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View Full Version : RFQ: Honest quotation for these dies please.



Noel.C
31-05-2012, 08:20 PM
Redundant data
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Noel.C
02-06-2012, 01:51 PM
Think I have been approaching this problem the wrong way.
So, im going to put it a different way.

I want dies to make this part
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/554726_456040344425757_100000593853506_1746333_135 60393_n.jpg

Dont care how its made
So long as it works in an arbor press
1mm aluminium sheet will be in use

Can I have a quote?

wiatroda
03-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Hi mate
As far as I can see it punching dies should be made from tool steel. It's harder than normal mild steel and requires rigid mill. The shape of your alu plate forces to use CNC mill.
The male part of the die (egg shape) can be grind to shape but the female part have to be milled.
I'm not die expert (never did any)l, but do you think, because it is only 1mm thick aluminium, would mild steel be tough enough to work as a punching/cutting die. What about to consider carburising/case hardening after machining ????
I believe, in case of profiling/bending dies, mild steel could be sufficiently hard for this purpose.

Noel.C
04-06-2012, 12:32 AM
Hi mate
As far as I can see it punching dies should be made from tool steel. It's harder than normal mild steel and requires rigid mill. The shape of your alu plate forces to use CNC mill.
The male part of the die (egg shape) can be grind to shape but the female part have to be milled.
I'm not die expert (never did any)l, but do you think, because it is only 1mm thick aluminium, would mild steel be tough enough to work as a punching/cutting die. What about to consider carburising/case hardening after machining ????
I believe, in case of profiling/bending dies, mild steel could be sufficiently hard for this purpose.

Mild steel would be sufficient for the bending die yes, but it will defo not be sufficient
for the punching and cutting die. Me and my fabricator friend experimented with punching some alu
with mild steel and it deformed after 2 or 3 cuts.

Ultimatly I have grown awfully tired getting a die maker to do this for me and tbh I think
I can hash it together without one. Granted, it will require some lazer cutting work and my
fabricator has a friend who works on a lathe.

My bet was to get the male / female cutter done by lazer, then get the lathe guy to
grind the edges sharp. I could temper the steel myself in the foundry that
I am building. Then using a bracket and set of bolts I could attach the male
to the arbor.

The punching tool I was gonna hash together by getting two bolts aprox 4mm dia
oh a decent grade of steel. drill out the inside then get the lathe guy to grind those
edges of the boltd sharp then attach the bolts to a plate and hopefully get a result that way.
It is all a tad amateurish but at this rate I honestly couldnt give a balls to be frank about it.

Noel.C
04-06-2012, 01:54 AM
That was my nut and bolt idea for the punch die, shows the three processes im guessing
a bolt would have to go through to become a punch. If I can get away with it, then it's
fine by me.

6099

spluppit
05-06-2012, 03:03 PM
Hi,

I am A Toolmaker, I read a lot here but rarely post.


The way you want to go about this will result in a lot of wasted time and tooling that will not work. I will be happy to advise if you want to go the home route but to get consistency out of any tooling it has to be made correctly. The One main and very important question is how may of these parts do you need to produce? this will alter how you go about making the tooling and the methods used. Single stage tooling or a progression tool which would do all all operation in one tool.


Kind regards,


Scott

m_c
05-06-2012, 03:08 PM
Scott raises some good points.

However thinking out side the box abit, have you priced having the bits you need laser cut?
Then bend them using some simple forming dies. I'd guess with minimal tools, you could use some metal backed/held hardwood.

Noel.C
05-06-2012, 03:30 PM
To Spluppit - I plan to make 800 initially
I am interested only in single stage


To m_c - I am contacting a number of
different lazer cutting services at the moment,
being a bank holiday I dont expect much of a
response untill later in the week. Trying to find
one that can obtain small quantitys of tool steel
as my local chap cannot.

spluppit
05-06-2012, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the reply Noel,

Not realising there are other threads regarding this tooling and after taking a read. This is my conclusion, I will be very blunt here so its not meant in an offensive way.

First and foremost cost it does seem you want this done at pretty much no cost, if you think a second hand fly press is expensive then you dont want want prices for tooling.

You are talking several thousands to make tooling like this. yes its pretty simple and hardly complex, but the guys working on tooling have some very expensive equipment to upkeep and that had to be bought, so you are not gonna get any tooling for a few hundred quid the raw materials for the blanking tool will exceed that alone! Not to mention a die set.

You can totally forget using laser cutters to make dies, total waste of money, very simply is nowhere near accurate enough or good enough finish. Seriously, throw that though out of your brain right now before you are tempted, as i will say told ya so!

Presses: the only press that would be any good as mention, is a fly press and then is will have to be an accurate one, if out of square or badly worn you will constantly edging the dye which will means constant regrinding. Note use of the word grinding here, tooling is made with the grinding process being very predominant. Forget any other weird form of press, home made or etc It will not work it will not be square enough, even in a die set.

The quantity you want is not enough to justify the tooling cost. Tooling is generally made to produce tens of thousands of parts to millions. This is the only way it becomes cost effective unless its a niche with a high cost per part.


I suggest this you look at getting the blanks 'water jet cut' not laser. Laser will give an awful molten finish on the edges. Most laser cutters will not touch ally for his reason. Look at getting the form tool made to produce the angle you want. This is the only cheap solution you have in my view that will work and give you consistency. Even so that tool alone wont be cheap. If there is not a lot of accuracy involved with that form look at a small bench bender, something from http://www.stakesys.co.uk/ or some similar place.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but tooling is not cheap and learning the trade takes many years and it costs.



Kind regards,


Scott

Noel.C
05-06-2012, 04:33 PM
Thats ok thanks, im not too upset, I'll just revert to the original plan
although it would have been a whole lot more fun making them
myself.

Cheers
Noel

spluppit
05-06-2012, 04:43 PM
Hi Noel,

What was the original plan?

Noel.C
05-06-2012, 04:58 PM
just get the scales lazer cut, I was quoted I think 260 for 800 of them, then
file and polish them, and apply the sound dampening material each one will need.
I'll bend them in my local fabricators place, he lets me use his huge press as he is
always out on jobs.