CNC machine "Spanish" model . Advice and opinions needed!

[shapebusters]

Hello everyone, and thank you for your time. I need your opinion on a Spanish CnC Machine, for a possible buy, similar to this one:

11521

At the moment i am building a Cowork space with a FabLab and Hackerspace, here in Lisbon, Portugal, and amongst other machines i want to have a Cnc Router, for working with plastics and wood, etc.

I would like to have a machine big enough to make digital fabrication possible.
Now i want something bigger, to do works were digital fabrication and machining plays a role on the projects.
Therefore i was searching for a machine with something around this size: 2.5m x 1.2m x 0.2m (98inches x 47inches x 7 inches), but i dont no a great thing about the machine itself, i just now how to work with them!
I though about getting one from China http://www.cnczone.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif (mainly because of the prices) but i heard about a Spanish manufacturer of cnc's, and I need to know your opinion regarding the construction and the potential of the machine.
This machine its being sold used for 6000€ (8000USD), but i expect to negotiate it around 5000€.

11522 11523
11524 11525
11526
It was built and sold in June 2011, it as the following features:
. Work Area of 2.1mx1.3mx0.1m
. Travel speed 15meters x min
. In aluminum and steel.
. Slotted aluminum table
. 300N engine torque NEMA23
. Axes X, Y Offset toothed belt. Spindle axis Z anti-backlash.
. Computer included with the Software milling VCarve Pro and Aspire programs.
. Control system using DSP (digital signal processor)
. Suction chip.
. Industrial hoover system.
. Many tools

With this information and images, what can you say about the machine?
What should be done to improve it?

All your help and opinions are appreciated!

Thanks!

[GEOFFREY]

Hi Wellcome. Those pictures seem to be of two different machines. It sounds like the spindle axis is probably trapezoidal rather than
ballscrew. The table and gantry do not look to be very strong or well braced, but it does seem to use profiled rails. I suspect it will be fine for lighter/softer materials if that is what you intend to use it for, but wonder how it well it will cope with with multi-users. these comments are just my own thoughts, and I am sure that some more experienced members will soon comment. Good luck with whatever you decide. G.

[shapebusters]

Hi Wellcome. Those pictures seem to be of two different machines. It sounds like the spindle axis is probably trapezoidal rather than
ballscrew. The table and gantry do not look to be very strong or well braced, but it does seem to use profiled rails. I suspect it will be fine for lighter/softer materials if that is what you intend to use it for, but wonder how it well it will cope with with multi-users. these comments are just my own thoughts, and I am sure that some more experienced members will soon comment. Good luck with whatever you decide. G.

Thank you for your help. The machine will be used by one worker or two only, and will be used mainly on wood, acrilic and plastics.
I really need to be able to evaluate the quality of the machine...
Regards form Portugal!

[gavztheouch]

Like Geoffrey says the construction is a little light weight. It reminds me of a sign writing machine rather than a machine capable of cutting plywood or mdf at any speed at all.

Positives are it appears to have everything you need to get started, tools, vcarve and extraction. Just missing a vacuum bed.

[shapebusters]

Like Geoffrey says the construction is a little light weight. It reminds me of a sign writing machine rather than a machine capable of cutting plywood or mdf at any speed at all.

Positives are it appears to have everything you need to get started, tools, vcarve and extraction. Just missing a vacuum bed.

Thank you!
I know that the "bed" structure, is made of Steel, and it was used for cutting mdf in a woodcenter.
Do you believe it could be improved with time? How? Better Spindle? Do you think its only a Chinese model sold by Spain?

Regards and thanks again!

[GEOFFREY]

My concern about the table is that it appears to have no diagonal bracing, and the gantry appears to be a fairly light guage steel pressing. My comment about multi-user was because I thought the "coworker- hackspace" usage would imply several users. The reason that I said more than one machine shown was a) different colour spindles and b) different legs. I think most of the chinese machines use chinese spindles(it could of course been imported into Spain without a spindle) and that does not look like a typical chinese spindle to me. (Kress?). G.

[gavztheouch]

It does not look Chinese to me but I can't be sure. I would be worried about the strength of the bent sheet metal side supports for the gantry and the z axis looks like it will be flimsy at full extension.

[JAZZCNC]

This machine is very flimsy in some important areas.!
Basicly it looks like a Aluminium profile frame work with Slotted profile for the bed sat on pressed steel tressels. The gantry sides are very flimsy pressed steel and don't look very well braced or supported where they meet the linear bearings.
It also use's rack & pinion for the long axis which isn't unusual for this size machine but it doesn't look to have much gear reduction so could be low resolution.? Also the torque could be low with those smaller Nema 23 motors with no or low reduction.

The Z axis is very poor design and use's unsupported round rail with only 2 bearings and a flimsy front plate which spindle attaches to. The spindle is actually an Ok spindle which is similair to the Kress but better with more power. German made I think.?

Being honest you are paying mostly for the T-slot the bed which at this size machine is very expensive but it's failing in some very important places like Z axis and Gantry strength. In practice for mostly wood based machine then T-slot isn't worth the expense IMO and just a simple stable material for the bed with a MDF spoil board is much better and far cheaper.

Not sure you could buy a cheaper or better machine from any other Company at this size but you certainly could build one far far better for less than 5K.

IMO it would be a bad move to buy this machine has it will yield only average results and lower quality finish.

[shapebusters]

This machine is very flimsy in some important areas.!
Basicly it looks like a Aluminium profile frame work with Slotted profile for the bed sat on pressed steel tressels. The gantry sides are very flimsy pressed steel and don't look very well braced or supported where they meet the linear bearings.
It also use's rack & pinion for the long axis which isn't unusual for this size machine but it doesn't look to have much gear reduction so could be low resolution.? Also the torque could be low with those smaller Nema 23 motors with no or low reduction.

The Z axis is very poor design and use's unsupported round rail with only 2 bearings and a flimsy front plate which spindle attaches to. The spindle is actually an Ok spindle which is similair to the Kress but better with more power. German made I think.?

Being honest you are paying mostly for the T-slot the bed which at this size machine is very expensive but it's failing in some very important places like Z axis and Gantry strength. In practice for mostly wood based machine then T-slot isn't worth the expense IMO and just a simple stable material for the bed with a MDF spoil board is much better and far cheaper.

Not sure you could buy a cheaper or better machine from any other Company at this size but you certainly could build one far far better for less than 5K.

IMO it would be a bad move to buy this machine has it will yield only average results and lower quality finish.

Thank you very much for all the info.

You said something that got in my mind... that making one myself i would be better served.
Do you think this is an easy job? As you can see by my presentation:http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/new-member-introductions/7132-ol%E1-portugal.html#post54728
Im not afraid of the construction itself. In fact i can make any thing in metal/steel from a 3d Model, almost without paying for it. What worries me is the servos and the mechanic of the thing. I have assembled a Ultimaker, and done a electric bycicle: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nHHvQXpZ9Do/Uo5cXaB7beI/AAAAAAAACxE/2RhAgYo_tlc/w640-h480-no/IMG_20131121_160707.jpg

But all this was done by following simple instructions and searching the web.

BUT I LOVE THE IDEA OF BUILDING IT! HAHAHAHA

Do you recomend any "Bible" for the job?

Thanks again

[Clive S]

Do you recomend any "Bible" for the job? You're reading it.:beer: ..Clive

[shapebusters]

You're reading it.:beer: ..Clive

:thumsup::thumsup:

"Here i go!"

[EddyCurrent]

American but some useful information to get you going, though they can have different build styles to UK
CNC Machinist Cookbook: Software and Information (http://www.cnccookbook.com/)

[shapebusters]

American but some useful information to get you going, though they can have different build styles to UK
CNC Machinist Cookbook: Software and Information (http://www.cnccookbook.com/)

Thank you very much!

[JAZZCNC]

Forget the books all you need is here on the forum.

If you can use CAD and have access to welder, drill press and few basic power tools grinder etc and can weld to a basic level then you'll easily build a CNC machine which if done correctly will more than match anything you'll buy costing double or triple what you'll invest building your own.

Best advise is do the research and read the forum untill your confident you know enough to start building. Then come up with a design that will suit you, don't be afraid to copy someone else's design either as there's only so many ways to build these things.!!
Then draw the basic design up in Cad to check component fits etc but don't get too carried away with full blown fancy Cad models has the build always changes from the Cad model in some way or another. So just basic CAD and then get on with building machine.

BUT before building phase Start a build thread and run it by us for checking.

DONT buy anything until your absolutley sure it's correct for your needs and again run it by forum to verify your correct. Don't be afraid of the electronics, Motors, drives etc they are very simple things to get working but whats Very important is they are sized correctly and why your best running all the components your intending to use by us first so we can check they are balanced correctly and suitable for your needs.
If your unsure then just ask and no question is a dumb question so don't be afraid to ask anything your unsure about.

Happy building.!

[shapebusters]

Forget the books all you need is here on the forum.

If you can use CAD and have access to welder, drill press and few basic power tools grinder etc and can weld to a basic level then you'll easily build a CNC machine which if done correctly will more than match anything you'll buy costing double or triple what you'll invest building your own.

Best advise is do the research and read the forum untill your confident you know enough to start building. Then come up with a design that will suit you, don't be afraid to copy someone else's design either as there's only so many ways to build these things.!!
Then draw the basic design up in Cad to check component fits etc but don't get too carried away with full blown fancy Cad models has the build always changes from the Cad model in some way or another. So just basic CAD and then get on with building machine.

BUT before building phase Start a build thread and run it by us for checking.

DONT buy anything until your absolutley sure it's correct for your needs and again run it by forum to verify your correct. Don't be afraid of the electronics, Motors, drives etc they are very simple things to get working but whats Very important is they are sized correctly and why your best running all the components your intending to use by us first so we can check they are balanced correctly and suitable for your needs.

Happy building.!

Thank you very much for all the help.

What do you think about something like this: Brian Oltrogge | Gr (http://www.grunblau.com/PlatformCNC.htm)

2D/3D Surfacing on my DIY Platform CNC - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3iWqHYoskI)

[JAZZCNC]

Thank you very much for all the help.

What do you think about something like this: Brian Oltrogge | Gr (http://www.grunblau.com/PlatformCNC.htm)

2D/3D Surfacing on my DIY Platform CNC - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3iWqHYoskI)

Again the Ganrty looks quite weak but more than that it use's V bearings, which are basicly just fancy skate board bearings, and pressed steel for Linear motion which isn't very good in my experience.
Problem comes from fine dust building up on the rails and collecting on the bearings which can lead to stalling motors etc if not kept clean. Even with good dust extraction I wouldn't use them has there will be wear issues with the thin Steel sheet which will mean regular adjustment.

When cutting wood, MDf etc dust it will be bad enough but with plastics it will be even worse has the static makes it stick to everything. If you look at the video you can see it starting to build up at the sides and you'll see they have built make shift barriers to contain the dust.

The linear motion is such an important area of a machine that cost cutting in this area always leads to regret in my experience. Company's do it to maximise Profit. DIY builders do it to keep costs down but it makes for a much poorer machine which ever reason.!!

[shapebusters]

Again the Ganrty looks quite weak but more than that it use's V bearings, which are basicly just fancy skate board bearings, and pressed steel for Linear motion which isn't very good in my experience.
Problem comes from fine dust building up on the rails and collecting on the bearings which can lead to stalling motors etc if not kept clean. Even with good dust extraction I wouldn't use them has there will be wear issues with the thin Steel sheet which will mean regular adjustment.

When cutting wood, MDf etc dust it will be bad enough but with plastics it will be even worse has the static makes it stick to everything. If you look at the video you can see it starting to build up at the sides and you'll see they have built make shift barriers to contain the dust.

The linear motion is such an important area of a machine that cost cutting in this area always leads to regret in my experience. Company's do it to maximise Profit. DIY builders do it to keep costs down but it makes for a much poorer machine which ever reason.!!

There are no arguments against facts!

Thank you!

[navins]

Yes, dude.
It is looking awesome.