
With 5mm pitch.



This is why I'd go with the setup suggested. Easy to change up without costing the earth. If you make good job of alignment etc then you'll get 5-6mtr/min. Stick small ratio on and you'll get the speed up to point can cut most things.

OK thanks Dean, sounds good. Tried to email chai to get best special price for some 2010s but email bounced... Wonder if he is still in business?!

Is 6mH inductance reasonable for a 8.7nm 34? i.e. this fella: https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor/Nema34/Stepper-Motor-8.7Nm-86HS115-4208-Nema34

JAZZCNC
06-10-2016, 12:00 AM
OK thanks Dean, sounds good. Tried to email chai to get best special price for some 2010s but email bounced... Wonder if he is still in business?!

Is 6mH inductance reasonable for a 8.7nm 34? i.e. this fella: https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor/Nema34/Stepper-Motor-8.7Nm-86HS115-4208-Nema34

Drop Fred at BST automation on ali express message asking for quote. He's good guy to deal with.

Yes 6mH is ok for such large motor. I've used these and nice motors.

JoeHarris
06-10-2016, 12:07 AM
I got my hiwin rails from Fred and yes agree he was very good. I'm working on a circuit diagram at the moment - hope to have that uploaded for scrutiny (a laugh at any rate) by you lot in a few days, so good to have that cleared up, cheers.

JoeHarris
08-10-2016, 12:05 AM
Practice run for the next bit of aluminium routing. Pleased with my new Trend jig which should make pocketing for the motor mounts a lot easier. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161007/54f99ddcf6958e81ef03746361176dea.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161007/a540d2aedaab4e39dee97ad9ef6b1098.jpg

njhussey
10-10-2016, 04:59 PM
Coming along nicely Joe....liking the progress even if it is slow...you've still got a long way to go to beat how long it took me to make mine :beer:

JoeHarris
11-10-2016, 07:06 PM
Thanks Neil,

the encouragement is appreciated!

JoeHarris
12-10-2016, 02:20 PM
19425
Attached is my first crack at a circuit diagram for the machine. I am not sure that I have got the pilz right and I think the estop circuit in general could do with some work as the spindle is not currently part of it. Do I connect to the same contractor I have for the stepper drive power supplies or another? I have a couple of relays left on the pilz X1 if I need them... Also, I'm sure I have read that you shouldn't just cut power to the VFD...?

I'll continue to work on it (and research) but thought I'd put it up for your amusement! As always any comment gratefully received :hopelessness:

(Just realised that the resolution reduces when you upload. I will try and sort out the text sizes as they are pretty fuzzy in places)

Clive S
12-10-2016, 02:49 PM
Joe The text is a bit small to read. You are showing a 68V power supply does this also provide the 12V to the fans

JoeHarris
12-10-2016, 02:57 PM
Joe The text is a bit small to read. You are showing a 68V power supply does this also provide the 12V to the fans

Sorry about the text. It looked OK until I uploaded it. When I get a minute I'll pump it up. Yes the 68v leadshine power supply powers the fans via 12v auxiliary: http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products&category=power-supplies&producttype=linear&model=PS806-12

JAZZCNC
12-10-2016, 03:26 PM
Not very easy to read labels but I suspect your using the HV option on controller to turn on contactor.?
Don't use it my self because it's pain in arse.? It will drop the power to drives every time you put mach into reset. This means because the motors jump when powering drives you'll have to home the machine everytime mach goes into reset. Many times that will be ok but there are others when you don't want that. Like when making simple setting change etc.
I'd just have the E-stop safety relay switch contactor on.

Couple of small things I see.

#1 Fuse the Water pump.
#2 Run water pump 0V thru VFD relay so only comes on when spindle running.

Regards VFD power then wouldn't get too OCD about it.! The controller will Stop it spinning when see's E-stop so could leave it out of the E-stop system if you like.
But if you do want to Kill it then use Timer relay which is set to drop power after spindle stops spinning. Personaly I wouldn't bother because the few times you will Kill power while spindle is spinning won't hurt the VFD. Plus the VFD takes several sec's to power down anyway because of Caps. By which time spindle will have stopped.! . . . . . Anyway If Cutter is embedded in your hand you won't really care because you'll passout before VFD powers down.:hysterical:

JoeHarris
12-10-2016, 03:31 PM
Not very easy to read labels but I suspect your using the HV option on controller to turn on contactor.?
Don't use it my self because it's pain in arse.? It will drop the power to drives every time you put mach into reset. This means because the motors jump when powering drives you'll have to home the machine everytime mach goes into reset. Many times that will be ok but there are others when you don't want that. Like when making simple setting change etc.
I'd just have the E-stop safety relay switch contactor on.

Couple of small things I see.

#1 Fuse the Water pump.
#2 Run water pump 0V thru VFD relay so only comes on when spindle running.

Regards VFD power then wouldn't get too OCD about it.! The controller will Stop it spinning when see's E-stop so could leave it out of the E-stop system if you like.
But if you do want to Kill it then use Timer relay which is set to drop power after spindle stops spinning. Personaly I wouldn't bother because the few times you will Kill power while spindle is spinning won't hurt the VFD. Plus the VFD takes several sec's to power down anyway because of Caps. By which time spindle will have stopped.! . . . . . Anyway If Cutter is embedded in your hand you won't really care because you'll passout before VFD powers down.:hysterical:

Thanks Dean! I'll make some changes and up the text size. Appreciate the help.

mekanik
12-10-2016, 07:39 PM
Hi Guys
Don't know is it's just my old iMac but if i open the attachment then double click on it it opens a browser window and the screen can be enlarged with mouse click making the text legible.
Regards
Mike

njhussey
12-10-2016, 07:40 PM
Hi Guys
Don't know is it's just my old iMac but if i open the attachment then double click on it it opens a browser window and the screen can be enlarged with mouse click making the text legible.
Regards
Mike
It's them old buggers Mike....forgot to put their glasses on [emoji12]

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JAZZCNC
12-10-2016, 07:44 PM
It's them old buggers Mike....forgot to put their glasses on [emoji12]

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Hey your not far wrong I've blown 2 transformer up because didn't put my glasses on . . . Lol

But in this case the small writing for the I/O still isn't clear. Well on my PC anyway.!!

JoeHarris
12-10-2016, 10:38 PM
The human toolpath is pretty smooth despite appearances - characterful!! http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161012/18b6cc900e4d848d7053dc1e2c118958.jpg

JoeHarris
12-10-2016, 11:38 PM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161012/d069ab0dd7568e939d5fa120e56f2556.jpgVibration white finger here I come! http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161012/f165169fd2efe22244e8c6004d84b4ea.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161012/aa942e97ea0b48456758ba433414da1e.jpg

njhussey
13-10-2016, 08:44 AM
Coming along nicely...love shiney machined aluminium pictures 😁

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Wobblycogs
13-10-2016, 11:50 AM
Looks great, how long did it take to mill / rout out?

JoeHarris
13-10-2016, 12:29 PM
Looks great, how long did it take to mill / rout out?

Not as long as I thought - half an hour or so. I took 1/2mm per pass which was more aggressive than the last time but was fine. So 32 passes with a 10mm carbide end mill.

Wobblycogs
13-10-2016, 02:41 PM
Yeah, 0.5mm is about what I've taken when I've tried routing aluminium, quite honestly though it scares me but my fence set up wasn't as good as yours. It's not too bad if you've got a decent spray of WD40 on it but I couldn't get past the feeling that it was going to catch and rip the router out of my hands.

JoeHarris
13-10-2016, 02:44 PM
Yeah, 0.5mm is about what I've taken when I've tried routing aluminium, quite honestly though it scares me but my fence set up wasn't as good as yours. It's not too bad if you've got a decent spray of WD40 on it but I couldn't get past the feeling that it was going to catch and rip the router out of my hands.

I know what you mean, I wouldn't want to do it with a smaller router. A cheap 1/4 inch would be terrifying!

JoeHarris
13-10-2016, 06:37 PM
19440
I have not had a chance to update this much but you should now be able to read it at least. :distrust:

JoeHarris
18-10-2016, 02:25 PM
Not very easy to read labels but I suspect your using the HV option on controller to turn on contactor.?
Don't use it my self because it's pain in arse.? It will drop the power to drives every time you put mach into reset. This means because the motors jump when powering drives you'll have to home the machine everytime mach goes into reset. Many times that will be ok but there are others when you don't want that. Like when making simple setting change etc.
I'd just have the E-stop safety relay switch contactor on.

Couple of small things I see.

#1 Fuse the Water pump.
#2 Run water pump 0V thru VFD relay so only comes on when spindle running.

Regards VFD power then wouldn't get too OCD about it.! The controller will Stop it spinning when see's E-stop so could leave it out of the E-stop system if you like.
But if you do want to Kill it then use Timer relay which is set to drop power after spindle stops spinning. Personaly I wouldn't bother because the few times you will Kill power while spindle is spinning won't hurt the VFD. Plus the VFD takes several sec's to power down anyway because of Caps. By which time spindle will have stopped.! . . . . . Anyway If Cutter is embedded in your hand you won't really care because you'll passout before VFD powers down.:hysterical:

Thanks for the Help!

I have added a fuse to the water pump (not sure what ampage for that yet as haven't chosen a pump yet.)

I have added another contactor and a switch on the 24v circuit to control the pump and VFD

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you just have the E-stop safety relay switch the contactor on. Presumably I still want the drive fault signals connected to the pilz?

19469

Also, I am struggling with grounding the various components. Do I need to connect the motors or drives back to the star ground and if so, how?!

Also should the earth terminal on the VFD just go back to the earth terminal on the plug or the star ground and should the CSMIO just go back to the star ground or should this also be connected back the earth on the power plug?

I know similar questions have been asked and answered elsewhere but I'm struggling to piece it all together...

Thanks guys.

JoeHarris
22-10-2016, 12:35 AM
A bit more work with the drill, bandsaw, router and belt sander followed by a lot of work with a needle file I've almost finished my first motor mount!http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/0f8fd92f4d9a8b37edcb2d67f993a66d.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/d410e386295ad25a293d55d842f36245.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/bbf7ed2bfb1a9458e60220febd53dba5.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/e5b8c85842981dcf1eb451a8940aa2c8.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/f73c7515c332ac97a1438eff88cc6047.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/34b935b66e4d2cb2f2e9b1d3202a60bd.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/285ebfac0a9ba3750f7508bb76ba9ca4.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/149e75ed8c67df7a02f10a470a213b0d.jpg

routercnc
22-10-2016, 10:08 AM
Great work Joe, nearly there now. Frustrating thing is making that bracket would be really quick with a CNC machine!

JAZZCNC
22-10-2016, 10:31 AM
Great work Joe, nearly there now. Frustrating thing is making that bracket would be really quick with a CNC machine!

I bet joe really appreciated you saying that and when is fingers have stopped bleeding started working again after the 20hrs filling I'm sure he'll thank you.!! . . Ya teasing bugger.:hysterical:

Joe this machine is and will be credit to you and one of very few machines that can truely be called hand built. It should be and will be by me anyway, held up to all those wanting to building machine who don't have machinery to help and think it can't be done.

If this site had an award for best build I'd vote you the winner.:encouragement:

Clive S
22-10-2016, 10:52 AM
Funny I was just thinking the same thing. Keep going Joe its certainly coming together.

JoeHarris
22-10-2016, 12:04 PM
Funny I was just thinking the same thing. Keep going Joe its certainly coming together.


I bet joe really appreciated you saying that and when is fingers have stopped bleeding started working again after the 20hrs filling I'm sure he'll thank you.!! . . Ya teasing bugger.:hysterical:

Joe this machine is and will be credit to you and one of very few machines that can truely be called hand built. It should be and will be by me anyway, held up to all those wanting to building machine who don't have machinery to help and think it can't be done.

If this site had an award for best build I'd vote you the winner.:encouragement:

Cheers guys, definitely could not have got this far without your help! Really appreciate the guidance and encouragement and hopefully one day it will move by itself!

JoeHarris
22-10-2016, 12:05 PM
Great work Joe, nearly there now. Frustrating thing is making that bracket would be really quick with a CNC machine!

Haha yep had the same thought myself a few times! Kind of fun making it with basic equipment though

njhussey
22-10-2016, 06:27 PM
Looking better and better Joe, can't wait to see this finished...looks a cracking machine.

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Lee Roberts
22-10-2016, 08:24 PM
Funny I was just thinking the same thing. Keep going Joe its certainly coming together.
Funny I was thinking 2 days ago if or not to introduce a BOTM or something, build of the month may be a bit hard to do every month so yearly sounds better?

100 prize, t-shirt, mouse mat all the normal goodies, hobnobs for the runners up?

routercnc
22-10-2016, 09:40 PM
Funny I was thinking 2 days ago if or not to introduce a BOTM or something, build of the month may be a bit hard to do every month so yearly sounds better?

100 prize, t-shirt, mouse mat all the normal goodies, hobnobs for the runners up?

Sounds like a good idea. Are you thinking of judging it yourself, or more of an open forum vote? Maybe awarded some time just before Christmas as an end of year 'well done'.

Lee Roberts
24-10-2016, 01:10 AM
Sounds like a good idea. Are you thinking of judging it yourself, or more of an open forum vote? Maybe awarded some time just before Christmas as an end of year 'well done'.

No no community vote, can put up a poll with the option to vote for your/each favorite entry. Yea my thoughts exactly, what would be better, is if we could get some prizes donated from a few of the usual suppliers, so things people would like rather than cash.

Could do a POTM, part of the month could work better for the smaller less valuable prizes, more importantly I think is this one may encourage people to share more about the things they make once up and running...most seem to build then leave us hanging with regards to their cnc career adventure vs their cnc build journey...

Its nice to see the fruits of labour too !

Lee Roberts
24-10-2016, 04:45 PM
"No no community vote" should be read as "no no of course it would be a community vote".

Sorry, after reading that bit back I wasn't sure it would be interpreted how I intended :thumsup:

njhussey
24-10-2016, 05:39 PM
No no no no....yes 😁

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routercnc
24-10-2016, 10:23 PM
"No no community vote" should be read as "no no of course it would be a community vote".

Sorry, after reading that bit back I wasn't sure it would be interpreted how I intended :thumsup:

I read it a few times and thought you must have meant community vote as per post #300. Wondering if post #297 onward could be split off to give Joe his thread back?
Looking forward to seeing what commercial interest there might be after you put the feelers out.

Lee Roberts
25-10-2016, 11:27 AM
No no no no....yes

yes yes confirmed.


Wondering if post #297 onward could be split off to give Joe his thread back? Looking forward to seeing what commercial interest there might be after you put the feelers out.

Will do, was hoping some of you lot would want to get more involved and man the organizing/setting up?, someone to "take the reins" as they say would be nice.

I cant do everything, all at the same time. Wish I was an octopus i've got that much going on, if no one wants to lead the way on this then it will just be something I do at my own leisure.

I'm still not well at all so the last thing I need right now is more things to stress about, I'd much rather wait and fully enjoy the endeavour.

.

JoeHarris
03-12-2016, 12:58 AM
Small update: https://vimeo.com/194115391


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Clive S
03-12-2016, 09:06 AM
It's alive, well nearly :thumsup: Always nice to see it move

Neale
03-12-2016, 09:14 AM
Yes, great moment when something moves under power! Now, if you can sync two cordless drills for testing master plus slave axes...

Edit - just flicked back and see you are using the long-belt sync method. Saves requirement for synchronised cordless drills :smile:

JoeHarris
03-12-2016, 09:31 AM
Yes, great moment when something moves under power! Now, if you can sync two cordless drills for testing master plus slave axes...

Edit - just flicked back and see you are using the long-belt sync method. Saves requirement for synchronised cordless drills :smile:

Haha yes!


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njhussey
03-12-2016, 10:32 AM
I always fancied using my router like an etch-a-sketch with drills 😁 Well done Joe, its getting better and better...

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