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Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 01:16 AM
Hi All Sorry ive not been around for so long work commitments hav had me by the throat!!!:thumbdown:, anyhow ive seen a couple of these chinese spindles in action and for the most part im impressed, so when i got the chance to see one in bits i jumped at it. This made me ask if it was possible to drill through the spindle itself to fit a drawbar, any thoughts?? the 3hp er20 one looks like it would be worth doing. they may even be hollow in the first place, i didnt get a close enough look...

blackburn mark
24-05-2012, 02:10 AM
Hi All Sorry ive not been around for so long work commitments hav had me by the throat!!!:thumbdown:, anyhow ive seen a couple of these chinese spindles in action and for the most part im impressed, so when i got the chance to see one in bits i jumped at it. This made me ask if it was possible to drill through the spindle itself to fit a drawbar, any thoughts?? the 3hp er20 one looks like it would be worth doing. they may even be hollow in the first place, i didnt get a close enough look...

some of the ER spindle shafts iv bought come with a through hole already present... its hit and miss though when you buy as iv had blind and through hole ER shafts from the same supplier :(
i guess its worth stipulating before i buy another.

Mad Professor
24-05-2012, 08:55 AM
Here is a link I found some time ago where someone took apart one of the 1.5KW Chinese Spindles: http://3d.kadatka.ru/articles/shpindel/index_eng.php

It would be really intresting if a drawbar could be fitted to the 2.2KW and up Spindles.

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 09:04 AM
This made me ask if it was possible to drill through the spindle itself to fit a drawbar, any thoughts?? the 3hp er20 one looks like it would be worth doing. they may even be hollow in the first place, i didnt get a close enough look...

I've got a dead 2.2KW spindle which I striped and the shafts not hollow but wouldn't imgine it being too difficult to bore.?

Thou not sure how you'd go about drawing the ER collet.? Don't think the ER design lends it's self well to ATC thats why you don't see many, if any.!!

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 11:18 AM
I've got a dead 2.2KW spindle which I striped and the shafts not hollow but wouldn't imgine it being too difficult to bore.?

Thou not sure how you'd go about drawing the ER collet.? Don't think the ER design lends it's self well to ATC thats why you don't see many, if any.!!

Jazz i so want an ATC it hurts it drives me nuts not having one, so if i can mod one of those spindles i will be a happy man... if it was a case of designing a draw mech for an ER collet im sure there will be someone up for the challenge im sure if it got stuffed in the lathe it could be made to work.....alternatively can i buy one like it (similar spec to chinese but with ATC..) anywhere

Edmo117
24-05-2012, 03:47 PM
Hi

For what it is worth I think that drilling a hole down the centre may be a very bad idea. Think about it, the Chinese are very good at making things down to a price so their design is not going to be conservative, that's for sure. Therefore, the diameter of the shaft will have been minimised in diameter and material specification to do the job and no more. Removing some of this material will weaken the structure I am sure.

If you want to do it anyway and can't drill or bore it because the material is hard, you can always get is spark eroded ....maybe.

Still think it is not a good idea though.....sorry

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 04:08 PM
Hi

For what it is worth I think that drilling a hole down the centre may be a very bad idea. Think about it, the Chinese are very good at making things down to a price so their design is not going to be conservative, that's for sure. Therefore, the diameter of the shaft will have been minimised in diameter and material specification to do the job and no more. Removing some of this material will weaken the structure I am sure.

If you want to do it anyway and can't drill or bore it because the material is hard, you can always get is spark eroded ....maybe.

Still think it is not a good idea though.....sorry

The picture below is of an ER11 water cooled spindle with a hollow center and looks as though it is meaty enough, so i would assume that an ER20 model would be larger, the problem is some come with hollow shafts and some dont, it seems you take pot luck. I have sent a few mails to see if i can stipulate hollow shaft ER20 collet. we will see how that pans out, but they are not as fragile as you may imagine as the pic shows.. unfortunatly ER11 is a little limiting for my project.. Spark erroding wow but then im not sure where i would get that done..


6044

Jonathan
24-05-2012, 07:43 PM
Some things to consider...

Drilling the hole all depends on how the shaft is hardened. If you're lucky only the surface will be hardened (like with ballscrews which are induction hardened), so you could drill it with a standard drill. However the spindle is what, 200mm long(?) which is a rather deep hole to drill in any material. It's important to maintain concentricity otherwise the spindle will no longer be balanced. If you need to keep the 24,000rpm limit you may well need to rebalance the spindle after drilling - it's possible to do dynamic balancing at home and not too expensive to set up, but that's a big project in itself especially just for one item although I guess you should additionally balance the toolholders.

Drilling the shaft will weaken it and also lower the critical speed - but no point commenting on if that's an issue until we know the dimensions. What diameter drawbar will be required for instance? Will need to know the required force to hold the toolholder/collet to work that out, so need to know what toolholders (custom or otherwise) you'll be making first.... there's a lot to work out. Ideally you want to use the existing ER20 taper for the toolholders/collets so need to machine something to fit that and attach to the drawbar - again easier said than done.

It's possible to do ATC without a drawbar:

http://hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_rapid_changer.html

...but with that design I suspect the inherent imbalance of the spring will severely limit the maximum rpm, unless the holders are very small.

Something else worth considering is making some sort of contraption to imitate a manual toolchange with a standard spindle. i.e. move the spindle to rack, nut unscrewed by motor (worm drive probably to get required torque - 30-70Nm depending on collet size) then have each tool in it's own collet and collet nut, so spindle is moved above and screwed into the holder. Easiest to motorise the rack with that high a torque, so it will require an automated spindle lock mechanism and a mechanism to align the collet nut to the holder/spannery things...simples! The nice thing about this method is it can be applied to any spindle and since you're not adding bits there's no balancing issues - just might be difficult to do reliably.

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 08:12 PM
Some things to consider...

Drilling the hole all depends on how the shaft is hardened. If you're lucky only the surface will be hardened (like with ballscrews which are induction hardened), so you could drill it with a standard drill. However the spindle is what, 200mm long(?) which is a rather deep hole to drill in any material. It's important to maintain concentricity otherwise the spindle will no longer be balanced. If you need to keep the 24,000rpm limit you may well need to rebalance the spindle after drilling - it's possible to do dynamic balancing at home and not too expensive to set up, but that's a big project in itself especially just for one item although I guess you should additionally balance the toolholders..

Ive mailed the supplier i use and she has told me that some do come with hollow shafts and that she will get back to me to let me know if it is an option to stipulate although she dosnt see a problem with it. so if all goes well thats that problem solved (fingers crossed)


What diameter drawbar will be required for instance? Will need to know the required force to hold the toolholder/collet to work that out, so need to know what toolholders (custom or otherwise) you'll be making first.... there's a lot to work out. Ideally you want to use the existing ER20 taper for the toolholders/collets so need to machine something to fit that and attach to the drawbar - again easier said than done..

She is looking into the hole size of the shaft so again we will see that will be when the drawbar size will be decided, and indeed the attachment fitting and type.



It's possible to do ATC without a drawbar:

http://hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_rapid_changer.html

...but with that design I suspect the inherent imbalance of the spring will severely limit the maximum rpm, unless the holders are very small. .

yes i remember seeing these i think 10,000rpm was the max..



Something else worth considering is making some sort of contraption to imitate a manual toolchange with a standard spindle. i.e. move the spindle to rack, nut unscrewed by motor (worm drive probably to get required torque - 30-70Nm depending on collet size) then have each tool in it's own collet and collet nut, so spindle is moved above and screwed into the holder. Easiest to motorise the rack with that high a torque, so it will require an automated spindle lock mechanism and a mechanism to align the collet nut to the holder/spannery things...simples! The nice thing about this method is it can be applied to any spindle and since you're not adding bits there's no balancing issues - just might be difficult to do reliably.

I had considered this approach as a last resort if it is less work than the spindle idea....

I may just buy an ATC spindle in the end if it looks like too much of a headache.. that is if i can find anyone who sells them for less than $2000 that is ....

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 08:12 PM
The shaft is very strong on the 2.2KW spindle and would easily bore without weakening too much. Obviously it will but to be honest these spindles don't produce enough torque to get anywhere near being able to snap a shaft of this diameter.

I don't think it would be too hard to design some way to draw the ER collet but it would have to be a single large collet permantly installed.
Then separate tool holders machined to actually hold the cutting tools. Similiar to the Tormach system.
Problem with this approach, with this spindle, is both the relatively small diameter of the largest ER20 collet @ 13mm and the fact they will need to be balanced to handle the high spindle speeds.
The tormach system works by using the largest R8 collet @20mm and the tool holders shank match's . . BUT . . the main difference and the area I think will be hardest to over come is the balancing. Also because of the relatively small 13mm shank the tool holders will also need to be machined from high quality steel and hardened appropriatly.

The tormach systems highest spindle speeds are I believe 10K Max. The jump to higher speeds I think is where all the hard work will be.? Getting it wrong will shake the machine and very quickly wear the spindle bearings away, not to mention the shite cutting it will do.

It's do-able but far from simple.!! . . . . If it was simple and done cheaply our Asian cousins would have surely done it by now don't you think .??

There are several ATC spindles out there but the all cost a few 1000's not 100's.!!

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 08:17 PM
It's possible to do ATC without a drawbar:

http://hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_rapid_changer.html

...but with that design I suspect the inherent imbalance of the spring will severely limit the maximum rpm, unless the holders are very small.



Yes I seem to remember they are 10K limited.?

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 08:31 PM
The shaft is very strong on the 2.2KW spindle and would easily bore without weakening too much. Obviously it will but to be honest these spindles don't produce enough torque to get anywhere near being able to snap a shaft of this diameter.

I don't think it would be too hard to design some way to draw the ER collet but it would have to be a single large collet permantly installed.
Then separate tool holders machined to actually hold the cutting tools. Similiar to the Tormach system.

I think i can do the tool holders without to much trouble i made some for my easy change on my Boxford260.


Problem with this approach, with this spindle, is both the relatively small diameter of the largest ER20 collet @ 13mm and the fact they will need to be balanced to handle the high spindle speeds..

ahh yes my 260 only managed 3500rpm


The tormach system works by using the largest R8 collet @20mm and the tool holders shank match's . . BUT . . the main difference and the area I think will be hardest to over come is the balancing. Also because of the relatively small 13mm shank the tool holders will also need to be machined from high quality steel and hardened appropriatly.

Dooable i think..


The tormach systems highest spindle speeds are I believe 10K Max. The jump to higher speeds I think is where all the hard work will be.? Getting it wrong will shake the machine and very quickly wear the spindle bearings away, not to mention the shite cutting it will do.

I did read the 10k speeds of this sytem was due to the spring and holding pressure, but i could be mistaken.


It's do-able but far from simple.!! . . . . If it was simple and done cheaply our Asian cousins would have surely done it by now don't you think .??

I think they have....
6045
6046

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 08:37 PM
I think they have....
6045
6046

Yes I know they make them but don't think they will be cheap and that was my point.!! They will be 2K plus I think.?

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 08:42 PM
yup they sure are expensive, but maybe its a demand thing?? maybe...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATC-auto-tool-change-CNC-MOTOR-ATC-SPINDLE-CNC-MILLING-MACHINE-/160808439373?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item2570ee0e4d

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 08:45 PM
yup they sure are expensive, but maybe its a demand thing?? maybe...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATC-auto-tool-change-CNC-MOTOR-ATC-SPINDLE-CNC-MILLING-MACHINE-/160808439373?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item2570ee0e4d

I've got a sneaky feeling that could be Kellingcnc in states.??

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 09:00 PM
What size machine is this going on.?

I have thought for a long time that the BT30 spindle Cartridge that tormach sell as an accessory could easily be made into good ATC.? Again not overly cheap but doo-able.!! Though needs a large strong machine.!

I'm going to enquire with a company I deal with who make,repair, high quality spindles. The stupidly expensive multi KW spindles with ceramic bearings alone costing 1000's but I did wounce mention could they make a cheap ATC cartridge and they said possibly and draw something up and they'd have a look.? . . Never did maybe when I have more time i'll look into it more.?

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 09:06 PM
6'x3' steel frame, as an alternative i could use a chinese spindle geared down 2:1 or similar to drive a spindle cartridge.........

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 09:16 PM
Yourself and others have been helping me decide on its design for a couple of years now lol

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 09:19 PM
6'x3' steel frame, as an alternative i could use a chinese spindle geared down 2:1 or similar to drive a spindle cartridge.........

I wouldn't because the price of a 3HP 3 phase motor is so much cheaper and give far more torque done to very low RPM. You could gear it up if you need high RPM.
There are loads of 3PH motors in scrap yards and not silly money new.
To be honest I very rarely need over 10-12K but often would like the abilty to go lower than 5K which the WC 2.2KW just can't do and still be usable.!! Honestly these spindles don't have high torque even with a torque vector drive.!

Ricardoco
24-05-2012, 09:31 PM
its more a size thing for me the chinese motors themselves are quite compact but if there are alternatives then i would be happy to look at them...

JAZZCNC
24-05-2012, 10:05 PM
its more a size thing for me the chinese motors themselves are quite compact but if there are alternatives then i would be happy to look at them...

Ye thats why I asked about size because unless large or designed for at the outset then could be hard to impliment or so limiting it's not worth the trouble.

Ricardoco
25-05-2012, 03:52 PM
Ok well maybe im going down the wrong track, maybe i should have just asked if there was a suitable spindle that suited an atc conversion was not massive in size had a speed of > 6000 rpm but would be happy at 1000 rpm should the need arrise (lower speed not essential because not against using pulleys) but had a good amount of torque

JAZZCNC
25-05-2012, 04:35 PM
Ok well maybe im going down the wrong track, maybe i should have just asked if there was a suitable spindle that suited an atc conversion was not massive in size had a speed of > 6000 rpm but would be happy at 1000 rpm should the need arrise (lower speed not essential because not against using pulleys) but had a good amount of torque

Well not so much a wrong track has a potentialy expensive one with high percentage for disapointment unless well thought out.??

Like I say if it was relatively easy and CHEAP they would be available by now has there have been plenty of people asking about ATC over the years since affordable WC spindles arrived on the scene.!!

I'm sure it will happen sooner or later thou.??????????????

Ricardoco
25-05-2012, 04:43 PM
So what do you suggets then or should i throw it out there in a new thread...

JAZZCNC
25-05-2012, 04:59 PM
So what do you suggets then or should i throw it out there in a new thread...

Sorry hope you don't think I'm being negative or argumentative I'm really not just trying to be realistic.!!
I can't suggest anything more than I have already. If I had a cheap answer I'd be shouting about it.!!

All I know what your after with compact high torque and high rpm and a decent ATC setup hisn't cheap to buy or would imagine to DIY cheaply.

Ricardoco
25-05-2012, 05:11 PM
Money isnt really a problem to be fair, i just want the best value with what i spend, and if that means submitting designs to engineering companies to have the things custom made then so be it, on the other hand im not sure i want to spend 2000 when i cant help thinking there must be a cheaper way..... after all this forum is full of people with mills and routers isnt it

JAZZCNC
25-05-2012, 05:36 PM
Money isnt really a problem to be fair, i just want the best value with what i spend, and if that means submitting designs to engineering companies to have the things custom made then so be it, on the other hand im not sure i want to spend 2000 when i cant help thinking there must be a cheaper way..... after all this forum is full of people with mills and routers isnt it

Yes I get what your saying and this is my point.! To do it correctly and be worth the trouble it won't be any cheaper I don't think. Custom made anything cost's money.!!

This is my take on it.!! . .The chinese WC spindles in there current format are not really suitable to ATC for both the spindle taper type and the fact they are high speed low torque motors.
To design one based on the current WC spindle will require much trial and error and at 180 pop and quality angular contact bearings etc you don't need to get it wrong many times to start building up the costs.! . . . . If you did manage it then IMO you would still have a less than ideal ATC setup.!

If moneys no object then go for it and I know I'll be watching with great interest.!

If you want an idea of the work involved in building a proper ATC spindle then checkout Henriks thread on cnczone and he still wasn't 100% happy with it when finished because it had 0.01-0.02mm runout.!! . . . He's bit of a perfectionist thou.!
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical_mill_lathe_project_log/41200-bt30_spindle_project-13.html

i2i
26-05-2012, 10:17 AM
Ok well maybe im going down the wrong track, maybe i should have just asked if there was a suitable spindle that suited an atc conversion was not massive in size had a speed of > 6000 rpm but would be happy at 1000 rpm should the need arrise (lower speed not essential because not against using pulleys) but had a good amount of torquehttp://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/540553447-EN027-Spindle-with-synchronous-belt-for-CNC-milling-BT30-ATC-steel-ball-clamp-disc-spring-drawbar-wholesalers.html

Use your own motor to suit,

i2i
26-05-2012, 10:23 AM
or

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/540550630-EN026-Spindle-with-synchronous-belt-for-CNC-milling-BT30-ATC-petal-clamp-disc-spring-drawbar-wholesalers.html

I have one of these planned to replace an old bridgeport styled milling head.

JAZZCNC
26-05-2012, 11:18 AM
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/540553447-EN027-Spindle-with-synchronous-belt-for-CNC-milling-BT30-ATC-steel-ball-clamp-disc-spring-drawbar-wholesalers.html

Use your own motor to suit,

Thats what I meant with using the Tormach cartridge but this would be perfect, just add air cyclinder and your ready to go. Good shout i2i. .:applause:

Now who can I tapup for $900.??? .

i2i
26-05-2012, 11:24 AM
there is also a model with a cam to operate the atc fitted to the top of the spindle which will allow a direct drive motor, i'll see if i can find the link.

JAZZCNC
26-05-2012, 12:06 PM
Can anybody read chinese.? I would really like to know what this says and motor spec.
http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/908764/211450621-536817827/SE001-yz-blsd2408-AC-Servo-driver-AC-Servo-motor-for-CNC-machine-200W-400W.html

I think I'm reading it for the 400W motor has.
60V
8.4A
1.27Nm continous
3.82 peak
3000rpm

At 170 for motor and drive this is cheap and not worth messing with steppers. Don't think it includes encoder like but still I'm sure they will be on there some where cheap enough.?

Edit: Maybe it does include encoders becasue I'm sure the bit say 2500(chinese squigle) means 2500ppr the squigle bit I hope means x 4 for quadriture so 10,000PPR encoders.?

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 01:07 PM
Thats what I meant with using the Tormach cartridge but this would be perfect, just add air cyclinder and your ready to go. Good shout i2i. .:applause:

Now who can I tapup for $900.??? .

Er, don't see what all the fuss is about - it's only rated for 6000rpm. Unless some of the others in that table are also ATC spindles...
It looks like BT30 taper tooling is capable of much more than 6000rpm, so it makes you wonder why that spindle can't do it - is it just not balanced very well, or cheap bearings? That would explain the price.



Can anybody read chinese.?

I know some people who can - I can ask them on Monday if you like.

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 01:12 PM
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/540553447-EN027-Spindle-with-synchronous-belt-for-CNC-milling-BT30-ATC-steel-ball-clamp-disc-spring-drawbar-wholesalers.html

Use your own motor to suit,

i2i to the rescue.... now we're cooking on gas, this looks like what im gonna go with, all the work is done for me Hmmmmmm

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 01:15 PM
there is also a model with a cam to operate the atc fitted to the top of the spindle which will allow a direct drive motor, i'll see if i can find the link.
again that sounds like just the job

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 01:18 PM
i2i to the rescue.... now we're cooking on gas, this looks like what im gonna go with, all the work is done for me Hmmmmmm

I thought you wanted higher speed than that?

To get '>6000rpm and 1000rpm should the need arise' is challenging. The vast majority of spindles use induction motors and to get the variable speed we use a VFD. The problem with this is you can only get full power down to about half the motor's rated rpm, then below that it drops linearly. So in short either you use a massively overrated motor, or have belts so you can change the drive ratio and keep the motor operating in the rated power region. On my micro lathe I went for the former, which would have been expensive except I had already got the motor.

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 01:43 PM
again that sounds like just the job

OMG 650 Delivered!!!!! thats music to my ears...

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 01:51 PM
I thought you wanted higher speed than that?

To get '>6000rpm and 1000rpm should the need arise' is challenging. The vast majority of spindles use induction motors and to get the variable speed we use a VFD. The problem with this is you can only get full power down to about half the motor's rated rpm, then below that it drops linearly. So in short either you use a massively overrated motor, or have belts so you can change the drive ratio and keep the motor operating in the rated power region. On my micro lathe I went for the former, which would have been expensive except I had already got the motor.

Hi jonathan, the real requirement is the atc, and i had the idea that the chinese water cooled spindles could be converted but due to the questions that arose in the thread including tool balancing, questions about hollowing the shaft and physical workable material in the shaft i thought it may be better to opt for a tormach like solution with atc which is where the man i2i has come up with the goods, the speed was just a side effect of the spindle rather than a requirement for the project, sorry if i was not clear on that... but then i never was the sharpest pencil in the box ...

JAZZCNC
26-05-2012, 01:57 PM
Er, don't see what all the fuss is about - it's only rated for 6000rpm. Unless some of the others in that table are also ATC spindles...
It looks like BT30 taper tooling is capable of much more than 6000rpm, so it makes you wonder why that spindle can't do it - is it just not balanced very well, or cheap bearings? That would explain the price.

Try making a real ATC with ground and hardend spindle for less than 650 I can't imagine it would be much cheaper and certainly no bettter.

But I do agree the 6K is a bit on the low side for some jobs 10K minimum would be nicer, 30K Woopie dooo.

Thanks for offering about asking for translation, yes please.

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 02:10 PM
Try making a real ATC with ground and hardend spindle for less than 650 I can't imagine it would be much cheaper and certainly no bettter.

But I do agree the 6K is a bit on the low side for some jobs 10K minimum would be nicer, 30K Woopie dooo.

Thanks for offering about asking for translation, yes please.

Jazz i agree but i would rather sacrifice the speed and keep the ATC, 10k would be the max i would need anyhow, the things i do are done on a machine running less than 6k and im resigned to it, so when i started the gantry design the speed wasnt really a question more the ATC of course if you can find similar to i2i at a faster speed for 800 or so then i would not object.. LOL:peaceful:

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 02:15 PM
questions that arose in the thread including tool balancing, questions about hollowing the shaft and physical workable material in the shaft i thought it may be better to opt for a tormach like solution with atc which is where the man i2i has come up with the goods, the speed was just a side effect of the spindle rather than a requirement for the project,

Ahh fair enough, would have linked to that myself if I'd known! For me 6000rpm is useless as the tools I use the vast majority of the time run at 9000-13000rpm.
Making an ATC system for 6000rpm is a lot less challenging since, to an extent, balancing is no longer an issue. Also you can use much bigger/stronger angular contact bearings than at 24krpm which makes the design much easier. Still not saying it's a straightforward project, but I'd consider it as even though that spindle is a good price compared to the rest it's still a lot of money to spend...

For motors you've got lots of options at 6000rpm. Most standard induction motors will overspeed quite a lot, so a 2-pole motor and a belt will give plenty of power and options. However they're rather heavy and bulky.

The motor I used on my micro lathe is actually ideal here:

[That's odd - it's dissapeared from www.hobbyking.com (http://www.hobbyking.com), it was called 'Turnigy 80-100-B 130Kv' ... I'll email to find out where it's gone, hope it's not discontinued. They're available elsewhere but more expensive. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=39779]

Being rated for 6.5kW (as if!) means you could probably afford to run it direct drive and still have plenty of power at 1000rpm, athough it would still be better to have two ratios. Probably 3:1 and 1:1.

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 02:15 PM
Er, don't see what all the fuss is about - it's only rated for 6000rpm. Unless some of the others in that table are also ATC spindles...
It looks like BT30 taper tooling is capable of much more than 6000rpm, so it makes you wonder why that spindle can't do it - is it just not balanced very well, or cheap bearings? That would explain the price.
.
How nice it would be if it was just the bearings, However im not that lucky so im not going to consider it....MUCH

JAZZCNC
26-05-2012, 02:16 PM
if you can find similar to i2i at a faster speed for 800 or so then i would not object.. LOL:peaceful:

Ye if I could they would need to have 2 available or you wouldn't hear about it untill it was fitted. .Lol

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 02:23 PM
LMAO... now i trust your words because that is funny..

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 02:25 PM
Ye if I could they would need to have 2 available or you wouldn't hear about it untill it was fitted. .Lol

Nah, 3 as I'd have already bought one!


Thanks for offering about asking for translation, yes please

No worries... I'll find out.

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 02:29 PM
Oh what's this!

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnczone.ru%2Fforums%2Findex.p hp%3Fact%3Dattach%26type%3Dpost%26id%3D6784&ei=0MvAT7-oIsH80QWQyuShCg&usg=AFQjCNHPjO3D75kHPtaj6srckLwoIqwSSA

http://www.aysipu.com/English/productshow.asp?id=152&mnid=14749&classname=%B9%AB%CB%BE%B2%FA%C6%B7&uppage=/English/product.asp

SPP1030-10-17F, 10,000rpm, $1000

Getting closer to our goal...

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 02:43 PM
Oh what's this!

SPP1030-10-17F, 10,000rpm, $1000

Getting closer to our goal...

Well assuming the postage is $130 like the one from i2i thats 722.50 (plus any taxes god forbid lol) ... dare we go any further.. the thing is i now have what i need so anything else is a bonus as the pressure is off...

i2i
26-05-2012, 02:46 PM
I'm looking at at least one maybe two of these BT30 atc spindles, so when you're looking at getting yours let me know. A better search may provide a better or cheaper product so don't rush into this one.
I also looked at the spindle with the motor, but i need to use 6k or less for mill use.

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 02:51 PM
I'm looking at at least one maybe two of these BT30 atc spindles, so when you're looking at getting yours let me know. A better search may provide a better or cheaper product so don't rush into this one.
I also looked at the spindle with the motor, but i need to use 6k or less for mill use.Your wish is my command we will keep looking, i didnt see the spindle with motor...

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 02:52 PM
I'm looking at at least one maybe two of these BT30 atc spindles, so when you're looking at getting yours let me know. A better search may provide a better or cheaper product so don't rush into this one.
I also looked at the spindle with the motor, but i need to use 6k or less for mill use.

A lot of these places seem to have a quantity discount for 5. If there's one that does at least 12,000rpm then I could be persuaded, which would make 5 (Jazz, you*2, ricardoco, me). Bound to have to pay customs charges, but most seem to value them lower than the actual cost so that shouldn't be too bad.

I'll have a better look later as router is running at the moment...

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 02:54 PM
i know its a bit off topic but what alternatives would you consider to ballscrews on a 6' or 8' setup,


WOW just got a saturday delivery of the bits ive been waiting for...

6x 400x400x40 ali plate
10x 2400x100x50x3 steel box section.
6x 100x400x6 steel plate

Today is looking better and better!!!!!

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 03:01 PM
i know its a bit off topic but what alternatives would you consider to ballscrews on a 6' or 8' setup

I wouldn't.
(http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/3340-Rotating-Ballnut-design-ideas&sa=U&ei=K9TAT4WOGqqg0QXFp8TYCg&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGMyAR5hPgVOZz0bhfj9jVA8LC0Bw)

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 03:05 PM
Nope im not buying 8' ballscrews with all the work that comes with them so i need an alternative...

Jonathan
26-05-2012, 03:11 PM
Nope im not buying 8' ballscrews with all the work that comes with them so i need an alternative...

Struggling to see how ballscrews could be considered a lot of work...compared to making an ATC spindle a rotating nut mount is a doddle. Please see what I posted here:

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/4302-About-to-dip-me-toe-in-the-world-of-cnc-some-advice-please

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 03:27 PM
Struggling to see how ballscrews could be considered a lot of work...compared to making an ATC spindle a rotating nut mount is a doddle. Please see what I posted here:

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/4302-About-to-dip-me-toe-in-the-world-of-cnc-some-advice-please

Let me cure your struggle for you... How much will you charge me for two of those units - steppers you designed and built.

i2i
26-05-2012, 03:28 PM
definately rotating nut, with that length screw

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 03:45 PM
definately rotating nut, with that length screwi was blown away when i first saw what Jonathan did with that rotating nut... very impressed.

JAZZCNC
26-05-2012, 04:53 PM
No brainer to me rotating ballnut every time at this length.!!

And yes I'm up for a bulk buy ATC if it's 12K rpm area. Would prefer BT40 rather than BT30 has the holders tend to be cheaper(Approx 10 less each holder, 10 tools 100 big saving.) more available and allow larger capacity but I can live with BT30 if need be.!

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 06:29 PM
Ok well lets keep looking then, sorry i dissapeared i was trying to get my sketchup drawing to a little less than 87meg!!! so i could e-mail it and it crashed my machine.... damn software...

Ricardoco
26-05-2012, 11:55 PM
Well ive hunted and hunted and 10k is as fast as i can find and to be fair 6k was enough for me so if i settle for 10k i wont be going too far wrong. in fact im not sure i will ever use the extra anyhow, but that will mean the bearings should last a little longer maybe..

AdCNC
27-05-2012, 04:28 PM
Try theses http://www.spnd.com.tw/prod-e.html company called micro lab in taiwan, i had a quote last year for a M3-FPS Belt driven spindle that could run at 10K and that was $1000 these look very good quality units. they also do a load of other style spindles but again price is a big contender here!

Ricardoco
27-05-2012, 06:07 PM
Oooo thats a posh site.. and has some real goodies on it but i cant see any real spec sheets or a price list...

i2i
27-05-2012, 06:33 PM
I would like 1.5 - 3hp motor, 6000 rpm, bt30 atc with grippers, all in one motor/spindle package if poss.

Ricardoco
27-05-2012, 07:06 PM
I would like 1.5 - 3hp motor, 6000 rpm, bt30 atc with grippers, all in one motor/spindle package if poss.
lol me too

Jonathan
27-05-2012, 07:21 PM
I think it's a safe bet to say Jazz and I would only be interested in the 15000rpm, BT30 spindle:

http://www.spnd.com.tw/pem3-fps.html

Realistically I just can't afford one, but lets see what the price actually is first... Also could do with getting a drawing from them.

Ricardoco
27-05-2012, 07:32 PM
I think it's a safe bet to say Jazz and I would only be interested in the 15000rpm, BT30 spindle:

http://www.spnd.com.tw/pem3-fps.html

Realistically I just can't afford one, but lets see what the price actually is first... Also could do with getting a drawing from them.
I bet once you pass 10k the price goes up as much as the rpm..... lol but it would be nice if it had a motor on from where i sit, as i will have to buy one anyhow and im sure that wont be cheap.

i2i
27-05-2012, 07:53 PM
it may be difficult to get a "low" rpm (6000rpm) spindle with the motor fitted.

John S
27-05-2012, 09:14 PM
Build one.

This one is only 1,5Kw, 2HP and ER32 but everything is adaptable.

6072

wiatroda
27-05-2012, 10:10 PM
Build one.
Absolutely
There is one which I build. It takes MT3 ER20 collet chuck or anything with MT3. It's not final design, but gives idea how it will looks like. There will be MT3-like taper on the top to install set of reduction pulleys. I rather needs to go down with the speed than up so taper roller bearing will be perfect for this.
6074
So far hollow shaft including M30/1 thread for preload nu,t internal and external MT3 tapers is turned. I'll try to make some pic of it.

Ricardoco
28-05-2012, 12:40 AM
it may be difficult to get a "low" rpm (6000rpm) spindle with the motor fitted. Im sure it will, but to be fair, the more time goes by, the more likely i am to just buy the 10k ATC spindle and sort the motor seperatly. It seems od to me that so many people have these things but nobody knows where to get them at a reasonable price..lol

Ricardoco
28-05-2012, 12:41 AM
Build one.

This one is only 1,5Kw, 2HP and ER32 but everything is adaptable.

6072

Well the speed is there now ive just got to add ATC and half its size...LOL

JAZZCNC
28-05-2012, 01:22 AM
Build one.

This one is only 1,5Kw, 2HP and ER32 but everything is adaptable.

Can't be arsed with making spindles. The hole point of a spindle is accurecy and I feel that without precision grinding equipment, balancing and correct hardening it's not possible to do and give required accurecy and longevity.! . . It's certainly beyond my equipment.

Add real ATC abilty with industry standard tapers for easily available off the shelf tool holders and it goes to another level.

IMO MT3 hisn't a valid option for ATC due to fact it's a bastard to release and the taper can't handle high rpm, and then there's the toolholders. They will all need to be custom made then balanced for high RPM all very time consuming requiring high precision machines to do it correctly. Same goes for R8.!!
The only way to realisticly do ATC with these tapers is like the Tormach system where just one large collet is permanently in the spindle and custom tool holders made and has can be seen with Tormach they can't achieve high RPM due to balance issues. So to me who idealy wants 15K rpm area thats a non starter.

Like I said earlier in the thread I belive it would be very easy to throw lots of money at building one then still end up with a less than ideal result.? Not a route I'd like or want to take when I know for sure I can have full ATC with industry tapers, thru coolant etc for just less than a grand.!! . . . YES 1000 is lot of money but in the real spindle world it's peanuts.!!!!

This is my Ideal spindle
ATC
20K RPM
BT40 1st choice, BT30 2nd choice both ball grippers.
5KW if inc motor 50-20K rpm
thru coolant
encoder option (I want to ridged Tap)

Yes I know want a lot but that would make me a happy chappie if could happen for 1500 with motor or sub 1000 without.? Honestly dont think it's possible for less than 2K but can live in hope.!!

Ricardoco
28-05-2012, 01:27 AM
Can't be arsed with making spindles. The hole point of a spindle is accurecy and I feel that without precision grinding equipment, balancing and correct hardening it's not possible to do and give required accurecy and longevity.! . . It's certainly beyond my equipment.

Add real ATC abilty with industry standard tapers for easily available off the shelf tool holders and it goes to another level.

IMO MT3 hisn't a valid option for ATC due to fact it's a bastard to release and the taper can't handle high rpm, and then there's the toolholders. They will all need to be custom made then balanced for high RPM all very time consuming requiring high precision machines to do it correctly. Same goes for R8.!!
The only way to realisticly do ATC with these tapers is like the Tormach system where just one large collet is permanently in the spindle and custom tool holders made and has can be seen with Tormach they can't achieve high RPM due to balance issues. So to me who idealy wants 15K rpm area thats a non starter.

Like I said earlier in the thread I belive it would be very easy to throw lots of money at building one then still end up with a less than ideal result.? Not a route I'd like or want to take when I know for sure I can have full ATC with industry tapers, thru coolant etc for just less than a grand.!! . . . YES 1000 is lot of money but in the real spindle world it's peanuts.!!!!

This is my Ideal spindle
ATC
20K RPM
BT40 1st choice, BT30 2nd choice both ball grippers.
5KW if inc motor 50-20K rpm
thru coolant
encoder option (I want to ridged Tap)

Yes I know want a lot but that would make me a happy chappie if could happen for 1500 with motor or sub 1000 without.? Honestly dont think it's possible for less than 2K but can live in hope.!!

Even at the lower spec i require all of the above statement still holds true for me also...

Ricardoco
28-05-2012, 01:28 AM
Jazz do you mind if i ask why you need such high spindle speed?

JAZZCNC
28-05-2012, 02:48 AM
Jazz do you mind if i ask why you need such high spindle speed?

Mainly because I do alot with softer materials like aluminium, brass using smaller diameter cutters (<6mm) and find 12-15K the best speed range regards feed rates, finish etc. Also when 3D finishing using really small multiflute ballnose cutters (<2mm) then even 20K rpm is on the edge of too slow. Same goes for V carving, engraving.!!
On the flipside I want sub 1000rpm for large fly cutters, boreing, drilling etc and full control for tapping.

John S
28-05-2012, 08:35 AM
Like I said earlier in the thread I belive it would be very easy to throw lots of money at building one then still end up with a less than ideal result.? Not a route I'd like or want to take when I know for sure I can have full ATC with industry tapers, thru coolant etc for just less than a grand.!! . . . YES 1000 is lot of money but in the real spindle world it's peanuts.!!!!

This is my Ideal spindle
ATC
20K RPM
BT40 1st choice, BT30 2nd choice both ball grippers.
5KW if inc motor 50-20K rpm
thru coolant
encoder option (I want to ridged Tap)

Yes I know want a lot but that would make me a happy chappie if could happen for 1500 with motor or sub 1000 without.? Honestly dont think it's possible for less than 2K but can live in hope.!!

You are only one step away from an off the shelf VMC or router.
Once you have all this the next failing is going to be the build of the existing machine.
Who's existing machine can carry a BT40 spindle with 5Kw motor ? The high frequency spindles can't hack the whole range as below 8K they are useless on torque unless you do like the big boys and design for minimum speed.

That they do is say to themselves I need 1K minimum speed but at 1K they only have say 10% of torque available of the motor so they up the Kw of the motor just so minimum speed is covered.
Look at some of the modern 5 axis machines with 30Kw spindles, why do you need 30Kw when you never rum greater than 20mm cutters ?
It's only so there is torque available at lower speeds. Even a large motor and inverter is peanuts compared to designing and building a gearbox that can run at 20,000 rpm.

My nephews Biesse router has all you need except thu coolant and there is no way that head will fit on any of the machines I have seen on this site.
If you really need all this then forget the 1500 spindle with motor and buy a S/H Biesse

i2i
28-05-2012, 12:46 PM
a gearbox to cope with 20k, i'll give Lewis or Jensen a ring i'm sure they'll have one spare.:friendly_wink:

i2i
28-05-2012, 12:51 PM
I thought of making a spindle, but the cost of these spindles makes it pointless.

My needs are for a milling machine rather than a router, so i have no probs on the weight or size. In fact this is replacing a bridgeport type head on a Denford Quatro so i have plenty of room.

http://www.denfordata.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=3730

Ricardoco, if you fancy one i have two..

Ricardoco
28-05-2012, 02:12 PM
I thought of making a spindle, but the cost of these spindles makes it pointless.

My needs are for a milling machine rather than a router, so i have no probs on the weight or size. In fact this is replacing a bridgeport type head on a Denford Quatro so i have plenty of room.

http://www.denfordata.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=3730

Ricardoco, if you fancy one i have two..

OMG what are you doing to me.... Im not gonna be able to get that out of my head now.. cheers for that.. they look gorgeous....

i2i
28-05-2012, 02:28 PM
it'll end up being a single phase VMC, with 600 x 300 x 500 axis movement (x y z).

Ricardoco
28-05-2012, 02:33 PM
it'll end up being a single phase VMC, with 600 x 300 x 500 axis movement (x y z). Thats it rub it in... oh and dont forget the ATC!!!

i2i
28-05-2012, 02:34 PM
i havent decided yet how many stations to have on the atc

i2i
28-05-2012, 02:40 PM
i may stick to eight as i have a triac that uses an eight station changer

JAZZCNC
28-05-2012, 03:42 PM
You are only one step away from an off the shelf VMC or router.
Once you have all this the next failing is going to be the build of the existing machine.

Yep thats exactly what I want it for my next machine.!! It will be VMC or possibly HMC which is the latest train of thought.!! Either way it will be massive strong.!! (For DIY)

I've slowly been collecting bits, so far I've got 5x 25mm class 3 ground twin nut screws, 30mm profiled rails/bearings, 2x11Nm Mitsubishi AC servo motors/drives, 60mm ground cast Tslot tooling plate for bed. Grand spend total so far 1100 which hisn't bad to say Screws and rails are brand new.!!. . . Amazing what you drop across if your patient.
Still need more motors and few other bits but I'm getting there slowly. just keep watching for the bargains and trying to snag them before some "OLD BASTARD" does. .:whistle: nearly snagged my self a pallet loader and tombstone other day but didn't happen. . :grumpy:.!!! That would have decided it was HMC which I'm sure it will end up being anyway.?

Dont see many spindles comming up for sale thou and have thought about buying S/H biesse type machine but not really what I'm after. Plus not seen anycheap enough to make stripping out worth it.!! Thou you never know one could pop along unexpected, but I bet you 1000000000000 it does so when I'm brassik or tax mans raped me again. .!!!!

JAZZCNC
28-05-2012, 03:52 PM
a gearbox to cope with 20k, i'll give Lewis or Jensen a ring i'm sure they'll have one spare.:friendly_wink:

Why they only go backwards.:whistle: . . . . . . . . Even Lewis whinged about it off start at weekend.! . . . . Anyway I've got a spare motoX gearbox that can just about handle 20K if your stuck. Lol

i2i
28-05-2012, 05:39 PM
Why they only go backwards.:whistle: . . . . . . . . Even Lewis whinged about it off start at weekend.! . . . . Anyway I've got a spare motoX gearbox that can just about handle 20K if your stuck. LolDoesn't he just moan all the time, i don't know....kids today.

Ricardoco
28-05-2012, 05:48 PM
Why they only go backwards.:whistle: . . . . . . . . Even Lewis whinged about it off start at weekend.! . . . . Anyway I've got a spare motoX gearbox that can just about handle 20K if your stuck. Lol why do we invent all these sports i ask you...

Ricardoco
29-05-2012, 09:05 PM
These look nice..

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/485473415-AC-Servo1-KIT-Motor-Driver-1000W-4-3NM-Encoder-2500CPR-3000RPM-wholesalers.html

JAZZCNC
29-05-2012, 10:12 PM
These look nice..

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/485473415-AC-Servo1-KIT-Motor-Driver-1000W-4-3NM-Encoder-2500CPR-3000RPM-wholesalers.html

DMM you can have a full 4 axis set 1000W motors and drives BOB, PSU,cables etc for $1600.!!. . .Not exactly comparing apples with apples due to lower RPM but still good price.

http://www.dmm-tech.com/technology_solutions.html

JAZZCNC
29-05-2012, 10:53 PM
This is better set off Alibahbah . . http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/529216001-AC-SERVO-MOTOR-DRIVER-SYSTEM-3-KITS-1KW-4Nm-130HM-8M04025-FREE-SHIPPING-wholesalers.html

Ricardoco
29-05-2012, 11:45 PM
This is better set off Alibahbah . . http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/529216001-AC-SERVO-MOTOR-DRIVER-SYSTEM-3-KITS-1KW-4Nm-130HM-8M04025-FREE-SHIPPING-wholesalers.html
Yep you are right and with free shipping thats a real good deal... Im still trying to find a low profile motor with enough power to gear up and down around 6k and im not having any luck.. it looks like im going to get my atc but i will onle be able to draw pictures with the machine.... in ten colours of course..

i2i
30-05-2012, 12:27 AM
you need a bigger mill

Ricardoco
30-05-2012, 01:26 AM
you need a bigger mill nasty nasty!! Hmmm I need a bigger workshop as well but im not sure i will get either this is what its all for...6087

i2i
30-05-2012, 10:56 AM
Have you still got my mobile number, i have an idea for a cheap and sturdy router

JAZZCNC
30-05-2012, 11:07 AM
nasty nasty!! Hmmm I need a bigger workshop as well but im not sure i will get either this is what its all for...6087

Just random thoughts that popped into my head on first sight. . . Doh I hate my brain when does this.:emmersed:

That tool change station needs putting in a box or moving.? Where it is will get covered in chips and crap and will be useless.
Also that shelf.? If it's for the controlbox/PC etc then I wouldn't do that either for same reason.!!

Ricardoco
30-05-2012, 11:43 AM
Just random thoughts that popped into my head on first sight. . . Doh I hate my brain when does this.:emmersed:

I like random thoughts they help me consider the things ive forgotten and the things ive messed up so crack on..

That tool change station needs putting in a box or moving.? Where it is will get covered in chips and crap and will be useless.
Also that shelf.? If it's for the controlbox/PC etc then I wouldn't do that either for same reason.!! all the screens and guards have been ommited for clarity, the shelf will have doors on it and the tool rack will actually be behind a guard that moves when needed

Ricardoco
30-05-2012, 02:22 PM
Unrelated i Know but look at what ive got... another toy (this was the picture from the auction) 6088

JAZZCNC
30-05-2012, 10:51 PM
I want a toolchanger like this one at the 58 second mark.!!!. . . . Infact I want this machine. .:emmersed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=9MFRPGf4JDk

Ricardoco
21-06-2012, 12:57 AM
Ok Just had an update and i think we are getting a little closer...

" Hi Rick Pls check the attached, my quotation as below,
SPP1030-10-17F: FOB Dongguan US$1,142.00 in each.

Its max revolution is 10,000rpm, but if you insist 12,000rpm, price will be US$1,586.00, as we need to adopt Germany ceramics bearings, its cost is much higher than our standard bearings (NSK brand, made in Japan)

Any question, pls let me know.

Regards Sam

Ive Now asked for shipping and unit discount for 5..

so fingers crossed ...


6180

Ricardoco
21-06-2012, 02:39 AM
Ok Just had an update and i think we are getting a little closer...

" Hi Rick Pls check the attached, my quotation as below,
SPP1030-10-17F: FOB Dongguan US$1,142.00 in each.

Its max revolution is 10,000rpm, but if you insist 12,000rpm, price will be US$1,586.00, as we need to adopt Germany ceramics bearings, its cost is much higher than our standard bearings (NSK brand, made in Japan)

Any question, pls let me know.

Regards Sam

Ive Now asked for shipping and unit discount for 5..

so fingers crossed ...


6180

Okay update:- $1522.00 each if 5 units ordered, awaiting shipping costs now..

Jonathan
21-06-2012, 08:51 PM
For that amount of money I'd want to be getting more than 12000rpm. 18000rpm would be much better, but it seems toolholders which are sufficiently well balanced for that speed are rare and expensive.

This lot look worth investigating:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/546547642/ATC_Spindle_Motor_For_Milling_Machine.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/538538783/24000RPM_Milling_ATC_Spindle_Motor_BT30.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/538535553/3_2KW_Milling_ATC_Spindle_Motor.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/463138043/cnc_spindle_with_atc.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/360970774/SIPU_High_Speed_Frequency_Spindle_Motor.html

In particular the first one - 1130-24Z or 1130-16Z. The 24Z (24krpm) has 35mm bore bearings, but the 16Z (18krpm) has 40mm bore thin section bearings. Need to investigate which is strongest. The one you have a quote for uses 45mm bore bearings, so it would be more rigid, but any of these will be more than the standard 2.2kw ER20 spindles which only use 25mm bearings. If they can't wind the -24Z for 220V then it'll have to be the 16Z spindle anyway.

http://lyzyzc.en.alibaba.com/product/522344085-210228033/SNFA_super_precision_angular_contact_ceramic_ball_ bearing_VEX35_NS7CE1DDL.html

Ricardoco
21-06-2012, 09:31 PM
For that amount of money I'd want to be getting more than 12000rpm. 18000rpm would be much better, but it seems toolholders which are sufficiently well balanced for that speed are rare and expensive.

This lot look worth investigating:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/546547642/ATC_Spindle_Motor_For_Milling_Machine.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/538538783/24000RPM_Milling_ATC_Spindle_Motor_BT30.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/538535553/3_2KW_Milling_ATC_Spindle_Motor.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/463138043/cnc_spindle_with_atc.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/360970774/SIPU_High_Speed_Frequency_Spindle_Motor.html

In particular the first one - 1130-24Z or 1130-16Z. The 24Z (24krpm) has 35mm bore bearings, but the 16Z (18krpm) has 40mm bore thin section bearings. Need to investigate which is strongest. The one you have a quote for uses 45mm bore bearings, so it would be more rigid, but any of these will be more than the standard 2.2kw ER20 spindles which only use 25mm bearings. If they can't wind the -24Z for 220V then it'll have to be the 16Z spindle anyway.

http://lyzyzc.en.alibaba.com/product/522344085-210228033/SNFA_super_precision_angular_contact_ceramic_ball_ bearing_VEX35_NS7CE1DDL.html

First of all i dont really need 18k and None of the links you put on there are quotes, but just guide prices, get some quotes and see what you get, the item i have posted is without motor, i am awaiting updated paperwork for that, and is new unlike some of the links you have provided, they are used/refurbished items and as such very overpriced, i want BT30 ATC 12k rpm max (just for flexability) so if you can go cheaper price new not used, then post the quotes and i will contact them and may even buy one..or more

Rick

To Beat we have

12k rpm spindle cartridge
BT30 ATC

$1522 = 976.52

Ricardoco
21-06-2012, 10:12 PM
For that amount of money I'd want to be getting more than 12000rpm. 18000rpm would be much better, but it seems toolholders which are sufficiently well balanced for that speed are rare and expensive.

This lot look worth investigating:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/546547642/ATC_Spindle_Motor_For_Milling_Machine.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/538538783/24000RPM_Milling_ATC_Spindle_Motor_BT30.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/538535553/3_2KW_Milling_ATC_Spindle_Motor.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/463138043/cnc_spindle_with_atc.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/360970774/SIPU_High_Speed_Frequency_Spindle_Motor.html

In particular the first one - 1130-24Z or 1130-16Z. The 24Z (24krpm) has 35mm bore bearings, but the 16Z (18krpm) has 40mm bore thin section bearings. Need to investigate which is strongest. The one you have a quote for uses 45mm bore bearings, so it would be more rigid, but any of these will be more than the standard 2.2kw ER20 spindles which only use 25mm bearings. If they can't wind the -24Z for 220V then it'll have to be the 16Z spindle anyway.

http://lyzyzc.en.alibaba.com/product/522344085-210228033/SNFA_super_precision_angular_contact_ceramic_ball_ bearing_VEX35_NS7CE1DDL.html

Oh just noticed three of your links are for Ms Xing....lol dont believe all you read will you

Here was The quote she gave me...

"Elizabeth Xing:(02:14:19):

3.2 kw BT30 18000rpm spindle
motor is 110mm, OK?

Rick:(02:15:35):
ok 380v
spindle


Elizabeth Xing:(02:17:26):


2199 dollars per piece, not
including the pull stud and toolholder.

Sorry, 2177 dollars per
piece.

Reply (alires:///MsgHistory/MsgHistoryEx.htm?cssname=default#) View
Context (alires:///MsgHistory/MsgHistoryEx.htm?cssname=default#)

Rick:(02:18:10):

and
220v


Elizabeth Xing:(02:18:20):

the
same.

Rick:(02:18:43):


Ok and what price for shipping
to UK

Elizabeth Xing:(02:19:31):

Shipped by DHL, 249
dollars.Package weight 23
kg.




Any questions???

Jonathan
21-06-2012, 10:53 PM
Oh just noticed three of your links are for Ms Xing....lol dont believe all you read will you

I'm not sure what you mean? The price they have quoted is well within the price range on all Ms Xing's listings.

The 1530-9-12 as it is 9-12krpm looks much more suitable for your application.


is new unlike some of the links you have provided

Which?

Ricardoco
21-06-2012, 11:25 PM
I'm not sure what you mean? The price they have quoted is well within the price range on all Ms Xing's listings.?

It is like those hotel rooms starting at 19 when you get there they are all booked out, Every time..

I asked her what spec were her spindles for $1920, and she has none left and it is only a guide price. and some of her spindles fall outside the top end as well..


The 1530-9-12 as it is 9-12krpm looks much more suitable for your application..

As i stated earlier in the thread i want as much flexability as possible which meant buying a seperate motor, 9k is to high for the lower limit. As you stated earlier the motors have no power at the lower speed, I will be gearing down to 2k on spindle with an approx 0-6k motor and up to 10k if need be i will be using pulleys for this, with a little left in reserve.


Which? take a look at the pictures you cant miss it.. when i asked her if they were "used" she just said "some" Its all too easy to blag and blame the language barrier when in fact every word is understood perfectly..
.

But thanks anyhow Jonathan

i2i
21-06-2012, 11:48 PM
I've had a thought. We discounted making these spindles as it would be too much hassle making a one off. But i want two, and overall we're looking at five so maybe we can get this sorted and get 5 universal bt30 spindle sections made, and configure the case and bearings to suit our own requirements. This way we all get what we want and the expensive ground spindle can be made for us.

i2i
21-06-2012, 11:57 PM
anybody else want to jump on

Ricardoco
21-06-2012, 11:58 PM
I've had a thought. We discounted making these spindles as it would be too much hassle making a one off. But i want two, and overall we're looking at five so maybe we can get this sorted and get 5 universal bt30 spindle sections made, and configure the case and bearings to suit our own requirements. This way we all get what we want and the expensive ground spindle can be made for us.

Well I'm willing to explore that avenue, whatever gets me the ATC spindle i require..

Jonathan
22-06-2012, 12:04 AM
But i want two, and overall we're looking at five so maybe we can get this sorted and get 5 universal bt30 spindle sections made, and configure the case and bearings to suit our own requirements. This way we all get what we want and the expensive ground spindle can be made for us.

I'm all for that, but things like this gentlemen's experience worry me:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical_mill_lathe_project_log/41200-bt30_spindle_project-13.html

The other problem is the cost of the super-precision bearings which are a necessity for the sorts of speeds we're after. The place I posted in post #101 may help there.

I bought plenty of 35mm EN19 steel for precisely this project...


As i stated earlier in the thread i want as much flexability as possible which meant buying a seperate motor, 9k is to high for the lower limit.

9k is almost certainly not the lower limit, I bet it is 9k upper limit with 'standard' bearings and 12k upper limit with the better ones.
I was going by what you said here with regards to including a motor:


I bet once you pass 10k the price goes up as much as the rpm..... lol but it would be nice if it had a motor on from where i sit, as i will have to buy one anyhow and im sure that wont be cheap.

But if you're prepared to do the extra work to attach your own motor then that is definitely the best solution since, as you said, you require useful power at 1000rpm.

i2i
22-06-2012, 12:10 AM
i'm going to have 2 pole 1.5hp 3 phase motors on mine, and i fancy drilling through the motor spindle and attaching the atc actuator on the top of the motor so everything is in line

Ricardoco
22-06-2012, 12:26 AM
i'm going to have 2 pole 1.5hp 3 phase motors on mine, and i fancy drilling through the motor spindle and attaching the atc actuator on the top of the motor so everything is in line I will have to stick with pulleys

i2i
22-06-2012, 10:11 PM
well i've spent a few hours today pulling apart the J head on the first quatro, and it looks like i'll probably be stripping the quill and putting a new bt30 atc spindle into it to replace the R8 spindle. It would be a shame not to utilise the existing head and quill with it's bearings.
The design of this spindle will probably be longer that the design on other ones, so mine may well be a special.

Ricardoco
22-06-2012, 10:20 PM
:dejection:Back to the trawling then....:sorrow::sorrow::sorrow: HELLLLPPPP Im going round in circles here...lol

i2i
22-06-2012, 10:31 PM
no reason why we can't keep going down this line, it just means my ones will be slightly different

Ricardoco
23-06-2012, 02:59 AM
no reason why we can't keep going down this line, it just means my ones will be slightly differentim sure we will get there, as i said i can wait for the best solution anyhow..

Rick

i2i
29-06-2012, 12:45 AM
News from my end, i'm having the existing spindles reground to match the 30 taper, when they're back i'll see if they do the job. If so i'm out guys, this will save me a fair bit so i have to try it.

Jonathan
16-08-2012, 06:59 PM
News from my end, i'm having the existing spindles reground to match the 30 taper, when they're back i'll see if they do the job. If so i'm out guys, this will save me a fair bit so i have to try it.

Did you get anywhere with this?

I just spotted that the 6000rpm spindle from the same seller linked to earlier has 5% off and more interestingly someone's actually bought and reviewed it:

EN027# Spindle with synchronous belt for CNC milling BT30 ATC steel ball clamp+ disc spring+drawbar-in Machine Tool Spindle from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/540553447-EN027-Spindle-with-synchronous-belt-for-CNC-milling-BT30-ATC-steel-ball-clamp-disc-spring-drawbar-wholesalers.html)

'Fast delivery and nice spindle, but not the dimensions shown on the drawing on the listing. Diameter is 80mm above the flange and 85mm below it. It is in fact a SIPU model SPP8030-060-10F But still a BT30 ATC and 6000rpm so I am happy. :) FYI the timing pulley is a 45 tooth HTD5M and is 35mm wide Thanks'

Still too much to spend for me to only get 6000rpm...

i2i
16-08-2012, 10:55 PM
got the spindles back from the grinder and a bt30 hoder rings quite well into them. I'm in two minds now whether to leave the motor/pulley arrangement as is (bridgeport), or remove the pulley section and mount the motor directly on top of the spindle with a drawbar through the motor.

i2i
28-10-2013, 03:15 PM
Well I got there in the end but via a different route. I ended up buying two HSD router spindles which have a 30 taper and air powered atc. They are 6.8kw and 24000 rpm, and should have a fair bit of power run at slower speeds.

Jonathan
28-10-2013, 03:48 PM
Both of these (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spare-Biesse-HSD-CNC-Router-Spindle-ISO30-6-8KW-/261301887083?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Contr ol_ET&hash=item3cd6ce606b) I presume?

i2i
28-10-2013, 03:53 PM
yes, both of those. I looked at a 10kw one locally and as it was 380v only I decided not to go for it, which after the auction had finished I regretted not getting it. Then those two appeared so it had to be.

i2i
17-11-2013, 02:47 PM
got the steel ordered for the adapter plates, so hopefully next week i'll have them mounted on the Quatros.

PS I bought another Quatro the other day but i'm setting this one up as a cnc slotter.

biketrialsdave
04-12-2016, 09:31 PM
I know this thread is very old but just read from start to finish. Did anyone buy a Chinese spindle in the end? Any other DIY spindles come through since Henrik's one on cnczone? I can see myself designing a mill in the future and I think BT30 is the way to go.

biketrialsdave
05-12-2016, 12:16 AM
There's a lot of these spindles on alibaba. It looks as if the main limitif factor on rpm is the bearings? How are the bearings in the Chinese 2.2kw spindle capable of faster speeds?

http://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product-detail/BEST-Spindle-with-synchronous-belt-for_60536293480.html