Need help with a sensorless vector VFD and 2.2kw motor.

[kajuk]

Hi,

I just received this sensorless vector VFD: HUANYANG Vector Control Drive SL series SL 222EE 2.2KW 220V 3HP VFD inverters 2200watt frequency converters spindle inverter-in Inverters & Converters from Electrical Equipment & Supplies on Aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HUANYANG-Vector-Control-Drive-SL-series-SL-222EE-2-2KW-220V-3HP-VFD-inverters-2200watt-frequency/1269410690.html) (the link to the manual: http://www.soonwell.com/ebay_file/user_manual/Inverter-Manual.pdf ) and I'm having problems setting it up correctly with my Chinese 2.2kw spindle.

First I tried to set it up for the sensorless vector mode.
After resetting to default settings I set the following settings:
P0.00 -> 0 (Sensorless vector control)
P0.01 -> 1 (trimpot as frequency command source)
P0.13 -> 400 (Maximum output frequency)
P0.14 -> 400 (Upper frequency limit)
P0.15 -> 120 (Lower frequency limit)
PB.02 -> 2.2 (Motor rated power)
PB.03 -> 400 (Motor rated frequency)
PB.04 -> 24000 (Motor rated speed(RPM))
PB.05 -> 220 (Motor rated voltage)
PB.06 ->10 (Motor rated current)

Then I ran autotuning (PB.00 -> 1)
After autotuning finishes I try to start it and it does 2-5 jerky turns and then stops. Changing speed (frequency) with keys or trimpot doesn't do anything.

Then I tried to configure it in the V/F mode.

After resetting to default settings again I set the following settings:
P0.00 -> 0 (V/F mode)
P0.01 -> 1 (trimpot as frequency command source)
P0.13 -> 400 (Maximum output frequency)
P0.14 -> 400 (Upper frequency limit)
P0.15 -> 120 (Lower frequency limit)
PB.02 -> 2.2 (Motor rated power)
PB.03 -> 400 (Motor rated frequency)
PB.04 -> 24000 (Motor rated speed(RPM))
PB.05 -> 220 (Motor rated voltage)
PB.06 ->10 (Motor rated current)

With these setting it works at maximum RPM (24000) but when I lower the speed with the trimpot it slows down and then the speed begins to oscillate slightly, current rises from 1.8A to ~7A and then the inverter trips with error OC3 (overcurrent when constant speed running).

Any help or advise will be greatly appreciated!

[EddyCurrent]

Is this thread any use ?

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/routers-spindles-controllers/5814-2-2kw-chinese-spindles-info-setup-advice-more.html

[kajuk]

Hardly so. It discusses a different vfd model line with different settings and without sensorless vector control.
I have such (V/F control only) vfd model as well and it works fine.

[EddyCurrent]

This is for Vector Speed mode only.

I've been having problems myself with a different drive and spindle but this is partly how it was solved.

My spindle motor plate said;

V=220
A=9.5
Speed=24000
Freq.=400
kW=2.2

So that's what I put in the VFD, however I was advised to change the VFD parameters to this by the manufacturers and it worked;

V=110
A=9.5
Speed=12000
Freq.=200
kw=1.1

It's to do with field weakening.
Also it would only work with the VFD switching frequency set to 16kHz
Make sure accel and decel are not less than 5 seconds, mine liked 10 seconds best, now run the auto tune.

[kajuk]

Do you use your vfd/spindle in vector mode?

[EddyCurrent]

Yes, it looks like I was editing my post while you posted in the meantime, these settings are for vector speed mode only.

[kajuk]

What type of vfd you have? In mine, after running autotuning I get 0.1 in both Motor leakage and Motor mutual inductance. I can manually change Motor mutual inductance but it allows me to change Motor leakage inductance only between 0.0 and 0.1 although the manual says it can be changed between 0.1 and 6553.5
What inductance do you get after autotuning?

[EddyCurrent]

I'm using an ABB drive, it does not have those parameters. As I understand it, because of the way these spindles are built they are compact and have low inductance, this can confuse the autotune. One idea offered to me was to connect an output choke to increase the inductance.

[kajuk]

Hm, interesting. I will try your suggestions. Thanks!
Is anybody using the same line or similar vfd? Apparently there is bunch of vfds from China with similar settings naming. They probably use the same hardware/software base.

[kajuk]

Sadly, it didn't help. The best it does in the svc mode is that it rotates with jerks with 1-5rpms stopping intermittently regardless of speed/freq I set with the trimpot.
So it doesn't work in svc mode at all and trips in v/f mode if frequency is below 120Hz.
The same motor works fine with my Huanyang v/f only inverter from ~1hz up to 400Hz which means that the motor itself is fine.

[kajuk]

I managed to solve the issue with the V/F mode. There is are PD.00-05 settings in the VFD which are not mentioned in the original manual but described in a manual for a similar VFD (CHE100): http://platforma.astor.com.pl/files/getfile/id/4040
Setting PD.03 (Amplitude restraining oscillation) from the default 5000 to 0 lets the drive to go all the way down to 0Hz without tripping. Of course there is little torque left when rpms are below 6000.
Still no luck with vector mode.

[EddyCurrent]

This was the report for my problem, but it may be no use to you unfortunately.

http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/gantry-router-build-logs/6565-ready-steady-eddy-14.html#post54303

[EddyCurrent]

Did you read section 5.2.4 of the manual ?

It's strange how the trimpot works in v/f but does not seem to work in vector mode.
Also the motor speed is an issue. It appears that spindle motors are rated at the theoretical speed of 24000 rpm but this is not the actual speed, a thing called 'slip' has to be taken into account.
The manufacturers of my spindle say the slip is about 4% of full speed which works out at 23040 rpm (they said they used a figure of 23100) so this is the speed you should enter for parameter PB.04

[kajuk]

Did you read section 5.2.4 of the manual ?

Yes, this is what I follow when doing autotuning.



It's strange how the trimpot works in v/f but does not seem to work in vector mode.

The inverter kinda responds to the trimpot and increases/decreases frequency but the spindle doesn't follow it. Even if I set minimal allowed frequency to 400, the spindle doesn't want to know and still jerks around a few rpms.



Also the motor speed is an issue. It appears that spindle motors are rated at the theoretical speed of 24000 rpm but this is not the actual speed, a thing called 'slip' has to be taken into account.
The manufacturers of my spindle say the slip is about 4% of full speed which works out at 23040 rpm (they said they used a figure of 23100) so this is the speed you should enter for parameter PB.04
Do you think such a small difference may have an effect? Even when I tried your suggested settings (1.1kw/200Hz/12000rpm/110V/9.5A) it didn't make a much difference. I'll try anyway.

[EddyCurrent]

Did you try the static autotune ? PB.00 = 2

Also you should set P0.15 to 0.0 (Lower frequency limit)

[kajuk]

Did you try the static autotune ? PB.00 = 2

Yes, I did. doesn't help.



Also you should set P0.15 to 0.0 (Lower frequency limit)
It is set to 0.

[EddyCurrent]

Anything here ?

Router / Spindle and VFD [Archive] - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net! Over 300,000 members and growing. (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/f-658.html)

[kajuk]

No:(
Seems like I'm the only owner of this inverter beyond China:)

[EddyCurrent]

Well it was the same with me with the ABB drive, they had no experience of using it with a high speed spindle, the difference was they were able to send an engineer at no cost to myself and he sorted it out in a morning.

[EddyCurrent]

How are you putting the drive into RUN P0.02 ?
Make a note of the setting for P0.06 then change it to 15Khz
Make sure PB.01 is set to 0 (E mode)
Are the PA group values set to default ?

If this is still no good put P0.06 back to what it was.

[kajuk]

How are you putting the drive into RUN P0.02 ? From the keypads (P0.02=0)
Make a note of the setting for P0.06 then change it to 15Khz Tried both default 8kHz and the maximum 15kHz.
Make sure PB.01 is set to 0 (E mode) Tried both E and P mode. No difference so left it at default 0 (E mode)
Are the PA group values set to default ? They are left at defaults since changing them didn't make any difference. Btw, after trying to change PA.06 I cannot return it to default. The manual says it can be changed between 50% and 200% but I can set it only to 200 or 500. There are also other "quirks" I noticed:
1. P0.05 (Dec time) is dependent on P0.15 (lowest freq), P0.05 cannot be set lower than P0.15*10 - if I set P0.15 to 120Hz, I cannot set deceleration time lower than 1200s.
2. PB.09 (Leakage inductance) manually can only be set to 0.0 or 0.1
3. P3.09 has no effect on changing frequency using keypad - it always in 0.01Hz steps.
Seems like the firmware is quite buggy.

[EddyCurrent]

Is your spindle motor a 2 pole asynchronous type ?

[kajuk]

It's a common Chinese 2.2kw spindle: 2.2KW WATER COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR HIGH SPEED HIGH EXACLTY HIGH EFFECT WITH POLISHING PROCESS CAN IMPROVE MOTOR CONCENTRICITY-in Machine Tool Spindle from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-2KW-WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-HIGH-SPEED-HIGH-EXACLTY-HIGH-EFFECT-WITH-POLISHING-PROCESS-CAN/1036983208.html)
Have no idea if it is a 2 or 4 pole type.

[EddyCurrent]

It probably is.
I have another machine with this motor fitted TEC Electric – IE2 2.2kW (3HP) 2 Pole AC Induction Motor 230V or 400V B3 Foot Mount - 90L Frame - AC Motors (Three Phase) (http://www.inverterdrive.com/group/Motors-AC/TECA2-90L1-2-B3-IE2-High-Efficiency-2-Pole-Motor/)
My ABB drive worked great with this motor in vector mode but it would not work with the high speed spindle so the only other thing I can think of is
to connect a standard motor similar to the one in the link to it and see if that will run in vector mode.
If it does then at least you know the VFD is okay but it's either not designed for the high speed spindle in vector mode or it's a combination of parameter changes but which ones I don't know.

[kajuk]

I only have another high speed (400Hz/1.5kw) motor to test with and the pattern was the same. Sadly, I cannot afford to buy a motor just for a test.

[EddyCurrent]

I'm sorry then I can't think of anything else to try at the moment.

[kajuk]

To be honest I wasn't expecting so much attention to my problem, so big thanks!
What puzzles me is that when you google for "vfd vector" you get tons of messages on CNC related forums advising to get a vector vfd over v/f for spindle motors but I can hardly find anyone sharing their success with vector mode let alone showing steps how they did it or any actual settings. Strange.

[kajuk]

Funny, look what you get in 6th link when you google for "vfd vector spindle problem": https://www.google.co.uk/#q=vfd+vector+spindle+problem

[vre]

Try to contact chinese company Hyria Electrical Co.Ltd (http://www.hy-electrical.com/index_e.asp)
Have you connected a braking resistor ?
Perhaps autotuning in vector mode does not work correct try to set the values manually.
I dont know if this solve the problem...

I have same type of vfd SL-440EE but i dont have high speed spindle motor to try.
I have only 3 phase asynchronous motor 1400 rpm.
In my vfd some electronic components are missing from pcb max485 ic / some connectors / 1 igtb / dome smd reistors .
Perhaps this pcb is the same and for bigger model and missing components are for higher power vfd.
I have soldered a missing max485 to have rs485 connection.

[EddyCurrent]

vre,
can you run your motor in vector mode ?
If yes, what are the values ?
The braking resistor should not matter for this problem.

[audioandy]

My understanding of vector mode it will only work at 50Hz and below.

Try setting your max frequency to 50Hz then see if the vector mode works.

Andy

[EddyCurrent]

Andy,
I don't know about this particular VFD but the ABB I'm using goes up to 400 Hz in vector mode, in fact the reference signal on the keypad changes from Hz in v/f mode to RPM in vector mode.

[audioandy]

Andy,
I don't know about this particular VFD but the ABB I'm using goes up to 400 Hz in vector mode, in fact the reference signal on the keypad changes from Hz in v/f mode to RPM in vector mode.

Hi Eddy

That's interesting does that mean you get high torque at the bottom end of the frequency range?

If so can you let me have the part number please.

Regards

Andy

[EddyCurrent]

ABB ACS355 2.2kW 230V 1ph to 3ph - Vector Control AC Inverter Drive Speed Controller - AC Inverter Drives (230V) (http://www.inverterdrive.com/group/AC-Inverter-Drives-230V/ABB-ACS355-01E-09A8-2-2200W-230V-1ph/)
ABB ACS-CP-C Basic Control Panel (Keypad) for ACS310, ACS350, ACS355 and ACS550 Inverters (+J404) - Accessories for AC Drives (http://www.inverterdrive.com/group/Accessories/64739000-ACS-CP-C-Basic-Control-Panel-Keypad-J404/)

There's vector torque mode and vector speed mode, you can download the manual from above web site.
Should give full load torque at zero speed.

Be aware though it didn't work right out of the box, see here http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/gantry-router-build-logs/6565-ready-steady-eddy-14.html#post54303

I have two of these, the other drives a standard 2.2kW 3000 rpm motor in vector mode and this does work out of the box.

This is a great read too.
http://http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot201.nsf/veritydisplay/771cd1d59737abfac1257b0f0046ac22/$file/TechnicalGuideBook_EN_3AFE64514482_RevG.pdf (http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot201.nsf/veritydisplay/771cd1d59737abfac1257b0f0046ac22/$file/TechnicalGuideBook_EN_3AFE64514482_RevG.pdf)

[kajuk]

I've made some progress in vector mode using EddyCurrent's suggestions.
What I did:
Set PB.02 -> 2.2 (Motor rated power)
Set PB.03 -> 100 instead of 400 (Motor rated frequency)
Set PB.04 -> 6000 instead of 24000 (Motor rated speed(RPM))
Set PB.05 -> 55 instead of 220 (Motor rated voltage)
Set PB.06 ->10 (Motor rated current)

Then I run autotuning (PB.00 -> 1)
After autotuning finishes:
Set PB.08 -> 00.050 (Motor rotor resistance). This is the most important! . After autotuning it is set to 00.000.
Then, without touching PB.02 (power rating. if changed, it resets all detected tuning parameters):
Set PB.03 -> 400 (Motor rated frequency)
Set PB.04 -> 24000 (Motor rated speed(RPM))
Set PB.05 -> 220 (Motor rated voltage)

After that it seems to work in vector mode. A few notes though:
1. It won't spin high than around 14000rpm (~233Hz). When approaching this speed or going beyond, it oscillate for a few seconds around 14000rpm and then steadies itself at this speed.
1. I can feel it increases torque at low rpm. When in v/f mode at ~1000rpm I can easily stop the spindle with my hand (in a glove), when in vector mode it feels like I have to use 2-3 times more force to stop the spindle. Is this how much it should be expected from vector mode?

[EddyCurrent]

An improvement but not quite there.
Yes you should get full torque from zero to full speed.
Change PB.04 to 5775 and see if that makes a difference.
P0.06 should be 15Khz

[kajuk]

An improvement but not quite there.
Yes you should get full torque from zero to full speed.

By this, do you mean I shouldn't be able to stop the spindle with a hand at any low rpm?



Change PB.04 to 5775 and see if that makes a difference.
I guess before running autotuning. I'll try.

[EddyCurrent]

By this, do you mean I shouldn't be able to stop the spindle with a hand at any low rpm?

2.2kw is not that powerful, I've not tried it but I imagine with a good grip you could stop it at low speed.


I guess before running autotuning. I'll try.

Yes, as you know as soon as you change the motor parameters you have to do the autotune again.

[kajuk]

Just tried it but it didn't improve beyond what I already got. Also to note is that I can set speed between around 800rpm and 14000rpm. Below 800rpm it just stops. At ~1000rpm the current is ~3A, goes up to around ~5A at ~10000rpm and goes down to ~4A at ~14000rpm.

[EddyCurrent]

The current is similar to mine.
I've just noticed you did not ratio the kW, you should set PB.02 to 0.55kW
If that does nothing then ABB at first were thinking about putting parameters in as if the motor was 50Hz 3000rpm but then realised this would not work so they opted for 50% settings 200Hz 12000rpm and it worked. I'm thinking therefore that you could try other ratios that are closer to the 50% settings.
e.g. 7200rpm 120Hz 66V 0.66kW

[kajuk]

I cannot change PB.02. If I do and then after autotuning I change it back to 2.2, it resets all motor parameters detected during autotuning and as I mentioned before, PB0.09 (leakage inductance) cannot be set manually.
How much down in rpm can you go with your ABB drive in vector mode?

[EddyCurrent]

Okay, but I would still try other ratios of the other parameters trying to get nearer 50%, as long as you apply the same ratio to all motor parameters.
With the ABB it goes down to zero.

[Processor]

Hi,

I know the threat is more than a year old but I would be really interested if you have found a solution to the VFD issue...

Just bought the same set up (SL-222E + 2,2KW Spindle) a few weeks ago and so far have not managed to get it to work in vector mode. Pretty much the same issue - the spindle cranks a few turns, then stalls throwing an OC (over current) error. Fiddling around with the settings following your posts got me partial success but I forgot to note down the steps and lost all again after another auto tune...

Cheers!