3 Axis CNC router

[Neale]

No, don't think it would do any harm.

[m_c]

Plugging the terminator in shouldn't do any harm, either will leaving it off, as without any expansion modules, the CAN bus won't be doing much.

The purpose of it is to stop signals from reflecting/bouncing of the end of the CAN bus wiring, and causing interference.

[JoeHarris]

Thanks to the Legend that is Dean I got a stepper to move last night - woohoo!

https://youtu.be/59WaetUDAtU

[Nr1madman]

Awsome!! :D

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalk

[Nickhofen]

Very nice!
In a few days you will make dust....men glitter!!!:loyal:

[routercnc]

Anything on the machine which moves by itself counts as 'first movement' so woo-hoo indeed ! Nice one Joe and nice one Dean where ever you are ! :encouragement:

[grain_r]

Well Done Joe.

Your thread is a constant spur on for me. I'm in the same position of young children and no time so I know how well you are doing to move the build on.
You will have to start designing those things that you dreamed of making when it was a If only I had a CNC machine I could make ??????.

[JoeHarris]

Actual, real life, jogging movement on Y, ladies and gentlemen:
https://youtu.be/GfsmxBR0q3c


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[routercnc]

Actual, real life, jogging movement on Y, ladies and gentlemen:
https://youtu.be/GfsmxBR0q3c


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice one Joe getting closer

Sounds nice and smooth too so general alignment and straightness of ballscrew is pretty good

[Clive S]

When's the party Joe :applause::beer:

[Nickhofen]

Awesome and as routercnc said it sounds to work smooth,(I write that to show that I know something from cnc machines), lol,you are almost there man,carry on!!!

[JoeHarris]

Getting close now... two axis moving, spindle on and spinning.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/a725ce51f58dfad4a16cf52de534db7f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/ee478329df74b6385213bf7cc851becc.jpg

[JoeHarris]

Hello all,

Bit of an explanation of my limit switch wiring and video of all axis now moving below:


https://youtu.be/YhuqM_D9lS8

https://www.youtube.com/user/joerharris

[reefy86]

Must be proud of your self :) still watching your video's so well done mate.

[JoeHarris]

I have been busily getting my head around fusion 360 in the background (very nice programme, can't believe they let the likes of me use it for nothing!) and sent my first programme to the machine this evening and of course things did not go quite to plan.

The intention was to cut a small pocket 55x55mm with a 1/2" router bit (12.7mm)

This was all set up correctly in fusion (I think) and it cut fine, albeit far too slow (I'll up the feed rate next time around), but the problem came when I measured the part - see pictures below... any ideas!?

After all this time building, it is dawning on me that I have no idea how to use this new tool of mine :(

Edit: Sorry - pictures make this look worse than it is as I forgot to zero the calipers! I'll take some new pictures...

[JoeHarris]

New pics after previous post - prob need to run the calibration wizard in the settings window of MACH3 again... but being out by 0.8mm in one direction and 1.4mm in the other does not seem a great starting point.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/2dc1dff21201779353329b5d826cdea8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/eb6a8e9bcb80571571e2a28957793e72.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clive S]

Joe don't get despondent, this is normal when first getting the machine calibrated. Check it over a greater distance say 300mm in fresh air ie. in the midi type g1 f500 x300 and check to see if it has move exactly 300mm then do the same on Y ie type Y300 and check that. you might have to amend the steps per.

[JoeHarris]

Joe don't get despondent, this is normal when first getting the machine calibrated. Check it over a greater distance say 300mm in fresh air ie. in the midi type g1 f500 x300 and check to see if it has move exactly 300mm then do the same on Y ie type Y300 and check that. you might have to amend the steps per.

Thanks Clive, it was nice to see it cutting at last and I’m sure I will get it all sorted but I have quite a few things to fix and finish and I’m getting very impatient!! I will have another go tomorrow...

[njhussey]

Hi Joe, good to see your machine is moving, albeit not as accurately as it should! I've been using my machine for a while...as you can see from the state of the bed (sacrificial) I still make mistakes. Every day is a learning day [emoji16] [emoji106]

Hope you get it sorted soon [emoji106]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/586b726a425d5802e0f8f788acf49b0b.jpg

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

[Nickhofen]

No big deal.
Like Clive said you run the calibration and Mach 3 asks if the axis you calibrate,each time,moved at the distance you want,you put the correct distance in the proper box and you see the machine do the correction!
Nice to make the first cut , especially with a machine you build, right?

[Neale]

I shudder every time I see someone suggesting using the calibration routine in Mach3! If the machine is giving errors this big, then you need to find out why, rather than hide it under the carpet. You are using ballscrews which are almost as accurate as your digital caliper. You know how you have geared (if not 1-1) your motor to the ballscrew. You know what microstep setting you have used. This gives an exact "steps per" value, and if the machine isn't achieving this, you really need to find out why. For example, it might be as simple as needing to check the adjustment of the ballscrew support bearings - and whether they were assembled correctly in the first place (don't trust the Chinese to get this right!).

Double-check everything first, including actual cutter diameter (I spent ages chasing machine errors that were down to cutter diameter errors, although that's not the case with differing errors in X and Y), and don't panic. You'll get to the bottom of it with a bit of systematic testing!

Good luck - we've all been there.

[JoeHarris]

Thanks everyone! Neale, how tight should the ballscrew tensioning nuts be tightened? I’ve seen that people shim these but not sure how it is done tbh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JoeHarris]

I shudder every time I see someone suggesting using the calibration routine in Mach3! If the machine is giving errors this big, then you need to find out why, rather than hide it under the carpet. You are using ballscrews which are almost as accurate as your digital caliper. You know how you have geared (if not 1-1) your motor to the ballscrew. You know what microstep setting you have used. This gives an exact "steps per" value, and if the machine isn't achieving this, you really need to find out why. For example, it might be as simple as needing to check the adjustment of the ballscrew support bearings - and whether they were assembled correctly in the first place (don't trust the Chinese to get this right!).

Double-check everything first, including actual cutter diameter (I spent ages chasing machine errors that were down to cutter diameter errors, although that's not the case with differing errors in X and Y), and don't panic. You'll get to the bottom of it with a bit of systematic testing!

Good luck - we've all been there.

Thanks everyone! Neale, how tight should the ballscrew tensioning nuts be tightened? I’ve seen that people shim these but not sure how it is done tbh

[JoeHarris]

I shudder every time I see someone suggesting using the calibration routine in Mach3! If the machine is giving errors this big, then you need to find out why, rather than hide it under the carpet. You are using ballscrews which are almost as accurate as your digital caliper. You know how you have geared (if not 1-1) your motor to the ballscrew. You know what microstep setting you have used. This gives an exact "steps per" value, and if the machine isn't achieving this, you really need to find out why. For example, it might be as simple as needing to check the adjustment of the ballscrew support bearings - and whether they were assembled correctly in the first place (don't trust the Chinese to get this right!).

Double-check everything first, including actual cutter diameter (I spent ages chasing machine errors that were down to cutter diameter errors, although that's not the case with differing errors in X and Y), and don't panic. You'll get to the bottom of it with a bit of systematic testing!

Good luck - we've all been there.

Thanks everyone! Neale, how tight should the ballscrew tensioning nuts be tightened? I’ve seen that people shim these but not sure how it is done tbh

[JAZZCNC]

You know how you have geared (if not 1-1) your motor to the ballscrew. You know what microstep setting you have used. This gives an exact "steps per" value, and if the machine isn't achieving this, you really need to find out why.

Actually neal it's not that simple and I pretty much guarantee you that if your using timing belts then the steps per won't work out per the calcs.
This is one reason why mach's calibration is best used for most people who are using belts and only have basic measuring tools.
Even then it still won't be spot on and can be improved upon. But to do this you need Linear scales and to measure over large distance.

When I build a machine I initially set it up using the calcs then I fine tune using linear scales and EVERY TIME the steps per is different to the calcs. Close but it's always bit lower or bit higher.

[JoeHarris]

So I tried the calibration tool in MACH3 this evening. Moved a centre finder 600mm up the x axis against a steel rule. To the eye it was bang on. Moved it 500mm on y axis and it was maybe out by 0.5mm over that distance. So why was it out over 50mm when cutting??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clive S]

So I tried the calibration tool in MACH3 this evening. Moved a centre finder 600mm up the x axis against a steel rule. To the eye it was bang on. Moved it 500mm on y axis and it was maybe out by 0.5mm over that distance. So why was it out over 50mm when cutting??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it missing steps? What are you setting for that axis?

[JAZZCNC]

Is it missing steps? What are you setting for that axis?

Clives right it's missing steps but not because of anything you have done or the machine.!!

It's most likely the Step pulse is on then wrong side of the slope. It happens often with IP-M and Leadshine drives or any drive that can select the leading edge.

Easy to see and easy to fix. The test is to knock up some G-code which moves say 500 times from point A to B doesn't matter how far.
So G0 x10 then back to X3 repeated 500 times will be plenty. Then last move back to X0.
What I do is setup dial gauge and zero out against the axis. Then run code, this why only move to X3 so not smacking gauge each move then last move back to it with X0.

If out it will soon become clear.

If doing this the fix is to go into MOTOR OUTPUTS and toggle the Step Lo box. This is the only box other than Enable that IP-M uses on that screen.

Hope this fixes you.

[JoeHarris]

Clive, Jazz, thanks that makes sense - I remember reading but not understanding this in the ipm manual! I’ll give it a go and see. Could not understand how it could be loosing steps on such a light cut.... cheers guys


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

Clive, Jazz, thanks that makes sense - I remember reading but not understanding this in the ipm manual! I’ll give it a go and see. Could not understand how it could be loosing steps on such a light cut.... cheers guys


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

99% sure it will be that Joe. (Provided nothings lose or falling off machine which knowng you sure it won't be..lol)
Happens 50% of the time with these controller/drive combo and it's something I check for has matter routine. Can happen on any controller really but with the IP-M or S happens randomly depending on how drives setup. Esp if not used tuning software to check Rising edge setting in drive.

Edit: For anyone else reading this that doesn't have Cslabs controller but as similair problem then the same can apply.
The test and fix is the same. Or if the the drives have option to change the leading edge setting use this. Both work same.

[Neale]

I saw exactly the same problem on my machine. X and Y were fine, but Z looked as if it were losing steps on complex 3D work. In my case, it didn't show up on single test runs; what seemed to happen was that you lost one step every time you changed direction. Fix was simple - as Jazz said, just change step polarity. I think this is more likely to happen with the CSMIO controllers as they have differential outputs - brilliant for noise rejection, but too easy to get the two wires swapped!

My only reservation about this diagnosis is that I wouldn't expect to see any significant error on a single movement, as the effect is cumulative with movement direction changes. But Jazz's test (I did exactly the same thing when I was chasing the error) will soon show the truth!

[JAZZCNC]

what seemed to happen was that you lost one step every time you changed direction.

That's exactly what happens because the last pulse gets sent after the next direction change happens so it gets dropped.

To be honest, can happen on any system. The reason it tends to happen on these is that of the flexibility both drives and controller give. Meaning it's easy for one or other to be set wrong. Majority of older or lesser drives only allow rising edge which is ok for most sytems until you get controller that use's the falling edge.!!

[JoeHarris]

Thanks Dean, I'll have a look and see. I don't think anything is loose or falling off!! Only one I'm not sure on is how tight the square shaped nuts on the BK bearing block should be and whether they are perfectly set up. I've done the best I can, but when jogging the machine rapidly in alternating directions on the X axis it does sometime make a noise and appears to momentarily stall. I'm not sure what that's about and it doesn't do it consistently but wondered if that could be connected to differing tension on the two ball screws? I did not get this when cutting or doing the calibration tests at the weekend. I'll try and video it so you can see what I mean...

[JoeHarris]

Thanks Neale, on a single movement there is very little error, only when cutting a test pocket with changes in direction did i see the error so I'm hoping this is the explanation. Whilst I've taken care throughout the build and asked a lot of questions, I have made this machine with basic tools and basic skills, so I'm sure it's not just down to calibration!

[Desertboy]

I read sometimes the seals on the ballscrew can be tight when new so when you first run the machines they can stick a little, the solution run it up and down the full length of the travel a few times. Greasing can help to.

I had a sticky bit right at the end of my travel on one of my Y ballscrews kept firing a stall detect at me, after 10 to 15 running up and down the lengths occasionally stalling the problem disapeared. The area where it stalled is now part of my homing sequence so it gets travelled over regulary never stalled again.

[JAZZCNC]

I had a sticky bit right at the end of my travel on one of my Y ballscrews kept firing a stall detect at me, after 10 to 15 running up and down the lengths occasionally stalling the problem disapeared. The area where it stalled is now part of my homing sequence so it gets travelled over regulary never stalled again.

That's most likely to be alignment issue not sticky seals. To be honest I've fitted 100's ballscrews and never had sticky seal on the ballnut(presume you mean ballnut seal)

Now what can happen is often the spacers on the BK bearings are not long enough and the seal in BK bearing can rub on the screw.
This tends to happen mostly on cheap BK bearings. Also on cheap BK bearings, like what Chai Sells, the bearings are not always shimmed correctly or even in wrong way round so when tightening the nut they will bind.

Joe If BK's came from Fred at BST then you can tighten them fully and they won't bind. Fred BK bearings are light years better than Chai's.

[JoeHarris]

I think I have found the culprit, there was (much to my annoyance) a loose grub screw on one of the y pulleys which I noticed whilst running Jazz’s pulse test. With this tightened down and thread locked all seems to be well... The test results can be seen here:
https://youtu.be/hsT3GkAq9T8

[JoeHarris]

That's most likely to be alignment issue not sticky seals. To be honest I've fitted 100's ballscrews and never had sticky seal on the ballnut(presume you mean ballnut seal)

Now what can happen is often the spacers on the BK bearings are not long enough and the seal in BK bearing can rub on the screw.
This tends to happen mostly on cheap BK bearings. Also on cheap BK bearings, like what Chai Sells, the bearings are not always shimmed correctly or even in wrong way round so when tightening the nut they will bind.

Joe If BK's came from Fred at BST then you can tighten them fully and they won't bind. Fred BK bearings are light years better than Chai's.

My Hiwins came from Fred but ballscrews and bk/bf bearings from chai.... not wild about taking them apart especially now!

[Desertboy]

I hadn't squared the gantry up at this point so very possible it was alignment, if would be about the same time. It has taken me ages to get dual homing working.

Hmm interesting with the bearings will have a look, I have a spare BK12/BF12 fitting to strip down. But will make sure I buy my bearings from Fred next time I keep seeing his name mentioned.

[Clive S]

It has taken me ages to get dual homing working. If you have this now working with 2.8 master would you mind posting the hal & ini files.

[Desertboy]

If you have this now working with 2.8 master would you mind posting the hal & ini files.

Will do, not at work today but will go in to play in a bit I'll post them up then.

I almost went loony toons setting it up lol.

[Desertboy]

99% sure it will be that Joe. (Provided nothings lose or falling off machine which knowng you sure it won't be..lol)
Happens 50% of the time with these controller/drive combo and it's something I check for has matter routine. Can happen on any controller really but with the IP-M or S happens randomly depending on how drives setup. Esp if not used tuning software to check Rising edge setting in drive.

Edit: For anyone else reading this that doesn't have Cslabs controller but as similair problem then the same can apply.
The test and fix is the same. Or if the the drives have option to change the leading edge setting use this. Both work same.

I had exactly the same problem and I have leadshine drivers this fixed it.

Thanks saved lots of head scratching.

Joe did it fix yours?

[JoeHarris]

Joe did it fix yours?

I'm not sure! Need to do some more testing. After devoting a massive amount of time to building my machine, I got it working and then just felt burnt out with it all and pretty much stopped all together. I have decided I am going to get back to it, finish the job and start actually using my machine!!

[m.marino]

I know the feeling. Best wishes. Yes, I still live and breath though it has been a good bit close a few times these last years. You deserve to enjoy the fruit of a huge amount of labor. So get to it and have fun making chips. Enjoy and good luck. Hopefully you will break fewer bits in the learning curve of feeds and Speeds.

[JoeHarris]

Deleted post

[Clive S]

I'm not sure! Need to do some more testing. After devoting a massive amount of time to building my machine, I got it working and then just felt burnt out with it all and pretty much stopped all together. I have decided I am going to get back to it, finish the job and start actually using my machine!!

Nice to see you back again Joe :encouragement:

[JoeHarris]

So starting up again, I got the spindle control from Mach set up last night. All seems to work OK, apart from the RPM readout on Mach reads 0 regardless of the spindle speed. Is that normal? The one setting I was not sure about was mach's "spindle pulley" settings. The IP-M manual was not much help on that front. Does anyone know what this should be set to for a 2.2KW chinese water-cooled spindle?


That's most likely to be alignment issue not sticky seals. To be honest I've fitted 100's ballscrews and never had sticky seal on the ballnut(presume you mean ballnut seal)

Now what can happen is often the spacers on the BK bearings are not long enough and the seal in BK bearing can rub on the screw.
This tends to happen mostly on cheap BK bearings. Also on cheap BK bearings, like what Chai Sells, the bearings are not always shimmed correctly or even in wrong way round so when tightening the nut they will bind.

Joe If BK's came from Fred at BST then you can tighten them fully and they won't bind. Fred BK bearings are light years better than Chai's.

Sadly I think I am going to have to strip down the machine and sort out the bearings as they are binding quite regularly and causing pretty major accuracy issues. You get what you pay for I guess, and I should have shimmed them before I assembled the machine - lesson learned!

[JoeHarris]

Thanks Clive, good to see you are still on the forum. Looks like Dean hasn't posed in a while...

[JoeHarris]

Thanks Micheal, a lot of work and no fruit so far, so this summer I hope to change that!!

[JoeHarris]

So starting up again, I got the spindle control from Mach set up last night. All seems to work OK, apart from the RPM readout on Mach reads 0 regardless of the spindle speed. Is that normal? The one setting I was not sure about was mach's "spindle pulley" settings. The IP-M manual was not much help on that front. Does anyone know what this should be set to for a 2.2KW chinese water-cooled spindle?

Sadly I think I am going to have to strip down the machine and sort out the bearings as they are binding quite regularly and causing pretty major accuracy issues. You get what you pay for I guess, and I should have shimmed them before I assembled the machine - lesson learned!

Strip down has commenced... feels good to be in it again!

and I have some mild steel tube on order to remake the undersized BK bearing spacers/shims.

14mm o/d with 1mm wall for the 16mm ballscrew bearings

and 18mm o/d with 1.5mm wall for the 20mm screws.

I guess mild steel is what the originals are made from?

The plan is to cut them from the tube slightly oversized and then neaten them up in my ancient lathe so they are nice and uniform in length all the way around. Does that sound reasonable to anyone who has done this before?!

[njhussey]

So starting up again, I got the spindle control from Mach set up last night. All seems to work OK, apart from the RPM readout on Mach reads 0 regardless of the spindle speed. Is that normal? The one setting I was not sure about was mach's "spindle pulley" settings. The IP-M manual was not much help on that front. Does anyone know what this should be set to for a 2.2KW chinese water-cooled spindle?


Hi Joe, good to see you back on your machine. Mine’s been working fine since I 95% finished it!! I’ll have a look at my spindle pulley settings tomorrow, I’ve been using it tonight for 4 hours cutting kits but didn’t see your posts (I don’t come on here much anymore, although I should!) in time. Neil [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JoeHarris]

Hi Joe, good to see you back on your machine. Mine’s been working fine since I 95% finished it!! I’ll have a look at my spindle pulley settings tomorrow, I’ve been using it tonight for 4 hours cutting kits but didn’t see your posts (I don’t come on here much anymore, although I should!) in time. Neil [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheers Neil! [emoji1008]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[njhussey]

No problems Joe.

I seem to remember doing something similar with my bearing spacers as I dropped one on the floor never to be seen again!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AndyUK]

Good to see you back at it Joe - hope you sort those spacers out without too much hassle :)

I'm still using this thread as an awesome source of information - I've got a couple of questions though:

Your electrical diagrams are awesome - can you point me towards the software you used?
Your cabinet looks pretty decently sized for the layout - could you share the dimensions? Would you go bigger/smaller if you did it again?


Thanks!
Andy

[JoeHarris]

Good to see you back at it Joe - hope you sort those spacers out without too much hassle :)

I'm still using this thread as an awesome source of information - I've got a couple of questions though:

Your electrical diagrams are awesome - can you point me towards the software you used?
Your cabinet looks pretty decently sized for the layout - could you share the dimensions? Would you go bigger/smaller if you did it again?


Thanks!
Andy

Hi Andy, I have an updated circuit diagram that I will upload as I had a few mistakes on the last one... take it with a pitch of salt though as I’m no expert!! I just used the cad software we use at work for the diagram, which is archicad. Not ideal but did the job ok!

The cabinet is a decent size, I got it second hand off eBay and it had a few bits in it and the rotary switch already installed. I’d defiantly go big if you have the space. I found mine to be about right. I’ll try and get some dims for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JoeHarris]

Good to see you back at it Joe - hope you sort those spacers out without too much hassle :)

I'm still using this thread as an awesome source of information - I've got a couple of questions though:

Your electrical diagrams are awesome - can you point me towards the software you used?
Your cabinet looks pretty decently sized for the layout - could you share the dimensions? Would you go bigger/smaller if you did it again?


Thanks!
Andy


Hi Andy, I have an updated circuit diagram that I will upload as I had a few mistakes on the last one... take it with a pitch of salt though as I’m no expert!! I just used the cad software we use at work for the diagram, which is archicad. Not ideal but did the job ok!

The cabinet is a decent size, I got it second hand off eBay and it had a few bits in it and the rotary switch already installed. I’d defiantly go big if you have the space. I found mine to be about right. I’ll try and get some dims for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Andy,

My cabinet is about 790 x 790 x 275 deep. As I said in previous posts, please take this circuit diagram as a guide as to how I have wired my machine - it is from research on here and other places and is not an expert guide and may not be best practice, correct or even safe!? It may also have mistakes in it. I found it useful looking at other peoples diagrams and that is why i'm uploading it, but please do your own and be sure in your own mind that everything is correct before you wire things up. I don't want to be blamed for that infamous magic smoke!!

Cheers

Joe
25675256762567725678256792568025681

[john swift]

after having a quick look at the wiring diagram
I would consider wiring two 24V fans in parallel instead of having the two 12V fans in series
25687
not sure about the long term reliability of running fans in series

John

[JoeHarris]

after having a quick look at the wiring diagram
I would consider wiring two 24V fans in parallel instead of having the two 12V fans in series
25687
not sure about the long term reliability of running fans in series

John

Fair comment John, I was just working with what I had already.

[Nickhofen]

Neat control box and design!

[AndyUK]

Hi Andy,

My cabinet is about 790 x 790 x 275 deep. As I said in previous posts, please take this circuit diagram as a guide as to how I have wired my machine - it is from research on here and other places and is not an expert guide and may not be best practice, correct or even safe!? It may also have mistakes in it. I found it useful looking at other peoples diagrams and that is why i'm uploading it, but please do your own and be sure in your own mind that everything is correct before you wire things up. I don't want to be blamed for that infamous magic smoke!!

Cheers

Joe


Thanks Joe, that's extremely helpful.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to place a sticker on the inside of my cabinet that ensures any faults or issues are referred back to you! Any magic smoke captured will be posted directly to you - refunds are expected :)

On a serious note though - you're very correct to point that out :) I'll be cross referencing every connection to the manual, and redrawing from scratch for a different breakout board and axis layout.

[AndyUK]

Hi Joe,

Currently puzzling over the implementation of the PNOZ X1.

My understanding of your diagram is, if the coil in the PNOZ has +24V (i.e. E-Stop not pushed), we get:

The coil contactor closed for the drive PSU
A +24V E Stop signal to the IP-M
A lit up E-Stop reset switch light (?!)
The 24V pilot light is off


With the E-Stop pressed, all the above reverse.

Am I reading that correctly? I would have expected the two lights to be the other way around.

Thanks,
Andy

[JonnyFive]

Hi Joe,

Great thread and videos, it's really helping me in the planning of my CNC design. I've been watching your videos on routing aluminium and am thinking this would be a good cost saving way for me to go. I have the same router as you (Dewalt DW621) but mine only has a 1/4" collet, you mentioned yours has a 1/2" collet in your video - did you get an adaptor or fit a new collet? I don't think I would trust a 1/4" shank bit to be strong enough routing aluminium.

Keep up the good work!

Cheers!

[JAZZCNC]

I don't think I would trust a 1/4" shank bit to be strong enough routing aluminium.



1/4" shank handles cutting aluminium no problem. I cut ali with 6mm tool all the time.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[JonnyFive]

Really? That's good to know. What sort of cutter do I need and what depth of cut can I expect?

Thanks for your help!

[JAZZCNC]

Really? That's good to know. What sort of cutter do I need and what depth of cut can I expect?

Thanks for your help!

Single flute cutter works well for aluminum if your new to cutting because gives better chip clearance. Regards Depth of cut and feeds etc then can't tell you because it's very machine and material dependant. What works for me probably won't work for you.
Lots of variables come into play and machine stiffness along with spindle power play big role so you'll need to use trial and error. Expect to snap a few cutters.

To practise don't use cheap Aluminium like 1050 sheet as it's more difficult to cut because it's sticky like chewing gum and not easy to cut without gumming up cutters unless know what doing.

[Nealieboyee]

Also avoid AlTin coated carbide cutters if you're cutting aluminium. Use uncoated carbide. I learned this the hard way...

[JonnyFive]

I’m talking about hand routing the side plates for my machine out of tooling plate which is why I was concerned over using 1/4” bits - seems a bit fragile for my heavy hands. In his video Joe says he used a 10mm bit in a 1/2” collect which sounded less likely to snap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nealieboyee]

Oh ok. Fair point. Put it this way. I'd rather use a cheap 6mm bit and have it snap when something happens, than trying to hold on to a router with a 10mm bit when it catches on something and doesn't snap. My vote is for the 6mm bit all day.

[Nealieboyee]

As for flute count, yes single flute would be best, but you can also go two or even three flutes. Three flutes have a thicker core so they'll be the sturdiest, but they will gum up the easiest. If you can strap an air line to the router and point it at the bit, then that will help immensely. Also with three flute you'll need to move quickly to keep your chip load the same. Too slow and you'll be rubbing, not cutting. Which leads to heat, which leads to gumming up.

Try stepping down in increments of 0.5mm at a time to start with.

[JonnyFive]

0.5mm was my plan - gonna take a while as the plates are 25mm thick!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nealieboyee]

Make sure your end mill has flutes long enough. I'm using 6mm bits and the flute length is only 15mm.

[JonnyFive]

Good point, 25mm is quite long for a small shank bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nealieboyee]

True. My uncoated carbide 6mm bit also has a 15mm flute but the whole shank is the same diameter so I just go deeper.

[JAZZCNC]

If cutting by hand then use 2 flute spiral upcut which you can get in long flute lengths. Wouldn't use 3 flute by hand as you can't control the speed accuratly enough.

My preferred choice for Ali is 8mm 3 flute serrated edge roughing cutter followed with 2 flute with full depth finish pass.
Serrated edge rougher would be good choice for hand routing.

[JonnyFive]

Thanks for the help all, will follow your tips when the time comes.

Cheers [emoji482]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JoeHarris]

Hi Guys. It has been a long old while since I have been on here. I hope you are all keeping well. For one reason or another my CNC build has taken a back seat for a few years but I am hoping to get back to it...

[AndyUK]

Welcome back Joe :)

[Clive S]

Hi Guys. It has been a long old while since I have been on here. I hope you are all keeping well. For one reason or another my CNC build has taken a back seat for a few years but I am hoping to get back to it...

Welcome back Joe :thumsup:

[Nickhofen]

Welcome back,stay safe!

[JAZZCNC]

Yo Joe nice to have you back..:thumsup:

[mekanik]

Nice to have you back Joe, stay safe M8

[JoeHarris]

Hello! Nice to see so many of you are still on here! Hope you’re all alright.

[JAZZCNC]

Hello! Nice to see so many of you are still on here! Hope you’re all alright.

I'm ready to explode with frustration trying to deal with banks and I would like to strap them one by one to the bed of the 10x 5 router I'm building and peck drill tiny holes into there heads so they can feel how my head does and while at it just to make me feel better give them a good stretching...Lol . . . . But other than that I'm surviving Joe, hope you and yours are ok.

Hope that routers not gone rusty in the corner and you've been using it.?

[JoeHarris]

Sounds like your having frustrating time Dean! So my first voyage back into the world of CNC in probably 12 months has ended in frustration too. When I left this project every axis moved, but it had become became apparent that the ballscrew bearings needed shimming on x and z to stop them binding. Pretty annoying to have to start taking things apart... But I stripped them down, made some shims on the lathe and that is how it was left for ages. I guess I just ran out of enthusiasm.

Now, with a bit of time to look at it again and some projects I want to do with the machine I’m keen to get it to work finally... so...

I have now finished the job of putting everything back together. Switched her on and tried to zero the machine. Nothing moved. But on MACH the z was showing as moving!? as if it were moving towards the prox switch to zero out. So I put a screwdriver by the prox switch and immediately the y and x start to move and zero themselves. Tried jogging and y and x move fine, but z only moves on MACH not in reality!? What’s all that about!?

I think the reason I got fed up last time, is because - I really enjoyed all the practical stuff, the welding, the milling, the monotonous drilling and tapping, the wiring up of the control box - but once it came to the computer stuff, I was stumped. CAD I’m fine with, CAM was a bit of a struggle (I think Fusion 360 was maybe a bad place to start) and setting up Mach just baffled me. I struggled to get the machine set up right and struggled to get any code to run. I also never figured out how to get the spindle to be controlled by MACH.

Right now it feels like I have a couple of thousand pounds and couple of thousand hours worth of white elephant sitting in the garage. Argh!

[AndyUK]

Hi Joe - don't lose faith, you're so close.

The axis can appear to move on the computer but not in reality because it's not a closed loop - the commands are sent from Mach, but it just has to trust that they happened. The problem will be somewhre from the CS Labs controller down to the motor (narrowed down real far, eh?) I'd swap over some components between axis to see what works and what doesn't - e.g. connect Z motor to Y drive.

Regards software - I consider myself quite savvvy. I've programmed my own basic version of Mach3 in the past, I write code on a daily basis, and have a job which is technology based. But to hell if I can work Fusion 360. I'm a solidworks guy, and that makes sense, but fusion is just another way of thinking.

My advice, from someone who has just got their machine (which is mostly based on yours) working is forget fusion for now. Try something simpler and more user friendly like Aspire - it's a lot more intuitive. Less capable, sure, but plenty enough to start with. Baby steps. One day I'll tackle fusion again....

Oh.. and that machine you've built? It's bloody fantastic if my carbon copy is anything to go by.

[JAZZCNC]

Joe, it's probably the Z-axis drive that's not switched on, does it light up.? If not check the fuses if you have them. If the machines not been stored in damp conditions then I can't imagine the drives gone faulty.

Like Andy says don't let it get you down and if you still have my number give me a ring, I'll help you get Mach3 setup if it's still giving you headache. If not then drop me a PM and I'll send it.

You have built a cracking little machine with all the correct gear and it just needs the odd tweak which is quite normal. When it's fettled and you have nailed the cam side down a little better it will put BIG smiles on your face..! . . . . Like Andy says dump fusion 360 if it's giving you grief, I use SW and I'm a bit of whiz with it but fusion even gives me brain ache at times so it's not surprising folks struggle.

However, I must clarify and be fair to fusion 360 and say my son who as virtually zero experience with CAD or CAM managed to use it and generate code for a fairly complex part with adaptive paths and multiple tools without too much trouble. (Thou I didn't let him loose on my machine until I'd checked it... Lol) So I suppose it can't be that hard but we all learn technology differently and he's young at 24 so maybe picks this shit up quicker than us old farts...Lol

Anyway, get in touch and I'll soon have slinging chips.

[Kitwn]

I've tried to gey my head round Fusion360 a few times but it just doesn't seem to work for me either. I've used CamBam since the first day I switched on my original MDF and allthread machine and am still very happy with it, especially with the huge range of useful add-ons available from the very active support community. You have to pay for it but it's a one-off payment that gets you a lifetime of updates.

[JoeHarris]

The axis can appear to move on the computer but not in reality because it's not a closed loop - the commands are sent from Mach, but it just has to trust that they happened. The problem will be somewhre from the CS Labs controller down to the motor (narrowed down real far, eh?) I'd swap over some components between axis to see what works and what doesn't - e.g. connect Z motor to Y drive

Thanks Andy, that makes sense, I will try swapping things around and see if I can figure out where the fault is... and take your point on 360, although I think I could work it out eventually, it’s just getting it and MACH set up with the machine that I can’t figure out. Aspire looks great but it was the £1500 price tag that put me off! If the machine worked and made some money then maybe I could justify it one day!!


Joe, it's probably the Z-axis drive that's not switched on, does it light up.? If not check the fuses if you have them. If the machines not been stored in damp conditions then I can't imagine the drives gone faulty.

Like Andy says don't let it get you down and if you still have my number give me a ring, I'll help you get Mach3 setup if it's still giving you headache.

Unfortunately I don’t think it is that simple. At first I thought it was just because I had isolated the drive while I was working on it previously, but it’s not that. The drive turns on and is delivering power to the motor on z as you can hear it and it resists you pulling on the belt (I can move the axis manually by pulling on the belt when it’s off). It is pretty dry in the garage and it has been sealed up in the cabinet since it was last on...

To be honest, Dean, I would really appreciate a bit of your time to get it set up properly. I feel like I’m going to struggle to ever get it up and running without some expert input! I’ll drop you a DM if that’s alright.

The encouragement from both of you is much appreciated!

[AndyUK]

Aspire looks great but it was the £1500 price tag that put me off! If the machine worked and made some money then maybe I could justify it one day!!

The Vectric products come in teirs so its not quite that bad! Take a look at VCarve Desktop, which has pretty much all the 2D, 2.5D and 3D machining you'll need before wanting to move to fusion for the more complex stuff. Only minor draw back is the 600x600mm limit on projects. £275. Free trial available and lots of videos on youtube for examples.

https://www.vectric.com/products/vcarve-desktop

I haven't looked at CamBam yet though as a disclaimer, so couldn't compare the two.


Looks like Dean will sort it out pretty fast - but for what its worth if the drive is powered and the motors okay, the next check for me would be the wiring between CSLabs and Z drive. Maybe plug the Z drive signals into the Y drive and vice versa. The problem will either follow the Z driver, the Z wiring, or the Z output on the CSLabs controller.

[Clive S]

Joe. I am not going to muddy the waters as I am not familiar with the CS-labs stuff and Dean will sort it with you. Just keep the pecker up.

[JoeHarris]

The Vectric products come in teirs so its not quite that bad! Take a look at VCarve Desktop, which has pretty much all the 2D, 2.5D and 3D machining you'll need before wanting to move to fusion for the more complex stuff. Only minor draw back is the 600x600mm limit on projects. £275. Free trial available and lots of videos on youtube for examples.

https://www.vectric.com/products/vcarve-desktop

I haven't looked at CamBam yet though as a disclaimer, so couldn't compare the two.

Thanks Andy, I did have a look at V-carve last night and your right it does look good. Will have a look at Cam bam too once I'm up and running.



the next check for me would be the wiring between CSLabs and Z drive. Maybe plug the Z drive signals into the Y drive and vice versa. The problem will either follow the Z driver, the Z wiring, or the Z output on the CSLabs controller.

OK, the thing I cant understand is that it was all working fine last time I had it switch on and I don't think I've messed with the wiring since. The only thing I can think of is that I tried to (unsuccessfully) wire in the spindle control. But can't see how that would be connected.

[JoeHarris]

Joe. I am not going to muddy the waters as I am not familiar with the CS-labs stuff and Dean will sort it with you. Just keep the pecker up.

Cheers Clive, I'm counting on it! I would not have got this far without you two!

[JonnyFive]

I’ve found Fusion 360 to be a real pain in the ass to learn, I’m a ProE / Creo veteran of 20 years and Fusion baffled me at the start. I’ve watched loads of tutorials on YouTube and it’s starting to make sense - it’s a very different way of thinking than how my brain has been programmed to use CAD. That said, it is a very powerful piece of kit which is perhaps what puts people off if they only want to make simple things. Stick with it mate, it’ll be well worth it!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Neale]

I’ve found Fusion 360 to be a real pain in the ass to learn, I’m a ProE / Creo veteran of 20 years and Fusion baffled me at the start. I’ve watched loads of tutorials on YouTube and it’s starting to make sense - it’s a very different way of thinking than how my brain has been programmed to use CAD.

Absolutely right - I've run a few "intro to F360" sessions for fellow club members and I reckon the ones that have the biggest problems are the ones who come to it with a "I've done lots of 2D draughting and 2D CAD" approach. They have to go through an unlearn cycle before they can pick up the new ideas! Building a 3D model is not the same as creating 2D engineering drawings, and especially not if you want to get the best out of it.

As for things going wrong when you're not looking - between my last run of my router and the next "switch on from cold" session (no more than overnight) my machine managed to break a limit switch wire inside a junction box; as there were two switches in series, this seems to have also caused one of those switches to self-destruct. Symptoms were axis moving slowly in wrong direction when homing, which was really weird to see. I no longer believe that a machine won't develop a fault if you only turn your back on it for a little while even while it's switched off!

[JonnyFive]

It’s like Schrödinger's CNC machine [emoji1787]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

I've tried to gey my head round Fusion360 a few times but it just doesn't seem to work for me either. I've used CamBam since the first day I switched on my original MDF and allthread machine and am still very happy with it, especially with the huge range of useful add-ons available from the very active support community. You have to pay for it but it's a one-off payment that gets you a lifetime of updates.

CamBam is another I didn't get on with and I found it limited in what it could do, but that was a long time ago, I'm sure it's come on since.


The problem will either follow the Z driver, the Z wiring, or the Z output on the CSLabs controller.

Most likely a bad wire if it's in this area, I'd be amazed if it's the Cslabs output as they are generally bulletproof.


To be honest, Dean, I would really appreciate a bit of your time to get it set up properly. I feel like I’m going to struggle to ever get it up and running without some expert input! I’ll drop you a DM if that’s alright.


No problem, we will get you going in no time Joe. It will be something silly, usually is.!

Joe just try this for me because I've had this happen before just on Z axis where it won't Jog but it will move with a command... So Do an MDI move.

Make sure got enough room for Z to move Then Zero it out on the DRO and type G1 Z -10 (note the Minus) F500 into the MDI command bar and see if it moves.

Let me know how get on.

[Kitwn]

CamBam is another I didn't get on with and I found it limited in what it could do, but that was a long time ago, I'm sure it's come on since.



It is limited compared to F360 for example but that also makes it relatively uncomplicated. Adding some of the many plug-ins available extends what it can do. V-Carve is one example that sign-writers will like and text that follows an arc is another I've used to good effect.

It lacks the advanced adaptive clearing of F360 but works well enough for cutting wood.

[JoeHarris]

Thanks to Dean, the problem seems to be sorted - it was a software issue and required a reinstall of MACH3... but as of this evening I think I have a working machine. I have just cut a square that is square and a circle that is circular for the first time. It has only taken Lockdown to push me into getting it done! The calibration and squaring process is a bit of a pain but less painful than I thought it was going to be. Only slight hiccup was accidentally plunging a centre finder into the bed. Scary and funny in equal measure, how casually the z axis just kept pushing it into the MDF. Machines really don’t know or care. Reminded me of the bit at the beginning of the MACH3 manual:

“a computer is quite prepared to rotate an 8" unbalanced cast iron four-jaw chuck at 3000 rpm, to plunge a panel-fielding router cutter deep into a piece of oak, or to mill away the clamps holding your work to the table.”

Hopefully I can start using this mighty tool now, with no more nasty surprises! Thanks everyone for the help, it’s only taken the best part of a decade!!

[JoeHarris]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200504/03549dd204364c2937cf46162061dd38.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clive S]

At last Joe. Now get it dirty :eagerness:

[JAZZCNC]

Only slight hiccup was accidentally plunging a center finder into the bed. Scary and funny in equal measure, how casually the z-axis just kept pushing it into the MDF. Machines really don’t know or care.

My first experience of the power of CNC and stepper motors was watching my Z-axis a quite happily plunge a 1" square of aluminum and the pen which was inserted in the end of it thru 2 x 18mm MDF boards making a perfectly formed square just as if I'd used my mortising machine.!! . . . I'll never forget the look on my son's face when we looked at each other with eyes wide open...:smiley_simmons:


Now get it working and the first thing to do is the Aztec calendar it's a perfect test of the machine. Then next thing is to make something nice for the Mrs and surprise her, get her on side and you've cracked it, she'll never hassle you again...:hysterical:

[JoeHarris]

Now get it working and the first thing to do is the Aztec calendar it's a perfect test of the machine.

Thanks Dean and thanks Clive! Can you email me the Aztec model? I’d love to give it a go once I’ve skimmed off the bed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JoeHarris]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200508/b551cfad61fc51fdd7212895e41d1470.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200508/765b875655f2b3547b6915c75708e535.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200508/23619a30d3863a86a0d6ac5438b11970.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200508/1c998e0f6d20a4eda32d670bc0ab91bd.jpg

[Clive S]

Nice Joe. Did you skim the bed first. MDF is not the best HDF would be better

[JoeHarris]

Nice Joe. Did you skim the bed first. MDF is not the best HDF would be better

Yes skimmed the bed. At that scale with my cheap Chinese cutter I’m pretty happy with how it turned out in mdf. I’ll try it with hdf or ali...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

Sorry, Joe, it slipped my mind but I see you got it. Try cutting it in something harder like Acrylic, HDPE or Ali it will come out a lot nice than on that nasty MDF at this size. MDF is ok when it's larger but not when it gets small as it can't hold the detail.

[JoeHarris]

Sorry, Joe, it slipped my mind but I see you got it. Try cutting it in something harder like Acrylic, HDPE or Ali it will come out a lot nice than on that nasty MDF at this size. MDF is ok when it's larger but not when it gets small as it can't hold the detail.

No worries. Clive sorted me out! Nasty mdf was all I had!! Looks better with a bit of oil... https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200508/ce1f769f0ab41c9f44edb8bf80fbc36e.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andrewg]

Well done - if only more Build logs had a payoff like this. Congratulations on a successful build, and thanks for sharing so much here and on Youtube. Your reflections on the journey and lessons learned will be of great interest. Best wishes
Andrew

[Clive S]

No worries. Clive sorted me out! Nasty mdf was all I had!! Looks better with a bit of oil... https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200508/ce1f769f0ab41c9f44edb8bf80fbc36e.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well the test has been passed you are a member of the Aztec Club

[JAZZCNC]

Well done - if only more Build logs had a payoff like this. Congratulations on a successful build, and thanks for sharing so much here and on Youtube. Your reflections on the journey and lessons learned will be of great interest. Best wishes
Andrew

Andrew, they do it's just it doesn't always get shown. One of the reasons you don't see so many machines builds finished isn't because they don't get finished, well should say used because they kind of don't get finished. Often it's because soon as they get to the point the machine moves they start using it to make things and that's the last time they do anything to the machine until it breaks or gives trouble.

[Kitwn]

That looks brilliant Joe, I should try one myself. How long did it take to cut?

[JoeHarris]

That looks brilliant Joe, I should try one myself. How long did it take to cut?

Thanks! About an hour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

That looks brilliant Joe, I should try one myself. How long did it take to cut?

If your machine hasn't passed the Aztec test then it's not a real machine yet....:joker:

[Neale]

Often it's because soon as they get to the point the machine moves they start using it to make things and that's the last time they do anything to the machine until it breaks or gives trouble.

Ain't that the truth!

...and my own "build log" (well, more a case of what I learnt during the build...) does finish with a couple of examples of work done, although no Aztec plate yet :smile:

[phill05]

If your machine hasn't passed the Aztec test then it's not a real machine yet....:joker:


So how about starting a new thread showing what can be made on our machines

[Neale]

So how about starting a new thread showing what can be made on our machines

Try this one (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13385-Show-and-Tell-let-us-know-what-you-re-doing%21).

It's not easy to find things like this when the last post to it is more than a week or two back - they just get lost in the noise!

In fact, it's about as easy as finding the "Official Mycncuk router design" :smile:

(Actually, that one is slightly easier - it's just to the left of the end of the rainbow...)

[Kitwn]

If your machine hasn't passed the Aztec test then it's not a real machine yet....:joker:

Now there's a challenge! I don't have Vectric V-carve for which there is a ready-made file available and I've sen a DXF available. Any advice on the best available version or way to cut this? CamBam has a V-carve plug-in but it's not quite up to this job according to it's forum.

[phill05]

Try this one (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13385-Show-and-Tell-let-us-know-what-you-re-doing%21).

It's not easy to find things like this when the last post to it is more than a week or two back - they just get lost in the noise!

In fact, it's about as easy as finding the "Official Mycncuk router design" :smile:

(Actually, that one is slightly easier - it's just to the left of the end of the rainbow...)

Thanks missed it 1st time round.

Phill

[JAZZCNC]

Now there's a challenge! I don't have Vectric V-carve for which there is a ready-made file available and I've sen a DXF available. Any advice on the best available version or way to cut this? CamBam has a V-carve plug-in but it's not quite up to this job according to it's forum.

What size do you want Kit.? I'll knock you some code up.
Is it LinuxCNC you use.?

[Kitwn]

Dean,
That would be very kind of you! About 400mm diameter would be good and I do use LinuxCNC. At that size I suspect a 60 degree cuter would produce a good result without going too deep but use 90 if you think otherwise, I have both.

I've spent some time over the last few hours trying to get CamBam to play ball with the calendar, having downloaded a DXF image. There is a free V-Engrave plug-in for it produced by one of the very active group of supporters. This does an excellent job most of the time but has thrown in the towel (as have I!) on the extremely complex shapes in the calendar . For any other CB users who are interested, the plug-in works extremely well on engraving text but it is sometimes necessary to work out which objects have to be selected and converted to a 'region' within the software. The V-Engrave plug-in along with many other excellent additions is available from...

http://www.atelier-des-fougeres.fr/Cambam/Aide/Plugins/Vengrave.html

This is a french website but it does speak English!

[CNCRY]

Good to see your machine cutting something like that Joe - looks like you got over the final hurdles! I'm especially saying that as my machine is going to be pretty similar to yours, well the top half of it anyway!

[JAZZCNC]

Dean,
That would be very kind of you! About 400mm diameter would be good and I do use LinuxCNC. At that size I suspect a 60 degree cuter would produce a good result without going too deep but use 90 if you think otherwise, I have both.

Ok here you go. 90Deg cuts about 6mm deep and 60deg 10mm. It's set in MM's and used Arc's post processor so shouldn't be too jerky. My advice to speed up the job is lower the velocity and turn up the acceleration because the moves are very short, it also bounces around all over the place so don't be surprised. Enjoy

Edit: X Y zero is bottom left corner of 400mm square.

[Kitwn]

That's brilliant, thank you very much! I'll get onto that tomorrow (It's 7:45pm in WA and I'm checking the forum on a night-shift tea break at the moment.) :moon:

[JoeHarris]

Hi all, I can confirm it is a lot of fun having a working machine!

Having enough bits of material to cut is now becoming the limiting factor!

I have been trying to master the use of a round over bit to create smooth curves, which has highlighted another issue which I have now ironed out - tramming the spindle. This video is very helpful for anyone trying to do this:

https://youtu.be/D6pfIoyhgTc

I am still getting the odd problem however:

> I have had occasional random stalls on the x axis. I have slowed the velocity in motor tuning to (I think and will check later) 3500mm/min from 5000 to see if that helps.

> I have had a couple of ePID errors on MACH3 after a tool change, which led me to this:

https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=32334.0

And this:

http://www.mycncuk.com/archive/index.php/t-10244.html

Which made me think I should look at changing my version of MACH3 to 062 as there seems to be issues when using a motion controller (mine is the ipm) with version 066 for some.

[JoeHarris]

This video is also useful for those trying to square up x and y. Simple and effective method if you have limited measuring equipment like me!


https://youtu.be/lU0iZKajpoo

[AndyUK]

Hi Joe,

About the stalling, have you tuned the motor current PIDs on the motor drivers? I have EM806 rather than AM882, but I think the process is essentially the same, connecting up the RJ11 port to the COM port on your PC and running the "protuner" software.

This will make the drives change how they apply current to your motors to match them better, and allows you to set the motor current more accurately than the dip switches. Improved the speed I could get from my machine quite a bit.

Andy

[Neale]

Can't remember if I had ePid errors on my Mach3/IPM setup, but I certainly did see issues when I was running .066. Biggest single issue that I can remember (from a couple of years back) was losing work coordinates and similar things during an M6 tool change. I have a set of macros that I use based on, basically, code I nicked from other sources and combined with the "official" CS-Labs M31 homing instruction (rather than using native Mach3 homing). One is a plain Z height setting off a touch plate, one sets Z height off the touch plate then goes off to measure tool height against a fixed plate set in the bed, and the third just uses the fixed touch plate (for occasions when you have machined away the reference surface, for example). These last two were virtually unusable on .066, and currently I'm running .028 which is much better. It did seem to get a bit confused when I added in my wireless MPG but at least I've found workarounds for those problems.

Can't remember if I tried .062 or just went right back to .028. My recollection is that most of the changes in these last couple of versions were more to do with lathes and (I think, possibly) rigid tapping - nothing that I needed for a router.

[JoeHarris]

Hi Joe,

About the stalling, have you tuned the motor current PIDs on the motor drivers? I have EM806 rather than AM882, but I think the process is essentially the same, connecting up the RJ11 port to the COM port on your PC and running the "protuner" software.

This will make the drives change how they apply current to your motors to match them better, and allows you to set the motor current more accurately than the dip switches. Improved the speed I could get from my machine quite a bit.

Andy

Thanks Andy,
I’ll have a read about how to do it, but sounds good if it will help with the stalls. Only seems to happen on x which is a big NEMA 34 turning two 2005’s via a belt. If I was buying screws now (rather than 6-7years ago) I’d up the pitch.

[JoeHarris]

Hi Neale, thanks - I’ll try downgrading to v 062 or earlier and see how it goes I think. It all seems a bit random, although the ePID errors seem to come after a tool change, which is consistent with the forum posts I linked to earlier. I wonder if this also helps to explain the error I mentioned a few posts back, where (generally) the Z axis, (although a couple of times the Y too) will not move, but the DROs keep moving on Mach3, as if it is. I thought I had solved this by reinstalling Mach3, but it has happened a couple of times again since.

This evening I was cutting a test for a hangboard (a climbing training tool I want to make) - I had cut some pockets and a profile fine, changed the tool from a 1/2” router bit to a roundover bit, all fine, next changed to a v bit for some engraving, again worked ok, finally I changed the tool to a drill for the last operation on the job. It spins up fine and moves X and Y but does not move Z at all. On Mach everything is as it should be; it looks from the DROs like Z is moving according to the G code - it completes what it thinks is the job and stops the spindle. I tried jogging; X and Y are fine but I have the same issue with Z. I try ‘ref all home’. Again, Z doesn’t move but the DRO just keeps on and on until I press stop. So I open up the electronics cabinet to take a look at the drives, and the Z drive’s red LED is flashing 5 times every 5 seconds. According to the Leadshine manual (http://www.leadshine.com/UploadFile/Down/AM882m.pdf) under “12. Protection Functions” on page 13, this indicates “Sensorless Stall Protection - The AM882 can detect the motor stall status using if motor shaft speed is above 300RPM. When the detection is active, RED LED will blink five times within each periodic time (5s).” But the motor shaft never even turned! It only ever moved on the DRO on Mach, not in reality. So it doesn’t seem to fit the error code on the drive?! When I turned the cabinet off and on again to reset the drives, Z was back up and running and would jog about fine. Seems to be a similar issue to the ePID error though, which I think is also to do with Mach asking the motors to spin too fast.

This forum thread (https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=29032.0) suggests going back to version 03.043.022 of Mach3 and not to use your old .XML file, which sounds a bit of pain TBO. It suggests the issue is connected to the CSLabs controller in relation to later versions of Mach3. Also mentions noise issues connected with usb keyboard which Jazz has mentioned before too. The CSLabs is-m manual also recommend using a PS2 keyboard (which I don’t have these days and I’m not sure the pc I’m using has the port for either!)

I’m going to try installing an earlier version of Mach on an old laptop I think, and try that... if it works I’ll set up the machine PC again with an older version of Mach and a new keyboard! Unless anyone has had a similar experience and can shed some more light..?

Those of you running an IP-M, what version of Mach are you using??

[Kitwn]

This video is also useful for those trying to square up x and y. Simple and effective method if you have limited measuring equipment like me!


https://youtu.be/lU0iZKajpoo

And me!

I think most people recommend you mark a square rather than a triangle and check if the diagonals are equal in length. I recently did this by using a 22.5 degree engraving bit to mark the corners with 1mm deep holes on the spoil board and then improvised a large pair of compasses (dividers?) by using a small pair clamped into one end of a piece of wood with a panel pin nailed through it at the other. I don't have a picture at present but can add one later if anybody's interested. I recon this will show up smaller errors than the CNCnutz method and is less prone to setup errors since you are comparing the similarity of two distances rather than trying to make absolute measurements of three.

Re the other CNCnutz video you referenced: It's a pity Peter trammed his spindle before having the chance to see my 'taut wires' thread a couple of weeks ago. His machine could use that method as the rails are above the base.

[Neale]

Just a thought - last operation before you saw that "no Z movement" issue was drilling. Is it possible that the gcode was trying to move Z too fast? Too high acceleration? On my own machine, I have X and Y driver (EM806) fault outputs wired to the safety relay/e-stop system although that is mainly because I use a dual-motor setup on X and a stalled motor will try to twist the gantry. Thinking about it, though, my Z still uses an ancient M752 from the mk1 machine so no stall protection. But I do detune Z compared with the other axes - are you trying to use similar acceleration/speed?

Just thinking out loud - all our machines are different! Not obvious why IP/M and Mach3 would trip stall protection, though. FWIW, I've been using a wireless keyboard for a couple of years which connects via a USB dongle. Never seen any obvious problems from that area and the built-in touchpad is really useful.

[JoeHarris]

Thanks Neale, interesting thought and yes I have z tuned the same as y, I think at 5000mm/min velocity and 500mm/s².

To do the pro tuning it looks like you need a serial port and a special cable which is a pain!

I have pretty well copied over my current Mach3 settings to version 022 on an old laptop. Bit laborious but I didn’t want to just use the xml as this was advised against in the Mach support forum. It seems CS Labs recommend version 022 as the most stable, so let’s see!

Also, I’ve just bored out a 20mm cable gland so I can get an rj45 through it - I want to get rid of the two-Ethernet-cables-with-a-connector setup I have at the moment as that can’t be helping (!) and run the Ethernet cable further away from the VFD. It goes out the top of the cabinet and over the top at the moment...

[AndyUK]

I'm with Neale, sounds like Z is trying to move too fast.

I've had to detune my Z quite substantially compared to the X and Y speeds, the rapid upwards Z motions at the start of my cuts caused it to stall. Wonder if its something about moving a heavy spindle directly against gravity - although you'd hope that was only a small factor. It runs approximately 40% of the rapids speeds of X and Y (after correcting for screw pitch differences) and about half the acceleration. Its a 1605 running on a 3.1nm Nema 23, velocity 2m/min, 200mm/s^2 accel. Probably conservative, but works for me. Not a problem in every day life though as the travel is so much smaller :)

Regards the special cable, it requires a slightly custom job. I used a RJ11 crimper and some CAT5 to knock up one - you only use three wires. If you want I'll lend you one.

[JoeHarris]

I'm with Neale, sounds like Z is trying to move too fast.

I've had to detune my Z quite substantially compared to the X and Y speeds, the rapid upwards Z motions at the start of my cuts caused it to stall. Wonder if its something about moving a heavy spindle directly against gravity - although you'd hope that was only a small factor. It runs approximately 40% of the rapids speeds of X and Y (after correcting for screw pitch differences) and about half the acceleration. Its a 1605 running on a 3.1nm Nema 23, velocity 2m/min, 200mm/s^2 accel. Probably conservative, but works for me. Not a problem in every day life though as the travel is so much smaller :)

Regards the special cable, it requires a slightly custom job. I used a RJ11 crimper and some CAT5 to knock up one - you only use three wires. If you want I'll lend you one.

Thanks Andy, yes I will try slowing the Z down a bit and see if that helps. Kind of you to offer a lend and an excuse to head down south sounds nice! but what about one of these: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32931330627.html probably costs less than the postage back and forth!

[Clive S]

Thanks Andy, yes I will try slowing the Z down a bit and see if that helps. Kind of you to offer a lend and an excuse to head down south sounds nice! but what about one of these: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32931330627.html probably costs less than the postage back and forth!

Yes that should do it.

Not sure if it will work with win10

I made a cable a few years ago that I keep in the control box. I think mine connects to a serial com port.

[AndyUK]

Looks like the sort, but some concerning reviews.

Half-way house in the meantime from the manual:

Auto configuration by SW4
Change SW4 two times in one second to identify the motor parameter after
power-up if it is the first time installation. Please note that the rotation
switch position must be 0 when using this function.

[JAZZCNC]

Thanks Andy, yes I will try slowing the Z down a bit and see if that helps. Kind of you to offer a lend and an excuse to head down south sounds nice! but what about one of these: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32931330627.html probably costs less than the postage back and forth!

Don't bother buying the cable Jo you won't need to play with PID settings etc. Just flick the Switch 2 times in quick succession, when you do it the motors will make a buzzing sound for a second then stop. If the motors are whistling at the moment they will probably stop or change the tone.

[JoeHarris]

Don't bother buying the cable Jo you won't need to play with PID settings etc. Just flick the Switch 2 times in quick succession, when you do it the motors will make a buzzing sound for a second then stop. If the motors are whistling at the moment they will probably stop or change the tone.

Thanks guys, pretty sure I did this when I first set them up.

I got the laptop set up - connected it to the ipm but it wouldn’t connect for some reason, then it crashed! Maybe I should persist with plan A!!

[JAZZCNC]

Thanks guys, pretty sure I did this when I first set them up.

I got the laptop set up - connected it to the ipm but it wouldn’t connect for some reason, then it crashed! Maybe I should persist with plan A!!

To be honest I thought you had done it because I seemed to remember going thru it with you before. The Software just does the same thing but it does allow you to tweak it, but you should only need to do this is your having resonance issues, etc. Which you are NOT. 99% of the time the Auto tune option works fine.

RE: Laptop did you set the Adapter IPV4 address to manual .? and set to 10. 1. 1. 1 and 255.255.255.0

[JoeHarris]

To be honest I thought you had done it because I seemed to remember going thru it with you before. The Software just does the same thing but it does allow you to tweak it, but you should only need to do this is your having resonance issues, etc. Which you are NOT. 99% of the time the Auto tune option works fine.

RE: Laptop did you set the Adapter IPV4 address to manual .? and set to 10. 1. 1. 1 and 255.255.255.0

You did! I’ll leave the protuning for now then.

Haha, no, totally forgot that important step! Cheers Dean. Its been a long while since I last went through the ip/m manual page by page. Looks like I need to get it out again...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JoeHarris]

Hi

Version 22 of Mach 3 is working way better! Here’s a video of my first proper little project. No issues [emoji106][emoji3] https://youtu.be/JBjDpcFo2nk

[Neale]

Good stuff - I was happy with .028 but I doubt that there's much difference. Only key feature is whether or not it works!

[JoeHarris]

Good stuff - I was happy with .028 but I doubt that there's much difference. Only key feature is whether or not it works!

Haha yes very true. I went with 22 as it seems to be what CS Labs recommends.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

Hi

Version 22 of Mach 3 is working way better! Here’s a video of my first proper little project. No issues [emoji106][emoji3] https://youtu.be/JBjDpcFo2nk

:toot::toot::toot: The boy's feeling it now...:toot::toot:

[JoeHarris]

:toot::toot::toot: The boy's feeling it now...:toot::toot:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200524/db75203f71701e542ea9224afb67b55c.jpg

[Wal]

That Hangboard's a cool little project. Very nice indeed.

Wal.

[JoeHarris]

I'm with Neale, sounds like Z is trying to move too fast.

I've had to detune my Z quite substantially compared to the X and Y speeds, the rapid upwards Z motions at the start of my cuts caused it to stall. Wonder if its something about moving a heavy spindle directly against gravity - although you'd hope that was only a small factor. It runs approximately 40% of the rapids speeds of X and Y (after correcting for screw pitch differences) and about half the acceleration. Its a 1605 running on a 3.1nm Nema 23, velocity 2m/min, 200mm/s^2 accel. Probably conservative, but works for me. Not a problem in every day life though as the travel is so much smaller :)

Regards the special cable, it requires a slightly custom job. I used a RJ11 crimper and some CAT5 to knock up one - you only use three wires. If you want I'll lend you one.

I have completed a few successful projects now, pocketing, profiling and v-carving, all without much of a hitch. But trying some 3D (2.5D) carving has resulted in my z axis behaving badly again! Part way though a roughing toolpath the z axis started moving a little erratically and then stalled a few times (I think). It moved up and started milling above the work piece. I pressed feedhold then stopped the machine, the spindle stopped but the z axis kept making jolting movements in an upward direction?! It only stopped it's mad movements when I hit the emergency stop. I am going to throttle back the motor tuning some more on Z to see if it relates to that, but it seems very odd to me that it would carry on moving after being told to stop. Has anyone else had a similar issue?

[JAZZCNC]

Don't know why it's doing this never seen it before but the reason it kept going after feed hold was because it was emptying the buffer.

Have you done a check to see if your missing steps from the pulse being on the wrong side of the edge.? If not then Zero the Z-axis and mark it's position then write some G-code so it moves back n forth several 100 times, only needs to be short moves. Make the last move go back to Zero.
If it doesn't return to the mark then you need to change the active Hi/Low in motor tuning for that Axis.

[JoeHarris]

Don't know why it's doing this never seen it before but the reason it kept going after feed hold was because it was emptying the buffer.

Have you done a check to see if your missing steps from the pulse being on the wrong side of the edge.? If not then Zero the Z-axis and mark it's position then write some G-code so it moves back n forth several 100 times, only needs to be short moves. Make the last move go back to Zero.
If it doesn't return to the mark then you need to change the active Hi/Low in motor tuning for that Axis.


Thanks Dean, no I don’t think I ever did that test on the Z axis but I did on the other two. I’ll give it a go and see, but really wanted to finish this job!

I reduced the Velocity on z from 2.5m/min to 2m/min and the acceleration from 250 to 200 and ran the roughing pass again a little slower than before and it cut to the end without any trouble (although it is hard to tell if it lost any steps as it is only a roughing toolpath). But once it was done and had gone back to zero for the tool change it kept making little erratic movements again. Could this still be to do with buffering if it is stopped for a tool change? I videoed it for a few seconds this time, if you have the sound on you can here it making little jerky moves. This was at the tool change so no g-code to tell it to move and nothing changing on the DRO. I don’t get it?

https://youtu.be/m1vlkqPeVMM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

No Joe that's definitely not the buffer...Lol

It looks very much like a noise issue.? But knowing your setup and the fact spindle isn't running I'd be surprised if it was.! . . . . Have you grounded the chassis.?

I'd be going over all the wire connections in the control box first looking for loose connections or stray wires. Also If you have any plug connections like DIN sockets on motor cables I'd check them out as well, in fact, chop them off and throw them in the bin as they are a pain in the arse.!!

[JoeHarris]

No Joe that's definitely not the buffer...Lol

It looks very much like a noise issue.? But knowing your setup and the fact spindle isn't running I'd be surprised if it was.! . . . . Have you grounded the chassis.?

I'd be going over all the wire connections in the control box first looking for loose connections or stray wires. Also If you have any plug connections like DIN sockets on motor cables I'd check them out as well, in fact, chop them off and throw them in the bin as they are a pain in the arse.!!

The motors are soldered to the cy cable and are wired directly to the drives - no connectors! And the cy shields are grounded at a star ground in the cabinet.

But... The frame is not grounded independently come to think of it, should I take a connection from the steel back to star ground? Is that what you mean by chassis?

I will go hunting for loose connections but pretty sure they are all good as I checked last time I had issues...

The last time (previous post) when I stopped the machine after noticing a problem, it carried on doing these movements after both feedhold and stop, it was only the estop cutting power to the motor that stopped it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

But... The frame is not grounded independently come to think of it, should I take a connection from the steel back to star ground? Is that what you mean by chassis?

Yes, run a wire from the Star point to the Frame and if you want to take the belt n braces approach then run another to the gantry just in case it's not earthing thru the bearings very well.

Do this before doing anything else. That way you'll see if your problems go away just from this.

[JoeHarris]

Well Jazz saves the day again! Amazingly a bit of wire stripped from some twin and earth I had laying around bolted into the frame and back to star ground seems to have done the trick! Ran the machine for 8.5hours continuously without any issues. Cheers Dean [emoji481]

[JoeHarris]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200619/fdbf7589ca13905d64c040135b00bfe8.jpg

Here’s what I was making - a topographical map of (part of) the Middle East cut from Ash. 1st 3D work I’ve tried with the machine.

Top left is Antalya in Turkey and the Taurus mountains, then clockwise Cyprus top middle, the Mediterranean coast of Syria and Lebanon, then Israel and Jordan, the Sinai peninsula, Red Sea and finally Suez, and the Nile opening out into the Mediterranean. Pretty pleased with how it turned out.

Took about 10.5 hours total to cut. Roughed with a 10mm straight cutter then finished with a 1mm radius tapered ballnose.

[mekanik]

Nice Job Joe
Great to see it in action.
Regards
Mike

[JAZZCNC]

Please to see your sorted Joe. :thumsup:

Nice job on the 3D work, Can't beat a 3D file to test the build quality and accuracy of a machine, certainly nothing wrong with your machine. :toot:

[JoeHarris]

Little video showing the machine cutting the map for anyone interested in seeing it!

https://youtu.be/xxuR7IvlSUg


https://youtu.be/xxuR7IvlSUg

[AndyUK]

Looking great! It's quite satisfying watching the work appear out of a block, isn't it?

How have you found using the tapered ballnose? I've only got standard ballnose currently, but the tapered look interesting and looks like you can get much longer shaft lengths which is something I've been struggling with.

Also love the Ash; finding a supplier of wood that isn't DIY/Building trade focus is something I'm also struggling with.

[JoeHarris]

Looking great! It's quite satisfying watching the work appear out of a block, isn't it?

How have you found using the tapered ballnose? I've only got standard ballnose currently, but the tapered look interesting and looks like you can get much longer shaft lengths which is something I've been struggling with.

Also love the Ash; finding a supplier of wood that isn't DIY/Building trade focus is something I'm also struggling with.

It sure is, hard to leave it alone! The tapered ballnose worked better than I expected. It was a ‘cheap’ Chinese one from SpeTool on Amazon so I wasn’t expecting great things, but couldn’t fault it really. For hardwood, have you tried local sawmills? A couple near me (within 40mins) have offcut sheds with some decent lumps available for quite reasonable prices