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manofgresley
07-01-2013, 01:11 PM
Hi all.

Firstly, many thanks for all the help you have given me so far, especially with my LED + Limit Switch query.

While in my garage today, doing some wiring on my cabinet, I suddenly had a thought.

My Mill is on a standard 3 pin,13 amp plug, obviously it will be on a separate supply to the cabinet, my thought was this, what happens if the fuse blows to my Mill, will the Drivers keep on turning the Stepper motors, ie DISASTER. Please remember, I have no knowledge of Mach 3 yet, that's my next big learning curve,I assume that the electronics would detect an increase in Torque on the Stepper Motors and then shut down the electronics, trouble is i do not like assuming, because it makes an ASS OF U & ME, looking forward to your advice.

Regards

Ray

Ricardoco
07-01-2013, 02:59 PM
Hi all.

Firstly, many thanks for all the help you have given me so far, especially with my LED + Limit Switch query.

While in my garage today, doing some wiring on my cabinet, I suddenly had a thought.

My Mill is on a standard 3 pin,13 amp plug, obviously it will be on a separate supply to the cabinet, my thought was this, what happens if the fuse blows to my Mill, will the Drivers keep on turning the Stepper motors, ie DISASTER. Please remember, I have no knowledge of Mach 3 yet, that's my next big learning curve,I assume that the electronics would detect an increase in Torque on the Stepper Motors and then shut down the electronics, trouble is i do not like assuming, because it makes an ASS OF U & ME, looking forward to your advice.

Regards

Ray Ok if your cabinet loses power the system could get an E-Stop signal from a relay that also lost power and changed state. With standard stepper drivers the system would not detect a failure and indeed the result may not be good but as these steppers would lose power along with the cabinet the worst that would happen is mach would carry on running and the mill would just stop moving. the relay I mentioned at the begining is just a way of letting mach know that something has happened.

Rick

manofgresley
07-01-2013, 03:42 PM
Hi Rick, many thanks for quick reply, but i don't fully follow you.

My current condition is this, if Mill loses power, Steppers keep going, BAD situation, if cabinet loses power Mills X,Y & Z axis stop, but the Spindle keeps rotating, were do i fit the relay? if you have time a sketch would help.

Regards

Ray

Ricardoco
07-01-2013, 03:49 PM
Hi Rick, many thanks for quick reply, but i don't fully follow you.

My current condition is this, if Mill loses power, Steppers keep going, BAD situation, if cabinet loses power Mills X,Y & Z axis stop, but the Spindle keeps rotating, were do i fit the relay? if you have time a sketch would help.

Regards

Ray Ok where does your mill get its power??

Ricardoco
07-01-2013, 04:45 PM
Ok here is a simple block diagram, its not the only way of doing it, but it lets me show you my thinking, and you can alter it to suit your system and i will be able to see what you have..

7896

Let me know

Rick

HankMcSpank
07-01-2013, 04:53 PM
In your block diagram, the stepper motors get their power from LV Supply (via the stepper drivers)....in turn the LV Supply gets its power from the HV supply (mains?) ...therefore if HV supply blows a fuse, LV supply won't get any power...therefore in that scenario, the steppers...they no workee.

Ricardoco
07-01-2013, 04:58 PM
In your block diagram, the stepper motors get their power from LV Supply (via the stepper drivers)....in turn the LV Supply gets its power from the HV supply (mains?) ...therefore if HV supply blows a fuse, LV supply won't get any power...therefore the steppers...they no workee. Yep thats the idea, and the spindle stops too!! Blown fuse system stops..

HankMcSpank
07-01-2013, 05:01 PM
Yep thats the idea, and the spindle stops too!! Blown fuse system stops..

In case I wasn't clear, what I meant is, as its drawn Ray needn't worry about his steppers continuing to turn if mains blows a fuse.

Ricardoco
07-01-2013, 05:15 PM
In case I wasn't clear, what I meant is, as its drawn Ray needn't worry about his steppers continuing to turn if mains blows a fuse.Cheers Hank, i knew what you meant, but the problem is i dont know what he has already, it may be the system is all build and thats where the problems will come in, although i would just shove in a latching mains contactor and run the HV stuff out of that, quick fix i know, but worth while and easy.


Rick

manofgresley
07-01-2013, 06:00 PM
Hi Guys

Thanks for your contribution so far, but i think there is still some misunderstanding, to answer a previous question, my Mill is powered from a Standard 13 amp 3 pin outlet. I have enclosed my BLOCK diagram of what is actually the condition of my system now, I have 3 different 3 pin 240 vac supplies, all with there own 10 amp fuse, if Mill blows fuse due to overload condition, cabinet and PC are still Powered.

7897

Regards

Ray

Ricardoco
07-01-2013, 06:06 PM
Hi Guys

Thanks for your contribution so far, but i think there is still some misunderstanding, to answer a previous question, my Mill is powered from a Standard 13 amp 3 pin outlet. I have enclosed my BLOCK diagram of what is actually the condition of my system now, I have 3 different 3 pin 240 vac supplies, all with there own 10 amp fuse, if Mill blows fuse due to overload condition, cabinet and PC are still Powered.

7897

Regards

Ray Ok then change it to this, Job Done.. if you can that is..

7898

Rick

manofgresley
07-01-2013, 06:43 PM
Hi Rick

That looks great many thanks, IYHO what would be the best way to divide the 240 supply, my thoughts are a 240 volt busbar in the cabinet, with a tap off to the Mill and a tap off to the rest of the cabinet.


7899
Regards

Ray

Clive S
07-01-2013, 07:22 PM
Or perhaps you could use a switched fused spur to feed a double sockect

JAZZCNC
07-01-2013, 09:28 PM
Ray I wouldn't put the Mill spindle and the Control box on the same fuse.? If the spindle bogs down and just happens to draw a bit more power when the steppers are working hard then the combination of control box and spindle could trip the fuse. Where's on there own fuse's the Mill spindle will handle the Bog and continue without affecting the control box.

If you want true safety use a relay system to shut the other down. This way both protect each other in case of failure or power loss and the relay in control box will stop the spindle if it goes offline and vise versa the spindle relay will inform the Control box it's failed which will then stop things in a controlled manner turning off or killing power to other important attachments and halting Mach3.

You can also control the spindle ON/OFF thru Mach3 and G-code in a similar way.

Ricardoco
07-01-2013, 09:56 PM
Hi Rick

That looks great many thanks, IYHO what would be the best way to divide the 240 supply, my thoughts are a 240 volt busbar in the cabinet, with a tap off to the Mill and a tap off to the rest of the cabinet.


7899
Regards

Ray
As jazz has pointed out using a relay (with the correct rating)is really the best way, but if not then have their own fuses. But the first is preferred as there is a higher degree of control when using a relay. Rick

manofgresley
08-01-2013, 09:12 AM
Hi, many thanks for all the advise, it's now getting heavy (I am a retired Mechanical engineer) but i do not give up easily, forgive me a few more questions.

Hi Jazz, what is a Bog ?
Would a drawing of a relay schematic be possible from anyone, as I read drawings ok, sometime the written / verbal passes me by.

Regards

Ray

JAZZCNC
08-01-2013, 02:36 PM
Hi Jazz, what is a Bog ?

Ah ah probably a Yorkshire saying.!! . . By this I mean if Spindle comes under heavy load from sticky material or hard spots and starts "Bogging down" on speed and increasing the Amp load on fuse.

Ricardoco
08-01-2013, 03:44 PM
I know this is a simple take on things but here is a circuit that does the job..

7905

If anyone has a better circuit post it up so we can help this chap out LOL

Rick

manofgresley
08-01-2013, 05:01 PM
Hi Rick, are the latching switches just for lamp indication, if yes can i get rid of them, don't want to make it to complicated yet.

Regards

Ray

Ricardoco
08-01-2013, 05:17 PM
Hi Rick, are the latching switches just for lamp indication, if yes can i get rid of them, don't want to make it to complicated yet.

Regards

Raythe switches do have lamps in them but they are not required, the switches are there to latch the relay on so when power is lost to either relay it unlatches and stops the other supply, like an interlock circuit one is dependant on the other.

The switches i have used are on off two button switches one NO and one NC, the NO switch gives power activating the relay and hence giving power through its contacts to itself and the NC switch is used to break the circuit de-energising the relay.

7907


You could of course use two seperate switches per relay one momentry NOand one momentry NC. Im just lazy and opted for the one with a light in it... (i like lights!!.. before someone else chimes in)..


Rick

if your on a tight budget let me know and ill post over a couple of switches without lights FOC..

manofgresley
08-01-2013, 05:30 PM
Hi Rick.

That's very generous of you, yes i am on a can spend when i have got the money budget (She who must be obeyed) i am retired now so everything helps, so i will accept your offer, do you have e mail and i will send my address.

Regards

Ray

Ricardoco
08-01-2013, 05:37 PM
Hi Rick.

That's very generous of you, yes i am on a can spend when i have got the money budget (She who must be obeyed) i am retired now so everything helps, so i will accept your offer, do you have e mail and i will send my address.

Regards

Ray

Ok Ray ive senty you a PM, Im away at work till friday so Ill pack them up and see if i can post then.

Regards Rick