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Want2build1
24-10-2013, 10:04 AM
Hi
I know the basics, and have built an MDF router machine and used whatever I could get hold of.

I'm now looking to build a bigger machine ... probably 4x4' possibly 8x4... to cut upto 18mm thick MDF

The info I'm after is Chinese suppliers, and their reliability/reputation ???

I'm looking to buy a water-cooled spindle from chia ...

where should I buy the controller ?

I'm located in Coventry. I hear there is a Ally channel supplier in Hinkley ? are they any good ? price ? quality ?

I'm thinking R&P from WMH Transmissions Ltd - Home
Any feedback on them ?

Rails and bearings ??? UK or Chia ? any advise where to buy from ?


Thanks all ... and please tell me if there is a better place to ask these questions :)
Thanks
Richard

asbo
24-10-2013, 12:41 PM
I'm looking to buy a water-cooled spindle from chia ...
IMO its best to buy one from the UK because once you add the import duty at around 20 - 30 they work out about the same, plus should ever need to return it it'll be easier. I'm saying that as someone who bought one from China :highly_amused:
227 from China (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/80-diameter-2-2kw-WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-AND-INVERTER-VFD-DRIVE-four-bearing-/261050649575?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Contr ol_ET&hash=item3cc7d4cbe7) + VAT or import or whatever its called.
250 from the UK (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WATER-COOLED-MOTOR-SPINDLE-2-2KW-MATCHING-INVERTER-d8-/220724879717?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Contr ol_ET&hash=item33643a6165)

jcb121
24-10-2013, 02:32 PM
Try Fred from bst automation, as it maybe a bit cheaper then using PayPal with chai. As for spindles, I got mine from chai when I bought my rails and such and I got charged 20 for the lot

Jonathan
24-10-2013, 07:37 PM
Try Fred from bst automation, as it maybe a bit cheaper then using PayPal with chai

I tend to agree. If in doubt, buy from aliexpress.

Want2build1
24-10-2013, 07:41 PM
Thanks
The double vote is worth much more than 2x a single vote :)
I will look at them both

Richard

JAZZCNC
24-10-2013, 08:39 PM
I tend to agree. If in doubt, buy from aliexpress.

Well I don't agree at all.!! . . . . . Why would you risk buying from an unknown supplier on Ali express to save 20-50 max when you can buy from Chai who is trusted and provides quick service. . . . .Your already saving plenty of money over UK suppliers so it's unnecessary risk IMO unless supplier is known quick reliable willing to replace faulty or damaged stuff and the saving worth it.
To save 20 I wouldn't bother and have piece of mind Chai will sort any issues if they arise.!!

EddyCurrent
24-10-2013, 09:00 PM
Why would you risk buying from an unknown supplier on Ali express to save 20-50 max when you can buy from Chai who is trusted and provides quick service

I bought my ball screws from Chai and they arrived okay but one difference is I had to pay up front for the stuff whereas with Ali express the supplier gets paid only when the stuff has arrived and you are happy.

Jonathan
24-10-2013, 09:09 PM
My comment was meant more in general, hence why I didn't specify 'when buying ballscrews'. I have no problems with ordering from Chai, as his prices tend to be reasonable, however if I see something cheaper on aliexpress I'll get it as (due to the reason Eddy just mentioned) the risk is negligible and I see no reason to refuse to change supplier and miss out.

JAZZCNC
24-10-2013, 09:26 PM
My comment was meant more in general, hence why I didn't specify 'when buying ballscrews'. I have no problems with ordering from Chai, as his prices tend to be reasonable, however if I see something cheaper on aliexpress I'll get it as (due to the reason Eddy just mentioned) the risk is negligible and I see no reason to refuse to change supplier and miss out.

Ok must confess I haven't used Ali express and thou I had seen about not paying until after arriving didn't realise this was All suppliers on Ali express.! . . Is this the case and it's all suppliers.?

If so then agreed worth a look if enough saving but I'm a big believer in loyalty and know the value in building up a relationship with a supplier and in Chai's case this has helped me and few others in the past.!

On same note for one off builds then I can see the temptation to save the Dosh.!!

Jonathan
24-10-2013, 09:31 PM
Ok must confess I haven't used Ali express and thou I had seen about not paying until after arriving didn't realise this was All suppliers on Ali express.! . . Is this the case and it's all suppliers.?

As far as I know that's the system for all suppliers. I've bought from 5 different suppliers there and each time only paid when I confirmed that the order arrived in good condition.

JAZZCNC
24-10-2013, 09:36 PM
As far as I know that's the system for all suppliers. I've bought from 5 different suppliers there and each time only paid when I confirmed that the order arrived in good condition.

Ok that's sounding good then, I'll bare this in mind has I'm going to be sourcing some Servos and ATC spindle soon.!

EddyCurrent
24-10-2013, 09:37 PM
AliExpress Buyer Protection Home (http://www.aliexpress.com/buyerprotection/index.html)

Want2build1
24-10-2013, 09:58 PM
so . off topic a bit ... is AliExpress sort of like paypal ? a payment gateway with protection ?

EddyCurrent
24-10-2013, 10:02 PM
Yes I think that's how I see it but maybe more like ebay and paypal combined

"AliExpress brings you quality products at wholesale prices on even the smallest orders. Part of Alibaba.com, AliExpress offers minimum orders as low as 1 item, buyer protection and express delivery with full tracking. AliExpress currently hosts more than 5,900 different types of products from over 44 different industries, including the following: Apparel & Accessories, Automobiles & Motorcycles, Mobile Phones, Computer Hardware & Software, Electronics, Health & Beauty, Lights & Lighting, Luggage, Bags & Cases, Security & Protection, Shoes & Accessories, Toys & Hobbies, Watches & Jewelry and Wedding Supplies."

jcb121
24-10-2013, 10:20 PM
I've become a bit of an ali whore lately as I have more patience than money :-)

It just sells eveything and I love it. Things are always sent recorded and haven't had a bad experience yet.

John S
25-10-2013, 10:25 AM
One thing to remember with the Portsmouth sellers is that Portsmouth is only a bonded warehouse that ships out.
All queries / problems are dealt with in China and they can piss you about starting with the
"Send us a video of the part not working " ??? It's a valve for fooks sake it doesn't move when working.

Then they wait in the hopes you get pissed off and then when you think you are getting somewhere you get

"Send us a video of the part not working "

You have to cost into the savings, can I repair this if needed. I bought a laser cutter and the answer was yes given that the most expensive part was cheaper to bu that what a machine in the UK cost.

Spindles ? no way. There are about 6 or 7 companies out there making and selling spindles but loads selling them, where do you think the seconds go and returns ?

Too much unchecked stuff floating about.

Want2build1
25-10-2013, 10:53 AM
ok ... so can I be more specific :) I'll ask about one component at a time ...

Any recommendations on where to buy a spindle ?
What power should I consider for cutting MDF ? (and as with most people , there is that desire to cut ally ! lol )
(I'm currently using a 500w Bosch Router)
should I get the VFD with the spindle ?
Stateside, they seem to like the Hitachi controlers ?

EddyCurrent
25-10-2013, 11:25 AM
Whatever spindle you get I would highly recommend one with an ER20 collet so you can use up to 1/2" shank cutters.
As you will be aware there is a wide choice and even wider price range so it might be easier to set your price range first then see what's available within it.
I know the 1.5kw and 2.2kw Chinese spindles are popular and come packaged with a VFD all at a very good price, myself I went for an Elte spindle and an ABB inverter
because I want it to work and keep on working. The spindle was expensive but what I'll save building the machine myself will cover it and as it's for the wife and me to use
I thought we were worth it.

Jonathan
25-10-2013, 01:46 PM
Any recommendations on where to buy a spindle ?

Yes.


What power should I consider for cutting MDF ? (and as with most people , there is that desire to cut ally ! lol )

Depends how fast you want to cut it, but generally people get the 2.2kW spindle simply because it has the larger collet size.


should I get the VFD with the spindle ?

Yes. I don't know anyone whose broken one in normal use.

Want2build1
25-10-2013, 08:05 PM
Whilst were on the subject of spindles ... I keep forgetting, I have a Freud 2.2kw router 1/2" collet with speed control, that I haven't used for years ! ... what are the advantages of a water cooled spindle, over using a big router ?

JAZZCNC
25-10-2013, 08:45 PM
Whilst were on the subject of spindles ... I keep forgetting, I have a Freud 2.2kw router 1/2" collet with speed control, that I haven't used for years ! ... what are the advantages of a water cooled spindle, over using a big router ?

Depends what your cutting.? If just cutting wood profiles etc then power wise probably not much. If doing detailed work or cutting hard materials or jobs taking many hours like 3D work then they have few big advantages.
First run-out of the spindle is much less, second the bearings and general spindle body are much stronger so handle high cutting forces better. Because they are WC they have No duty cycle to speak of so can run for days without stopping, routers will fry if you try to run them for hours without stopping. Even industrial routers don't like running for 20+ hrs non stop where has WC will happily do 20hrs without getting more than warm.

Not so big deal but they are also very quite compared to a router.

Want2build1
25-10-2013, 09:08 PM
hmmm... I think I might use the router at 1st ... spindle later :) I had completely forgot I had it !
Also, you say quiet ... surely the cutting is the noisiest bit ?

So ... next ... rails and bearings ... I don't want unsupported. Round is much cheaper than hiwin type.. Anything wrong with supported round rails and bearings ?

Recommended suppliers ?

routercnc
25-10-2013, 10:13 PM
You can never get away from the cutting noise, whatever you use (unless you design an enclosure), but a spindle will still be quieter overall as noise from the motor is so much lower. I used to have a Bosch 900 Watt router but switching to a WC spindle made the workshop so much quieter.

Another advantage of a spindle over some routers (the plunge type with the handles out the sides) is the ease of mounting and stiffness of the connection to the Z axis.

If you ever take the plunge (!) and switch to a spindle I promise you will never look back.

I think you can make a very capable machine with supported rail, so don't worry too much about that. I would however recommend looking at used profile rail for the Z axis (80 = 300mm pair from FA Systems on ebay for example).

John S
25-10-2013, 11:15 PM
Noise, or rather lack of it. Reliability because they have no brushes or comutators to wear out

Jonathan
25-10-2013, 11:51 PM
Whilst were on the subject of spindles ... I keep forgetting, I have a Freud 2.2kw router 1/2" collet with speed control, that I haven't used for years ! ... what are the advantages of a water cooled spindle, over using a big router ?

Rigidity - most likely bigger bearings so the stiffness is higher.

JAZZCNC
26-10-2013, 12:16 AM
Also, you say quiet ... surely the cutting is the noisiest bit ?

I get asked this all the time and yes obviously the cutting creates noise but it's only a proportion of the total noise and the WC spindle is whisper quite in comparison to any router so the total noise is much less.!! . . . .Put it this way I can stand next to my machine when it's cutting aluminium and still have conversation on the phone without shouting.!!. . . Try that with any router even when not cutting.!

Honestly no hand held router, even industrial can match these spindles in any department.!

Want2build1
26-10-2013, 02:07 PM
ok... I agree that a spindle is better than a router.
Having said that ... a spindle is an easy upgrade.
Now I've remembered my big router, I think I'll use that initially and upgrade to a spindle later.
So ... next ... linear rails guidways bearings ...
I'm again looking for a budget option, but one I wont regret :)
I think Ideally I would like to be unconventional and build an 8x4 capable machine, with the gantry being 8' :topsy_turvy:
I think, in a limited sized workshop, this would give the easiest loading of the 8x4 sheets... especially the silly heavy 18mm MrMDF !

Boyan Silyavski
27-10-2013, 10:23 AM
BST automation on aliexpress / Fred/ is not an unknown supplier. I bought from him before a month all ball screws and Hiwin rails and carriages. Everything was machined to 0.01 tolerances and fit perfectly. All rails,carriages,ball screws, nuts and supports cost me what here would cost me only the carriages. Split your purchace when paying and avoid customs stating the half amount only. No problem from their side.

Dont start your build until you have all the before mentioned including spindle mount, as many times they will send you whatever they have at hand, meaning the ball screw housing and spindle mount different from the pictures.
Yesterday had to redraw my build entirely, due to this. A small price to pay.

Spindle is not same as router. I would like to see somebody cutting soft plastic and aluminum with router, the way that can be cut with spindle. No doubt for me there. There are other benefits like trip when problem, speed control directly from CAD/CAM and so on, worth the money. 2 mistakes on a expensive material that could be avoided by the spindle PC communication will pay you the spindle.

Want2build1
28-10-2013, 04:48 PM
Dont start your build until you have all the before mentioned including spindle mount, as many times they will send you whatever they have at hand,

??? should I be concerned at this ??? !!!

Boyan Silyavski
28-10-2013, 05:01 PM
??? should I be concerned at this ??? !!!

Dont know, you decide. Finished my drawing in Sketchup and ordered everything. As i have some laser cut pieces i decided not to order them until i have all here to measure.

While all the ballscrews were machined to 0.01 and fit perfectly in the supports, they send me ball nut housings which they had at hand, so had to redraw a whole day. That affected the Z width also and the Z distance from gantry, so had to redraw there too. Also the spindle bracket i bought is quite bigger than at the ebay listings picture and wider by 20mm, so i could have bought 1 only, not 2, and if my Z was ready it would not fit, because of the fixing holes situation.

I mean, make the bead structure, but careful after that until you have the main parts at hand.

Want2build1
28-10-2013, 05:16 PM
I am concerned that if you order, and they just send you what they have , what happens if you need a spare/replacement ? will it fit ? or not ?

Boyan Silyavski
28-10-2013, 05:28 PM
I am concerned that if you order, and they just send you what they have , what happens if you need a spare/replacement ? will it fit ? or not ?

Dont worry about that.

I am talking about ballnut housings and brackets. You will never need to replace that.

About the spindle, the only thing you could possibly replace there, are the 4 bearings, they sell them cheap at aliexpress. However possibly one day would be cheaper to buy a new one, depends how you value your time. 4 bearings cost ~20eur . I messed once with my spindle, but only because was desperate to finish an order, and because i want a bigger one, otherwise i would have simply bought a new one. Still works like a beast though.

About the ballscrews and nuts, i doubt you will ever need to replace any of them, but they are standard.

However things like HDT belts, HDT pulleys and so, i always buy extra, cause if i mess one, then have to pay extra shipping, they are cheap.

Want2build1
28-10-2013, 05:39 PM
Thanks for your reply ... good info :)

Want2build1
11-11-2013, 11:14 PM
ok
I'm going to buy this one ... as it came up cheapest ... and they have a big feedback ... ?

Fingers crossed ...

Wholesale MATCHING 2.2KW INVERTER + ER20 SPINDLE MOTOR NEW update KM2045-in Other Machinery from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wholesale-MATCHING-2-2KW-INVERTER-ER20-SPINDLE-MOTOR-NEW-update/619205320.html)

Boyan Silyavski
11-11-2013, 11:23 PM
ok
I'm going to buy this one ... as it came up cheapest ... and they have a big feedback ... ?

Fingers crossed ...

Wholesale MATCHING 2.2KW INVERTER + ER20 SPINDLE MOTOR NEW update KM2045-in Other Machinery from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wholesale-MATCHING-2-2KW-INVERTER-ER20-SPINDLE-MOTOR-NEW-update/619205320.html)

At ebay there are for the same money or just a bit more, shipped from UK warehouse. Why don't you check?

Want2build1
11-11-2013, 11:31 PM
too late :) ... paid :/

any way .. I'd like to try out the "ali" process and see if it works out ok .. the rails and bearings seem very cheap ! :)

one of my routers spun a bearing today (I have a couple of backups).. so it made the spindle issue more urgent :)

Want2build1
05-12-2013, 09:47 PM
so ... to bring this thread back ...

I've bought a 2.2 wc spindle off of Ali

Linear rails/bearings next ..

anything to avoid ? or just go by price ?

Thanks

Boyan Silyavski
06-12-2013, 01:03 PM
Avoid sellers without rating.

Stick to trusted sellers. /Chai or Fred/

Avoid TBR or SBR rails, buy square supported. Chinese, TBI, Hiwin,THK, Rexroth, / ordered by price/. TBI or Hiwin are the usual choice.

The 15 size are strong enough but the usual choice is 20.

Want2build1
07-12-2013, 09:37 PM
I had no reply on my other thread ...

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/marketplace-discussion/6779-who-has-used-aliexpress.html

but I'm having trouble with Ali ... and there is no way I am providing them with my full digital identity !!!!!!