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chris
17-02-2014, 11:00 AM
I am trying to run large 3d relief cutting files on my dsp pendant controller and running up against internal memory issues. This the controller;

http://www.shtmakine.com/FileUpload/bs62910/File/sht_mo-con501_full.pdf

I am running my files from the external usb stick. When I press run, the files load onto the internal memory of the pendant controller, counting up to 100% before running. My smaller files run fine. I am now trying to run a 123mb file. It starts loading fine but when to gets to around 85% it stops and I get a message on the pendant screen saying something like ' insufficient internal memory, please delete some files'.

When I navigate to the internal files list on the pendant, it is empty, so I can't delete anything.

The blurb for the controller says it is possible to run larger files (bigger than 128mb) straight from the memory stick. I can't find an option to do this other than what I'm already doing.

Anyone else encountered this issue and found a work around?

Thanks in advance. Chris

Dragonfly
17-02-2014, 07:41 PM
According to the document from the link you have 2 options to chose where to run the file from - internal or external (USB stick).
If you have selected the correct source then it might be a file error on the stick. Sometimes error messages on microcontroller based devices might be misleading as they hardly cover every particular error case.
Have you tried reading back the file to the PC?
Or use a different USB stick for a test?
If nothing else helps maybe you can split the job into smaller parts.

chris
17-02-2014, 08:22 PM
Thanks for the reply.
Yes I am running it from the stick, and have tried different sticks, but always with the same result that any file over 100mb gets near completion of loading then reports insufficient memory. I am confused as the manual says you can run direct from the stick with larger files, but when you choose this option, it still appears to need to load on to the pendant's internal memory before running. I need to find the instruction to bypass this step, or as you point out, learn how to make it as more than one part. I am reluctant to go down that route until I have ascertained beyond doubt that it is not possible run files larger than 100mb using the pendant.

Dragonfly
17-02-2014, 09:00 PM
The best approach is, of course, to ask the manufacturer. If they are cooperative. The manual is written in somewhat telegraphic style I'd say and maybe some vital step in defining an external only source is omitted.
Or there simply may be a bug in the firmware if they use the internal memory as a temporary storage in that case.

EddyCurrent
17-02-2014, 09:19 PM
Maybe it's because the 128MB is it's size before the file system and formatting is taken into account ? same as a hard disc does not give you the full capacity of it's quoted size.

chris
17-02-2014, 09:39 PM
Yes, I am waiting for manufacturers to get back to me but thought I'd try you guys as I've always found solutions quickly presented here. I'm sure, like most things, it's quite simple if you know how. If the manufacturer can provide a solution I will post it here.

chris
18-02-2014, 11:47 AM
I spoke to the manufacturer (uk importer?) this morning. Apparently the pendant buffers the file from usb stick to internal memory so there is no easy solution. I am wondering if some electronics expert could increase the internal memory for me? Other than that I am looking at cutting the file in parts, converting the machine to Mach 3 or buying a pendant with a larger memory. Suggestions welcome.

EddyCurrent
18-02-2014, 12:04 PM
I spoke to the manufacturer (uk importer?) this morning. Apparently the pendant buffers the file from usb stick to internal memory so there is no easy solution.

So how does that affect it ? I thought you had 128MB internal and the files was 123MB ? are you saying the memory in the pendant is less that that ? which if it is, sounds like they made a cock up.

Mach3 or Linux is the way to go.

stirling
18-02-2014, 01:10 PM
What EddyCurrent said but also...


I spoke to the manufacturer (uk importer?) this morning. Apparently the pendant buffers the file from usb stick to internal memory

But that's not the answer to your question - he may *say* it BUFFERS but that's exactly what it isn't doing. Buffering means that rather than loading ALL the data from the stick to internal memory and then running it (what they call "internal"), BUFFERING (in this context) means it should load "some amount" from the stick to internal memory and then as it works through it it loads more as needed until the job is done (what they call "external").

You're being fobbed off by someone who either doesn't know or DOES know and is not prepared to admit that it doesn't do what the manual says it should.

EddyCurrent
18-02-2014, 01:29 PM
But that's not the answer to your question - he may *say* it BUFFERS but that's exactly what it isn't doing. Buffering means that rather than loading ALL the data from the stick to internal memory and then running it (what they call "internal"), BUFFERING (in this context) means it should load "some amount" from the stick to internal memory and then as it works through it it loads more as needed until the job is done (what they call "external").

Yes, thanks stirling, that's what I should have said had I engaged my brain better, buffering is what you said and it does allow memory in the pendant to be less as it's moving the file in smaller blocks.

stirling
18-02-2014, 03:49 PM
Yes, thanks stirling, that's what I should have said had I engaged my brain better, buffering is what you said and it does allow memory in the pendant to be less as it's moving the file in smaller blocks.

Thanks EC but what you said originally about the 128 vs 123 is surely also correct. I expect the "importer" has an excuse for that too. Probably something like Ah... but USB megabytes are bigger megabytes than internal memory megabytes so that's why 123 won't fit into 128. Ah right - thanks... :witless:

chris
18-02-2014, 04:41 PM
Yes it's puzzling me. I agree Mach 3 is the way to go but the machine came with this pendant so I will try and make it work for now if I can.
The file is 123mb (an other is 105mb, neither run) and the internal memory of the pendant is 128mb so I'm not quite sure where the missing storage space has gone.

If anyone could convert my router to Mach 3 for a reasonable price I would defo be interested. Likewise if anyone could boost the memory of the pendant.

I am currently trying to circumvent the issue by dividing the cutting file into parts, to machine seperately on the same workpiece ( a pain in the arse). I have encountered another issue that's baffling me. Using the sub-segment facility in Deskproto, the finish file doesn't seem to coordinate with the roughing file. i.e the finish pass cut is cutting too shallow and then too deep. It vaguely resemble the roughing pass (I left a skin of 1mm to take off with finish pass), but is out by +- 5mm. I have double checked the origin and z level zero and it's all good. I am doing another sample as we speak to see if the same problem occurs. I am wondering if there is a bug in the sub-seg feature of Deskproto or whether I've overlooked something obvious. I'll keep you posted.

chris
18-02-2014, 05:29 PM
Oh crikey. It's all gone tits up now. I was cutting a roughing file on a 3d relief. It has 40mm depth which the router was due to cut in 2 x 20mm passes. When it got to the end of the first pass, instead of moving back 500mm to the origin to begin the second pass, it only moved back around 30mm and started the second pass in totally the wrong place. When I stopped the program and returned to origin, it had set itself a new origin where the second pass started. Rats!

So, something is amiss. It could be one of several things;
1)in trying to find how to run large files on the pendant I inadvertently pressed 'format' which deletes all the settings on the pendant memory. I reset them but may have missed something.

2) deskproto CAM has a bug in the sub-seg feature perhaps.

3) My new laptop which is running the CAM is messing it up. It is being replaced under warranty tomorrow as it's playing up.

I am going to try cutting a last known good file which should help identify whether it's the pendant or the file. Any advice much appreciated.

stirling
18-02-2014, 05:45 PM
Your controller appears to be from Motion Control Products who are in my opinion a good company to deal with. Was it them you talked to? If not I'd suggest you have a chat with them.

chris
18-02-2014, 06:20 PM
Yep. Spoke to them this morning. They said the pendant 'reads' the files using internal memory. They couldn't offer a solution unfortunately. I expect it is very rare that anyone using these pendants wants to run a file this large. They are probably used mostly for 2d work I expect.

JAZZCNC
19-02-2014, 01:44 AM
Yep. Spoke to them this morning. They said the pendant 'reads' the files using internal memory. They couldn't offer a solution unfortunately. I expect it is very rare that anyone using these pendants wants to run a file this large. They are probably used mostly for 2d work I expect.

Sorry but that would be unacceptable to me. 128Mb is not a large file and the documentation says it reads directly from USB for large files and it clearly doesn't.! . . OR. . .You have it set wrong and it's not doing this.?

That said personaly I would convert to Mach3 and use External Ethernet motion control card if you want to use a Laptop. You'll have a lot more options and plenty of backup for the Tit's up moments.!

chris
19-02-2014, 08:51 AM
Yes I would be happy to convert to Mach 3. It's a question of either learning how to do it myself and the time that requires or, finding someone who would be willing to do it for me (hint, hint). I'm happy to pay, obviously.

My last known good file ran fine. This is a smaller file that hadn't been through the deskproto sub-segment process. So, it's either the pendant messing up larger files or the sub segment feature of deskproto messing things up. I guess if I run a larger file that hasn't been through deskproto sub-seg then that should give me a clue.

stirling
19-02-2014, 10:09 AM
Sorry but that would be unacceptable to me. 128Mb is not a large file and the documentation says it reads directly from USB for large files and it clearly doesn't.! . . OR. . .You have it set wrong and it's not doing this.?

That said personaly I would convert to Mach3 and use External Ethernet motion control card if you want to use a Laptop. You'll have a lot more options and plenty of backup for the Tit's up moments.!


Agree 100% with Jazz. I'm surprised to be honest at MCP. This is a link (http://motioncontrolproducts.co.uk/motionnews/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/mo-con501_cnc_pendant_controller.pdf) to their .pdf about the controller and interface card and it clearly states that it can read from USB OR internal memory. In fact if you look at the table on page 1 it states:



128Mb internal memory. It can also support files of a larger size as it can read direct from a USB memory stick (up to 1GB)

So it even tells you the external file size it can handle - so clearly their answer to you is just plain wrong.

chris
19-02-2014, 10:24 AM
I know. I quoted the pdf to their man (Nick), who told me about the internal memory checking, reading (call it what you like) the files from the usb prior to running the program.
It suspect it is the manual that is wrong. If anyone knows different and can tell me how to bypass internal memory, I'd love to know.
The pendant is made in China, MCP are resellers AFAIK. It sounded to me like I was the first person to ask how to run a large file direct from usb.
I am going to e-mail them to clarify, as well as contacting the Chinese manufacturer to find out more.

EddyCurrent
19-02-2014, 10:24 AM
Did you get a wiring diagram or schematic with the machine ?

chris
19-02-2014, 10:47 AM
Hi Eddy

No I didn't but it should be fairly easy to get one as Exel are based down the rd in Burnley and are pretty helpful.

EddyCurrent
19-02-2014, 12:28 PM
If you want to convert to Mach3 then ideally you need a copy of the schematic and/or wiring diagram.

stirling
19-02-2014, 12:43 PM
OK - so I've just been looking at the many and various brandings of this Chinese controller. Each and every one of the associated manuals say you can run files direct from USB. In fact in order to run from INTERNAL memory the manuals say you must first explicitly copy them to the internal flash.

So you go to the menu that displays U-Disk-File-List and Inner-File-List select the former, select the file and it then scans the file and then you get the "run" screen. If you get to a menu that has the three options View-File, Copy-File, Delete-File then you've gone wrong somewhere - unless of course you actually DO want to copy the file to internal flash.

Re: Converting to Mach3 it should be dead easy. If you look at the link I posted above it has the diagram of the interface card for the pendant. You'll see it's just a plain vanilla step/dir with I/O. If you start with Mach3 parallel port it should be as simple as getting a BOB and moving the labelled wires from the current card to the BOB.

chris
19-02-2014, 01:26 PM
Hi Stirling. I appreciate you looking into this for me. I am doing exactly as you say; select u disk, select file. Mine does it the other way round after this though. It gives you the run screen to set the speeds etc. When you ok the speeds it starts scanning the file (screen says checking file), that is when it counts up as percentage (takes ages for a 100mb file, 20minutes or so). Files above the memory threshold trigger the 'insufficient memory' display.
In order to look at the dsp program, I will need to hook it up to my pc, which will need to be running windows xp (more hassle). If nothing else works I will do this and see if there is a setting accessible from the pc to change the way it reads.
I have never found the view, copy, delete file option. It just gives me the choices you wrote above but once file is selected you get the chance to set speeds before it scans and spits the dummy out due to file size.
I can't help thinking the messed up cuts it made over the last couple of days are related to this issue. I am trying to eliminate potential sources of the problem. My last known good file (a small one) ran fine yesterday evening. So many blinkin' variables though.
Keep the advice coming. It's good to know that it should be possible.
As regards Mach 3. I will undoubtably convert it sooner or later. Sooner if I can't get this flipin' pendant working properly.

stirling
19-02-2014, 02:17 PM
It's strange you don't have the View-File, Copy-File, Delete-File menu because that implies you can't load a file off the USB to internal flash. That implies your only option is to run from USB - but then that doesn't make sense because then there should be "no" limit...

Also, I was thinking about this BUFFERING nonsense. a) 128Mb is one hell of a buffer in this context but more importantly b) You can't use FLASH memory as a buffer anyway... well - it's not impossible I suppose but it would be insane. Flash is a) slow and b) has a finite write cycle so it would be loony tunes to use it for a buffer.

Only thing left I can think of is that you might have old firmware and that it needs upgrading...

TBH I'd do the Mach thing and move on...

chris
19-02-2014, 02:32 PM
Yes I will have a look for a firmware update. Would you mind posting a link to the sources of info you found?

As regards converting to Mach 3. I'm sold on the idea if I thought I was capable of doing it myself, or could employ someone to do it for me.

I just ran a tool-less re-run of the file that messed up yesterday. It didn't mess up this time. What's that all about?

stirling
20-02-2014, 10:44 AM
Here's one that appears to have the firmware as downloads but you should check first - chat to the nice Chinese lady. i.e. it's your gig so your risk. RZNC-0501 - RZNC-0501,RICHNC,RichAuto - CNC Controller,RZNC-0501,RZNC-0504,RICHNC-Beijing RichNC Technology Co.,LTD (http://www.richnc.com/en/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=15&id=1)

Note that the MO-CON501 is just MCPs branding. Try doing a search for just 501 CNC Pendant controller and you'll come up with all sorts of other brandings. Also - there's videos of using these things all over youtube under various brandings.

Ian

chris
20-02-2014, 01:45 PM
Ok thanks for that Ian. I will check them out. I have been trawling the internet and come up with few things to try but I am pretty sold on the Mach 3 conversion now.

stirling
20-02-2014, 01:54 PM
I would agree that Mach3 is probably the best way to go. BTW - just noticed MCP want the better part of 600 for that thing - WOW!

Dragonfly
21-02-2014, 07:45 PM
From my (limited) experience Chinese routers seem to originate from one and the same design but are manufactured (even faked) at many places. A guy here bought one (2400 x 1500 mm) and I went to make the initial set up and bring it to running condition. Has a similar pendant with an USB flash drive socket. Because there was not even an user manual with it and the man had pressed on "Factory default" on the pendant I had to measure the ball screw step and the drivers' microstep settings in order to make it move again. So I had a fair look at the internals and I think a Mach3 conversion must be easy. One only needs a good parallel port controller to provide "Dir", "Step" and "Enable" signals to the stepper drivers and to accommodate the inputs - limit switches, touch probe, etc. Spindle spin up delay and speed management may be a bit more complicated but the VFD inverters usually have more than one way of remote control.