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wilfy
19-08-2012, 01:37 AM
we've recently moved in to this house, and part of the criteria for us moving was that i had a garage for all my tools and for me to have a place to work on my hobbies and slowly build up my collection of tools which will peak with the build of my cnc machine at the start of next year.

now the choice of how the garage has been built is not my choice as i'd have had brick built over this any day, but either way its at least 20 times bigger than the outhouse i worked out of at our previous house.

started off like this
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as a storage place while we moved, believe me the amount of crap I've shifted out of that garage the last few weeks has been depressing

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so today i got started on cladding it out, material of choice is BnQ's OSB 2 11mm board, all cut to size and delivered to the garage all i have to do is simply drill a few holes and it's done
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all cleaned out ready to clad

I've had problems drilling the concrete garage as i believe it's steel reinforced so it's pot luck if i hit any metal.. i hit something today i'm it melted the bit square off, so i'm borrowing an SDS this week which will hopefully help get it done
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the funky flooring is actually some cheapo outdoor play mats that Tesco were floggin off for 3.50 per pack of 4, i'd always said i wanted a padded floor due to bad knees so i'll never have to worry about where i'm kneeling down, plus i plan to do some exercise in here as well so it's multi purpose it also has the added benefit of being soft on the feet so when standing still for ages it wont be a cold concrete floor beneath me. i actually like the fact it's coloured :D


future plans are 2 x 25mm mdf worktops which to start with will be mounted on some timber frames, but i would like to make steel box section frames and bolt them down to the floor so i can mount a vice on one and have better stability. at the end of one work top will be the mig welder I've just bought, the end of the other one will be a table saw. the cnc i plan to build will basically take up the space of a 2x2 square of the flooring.

i also plan to have a weights bench in there as well, i may even make provisions to have this folding out the way so it doesn't take up too much room and a rack to hold my homebrew kegs, one of which is pictured in the first picture

irving2008
19-08-2012, 08:49 AM
Nice garage. Be very careful about drilling into the reinforcing rods, you can easily crack the concrete. Even a hairline crack will allow moisture in and will cause spalling (flaking of the concrete due to the rod rusting) and cutting through a rod could impact on the integrity of the panel.

Have you considered how to heat it in winter? The thermal conductivity of those concrete slabs is suprisingly high, it will be chilly in there in the winter, even with the OSB acting as sone insulation you'll need approx 4kW to maintain an internal temp of 20degC when its 0degC outside. Personally I would have glued 50mm battens to the concrete at suitable intervals, filled the gaps with 50mm insulation and then screwed the OSB to the battens. Would be quicker to install, and warmer.

What are you planning to do about the roof? Apart from the obvious gaps you can see due to the corrugations its also a major source of heat loss and needs at least 75mm insulation. Ditto the door.

I like the floor mats, but sadly I thnk they'll look very grubby soon. Are they washable?

John S
19-08-2012, 12:15 PM
I'm with Irving on this, whilst you have chance fit some insulation, it will pay for itself over and over again. You can get some powdered adhesive used for sticking plasterboard to walls, cheap and it stick like sht to the proverbial blanket.

Also second the floor tiles, I got some from Amazon a while ago and put some on the floor boards in the workshop. That's the boards that sit on a concrete floor in front of the bench, like duck boards but in my case just solid 25mm MDF to make it easier in your feet. Lasted a week before they had chips trod in and were starting to break up.

m_c
19-08-2012, 12:24 PM
Irving, where did you get the info for calculating heat loss/heating requirements?

irving2008
19-08-2012, 02:38 PM
Irving, where did you get the info for calculating heat loss/heating requirements?

Ummm, one of the civil engineering websites... IHeat Loss through Building Elements due to Transmission (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-loss-transmission-d_748.html)

but when I googled I also came up with this: Heat Loss Through Enclosure Walls Equations and Calculations - Engineers Edge (http://www.engineersedge.com/heat_transfer/heat-loss-container-calcs.htm) which I've not tried to see if it gives the same answer.

Also I found stuff on the concrete supply industry website..

I was doing the calcs for my own proposed workshop and 75mm on the walls, 100mm in the roof and a DPC in the floor are almost essential... I reckon my 6m x 4m build (no up n over door and double glazed, with uPVC personnel door) will require only 600 - 800W to maintain temperature. Given I only have a 32A breaker on a 20A feed I don't want to be using 12A for a 3kw heater.. i want to be able to power everything with some margin. I also plan remote heating control so I can maintain a background temperature in there to ward off condensation and remotely bring it up to working temp fairly quickly

m_c
19-08-2012, 07:06 PM
Thanks for that. I've tried googling for those figures/calcs in the past, and always given up due to finding totally irrelevant or overly techincal stuff that just makes my head hurt, but those pages simplify things well!

irving2008
19-08-2012, 07:57 PM
Thanks for that. I've tried googling for those figures/calcs in the past, and always given up due to finding totally irrelevant or overly techincal stuff that just makes my head hurt, but those pages simplify things well!

Yes i found it useful as well

Sample calcs...

For a 5m x 2.5m concrete panel garage, 2m high. corrugated steel roof

Wall area = (5 + 5 + 2.5) * 2 = 25sq m. heat loss = U x A x dT . U = 1/R for concrete ~ .08/25mm so a 50mm panel R=0.16, U = 6.3, loss = 6.3 x 25 x (20 - 0) = 3150W
Up n over door = 2.5 x 2m = 5sq m. U of metal door = 6.8 Heat loss = 6.8 x 5 x (20 - 0) = 743W
Roof = 5m x 2.5m = 12.5sq m. U of corrugated metal = 8.5 Heat loss = 8.5 x 12.5 x (20 - 0) = 2125W
Concrete slab = 5 x 2.5 = 12.5sq m. Assume 150mm thick, so U = 1/((150/25)*.08) = 2. Also assume undersoil temp = 12degC Heat loss = 2 * 12.5 * (20-12) = 200W


Total loss = 3150 + 743 + 2125 + 200 = 6218W so something in excess of 4kW heating will be needed to maintain a comfortable working temperature.

insulating the roof (R=.12) with 100mm of polyurethane foam (R=1.2 per 25mm) and 18mm of OSB (R = .25) gives a U factor of 1/( .12 + 4.8 + .25) = 0.2 and therefore a loss of 0.2 x 12.5 x (20-0) = 50W, a big improvement.

Similarly the walls, but say 50mm poly and 11mm OSB, U = 1/( .16 + 2.4 +.15) = 0.37, therefore loss .37 x 25 x(20-0) = 185W

Not much you can do about the slab (except put some carpet down :) ), but even now the losses are 185 + 743 + 50 + 200 = 1178W.. a four-fold+ reduction in heating needed...

I'd do something about the door, simply to avoid a temperature gradient inside, it'll feel colder that end!

Caveat... Its really hard to find accurate U and R factors for the actual materials used, so this is at best an approximation, however it shows why insulation is a good thing! Also doesnt account for air circulation and interchange - so you will lose heat through ventilation as well...

wilfy
19-08-2012, 08:28 PM
are your worries over the cold workshop to do with myself being too cold or the effective running of a CNC machine in a cold room?

Jonathan
19-08-2012, 08:46 PM
are your worries over the cold workshop to do with myself being too cold or the effective running of a CNC machine in a cold room?

if the temerature drops below 5C condensation may well settle on the machines which will cause them to rust...

wilfy
19-08-2012, 09:05 PM
in that case i may consider boxing in the cnc some how with an insulated cover and a small heater to keep the chill off... but the main function of this garage it doesnt need to be kept at room temperature... i've worked in open plan factories with big shutter doors open at both ends, i work outside alot of the day so i consider myself well adjusted.

yes i understand what the problems are with this garage but at the moment in time i'd rather not worry about me being cold and worry more about getting a nice place to do some work in and get some stuff built... this has come a long way from what i had last year, i literally shared an outhouse with the washing machine and had 3 barrels of homebrew on my only worktop in there... so all things considered yes it's not ideal but it's an improvement on what i had.

if i had my own way i'd knock it down and rebuild it and insulate it much better, but that i am afraid is a job for when i have my own house, i prob shouldnt even be doing this but i'll deal with that if i have to

i2i
19-08-2012, 09:18 PM
a heated pet mat in the control box keeps the electronics safe

boldford
19-08-2012, 10:06 PM
. . . . . i literally shared an outhouse with . . . . . 3 barrels of homebrew . . . . . What on earth made you move?

wilfy
19-08-2012, 11:37 PM
dont worry the homebrew came with me :D

JAZZCNC
20-08-2012, 12:53 AM
dont worry the homebrew came with me :D

Better still room for 6 barrels now and who gives a shit about cold after 2 barrels. . :beer:

wilfy
21-08-2012, 12:29 PM
borrowed an SDS drill to help get through these concrete panels as i was blunting drill bits after one board.. it's like cutting through butter now, put up all the panels on the left side now, but gotta go work in a bit, so will shift all the crap over to the other side to make space for me to put the other panels up and hopefully the cladding will be done 2moro morning and i can then start thinking about the worktops

wilfy
10-12-2012, 11:52 PM
ok if anyone can be bothered to help me out here i've now started to see the problems with not having insulation in this garage.

the problem i am having is condensation developing on the tin roof and dropping down all over the place.. this has to stop as it has already ruined the nice smooth finish of my mdf worktops, them i can live with... but water/damp in my cnc machine, pillar drill, chop saw ect i cant live with.

i really need to find the cheapest way possible to just stop the condensation, again as before i'm not bothered about me being cold myself in there i can live with that.. but the dripping condensation is a big worry.

i have stuck an oil filled rad in there for now, but it's more of a direct heat in that it's warming the panels above the rad but not much else and the frost outside is acctually freezing the condensation even with the rad in there.

one part of my wants to reduce air flow, as they say heat rises and at the moment as soon as the heat goes up it can escape through every single side of the building.

my initial thought is something like speaker box carpet glued to the roof with spray adhesive and expanding foam around all the gaps in roof joins to the concrete...


anyone else have any other cheapo ideas that will help this problem?

wilfy
11-12-2012, 12:28 AM
just reading a mig welders forum this stuff seems to work well from what one guy is saying

METAL SHED condensation HELP - Page 2 - MIG Welding Forum (http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=23962&page=2)

it's like 5mm floor underlay

looking round ebay i could possibly get something like
Foam Underlay - Carpet - Approx 10m x 1.5m x 8mm NEW LOOK! | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Foam-Underlay-Carpet-Approx-10m-x-1-5m-x-8mm-NEW-LOOK-/261138684903?pt=UK_Home_Garden_FittedCarpets_Under lay_SM&hash=item3ccd141be7&_uhb=1)

quite cheap and i could spray glue it to the roof no problem

kingcreaky
11-12-2012, 08:57 AM
Very ironic you should bring this subject up.

Only last weekend, I decided to draw a line under years of drippy condensation!. Its literally been the bain of my existance since I build the garage 6 years ago.

My garage is 22ft long, by 11ft. Its a mix-match of concrete sections and breeze block. Still only single skin though. then industrial metal roofing sheets (the kind commercial units are clad with)

Two years ago, I converted a gas bottle into a log burner which helps on these cold winter nights, however the warmer you get the garage the more it USED to drip.

The other contributing factor I think, is the fact I sealed the ribbs in the roof in with foam to stop the draft coming in - inbetween.

Anyway, I looked into all kinds of options; had quotes to get it sprayed with foam, thought about putting in a sub-roof inbetween the joists. but in the end decided to bite the bullet and do it properly

so saturday morning I spent 170 on 9 sheets of 8x4 OSB, and 3 rolls of felt.

I removed the metal tin, put the wood down, felted it then put the metal back on top. (sounds so simple!) To be fair it wasnt difficult just heavy work on your tod. Fortunately I have the balance of a ninja cat.

It is now like a sactuary! the accoustics have dramatically changed and best of all... wait for it... NO DRIPPING.

:-D


Whatever you do; spend your money wisely. you may find a cheaper fix but if its somewhere you spend a lot of time its best to have it right.

wilfy
11-12-2012, 09:13 AM
if there is an air gap between your sheets/felt and the roof it's highly likely it's still dripping just you cant see it.. for you that is alright as it's felted and should run off.

my roof is almost flat and such a run off will not work and i imagine any dripping will just poll up and find a way under the felt.

my plan is to copy what that other fella has done and put foam underlay with spray glue to the roof, my friend has some decent stuff that goes in a spray gun so should make easy work of it...

i've had an oil heater in there all night and looking out the window there is literally one small patch about an 8th the space of the garage that looks dry on the roof, the rest is still frosty.. i will get this sorted this week as i really need to feel like i can do some work in there, it's starting to make me put jobs off which is no good

alex wight
11-12-2012, 09:41 AM
i Have the same problem with my metal shed. I,m replacing the metal roof for a wooden one. I,m building an extension onto this shed, and will all be made from wood, then i,ll have a piece of mind that nothing will be getting wet from condensation, happy days.

D.C.
11-12-2012, 03:24 PM
Ever thought of adding insulation, it is pretty cheap at the moment and you can just staple the stuff on:

11 for 8mx60cm
Thermal Insulation Foil Roll 600mmx8m - Loft Insulation - Insulation -Building Materials - Wickes (http://www.wickes.co.uk/thermal-insulation-foil-roll-600mmx8m/invt/210022/?source=123_74)

Expanding foam for drafts will obvious help as well,

kingcreaky
11-12-2012, 03:48 PM
forgive me for my naivety, and you guys are ALL cleverer than I... Ive been reading your posts!.
I obviously fell asleep in this lesson..surely the condensation will just form behind the carpet/foam/etc whaever it is your sticking to the roof? so essentially you are catching drips? rather than solving the problem... the foam will eventually smell of stagnent water? I dont know...

wilfy
11-12-2012, 07:53 PM
forgive me for my naivety, and you guys are ALL cleverer than I... Ive been reading your posts!.
I obviously fell asleep in this lesson..surely the condensation will just form behind the carpet/foam/etc whaever it is your sticking to the roof? so essentially you are catching drips? rather than solving the problem... the foam will eventually smell of stagnent water? I dont know...

on that one.. the way the foam works from what i can tell is that aslong as you glue the stuff straight to the roof and dont leave an air gap then when the warmer air below the roof rises instead of touching a freezing cold tin roof it touches the foam, which i believe adjusts to the temperature quicker than the tin and therefore isnt a cold surface for the air to condense against.


Ever thought of adding insulation, it is pretty cheap at the moment and you can just staple the stuff on:

11 for 8mx60cm
Thermal Insulation Foil Roll 600mmx8m - Loft Insulation - Insulation -Building Materials - Wickes (http://www.wickes.co.uk/thermal-insulation-foil-roll-600mmx8m/invt/210022/?source=123_74)

Expanding foam for drafts will obvious help as well,

no the problem with this other than that i hate the stuff, it's itchy as hell and i dont want to lose that much head room is how do i staple it to a tin roof?

wilfy
12-12-2012, 12:36 AM
i'm now thinking of using something like this

Polystyrene 25mmx1200x2.4m - Polystyrene Insulation - Insulation -Building Materials - Wickes (http://www.wickes.co.uk/polystyrene-25mmx1200x24m/invt/210823/)

i'm still not sure if i need to shape something like that to the contours of the roof or not, preferably i'd sheet the whole roof in that, fill any gaps to the sides with expanding foam and line the joins with that foil tape, but i'm not sure if condensaton will still build up in the air gap or not?? could anyone possibly comment?

GEOFFREY
12-12-2012, 01:17 AM
Wilfy, I have just finished (well nearly, there'l still be bits to finish in 5 years time according to the fuhrer) building my house and have had many conversations with the building inspector about "warm roof construction. I think that is probably the best solution,but 50mm foam would be better. the problem is water vapour which will pass through almost anything, so needs to be completely sealed on the warm side. Any moisture the that does penetrate the internal vapour barrier will condense either in the insulation(interstitial) or on the underside of the roof sheet.

The sprayed foam insualtion would almost certainly provide both the insulation, vapour barrier, seal any voids and sticks like ----, however this is probably quite expensive.

Good luck, G

wilfy
12-12-2012, 09:34 AM
i wish i had the cash to do a better job i really do, but the house isnt even ours so i'm reluctant to spend anymore money on the garage than i need to. all i need to do is stop the condensation like i said before i can deal with myself being cold in there and if i have to stick a pet mat or something in the control box for the cnc when its done i can cope with that.

for me now that polystyrene seems to be the best option and going off the price i may even cut strips to go in the deepere parts of the roof before i stick on full sheets over the top, this will reduce the air gap up there and also provide 50mm insulation in places

GEOFFREY
12-12-2012, 10:14 AM
Wilfy,point taken about the expense. Afriend of mine insulated his workshop (small factory) by visiting all the local electrical stores and collecting (did them a favour) all the unwanted polystyrne packaging (washing machines, etc.).He then broke it up into small pieces and sealed it into black (non biodegradable) bin bags making like pillows. This worked for him, but was a lot of work, but more importantly virtually no cost.Reards,G

D.C.
12-12-2012, 11:29 AM
i'm now thinking of using something like this

Polystyrene 25mmx1200x2.4m - Polystyrene Insulation - Insulation -Building Materials - Wickes (http://www.wickes.co.uk/polystyrene-25mmx1200x24m/invt/210823/)

i'm still not sure if i need to shape something like that to the contours of the roof or not, preferably i'd sheet the whole roof in that, fill any gaps to the sides with expanding foam and line the joins with that foil tape, but i'm not sure if condensaton will still build up in the air gap or not?? could anyone possibly comment?

You didn't bother clicking the link I posted did you? :beaten:

The stuff I linked is basically a thick pastic bubble wrap type stuff coated with shiny thermal film. It is cheaper per sqm than the stuff you are looking at and performs better as insulation.

If you read the comments, people have used this exact stuff for your exact situation and seem to be pleased with the result. ;)

wilfy
12-12-2012, 02:11 PM
You didn't bother clicking the link I posted did you? :beaten:

The stuff I linked is basically a thick pastic bubble wrap type stuff coated with shiny thermal film. It is cheaper per sqm than the stuff you are looking at and performs better as insulation.

If you read the comments, people have used this exact stuff for your exact situation and seem to be pleased with the result. ;)

i'll be honest i looked at the text and thought it was normal loft insulation.. doh... but my point still stands, how do i get it to stick to the tin roof??

i've sorted something now anyway, expanding foam round the sides to seal it off, polystyrene siliconed to the roof and foil tape to seal the joins and flashing tape to cover the screws on the roof

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martin54
12-12-2012, 02:29 PM
Sorry Wilfy but I think you have just hidden the problem rather than dealing with it & over time you will have problems. You have all those voids that will continue to collect condensation above the insulation you have fitted, it still has to go somewhere so will find it's way through the insulation or just rot it from the inside.

wilfy
12-12-2012, 02:48 PM
condensation how i understand it is warm air rising, hitting something colder than it cooling the air rapidly forcing it to turn to water....

the way i understand how this will now work is the air will rise sure, but instead of hitting cold tin it will hit warm insulation and not condense hence not acctual condensation.


to back up my theory even more i've had an oil rad in the garage over the last 2 nights and got rid of the condensation completely.. but that is a 1.1kw oil rad left on for 48 hours to get to that stage... this insulation should mean i only need to put the heater on for a few hours over night to keep the chill off the insulation

wilfy
12-12-2012, 04:14 PM
what are the chances this roof will take my weight if i lie down and use a board to spread the weight??

7619

kingcreaky
12-12-2012, 05:59 PM
What a man-cave! I know many that would be very jelous.

I bet you, you could JUMP up and down on it and be completely fine. Its the same stuff or very similar to mine which is literally as strong as an ox! still think you will eventually end up going back to it this job taking the sheets off, boarding and felting. then re-fitting them.. you sure there is no run-off? your neighbours looks like its sloped!. even if its not you could just re-do the joists?

wilfy
12-12-2012, 07:46 PM
the problem is with re-doing the roof is it's not my house.. we private rent.. everything i've done if needs be can be ripped off and put back to standard, i've already trialed the flashing on the roof... got my blow torch out up there and warmed the panels up stuck it down over the screws that are leaking IN water and they certainly are not letting any water in through the top.. as for condensation inside.. well i'm condensation free for over 36 hours now and 24 of that was before i stuck the insulation in there.

here is what i intend to use to support my weight up there 2moro so i can reach the bits i cant do off ladders (those screws go right the way across) i've stood in the middle on it 2nite and bounced up and down on it and it's not touching the floor.. the widest bits will be bearing down on the concrete so no stress on the tin.

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and here is the panels up stuck to the roof for most part of the day, expanding foam in the gaps and foil tape in the joins, all i need to do is do the smaller cuts as i've been working on multipull things and not had chance to do them, like i said before though it's already warmer in there, started the day off when fan heater and rad to take the chill off the room and now it's maintaining the temp with the oil rad turned to about 3/4 and there is still loads of gaps i need to fill

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ptjw7uk
12-12-2012, 08:53 PM
If you are worried about the condensation above the insulation open the voids to the outside air, the water vapour will equalise then.
From the picture of the roof it will be easy to open as the roof overhange the garage sides.

peter

kingcreaky
12-12-2012, 09:16 PM
your quite right then, you just have to make the most of what you got... if you still get condensation you'll have to have a re-think. it must be possible one way or another...

either way... there will be less drips this way :-D

just be careful of fires now though (not that you werent before), because that stuff looks like it will make good napalm!!

top work chap. keep it up... you'll be out there in your speedos before you know it.

wilfy
13-12-2012, 01:18 PM
so... am i stupid? clever? crazy??

7629

ptjw7uk
13-12-2012, 03:00 PM
As long as you spread the weight then it should be ok. Thats how I put the steel sheets on my garage!

Peter

GEOFFREY
13-12-2012, 05:05 PM
You'r looking good Wilfy, get down off that roof, go into your warm dry workshop and show us some of what you make.

Regards, Geoff.

wilfy
13-12-2012, 06:49 PM
the only thing i am making in there at the minute is a simple cabinet for our living room.. in fact it's made i'm just slowly working on my least favourite thing which is painting the damn thing.. 2 coats of primer done


heres the plan for it i drew up in sketchup

7632

the thing on the left is a bubble tube i am making for my boys, but that got put on hold as i would like to cut pieces for it from my own machine

and with regards to me being cold on the roof, it's supprising what difference an extra t-shirt makes... oh and add in the fact i was using a blow torch up there to warm the tin up so the flashing would stick

wilfy
13-12-2012, 08:53 PM
here is a fancy pano picture of the garage as it stands in its messy state.. i cant wait to get that box painted and reclaim some of my space.

7634

kingcreaky
13-12-2012, 10:44 PM
just wondered if you are out there tonight on this cold eve... its like -3 here in leicester, imagine its colder up there in northern land? im on baby duty anyway so cant be in the workshop. but as all your new gear has arrived I bet your in there with the door closed? :-D

wilfy
13-12-2012, 10:50 PM
i was out there spraying some expanding foam in some gaps, frost outside, me nice and warm inside the garage with nothing but the oil rad on... while it's not perfect out there, it's certainly a nice place to work in.

the problem with my new gear arriving is i have nothing to do with it at the moment.. i need to find a steel supplier who doesnt wanna charge me the earth

kingcreaky
13-12-2012, 11:27 PM
same here; although perhaps one step ahead of you. my steel bits are now done. but waiting on aluminium for gantry. was hoping it would be here today but not till Monday now :-( . cant do any more til it arrives. Try a different approach. go to a steel fabrication company and ask if they can supply you some steel for cash. I bet its cheaper than going to a steel supplier... thats what i did.

wilfy
13-12-2012, 11:54 PM
well i've got a friend on the case he has a contact through work who he thinks can get me what i need. however i found a place today on the net that will supply full 7.6mtr lengths of both types of box section i need.. and the 50 x 25 x 3 is a good price 2 lengths delivered for 72 but the 60 x 40 is a big jump and i honestly only need around 2.5mtrs so i'm getting some quotes from ebay guys as we speak

wilfy
15-12-2012, 12:35 AM
well we've had a big enough downpour to prove my roof is now leak proof.. and i've only had the oil rad on 3/4's all day and it's keeping quite warm in there now.. i'm acctually really happy with my garage now

Web Goblin
16-12-2012, 09:41 PM
I finished fitting my little wood/coal stove today. Its had it first little fire to start conditioning it. Nice and toasty warm.

wilfy
16-12-2012, 09:57 PM
i been in mine all afternoon. finnished the smaller cuts of polystyrene, the roof is now completly insulated. had a right big tidy up, cleared up so much space, filled 2 big rubble sacks full of stuff for the tip so with a bit of time left i decided to go ruin all of my effort of cleaning and literally cover the whole friggin garage in primer dust from sanding that cabinet down.. serves me right for being so fussy about getting a smooth finnish i suppose.
7654

on a good note though it means i can gloss it now which means by the end of the week i'll have it out the garage in the living room, which not only makes me happy but also the mrs, then it's on to the bubble tube get that out the way, then my computer desk... it never ends does it

Ross77
24-12-2012, 09:45 PM
Hi, glad to see you have temporarily solved the dripping in your workshop:wink:. I know I'm a bit late to the thread but I might be able to explain the points that others have mentioned so you realise the problems. Its not intended as critisisim of what you have done and I mean no offence just thought it might help you or others in the future.

Starting at the beginning...........
Air can hold water, as moisture, but the amount is dependant on its temperature. Warm air can hold more water than cold air. As its temperature drops there becomes a point when it cant hold any water at all and it is separated out on to whatever surface it can (dew point). This has nothing to do with the temperature of the surface or type of material. So as Jonathan said below 5 deg condensation will be present, therefore the temp needs to be kept above this temp.

This then poses the next problem that the warmer air can now hold more water and as it rises and touches the cold steel roof it is cooled and releases the water, as its the roof it then drops back down. Heating a room with cold surfaces will not fix the problem, in fact the more you heat the room the more moisture it can hold and the worse the condensation on the steel roof will be.

so there are 2 types of condensation:
1. a lower limit dew point that affects unheated spaces
2. cold surfaces in heated rooms
The two solutions are to remove all the cold surfaces or remove the water
Removing the cold surfaces will only stop the excessive build-up of water on them (in the case of the roof, stop the dripping). The water is still present and will find its way to the next cold surface. For this option to work you either need to use a breather membrane to allow the water through but not get back and then provide a means of escape , or stop the water getting through ie, vapour barrier. Using a vapour barrier keeps all the moisture in the room so ventilation will be required. Removing cold surfaces doesnt solve the problem it just moves it elsewhere
Prevention is always better than cure so removing the water has to be the best and far easier solution, heat the room to just above the and get a dehumidifier. Problem solved and its transferable to your next workshop.

This is a basic and simplified description and there are a few extra points if dealing with a domestic house but in the context of a garage/workshop its fine.

I do understand your need for a quick fix and if you are not there long then you might not have any problems with moisture build up between the polystyrene. Im not going to dwell on the fire risk but it might be worth setting fire to one of the off cuts. The stuff I have seen gives off thick black smoke and goes molten, not good if it on the ceiling!

All the best

wilfy
24-12-2012, 09:57 PM
thanks very much for a detailed response, i'm not quite finished with the roof but i am sealing the gaps between the the styrene sheets with that foil backed stuff.

there is in my opinion plenty of ventilation in the garage at the moment with the fix i have provided and i've kept the oil radiator in there coming on every 4 hours or so randomly throughout the day and night and it's keeping it warm enough in there for me to walk in wearing t-shirts and for me to be happy to work in there.

as it happens it hasnt been cold really since i've done the fix, but i do suspect there is the odd place where the condensation builds up, but as it stands i'm happier than i was 2 months ago and i'm pretty certain all my stuff is going to stay dry.. it has also motivated me to clear a mass of jobs i'd been putting off.

i've always said i want to make some homebrew in the garage but knowing how critical the temp needs to be i'm a bit concerned about starting that up yet and as such i've been thinking a lot about temperature controling a blow heater/other heater in to an enclosure where i will store the brew and have that controlled by an arduino.. i could certainly adapt the same arduino to also have another control for the overall temp of the room aswell. i'm not sure if i will follow through with this or infact how much time it will take up but it's certainly something that is on my mind most days, so i'll see how it goes.

thanks again though for a very in depth reply even though i have already made my fix it's something i wont forgot for the future

Ross77
24-12-2012, 10:55 PM
Yeah sorry, I do tend to on a bit......just spent two years converting a barn so quite familiar with it all, dehumidifier has been worth its weight in gold.

Now home brew and Arduino sound much more interesting.

wilfy
24-12-2012, 11:08 PM
haha flicking through some old pictures i've acctually found a picture of what i had for a shed before hand.. i hope this puts in to perspective the difference between what i previously had and what i have now.. and hopefully you will understand why i feel like i have a palace for a workshop..

7747

under that counter is a washing machine on the right, on the left is all my tools above is a build i worked on at the time and about that height again is the roof... that it

Ross77
24-12-2012, 11:30 PM
At the risk of going off post, is that four 8" subs? (given that a brick is 215mm) nice. Takes me back a bit. spend 5 years fitting car alarms and audio. For your car or a customer?

wilfy
25-12-2012, 09:40 PM
the build above was a replacement build for my 50 year old dad's party bus/7 seater taxi if you have a flick through this link https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.170407555366.246919.704100366&type=1&l=15e0acb389 you will see it pretty much from start to finish including some really bad fabrication techniques, i've come a long way since then and have a strong desire to do something similar again.

the build consisted of 2 x 10" screens, billions of lights and 4 x 8" mtx coaxials and in the boot was a removable box with 4 x 12" cheapy fusion subwoofers.. it was mental, people used to request getting picked up by my dad instead of other drivers.

wilfy
25-12-2012, 09:40 PM
oh and the garage got a new edition today :D:D:D
7751

wilfy
18-02-2013, 06:40 PM
just to further update this as i've looked at it for reference it's still super dry in here, i dont actually have to leave the oil rad on overnight, just come in flick it on, within 10 minutes of me working i'm stripping down to a t-shirt and turning it off while i potter about.

i'm really glad i've gone cheap on this as not only has it worked, but there is talk of us moving house now as we might need adaptations for one of my little ones and they wont do them in a private rented house