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asto
11-04-2013, 10:40 PM
8729

Hi everybody!
I encounter a little problem operating my Denford Orac lathe with the IMO JAGUAR VC150 VFD.
I wanted to use the IMO VC150 in place of the Parajust because the last one lacks the capability for reversing.
The case here is, that the Parajust uses a 5k frequency control pot and the IMO VC150 uses a 10k pot. This means the Orac controller when applying the highest impendance for bringing the motor to a full stop. This will not happen and the motor is going to continue running at aprox. 300RPM because 5k is not enough for the IMO to completely cut the power to the spindle motor.
Also, the IMO was not fitted with a latching relay for start/stop control and the normally open momentary switch is not suitable for the IMO as is with the Parajust to activate this control.

If someone of you gents is familiar with the IMO JAGUAR VFD and successfully has made a similar modification using this inverter his advise on how one may overcome this different control impendance problem is highly appreciated.

cheers

Asto

birchy
11-04-2013, 11:43 PM
Would it not have been easier to keep the original drive but reverse the motor by using relays or contactors to swap the motor phases?

As for the new drive, you should be able to set its parameters to take a 0-5V or 0-10V input signal from the pot (assuming that the 5K pot outputs 0-5V?). For the latching circuit, there should be a way to set that on the drive but you might need a linking wire somewhere in the start/stop/run terminals. Otherwise, you'll have to latch a relay instead.

asto
12-04-2013, 12:26 AM
Hi and thanks for the response.
Well, the original VFD I accidentally damaged. Its power module...a Gentron Powertherm B412F needs replacement but I have not managed to locate one yet.
On the other hand, in order to set parameters for the IMO I need the user manual for VC150 and this is something really rare to find today.
That's why i asked for help.
Parajust pot outputs 0-10 volts thats the only thing i know.

birchy
12-04-2013, 12:52 AM
0-10V is the standard signal, so that's good news. Bad news is that you're gonna need a manual for that drive in order to set it up properly. You'll probably find that the manual for ANY if the IMO Jaguar range will be OK as they standardise on parameter numbers and functions and the start/stop/run/speed/etc terminal connections will be the same.

Maybe one of these? Power Drive Services - Electric Motor Specialists - Fuji Manuals (http://www.inverter.co.uk/applications/fuji.htm)

Swarfing
12-04-2013, 12:52 AM
has a diagram on here.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kPRz4TqKPpQJ:www.imopc.com/documents/downloads/IMO%2520Jaguar%2520Range%2520Brochure%25202010.pdf +&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiv_3x4b1X0uXpjzSB4TgT9UT3LIAsGKgTFVSXs Xyhz0aYPi-5fI3N6B5PjIPHdl2OgX8nHH76OMRxSslXm7etWE1qsrr1wKIKu SpmG7rnzbku2I-5DoCzm0t5tDM4-igjko2qd&sig=AHIEtbRfMmVQ8o8ireb_4toMNCztzFXWSw

Swarfing
12-04-2013, 01:01 AM
This should be the same even though a different name on the unit

http://www.inverter.co.uk/applications/manuals&datasheets/FRN-Mini-manual.pdf

birchy
12-04-2013, 01:06 AM
Damn it, I've somehow ended up on eBay looking at Jaguar XKR's and XF's. I hate this forum. :)

GEOFFREY
12-04-2013, 02:09 AM
Damn it, I've somehow ended up on eBay looking at Jaguar XKR's and XF's. I hate this forum. :)

Keep looking at XKR's, they are just beautiful!! (biased again as I have a pacific blue convertible). G.

irving2008
12-04-2013, 08:45 AM
CUB - Drives Direct
www.drivesdirect.co.uk/Downloads/IMO%20CUB%20Manual.pdf

this is the manual i had with my imo vfd

asto
13-04-2013, 01:05 AM
CUB - Drives Direct
www.drivesdirect.co.uk/Downloads/IMO%20CUB%20Manual.pdf

this is the manual i had with my imo vfd

Thanks Irving!
Though mine is VC150.
Swarfing there must be some problem with this link. Could not open the Pdf.

Swarfing
13-04-2013, 01:13 AM
Asto should not make a lot of difference, most of the connections and settings are the same across a lot of the different models. You have enough manuals here now to what you need. the only difference will be the frequency settings for the speed control which won't be hard to deal with. Post a pic of the one you have.

Also i think the VC150 = Cub 1.5 amp version

asto
13-04-2013, 01:21 AM
Sure i will do that tomorrow

Thank you all

regards

irving2008
13-04-2013, 09:45 AM
@swarfing Exactly so, I thought the Cub is the VC150 (except its not 1.5A but 1.5kW (2HP) LOL), IMO branded differently for different markets...

Swarfing
13-04-2013, 10:16 AM
Yes it is the 1.5kw Irving looking again. all config is the same as far as i can see on them all.

Paul

asto
13-04-2013, 02:24 PM
Yes it is the 1.5kw Irving looking again. all config is the same as far as i can see on them all.

Paul

873987408741874287438744
I hope these IMO images have a lot to say.
The schematic came out of the Parajust manual. The pdf extracts are for the Parajust
As you all see, control impendance is double in the IMO as Parajust needs 5K pot in order to bring the motor to full stop.
87458746

Swarfing
13-04-2013, 02:40 PM
Ok this is much older than what we have been looking at. But you have all the information to connect this up so don't understand your problem with it Asto? Swap the potentiometer out for a 10k one

asto
13-04-2013, 03:54 PM
You mean an external pot?
With an external linear rotary pot of 10K runs fine.I've done this already.
My problem is, that I totally disregard which way to proceed in order to alter settings that will cause the IMO find sufficient the Orac's 5K digital pot and bring the motor to a complete stop...Cause, when I deccelarate through the machines (-) button the control outputs a maximum 5K resistance. I really do not know if it is possible to alter this value to 10K.

Swarfing
13-04-2013, 04:46 PM
Maybe i am not understanding this completely. The wiring in the Orac should go directly to the VFD for the spindle control yes? or is it going by a different circuit first? Is the speed adjust from the software of the machine or just analogue control?

asto
13-04-2013, 05:09 PM
That's right Swarfing.
The Orac's controller decides what resistance value to apply at the inverter input. And is wired directly to it even though the VFD may be removed and operate as stand alone to control motors of some other system.
Even when the machine is at manual mode the controller does the accel/deccel i guess by digitally switching resistors internally. It has to be this way how else would it be!
Is that the question or I have missed something due to the foreign language factor which applies for me here.

Swarfing
13-04-2013, 05:27 PM
Ok i understand now thank you. Does the machine speed controls ramp up and down linear or are there distinct steps in the ramping?

My thoughts were that the speed pot from the VFD ran directly to the machine controls. I do not know this machine and find it difficult without seeing it. Could you do a pic where the wires go from the VFD to the machine controls?

asto
13-04-2013, 05:38 PM
...pics are on the way. Please wait a few minutes

birchy
13-04-2013, 05:42 PM
Well I guess the value we need to know is what voltage range the Orac controller outputs. It sounds like it might be 0-5v rather than 0-10v? At the end of the day, it's just a potential divider circuit, so it should be possible to configure the drive to accept the input and/or use some resistors to bring it within range.

Swarfing
13-04-2013, 05:48 PM
Same thoughts Birchy, wondering though if there is output adjustment on the Orac control circuit? if works on step ramp up then it must have fixed voltage divisions. A bit frustrating when the problem is not sat in front of you though?

asto
13-04-2013, 06:07 PM
87528753
The 2 wires coming out from the Orac's controller (last 2 connectors to the right circled by the yellow line) connect to No. 1-2-3 IN-terminals of the Parajust VFD and these 3 terminals are also circled by yellow line. The third wire is the Shield connected only to the VFD side> Strange but this is how the machine operated all these years.2 wire ends at the controller side but 3 on the vfd side8754
These three terminals are clearly shown on the attached original Parajust schematic.
K1 is a latching relay fitted on the original machine inverter (that with the large blue capacitor) which makes start/stop easy using just one normally open momentary switch.
so far I have not cleared in my mind how IMO JAGUAR fulfills the requirements for this function. Obviously it is designed a bit differently for start/stop control.This is another problem which I am about to encounter using the IMO in place of the Parajust.

Swarfing
13-04-2013, 06:36 PM
Mmmm i wondering if the Orac is using voltage control for the speed adjustment (10v?). the third wire is to ground the shielding of the cable, if it was connected both ends it could cause a ground loop that would cause interference so that is quite normal. Can you check the terminals of the Orac for voltage whilst adjusting the speed controls?

asto
13-04-2013, 08:02 PM
...I've done this before and I know from the user manual that for speed control voltage is applied from 0-10Vdc. According to the that inverter specs one can accelarate or deccelarate even by applying an external variable 0-10V source between terminals 4 and 2 of TB! terminal block 4 being negative and of max. 500ma. This is where the wire shield goes.

For Start/stop control it uses 6Vdc

asto
13-04-2013, 08:07 PM
Swarfing, the manual extract you see on previous page here explains all this. Just give it a glance if you please

asto
13-04-2013, 08:19 PM
Thanks Birchy for the response.
Your idea of applying additional resistors to the network came to my mind as well. But then maybe it won't accelerate to max. RPM . What do you think?

i2i
13-04-2013, 08:22 PM
I've seen many of these oracs, and you're quite lucky just to have the inverter fail. In light of the age i would just bin the original controller and go to mach3.

birchy
13-04-2013, 08:24 PM
I guess the easiest solution might be a digital potentiometer? It takes a voltage input which controls the passive potentiometer.

Using an Analog Voltage to Control a Digital Potentiometer - Application Note - Maxim (http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/4051)

birchy
13-04-2013, 08:28 PM
I've seen many of these oracs, and you're quite lucky just to have the inverter fail. In light of the age i would just bin the original controller and go to mach3.
TBH, I was also thinking that the machine needs a complete upgrade, particularly given the age and likelihood of capacitors being dried up. But then I figured that either money is very tight or this is some sort of retro build. If the budget is tight, then LinuxCNC on an old PC might be a better option.

asto
13-04-2013, 08:31 PM
Checked for voltage ...Stable 0.65 volts no change when trying to accelarate

asto
13-04-2013, 11:09 PM
Now I understand what you mean Birchy.
But at the moment I am not getting any voltage measurements at the machine speed control output
Maybe there is some fault there.

birchy
13-04-2013, 11:13 PM
Yes, if it is a constant 0.65V throughout the selected speed range, then something is wrong. If that's the case, then maybe your original Parajust drive is OK but your CNC control is faulty?

Swarfing
14-04-2013, 09:13 AM
This is quite probable? Is there anybody else here that can check against theirs?

asto
14-04-2013, 10:38 PM
Thank you both.
I am reading the Parker manual and it says ...\for Fast rotation requires pin 20 of 32 Pin input socket of SD2 drive to be connected to 0volts.
So I am now measuring the keyboard lines which leave the arrow button for manual jog, as the drive connecting socket not accessible, and is reading 4.8vdc.
When pressing the arrow button the test point voltage comes down to 0.650V87638764
And when I keep this button pressed the screen shows the axis coordinates changing.
I must be totally blind I can't see what is going on. I must be real close solving this. Please note that I used a jumper wire to bridge the limit switch computer input to save some time testing limit switches. IF I do not do this the motors de-energize. Should i have done this or not?