PDA

View Full Version : RFQ Response Etiquette, (The Man In A Shed) vs (The Commercial Operator)



corkcnc
26-01-2014, 01:54 PM
STAFF EDIT:
This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread; the threads have been split in an effort to support the main topics of both discussions. The other discussion was a request for a quote on having a machine part made:
---

Hi Doddy,
3hrs drawing, set up and machine, £75, £10 material (finished item 24mm thick) and £12 registered post from Cork. Two lads in front of you at the mo but I could have it in the post for you by the end of the week. PM me if you want. Sorry for the short reply, missus has me banned from working Sundays.:)
Rgds,
Noel.

Doddy
26-01-2014, 02:23 PM
Noel - Thanks for the reply - for you and others possibly reading this I'm hopeful that I've got someone set up to produce this.

For now, then - I think the request is in the process of being fulfilled.

Thanks all.

Jonathan
26-01-2014, 02:28 PM
Hi Doddy,
3hrs drawing, set up and machine, £75, £10 material (finished item 24mm thick) and £12 registered post from Cork.

So £97 total... :hororr:

If you want it done by the end of the week for £35 including postage, let me know and I'll get my friend to cut it on this machine (http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/gantry-router-build-logs/6484-sufficiently-strong-machine.html) from 25.4mm (1") thick aluminium.

Doddy
26-01-2014, 02:37 PM
Thanks Jonathon, for now I think I'm sorted, although if there's any problems with plan A, I'll be certain to get in touch.

corkcnc
26-01-2014, 08:56 PM
So £97 total... :hororr:

If you want it done by the end of the week for £35 including postage, let me know and I'll get my friend to cut it on this machine (http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/gantry-router-build-logs/6484-sufficiently-strong-machine.html) from 25.4mm (1") thick aluminium.

Not here to argue but I wouldn't leave a part out the door for a machine without skimming both sides so when the part is repositioned for the drilling, that the edge face is perfectly square to flat face and all the imperfections left from when the stock was rolled are eliminated. These things all take time to get right and hence the 24mm width too.
You can argue in this case that the bore and edge are in the same plane so the angle between the flat face and bore doesn't matter a fig but if there are holes going in the side and even if they are clearance holes, I'd still rather do it spot on for when it is repositioned.
I can't comment on your mates work, I'm sure he's a damn fine machinist but I've seen too many things end up on my desk after jobs by people who have ignored the small stuff and it results in spindles misaligned and tapers on edges. Hence I'll stick to my ways and even if the skimming, clamping and clocking takes extra time, I know what goes out the door is good. If something gets past me, I know it's my fault and replace a part immediately.
I must stress that this isn't a dig at you Jonathon, I have read a lot of your posts and have a lot of respect for you - you know your stuff. But this is how I operate unless a customer requests that cost is the major factor.
Rgds,
Noel.

gavztheouch
26-01-2014, 09:43 PM
Postage and material being a fixed cost £75 is not a bad price at all for the actual work/labour. People forget the amount of time needed to complete a one off job like this + cost of tooling, electricity, machine repairs, secoundary workshop tools to buy and maintain, etc. If you kept doing jobs like this for £35 including postage and materials you would quickly go burst in a real world scenario.

Jonathan
27-01-2014, 01:50 AM
I hear what you're saying regarding maching the faces square, however I've rarely seen people mount things that require such accuracy to the spindle mount, so didn't include it in the price. Since the bed of the machine is machined/set to be in the same plane as the machine X&Y axes, then the only inaccuracy introduced would be due to the (lack of) flatness of the material, so the top of the part would be further from square than the other side. However if the customer required greater accuracy, then I would happily add £6 to the price and skim it accurately.

When I make spindle mounts in two parts, such as those for the 80mm spindle, I use the surface plate and height gauge to measure the center height of each mount to ensure they're both within 0.01mm of each other. This is also one of the reasons why the rotating ballnut mounts I've made take a long time to machine - it's important to ensure the shaft is parallel to the mounting face(s), which necessitates careful consideration of the machining order, and accurate alignment...then someone mounts it on bits of welded box section and it's a bit demoralizing!

Anyway, the reason my friend and I can afford to machine this so cheaply is lack of overheads. I just do this to fund my hobby, which is having a workshop. I therefore only charge up to £10/hour and add the cost of materials and postage. If the part is particularly interesting (i.e. complicated, like this one (http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/projects-jobs-requests/6142-prototype-keyboard-case-cnc-laser.html)) to machine I charge less per hour. So for the spindle mount, it's about 2.5 hours work plus £5 for the material (@£5.50/kg) and £4 for postage, so 2.5*10+5+4=£34 so I rounded up to £35. I don't charge for CAD as it generally only takes a few minutes and I can do it any time.
If I had to pay rent on the workshop and was doing this as a business, then yes I expect I would have to increase the hourly rate, however at least with having made the machine(s) myself I'm not having to charge lots to pay for the machine.

audioandy
29-01-2014, 08:23 PM
It might be a hobby Jon but you are earning an income which is taxable!

I have just finished filling out my tax return on earnings from my "hobby" machine.

Start to take this into account and you can soon start to see your charge out rate increasing.

Jonathan
29-01-2014, 09:29 PM
It might be a hobby Jon but you are earning an income which is taxable!

Only if I earn greater than whatever the threshold is, and I'm nowhere near that.

JAZZCNC
29-01-2014, 10:04 PM
Only if I earn greater than whatever the threshold is, and I'm nowhere near that.

Yep But it's still an offense to not declare it so you might want to consider that when your publicly posting your charging people.!!

alex wight
29-01-2014, 10:33 PM
I've registered my small business with the tax office. My guidelines are that I can earn £8600.00 profit before tax gets taken. Even if you don't reach that it doesn't matter, you must declare it. If you don't there's heavy fines given out, and even custodial sentences. Worth thinking about Jonathan.

Regards
Alex

Jonathan
29-01-2014, 10:58 PM
Thanks for informing me - I'll look into it.

blackburn mark
30-01-2014, 10:33 AM
It’s all getting a bit serious on here wtf?
This used to be a site where a helpful soul could earn a quid or two by doing a "favor" for a fellow geek.
Are we now having to stomach veiled threats fueled by sour grapes?

There is an hysteresis loop twixt “hobby” and “business"... if you "business men" wish to do "business" on a hobby site you are just going to have to face the raw fact that you are attempting to compete with people that you simply cannot compete with.... just as it should be.

Doddy
30-01-2014, 10:43 AM
As in post #3 and #5, the job has been accepted by another party. I thank all for offering perfectly valid quotes, from both hobbyist and professional perspectives. For now, though, this thread has been answered.

EddyCurrent
30-01-2014, 10:48 AM
There's an up side to it also. If you register as a 'Sole Trader' for example and submit your annual tax form, then if your outgoings are greater than your income you may be eligible for a tax refund. This is a great help if you are starting a business where you need initial outlay for machinery etc.

blackburn mark
30-01-2014, 11:05 AM
As in post #3 and #5, the job has been accepted by another party. I thank all for offering perfectly valid quotes, from both hobbyist and professional perspectives. For now, though, this thread has been answered.

With all due respect my good man, you may have filled your boots... good for you :)
There are other members who may wish to feel free to do "hobby" business and I would like to cast my vote on the larger issue.

alex wight
30-01-2014, 12:04 PM
Itís all getting a bit serious on here wtf?
This used to be a sight where a helpful soul could earn a quid or two by doing a "favor" for a fellow geek.
Are we now having to stomach veiled threats fueled by sour grapes?

There is an hysteresis loop twixt ďhobbyĒ and ďbusiness"... if you "business men" wish to do "business" on a hobby site you are just going to have to face the raw fact that you are attempting to compete with people that you simply cannot compete with.... just as it should be.


Just to clarify my position on this. I,m not running a business that incorporates a cnc machine, i do wood crafts. I pointed out what i had to do to keep me legal and also to stop back stabbers or jealous people screwing it all up for me. Giving people advice on this, is a good thing, to keep them on the correct road. Should there be a malicious person out there that wants to ruin it for the "favour" guys, then as long as your doing everything by the book you have nothing to worry about. Hope that clears things up from my point of view.

regards alex.

JAZZCNC
30-01-2014, 03:52 PM
Are we now having to stomach veiled threats fueled by sour grapes?

If that was aimed at me mark, which I think it was, then I'm dissapointed because it should be clear by now I don't do Veil anything.!!. . . . If I don't like something or someone then I'll tell you point blank to your face and not with snide remarks.!! Also if I had any intent to cause malis to anyone then I'm not stupid enough to warn them.!

Regards the sour grapes then you and others may like to know I actually have similair feeling towards Jonathan has I do my teenage son.? . . . Apart from loving my son which I clearly don't Jonathan then I have great respect and admiration for him but at same time when the arrogance and Know-it-all I-know-better attitude comes out I want to punch him in the face.! . . Lol

In this case I just wanted to warn him (and others) to shut the F@~£ up before some spineless Runt does Inform on him. . . .Oh and after that post I sent him a PM explaining more about why I said that.!!

Now crack on making pocket money which I don't have any issue with at all.

blackburn mark
30-01-2014, 05:10 PM
If that was aimed at me mark, which I think it was
You are entitled to consider my objections to be aimed at you if that is what blows your hair back Jazz but in the interest of science and curiosity... what exactly is it that drives you to see my objection as being levelled at you?

It wasn't levelled at you per-say... it was levelled at any "holier than thou" saints who would put stock in moral legitimacy claims on a hobby/favour/slack hand full of dollars under the tax radar for a bit of machining deal.

I may have the wrong end of the stick here but getting your knickers in a twist over my post leads me to suspect that there was indeed some spite in your words of advice to Jonathan.
If I am mistaken... one thousand apologies from me with love to you xxx
If I'm not mistaken... what can I say to make you feel better?

JAZZCNC
30-01-2014, 06:21 PM
You are entitled to consider my objections to be aimed at you if that is what blows your hair back Jazz but in the interest of science and curiosity... what exactly is it that drives you to see my objection as being levelled at you?

Ah ah it's been a long time since I had any hair to blow back mate.! . . . Seemed to be levelled at me because I was the one who stated to be careful when publicly posting about charging and to be honest because of the head butting Jonathan and I often part take in I could see how narrow minded folks like you could see that has sour grapes.!

Before you ask why I think you Narrow minded then this statement answers that.!


It wasn't levelled at you per-say... it was levelled at any "holier than thou" saints who would put stock in moral legitimacy claims on a hobby/favour/slack hand full of dollars under the tax radar for a bit of machining deal.

The only thing Andy, Alex and My self offered was friendly advise based on business experience and not one of us said anything about it being immoral, wrong or gave with an "holier than thou" attitude. To twist this to anything else shows narrow mindedness to me.!!


I may have the wrong end of the stick here but getting your knickers in a twist over my post leads me to suspect that there was indeed some spite in your words of advice to Jonathan.
If I am mistaken... one thousand apologies from me with love to you xxx
If I'm not mistaken... what can I say to make you feel better?

Apologies and love accepted buddy because in no way was there any or has ever been spite towards Jonathan in any post of mine that wasn't blantly obvious or said directly to him in my rantings at him. Jonathan and Me regularely exchange information or share knowledge and even components off the forum and you can rest assured if I didn't like, have respect or had spite towards Jonathan I wouldn't give him the "Stink of my dogs business" let alone my precious time.!

Nar it's abit early for guiness buts lets Chill mate and you crack on fiddling the Tax man in confidense I won't grass you or anyone else up. . .Lol

audioandy
30-01-2014, 07:35 PM
So £97 total... :hororr:

This is what triggered my post.

From corkcnc's post I have assumed rightly or wrongly that he is a legitimate company and just wanted to point out to Jon its all very well under cutting someone else's price but when you don't have overheads and don't pay your dues and demands its not fair to make out someone is charging too much.
If Jon had just posted that he could do the job for £35 and left it at that then maybe I would not have posted.

I am not having a go at Jon just wanted to point out sometimes its best just to think before you post.

Andy

blackburn mark
30-01-2014, 07:43 PM
You don't quite paint the full picture there Jazz... the trend was alluding to the hiked prices of legit trading vs the advantage, ergo unbeatable price of Jonathan's offer being not quite cricket.
Why else would the subject of legality be brought up?

What purpose does it serve in a community where fellow geeks are for all intent and purpose, machining other peoples parts for beans?

Is the tax man really going to knock on Jonathans door for his seven beans?
hobby businesses that start to make good cash go legit and become "businesses", the tax man will take a slice of your arse when there is a slice worth taking... in the mean time the hobby/business has a good argument for being left to his own devices "until" a foothold in the cash making game has found at least some hold.... this is just common sense and would be the experience of most one man manufacture start-up's despite the fact that some would "allude" to such behaviour being less than "saintly"..... oh, and to save your knicker elastic, I'm not implying that you look down your nose at such practice and I did not have you in mind when I originally objected Jazz.

And yes Andy... Jonathan's offer was a tad crass in my opinion as well... maybe we should have stomped on his ass for that.

JAZZCNC
30-01-2014, 09:06 PM
Is the tax man really going to knock on Jonathans door for his seven beans?

Yes he will and the PM I refered to was telling Jonathan that the Tax man does indeed take this serious if reported.!! . . . . Maybe doesn't go looking so much but does jump on it when reported.!!!

Reason I know this is because a friend got reported. Luckly for him my accountant is an Ex-tax inspector so helped and knew the correct procedures to lessen the impact but they still wanted there dues and where prepared to go back years to get it.!!

The Tax man is a sleeping giant . . But . . . when woken or provoked can be proper nasty bastard if thinks your taking the piss so beware.!! . . . . . Oh and compared to VAT man he's a Pussy so you better not be taking the piss past the Vat threshold.!!

Jonathan
31-01-2014, 01:50 AM
in no way was there any or has ever been spite towards Jonathan in any post of mine that wasn't blantly obvious or said directly to him in my rantings at him.

You may intend to be direct in your posts, but that doesn't mean more than you intended to say can't be inferred from them. Wether what is inferred is true or not is a different matter, but Mark is entitled to speculate.


Jonathan and Me regularely exchange information or share knowledge and even components off the forum

Yeah, about once a year :peaceful:


point out to Jon its all very well under cutting someone else's price but when you don't have overheads and don't pay your dues and demands its not fair to make out someone is charging too much.

Have I not paid some dues? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't owe any tax due to making parts, as my total income this year (from CNC parts or otherwise) was well below the threshold?

Also, the coversation regarding myself and taxes is based on a false premise, since I said "I'll get my freind to cut it". If the transaction had occured, the transaction would have been between him and the customer, so it is his potentiallly taxable income, not mine. I'd just act as quality control!


From corkcnc's post I have assumed rightly or wrongly that he is a legitimate company
[...]
If Jon had just posted that he could do the job for £35 and left it at that then maybe I would not have posted.
I am not having a go at Jon just wanted to point out sometimes its best just to think before you post.

I don't make posts without thinking about the situation. I concede I could have been more tactful by providing the following reference and avoiding the smieley. According to this post (http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/new-member-introductions/6608-hi-there.html#post49806), the user in question appears to be a 'man in a shed' business who charges (quote) 'pretty good man in a shed prices for stuff.' In my opinion this statement doesn't match the price quoted, so I took the opportunity to highlight a general point - namely what sort of price people should expect from an RFQ if it's not fulfilled by a business.

For a conventional company, then to be fair £25/h seems below average for CNC machining, especially compared to what was quoted in the last thread I was involved in where this was discussed. As a 'man in a shed' I would not be comfortable charging that much.

blackburn mark
31-01-2014, 12:38 PM
man in a shed

I've heard this "man in a shed" stuff once or twice and it is tempting to buy into the idea that a "man in a shed" is somehow less worthy.... but now I think about it, it seems like a large bag of horse piss.

The larger workshop owners frustration of the "man in a shed" is understandable but the customer is only ever arsed about time, price and quality and a man in a shed will invariably be capable of kicking the arse out the workshop owners bids on small batches.

The derogatory "man in a shed" image is, it seems, a bit of a phantom used buy those with the motive to piss and moan at our hero, the "man in a shed" driving prices down.... sour grapes :)

Maybe the workshop owner should tell the man in a shed that he is worth the same money as everybody else and drive the prices back up again so we can all live happily ever after :)

Fivetide
31-01-2014, 01:10 PM
Ah “Man in a Shed syndrome” , I like it  Personally I wish to remain always a man in a shed, but I am aiming at a niece market where a workshop cannot “do” what I want to do. And therefore I charge accordingly. However an example of “Man in a Van “ would have been my Dad, who took his redundancy money and bought a Transit van and sold nappies to Nursery’s out of the backdoor. Same product the big boys were selling only he had no marketing, office storage or personal overheads. That said 10 years later he was the biggest private medical supplies business on the Fylde coast. Going from a transit full of nappies a week to 4 Artics full of Baby to Man size incontinence pants.,per week. Man in a shed is the start for some and the end for others.
Now my Dad is a Justice of the Peace an ex Major .. shop steward and Labour councillor , he ran his company by the book for 10 years but was investigated by the Inland revenue for 2 of those years. Why you may ask? Mainly because my Dad believe that sharing the good fortune created by hard work was more valuable than giving it to lazy arsed shareholders. So the wages where well above average and the company gave very generous bonuses. The turnover of staff was 0% throughout the life of the company and he retired with a good pension and some sizable assets. The Inland revenue couldn’t understand why he was paying so little profit tax on such a large turnover. They were basing the idea on the standard greedy owner who exploits his workers. Anyway I thought I would share .. its probs off topic but in my mind its knowledge worth sharing.

blackburn mark
31-01-2014, 01:35 PM
Mainly because my Dad believe that sharing the good fortune created by hard work was more valuable than giving it to lazy arsed shareholders.

Nothing is quite as gorgeous as a man big enough to stick to "solidarity" in the minefield of success :)
Maybe I have gone blind in my old age but I cant seem to see any of that in the leadership today.... somehow it seems the scum has managed to rise to the top.

corkcnc
31-01-2014, 10:54 PM
Hi all,
I avoided posting in case it was seen by anyone as sour grapes. However I'm quite happy to share a couple of lines on my situation.
As I said in my intro some months back, I do my best to charge man in a shed prices. On this side of the pond we don't have anything like a hobby allowance, income is income and woe betide the person who tries to avoid their tax liabilities. Irish revenue keep us all in line by applying penalties and interest on unpaid taxes that will in almost all cases I've seen, exceed the initial moneys.
So for someone like me, for everything I earn after expenses, I hand over 41% of that to big brother as the day job knocks me into the higher band. As Andy mentioned I live in a society and a man must pay his dues. So break down my £25 and you are looking at £15 left before I've provided everything from power,tools,coolant, right down to the sacrificial base plate. So while I'm not a business man I still have to abide by the rules.
As Jon said, he is not breaking any laws if he is under his tax threshold (if he was doing the job himself) and in Ireland I could operate cheaper if I was either out of work, a student or retired till I reach the threshold for marginal tax. So for me it's not sour grapes, it's a free market and I compete in this same market. If someone can do it cheaper, fine, best of luck to them.
I think it has been a very worthwhile discussion, the problem with internet discussions is that a lot can be inferred that is not meant and Jon's "shocked" smiley face, as he said himself was a bit out of place.
I'm learning loads from this forum specifically the old posts on automation and I like to do interesting jobs for people if I have the time so I reply to the rfqs and if I get outbid then that's life. I wouldn't lower my prices any lower for two reasons, firstly because life is short and I love spending time with my kids and it's not worth it if the extra few quid doesn't improve our lot. It pays for the small things, like new tools or swimming classes, not Ferraris I'm afraid. Secondly we do a highly skilled job, not everyone can do it. The complex stuff can take a bit of time. I could be in bed reading my book and suddenly find that I've zoned out from the page and I'm working out where to put the cutter compensation in a deep pocket.
Anyway enough from me. Poor Doddy only wanted a plate made and it morphed beyond recognition.
Noel.

EddyCurrent
31-01-2014, 11:07 PM
Anyway enough from me. Poor Doddy only wanted a plate made and it morphed beyond recognition.

Amen to that

blackburn mark
31-01-2014, 11:44 PM
[QUOTE= morphed beyond recognition.[/QUOTE]
I guess we can get a bit carried away but it all part of the fun.
I'm with you when it comes to sticking to your guns on price, life is kind of short :)
Jonathan is young and has time to burn :)

EddyCurrent
31-01-2014, 11:55 PM
blackburn mark,

This time I like your crack, life is too short and in time Jonathan will be coming from another angle so lets all kick back and chill out.

Lee Roberts
01-02-2014, 12:31 AM
Hi guys,

Iíve been holding off with my reply but I think now is a good time.

Iím pleased the thread has now ďlevelled outĒ, amongst what has been said Iíve been able to take some good feedback from the discussion, I think Iíve identified some small changes I can make to the RFQ sub forum that should help address some of the specifics/concerns mentioned.

Thank you everyone for your contributions, overall this half of the discussion has impacted positively to the evolution of the forum.

Iíve split the thread for now; will write some code and fast track those changes shortly.

:thumsup:

.Me

JAZZCNC
01-02-2014, 01:36 AM
What I find the most saddening is that all, Alex and my self where trying to point out was becareful because you are subject to tax laws. Which to me was good helpful advise but for our trouble we get shit like this thrown at us.
Fact your under the threshold makes no differance if you get reported and haven't declared your earnings they can still prosecute you if they feel the need.

In my day job business's which is nothing to do with CNC I pay insurance just incase the Tax man ever investigates me.? Why because the expense of an investigation can easily run into £1000's of pounds and take years to resolve.!! . . . . Trust me on this because I've been on the receiving end of being raped by the Tax man and when they feel you've been less than truthful they turn you inside out go back to before time began and treat you like your Ronnie Biggs whether you are or not.!!

So crack on "Men in shed's" but keep some lube handy because If HMRC comes knocking he'll bend you over dry with very little warning.!!

Lee Roberts
01-02-2014, 02:45 AM
Here we go myi lov'ers (said in a south country accent):


<vb:if condition="$show['member'] AND $GLOBALS[forumid] == '194' AND $post[postcount] == '1'">
<li class="postbit postbitim">
<div class="postbody">
<div class="postrow">
<h2 class="posttitle">Forum Notice:</h2>
<div class="content">Discussions in this sub-forum are disabled; please respond to this request by contacting the author privately.</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
</vb:if>

Still needs some cosmetic adjustments but i'll do those on the dev server as part of the major update/redesign.

.Me

alex wight
01-02-2014, 11:19 AM
Having sat back and read some of the comments on here, its apparent that if you offer good advice to help others, it gets interperated in a totally different way, to suit the individual. The bottom line is, if you want to make a few pounds, do it, but don't tell an open forum that you are. This however is against the law, as if you are accepting monies in return for jobs/favours, this is classed as "doing business". If you wish to do business under the radar, again, don't do it on an open forum. As said before, i registered my small business with Mr Taxman, to keep me right, and to keep within the law. So should some spiteful jealous bag stabbing lowlife decides they want to tell Mr Taxman that i,m earning money through sales of my crafts. Mr Taxman can reply "crawl back under the stone that you came from and get a life, as this guy is a law abiding citizen. Myself and Dean, genuinely gave out sound advise, so that it would help members understand what goes on out there, but in was twisted in a way that made it look as tho WE were jealous or had an agenda. I can safely say that that was not and never was the intention from my part, and knowing Dean, nor his. We are all on this site to gain valuable information to help us have a better hobby/life, and share good and bad experiences. So the bottom line is, be careful what you say on an open forum.

Kind regards
alex

ps
one example of how an open forum can get you in trouble. I,m a member of a racing pigeon site, a fancier told the world that he had just killed a bird of prey. RSPB silently monitor the site pretending to be a fancier. Next step was an arrest, a court appearance and a heavy fine.

JAZZCNC
01-02-2014, 11:47 AM
ps
one example of how an open forum can get you in trouble. I,m a member of a racing pigeon site, a fancier told the world that he had just killed a bird of prey. RSPB silently monitor the site pretending to be a fancier. Next step was an arrest, a court appearance and a heavy fine.

Good example and I'll give one that's very related to this site.!!. . . . I knew someone who was posting that they where using Copied CAM software to the point they helped (and probably gave) others by telling them how to install it etc. This was picked up on by the Software company and legal action taken.!!

Again I'm not getting on any Moral Soap box regards the use of dodgy software, most including me have used some at some point but just think before posting esp if your going to try to belittle some one at same time.

blackburn mark
01-02-2014, 12:05 PM
In that case Jazz, I'm not sure why you are frustrated?
My objections are contingent upon there being some malice and in light of your words being of no such thing, they are not levelled at you and I will take responsibility for jumping the gun... however, I will to some extent continue to offer some opposition to your putting the fear of god into any souls that wish to use this site to "dip there wick" into the world of manufacturing.

I am not offering legal advice and I am not advising people to "avoid" or ignore the conundrum twixt "dipping their wick" and taking the piss.
It is a subjective shout on the side of the hobby manufacturer to draw a line between hobby and money making tax liable business.

We ALL already know that the law is a blunt tool in that for all intent and purpose it would hold that your granny is liable if she decides to sell that jumper she knitted for you on ebay....
Somewhere between knitted jumper and IPhone manufacturer there is a line and common sense "should" have folks have at least a rudimentary idea where that line is.
Personally (OPINION) I would draw the line at skimming money from the hobby/business to spend on items that are unrelated to the building or running of that business excluding any grotesque asset building/collecting.

I DO NOT advise anybody to do as I say or do... I am only offering my thoughts on the issue of the hysteresis loop between grannies knitted jumper and the Iphone manufacturer.... how many knitted jumpers can granny sell before she is taking the piss?
There is an answer but unfortunately, it is a subjective one.

JAZZCNC
01-02-2014, 12:39 PM
Mark I completely 100% agree there's nothing wrong with it in my eyes either.! . . .BUT and the whole point in MY original post, forget all the stuff after, was to becareful what you post publicly. Which in this case was Esp true because the little arrogant shit was putting down a bloke who just gave what was asked for a "Quote" in the full knowledge he could safely do so without fear of the Taxman. Jon then gave out Specific Figures of what He " illegaly in Tax mans world" charges which is in my eyes dumber than dumb considering you have just tried to belittle a hard working bloke who could possibly be very pissed off .!!

My frustration came from the narrow mindedness of my post being twisted into something it wasn't, which seems to be happening a lot lately from the ones who clearly don't like me, which is fair enough as it's just par the course with forums.! . . . But I won't stand by and say nothing esp when I've only tried to pass on sound advise for someones own good.! . . . . . But on reflection and following his comments aimed to me I hope some Bastard does report him has he needs that arrogant chip knocking off his shoulders, thou rest assured it won't be me.!

blackburn mark
01-02-2014, 02:01 PM
I am happy to agree that Jonathan was insensitive with his bid.
I am also happy to stand next to Corkcnc on his bid... I wouldn't put bids in on this site in a "business" capacity because there are to many people "dipping their wick" or jobs are done to some extent on good will and that cannot be competed with.... that's a good thing!


My frustration came from the narrow mindedness of my post being twisted into something it wasn't, which seems to be happening a lot lately from the ones who clearly don't like me
How many time do we need to go through this Jazz?
Do you want me to draw you a picture or should I use shorter words?
Maybe a bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates to prove that any objections that I made where intended to counter any malice and as you have stated again and again, there was no malice in your words to Jonathan and as I have stated, I did not have you in mind when I originally objected so you where NOT being attacked.

If you expect me to take your word that there was no malice, it would be wise for you too extend me the courtesy of of taking "me" at my word or you undermine any attempts on my part to reconcile the misadventure and you undermine the value of your own word with your assumptions that "everyone" is full of shit.
I gave you a pass on much of the preceding venom and ad hominem, allowing for your short fuse for which I hold no grudge... is there any point in my stating that I do not dislike you Jazz... or will you persist in assuming that "everyone" is full of shit?

m_c
01-02-2014, 02:46 PM
HM Revenue & Customs:Selling items online, through classified advertisements - Examples (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/guidance/selling/examples.htm) is worth a quick read.
Things aren't always black and white in the tax field, however if you're making any kind of intentional commercial income, it should be declared.
.
The pirated software thing is always a taboo area. However it is rumoured that a certain large CAD package got it's position by releasing cracks themself, and I've never heard of them prosecuting an individual for using them. It's quite ingenious when you think about. Get joe public using your very expensive software, who then go to their employers saying what a fantastic bit of software it is, who then spend lots of money on it. Mean while, all your competition who are doing everything they can to protect thier software and are relying on legacy sales/hard sell with limited hands on experience, are losing market share.
Off course they've never publically admitted doing it, but when the cracks have came from the same source for a considerable number of years, it does make you wonder.

george uk
01-02-2014, 05:48 PM
The pirated software thing is always a taboo area. However it is rumoured that a certain large CAD package got it's position by releasing cracks themself,

Or the security built in was pap, beyond pap, and all products from that co, used a similar version, so when the algorithm got cracked, slight adjustments allowed you to crack all there products.

Although, Sky, virgin and the old ITV pay tv, had an all out war a few years back, sky cracked itvs codes and released them online, ( it sunk them, ) so the old employees released cracks for virgin and sky ( both same-ish ). So everyone had free modems and tv for years.

Mach, on the other hand, is different, its the Chinees sending out cracked software, Machs a cheep bit pf software and is not be worth the time to crack individually. the hacked versions look like they have some strange added code.

Lesson to be learnt, your opening yourself up to a lot worse trouble than being done for unlicensed software by installing cracked software. I know this from experience trying to track down a bug in mach a few years ago, and finding out the CHI had added code on top of the crack.

on the main topic, and had been through a full force tax audit a few years ago ( turn up at house and business, ceased books and pc's ). i found them to be very reasonable, as long as your not taking the mikle.

JAZZCNC
01-02-2014, 06:10 PM
How many time do we need to go through this Jazz?

Mark I was just answering your question below.?

In that case Jazz, I'm not sure why you are frustrated?

I did/do take you at your word and I don't think you or anyone is "Full of shit" not even Jonathan.
Like I say it saddens me that people passing on sensible sound advice should be challenged.! . . End of the Day we are all adults and it's just that "Advice" so people are free to take it or leave it.!!

Oh and it puts a smile on my slap head face that you "Do not dislike" me because if you hadn't made that clear I couldn't possibly have gone on living. .:hysterical:

johnsattuk
01-02-2014, 06:22 PM
on the main topic, and had been through a full force tax audit a few years ago ( turn up at house and business, ceased books and pc's ). i found them to be very reasonable, as long as your not taking the mikle.

Many years ago they turned up at my friends house and made his life hell for 12 months, to the point that he had a nervous breakdown, and nearly lost his job. They had decided that he was living in an area that was not commensurate with his income.

JAZZCNC
01-02-2014, 06:37 PM
Many years ago they turned up at my friends house and made his life hell for 12 months, to the point that he had a nervous breakdown, and nearly lost his job. They had decided that he was living in an area that was not commensurate with his income.

Yep another Classic Gotcha they watch and look for is exotic Foreign Holidays has it's easy tracked.!. . . . How many "Men in sheds" say I only do it for "Holiday Money" .? . . . . If they are suspicious are have been tipped off they don't just Knock on the door, they sit and watch just like a clever guard dog then they lock there teeth into you.!!

george uk
01-02-2014, 07:20 PM
They had decided that he was living in an area that was not commensurate with his income.

very similar, i purchased my house at 40k when it valued up at 110k ( 2002 ), off my family as a present. one year on, First day they arrived with warrent, they listed every expensive item in my property, asked me were and when it was purchased, and checked it there and then. I was a property manager and they had mixed up my personal and business accounts, with a client account that had 250k pa going through it, All sorted out eventually.

I had made some slight filing errors, but i was honest with the tax man, from the start ( admited something inconsequential ). He told me how the fines systems works. If you dont withold anything at the first or subsequent meetings, and provide your full books/reciepts. you will generaly only be fined the same amount as any missing tax. ( as long as its a mistake and you have not tried to deceive them to badley ). Still it was 4 months of hell.

george uk
01-02-2014, 08:41 PM
i will add this because someone mentioned software on here and perhaps its not worth a topic on its own but is something that all cnc machinists should bare in mind in relation to there controllers and software. This is relevant to anyone using a controller card thats assessable to the network, or anyone using windows on any part of there network.

The Americans and Israelis and us ( uk ), wrote a totlay different type of virus call stuxnet to attack Iran's infrastructure, specifically to attack semen's controllers,motor drivers,VFD and operating systems, through holes in usb/bios/Os backdoors ( holes that the americans forced the co,s to include ). When Iran found it ( many trashed centrifuges later ), they published the code. and i dont think nobody considered the consequences. The way it was coded to move around undetected, and locate targets, and implement itself was new, and still is reasonably untraceable. The first few modules in teh code can be adjusted to vary the attack parameters, the modules that attack the VDF timers arent specific to semens, they mess with teh way the chip calculates/times,

OK< YOU SAY, WHATS THAT GOT TO DO WITH CNCing

Because as soon as them craft hackers got hold of it they realised they could use the code to load onto any usb or cd or disk, to find and attack many different types of micro-controllers. A real lot of stuff coming out the east and ru has this coding hidden on it someware, if the cd spins or usb powers the drive, it will infect it without trace. The real problem is it has the capability to infect the routers underground ( infrastructure ), and these arent easy to replace. IE, if it infects ANY machine connected to the same infrastructure point as you ( usualy a few hundered connections ), it will infect all of them. and its only detectable when it activates.

OK, whats relationship with CNCing

Because my friend has seen many many different variations on this used to attack American and Chinese products, ( seems like there is some sort of cyber spat on between them ). a lot of the codes seems to be directed towards overheating the chips.

The point being , be very wary about exposing you cnc computer to the net, any hacked software, and eastern disk. And if it is exposed to the net, dont let your microcontrollers identify themselves ( especially LAN connections ).

blackburn mark
01-02-2014, 09:08 PM
Mark I was just answering your question

Ah... so you are happy to concede that the assertion that "YOUR" post was being twisted into something it wasn't was in error?
Why didn't you just say that?.... would have saved a lot of messing around.


I couldn't possibly have gone on living.
?... bit strange... did you smoke something?

JAZZCNC
01-02-2014, 09:30 PM
Ah... so you are happy to concede that the assertion that "YOUR" post was being twisted into something it wasn't was in error?
Why didn't you just say that?.... would have saved a lot of messing around.

No Not at all but I'm not getting into it anymore so just Fuckoff.!

blackburn mark
01-02-2014, 10:12 PM
No Not at all
That falsifies your claim that you took me at my word... you cant have both pieces of cake Jazz.


I'm not getting into it anymore
That's probably for the best.

I wouldn't have pressed the issue had you not insisted that I swallow "your" pride.


so just Fuckoff.!
OK