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GEOFFREY
27-12-2012, 02:25 PM
I have been reading through the various build logs, and comments about various designs, and it would seem to me that many of the comments about shortcommings are very similar.

Would it not be a good idea to design a basic machine incorporating the best features with the idea of encouraging more people to try their own build?

I realize that many people will say a standard design would not suit their needs, but I have read several times that the first machine is a starter and will be improved on their next project.

After a basic design concept, ie size, table top, floorstanding, materials to cut etc. I feel sure that the most experienced members could all comment on exactly what the machine should be and come up with a design better than anything else on the market--remember strike cnc!!

The machine could carry smart union flag decals(or other sponsors decals) and be built from supplied DXF? drawings.

A parts list could be supplied and some machined parts could be offered for sale by experienced site members

Any thoughts, G.

i2i
27-12-2012, 02:33 PM
great idea, but this lot will never agree on anything.:friendly_wink:

Mad Professor
27-12-2012, 02:46 PM
Round One, FIGHT! :yahoo:

Sorry could not help it.

wilfy
27-12-2012, 02:56 PM
goes to find the popcorn :yahoo:

D.C.
27-12-2012, 03:16 PM
EPOXY!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Tenson
27-12-2012, 03:26 PM
MDF, so it's cheap and easy to make.

JAZZCNC
27-12-2012, 03:47 PM
great idea, but this lot will never agree on anything.:friendly_wink:

Sorry dont agree with that.!!. . .:joker:

JAZZCNC
27-12-2012, 03:52 PM
EPOXY!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.


MDF, so it's cheap and easy to make.


See why it won't work.? Already had 2 hard to work with or unsuitable material suggestions and we haven't even gone near design yet . . lol

GEOFFREY
27-12-2012, 05:08 PM
Thats a pity Jazz, I thought you would have some of the best ideas!!G

wilfy
27-12-2012, 05:38 PM
MDF, so it's cheap and easy to make.

easy.. maybe, accurate.. depends how much effort you put in. if you are talking about torsion boxes in every place there needs support your talking a lot of effort, is it cheaper maybe.. one sheet of 18mm mdf is £17, 25mm £24 so yes even if you go for 25mm it seems quite cheap. how big are you going to have to make torsion boxes to make sure the strength is there and in turn how much bigger are you going to have to order your screws and rails to achieve the cutting area you want? i plan to make my machine using no more than £100 worth of steel... to me that seems cheap, i havn't even looked at alu but that fact i'm using steel is allowing me to have quite decent amount of cutting area from smallish screws compared to if you made an mdf machine. also there are plenty of designs out there already that use wood/mdf if it was really that good everyones machines in this forum would be made from it, i only know of 2 guys who have made from wood/mdf and one of them ran away from the forum after i presume all the disagreements everytime he mentioned doing something from wood as an alternative

talking of cutting area.. this is what decides the design.. you cant really be universal as everyones needs for cutting area are different.

JAZZCNC
27-12-2012, 05:45 PM
Thats a pity Jazz, I thought you would have some of the best ideas!!G

Yes I probably could contribute Geoff but being totally honest with you I do an awful lot of that in front and behind the scenes already. The number of people who contact me and want all the information, right down to cut material dimensions, screw lengths etc spoon feeding is getting a bit silly now.!

I don't have any problems with offering component advise or pointing out potential design flaws and recommendations so they don't take the wrong path or buy wrong stuff. Or like I do often for folks knocking up model or 2 to give an Idea or heads-up but I won't spoon feed folks full designs to the last detail and they should expect to learn the very basics at least. . . . . If they want it bad enough they'll take the time to learn if not then bugger em.! . . No time for free loaders.!!

Problem with this idea is that there's " Horse's for course's" and every body wants just one horse to ride all courses and win each race.!!

Define the parameters and backing the winner of one race gets much easier. Winning all races is completely different and more complicated set of parameters.

martin54
27-12-2012, 09:15 PM
I actually think things are pretty good the way they are at the moment but that's obviously just my own opinion. At present people are required to think a bit for themselves & if they are not prepared to do that then they get no where which is probably where they deserve to be. Sorry if that is a bit blunt but you learn nothing if everything is done for you & at present people are certainly encouraged when they show a bit of effort themselves.
It's a steep learning curve but right from the beginning you start to learn just by reading the build logs of others, using software to design your machine & the help & support you get from others on the site.
There are already loads of designs available for free or to buy so why create another one & all the problems that go with that. From what I have seen in the short time I have been here there are quite a few experienced members who could already design & build machines that are far better than some of what is available already. There are already members who will help with cutting parts for anyone who asks.

wilfy
27-12-2012, 09:21 PM
It's a steep learning curve but right from the beginning you start to learn just by reading the build logs of others

to an extent thats very true you do learn a lot, but i find a lot of the logs i read get so far like basicly to the point of where they have enough help, and then that person never updates the log to show the machine finished and also the accuracy of the work coming from said machine.. yes its a generalisation and it's not aimed at everyone but there are certainly a lot of build logs that leave you wondering if they ever got finished

kingcreaky
27-12-2012, 09:59 PM
I had a very similar idea; except like a fixed. or 'sticky' post. named 'read this before you think about building' which goes over all the standard repetative questions everybody asks. Like the drawbacks to unsupported rails; the drawbacks to 'cheap' electronics kits off ebay. The limitations of using mdf structurally. maybe with links to other build logs where mistakes have been made a new purchases have been required.
But this idea solves the same issue and so long as the requirements are clear I think arguments could be limited. For example.. 'a cheap machine, that can can only mdf or soft woods, with a 60x30cm cutting area for under £400
Worst case scenario, is it could be sold at the end. (I dont doubt it will cover its costs) il contribute...

JAZZCNC
27-12-2012, 10:03 PM
to an extent thats very true you do learn a lot, but i find a lot of the logs i read get so far like basicly to the point of where they have enough help, and then that person never updates the log to show the machine finished and also the accuracy of the work coming from said machine.. yes its a generalisation and it's not aimed at everyone but there are certainly a lot of build logs that leave you wondering if they ever got finished

I often follow up folks I've helped who go quiet and You'd be surprised how many don't actually get finished due to circumstances and general life getting in the way. Thou lots are just having too much fun and can't be arsed to update.

wilfy
27-12-2012, 10:17 PM
I often follow up folks I've helped who go quiet and You'd be surprised how many don't actually get finished due to circumstances and general life getting in the way. Thou lots are just having too much fun and can't be arsed to update.

i dont deny that for one minute and i'm not saying it's a bad thing either at the end of the day you make the machine, it works, you forget to take pictures, you then get busy and spend more time designing parts to cut on your cnc and either dont have the time or forget that you didnt finish the build log.. i have to say i'm guilty of this from when i started making homebrew and for that reason i want to stick around here after my machine is finished and try to help people not make the same everyday mistakes, but also to showcase my build as best as possible to give hope to people that it can be done.

one thing i've never found though jazz is your build log :playful: :whistle:

Iwant1
27-12-2012, 10:36 PM
one thing i've never found though jazz is your build log :playful: :whistle:

LOL, when I first started searching build logs, I tried to find his log too because when he helps so many with designs errors, you would think his machine will be the almighty. but as you read on about him helping using his machine as examples, you get a mental image of this ali cutting beast, with a stair lift beam gantry, steel box section frame, large motors with pulleys and long belts , interchangeable mdf, ply and ali beds, oh and 5mm pitch screws. Sounds like a strong machine with an unconventional gantry. Put our imaginations to rest. Pics please.

Adil

JAZZCNC
27-12-2012, 10:59 PM
one thing i've never found though jazz is your build log :playful: :whistle:

Thats because it got removed with my first BAN . . .:black_eyed:

Ricardoco
27-12-2012, 11:11 PM
Thats because it got removed with my first BAN . . .:black_eyed: LMFAO.... Such a naughty boy!!!! you mean they didn't just edit out the bits that were against the rules...lol, or maybe your design was against the rules... not conventional enough... Sorry Couldn't resist..

JAZZCNC
27-12-2012, 11:21 PM
LOL, when I first started searching build logs, I tried to find his log too because when he helps so many with designs errors, you would think his machine will be the almighty. but as you read on about him helping using his machine as examples, you get a mental image of this ali cutting beast, with a stair lift beam gantry, steel box section frame, large motors with pulleys and long belts , interchangeable mdf, ply and ali beds, oh and 5mm pitch screws. Sounds like a strong machine with an unconventional gantry. Put our imaginations to rest. Pics please.

NO NO NO NO you don't want to see my beast it's certainly a case of "Do Has I say not what I Did" and it's rough ready engineering at it's best. To be honest it's on it's last legs and in need of some TLC which it will get this year and possibly get turned into a plasma cutter.?

Here's a pic of my son in early days doing his "I'm a little tea pot" routine. .:highly_amused:

kingcreaky
28-12-2012, 12:10 AM
Thats because it got removed with my first BAN . . .:black_eyed:

pmsl :D very funny

WandrinAndy
28-12-2012, 12:27 AM
Here's a pic of my son in early days doing his "I'm a little tea pot" routine. .

Scan that pic carefully Adil.... He's maybe secreting the real critical ingredients. Such as can be learnt from that single picture.... I can now see that he is using a rigid connection to the planet to dampen resonance!

And whereas we've now seen a horizontal picture, I wouldn't be surprised if he was using it vertically!!

I've been up here long enough now to almost understand the Yorkshire natives ;-)

wilfy
28-12-2012, 12:44 AM
Scan that pic carefully Adil.... He's maybe secreting the real critical ingredients. Such as can be learnt from that single picture.... I can now see that he is using a rigid connection to the planet to dampen resonance!

And whereas we've now seen a horizontal picture, I wouldn't be surprised if he was using it vertically!!

I've been up here long enough now to almost understand the Yorkshire natives ;-)

Vertical.3gp - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjJ88n-ynx0) :barbershop_quartet_

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 01:03 AM
And whereas we've now seen a horizontal picture, I wouldn't be surprised if he was using it vertically!!

Yes it's now vertical and has been for over 10 months now and working better than it ever did when horizontal. Cutters are lasting longer and can cut deeper due to far less chip re-cutting. Don't need nearly has much blown air either and less mess. . :triumphant:

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 01:03 AM
The object was not to stop people from thinking for themselves, rather to encourage people to be able to produce a starter machine that has been expertly designed to eliminate some of the more common pitfalls, rather than help dig them out afterwards!!!

To promote discussion about general requirements for such a machine listing the pros and cons of various parameters and consider the cost/benefit of each idea. I am not suggesting that one size fits all, only that for a starter machine the requirement is fairly universal.

Yes, there are already enough designs and kits already available, but from many comments on this site it would appear that none of them are that good.

Many of the constructive comments made on build logs would seem to be about rail and gantry short comings, and most are generally fairly similar. I am sure we have enough expertise on this site to overcome most of these problems

If the first involvement with cnc leads to a successful machine build, surely that is better than a perhaps dubious purchase from elsewhere?

The machine design is only the fist step on what is a steep learning curve, the actual build, wiring cad cam and machining still have to follow.

Not everybody wants to start with a small (hopefully inexpensive) machine, but many do.

Not everybody with an interest in making things has an engineering background, the idea was to make it easier for one to get started and once bitten by the cnc bug who knows what could develop? G.

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 01:05 AM
Vertical.3gp - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjJ88n-ynx0) :barbershop_quartet_

Hey I've got one like that . .:whistle:

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 01:15 AM
Whats the secret ingredient Jazz-that sheet of mdf lurking in the background? G

Iwant1
28-12-2012, 01:16 AM
Hey I've got one like that . .:whistle:

What happens when you need those axle stands to work on your motor? lol. Seriously how come you didn't chop half the frame off to bring it closer to the wall.

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 02:14 AM
Not everybody wants to start with a small (hopefully inexpensive) machine, but many do.


Not everybody with an interest in making things has an engineering background, the idea was to make it easier for one to get started and once bitten by the cnc bug who knows what could develop? G.

These 2 comments are just a few reasons why what you suggest will be so very hard to achieve.? But I hear what your saying and agree on the "Bug biting" to develop.

That said to get the ball rolling lets define clear parameters.!!

Materials to cut:
Size:
Desktop or Floor standing:
Budget:

Knowing these will define the design and materials to use plus equipment levels and skills required to achieve.

Then let the fun begin.!!

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 02:34 AM
Whats the secret ingredient Jazz-that sheet of mdf lurking in the background? G

Yep thats one of THE most important ingredient Geoff.?? . . . It keeps the fire going.!

Seriously now.!! An amusing now but scary then thing happened with that MDF.? It was used for the bed initially and the first Job was the obligatory Mach3 Road runner drawn with a pencil held in 1" square off-cut of Ali with hole drilled in end and pencil jammed in. It performed flawlessly and after many other doodles I was satisfied and set about some fine tuning and checking of the motors with dial indicator.
So while using the MDI (manual data input) I told the Z axis to go down 10mm.!! . . So I thought.?? Nope some how an extra zero slipped in and off it went on it's way 100mm down.!!! . . . . In the blink of an eye it punched a perfect 1" Sq thru 2 x 18mm mdf sheets and the Z axis didn't flinch just did has it was told. .:cower:

Swarfing
28-12-2012, 02:36 AM
I cant help myself so will jump in as well........

Other things to specify will need to be minimum tools required. Materials must be readily available from local suppliers where possible. It may also be worth speaking with the usual suppliers to price up a budget kit of parts ( motors, drivers and ballscrews etc).

for people without access to lager tools like lathes and mills will need workarounds to achieve the same goal???

At the end of the day we have been here before and it did not really go anywhere. for it to work it will need more than anything some dedication and for people to agree to disagree and keep it simple at all times. they can make the fancy bits when they have had the experience of going through a build. Hopefully they will have a machine at the end of it to do it.

There my 2p's worth

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 02:39 AM
What happens when you need those axle stands to work on your motor? lol. Seriously how come you didn't chop half the frame off to bring it closer to the wall.

It was just a test to see if it would work before I hacked the frame up.!!. . . . . It's still in the exact same place with the same Axle stands and worked so well from the get-go I left it for when I got nothing to do.!! . . . . I'm still waiting.:whistle:

Ricardoco
28-12-2012, 02:46 AM
............... In the blink of an eye it punched a perfect 1" Sq thru 2 x 18mm mdf sheets and the Z axis didn't flinch just did has it was told. .:cower:OMG... Your face when it started-> :culpability: and when it finished ->:yahoo: That's funny, its nice to know I'm not the only one who messes up every now and then.... Rick

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 03:08 AM
Thanks Jazz, thats what I was hoping to hear!!

All parameters are up for discussion and can be collated (time limited?) to find the most popular needs. Remember this is a starter machine.

Materials to cut - should include Plastics,MDF plywood, hardwood, PCB material and aluminium (Ithink that probably rules out MDF construction).

Size - typical working area should be to optimise standard sheet (8'x4') use, so something like 300x400, 400x600 or 600x800

Desktop or floor standing - Desktop is perhaps prefered by most diyers due to space availability.

Budget - For hardware - up to 1K ish to include all rails, screws drives etc, and a spindle. As most people will not be VAT registered this should include VAT.

The design should also consider (small machine only) the use of fixed or moving table, and if the Z travel should be enough to incorporate a 4th axis later.

Whilst I have suggested the spindle price should be included, the type of spindle could vary according to the cutting requirements and could be a project.

To date this idea has not had much of a positive reaction, but lets give it a try.

As you said Jazz -let the fun begin (NOT let the sparks fly!). G

Another parameter to discuss -frame materials - steel/ally, sections or extrusions. G

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 03:26 AM
2e0poz, glad you jumped in. As has already been said there will be some people on the site who are prepared to carry out some machining.

You are quite right that it would mean some serious dedication by some (probably the usual few who know what they are talking about - lets me out).

As this site has many clever and assertive people some may have to compromise a bit on what may be quite good ideas.

Your comment aboutkeeping it simple is absolutely vital and hopefully if they end up with a good machine - who knows what they could do?

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 03:31 AM
The computor will always do as it is told (unlike the wife!) the trick is to tell the right thing. Impressive tho isn't it. G

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Materials to cut - should include Plastics,MDF plywood, hardwood, PCB material and aluminium (Ithink that probably rules out MDF construction).

Here comes the "Horses for courses".!! My experience shows me the best most successful machines are the ones optimised for one main purpose. At 1K working with spindle Etc then cutting Aluminium with any serious intent and surviving the experience can't be done successfully. Best kept to Woods, plastics, PCB, Composites etc.


Size - typical working area should be to optimise standard sheet (8'x4') use, so something like 300x400, 400x600 or 600x800

Agree on sheet sizing and 8th sheet would be the optimal for desktop machine under 1K. So 650x650mm.


Desktop or floor standing - Desktop is perhaps prefered by most diyers due to space availability.

If we want space saving how about Vertical.?


Another parameter to discuss -frame materials - steel/ally, sections or extrusions. G

I'll say straight away that I'm taking NO further part in the discussion if MDF becomes part of the design other than for a Sacrificial Bed.!!

Size and budget will mostly determine Material used. Extrusion is expensive with the main reason for using being ease of use and this often needs expensive fasteners which will make 1K target harder to achieve.
Steel box section is far cheaper but requires more tools and for ease of use welding helps greatly but up's the skill level slightly (it isn't difficult at this level)

Swarfing
28-12-2012, 01:04 PM
Jazz you correct, in the law of Paul "NO MDF shall be of use other than keeping the workshop warm upon fire". Keeping the cost down does not mean to skimp on the right material. All you will end doing is loosing money in the long run.

Choices are Steel or Aluminium.

I did play around with some solid plastic decking, would make a great bed :-)

martin54
28-12-2012, 01:15 PM
See I already disagree with something Jazz has said lol, welding does up the skill level & the basic tools required unless a welder is to be included in the budget. Don't agree that it's easy at this level, yes for some people learning to weld may have been easy but that doesn't mean that it is for everyone, even the thought that this basic introduction machine needs to be welded is probably enough to put a lot of people off.

Swarfing
28-12-2012, 01:53 PM
This goes back to offering alternative methods like angle iron to make brackets with nuts and bolts? Decent saw and a pillar drill are the basic requirements for any build. Master the art of a centre punch and people should be able to build quite an accurate machine.

If you don't have a drill and saw then an allowance £200 would get added to the budget straight away. The reality is if can only build a budget machine right if you have the budget in the first place. problem is with budget builds also comes patience, many people don't want to wait.

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 03:14 PM
This goes back to offering alternative methods like angle iron to make brackets with nuts and bolts? Decent saw and a pillar drill are the basic requirements for any build. Master the art of a centre punch and people should be able to build quite an accurate machine.

Spot on 2eOpoz but in answer to Martin the investment of a £60 Arc welder is small compared to the alternatives of using So called easier materials like Alu profile. The extra in bolts, Angled steel and broken drill bits alone will cost nearly £60.
The investment in time learning to weld is not that great and can be achieved in just a few hours. End of the day where only talking small short welds here, not much more than tack welding really and if someone can't learn to weld to that level in half a day then I severely doubt there chances of building any machine that requires precision drilling and patience.?

alex wight
28-12-2012, 03:51 PM
I,m watching this post with great interest, and so far it is interesting. I,m building a machine, with guidance from a member on here (not sure if he wants naming). I,ve made a start to it, with a friend, but due to him being busy and me wanting a wee bit more in my machine, its down to guidance and myself. I now have the arc welder in place, (i,m not a welder), but cant wait to get going with it. I have an engineering background, so this doesnt phase me. I,ve went on the net for tutorials, but i,ve not learned anything new. My machine is being made out of 60x60x3mm steel, and i,ll put up a build, once my workshop is up and running.

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 04:01 PM
Jazz, As has been stated the idea would be to keep it simple, very rigid and straight forward to build. I am aware that cutting ally would up the anti, but it also vastly increases the scope of the machine, and would be useful for a "future" Monster build.

How does vertical work? material hold, retaining cutout components etc., would it really save any space? - I suspect not. best keep it simple, which probably
means conventional, although its good to think outside the box.

IMHO the best choice for the frame would be hot-rolled section, either steel or ally (both of which can be of welded or bolted construction, although ally welding requires more skill). How does a braced channel section compare with box or RHS for strength and rigidity?, this may be easier to make stronger bolted connections - just thinking out loud.

Yes it is difficult at this level, but that is probably why most available kits etc. don't quite cut the mustard. Also the idea behind this suggested project.

This machine is intended to be an improvement on anything currently available so I don't think MDF comes into the equation. I am sure some people have achieved some success with MDF, but do not feel that it is suitable for this particular project.G

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 04:09 PM
Well done Alex, I look forward to hearing how you get on with the welding. If we do get a good design sorted, I will buy a welder and try to learn to weld.G.

alex wight
28-12-2012, 04:11 PM
cheers geoffrey, the reason behind it, is that i want to build ONE machine that will stand the test of time. As i say i,ll get my build on line once i get the workshop completed.

martin54
28-12-2012, 05:01 PM
Jazz you've missed my point, lots of people view welding as a bit of a black art, those that do weld know it is not so but you won't convince many when your talking about constructing a machine where it's such an integral part of the build. Arc is probably the hardest to learn as well especially with a cheap machine where it is difficult to set current correctly.
Not for one minute suggesting that it is not an option but if you are looking to cater to a wide audience then the downside has to be taken into account. Same with cutting ally, is the idea to produce an accurate machine that is better than what is currently available at a reasonable DIY price or a machine that is fit for business use which obviously ups the budget.

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 05:20 PM
Jazz, As has been stated the idea would be to keep it simple, very rigid and straight forward to build. I am aware that cutting ally would up the anti, but it also vastly increases the scope of the machine, and would be useful for a "future" Monster build.

Geoff your falling into the "Bridge too far" trap.!! . . . Theres cutting Ali and cutting it correctly and I'm not guessing when I say it can't be done complete and working with spindle for under 1K and keep the simple to build Ideal. If this is really a design requirement then I'm out has I don't have time to waste on what I know can't be done.

Vertical works just the same has horizontal regards work holding and part cutout.? All material needs clamping even when horizontal, esp the cut part. You wouldn't leave a cut part unfastened so it could be dragged back into the cutter so you'd clamp,stick,tab etc to hold in place which applies just same when vertical.
The space saving is considerable when the machine size rise's but even a small machine could be large space saving when hung off a spare wall thats just holding up a roof.

Look round your workshop and find a wall with enough space for slightly deeper than your typical Kitchen double top cupboard and thats your CNC 600x600 machine.
Now look again and find a space on the floor or bench for 1sq meter with space in front or at side to stand and load/operate machine and see the difference.? . . . . What was you saying about no space saving.!!

Oh and 90% the chips fall away so you can sell that great big Vac needed before and get a nice small one for the bit thats left.! Put a simple frame with doors on front and it's clean and quite with minimal impact on workshop.

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 06:14 PM
Jazz, I take your point about the trap. I never intended a design that was specifically to cut ally, ally was at the end of my list of materials to cut. The machine would be primarily to cut softer materials, but if capable of cutting ally occasionaly using light cuts it would be a bonus. If that is not possible it would not be the end of the world and as I have already said I suspect ally would need a different spindle. - Don't drop out Jazz -your input is highly valued.

I usually cut MDF,ply and pcb matrerial using my newly built vacuum table and I suspect that I would struggle to keep loose pieces in position, hence my comments about the vertical machine.

I am not aware of a small vertical machine, so perhaps something like that would make it really stand out from the crowd. Gravity chip clearance sounds
interesting.

It would be nice to hear a few more people commenting on the feasability and and specification of the machine.

I was not wanting to specify the design myself, only to get some discussion going and then to come up with something.

Even the 1k ish price was not a given, just a figure that I feel would generate some interest if achievable. G.

wilfy
28-12-2012, 06:32 PM
Jazz, I take your point about the trap. I never intended a design that was specifically to cut ally, ally was at the end of my list of materials to cut. The machine would be primarily to cut softer materials, but if capable of cutting ally occasionaly using light cuts it would be a bonus. If that is not possible it would not be the end of the world and as I have already said I suspect ally would need a different spindle. - Don't drop out Jazz -your input is highly valued.

I usually cut MDF,ply and pcb matrerial using my newly built vacuum table and I suspect that I would struggle to keep loose pieces in position, hence my comments about the vertical machine.

I am not aware of a small vertical machine, so perhaps something like that would make it really stand out from the crowd. Gravity chip clearance sounds
interesting.

It would be nice to hear a few more people commenting on the feasability and and specification of the machine.

I was not wanting to specify the design myself, only to get some discussion going and then to come up with something.

Even the 1k ish price was not a given, just a figure that I feel would generate some interest if achievable. G.


did you watch the video i linked of jazz's vertical machine?
Vertical.3gp - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjJ88n-ynx0)

Washout
28-12-2012, 06:38 PM
I can't help thinking that what is needed is not so much a spoon fed full design, but more a decision tree against desired design parameters e.g if you want machine with more than an 1100mm X axis then you need 1610 ballscrews to avoid whipping, if you want to cut aluminium (say up to 6082) then you need to make the frame from extrusions of XxYmm , steel section etc not MDF and so on. Most of the questions I see on here, including my own, are based around trying to make the right decisions and then cost the machine build (time of build is another factor).

The next step is refining the initial build based on feedback (my own benefitted greatly from Jazz, Jonathan, Irving and others), which only comes from being able to leverage real world experiemce on how a machine should perform.

Of course once built there is the added factor of being able to program the thing correctly to avoid broken end mills etc (I'm on that learning curve myself).

If I can find some time I could start the ball rolling, but I have limited knowledge myself, so wiser/more experienced heads than myself would need to fill in the gaps.

Just a thought......


Chris

D.C.
28-12-2012, 06:56 PM
The more I think about it the more I'm with Jazz tbh in thinking there is not much point to a mycnc machine. There are already loads of machines as kits with plans and forums for this kit or that, but the great thing about this site is the fact that people are prepared to help people that want something else.

I've seen lots of videos of people cutting aluminium with dremels mounted to MDF/acrylic and even bits old pipe turned into a cnc machine and people claiming that counts as 'cutting aluminium' but there are also enough honest people that will admit their mdf machine shook it self apart because they tried to cut alu to deep etc.

So what counts in your mind as 'cutting alu', is it engraving jewllery sized pieces or taking out 20 cubic inches of material a minute to an accuracy of 0.0001 inches with a 2m by 2m by 2m cutting area?

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 06:59 PM
Thanks Wilfy looks good. the AZTEC calendar is brilliant.

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 07:05 PM
The idea was for a smallish starter machine that is better than what is currently on offer and would resolve the flexibity problems that seem to be common. G.

D.C.
28-12-2012, 07:08 PM
I can't help thinking that what is needed is not so much a spoon fed full design, but more a decision tree against desired design parameters e.g if you want machine with more than an 1100mm X axis then you need 1610 ballscrews to avoid whipping, if you want to cut aluminium (say up to 6082) then you need to make the frame from extrusions of XxYmm , steel section etc not MDF and so on

If I can find some time I could start the ball rolling, but I have limited knowledge myself,
Chris

I was thinking something similar.

What would also be good is if people that have recently finished their build or are currently designing/building a machine would not only do a build log but an 'after build debrief', so that you can compare the sketchup pics & photos of the machine to an actual rough bill of materials at the end (including tools used) and videos of a few standard cuts to see the real performance.

So for example if we come up with half a dozen test files doing a mayan calender in mdf, plunging into a piece of thick alu, a block of foam, cut out and engrave a piece of acrylic etc. If with have a few videos & photos & speed/time details of different machines doing the exact same jobs it would be much easier for people to form a realistic idea of what they need.

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 07:15 PM
Nice idea, I'd love a copy of the calendar G code, or is writing it the test (in which case I fail). G.

D.C.
28-12-2012, 07:34 PM
Nice idea, I'd love a copy of the calendar G code, or is writing it the test (in which case I fail). G.

The aztec PDF is at the bottom of the first page:

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/general-cad-cam-machine-control/3889-400-megs-files-dxf.html

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 07:47 PM
Nice idea, I'd love a copy of the calendar G code, or is writing it the test (in which case I fail). G.


No problem but it's a 5Mb file compressed and 17Mb uncompressed. 757,000 lines of code. So best PM me your email.

Jonathan
28-12-2012, 09:25 PM
To save Jazz sending it to everyone, I've just put his copy on my webserver here (http://jbcnc.co.uk/aztec_aluminium.rar). If that's a problem I'll remove it straight away. You'll find plenty of other versions on CNCzone. Bit out of date now though :mushroom:

I've not really got anything on-topic to add. I think if anyone hasn't got the small amount of patience required to work out how to make the machine from reading existing build logs, on this site and others, then they're not going to gain much more from a set of plans which are unlikely to meet their specific requirements.

As I've said previously, you can cut aluminium with a screwdriver or knife, so to say a particular CNC router can cut aluminium is not saying much. For me to say a machine 'can cut aluminium', I reckon it would have to be capable of reliably cutting with a 6mm single flute cutter at 1mm per pass. That's nothing special or difficult to achieve, but enough to do odd jobs without getting too bored. The next thing to do is work out what machine stiffness that requires and design to achieve that...

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 09:45 PM
To save Jazz sending it to everyone, I've just put his copy on my webserver here (http://jbcnc.co.uk/aztec_aluminium.rar). If that's a problem I'll remove it straight away. You'll find plenty of other versions on CNCzone. Bit out of date now though :mushroom:

No problem with me.
I've actually got a version coded for 60Deg cutter if anyone wants it. Don't try using a 60Deg with this code it will come out all wrong and look shite.

With the CNCzone if just downloading G-code be aware it will most likely be for large sizes of 16" or 24" has that was the original sizes. Try to get the DXF if you want different sizes and be prepared to maybe do some touching up.

GEOFFREY
28-12-2012, 11:26 PM
Thanks Jazz and Johnathon, I would have to use a 3.175 shank (so 3mm or 3.175) ENGRAVING bit, have various Deg points. I would also like to
have a smaller dia, say 4" or 6", but don't know if I would be able to handle or clean up that amount of code. I would certainly have to drip feed
it, and would certainly like a try. G.

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 11:46 PM
That code is for 6" and use's 6mm 90deg bit. If you like I can knock you code up for 3.175 and the Deg of choice.?

Best PM to save sending this thread off course.

wilfy
28-12-2012, 11:48 PM
That code is for 6" and use's 6mm 90deg bit. If you like I can knock you code up for 3.175 and the Deg of choice.?

Best PM to save sending this thread off course.

this guy is just too generous... must be all that christmas ale!

JAZZCNC
28-12-2012, 11:59 PM
this guy is just too generous... must be all that christmas ale!

Hardly touched a drop Wilfy had that bloody Noro virus and it's put me right off food or drinking. Suppose thats a good thing out of a bad one has I'm fat bastard anyway. . lol

Has for knocking up code well thats no big deal and takes just a few mins.!

wilfy
29-12-2012, 12:22 AM
see when you start talking about code and toolpaths i get images of this marathon session of programming that takes longer than the machine does to cut

JAZZCNC
29-12-2012, 12:47 AM
see when you start talking about code and toolpaths i get images of this marathon session of programming that takes longer than the machine does to cut

Well yes and no really. The drawing of the parts can be complex and time consuming but the process of actually getting code is easy really.

Toolpaths are the individual operations that make up the whole Code or G-code file. Changing parameters like cutter diameter for each tool-path is easy and takes seconds. The Cam software then just spits out new code to account for the new settings.

In the case of the Aztec calender It's just one large V-carving toolpath so literally less than a minute and new g-code file is produced. If needs re-sizing then it's 2-3mins.

m.marino
29-12-2012, 10:22 AM
JAZZ is completely correct there. What takes time and really makes code generation easy is setting up your CAM program properly and making sure the post processor is set up for best practices on the machine. It sounds easy but takes time and a good bit of learning. Once set up, then it is simply import the model and run through the logarithm for that program (some area easier then others, all require set up). Back to the subject of discussion though.

A cnc router that cuts ally needs to be rather rigid to do the job with any kind of finish or speed (unless you want it running 18 hrs for a simple project). Let us look at some material issues and see why some many of us who are working with machines say no to too wide a range of use in a machine (though it can be done).

Material Issues:

MDF: when cutting this crap it creates huge amounts of TOXIC swarf that must be dealt with so you don't breath the crap (Unless you like killing yourself). The dust will try to get everywhere and takes forever to settle out of the air if an extractor set up is not used (dust shoe).

Softwoods: WILL dull carbide quickly, this is due to the high sap content of many softwoods and or grain structure. There are additional reasons that folks will most likely correct me on but this is one place where HSS-E rules the house not only in cleanness of cut but also finish left on the wood. There are exceptions in the higher end router bit and you pay for it.

Plastics: I really should break this down into sub areas but I am way to lazy right now and have other work needing done. Plastics come in a huge range of cutting requirements and all need the rigidity to get the best finish (any TIR will show in finished product). Most of them require care as are toxic to inhale and some you don't want the dust on your skin. Many are abrasive (Acrylic) and can eat your end mills faster then you think (there is a good reason to use coated). All of them have their issues and requirements on machining and all have limits at what they are good for (don't tap HDPE with anything less then M6 unless you plan on tapping deep). Some cut easier then softwoods and some you might as well be cutting ally.

Hardwoods: Bring a whole host of issues from grain direction to hardness to caustic. While more forgiving then milling metal they have all their own issues with many being rather TOXIC to inhale so back to the dust shoe issue again (one of the reasons that JAZZ like vertical machines as some of these issues go bye bye).

Ally: requires rigidity. For best finish requires reasonable DOC (deeper then 1 mm, unless finish surfacing pass and even then spindle power and rigidity are huge issues). Dry milling can be done at the right F&S's but best with coolant (now comes the issue of dealing with that, which I am not touching here). Spindle power above 1.5Kw highly recommended (though can be done with 1Kw, not the best for the motor).

Exotics: This includes PCB's, carbon GRP/FRP and a host of others. I have yet to meet one that is not TOXIC and most are rather nasty TOXIC and will KILL you if you breath the crap and some can go through your skin. All are moderately to heavily caustic and require coated cutters for best finish.

Other metals: a wide range of requirements that someone else can touch on as it is way beyond what a basic DIY machine of the less then £1K grp should ever be thinking about it being able to cut reasonably (I specifically exclude conversions of older equipment to CNC as you can get old mills and lathes that will do the job nicely and convert them to CNC).

NOW, take all the above and go look up cutwell and a few other sites to get a good grounding in F&S's and you will see why there are horses for courses and why the large gantry routers that due cut metal are huge and extremely rigid (surfacing mill I helped build in real work had a 15Kw Spindle and it's sole job was to surface bedding plates for building machines on ( it had a tool changer with only 10 tools) and had splash guards to three feet above the cutting area all the way around.

So step back and seriously think what you really want down and you can see that while an all rounder can be designed and built, it will have limits and only truly work for a few folks. Space and size as stated earlier are another serious issue.

I designed my machine and JAZZ built it with material help from more then a few folks. I use that machine in my business, it is continuing to be upgraded along the way for safety and increased output ability.

Just my two cents which is limited but has some practical experience behind it.

Michael

GEOFFREY
29-12-2012, 07:52 PM
Hi, thank you, that is a most informative post. I think however that you are missing the point. When I made the original post it was about a small general purpose machine to help some people (generally diyers) get into cnc machine building and cnc machining. Once started (and they still have to build the machine), learn how to operate it etc. some people may well progress to building bigger better more specialist machines. Everyone starts somewhere, and surely if we can ensure that they have the option to build something designed with the input from knowledgeable experts (who may themselves wasted hard earned cash on the way) that can only be good. Just from reading posts on this site many have bought inferior kits/machines. I wonder how many are out there that are unaware of this site, and have have an unfinished or unused machine simply because it does not "do what it says on the tin", and probably never will.

The idea of this project was certainly not intended to discourage people from designing and building their own purpose made made machine, indeed I believe this is the best way to go, however for those with perhaps a little less self confidence, building a good solid starter machine could be the start of something special. G.

D.C.
29-12-2012, 09:08 PM
TOXIC

So basically what you are saying is if you want lungs in your old age, pick another hobby?

Good job I'm not smoking a cigar and sitting under an asbestos roof, oh wait a minute... :(

Lee Roberts
29-12-2012, 10:12 PM
Thats because it got removed with my first BAN . . .:black_eyed:

No it never, you left the site/forum and this was at the time we were discussing if or not banning you was the right action to take, it was decided that it wasn’t.

Sorry don’t mean to open any old wounds but I’d hate for people to get the wrong idea because of untruths and rumours about me or anyone else, when an account gets deleted threads or posts by that user become "orphaned" this gives us a problem at the admin level because they cant be managed correctly, if memory serves me right i think one of the forum updates meant that "guest posts, as they become" would be lost.

I cant remember now as much water has passed us, but that was either true for your threads/posts at the time or true when we moved from one forum software to the current, like i said above though we dont allow guest posting because of many reason's and this is how they have always been managed.

:thumsup:

Regarding the topic of this thread, HiltonSteve started a thread some time ago MDF CNC Router plans / parts for home build beginners (http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/diy-cnc-machine-building/1907-mdf-cnc-router-plans-parts-home-build-beginners.html?highlight=)

where the discussion went down a similar path, maybe worth a read for some of you just to get an idea of what was said, i'm more than happy to facilitate you in doing a collaboration, let me know what you need - an "Open Source" forum added maybe?, some modderating access to manage and maintain the project?

Would be good to see this come to fruition :encouragement:

.Me

John S
29-12-2012, 10:42 PM
Regarding the topic of this thread, HiltonSteve started a thread some time ago MDF CNC Router plans / parts for home build beginners (http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/diy-cnc-machine-building/1907-mdf-cnc-router-plans-parts-home-build-beginners.html?highlight=)

where the discussion went down a similar path, maybe worth a read for some of you just to get an idea of what was said, i'm more than happy to facilitate you in doing a collaboration, let me know what you need - an "Open Source" forum added maybe?, some modderating access to manage and maintain the project?

Would be good to see this come to fruition :encouragement:

.Me

That one never got anywhere and neither will this one.

Don't want to be a wet squib over this but seen it over and over again where a group build is called for.
7 years ago, may be longer a Yahoo forum was setup to design the perfect lathe.

So far nothing has been determined as no one can decide on a design that suits all.

Because everyone here has a different budget, different materials will come into play. Some will only be able to afford MDF but the consensus so far is that it won't be good enough because it won't cut alloy.

Why the fixation with cutting alloy ? I thought these were supposed to be routers not bed milling machines ?

Web Goblin
29-12-2012, 10:52 PM
I think some people seem to look at cutting alloy as a type of benchmark for the machine. Maybe thinking that if it can cut alloy then it will do everything else they need. just my thoughts though.

HankMcSpank
29-12-2012, 11:00 PM
Yes, what is the fixation with cutting alloy....far better to build a machine specifically spec'ed to cut material you'll be working with 99% of the time (for me acrylic & copper clad FR4) - the other 1% of my cutting needs can be farmed out to those who are fixated with their machines cutting alloy ;-)

wilfy
29-12-2012, 11:02 PM
Yes, what is the fixation with cutting alloy....far better to build a machine specifically spec'ed to cut material you'll be working with 99% of the time (for me acrylic & copper clad FR4) - the other 1% of my cutting needs can be farmed out to those who are fixated with their machines cutting alloy ;-)

you do know a previous post back there somewhere said if your cutting plastic you might aswell be cutting ally.... to quote
Some cut easier then softwoods and some you might as well be cutting ally.

GEOFFREY
29-12-2012, 11:15 PM
Exactly, Thankyou. iWe are talking about a small robust starter project. If a machine that is primarily intended to cut softer materials is capable of ocasionally cutting ally, most people would indeed think it would cut almost anything that they would need to cut. G.

Jonathan
29-12-2012, 11:21 PM
I agree with what John S has said - this wont get anywhere due to conflicting requirements. One could split the project into designing a set of machines, each aimed at different requirements, but even then people will want something different, or wont be able to source the materials, or tools... etc

The reason I'm most interested in making machines that can cut aluminium is that any machine which is strong enough to cut wood and plastic with respectable speed and accuracy is by default also strong enough to cut aluminium, not efficiently (the milling machine will always win there), but enough to be useful. Unless you make the thing from MDF and do what we might call the classic mistakes, it's hard to make a small machine which isn't capable of cutting aluminium reasonably efficiently.

Lee Roberts
29-12-2012, 11:26 PM
Acknowledge and understood John, it’s a shame really because something could come of it I’m sure.

Regarding the consensus thing, I see this being the aim allot and I think sometimes people (no one in particular) may forget that not everyone is looking to do the same kind of machining.

That said could it work if there was like two projects on the go, so one for people looking to work with wood and another for a machine aimed at machining alloy.

That’s got me thinking now though it or not a machine designed to work on alloy would also lend very well to working on wood, so that machine should command the authority and set the standard, from that machine people could then innovate on the design and deviate from the “plans” so to speak, like they do with the diy plans for building a machine i.e. a Rockcliff machine.

What we need is someone who is willing to invest the time and to take the lead on this, while we could all give our input as to what we think something should be, ultimately that person (Jazz) would need to have the final word and say “yes/no/it needs to be” and from that this could move forward.

I know not everyone is going to agree, but unless strong arguments are made against something “the people” would have to just agree to disagree for the sake of the project, with the option to design their own “version” if you like, if they feel that strongly about the argument.

I assisted a user this week who needed support, after I got them fixed up and posting they expressed to me that “There is something cool about discussing these topics with Europeans, especially British. There is something about the history and culture of machinery that a European perspective adds to”.

If I’m honest, I think I refuse to believe that something like this can’t be done to a success and who am I to say what that success will be but when you look at the standard of the machines coming out of the build logs, it’s clear to see.

.Me

Lee Roberts
29-12-2012, 11:29 PM
Yes, what is the fixation with cutting alloy....far better to build a machine specifically spec'ed to cut material you'll be working with 99% of the time (for me acrylic & copper clad FR4) - the other 1% of my cutting needs can be farmed out to those who are fixated with their machines cutting alloy ;-)

Exactly, I’ve got just the thing to facilitate that coming up ;-)

Sorry you guys type faster than me so have said more or less what i am trying to say in my post above, i have to wait for spell checker to catch up :).

.ME

GEOFFREY
30-12-2012, 12:09 AM
How about it Jazz -would you be prepared to give it a go? G.

martin54
30-12-2012, 12:32 AM
I still don't think it's something that's needed & can't see why some people seem so obsessed with it. Seen things like this destroy good forums before because of the bickering it causes & you don't want to go losing any of your most experienced members. Don't think it will do a lot to grow the forum either, people will just download the plans & get on with building themselves a machine, no need to ask any questions or think about the best design because you already have it.

Swarfing
30-12-2012, 12:46 AM
lee what you say is true. I would have to say that if anybody looking at the plans has real issue, then they obviously know better and should just do their own thing anyway? In general people want to make sure they are doing things right so the forum will always be here to help. Like the MM forum maybe a numbeing syem for all that are complete would work well :-)..........Lee get the official stickers out with a MYCNCUK logo at hand??????

Swarfing
30-12-2012, 12:50 AM
Lee

Maybe you could set up a section where people could advertise kits of parts? I'm sure some forum members would be willing to make these? this would help these not so fortunate to have the kit t do the necessary. This way the site would be catering for all types of builders????

Lee Roberts
30-12-2012, 02:19 AM
I still don't think it's something that's needed & can't see why some people seem so obsessed with it. Seen things like this destroy good forums before because of the bickering it causes & you don't want to go losing any of your most experienced members. Don't think it will do a lot to grow the forum either, people will just download the plans & get on with building themselves a machine, no need to ask any questions or think about the best design because you already have it.

I acknowledge what your saying Martin but dont think it would lead to the forum losing its momentum, i think if anything it could raise the standards of what's being discussed.


lee what you say is true. I would have to say that if anybody looking at the plans has real issue, then they obviously know better and should just do their own thing anyway? In general people want to make sure they are doing things right so the forum will always be here to help. Like the MM forum maybe a numbeing syem for all that are complete would work well :-)..........Lee get the official stickers out with a MYCNCUK logo at hand??????

I actually think that there is more to this than is first realised, there is allot of things I can do/plan to do that overall is really going push this to the next level. Let me explain, I/we obviously see time and time again people asking the same questions, I take my hat off to people like Jazz and Jonathan for showing such stamina when it comes to replying to more or less same questions all the time. I also know how boring and frustrating it is for them to keep doing this.

Some of you know what I’m about to say already...The plan is to have Articles, Reviews, Tutorials and so on, as these areas of the site start to get populated allot of what will be in each section will be perfect for people coming in as newbie’s. We are going to have a series called “The Basics”, these articles will give people the information they need and a springboard to get them going in the right direction. There is a lot more to all that and other ideas and so on but what it leads me to say is that:

I think allot of “how we move this cnc thing and this forum forward” is relying on me to deliver on what I keep talking about, SOOOO many things will become better for everyone once things really start to take shape with what I’ve got in mind. I’m stressed with it because I know how desperately some of these things are needed to just “make things better/easier” for everyone, the problem I’ve got is its all down to me, believe me I am trying. I’m just really busy and in a difficult position in my personal life to spend the kind of time I need to work on the many projects and ideas I’ve got, but it’s ok because it’s a marathon for me not a sprint, allot of my “vision” for things to come is still young, this forum is only what 4-5 years old now and allot of what is in my ideas has actually come from discussions like these and because of that the my vision has evolved and this introduces new things to think about and decide on, which have a knock on effect to everything else.

Yep, i wouldnt have any problem endorsing? or branding somthing if it would be what you guys would like. (i think that's what you mean't?)


Lee Maybe you could set up a section where people could advertise kits of parts? I'm sure some forum members would be willing to make these? this would help these not so fortunate to have the kit t do the necessary. This way the site would be catering for all types of builders????

Yea no problem, although we already have the Market Place section of forums for doing that kind of thing. Hehe, maybe now is a good time to talk about freelancemachinist.com (http://freelancemachinist.com)....Anyway I’m starting to waffle, it’s getting late and I’m desperate to get back to coding up what will be the “doc” for the chat app I’m working on.

.Me

GEOFFREY
30-12-2012, 03:35 AM
Martin, as you know I am fairly new to this site and only came up with this suggestion because I thought it would be helpful to new and inexperienced cnc wannabies. To build a good little machine and then be able to make some lovely things with it must be very satisfying (I know how I felt when after dozens of hours trying to sort my machine conversion out I was at last able to make something).

I was, and still am thrilled to think that I am now able to have an idea, design, draw then make it. Fantastic - and that from a now 69 year old. I am only sorry that I did not discover cnc years earlier.

Hopefully "bickering" will not enter the equation. I do not see why healthy discussion should harm this site or lead experienced members leaving.

Of course there will some differences of opinion about things, but at the end of the day if we can end up producing something that will encourage new blood then surely that would be a good thing. If this gets off the ground, not everybody will have their own way, somebody will have to consider the various comments and then make their decision - its no good trying to design a machine by committee - and we can then perhaps have the best starter machine available. Without doubt there may be some really good ideas that do not get incorporated, but those ideas will remain on this forum, and may well be used by members in some future project of their own.

Yes, you are right, some people may just download plans and go their own way, but I think that once (site membership might be a requirement to get the plans)
they have joined the site and realized what help is available they too could be stricken by the cnc bug. G.

martin54
30-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Geofrey, I'm new to the site as well but have seen this sort of thing tried before & never successfully because it does cause a lot of problems. Biggest problem with the internet is that there is no body language & no tone so what one person says is miss interpreted by another & before you know it things have got out of hand & it's handbags at dawn lol. At present a lot of people find this site after they have made a mistake & are looking for solutions to existing problems not because they have any kind of fascination with cnc machines. I include myself in that number because I had already started to build a machine from a book I bought on the internet about building a low cost machine. I don't believe this project will alter that & I do believe you can give people to much, neither of which is good for the development of the site. The common questions will still get asked by new members who are keen to learn, people don't bother to read or use search options on websites, the answers to most of the common questions are already on the site, many of them as a sticky post so easier to find yet still people ask the questions.
The development of the site as Lee spoke about above in my view would be a far better way to go, have the discussions about build then whoever is running it edit it to take out all the irrelevant comments that you always get as people go off track & then stick them in a section for new people to read. As I say a lot of it is all ready there so this could also be brought in to the same section.

I;m not against this sort of thing as some people seem to think I am it's just that these days I tend to be a bit cynical & someone has to point out the downside to any sort of venture however good it may seem.
If it ends up being a big success then I will be the first person to hold my hand up & say I was wrong, quite happy for that to happen as it means that the forum will have grown, not just registered members but active members which is what you really want to flourish.

JAZZCNC
30-12-2012, 09:29 PM
Sorry had a long hard think about this and it won't work has some are expecting.

If I can help in some small ways then I will but I'm not prepared to take a lead has to me it's an hiding to nothing and will end up with just a small few doing all the work and others just leeching, while others will just stab and poke for the sake of it.

So I'm declaring my self out.!!

Good luck.

John S
30-12-2012, 09:44 PM
I'm with Jazz for reasons I mentioned before in post #70

Like Jazz I do a lot of work behind the scenes, that won't change but working 1:1 you get to know who's dedicated and who's wanting a free ride.

i2i
30-12-2012, 09:51 PM
lets get down to the bare facts.

customer a wants a router 4ft x 4ft to cut ally.
customer b wants an engraver 150mm x 150mm to make fancy pens.
customer c wants to make wooden plaques in a variety of woods and sizes.

You're never going to please everyone, but a basic no frills scaleable router is an easy proposition.

Maybe an established cnc retailer (cough, cough), can supply the range of parts needed to make this router at the right price, and customers a, b and c can get a set of scaleable plans and the parts to bolt everything together.

True you can get cheap routers from the far east, but nobody wants them. Let's be honest they're not very good, they have poor metal, bad machining, crap electronics, and worse than anything else piss poor after sales service.


The members on here like to build so lets give them something to build

GEOFFREY
31-12-2012, 01:12 AM
Hi, I am currently on holiday in Devon and will be returning home towards the end of the week. I would like some time to consider all the comments made on this site with regards this project on my return. G.

John S
01-01-2013, 03:21 PM
Right I vote Jonathon takes the reigns for the following reasons.

[1] He knows it all.

[2] He's under employed so has loads of time.

[3] He knows all the cheap deals and will share them at the same price he pays.

[4] Prepared to work for nothing.

Swarfing
01-01-2013, 03:29 PM
I second that!

i2i
01-01-2013, 03:30 PM
ok that's sorted then...:cheerful:

JAZZCNC
01-01-2013, 04:04 PM
I concur captain. .:encouragement:

Swarfing
01-01-2013, 09:36 PM
Jonathan such a splendid fellow for volunteering like that :yahoo:

Lee Roberts
01-01-2013, 10:00 PM
Sorry had a long hard think about this and it won't work has some are expecting.

If I can help in some small ways then I will but I'm not prepared to take a lead has to me it's an hiding to nothing and will end up with just a small few doing all the work and others just leeching, while others will just stab and poke for the sake of it.

So I'm declaring my self out.!!

Good luck.

Leeching what though, what happened to "power to the people" and this being the peoples forum. Not everyone is going to be able to contribute in that way but they will be able to benefit from the end product, i thought that was the whole idea of a community project - for the people. We cant expect everyone to have somthing to give, we can expect them to need to take though?

Isnt stabbing and poking generally what happens anyway and when/once any good things from it get exhausted they get passed by or over looked for the greater good?


I'm with Jazz for reasons I mentioned before in post #70

Like Jazz I do a lot of work behind the scenes, that won't change but working 1:1 you get to know who's dedicated and who's wanting a free ride.

A free ride of/on what though, see above...


Right I vote Jonathon takes the reigns for the following reasons.

[1] He knows it all.

[2] He's under employed so has loads of time.

[3] He knows all the cheap deals and will share them at the same price he pays.

[4] Prepared to work for nothing.

Dont know if Jonathon could or would be willing to take it on, he's definitely not under employed and from what i can understand is chasing the clock at times due to furthering his education and living away while he dose that. Cheap deals is a good point though and would suite the project as its about getting somthing done not making money. Humm number 4, other than the first prototype parts and so on i didnt think this was going to be somthing that would be sold? Surly the project manager would assign jobs evenly to make it fair and fun for all involved?

.Me

GEOFFREY
05-01-2013, 12:46 PM
Hi all, and happy new year. Have just returned from Devon and have been catching up on some posts. Waiting to hear if Johnathon will pick up the gauntlet (it's not meant to be a poison chalice Johnathon). Good luck J if you do decide to run with it!!! G.

Nugget
28-06-2013, 11:43 PM
Mycncuk project sounds a fine idea. With regards to the of details of a plan and its consequences i.e. not willing to spoon feed and spec might not be suitable for the application. I think the reason why you want a ready design is that the reason for a DIY CNC router/mill is the cost and experimentation with design adds cost. I’m not sure about the worker/freeloader paradigm. As the worker did you generate all the knowledge you use? Are we not all in receipt of the ‘wealth of ages’ from our dead ancestors that we did not earn, pay for or deserve but merely inherited? (sorry for the pomposity).

Design wise I get the impression you either need several categories of machine or perhaps one design that is very scalable. Presumably the design approach is to define your requirements first then define a specification and from that sketch a few designs. Presumably if site users are prepared to define all possible requirements, perhaps from that there are sub groupings. I would like to know myself what the minimum spec for various types of tasks are e.g. what strength of frame/gantry, stepper torque and spindle power/rpm are required for say aluminium sheet cutting (can general rules of thumb be used to simplify the process). My guess at user requirements plus my own are:
Functions:3D recessed shapes, engraving, cutting sheets, etc.
Materials: Copper clad board, aluminium alloy(series? 1000, etc, tempering?), brass, copper, wood(hard wood, software, composite MDF/ply, carbon and glass composites, plastics (acrylic, etc), etc.

Swarfing
29-06-2013, 12:59 AM
Nugget i think you need to read the whole thread.....Welcome by the way.

GEOFFREY
29-06-2013, 01:18 AM
Nugget i think you need to read the whole thread.....Welcome by the way.

I agree. I would also like to say that the idea was to design a "starter" machine that would encourage "would be cncer's" to take
their first steps into the wonderful world of cnc. G.

Spedley
30-06-2013, 11:37 PM
I think the purpose of a starter machine is to:
1) provide a machine which is known to be fully compatible and working.
2) be cost effective
3) require minimal skill level

Suppliers, materials and software need to be specified to guarantee compatibility.
The machine should not be over-specced and all parts should be fully utilised.
Precision parts should be bought off the shelf with the only fabrication requiring basic hand tools where possible.

Like so many people state on here - you need to specify exactly what your goals are before you can hone in on the solution.

John S
30-06-2013, 11:57 PM
I don't think it matters what your goals are, there will always be too many of them for a group project.

The thread is 6 months old now and so far has got nowhere and sorry to say this but it never will.

Only way a machine will get built is if one person decides to build what 'he' thinks is right and offers it for sale.
Then all the cheap arsed vultures will gather and pull holes in it and reckon it's too expensive and you could do it cheaper.

However missing the point that they are still weld to the fence, not sat on it.

GEOFFREY
01-07-2013, 12:33 AM
I don't think it matters what your goals are, there will always be too many of them for a group project.

The thread is 6 months old now and so far has got nowhere and sorry to say this but it never will.

Only way a machine will get built is if one person decides to build what 'he' thinks is right and offers it for sale.
Then all the cheap arsed vultures will gather and pull holes in it and reckon it's too expensive and you could do it cheaper.

However missing the point that they are still weld to the fence, not sat on it.

John, I agree with most of your sentiments, and the idea was never to try to "design a machine by committee", merely to come up with a set of general parameters for a starter machine and then for one person to "run" with it. There are certainly enough people on this forum that could do that if they wanted to.

Of course there would be critics - does that really matter? This thread has been dormant for the last six months just because
of such comments, and I only reintroduced it because there have been several posts from people asking about about small starter machines/kits etc. G.

Jonathan
01-07-2013, 08:57 AM
merely to come up with a set of general parameters for a starter machine

So what parameters would you suggest? Lets see if 1% or 2% of people agree with them...


Only way a machine will get built is if one person decides to build what 'he' thinks is right and offers it for sale.

Tempting...

I will post the drawings for a medium size machine I've designed soon, but I doubt anyone would use them since you can't make it without a milling machine & CNC router & lathe, which is likely to be a problem with any general design people come up with here.

Spedley
01-07-2013, 12:45 PM
If you can minimise and simplify the pieces requiring milling/turning then these could be supplied by people on the forum. I often reads posts on here where people are asking for parts cut, why not pre-defined parts for the cnc machine?

Lee Roberts
01-07-2013, 01:16 PM
If you can minimise and simplify the pieces requiring milling/turning then these could be supplied by people on the forum. I often reads posts on here where people are asking for parts cut, why not pre-defined parts for the cnc machine?

Exactly my thoughts re "by the people for the people", once we know what parts need making and the demand, some people maybe happy to do like a batch of the same part with something like a minimum amount, it dosnt need to be done for free but could be done with the intension of covering costs and to help people, rather than looking to turn a profit.

I dont think offering yet another commercial machine is the way to go, (open source, with a little help from my friends) seems like the right way of describing it.

.Me

GEOFFREY
02-07-2013, 01:36 AM
At least we do seem to be getting a few positive ideas - maybe it will exceed "J's" 1 - 2%. I am looking forward to seeing your new design Jonathan, but do suspect that it will fall outside of the "starter" category. When I started this thread I knew that it would be contraversial, but had hoped that one of the more experienced members might be prepared to give it a go. the basic parameters were discussed some time ago, but were not finalised. The idea is to open up discussion about the requirements of a smallish robust uncomplicated "starter" machine and then hope to find that a project manager/coordinator could make the final design decisions and decide on materials suppliers etc. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that with the mathematical prowess of people like Irving and Jonathan, engineering skills of people like Jazz and John S and the dogged determination of people like myself we could soon have the best machine plan/kit available. In mentioning names I hope that I have not offended anybody, I was only referring to "people like" as I am aware that the forum has many other highly skilled and knowledgeable members. G

palmerlad
10-11-2013, 06:39 PM
At least we do seem to be getting a few positive ideas - maybe it will exceed "J's" 1 - 2%. I am looking forward to seeing your new design Jonathan, but do suspect that it will fall outside of the "starter" category. When I started this thread I knew that it would be contraversial, but had hoped that one of the more experienced members might be prepared to give it a go. the basic parameters were discussed some time ago, but were not finalised. The idea is to open up discussion about the requirements of a smallish robust uncomplicated "starter" machine and then hope to find that a project manager/coordinator could make the final design decisions and decide on materials suppliers etc. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that with the mathematical prowess of people like Irving and Jonathan, engineering skills of people like Jazz and John S and the dogged determination of people like myself we could soon have the best machine plan/kit available. In mentioning names I hope that I have not offended anybody, I was only referring to "people like" as I am aware that the forum has many other highly skilled and knowledgeable members. G


Being brand brand new to this site and to the world of CNC I am enjoying all the discussion and getting caught up. I just have a little suggestion for spec for the 'peoples' machine. Perhaps take the popular cheap 'Ebay' machine claimed specs as a starting point and build/design based on that. They seem to be a popular size for people while there of course will always be differences in what people want.

Thank you for the great forum.

RoboCutter
05-12-2013, 05:54 PM
My company has started making the V-slot profile that is extremely popular for 'starter' machines. I will be advertising this profile on this forum in the New Year as well as other items that my company supplies.

If there is a real interest in pursuing the 'How about a mycncuk cnc router project?' then I am able to offer a reasonable discount to any MYCNCUK forum member that buys a machine via the forum organisers providing that there are enough people interested. I can offer 400x300, 400x600 or 900x600 frame sizes with all necessary parts to assemble the frame. Motors and electrics etc can be sourced from many, many places so it does not seem right to offer a full off the shelf machine as even beginners to this CNC game have their own ideas of what motors, steppers, programs etc they want to use.

I sincerely hope that this post is taken in the manner it is meant.... to help with the idea of developing a MYCNCUK machine that is aimed at those who are new or fairly new to CNC which is who I believe the topic was originally aimed at and who want to machine 'light' materials. I have attached pictures as an example of what is on offer. Please note. These machines are aimed at users who will machine light materials such as MDF, Plywood, Acrylics, Delrin (acetal) and thin aluminium sheet materials, they are NOT aimed at those people who want absolute precision when machining a block of metal or similar.

I am ONLY interested in supplying these machines IF the powers that be (on this topic especially) and at MYCNCUK are also on board with the project and 'they' can organise member interest to realise a MYCNCUK machine that can be sold to members at a discount from the real price AND they do not mind me writing this post.

If I have broken any rules then please excuse my writing and remove or edit the post as is seen fit.

109331093410935

Richard
17-02-2014, 01:50 AM
Thought I'd bump this thread....

Very interesting reading. I found it while googling around looking for reasons why not to waste £600 on an ebay 3040!

One suggestion regarding capabilities of a machine, why not take a leaf out of the 3d printer book and make the machine capable of machining it's own parts.

That way your first project on completion can be making a set of bits to sell to someone else...

CharlesJenkinson
17-02-2014, 04:30 PM
I was also a bit disappointed to see this concept had stalled, when it was one of the first threads I'd read after arriving. I do however appreciate why, I think, in terms of the variability there is in end machine design. My thought was that a decision logic tree could be developed that highlighted the decisions to be made in coming up with a design, with the specific details being decided by each person. This is essentially what people who design anything do, at all points in the process. it is of course a potentially large undertaking, and still impossible to teach the process of how people fill in the specific details. However, there are some things that come up time and again in design review on here, and these are the areas where some tutorial decision logic wouldn't go amiss. I.e. steel frame design, z axis design, gantry design, etc. ...and now I'm rambling myself into an impossible corner.

Richard
17-02-2014, 05:05 PM
I think one approach would be to assume it's a machine for beginners and therefore cannot require access to a mill or lathe to make.

If machined parts are required, there should be a source for ready made parts, ideally as I mentioned above, parts that can be made on the same machine.

Maybe another approach is to start with a Chinese ebay machine and provide a step by step guide to upgrading and retro fitting it... Maybe that create a narrower scope and prevent the impossible search for a 'prefect' machine that suits everyone.

Jonathan
17-02-2014, 06:47 PM
I do however appreciate why, I think, in terms of the variability there is in end machine design. My thought was that a decision logic tree could be developed that highlighted the decisions to be made in coming up with a design, with the specific details being decided by each person.

Whilst I can see that that method could help a lot of people, it would restrict peoples thinking. In a way I'd rather let people think for themselves and even post the odd wacky idea in build logs, as just occasionally you see a good design idea which we can all develop and benefit from. A generic design procedure can detract from innovation.


Maybe another approach is to start with a Chinese ebay machine and provide a step by step guide to upgrading and retro fitting it...

That may not make so much sense from an economic point of view.

CharlesJenkinson
17-02-2014, 07:39 PM
The high level design logic tree would be a bit of work, but I don't think it would starve creativity. There's always place for macro and micro evolution in solving specific problems. The truth is that real world design and iteration is dirty and organic, it is not by wrote, which kind of backs up your point. The shock for people coming here is that they're going to have to get down and dirty rather than take the well trodden path.

Richard
17-02-2014, 11:26 PM
(Slightly off topic)
I find it interesting that while everyone slags off the chinese machines, but clearly they can supply decent rails, bearings, spindles, ball screws, motors and extrusions...

How come no one is doing a kit of bits with decent electronics (geko's) and cables...

Maybe that's what the myCNCuk machine should be...

CharlesJenkinson
17-02-2014, 11:35 PM
If it wasn't for Deming and TQM, the Chinese wouldn't be making decent anything, engineering wise. Bureaucratic and autocratic cultures don't easily refine the right way of doing things.

EddyCurrent
18-02-2014, 12:40 PM
A Lego type approach would work for me.
Say you break the machine down into components such as;

Frame
Gantry
Linear motion (rails/bearings, rack & pinion, ball nuts, etc.)
Control Electronics (psu, safety circuit, bob, etc.)
Motion Electronics (stepper/servo motors & drivers)
Z axis
Spindle and VFD
Software (Mach3 Linux, DSP, etc.)
etc.

Then for each component various designs could be put forward and anyone wishing to build a machine could pick'n'mix the components to 'Lego' a machine together.

Tenson
18-02-2014, 02:07 PM
Yes I think that would be good, but you'd need to decide on standard sizes for each system component so you can mix and match.

jimbo_cnc
11-08-2014, 11:23 AM
As someone else said, to build momentum and not be reliant on any particular members or the same old members, the design should be capable of replicating itself. So the first jobs for the newly built machine is to build parts for the next set of newbies to the forum.

It could become a right of passage into the group. And there would be a shared mass of experience to help the newbie. And we can all sit around sharing our fond memories of our first mycncuk machine....

This most likely means capability to machine aluminium parts [which is any machine, so no problem! :) ].

This thread could then become the longest ever as more and more machines get built, and the design and list of suppliers is constantly refined.

Maybe all it needs is one person to post the first design and shopping list.

masinecc
02-05-2015, 08:38 PM
How did you screw the hiwin guides to the square profile?