PDA

View Full Version : NEW MEMBER: Hello from Nottingham



deadmeat30
13-08-2013, 11:00 AM
Hello everyone,

Im Alan, from just near Hucknall in Nottinghamshire. Im just starting in the world of CNC milling, so will be spending the next few nights reading through all the threads i can.

My plan is to see if its viable to build a small machine that can mill 95x95mm Aluminum blocks. It'll need to be to a high accuracy, as i plan to use the cut blocks on my little plastic injection moulding machine im currently fixing up. If there are any members around my area, would love to pick there brains. Im not from an engineering background, but i'm always willing to put my mind to tasks!

I look forward to learning some more on the CNC machines.

Thanks,

Alan

Rogue
13-08-2013, 04:02 PM
Hi Alan,

The Midlands seems to be very well represented on this board, nice to see another member joining the fold!

I'd offer to let you pick my brains but there's nothing there to pick. Besides, as my forum history might show, I'm taking the slow approach - currently averaging 12 months in between purchasing each component. In fact the toroidal transformer(s) for the PSU got delivered this morning, based on my last thread on the matter in September 2012...

m_c
13-08-2013, 07:16 PM
Hello!

I'm interested in the bit about the little plastic injection moulding machine, as that is something I might be looking into at some point in the not too distant future.

As for a suitable machine, unless you have a huge budget, you'll be looking at either a very compact/sturdy scratch build, or possibly something like a X2/3 and retrofitting it.

GEOFFREY
13-08-2013, 07:20 PM
Hi Alan, welcome to the forum. You certainly have a several of very experienced and competant members fairly close to you. What sort of items are you planning to mould? Good luck. G.

John S
13-08-2013, 09:34 PM
I'm based in Long Eaton. Couple of miles from M1 J25

You are welcome to pop round but don't forget the Hobnobs

JAZZCNC
13-08-2013, 09:53 PM
My plan is to see if its viable to build a small machine that can mill 95x95mm Aluminum blocks.

If your just wanting to mill small materiel sizes like this then milling machine will be by far best option, either buy manual mill and convert to CNC or pay thru nose and buy ready made.!! . . . John S is your man to see for milling machine on both counts.

deisel
13-08-2013, 10:03 PM
Hello everyone,

It'll need to be to a high accuracy, as i plan to use the cut blocks on my little plastic injection moulding machine im currently fixing up.
Thanks,
Alan
hello alan what moulding machine have you got?manual/pneumatic?hydraulic?.its some thing im dabbling in but havent run anything through mine yet.

deadmeat30
13-08-2013, 10:28 PM
Hey all,

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Let me answer a few questions.


Rogue
Re: Hello from Nottingham

Hi Alan,

The Midlands seems to be very well represented on this board, nice to see another member joining the fold!

I'd offer to let you pick my brains but there's nothing there to pick. Besides, as my forum history might show, I'm taking the slow approach - currently averaging 12 months in between purchasing each component. In fact the toroidal transformer(s) for the PSU got delivered this morning, based on my last thread on the matter in September 2012...

Thanks Rogue,

Do you have a build thread at all?


m_c
Re: Hello from Nottingham

Hello!

I'm interested in the bit about the little plastic injection moulding machine, as that is something I might be looking into at some point in the not too distant future.

As for a suitable machine, unless you have a huge budget, you'll be looking at either a very compact/sturdy scratch build, or possibly something like a X2/3 and retrofitting it.

Thanks m-c,

Ill come onto my Plastic injection machine later, its only a small thing.

Sadly i dont have HUGE budget, but my thoughts are, that over time getting the mould presses made, I could instead invest in a milling machine now, and over time save money. What kind of investment is this going to cost to get a nice compact/scratch build?

One thing i dont have is the workshop full of wondrous precision pillar drill and milling machines or lathes, im sure that would make my life much easier.


GEOFFREY
Re: Hello from Nottingham

Hi Alan, welcome to the forum. You certainly have a several of very experienced and competant members fairly close to you. What sort of items are you planning to mould? Good luck. G.

Thanks GEOFFREY,

Thats good to hear, looking forwards to learning about milling machines. Im hoping to make some little wargaming miniatures. I currently cast models in resin with silicone moulds, but im always interested in trying new things, so plastic injection moulding is the next step!


John S
Re: Hello from Nottingham

I'm based in Long Eaton. Couple of miles from M1 J25

You are welcome to pop round but don't forget the Hobnobs

Thanks John S,

Thats a lovely offer, and something I'll be greatful to take you up on sometime! Im just located at J27, so not far at all :chuncky:. Plain or chocolate Hobnobs?


JAZZCNC
Re: Hello from Nottingham

If your just wanting to mill small materiel sizes like this then milling machine will be by far best option, either buy manual mill and convert to CNC or pay thru nose and buy ready made.!! . . . John S is your man to see for milling machine on both counts.

Thanks for the advise, I'll be sure to question John S to death ;)


deisel
Re: Hello from Nottingham

hello alan what moulding machine have you got?manual/pneumatic?hydraulic?.its some thing im dabbling in but havent run anything through mine yet.

Hi deisel,

I'll give some more details of my machine as a number of people have now asked about it. I have a little Arburg C4 machine, it runs on compressed air. It has both automatic and semi-automatic modes. The machine was built in around 1953, so it rather old. I have spent the past few weeks cleaning it up and it. It can hold little 95mm x 95mm mould plates (hense why im looking at a milling machine to make them). I'll attach some pictures of it, I won it on ebay a little while back, and cant wait to get it running fully.

Heres my little beauty!
9441
Here is the Electronic timer and old thermostat
9442
The mould plate area and injection nozzle
9443
Inside the new Thermostat i just finished
9444
View of the PID from the front with on/off switch
9445

John S
13-08-2013, 10:51 PM
Thanks John S,

Thats a lovely offer, and something I'll be greatful to take you up on sometime! Im just located at J27, so not far at all :chuncky:. Plain or chocolate Hobnobs?





Plain, we are not all philistines on here, anyway chocolate melts when you dunk them.

Like decent coffee do you ?

PM sent with details.

JAZZCNC
13-08-2013, 11:38 PM
Like decent coffee do you ?

By that you mean crude Oil. .!!

Fivetide
14-08-2013, 04:25 AM
You have my attention Deadmeat3d love the injector would be interested in how you go with that , keep us posted :)
coffees fer girlies , nice cup of tea if yer bloke with an almond slice or Batternburg Cake :) Yes and its late I know just spent four hours watching Autocad tutorials and now I cant sleep lol !

Clive S
14-08-2013, 09:07 AM
spent four hours watching Autocad tutorials and now I cant sleep lol !
Been down that road a few years back but fine with it now, if you get stuck give me a shout. You can do a lot with it with just a few simple commands. ..Clive

GEOFFREY
14-08-2013, 09:33 AM
That little machine looks like it will be very useful when up and running. War gaming figures sounds interesting, I make small scale dolls houses and have considered doing some "derelect" structures for the WG market. I think making the moulds for your figures (I presume not flatback) would be quite difficult as I believe the most common method is wire errosion. Do you sculpt your figures yourself? Interested to hear you cast resin into silicon at present, I do a bit of white metal casting (centrifugal) into silicon moulds. G.

deadmeat30
14-08-2013, 12:00 PM
Fivetide
Re: Hello from Nottingham

You have my attention Deadmeat3d love the injector would be interested in how you go with that , keep us posted :)
coffees fer girlies , nice cup of tea if yer bloke with an almond slice or Batternburg Cake :) Yes and its late I know just spent four hours watching Autocad tutorials and now I cant sleep lol !

Hi Fivetide,

yeah its almost ready to go! Just need to hook my compressor up to ensure the pneumatic's are working fine, then it'll be time to get the mould done! There is a german company called Hasco who make small mould blocks, so can pick up everything i need from there, bar the actual cutting of the tool. I tested the PID lastnight with the thermocouple, and worked a treat, definitely better than the old dial one.


GEOFFREY
Re: Hello from Nottingham

That little machine looks like it will be very useful when up and running. War gaming figures sounds interesting, I make small scale dolls houses and have considered doing some "derelect" structures for the WG market. I think making the moulds for your figures (I presume not flatback) would be quite difficult as I believe the most common method is wire errosion. Do you sculpt your figures yourself? Interested to hear you cast resin into silicon at present, I do a bit of white metal casting (centrifugal) into silicon moulds. G.

Yeah i hope it will be. I managed to track the original manual down online, so have good reference for it. Ah nice, have your pictures of you work? The WG scenery market is becoming a flooded area, so make sure your product is different, and well priced ;). Whats flatback? Hehe, this is why im here, to find the best way to go about making the moulds. I dont sculpt myself, i generally get 3d artists to sculpt stuff and then i print it off my 3d printer and cast it in resin. Ill attach some photos at the end of my work. I just picked up a centrifugal casting machine and vulcanizer off ebay dirt cheap (infact you can see part of it in the pictures) as the mis-spelt centrifugal, so no one else found it.

Heres some pictures of my stuff.

3D render of the model
9447
Resin cast of the torso (you can see the blue 3d print just behind it)
9446
Baby version of the torso as i was play about.
9453
Front render of a spaceship
9449
Rear render of a spaceship
9448
3D print ready to be moulded
9452
Finished model cast in resin and built
9450
Just another view
9451
Front to an engine port
9454

John S
14-08-2013, 01:46 PM
3D print ready to be moulded
9452
Finished model cast in resin and built
9450



3D Printer ??????????????

Tell me more................

deadmeat30
14-08-2013, 01:59 PM
I have a 3d printer, its a Solidscape printer able to print to 13 microns on the z axis. It prints in wax, so can be used for the lost wax casting method. Can print out some amazing details.

Clive S
14-08-2013, 02:29 PM
Cool and only about 16K but impressive. ..Clive

John S
14-08-2013, 02:30 PM
How much ? PM me if you want.

Fivetide
14-08-2013, 03:05 PM
Wow awesome stuff ..!!!

deadmeat30
14-08-2013, 06:44 PM
So onto the milling machine. You say I'm best concentrating on a smaller but highly accurate machine. What kind of working area should I be thing about? Slightly bigger than the mould plates I'll be using? Also what accuracy can be achieved? What kind of price should I be budgeting on such build. I don't have endless amounts, but happy to be looking at few thousand.

GEOFFREY
14-08-2013, 07:56 PM
That 3d printing is awesome. I didn't spot the vulcanising press or centrifuge in the background, but you obviously had a bargain. is your centifuge bob-weight or pneumatic clamping? By flatback I meant your moulds be two sided or just have the pattern in one part of the mould (hence flatback), but I can see they will be full 3d figures. Excellent. G.

deadmeat30
14-08-2013, 08:05 PM
Yeah it does a good job. Certainly been useful for my casting. In the first picture I posted, you can just see the side of the centrifugal machine, the press is just out of shot. Yeah I'll be making full 3d models. So both sides of the moulds will have details.

Rogue
14-08-2013, 08:52 PM
Just wanted to say that your 3D modelling is impressive! If you went anywhere near your local Warhammer club with those completed models, the locals may start to worship you as a minor deity.

deadmeat30
14-08-2013, 09:24 PM
Hehe, they aren't my sculpting skills, I get good sculptors to do them. I just print and cast.

Rogue
14-08-2013, 09:56 PM
Fair enough. A well cast piece can still be a challenge, especially with that level of detail and complexity, so I'm still impressed!

deadmeat30
15-08-2013, 01:52 AM
Now is this little CNC frame a good start?

CNC Design Limited - CNC Desktop Router (http://www.ukcnc.info/forums/2012cncmachine.php)

Robin Hewitt
15-08-2013, 10:29 AM
I started down the DIY injection tool path and I got a bit stuck. I got as far as cutting simple shapes with the tiny tooling but never quite figured out the software.

It's the tiny tooling that puts in the fine detail which I found tricky, once you get down to sub mm you have to creep along and pray. You can't see what is happening because you are pumping in so much cutting fluid to clear the "chips" and keep it cold.

I ended up with a modified Roland CAMM-3 but I'm not sure that is the tool for the job.

I got a severe attack of confidence before I understood the problem.

I presume you are planning to inject at the mould break line rather than use a sprue?

Have some links...

Blackburns Metals Limited - Mould Plate - Alumec (http://www.blackburnsmetals.com/products-mould-plate-alumec.html)
DMS-Diemould | Serving mouldmakers, moulders and diecasters worldwide (http://www.dms-diemould.co.uk/)
Berger Tools (http://www.bergertools.co.uk/)

deadmeat30
15-08-2013, 01:08 PM
Thanks for the reply Robin,

Yeah its the tooling that has me most worried, i can see it being a steep learning curve!

I linked the machine above, would that be more suited? bearing in mind this machine will only be used for cutting aluminum 95x95mm plates.

Yeah the Arburg will be injecting at the mould break, im thinking of having an internal sprue on it. Its something ive goto research, but there isnt much information on the net.

Thanks for the links! I was going to use HASCO in germany for the mould blocks, but the DMS looks rather interesting, and do the size i need!

JAZZCNC
15-08-2013, 04:07 PM
I linked the machine above, would that be more suited? bearing in mind this machine will only be used for cutting aluminum 95x95mm plates.

It's an Ok-ish machine but for your needs Personally I think Not and here's why.!!

Like robin implied the Devil will be in the detail and if your after High detail like your models have shown then you'll need Small cutting tools run at very high speeds. The amount of cutting depth and step over of the tool is tiny other wise they snap like carrots also like Robin says you'll need very good cooling.

To be of any use time wise you'll need high feed rates and even then the Job cycle times can be high due to the tiny amount the cutters taking per pass or step over.
Now to minimise this you'll need to run highest feed rates possible and this is where I feel that machine will fail you has it's frame will just not be stiff enough to handle the high feed rates you'll need to achieve this to worth while standard.
Also it's linear components being lower quality Linear round rail to keep costs down (or Profit up.!!) are not designed for this level of detailed work and the accuracy just won't be there.

Also to get the best finish from ultra small tooling and tool life you'll need a very fast spindle with minimal run-out, 40,000rpm plus 60,000rpm is not uncommon on machines design for this level of detailed cutting.
The kress type spindle shown and designed for on this machine just isn't good enough in quality and duty cycle. To be honest for high quality finish will tiny tooling Even the Chinese WC type spindles are not best suited being limited to 24K rpm and while much better still only less than average run-out for this detailed level of cutting.

After looking at the renders/3d prints the Detail you are obviously looking for and used to achieving you won't achieve from this type machine.! . . . Even a milling machine while very stiff won't give you the spindle speeds you'll need.

My strong personal feeling is that you'll never be happy with low(-ish) cost off the shelf machines like the CNC Designs 2012.

So I'd say you'll be better off either building a custom machine that's very very stiff and built around your needs regards Spindle and resolution with quality components. . . . . OR . . . . Buy a dedicated machine designed for this level of miniature cutting.
( Search for Datron machines to give you some idea of what I mean.!!. . . . VERY VERY Expensive but designed just for this type of job.)

Building your own small machine to do this level of detail is very possible but not I'd say for someone with little experience or limited equipment/skills. It will require quality components and careful design with high level of build quality.
Compared to dedicated machines like Datron's it will be very cheap but still cost more than likes of 2012 machines because of the price of quality components needed. . . . . The spindle alone will probably cost the same has 2012 machine.!!!

deadmeat30
15-08-2013, 05:02 PM
Thanks for the very insightful and detailed post jazzcnc.

So it is go big, or go home? That darton machine does look pretty amazing. What's the kind of price is involved with that?

The custom route seems the way to go, but as you say, its something for someone with a good background in machining and a sound knowledge in CNC machine. Of which I have neither :(.

I still think in the long run of things, getting the CNC machine will be cheaper than getting the moulds cut by a 3rd party time after time.

I guess time will be the teller. I still would love to do a CNC machine.

JAZZCNC
15-08-2013, 05:50 PM
So it is go big, or go home?

No it's GO strong and quality or go home.!!



That darton machine does look pretty amazing. What's the kind of price is involved with that?

Like John S said to me recently " If you have to ask price you can't afford it.!!! Don't think I could afford a Datron catalogue never mind machine.!!. . .Lol

Building your own CNC machine is still do able even if you haven't got the tools, it will just mean a bit more money has you'll need to pay others to help make parts for you. I make loads of stuff for folks who haven't got the tools but yet build perfectly fine machines.

The design will be important to you because you need maximum rigidity. The fact you only need small cutting area makes this so much easier.
Far easier to build a strong machine when small then it's just a case of choosing the correct components to match to it.

The knowledge to design correct machine is all here on the forum you just have to look thru the threads and soak up the knowledge.
If you do decide to DIY then straight away start a build thread and start asking questions not matter how daft they sound, we will help and guide you to the correct result.!!. . . . . JUST DON'T RUSH IT.

Robin Hewitt
15-08-2013, 06:02 PM
Yeah the Arburg will be injecting at the mould break, im thinking of having an internal sprue on it. Its something ive goto research, but there isnt much information on the net.


You are probably wondering how to size your gates but don't realise it yet...
.
The troubleshooter: Sizing the gate | PlasticsToday.com (http://www.plasticstoday.com/articles/troubleshooter-sizing-gate)
.
Do you fancy a collaboration, like you figure out the software I cut some aluminium for you? I got close, I think I understand the problems.

deadmeat30
15-08-2013, 10:31 PM
Thanks for the advice JAZZCNC. I'll be spending tonight looking through the build logs.

Great link thanks robin, what's the software your using? Love messing about and learning stuff.

Regards,

Alan

Robin Hewitt
15-08-2013, 11:42 PM
what's the software your using? Love messing about and learning stuff.

Hi Alan
.
Most software,when handed a mesh, converts it to a series of straight parallel lines. It does one line at a time and jiggles in the Z axis. Then you rotate your lines through 90 degrees and do it again, maybe even stick in a 45 degree pass to try and get rid of the pointy bits. If the software doesn't allow a tool change this can mean cutting the entire she-bang with your tiniest tool. Yawn.
.
I think Cam Bam is the best of the cheap packages because he will rough and water line a mesh, he may even check for collisions with the back of the tool. I think he offers some kind of suck it and see before you buy.
.
Robin

deadmeat30
16-08-2013, 02:05 AM
Thanks Robin, I downloaded an evaluation software from the site. Time to have a play about with it!

JAZZCNC
16-08-2013, 03:40 AM
Most software,when handed a mesh, converts it to a series of straight parallel lines. It does one line at a time and jiggles in the Z axis. Then you rotate your lines through 90 degrees and do it again, maybe even stick in a 45 degree pass to try and get rid of the pointy bits. If the software doesn't allow a tool change this can mean cutting the entire she-bang with your tiniest tool. Yawn.
.
I think Cam Bam is the best of the cheap packages because he will rough and water line a mesh, he may even check for collisions with the back of the tool. I think he offers some kind of suck it and see before you buy.

Robins hit on a very good point here Alan, software for good high detail 3D work is very hard to find and can be stupidly expensive when you get to packages with better toolpath strategies designed for such detailed 3D work. Desk Proto is about the best reasonably priced software I now of for this type of work and it's designed with mould making in mind.
DeskProto: 3D CNC machining for non-machinists. STL file milling for any CNC milling machine (http://www.deskproto.com/)

deadmeat30
16-08-2013, 03:12 PM
Thanks for the tips, ill have a look into software and find something i like using :D

oldnumberseven
12-02-2014, 08:44 AM
Hi
It is great to find someone that has an Arburg C4. I have had one for about 15 years and make some small clear plastic lightbars for model police cars. This is mostly a hobby, but it is fun to turn out parts and make a little money. As you are finding out the most challenging part is making molds. My molds are very simple compared to what you have in mind. Several of my molds were made by using a 3X size pattern and a Deckel 3D pantograph. This is old technology but for my molds worked very well. I think the advise concerning very high speed/expensive machines is correct for the type of detail you want. Please keep us informed on how you make out making your molds, Good Luck
JD

deadmeat30
04-05-2014, 11:26 PM
Hey everyone,

Well an update, im still very much wanting to give this project a go! I think DIY route is way way above my capability level, as i have no machinery to create accurate parts. So i think to carry this on, ill need to find a mentor, to guide me in the ways of it all. lol.