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View Full Version : REBUILD: Renovating a Hardinge HLV-H



BillTodd
10-02-2009, 07:22 PM
I acquired this filthy Hardinge from a firm for which my brother has been doing some work. Apparently, they acquired it in a company buy-out and had it shipped to their high precision dept. The manager took one look and consigned it to the scrap heap (their HLV's are pristine and polished :)).


http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213&d=1233771422


That's my younger brother on the fork-lift and my next eldest brother's car and trailer. With my Eldest brother giving me a hand to get the thing off the trailer it was quite a family affair. Handy things, brothers :)

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=214&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234129441

BillTodd
10-02-2009, 07:34 PM
Once in the garage, the first job was to get rid of the horrible off-white hand paint job...

Fortunately the lathe must have had a minor 'tart up' prior to the hand painting; The darker grey blow-over spray job has not stuck to the original Hardinge enamel very well , so I was able to simply scrape off the two layers in one simply operation.

I'm not sure what to do about painting it yet; I'd to spray it but my compressor's too small and the lathe is far too heavy to move to a spray shop - I'm thinking about rollering it on ???

BillTodd
10-02-2009, 07:47 PM
I heard back from Axis_gb (http://www.axis-gb.com) , Sony's Uk distributor for the lathe's magnescale DRO. They have a replacement switch overlay in stock for <£10 and will supply a manual for free :) Truly superb service :)

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215&d=1234129754

It's a testament to the robustness of the magnescale scales that they were still working (over the 2" or so that I could move them) while stuffed almost full of congealed coolant. There's no way a glass scale would have survived. I took them apart and scraped most of the stuff out, then cleaned them with safewash pcb cleaner (doesn't eat plastic, unlike some solvents) now they're working OK. (



More good news...

I had been disappointed to find that there were no change wheels or banjo behind the machine's gearbox cover (all the pictures I had seen of the HLV's had gears). Mick (the man on the forklift) spoke to one of the machinists at the firm I got the lathe from and he says they don't need change gears at all to cut English threads, the built in gear box works without them. :)

BillTodd
11-02-2009, 10:32 PM
When I removed the power feed motor I thought i saw some water run out of the apron gearbox. I had to crack the box open to check...

Inside the apron gears and clutches (for cross and longitudinal feeds) are slimey but in good order. No obvious sign of water ingress.


I found out from Hardinge UK today that the machine was made in mid 1961! The hours meter on the control box says 20,000 hrs so it's not done a lot of work in the last 47 years.

One strange thing: the tailstock is metric (the lathe is otherwise english) so it must hve ben swapped out at some time in the past. The picture shows the tailstock leadscrew ; notice the double row bearing and adjustable backlash compensation.


What's the best polish for steel? A couple of minutes with a wire brush is all that's needed to clean up the rusty bits, but the steel is so hard even wet n dry won't make it shine.

Robin Hewitt
12-02-2009, 01:25 AM
Looks in relatively good nick, just been a bit unloved. Do you really need to polish the steel? Abrasives and lathes don't really mix all that well, OTOH a coat of paint could work wonders.

Question is, did they junk it for a reason? The fact that it's still around could mean there's not a lot wrong with it :beer:
I am also a fan of Safewash, smells like bubble mixture, expensive but not so bad if you buy the 25 litre size. I use it in an ultrasonic tank, dissolves awkward organics and leaves everything shining like a new pin.

Robin

Lee Roberts
12-02-2009, 02:32 AM
Wicked project Bill, I will be keeping an eye on this one.

Just taking back to the grey makes it look so much better, remember as you do this you’re doing it for us both and possibly some others!

I think it’s just a case of not being to the "managers" taste by the sounds of it Robin, fingers x for bill that it’s not got any major faults.

I would love to have a project like this, the space would be nice to ;-): beer:

aafradio
12-02-2009, 04:47 PM
What's the best polish for steel? A couple of minutes with a wire brush is all that's needed to clean up the rusty bits, but the steel is so hard even wet n dry won't make it shine.

Go careful with that wire brush - it looks like you may have too large a wire diameter and it's gouging the surface. I used Scotchbrite on mine with WD-40. Took a lot of elbow grease, but the result was excellent. I never had to use any polish on it after that. My bare surfaces looked a lot like yours when I got it, except for the paint. Several views of it as it looks now are at http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/

- Mike

BillTodd
12-02-2009, 08:56 PM
Go careful with that wire brush - it looks like you may have too large a wire diameter and it's gouging the surface. I used Scotchbrite on mine with WD-40.
Thanks for your concern but, those 'gouges' are where I waved a diamond hone over the top to see if anything would touch it at all (they are really very fine scratches - they've caught the camera flash))

Scotchbrite and WD sounds like the right combination :)

http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/hardinge.htm - Wow, If I could get it to look like yours, I'd be as pleased as Punch :)

You seem like a man who would know... Have you trying chemical blueing on any parts?

BillTodd
12-02-2009, 09:10 PM
Got as far as removing the leadscrew half nuts and carriage today...

I dismantled the apron and found the first real sign of wear; The carriage drive gear inner bearing has been eating it's way into the gear shaft. I'm not should what I can do, other than replace the gear and bearings. I'll email ZMT later to see if they have a good S/H one.

The overlay for the Sony DRO arrived with manual as promised. Many thanks to Richard at Axis GB (Sony's UK distributor for magnescale) :)

I though I'd finished scraping muck off of this machine, but when I removed the feed motor control box, I found another pound of two of the **** stuffed under the end of the bed.

Worse than a teenager's bedroom!

aafradio
12-02-2009, 10:20 PM
Thanks for your concern but, those 'gouges' are where I waved a diamond hone over the top to see if anything would touch it at all (they are really very fine scratches - they've caught the camera flash))

Whew! Glad to hear that. They should polish out with the Scotchbrite, then.


Have you trying chemical blueing on any parts?

Yup, but on my Bridgeport, not on the Hardinge. Got it from a gunsmith supplier - Brownell's here in the US. They had a number of different types, including both cold and hot solutions, in small bottles. The cold solution works well if you don't rub it incessantly. Like yours, mine had the quick threading lever on the compound broken off, so I made a new one from 1/4" stainless rod. That didn't need blueing, though. Your carriage drive gear looks like mine did. I toyed with the idea of having the shaft flame sprayed and then grinding it to size, but I finally just bit the bullet and bought a new one and a new Oilite bushing from Hardinge. I don't recall how much it was...around $80USD sounds familiar.

In the feed motor control box, make sure someone has replaced the original selenium rectifiers with solid state diodes.

You're making great progress, BTW!

There are a few articles at http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/tool_restoration.html that might interest you as you get closer to completion.

- Mike

BillTodd
16-02-2009, 11:13 PM
Well one week after I started scraping and brushing the dirt off... I'm still scraping and brushing off dirt! Everytime I remove a badge or cover, there's congealed muck behind it.

I spent an hour Saturday freeing up the spindle lock microswitch mechanism (stops the spindle motor running while the spindle lock is engaged)

I can't make up my mind whether to strip the gearbox, headstock and bed off of the stand for painting. On the one hand it would be the proper way to do it. On the other, it would take an enourmous amount of extra effort for little gain.

As much as I would like to, I'm not trying to get this thing back to pristine condition, that would take more money and time than I have available right now So, the target is a clean, painted lathe in useable condition.

I'm investigating ways to power the various motors ATM Mike's step-up transformer into a 415v VFD looks favourite. The main motor is not easily replaced; it is dual speed 1480/480 rpm and balanced to 0.0003" (peak-peak)!

[Edit] At one point I was conviced there was a casting fault in the rear T slot. The muck was so solid I had to hammer at my T slot scraper to remove the stuff. I ought to report the previous users to the RSPCH

aafradio
17-02-2009, 12:11 AM
Great progress, Bill! I don't want to deflect you from a careful restoration, but like you, I was leaning toward a glossy repaint job with the lathe all broken down to its molecular level. However, I was anxious to try it out, so I used a spray can of primer that was the same color as the lathe (which had been repainted in a flat light gray color) and just touched up all the really bad looking parts, like the doors, tray, etc. That wuz around 8 years ago....:rolleyes:

Speaking of VFDs, I just snagged a nice 2hp Cutler-Hammer 415-480v unit for my vertical bandsaw today on ebay for USD$30. With patience, they are out there.

- Mike

BillTodd
17-02-2009, 02:04 PM
Hi, Mike,

I have the 415vac VFD but I'm having trouble locating a (cheap) step-up transformer over here. Most of the 'surplus' stores have disappeared over the last few years (killed off by high business rates I suspect) and heavy item like transformers tend not to be listed on ebay because of the cost of postage. Worst case, I'll buy a new one at ~£100.


That wuz around 8 years ago....

Ha yes, these things only get one shot at completion. :)

BillTodd
23-02-2009, 10:17 PM
Progress is a little slow ATM due to work commitments. I have done some work on the lathe, but none that is even slightly photogenic. I'm just at that 'preparing for paint' stage, the one that seem to take takes forever :(

BillTodd
25-02-2009, 11:57 PM
Managed to get a little bit of rubbing down done today.

DA'd most of the loose paint off of the stand and started to fill the worst chips in the headstock.

My brother has loaned me his HVLP spray gun which, he assures me, will work with my limited air supply and not spread too much paint around the inside of the garage.

The stand is galvanised so will need self etching primer - nasty stuff - I don't think I'll try spraying it on.

Lee Roberts
26-02-2009, 01:12 AM
Looking good mate, hope you had a mask on while you sanded that down. Got an order waiting for you, cant have the machine operator faling sick on us at this stage in the game :beer:

BillTodd
27-02-2009, 08:48 PM
Rollered a coat of self-etch primer onto the stand. While that was drying I popped down to Gramic's (http://www.essexautomotive.co.uk/showbusiness.php?id=16&catid=13&catname=Business%20Services) to sort out some grey primer, thinners and top coat.

When I arrived back, I gave the stand a coat of grey primer, again with a roller.

I then spent a hour and half trying to get any paint at all out of the HVLP spray gun - it was just spitting it out -, before I realised the filter was clogged !!! (hey, I've not used one before and there are a million combinations of the knobs to try before the 'obvious' strikes)

But, I Finally managed to coat the the head in a initial layer of primer.

I now know that a) most of the little knicks and scratches will disappear under the paint b) I've completely missed rubbing down several places, and c) I've enough air to spray it - If I can get to grips with that ******ing HVLP gun.

BillTodd
28-02-2009, 09:47 PM
Between visitors (why does everyone turn up while you're in the middle of painting?), I managed to roller on a layer of self-etch and grey primer onto the main tray today. It looks so much better painted :)


This evening I cleaned and rebuilt the compound slide - compare before and after :)

Lee Roberts
28-02-2009, 10:07 PM
This evening I cleaned and rebuilt the compound slide - compare before and after

WOW, this is coming along very nicly mate, i did look at your other post and wonder if you would be doing the tray as well. Makes sense while your there huh.

Is that really the same unit (compound slide) ? what did you use to get it up so well it looks so much better.

awaiting the next events....

BillTodd
28-02-2009, 11:34 PM
WOW, this is coming along very nicly mate,
Thanks Lee :)


i did look at your other post and wonder if you would be doing the tray as well. Makes sense while your there huh.
There is a degree of madness in my method - I primed the tray last so as not to bash it about while preparing the head for spraying.


Is that really the same unit (compound slide) ? what did you use to get it up so well it looks so much better.

Mostly a soft wire brush, wd40 and a 'scotch-brite' buffing (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=350160823659&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=022)wheel from RDG plus the lashings of elbow grease. :)

BillTodd
06-03-2009, 06:00 PM
Having spent all week preparing primed parts, I got brave today and applied some top coat...

My first attempts were something only Bryant and May would be proud of :o

Once I'd figured out that the HVLP gun will only spray water thin paint things improved. (although I notice i've missed a couple of places so a second coat will be needed)

Tomorrow I plan to tackle the stand and if that goes well the tray and bed.

Lee Roberts
07-03-2009, 10:13 AM
Why is there a line all the way around the hand wheel in the last pic? You know where there is no paint.

BillTodd
07-03-2009, 04:46 PM
Why is there a line all the way around the hand wheel in the last pic? You know where there is no paint.

Yes. I didn't mask the polished rim so, before the paint was hard (so it wouldn't chip), I scraped off around the raised edge. I'll clean the over-spray off the rim with emery.

BillTodd
07-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Well the first coat is done.

Took me a half hour to sweep and hoover the garage floor and generally get ready. another half hour faffing around trying to get the paint the right consistancy so it would make it out of the gun without spitting & blobbing (basically, as runny as water). Surprisingly, I've only one small run (on the back, where I couldn't get far enough away from the stand to spray it properly), if anything I'm still not putting enough paint on.


I'll have to get another litre of paint Monday ready for a second coat sometime next week.

BillTodd
10-03-2009, 10:59 PM
I got mixed result from my second attempt... :(

The small door has come up really well (I'd only given it a quick coat before I'd run out of paint). The second coat on the head and bed are fine . The stand is OK

However. The electrical door, tail stock and power feed box have all pickled into a crinkle finish and parts of the table have also a hint of it.

I'm not really sure why; perhaps the underlying paint was not properly dry, perhaps it was on too thick. :confused:

I'll live with the table top, but I'll have to wait for the paint to harden before I can rub-down and re-spray the other bits.

I'll take some pictures of the head/bed tomorrow. Meanwhile, here's a picture of the reassembled carriage handle. (that odd blue line is a trick of the light - it's actually a very faint scratch that will easily polish out)

aafradio
11-03-2009, 02:17 AM
I got mixed result from my second attempt... :(
However. The electrical door, tail stock and power feed box have all pickled into a crinkle finish and parts of the table have also a hint of it.
I'm not really sure why; perhaps the underlying paint was not properly dry, perhaps it was on too thick. :confused:out)

Ah yes...my favorite paint style :rolleyes: (since I restore WWII aircraft radios which are almost universally finished in black wrinkle paint.) The wrinkle is caused by statistically random uneven paint film contraction between coats during the curing process. The wrinkle or crackle paints of the 1930s and 1940s were actually produced with additives and techniques that promoted the process between coats.

More to the point in your case, there are at least four elements I can recall that contribute to unintentional wrinkling:
1) too much paint film thickness in each coat (partially related to #3 below)
2) incompatible solvents or paint formulations between coats
3) incomplete curing (evaporation of solvents or crosslinking, depending on paint material) of a previous coat before a second coat is applied
and
4) temperature high enough to accelerate problems 1 through 3

What that means in a practical sense is to make sure the solvents of multiple coats are compatible (e.g., water based and oil based following coats are not a good idea, though they often work fine if enough time is allowed between coats), wait long enough between coats, avoid drying heat lamps unless you are sure of the other factors, and keep the film thickness reasonably thin.

It seems sorta ironic thinking about the reverse of the finishes I try to achieve, but the basic principles are fundamental to both results.:)

-Mike

BillTodd
11-03-2009, 11:11 PM
Hi Mike,

Yep, I think no3 is the cause of my problems (and maybe a little No1 - It was surprisingly easy to go from too little paint to too much with just flick of the fan control)

The stand/bed and headstock are OK (I can live with them). I'll redo the the tailstock, electrical door and power feed box later when it's had plenty of time to dry.


I spent this morning bolting a few bits back on (just to make my self feel better about it) I'm happy again :)

BillTodd
12-03-2009, 06:10 PM
Awesome job so far!

Thanks. It seems to have taken an age to ge this far.

As a matter of interest, how many lathes do you currently own? :DJust two :) The other is, I've just discovered, a 9 " Southbend 415-Y automotive special (i.e. it's red instead of grey)

[edit] The 415 was cast on 6 Jan 1937 http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1062905&postcount=589

Lee Roberts
13-03-2009, 04:30 PM
wow, machine looks so nice, great job bill.

BillTodd
13-03-2009, 11:44 PM
Yesterday, after moaning about the lack of industry in Colchester, I found a firm who can metal-spray my carriage gear that is, literally, a stone's throw away from me (well, a stone's throw with a good arm and a fair wind).

I thought Colchester Rewind and Repair (http://www.iessex.co.uk/profile/158644/Colchester/Colchester-Rewind-and-Repairs-Ltd/) just fixed electric motors, but they have a whole range of medium-heavy engineering equipment - You know you're onto a winner when you walk in the door and get; "Hello, I know you. You're Andy's mate; You fixed my computer..."

After talking to Paul, their spraying expert, we agreed that even their hardest power would not be suitable for a needle roller, so I chose to go with the hard power and to make bronze bushes to support the sprayed gear.

Today. I Spent most of the morning waiting for a phone call from CR+R only to find Virgin's phone/Internet & TV were all down :( I popped 'round the corner after lunch and picked up the newly sprayed gear :)

The little Southbend made light work of a couple of bronze bushes (it really is a good little lathe); I decided to put a seal on the rack side of the carriage bearing. I struggled a bit to make the O-ring groove; didn't have a suitable tool, but managed in the end by grinding the life out of an old boring bar (the groove could have been a little deeper, it's a right ******** to get the gear past the seal without pinging the o-ring out of its seat)

I was expecting to have a major job honing/boring the two bearings parallel (the apron front is pinned to the carriage and there are other gears to keep aligned so it has to be right), however, with nothing more than light honing through the pair of bearing with a brass rod and a tap or two with a rubber mallet, the thing went together a treat :)

I couldn't resist test fitting the carriage onto the bed just to feel how the thing moved --Smooooooth :)

BillTodd
14-03-2009, 10:38 PM
Managed to assemble the apron today. It was a lot more work than I had thought, but got there in the end.

I used Loctite 5922 to seal the apron to the carriage (looks and smells just like hermatite but is black instead of red), seems to work well; no oil leaks so far :)

I have yet to find or make a core-plug to cover the carriage gear, but I have a novell idea based on the fact the hole is 1 1/8" - If it works, it'll raise a smile or two...

BillTodd
16-03-2009, 09:20 PM
Cleaned and mounted the cross slide and compound slides yesterday & today.


Made a new cover for the coolant sump (the old one was missing) and primed a few parts for spraying tommorrow (if I get the time)

BillTodd
17-03-2009, 09:46 PM
Sprayed, assembled and fitted the Coolant pump (had to make a new filter from some purf sheet) .

Sprayed and fitted the sump cover. The orignal one fitted to HLV's had a cover for the drain. I'm not sure if I'll bother with one, the holes in the drain are ~1/8" - I doubt I'll lose anything that small.

BillTodd
18-03-2009, 10:23 PM
The spare Bijur oil metering unit arrived today from Central Surplus (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/CENTRAL-SURPLUS) in the US. They turned out to be the wrong type but I was able to remove the little steel collar to replace the one I broke on my units.

With the metering unit repaired I could replace the Oiler distribution block. This was badly corroded by coolant, so I milled it flat on all sides.

I made a new knob for the oil pump from a cupboard door handle (I may make a better one later).

Hopefully, tomorrow I'll have another go at spraying the tail stock and control box.

Robin Hewitt
19-03-2009, 10:37 AM
I am amazed at the speed this is all happenning at, do you have nothing else to do? :beer:

BillTodd
19-03-2009, 11:27 AM
I am amazed at the speed this is all happenning at, do you have nothing else to do? :beer:

Things are a little quiet on the jobs front (only a couple of PA amps to fix :(), so I might as well use my time to increase the value of my assets.

Plus, it's stuck right in the middle of my workshop which is stopping work on the drill/mill cnc conversion.

And, I have a motorcycle parked in the conservatory which is generating a certain amount of "haven't you done that yet" pressure.

Robin Hewitt
19-03-2009, 12:47 PM
Plus, it's stuck right in the middle of my workshop which is stopping work on the drill/mill cnc conversion.

I had much the same problem with an injection moulder, I could move it with a pallet truck but I couldn't shift it sideways to tuck it up against the wall and under some shelving.

Ended up putting it on castors, Draper do fixed wheel castors rated 250kg apiece and you can get them at around £7.50 each if you shop around.

May not be best suited to a lathe, it could end up chasing you around the workshop if you went off centre, but as a temporary measure while fixing it up perhaps?

OTOH if it did chase you I'd want to see the video :D

BillTodd
20-03-2009, 04:29 AM
Ended up putting it on castors

I'm going to have to do something similar; I found while rebuilding that access to the rear of the bed is essential, and almost impossible from the from front. I definiatly need to be able to roll it away from the wall easily.

BillTodd
20-03-2009, 04:46 AM
I painted the control box and and (for the third time) the tail stock and power feed box. This time the paint looks OK :)


I had time to test the DRO (having mounted the Cross slide scale) and much to my disappointment found a fault - It was counting to 0.0004" then displaying 'Error'. A quick email to Richard at Axis (http://www.axis-gb.com/) returned some basic ohm-meter test routines.

After finding a small amount of corrosion in the scale-end connector I worked my up the lead to the 'water-proof' quick connect. It was solid with corrosion (see picture) I had to pick at it with a needle just to get the connector apart. The coolant has eaten the copper from the braided screen and a couple of the wires, leaving empty plastic sleeves ! I stripped back the cable to find it in the same condition, all but a inch or two from the scale end.

I bodged the connector back together soldering the last two inches of cable to the pins of the plug. Now the scale is working again.

Richard says Axis have spares, I am steeling my self for the price.

Tomorrow, I'll reassemble the tail-stock and collect closer.

BillTodd
21-03-2009, 05:04 AM
Lovely day today, almost Spring like...:p


Assembled and fitted the collet closer.

Assembled and fitted the tailstock - Now I know why the power feed box is so massive; The tailstock is so heavy I had to rest it on the power feed box to be able to align it with the bed ('cos there's no way I could lift it at arm's length)

I don't like the handle on the tail stock it's not a Hardinge wheel (it looks someone knocked it up in an afternoon). I doubt I'll get a proper replacement anytime soon' so I've been looking at the Myford spares that RDG are selling. I think the largest one will do the job with only a small amount of re-jigging - It'll look a lot better then the current one.

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/11971.jpg



Repainted the DRO mount. It looked heavy in matt black so I thought i'd try silver instead (it's OK I suppose )

Tomorrow I'll have a go at mounting the carriage DRO scale on the front of the bed.

BillTodd
22-03-2009, 02:37 AM
I mounted the DRO on the front of the bed.

I had to make a bracket to attach the scale to the apron. I didn't want to drill any more holes in the machine, so I devised a mount that would fix to one existing apron bolt and then clamp to the bottom edge.


I'm fairly pleased with the result; The rear clamp grub-screws area real pain to tighten, but once done-up the bracket is very secure.

Getting the armoured cable to roll with the movement of the carriage without getting snagged on the edge of the sump was a tedious job - In the end I had to add a perforated cable guide under the edge of the bed and a length of spring wire to the cable to keep it straight. I should be ok

BillTodd
23-03-2009, 11:11 PM
A bit premature perhaps but, I thought I'd fit the doors

BillTodd
24-03-2009, 09:33 PM
Applied power to the thing for the first time.

First I rewired the control transformer to accept 240v input (instead of 440) then checked the contactors were operating OK.

Checked the power feed controls - they were working OK, except I'd reversed the connections to the variable transformer so high speed was low and vice-versa (easily fixed).

I then bodged* my 440v VFD on, temporarily using the control transformer as a step-up. Got the spindle spining in both high and low speed and up & down the speed range.

But, while doing all this, I noticed the slow-start resister on the VFD was smoking (It's an old 5HP Toshiba device and has a softstart to prevent fuses popping on switch on). I powered down to investigate why the relay, which bypasses the resister, was not working. I had to take the VFD apart to find out why (I have no manual for this thing). I stuck it back together only to get no responce at all. I then realised I'd forgotten to replace the current limit lead (which has to be removed to get at the relay).

It popped a 600v 20A fuse and killed one of the IGBT modules :(
( a MG50M2CK1, if you have any in your pockets)

BTW Mike:

I found a couple of subtle differences between my machine and the wiring diagram from your site:

The spindle interlock contactor is wired in a different place it disconnects the 3ph only to the motor and the 1ph control power to the up/down contactors

A couple of spare contacts on the fwd/reverse switch are used to break the main contactor coil circuit - so if the fwd/rev switch is changed while running it stops the machine.

I'll draw a diagram of it for your site if you wish.


*(I do this sort of thing for a living, so by bodged, I do not mean unsafe)

aafradio
24-03-2009, 11:11 PM
BTW Mike:
I found a couple of subtle differences between my machine and the wiring diagram from your site.
I'll draw a diagram of it for your site if you wish.


I'm not surprised. That's one of the reasons that they have a pocket in the electrical door - to hold the as-built condition of the machine when it went out the door of the factory. That condition does change over time, usually in minor ways. I've also noticed occasional cultural differences in wiring design between the US and European models, mostly related to safety practices on each side of the pond.

I'd be delighted to put it up on the aafradio site as another variation if you'd like to e-mail it to me. Never can tell who it might help in the future.

BillTodd
27-03-2009, 05:29 PM
I had to finish the worklight before I could post these :)


Progress has slowed while I'm awaiting the 240-415v step-up transformer to arrive from Airlink Transformers (http://www.airlinktransformers.com/). Meanwhile, I've found another, much smaller and neater, Variable Frequency Drive to power the main motor ( A 1500W Siemans MM150).

I'm bidding on a couple of low power (100W) VFDs to run the coolant pump and speed change motors at the moment, with the intention to completely rewire the control box.

The plan is to use the interlocked pair of contactors (currently used to control the speed adjust motor) as a new speed selector relay. This new relay pair will only change speed (thus disconnecting the VFD) when the VFD is stopped. I'll keep the original speed change lever and switch, but it will be used at 24v to control the VFD.

I could use a microprocessor to control all this but, at the risk of being called a luddite, I intend to use simple relays in the interest of fixability (by others).

I'll post a circuit when I've worked out the details.

aafradio
28-03-2009, 09:53 PM
I had to finish the worklight before I could post these :)

What a difference a day makes... (with apologies to Dinah Washington...)


I'm bidding on a couple of low power (100W) VFDs to run the coolant pump and speed change motors at the moment, with the intention to completely rewire the control box.

Actually, the spindle motor VFD will also run the small motors quite well without complaint, Bill. I don't know how you intend to use your VFD, but I use mine 99% of the time to generate 60Hz (50 Hz in your case.) The remaining 1% is for a virtual backgear for slow threading or large faceplate work in stainless or other tough steels at 25-30Hz. That big super balanced motor is on a 5 hp frame and won't take overspeeding lightly.


The plan is to use the interlocked pair of contactors (currently used to control the speed adjust motor) as a new speed selector relay. This new relay pair will only change speed (thus disconnecting the VFD) when the VFD is stopped.

I may have misunderstood the logic you described, but I believe I might rethink that approach. You absolutely want the ability to raise or lower spindle speed while the tool tip is cutting! I can't count the number of times just a small change in speed has stopped tool system resonance (skreeeeech) and resulting finish problems when turning a part or threading. I wouldn't give up that unique capability that Hardinge designed into the lathe for a thousand bucks.

Here's a suggestion - just bypass the control transformer (feeding it from straight 415v), and hook up the VFD feeding everything else and give it a try. You won't have to change anything that way except the wires to the control transformer. Leave the high/low speed lever in the position you will use most of the time. Use a separate on/off pushbutton for the VFD like this one:
http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/Hardinge_PB.jpg
Try it...you'll like it...:beer:

BillTodd
29-03-2009, 02:40 PM
I may have misunderstood the logic...
No, it's my fault for not making it clear :)

For those unfamiliar with the Hardinge drive train; The lathe has a dual speed (480/1480 rpm - 0.5/1.5hp) three phase drive motor and a 8:1 variable V-belt system (driven by a motorised jack with up/down buttons - see attached picture) that gives it two ranges of 125 to 1000 and 375 to 3000rpm.

The dual speed motor is controlled directly by a lever switch giving Low/Stop/High speeds. The motor is sufficiently robust to withstand the current surges caused by abrupt speed changes when connected to a three phase supply. (i.e. it is possible to switch high>Low or Low>High without stopping)

I'm going to drive my main motor from a 1.5kW electronic variable frequency drive (often called an inverter or a VFD). These convert the single phase mains to a variable frequency three phase. They can ramp the motor speed up and down, slow it quickly with DC injection braking and all sorts of clever tricks.

I want to keep and use the Hardinge Low/Stop/High Lever control. However, the VFD will not take kindly to the power surges if I leave it connected as it it now - it will just stop with a fault code or worse, go bang.


I will switch the motor connections to the VFD with a dual contactor (one for high one for low), changing the range only when the VFD says it is at 0Hz (stopped). These contactors have to be a mechanically interlocked pair to ensure that both cannot be 'ON' at the same time. These are a fairly expensive and awkward to find item . Fortunately, there is already a pair of these in the control box, used to control the variable speed jack. I'll use another small (100W) VFD to drive the jack up and down.

The main VFD has enough power to drive both the jack and the main motor. However, using a separate VFD for the jack means I can also dispence with the fwd/rev contactor allowing the main VFD to reverse without upsetting the jack motion.

I'll make a simple control circuit* (it only needs to be two small relays) that will take the input from the existing lever switch. If/when the lever is moved directly from one speed to another it will; tell the VFD to STOP, and once the VFD says it is at 0Hz (stopped) it will change the range contactors then tell the VFD to ramp back up to speed (50Hz).

I wont be using the VFD to change the motor speed, it'll simply start,stop and reverse it smoothly [although, as you say Mike, using it as an electronic back gear might be useful]


*I cut my teeth on a microprocessor controlled motion sensing logic for a 24trk tape recorder, but I don't want it to make this that complicated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yesterday I tested the new VFD. Typically, after searching everywhere to find a cheap step-up tranformer and ordering a new one (80 sobs! :(), I remembered I had a 1kVA tranformer that would do the job perfectly !!! (Kip, of this parish, will be laughing at this point because I sold him the other one of the pair I had)

It took about a hour of playing with the up/down speeds, adjusting the brake, oiling the pulleys etc. to get the lathe to run smoothly. The attached picture shows a penny balanced on the head stock while the spindle is spinning at 3174rpm, unfortunately the camera flash has frozen the motion.

BillTodd
29-03-2009, 10:28 PM
Mike,

Here's the original wiring diagram in PDF format (hope it's not too big for your site).

Bill

[edit] pdf updated - spindle interlock corrected

Jim Caudill
30-03-2009, 01:42 AM
Great work Bill, I jumped over here to see your work after reading your posting on the PM site about your vibrating collet closer. I can't believe how well you got the rusty steel components to "clean up".

I love Hardinge lathes. I have (2) HLV-H's, (1) HLV-TFB, & (2) HC's. I also have the Feeler clone of the HLV-H:). It's a disease I tell ya!

BillTodd
30-03-2009, 09:25 PM
Great work Bill, I jumped over here to see your work after reading your posting on the PM site about your vibrating collet closer.

Thanks Jim :) (I'll pick up the collet closer thread on PM)


I can't believe how well you got the rusty steel components to "clean up".

I think I'm lucky it was so cover in filth (congealed coolant) is has to a large extent protected the steel from the weather.

BillTodd
30-03-2009, 10:03 PM
The step up transformer arrived this morning (early - someone forgot to put the clocks forward?) .

I spent a few hours playing with the VFD, checking and testing how the various function would work when connected to the motor. Last night I had worked out a scheme that would allow the speed to be changed without slowing to a stop first (making the VFD 'catch' the spinning motor) ; It worked fine going from fast to slow, but wasn't at all happy the other way around :(

One irritation, the 0Hz (stopped) output function doesn't work as described in the manual - bizarrely, the relay contacts open (instead of close) to indicate the VFD has stopped driving the motor :confused: It's not a show stopper, but after I had pared down the control circuit to just one relay, it's annoying to have to add extra circuitry to work around it.

[edit] BTW I won the two 100W VFD I need to finish the control box. When they arrive I'll strip out the old panel and start rewiring.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
'I have a lathe that is basically running - what should I do now?'

Cut a thread!

I had to make a new M12 T nut to mount the little QCTP from my Southbend onto the Hardinge compound and find a spacer to bring it up the the correct height.

Turned and faced a piece of 16mm steel stock - First attempt at a 1/2" thread was a bit of a disaster; got the stop in the wrong place , disconnected the halfnuts to reposition it and, of course, b*****red the thread.

Turned it down to 3/8" - BTW if you haven't got a DRO on your lathe, get one. It makes turning things to size a doddle (it doesn't need to read down to 0.00005" :p). - got the threading stop almost in the right place... and Wow! now I see why HLV's have a reputation for easy threading.

So now I have a 3/8" 26tpi thread on the end of a bar :) Yes I know it's an odd thread ; it was supposed to be 24TPI but I had a parallax problem with the gear selector (Hardinge owners will know what I mean - I should have counted the holes instead of looking at the number on the plate :LOL:)

Jim Caudill
31-03-2009, 04:13 AM
I have cut some beautiful threads that were the wrong pitch. When counting holes don't forget the first one is a "parking" spot, that doesn't have any gear engagement.

BillTodd
31-03-2009, 02:52 PM
Mike - I've just updated the wiring diagram

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3270&postcount=49

BillTodd
31-03-2009, 09:51 PM
Here's the first draft of the new control circuit. I have avoided as much 'electronics' as possible (even to the point of using a relay as an inverter) to keep it as a set of simple black boxes.

It works as follows:

By default it powers on to the low speed setting with the Speed Select Relay's nc output engaging the 2ML contactor connecting the low speed windings to the VFD.

If the Speed Change Lever is moved left to the Slow position. A RUN signal is supplied to the VFD via the Speed Select relay and R1/C1 (more on these later). The VFD's 0Hz contact will close, switching the output of the Inverter relay to open. The VFD will ramp up the motor to full speed 480rpm (50Hz) in a few seconds.

Now If the Speed Change Lever is moved right to the Fast position. The Speed Select relay's no output is open so the RUN signal drops to OFF and the VFD ramps down to 0Hz (Stopped). When it reaches 0Hz the VFD's output contacts open forcing the Inverter relay's output to 24v. The 24v 0hz signal is used to change and latch the Speed Select relay to High speed. As the relay changes speed, R2 is taken to 24v, charging C2 in about a hundred milliseconds (to give time for the contactors to settle) and generating a new RUN signal to the VFD. (R4 discharges C1 via R1 ready for the next speed change)


If the Speed Change lever is then switched back to the Slow position, when the 24v 0Hz signal is generated, it is applied to R3 which disables the Speed Select relay's coil so switching it back to Slow.

If the Speed Change lever is centred (STOP) then the RUN signal is removed and the brake is applied. The previously selected speed is retained by the Speed Select relay.

Jonathan P
01-04-2009, 11:39 AM
Looks good, My HLV is # 461 and thought it would be while before I saw an older one. I was too looking at swapping out to an Inverter, at the minute, I have it rigged so that the ctrl is supplied direct of 240 mains, (bypassing the transformer) and I engage the slow or high run relay’s before I tell the inverter to ramp up. (Not ideal – but ok temporary) I might inquire as to how Cyclematic lathes do their speed control. Do we know how the new Hardinges work ? – be good to see a new Schematic and even more interesting would be the New HLV that has just come out, with the servo leadscrew. In my case I have only just ripped out and restored the wiring to original and everything works fine so I may try to keep it original. Quick question,, with regards to the brake, you are still retaining the mechanical brake solenoid. This is the way I would be doing it, but thinking about it there may be some merit in using the inverter to do the braking, what are your thoughts on that? The auto transformer you are using is single phase, are you doing the same as me and feeding the inverter with 400V single phase ? and not running it at full capacity ? I should really get some pictures of mine on this forum.... I have just got to the primer & paint stage, (lotts of dammage to my carrige gears + rebuilding the carrige feed motor + revising its electronics have taken a lot of time) Best Jon P

BillTodd
01-04-2009, 02:08 PM
Hi Jonathan,

Good to hear from you:)


.. be good to see a new Schematic and even more interesting would be the New HLV that has just come out, with the servo leadscrew.
Yes it'd be nice to know if the lever still directly controls the speed change or weather they are just using a single speed motor and a clever VFD. (I suppose it would even be possible to design a dual output VFD just for dual speed motors)


Quick question,, with regards to the brake, you are still retaining the mechanical brake solenoid. This is the way I would be doing it, but thinking about it there may be some merit in using the inverter to do the braking, what are your thoughts on that?
I'm retaining the mechanical brake as it is useful for collet changes etc.. ATM it will only operate when the lever is in the STOP position (or when the spindle lock is ON). During ramp down for speed changes, the VFD does all the braking. Incidently, I found the VFD slowed the machine faster, without faulting, using the ramp down without dc injection.

It's a real pity that my VFD's 'catch spinning motor' routine doesn't seem to work 'as advertised'. If it is has to speed-up the motor (i.e. when changing from low to high speed) the motor complains loudly. The high to low speed transition was flawless. (I guess it ramps down from max frequency ).


The auto transformer you are using is single phase, are you doing the same as me and feeding the inverter with 400V single phase ? and not running it at full capacity ?
The Siemans VFDs are rated at full power while working on single phase (many [most?] that will run on single phase will not need to be derated - it's only losing two diodes in the bridge rectifier, if the remaining four will take the extra current there's no need to de-rate the VFD)


I should really get some pictures of mine on this forum.... I have just got to the primer & paint stage, (lotts of dammage to my carrige gears + rebuilding the carrige feed motor + revising its electronics have taken a lot of time) Best Jon P

Yes do post here I'd love to see it.

I'd be tempted to replace the DC motor with a smaller 3ph one and use another small VFD for power feed - It'd have a much better speed control

Sorry to here about your carriage gears. Are new ones very expensive? :(

aafradio
01-04-2009, 03:14 PM
It's a real pity that my VFD's 'catch spinning motor' routine doesn't seem to work 'as advertised'. If it is has to speed-up the motor (i.e. when changing from low to high speed) the motor complains loudly.

You might consider changing the sampling frequency as an experiment. If the motor is emitting higher frequency noises, it's often a function of mechanical resonance of the windings under load.


The Siemans VFDs are rated at full power while working on single phase (many [most?] that will run on single phase will not need to be derated - it's only losing two diodes in the bridge rectifier, if the remaining four will take the extra current there's no need to de-rate the VFD)

The size of the filter capacitor on the DC bus actually has more to do with derating than the size of the diodes, though of course the diode rating has to be considered for single phase feeding of a larger capacitor bank. Most of the VFD's I've seen suggest a 1/3 derating...e.g., use a 3hp rated unit for a 2hp motor. That's consistent with the energy under the power curve for three phase versus single phase rectifier designs. The VFDs that are rated for single phase simply have a larger capacitor bank in them. If the supplied voltage from a three phase input design VFD sinks under a heavy cutting load, it is usually fairly easy to add capacitance to the unit externally to solve the problem. The risk is exceeding the current rating of the internal diodes because they are charging a heavier peak load in each cycle. It's usually not a problem for reasonable (<50%) increases in capacitance, but needs to be checked.

BillTodd
01-04-2009, 06:30 PM
Hi Mike, Did you download the '61 wiring diagram OK (not too big in pdf form)?


You might consider changing the sampling frequency as an experiment. If the motor is emitting higher frequency noises, it's often a function of mechanical resonance of the windings under load.
Yeah, I fiddled with a number of things (I'm currently running it at 16kHz 'cos the motor's lightly loaded and it makes it silent).

The 'catch flying motor' function is odd; it should have no difficulty re-syncing to a slower motor. However, it says in the spec that it auto-senses the number of poles on the motor, it's unclear if this is only happens when RUN is selected. If it only senses after RUN then that might explain why it wont sync to the motor.

After playing around with it some more today, I'm sorely tempted to add a microcontroller to the VFD's serial bus, just so I could adjust the drive parameters 'on the fly'. I'm sure it would be possible then to dispense with the speed change relays and just tell the VFD to STOP (cut the power) prior to a speed change and pick up at the correct frequency after.


The size of the filter capacitor on the DC bus actually has more to do with derating than the size of the diodes

I thought someone would pick-up on that :)

I've just re-checked the Siemens' data, there no de-rating for single phase operation. although it does suggest the large power ones may need an external choke.

Interestingly, the box has terminals with access to the HV DC supply, but the manual doesn't show them. However, In an earlier model manual I downloaded, it did show them and DC brake resistor terminals. I wonder if smaller modern capacitors allow Siemens to 'over-rate' the filter for 3ph?

aafradio
01-04-2009, 07:13 PM
Hi Mike, Did you download the '61 wiring diagram OK (not too big in pdf form)?

I sure did. Many thanks for the effort!

Lessee...I got three e-mails in the batch this morning that had attachments greater than 75MB, so, no, it wasn't too big...:p


After playing around with it some more today, I'm sorely tempted to add a microcontroller to the VFD's serial bus, just so I could adjust the drive parameters 'on the fly'. I'm sure it would be possible then to dispense with the speed change relays and just tell the VFD to STOP (cut the power) prior to a speed change and pick up at the correct frequency after.Sounds like an interesting project. After 40 years of battling customers to define requirements for a few zillion projects, I'm moved to curiosity over why one would need the capability to switch from low to high or high to low quickly while it is running -at least on a manual lathe - but as long as you're having fun...
:beer:

I've just re-checked the Siemens' data, there no de-rating for single phase operation. although it does suggest the large power ones may need an external choke. The elimination of derating seems fairly common in one horsepower and less units. I suspect it has mostly to do with the low cost of capacitors and the re-use of the circuit boards in the 20HP and lower lineup.


Interestingly, the box has terminals with access to the HV DC supply, but the manual doesn't show them. However, In an earlier model manual I downloaded, it did show them and DC brake resistor terminals. I wonder if smaller modern capacitors allow Siemens to 'over-rate' the filter for 3ph?Of all the VFDs I've examined, all but one had easily accessible DC bus connections. The capacitor choice was likely made using a trade-off study of the cost of buying large quantities of one size versus smaller quantities of various sizes. That usually brings out the head scratching in those of us who buy the older stuff. :rolleyes:

BillTodd
01-04-2009, 07:30 PM
Sounds like an interesting project. After 40 years of battling customers to define requirements for a few zillion projects, I'm moved to curiosity over why one would need the capability to switch from low to high or high to low quickly while it is running -at least on a manual lathe - but as long as you're having fun...

It has more to do with keeping the speed control lever as a go/stop device, than the need to switch speed.

I like the clunky lever. It reminds me of a time before 'Health and Safety', before every thing had to have an E-Stop button. A time when Window-cleaners were allowed to use ladders (you may be surprised to learn that EU/UK law now forbids them to use ladders!!!!!) A time when, when things 'go wrong' it was not always someone else's fault.

I will have my lever - even if it takes 100k LOCs (of machine code) :)

aafradio
01-04-2009, 11:30 PM
Well, that's sorta what I assumed, but my knee-flex reaction training always kicks in...heh, heh... :D

I always liked the lever action too, but one day a workpiece that was enduring a nasty interrupted cut because of its odd shape didn't think it was restrained well enough and escaped just past my ear at about the speed of sound. :rolleyes: Ever since then I tend to stand over to the right of the potential workpiece ejecta path, which is why the VFD control is there on my lathe in the photo above.... How many LOCs to guard against that?:confused:

I'm just teasin' you, Bill. When I was younger I spent a lot of time designing stuff like that for the shop simply because it was fun to do. "Because it's there" is a perfectly good rationale for doing it at times. And I agree with your observation about personnel safety regulations in Western countries. I suspect that the end result will be working uniforms that look like the Michelin Man and padded rooms to prevent us from hurting ourselves if we stumble into a wall. Wait! That sounds like an insane asylum!

BillTodd
07-04-2009, 04:44 PM
Just fitted the rewired control panel. :)

The control logic is just a bird's nest ATM while I test it, but it seems to work as advertised.

The photo shows the bird-nest logic and temporary 24v PSU (bottom right) I'll knock up a PCB for the two relays and PSU. I'll add a low voltage (50vac) transformer to power the work light and use (half) to power the logic.

All I have to do now is convert the speed adjust motor to 240v...

Jonathan P
07-04-2009, 11:58 PM
Looking very Nice indeed.

once i have finished mine, i will be doing the same type of thing.
Good work !!


Jon

BillTodd
08-04-2009, 03:57 PM
I don't know what convinced me that the speed jack motor was dual voltage (I thought it would be American, but it was made in Swansea) but, it ain't, and there's no easy way to convert it (I was prepared to carve into the insulation to find the star point but thought better of it when I saw it close up)

So, while plan B is gestating, I've implemented plan C and fitted a couple of contactors (one does the reversing, one connects the motor) to drive the Jack from the main VFD. (Stop laughing - Mike :))

While I was in the engine room playing with jack, I noticed a nick in my motor belt. I've just got of the phone with Ken at ZMT (http://www.zmtservices.co.uk/)(Hi Ken) to enquire about a new one, so another £80 will be departing from my bank account soon.

Ken was also convinced that all the speed jack motors were dual voltage, which made me feel a little better.

BillTodd
08-04-2009, 07:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLXg02zo1bM"]YouTube - Hardinge HLV H motor control

Do I really sound like that???

Jonathan P
08-04-2009, 10:51 PM
Really good,
have you played with the acceleration + deceleration and found those to be the best match for kindness to the machine vs speed of use. ?

how have you got over the mechanical brake fighting the programmed ramp down time ?

good progress i will post some pictures of mine soon (promise)

Jon:p

BillTodd
08-04-2009, 11:09 PM
Really good,
have you played with the acceleration + deceleration and found those to be the best match for kindness to the machine vs speed of use. ?

Acceleration/deceleration times are determined by that required at max speed (which is a pain) Too short and the VFD will trip with an over-current or over-voltage fault. I may look into an external brake resistor for the VFD which should fix the over voltage problem.

I'm having to fight the idea of adding a micro to command the VFD; For a little extra work I could dynamically alter the VFD settings to match the lathe's speed. But, the relays work, so perhaps I'll just live with it the way it is.


how have you got over the mechanical brake fighting the programmed ramp down time ?

I haven't ATM (although, the brake is only applied when the lever is in the stop position) I could easily take a feed from the 0Hz relay and apply the brake only when the motor is at rest (but corks are cheap, so WTH)



good progress i will post some pictures of mine soon (promise)

Jon:p

I'm waiting :rolleyes:

aafradio
11-04-2009, 01:28 PM
So, while plan B is gestating, I've implemented plan C and fitted a couple of contactors (one does the reversing, one connects the motor) to drive the Jack from the main VFD. (Stop laughing - Mike :))

Heh, heh...not laughing, just enjoying the innovative workarounds. Whatever does the job is good...and it works very well, judging by the YouTube page.

I am sorta wondering how long you can resist starting to make chips, though... :rolleyes: The temptation would be overwhelming to me.

BillTodd
11-04-2009, 05:48 PM
I am sorta wondering how long you can resist starting to make chips, though
The 'newness' hasn't worn off yet,I don't want to get it dirty. ;)

aafradio
11-04-2009, 05:59 PM
Try breathing into a paper sack until the feeling passes...:beer:

BillTodd
11-04-2009, 06:18 PM
Try breathing into a paper sack until the feeling passes...:beer:
Rolls On Floor Laughing :)

aafradio
11-04-2009, 10:46 PM
I'm just waiting for you to mention the moment of amazement and exhilaration when you move the cross feed dial .0150" in 303 stainless and find the work has reduced in diameter by .0150". :rolleyes:

For a 45 year old lathe, that's better than looking at a new paint job any day!

Of course, I was brought up on a 1942 South Bend Heavy 10, where any relationship between the dial settings and diameter reduction in multiple materials was a complex variable that could be analyzed only through advanced calculus...:D

BillTodd
13-04-2009, 11:47 PM
Updated Circuit diagrams.

BillTodd
17-04-2009, 06:55 PM
Not much to photograph ATM, but...

I fitted a 4 jaw chuck (so I can make a backplate for a 3jc) which exacerbated the braking time problem; Essentially, the braking time for all speeds is determined by the time it takes from the highest speed, with the extra flying mass of the chuck I had to extend the brake time - I don't mind a ~6 second stop from 3000rpm, but the same from 125rpm is silly.

I emailed Siemens for advice on adding a braking resistor, to allow the VFD to brake harder, unfortunately my model VFD does not have the brake transistor fitted, so I can't do that. They were kind enough to suggest an alternative; an MM440 (@ £467), Keypad (£28), Brake resistor (£112 - expensive, even for a big resistor, I think) and a class A filter (£61). I thanked them for their help, but I won't be going down that road.

This morning I found, buried in among the 'JOG' parameters, in the Siemens VFD is an option to use the jog up/down ramp times instead of the normal ones; switching between the two settings with one of the digital inputs. A quick re-wire and now I have ~2s stop times from low speed and ~6.5s from High speed with chuck :)

It makes the whole lathe feel better. (must redo the youtube video)

BillTodd
17-04-2009, 07:07 PM
I'm just waiting for you to mention the moment of amazement and exhilaration when you move the cross feed dial .0150" in 303 stainless and find the work has reduced in diameter by .0150". :rolleyes:

For a 45 year old lathe, that's better than looking at a new paint job any day!

Of course, I was brought up on a 1942 South Bend Heavy 10, where any relationship between the dial settings and diameter reduction in multiple materials was a complex variable that could be analyzed only through advanced calculus...:D

I am blown away by the finish I can get on ally - without even trying.

A while ago, I made a fly cutter for my drill/mill from a ~3/4" stainless-steel bolt on my '37 SB 415 (9") it struggled (as you can imagine a SS bolt is very hard) but it chewed enough off to do the job. The finish was awful

In a bored moment I dialled it into the HLV chuck and took it down to 14.000mm with a couple of passes :) BIG CHEESY GRIN

aafradio
27-04-2009, 03:04 AM
Hello aafradio it appears that you have not posted on our forums in days !
Why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution or just engage in a conversation with other members.
Great things can come from the smallest of things !My goodness, I had no idea the forum requirements had such a high standard!

In the spirit of the message: Bill, have you altered the spectrum of your voice in the YouTube video with a synthesizer yet? I recommend using the spectrum distribution associated with James Earl Jones' voice in the Star Wars series. Very effective....:rolleyes:

(I think I have satisfied the unseen voices now...)

BillTodd
27-04-2009, 06:14 PM
In the spirit of the message: Bill, have you altered the spectrum of your voice in the YouTube video with a synthesizer yet? I recommend using the spectrum distribution associated with James Earl Jones' voice in the Star Wars series. Very effective....
Odd thing, but to me, I sound just like JEJ (or Richard Burton) so it must be the microphone that makes me sound like a country bumkin ;)

BillTodd
28-04-2009, 09:58 PM
I've pretty much finished the renovation now. I've just fitted the machine with castors so I can move it around the workshop until it fits somewhere.

The castors are just about man enough for the job, they'll allow me to get behind the machine and access the electrical box easily. I'll have to chock the machine with wedges once in position.

My brother gave me a nice little 80mm german(?) made chuck, so the first real job I used the lathe on was a chuck mount for the taper nose - I'll have to make myself a better boring bar though, I couldn't stop the little one I have squeaking and chattering.

BillTodd
13-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Finally got 'round to replacing the bird's nested control circuit with a proper PCB

Lee Roberts
13-05-2009, 11:25 PM
Wow bill that is some wiring mate, shop is looking good to great job and all the best in the future machining. How soon do you hope to start turning your first part ?

BillTodd
13-05-2009, 11:43 PM
Thanks Lee :)


How soon do you hope to start turning your first part ?
Oh, I've been using it for a while now, just odds and sods (e.g. I trued up a prop-shaft bearing for my neighbour's yacht yesterday).

Now that I've sorted out the workshop, I hope to re-start the cnc conversion of the drill/mill and I've got a plan for a bed-top cnc add-on for the Hardinge similar to zepher9900's Feeler conversion on cnczone; My brother wants me to make him some new wheels for his English wheel - it'll be a whole lot easier with a cnc lathe.

zephyr9900
10-06-2009, 09:49 PM
Bill, a fantastic job you've done! :clap: I was impressed enough at your mechanical refurbishment, but am blown away by your spindle control implementation. I'm planning on going down a different path with my Feeler, but that doesn't lessen my admiration for what you've done.

Randy

John S
10-06-2009, 10:57 PM
Aahh a mini Audit attachment, just needs a turret.

zephyr9900
10-06-2009, 11:18 PM
Kip, thanks for the kind words. If I didn't want the design copied, I would have posted photos like this. :heehee:

Randy

zephyr9900
10-06-2009, 11:23 PM
...just needs a turret.
Turret? We don't need no stinkin' turret! :nope:
YouTube - shay bushing 1

Randy
(now I need to shut up before Bill thumps me for hijacking his thread)

BillTodd
06-08-2009, 09:26 PM
Just thought I'd post a couple of pictures of my home-brew travelling steady


(just to bump this thread above Irving's ;))

onecut
01-07-2012, 10:59 AM
bill,it looks fantastic got a feeling this is going to prove to be your number one lathe what about the spraying would you go down that route if you found another one or resort to brush roller going to paint mine not sure what way to go your looks the bizz but is it worth the heartache

BillTodd
01-07-2012, 09:26 PM
what about the spraying would you go down that route if you found another one or resort to brush roller

I've got the hang of spraying now (well almost :)) I sprayed my first Haighton Mill (0011) (http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/major/)and have the second one (0020) still to do (my olympic project :))

I suppose brush and roller would be OK, but I still prefer to spray paint.

Bill

onecut
27-10-2012, 08:28 PM
what a job never tire of going thro the pages of progress this man is an old fashion tradesman,pity he didn,t put a few more up -B

BillTodd
28-10-2012, 10:48 PM
:beer:

I've added a few bits and pieces since finishing the renovation, so I suppose I ought to just bring this thread up to date :

I have replaced the bearings in the cross-slide, top-slide and the collet closer and repaired the closer tube (to stop the closer wobbling madly). Replaced both drive belts.

I made a Hardinge style QC tool post for it (The Hardinge ones are impossible to find in this country) , a Metric banjo & bobbins (shaped to hold the large Myford 127T translation gear) and a close up steady to enable me to cut very small threads

To allow me to cut long pitch threads <8TPI without risking damage to the gear chain, I've added extra speed controls and switches on the threading lever. This enables me to set different spindle speeds for forward stop and reverse threading easing the forces on the gears as the dog clutch engages (see:Hardinge HLV-H threading-lever speed control.mpg - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c2JP0ScEZQ))

northumbrian
01-11-2012, 11:52 AM
Very inspiring thread, I hope you don't mind if I pick your brains for my own Hardinge rebuild.

BillTodd
01-11-2012, 01:18 PM
Very inspiring thread, I hope you don't mind if I pick your brains for my own Hardinge rebuild.
No at all :) fire away.

Bill

Rodge
10-02-2013, 10:16 PM
Hello Bill,

I too have been inspired by your renovation and will also want to pick your brains when I start on rebuilding my own Hardinge. After two and a half years of searching I have finally managed to bag a HLV-H to call my very own. I am impatiently waiting for it's delivery on or around the 21st of this month. I do need to decide how I am going to power my lathe & initially thought of building a rotary converter. I do like the way you have powered yours but think I lack the required level electrical/electronic skill to emulate your work. My choice of rotary converter is based on the hope that it will be plug and play so I will not have to rewire the lathe. Were I more knowledgeable I would have followed closely in your footsteps. As I have not yet got my hands dirty on my machine I presently have only a couple of questions to ask you. DO you have the paint codes for the paint you used ( My lathe is presently green, but not for longhttp://www.mycncuk.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.png)? Secondly do you have any knowledge of and/or plans to build an electronic lead-screw? I ask this because I have seen a youtube video of the Babin Machine Tool electronic servo lead-screw and I want one but can't afford over five times what I paid for my lathe for it!

Once again thank you for for your great renovation blog.

Rodger

BillTodd
12-02-2013, 11:38 AM
Hi Rodger,

Thanks for the kind words . :)

The paint I used was a standard automotive enamel. If I were to paint it again I would choose a different paint (perhaps a Sherwin Williams machine paint) The paint I have has held up well (resistant to coolant or oil) but it a little brittle and prone to chipping. The colour is a light/mid grey (perhaps edging toward blue-ish) that was a reasonably close match to the original base colour.

A rotary phase convert will work OK (please don't let a static converter fry that irreplaceable motor) and is probably a good choice if you have a few machines to power. However, the VFD does give some extra options*, and I would not hesitate to do the same conversion again.

I did look into an electronic lead screw. I like Paul Babin's version a lot; It keeps the lathe functioning as it should and doesn't try to do too much. However, last I heard from Paul is that he has no plans to make it available outside the US (I guess it makes it too difficult/expensive to support).

There is John Dammyer's excellent Electronic Lead Screw** DIY project in kit form. It was aimed at mini lathes but could be adapted for use on the HLV-H (might require a servo motor instead of the stepper currently used) . The Yahoo group is very active and John really gives excellent support.

I keep thinking about trying to make an ELS of my own (I've just bought a little Haighton Cadet (http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/cadet/), and am looking to make it cut metric screw threads) but, in the end, I just made myself a metric banjo and bought a set of Myford gears (Hardinge gears being almost unobtainable & expensive).

Let me know if you need any help, and start a blog so wee can see you progress :)

Regards,

Bill




*here's one I've just been showing to a guy on the Yahoo Hardinge group
Hardinge HLV-H threading-lever speed control.mpg - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c2JP0ScEZQ)

**John's Yahoo group:
E-LeadScrew : Lathe Electronic Lead Screw R&D (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/E-LeadScrew/?yguid=432630897)

pauly45
24-02-2013, 08:31 AM
Hello Bill,

I can only echo what other people have said about your rebuild. It has been a great read prior to the, hopefully soon, delivery of a KL-1 I'm negotiating to buy.

In the mean time I have been reading about your VFD conversion, including the information and drawings from the Yahoo Hardinge Group.
If I may, I had a couple of questions about the VFD that have been confusing me.

Yourself and some other people use a 240v to 480v transformer to power the VFD.
From the information I can find about the Siemens MM150 you use, it appears to be a 240VAC Single Phase input device, and looking through general component suppliers (RS), the only 480VAC input VFD's are 3 phase inputs, and the single phase input VFD's are 240VAC.

I wondered what the reason for the transformer is, since I assume that you are still only getting a single phase output from the transformer, just at 480v ?

I wouldn't have thought you could feed a 480VAC single phase into a FVD designed for a 480VAC 3 phase input, can you ?

Yours Confused !
Paul.

BillTodd
24-02-2013, 09:11 PM
Hi Paul,

the Siemens MM150 you use, it appears to be a 240VAC Single Phase input device,

No. The Siemens MM150 VFD I am using is the 1.5kW 500v three phase input version. It is fed from the single phase 415vac output of a step up transformer.

All VFDs run on DC internally, so they do not really require more than one phase to work. High power ones have 3ph input because they need more current and it is easier (i.e. smaller, cheaper capacitors) to smooth the DC from a poly-phase input (like a single cylinder engine needs a bigger flywheel than a multi- cylinder engine) .

There is sufficient capacity in most VFDs to operate on a single phase input without causing any real problems (especially on a lathe with a low duty cycle operation).

Some VFDs have phase loss detection, which would prevent single phase operation, but most newer ones just sense DC bus ripple voltage so will operate fine on single phase input (they will still fault if excessively loaded).

Bill

pauly45
25-02-2013, 01:39 PM
Hi Bill,

Thanks for such a prompt reply.

That makes a lot more sense now.
I'm assuming that the risk is that since only one phase is being used to supply all the output power, that it is the rectifier diodes on the one input that risk being over-loaded - all the output power being derived from one phase set of rectifier diodes rather than three ?

Do you just leave two of the input phases disconnected ?

Using a 3 phase 415 input VFD makes the selection choice much larger and cheaper !

Many Thanks - I'll look into 415v 3ph VFD's now !

Regards
Paul.

BillTodd
27-02-2013, 12:21 AM
I'm assuming that the risk is that since only one phase is being used to supply all the output power, that it is the rectifier diodes on the one input that risk being over-loaded - all the output power being derived from one phase set of rectifier diodes rather than three ?

True, but since the rectifier diodes are usually integrated with the rest of the power devices, there's virtually no cost to the manufacturer to make the devices very robust (i.e. to use the same spec devices for the smallest and largest power VFD in a range).

The only real issue is ripple current heating in the capacitors.

Bill