View Full Version : Let the fun begin !!! ???

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23-05-2015, 08:47 AM
Ok it occured to me last night in my sleep that noise on the 10v signal still wouldn't make the spindle Spin if the relay was working correctly.
So I still think you have some issue with the relay not being set correctly. The 0-10v signal just defines the speed reference it's the Run signal and relays that controls whether the spindle turns or not.
I think relay is not being controlled correctly and the run circuit is still closed. Mach stops sending a speed reference when M5 or spindle button is toggled off but the noise on the 0-10v line is causing the spindle to still spin because the relay circuit is still closed.

So only thing I can suggest now (other than you've not wired it correctly which I'm sure you have.!) is that the BOB is some how taking over controlling the relay duty's and because in Spindle setup you have the Relays enabled your getting conflicts.
I suggest to test this theory you put the VFD back into using the on board speed control PD002 = 0 and leave the Start/stop to set to external control. (make sure the vfd speed reference is set above zero for this test) I think you will find the spindle starts again and won't stop and you can't control it using F5 which if was correct it would.

If I'm correct then try disableing the relays in spindle setup and see what happens.?

25-05-2015, 04:38 PM
i thought i had it all sorted so i tried to calibrate spindle from '' FUNCTION CONFIG'' tab. but it now has a different issue / maybe the same one ........
so i tried as suggested ... PD001=1, PD002=0 .. Result is spindle running at top speed with no control from F5, or the '' SPINDLE SETUP '' tab in ports 'n pins.
the ''DISABLE SPINDLE RELAYS '' or the ''MOTOR CONTROL '' box cannot control it either. i can, however turn of the relays from the '' OUTPUT SIGNALS '' tab using the '' ACTIVE LOW'' or '' ENABLED'' option. so MACH3 can control the relays from here .
what has me puzzled now is that i have used the'' MDI'' tab to input M3 S2000 and the spindle runs once i hit ''enter '' on the key board or the spindle CW F5 . the VFD shows a reading of 20,904 on its window but the DRO for the spindle speed does not change. the '' RPM '' value in MACH 3 has never updated since i got the spindle running . when i turn it off and on again '' Spindle CW F5'' button or F5 from the keyboard then the led on the BOB for the PWM controlled relay 3 comes on , but doesn't burn as brightly as the start / stop relay led. the spindle will begin to run at 280 RPM (VFD readout)

if i then hit ''RESET '' on the spindle speed window the spindle turns on fully and the led for the ''PWM '' relay3 burns brightly. this really has me puzzled.
RELAY 3 is controlled by LPT pin 14 dedicated for PWM. i cannot turn this relay off from the output tab in port & pins .

25-05-2015, 05:30 PM
Ok well this confirms my suspicion that you are not correctly in control of the Relay outputs.

First of all you don't calibrate the spindle with Function Config. Set it back to defaults and leave alone.

To sort this your going to have to take a few steps back and deal with one issue at a time. So Forget the speed control for the moment We'll come back to speed and setting it up control later.
Leave external control turned off in VFD, just control speed thru the VFD for now.

Lets concentrate on getting control of the outputs that turn on/off the relays.

First I need to know the position of the Dip switches on the BOB.?

25-05-2015, 07:24 PM


26-05-2015, 12:29 PM
Ok well Dip switches are correct according to manual.

So we need to see whats happpening or not.!! . . . We need to see if the Relay is active so i'd recommend you disconnect the wires to VFD and check with a Meter rather than having VFD turn on/off.

First Type M5 into MDI to make sure spindle is off. Next test for continiuty between the Contacts of Relay #1 your using for RUN. It should have NO continuity.
If it does then change the Active State of that Output.
Now Type M3 into MDI and Check Contacts for continuity. You should now have Continuity and relay is active.
Type M5 and relay should drop out and Continuity drop.

If none of this happens then something is set wrong either in Mach3 or your wired wrong.? Only other thing it could be is the DIP switches are Wrong way around and the Relay is turned off on the BOB.!

To be honest we are getting to the point where it's very hard to help without being there at the machine.! What I've suggested may seem basic but it's necessary that things are done step by step before moving on to avoid confusion.!. . . Let me know what's happening.!!

26-05-2015, 02:22 PM
my pump stopped running so i went out to get another ,this time i bought a WHALE 12VDC SUBMERSIBLE TYPE. it can only operate for 15mins max. at a time so
i will have to set a relay ...
anyway, i tried as suggested Jazz and still no joy. I set PD001=1, PD002=1, disconnected the wires to relay 1 ( run/stop) and tested with meter , i then tried to trigger the relays alternating between M3 and M5 on the MDI window but the condition of relays never changed. however i can go to outputs tab and toggle the relays on/off and will get a result. this BOB came with a MACH 3 PROFILE to be downloaded from the ZAPP website http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/breakout-boards/plc4x-g2-breakout-board-236.html
this should be unzipped and placed in the MACH 3 folder . i should then use the MACH 3 loader to select the profile but when i do nothing works . if i use the MACH 3 loader to select the profile i had set up ( GARAGE PROFILE ) i'm able to operate the motors , etc. but have no joy with the relays , pwm .

Clive S
26-05-2015, 04:13 PM
I am not going to interfere with what Dean is trying to get you to do as this is a very difficult situation when working from afar.
Please don't take this the wrong way:cheerful: But you are not helping yourself and muddying the water when you bring things up that are nothing to do with this problem. So try and work methodically step by small step and give clear answers to the questions asked of you. Just straight bullet points are easier to follow.
As a matter of interest when you use M3,M5 do you hear a click from the relay? ..Clive

26-05-2015, 04:42 PM
anyway, i tried as suggested Jazz and still no joy. I set PD001=1, PD002=1, disconnected the wires to relay 1 ( run/stop) and tested with meter , i then tried to trigger the relays alternating between M3 and M5 on the MDI window but the condition of relays never changed. however i can go to outputs tab and toggle the relays on/off and will get a result.

How did you toggle it with the active state or the Enable.?

The output Active state is not a Switch for toggling any thing On/OFF. It's a Logic condition that needs to be set so things can work correctly.
The enable is just that.!! . .Your turning the output off. So if the relay changes state then you probably have the Wrong Active Logic set and relay is coming on straight away and by disabling the Output it gets turned off.!

Set Active LO(unticked) and try M3/M5 again if relay doesn't change state(or Click) Set it HI(ticked) and try M3/M5 again.

Don't go Chopping and changing settings all over the place as it really makes finding faults difficult. Only make one change then Test.

26-05-2015, 06:16 PM
i toggled the active state of the relays to see if mach3 could change the state of the relay from a non responsive state . i have them set back now to the folowing http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15425&stc=1 the run relay 1 is on constantly because of active high setting. if i input M3 the spindle will run at 250-300rpm . M5 stops the spindle again. the only relay to change state is the PWM dependant relay 3

26-05-2015, 07:43 PM
Paul your not listening properly because if you'd done as I suggested then the spindle wouldn't start at all. And the speed would be controlled from the VFD using what ever speed you set.

You need to take a few steps back and deal with one problem at a time. Stop changing settings willy nilly because this makes the Job of helping so much harder. All this does is waste yours and my time by chasing false issues. I need you to only change one thing at a time then report what happens.

First all you need to do is get Relay #1 working. Forget #2 & #3 we don't need them so you can turn them off on the BOB and disable them in Mach3.

Straight away I see that you have the Wrong Pin number set for Relay #1. It should be Pin 16 not 14.
Pin 14 is for the PWM Speed control which I believe is working fine just needs setting up for correct speeds which can be done later. NOT NOW.!!

So to re cap Tell me which terminals your connecting to on the Relay.
Set Output #1 = pin16 Active LO.
Turn off the Enable for Outputs #2, #3.

Next the relay will have 3 terminals which are you connecting to.?

26-05-2015, 08:15 PM
i have relay 1( OUTPUT 1)
set to pin 16, active LO. ( ticked) ( all other relays disabled. )
TERMINALS on relay

26-05-2015, 08:23 PM
RELAY 1 is on . i metered accross the N.O contact and common and have continuity.

26-05-2015, 08:36 PM
RELAY 1 is on . i metered accross the N.O contact and common and have continuity.

Ok well first makes sure Spindle is OFF. Type M5 in MDI. Check Continuity again.
If still got continiuty then Change active state (NO Tick) and Check continuity again. It should drop Off. Type M3 and it should give continiuty again.
If it does you are working correctly.

26-05-2015, 08:46 PM
On the side topic of pumps - I use a similar Whale pump. I use 12V to run it for a few seconds to purge bubbles more quickly, but I then run it on 5V. Seems to circulate enough water to keep the spindle cool, and I have run it like that for quite a few 5-6hr sessions continuously with no apparent ill effects.

Good luck with the Mach3/BOB issues!

26-05-2015, 08:55 PM
that's O.K. Relay turns on/off using M3/M5. i had to change active lo setting to set it correct way .

26-05-2015, 09:09 PM
that's O.K. Relay turns on/off using M3/M5. i had to change active lo setting to set it correct way .

Ok Great now next step is to test on VFD.

So first set VFD PD002 = 0. We are just testing ON/OFF for now so control speed on the VFD Key pad.

Set PD001 = 1 Then Connect wires Back to Relay contacts and M3/M5 should start and Stop VFD.

DO NOT TRY Controlling speed yet.!!

26-05-2015, 09:29 PM
that's fine, M3/M5 starts and stops spindle

26-05-2015, 10:20 PM
Ok great.!! . . . Now we can turn to speed control. But we are not going to connect any wires yet and stay with the meter.

First make sure Spindle output is enabled in Motor outputs and setup correctly. It should be set to:
Step pin = pin14
Step Port =1
Step Low active = No tick.

Next Spindle Setup. Go to Spindle control and select:
Use Spindle motor output = Ticked
PWM Control =Ticked
PWMbase Freq = 50%
MinimumPWM = 5%

Next go to menu Config/ Spindle pulleys:
Pulley #1
Minimum Speed = 0
Maximum Speed = 24000
Ratio = 1

Now set meter to DC volts. Put Positive Probe to FIV and Negative Probe to GND on XP24. ( You will need 10V from VFD connected to 10V on XP24 but leave ACM & VI disconnected)

With Spindle off (M5) you should have 0v on meter. Check this first before doing any thing.
If Ok and 0V then type M3 S12000 in MDI and you should read a voltage around 5v try this and let me know.!

26-05-2015, 10:32 PM
Now set meter to DC volts. Put Positive Probe to FIV and Negative Probe to GND on XP24. ( You will need 10V from VFD connected to 10V on XP24 but leave ACM & VI disconnected)

No sorry made a Mistake here.
You need 10V and ACM from VFD connected leave VI disconnected from FIV.

Still probe between FIV and GND to check Voltage coming out.

26-05-2015, 10:43 PM
i have
0.0 volts with M5 , as expected.
0.03 volts with M3 S12000

26-05-2015, 10:46 PM
i have
0.0 volts with M5 , as expected.
0.03 volts with M3 S12000

Did you read my correction.?

Also VFD will need to be powered up.

26-05-2015, 11:05 PM
0.0 v with M5
6.4v with M3 S12000

Clive S
26-05-2015, 11:31 PM

26-05-2015, 11:37 PM
:cheerful:funny man!!!

27-05-2015, 12:19 AM
0.0 v with M5
6.4v with M3 S12000

Ok well this is where it gets a little sketchy with this BOB because I'm not quite sure which settings to tweak to fine tune the voltage.

Start by changing the Spindle Pulley Max speed to a higher number then check the voltage and see if it goes down.?
We are looking to get around 5V With S12000 and 10V with S24000.

I'll try and see if I can find out how the speed Ref voltage is handled and changed with this BOB.

Ok well after bit of thought it occured to me that the Steps per setting in Motor tuning for spindle could be used as the Carrier frequency and with 2000 steps which I think you will be set at will give around 6V. So Leave spindle pulley Max set at 24000 and change the Steps per setting to 2400 and see what happens.?

Let me know.

27-05-2015, 12:32 PM
my meter started to fluctuate and give different readings so i had to wait and get a new battery this morning and double check the readings against the readings from last night .
New reading as follows:( checked at least 20 times!!)
1.5v with M5
8.1v with M3 S12000.
appologies for the delay and inconvenience.

27-05-2015, 06:53 PM
i set the Steps per in motor tuning to 2400 and the readings remained as follows :
1.5v with M5
7.9v to 8.1v , M3 S12000.

Clive S
27-05-2015, 09:05 PM
i set the Steps per in motor tuning to 2400 and the readings remained as follows :
1.5v with M5
7.9v to 8.1v , M3 S12000.In Deans temporary absence change the steps to 1600 and report back the Volts as before. But say in your post what you have done so Dean will know. Clive

27-05-2015, 11:28 PM
steps per , 1600
1.5v, M5
8.0v, M3 S12000.

Cheers Clive

28-05-2015, 01:54 PM
i decided to carry out some more tests and checked the voltage readings between FIV & GND .

i started with the spindle motor tuning and changed the ''STEPS PER'' using different values and checking the result for change

I also changed the spindle pulley max value just to see if that made a difference

all values recorded were fluctuating by + or - 0.1 volts .

i'm guessing that when i had the spindle control wired in and set up in MACH 3 that the issue of it runing on its own was down to the constant prescence of the 1.5 volts between terminals FIV & GND. i cannot seem to reduce this value as the tables reveal. the ''steps per '' value in motor tuning ( increase or reduction) had no bearing on the much sought after 5 volt target.

on the other hand , because Jazz had mentioned the '' spindle pulley max'' as a possible solution to the voltage target i decided to check that out .
the results show a reduction of the voltage towards the target value of 5 volts using M3 S12000 but the M3 S24000 results drifted below the 10 volt requirement . The ''M5 '' results held firm at the usual 1.5 v
so that is the state of play at the moment.
it would appear the the PWM can deliver a variable range of 5 to 6 volts and is constantly delivering 1.5 volts when spindle is programmed off.
Then again i might be reading the results incorrectly because i do not have the required knowledge to take this problem futher. perhaps there is another solution or variable that can come into play that will change the present outcome

Clive S
28-05-2015, 02:16 PM
As a matter of interest what do you get with S6000 Volts

28-05-2015, 02:30 PM
M3 S 6000 gives a reading of 4.1V @ '' MAX PULLEY '' 60000.

Clive S
28-05-2015, 02:38 PM
Ok and what is s3000 keep the pulley at 24000

28-05-2015, 02:43 PM
3.8 V @ S3000 . is there another variable i can change? what about the ''RATIO '' on the spindle pulley menu?

28-05-2015, 03:01 PM
Tried the ratio variable and it made no difference.

28-05-2015, 09:33 PM
Hi sorry I'm a little snowed under with work so been doing some late nights and I'm knackerd when come out of workshop late.

Ok I wasn't sure if the Steps per setting would have any affect but wanted you to check. Obviously it doesn't so forget this now.
Well look at the PWMBase Freq & MinPWM now and see how this affects things. I've still not had time to check this out further but I'll suggest some more things to try.
Only Try one at a time and reset back if it doesn't work before trying next.

First set Pulley back to 0 and 24000. Try using pulley #4 and see what affect this as.?

Next lets try to get 0V @ M5 so set Min base Freq to Zero and check with meter. If it has some affect then also check the voltage @ S12000.

Then try altering PWM base Freq and see what affects going up or down has to voltages. You should see some difference.

I would think playing with the Basefreq along with Pulleys should get you sorted. But again only try one thing at a time.

Unfortunately your at the point where helping from a distance isn't really possible as your down to fine tuning for speeds etc and that can only be done at the machine.

29-05-2015, 10:32 AM
Cheers Jazz, i'm away until late tonight myself so i'll have an avenue to explore when i get back. the more i get to play with the settings the more i'm beginning to understand the interactions of the process involved, Thanks once again.

02-06-2015, 10:37 PM
hi Neale, how do you control the 12 volt psu dropping out and the 5 volt kicking in?

02-06-2015, 11:31 PM
I have a 2-way centre-off switch mounted on my control box which has an old pc power supply in it. That gives me both +5 and +12 selected via the switch - purely manual operation. My new machine (under construction for rather too long now) will use gcode switching via the motion control card; I'm not sure yet whether to stick to 5V or to add a manual override to give a short 12V burst at the start of a session or when first pushing water through the system. Once the pipes are full, the system is balanced and it doesn't need much to keep the water circulating (from a bucket at the side of the bench - never gets very warm but I'm not working the spindle very hard).

06-06-2015, 03:55 PM
I have been busy most of the week but did have time to try and sort out the 1.5 v issue with the PWM on my breakout board. I tried changing the settings but didn't have any luck. in the end i had a read of http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7388-Fitting-a-pot-to-a-Chinese-Spindle-VFD (courtesy of Clive ) and decided to give this a go. i found a 10k 10 turn pot and it works a treat. i lost faith with the PWM control from the BOB because it ran on its own at a low R.P.M.when switched off and i didn't want to take any chances. The pot is on the door next to my P.C. so it worked out o.k.
. my next task is to flash the table top and get it ready for some tee slot extrusion . i will have to revisit the PWM at a later stage when i'm more familiar and comfortable with the whole experience.