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PAULRO
18-06-2014, 06:36 PM
Hello to all,
i have been reading the various project builds on this site and have decided to take the plunge and build a gantry style router. i have a background in machining/ maintenance/ welding/ m/ building , autocad / inventor etc. i'm hoping to avail of the excellent experiences and know how of the various builders on this site. i will use 80 x 80 x 5 box section for the frame but i'm at a loss for overall dimensions. my cutting area will be 1240 x 1240 ( 1/2 standard sheet ) i will be m/cing wood, polycarbonate and light aluminum from time to time. i will use profile rails , ball screws, nema 23 steppers (3) , provision for a 4th axis and a 2.2 kw spindle. so as stated i would like to know the overall size (out to out) of a machine of a similar nature. i will build it in my garage and want to minimize the space used so if any body has built a similar m/c and could get me up and running with the dims. it would be a great help to get the show on the road. by the way, all my selections so far are based on the excellent advice from the various builders on this site. i will post a sketch as soon as i have dims to get the ball rollin' !!!!

cheers,
paulro

JAZZCNC
19-06-2014, 04:23 PM
Not that simple really. Yes I could give you an idea of dimensions but to give accurate dimensions then you'd have to build parts of machine exactly the same as I do. IE: Gantry width , bearing spacing Etc.

Best soultion is to get your Autocad and inventor hat on and get sketching then your accurate dimensions will become clear.

PAULRO
24-06-2014, 09:52 PM
thanks Jazz, i got side tracked and had to change tack for the last week or so. i'm just getting back at the inventor so i should have some dwgs in a day or so.

PAULRO
25-06-2014, 09:23 PM
hi Jazz, i'm looking for dimensions for bearing blocks for 20 mm ballscrews, could you point me in the direction? i have been reading that fixed blocks at both ends is the best option, ya? i have a frame sketched and am starting into the y axis gantry design

JAZZCNC
25-06-2014, 10:42 PM
Here you go this should help.

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PAULRO
01-08-2014, 09:38 PM
At last i have an opportunity to get some images of the intended build posted for comment. i have read a lot of material on this forum and tried to include as much advice as possible . i haven't purchased any materials yet even though i'm itching to get started , but taking the advice given to other potential builders from Jazz, Jonathan , among others, i will build the frame first and then once i'm sure of key dims. i will take on the mechanical purchases and build. the gantry images are posted as a reference to my intended build but as always i'm open to suggestions.

the frame size should take a half a standard sheet ( 1220 x 1220 ) built from 80 x 80 box section. 5 mm wall for the top rails and 3 mm for the rest. the adjustable bed ( yellow) will be held in place by graduated 50 mm x 6 mm angle ( green) secured to the frames uprights. the stand alone box section ( blue ) is detachable to allow space for a fourth axis , eventually!!

i have a choice of extrusion for the gantry ( length 1610 mm ) either 100 x 50 , 4.18 kg/m, 120 x 40 , 4.35 kg /m or 120 x 40 , 6.8 kg /m .

the linear slides, 20 mm hiwins , ballscrews 16 mm and aluminum plate for gantry , 20 mm . i haven't any motor specs yet so i didn't finish the z axis assembly . I might use 20 mm linear slides on the z axis ( off cuts from the 2m x rails ) or just purchase 15 mm rails. i will use epoxy to create a plane for both x axis and a permanent bridge for this and the x axis motor to belt drive the twin ball screws, OR use separate motors for each x axis ballscrew. all to be decided with the advice from the experienced builders here, hopefully!!!! i'm also looking for some motor dims, nema 23 , 3nm. they seem to be the weapons of choice for what i'm about to take on , so if any one can point me in a direction for a reputable supplier that has dims i can use to finish the z axis dwgs i would appreciate it. cheers Paulro.

EddyCurrent
02-08-2014, 12:15 PM
Maybe you could incorporate into the fourth axis space something to allow this; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7688-Is-anyone-interested-in-cutting-dovetail-joints?p=59686#post59686

PAULRO
02-08-2014, 01:32 PM
ya , that is a great idea. that's what's great about this site , ideas get bounced around and seeds are sown. i've been on this site for the last year getting as much info. as possible and getting cash together at the same time for a router build. can't wait to get stuck in. i'm confident of the mechanical side of the build and have some electrical experience but will need help to get me through the potential pitfalls i think i will find myself in. hopefully i can rely on the experience of the previous builders on this forum.

EddyCurrent
04-08-2014, 08:12 PM
The gantry ends look quite substantial but I'm not sure how well the structure will resist twist at the centre, here's some info relating to that subject.
Machine stiffness; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7155-stiffness-measurements-cnc-mk3?p=54942#post54942
Stiffness calculator; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/2214-cnc-machine-stiffness-calculator?p=15791#post15791

JAZZCNC
05-08-2014, 04:13 PM
Hi Paulro,

Got your PM.

Yes the gantry will be fine for your use as a wood router and yes I've built one about same size using same design so know it works. What you doing with the ends of gantry and how you connecting to ballscrews.? Drawing with gantry mated to frame would be good to see.

Regards Y axis ballscrew mount then you'll need to brace the drop bracket more.

PAULRO
05-08-2014, 11:07 PM
I could go with a heavier extrusion if that would aid the machining of plastics and aluminum (light gauge) from time to time. i have a choice of extrusion for the gantry ( length 1610 mm ) either 100 x 50 , 4.18 kg/m, 120 x 40 , 4.35 kg /m or 120 x 40 , 6.8 kg /m. i don't know if that would make for a better or worse situation.

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the images above show the gantry attached. i have yet to spec motors so haven't any motors mounts designed. i'm currently getting through Irvings tutorial on motor specs. what a great read!! i'm hoping nema 23s 3nm will do the job , by the way if i do go with these motors should i go for the heaviest i can get? any thoughts on this and the gantry extrusion choice would be appreciated.:indecisiveness:

PAULRO
05-08-2014, 11:19 PM
by the way i'm going to use timing belts to connect to the ballscrews

Paulro:neglected:

JAZZCNC
06-08-2014, 12:48 AM
100x50 will be fine but if possible get the HD version.

3Nm motors will work ok with 16mm screws but with 20mm you'll need to slow things down due to extra inertia so you'll get lower rapid feeds.
You'll want 10mm pitch which will be more suited to wood and plastics. Now if you use 20mm pitch screws and gear 2:1 ratio then you will still get same feed rates as 10mm pitch with 3Nm motors but with a couple of nice advantages.?
The ratio halfs the speed 20mm pitch gives but this gives same feed and resolution as 10mm so we get same speed but with half the screw speed but at same time doubles the motor torque. Lower screw speed means less chance of whip on long screws so it's win win.!



You'll need to run the motors around 70Vdc on decent drives to get best from them.

EddyCurrent
06-08-2014, 10:28 AM
These are the motors I used, they perform well.
http://www.cnc4you.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=20_27&product_id=367

PAULRO
06-08-2014, 12:11 PM
i'm going to put this m/c in my garage and that has a 6 ^2 twin and earth supplying the fuse board. it has ELCB. protection and an MCB for lights and MCB for sockets which supply a freezer, washing m/c and dryer in a separate room at the back. am i exceeding the supply with a m/c spec of this size? would anyone know the amperage required for a build of this spec.?

crisis averted, i 'm told 6mm2 is good for 35 amps. should be fine, i hope!!!:smug:

EddyCurrent
06-08-2014, 11:16 PM
My shed is supplied by 6mm^2 armoured cable, I have a machine with 4HP motors and a powerfull dehumidifier, plus other smaller machinery. This works because there's only me in there so there are only 2 things at most operating at the same time.
I keep meaning to measure the current taken but as yet I've not found my clamp meter.

PAULRO
07-08-2014, 01:03 PM
originally i designed around 16 mm x 10 mm ballscrews for X (1440 long) and y ( 1395 long) and 16mm x 5mm for z . i know from reading your previous posts that the length is critical or rather going over a certain length will almost certainly introduce whip at high speeds. i would like at some stage to tackle a Mayan calender and so i'm curious about resolution if i go with a 20 mm pitch. I'm not sure also about the amount of clearance i should leave between ballnut and bearing blocks either end. is there a standard clearance that i should factor in ? i have left 15mm either end but i'm not sure if this is enough.

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i could also use nema 23 4Nm motors instead of 3Nm. (courtesy of Eddycurrent ) would the same psu ,motor drivers , smooth stepper, break out board etc. do for both? just trying to get a handle on the cost of everything required is a job in inself!!!!:hypnotysed:

JAZZCNC
07-08-2014, 01:36 PM
At this length then go with 16mm you'll be ok, 16mm will allow slightly faster acceleration due to less inertia. Resolution with 20mm isn't a problem because the ratio effectively makes it same as 10mm and even with 1:1 ratio 20mm res you'd still have enough to cut the mayan calender.

There's very little between the 3Nm and 4Nm motors in terms of performance so you wouldn't really see much differance. Either will work fine with what your planning to use. Just run them around 70Vdc and you'll be fine.

With bearing blocks/ballnut then all you need is to leave a enough clearance in case you over run limits. In which case the limits should stop the machine so you need enough clearence for the over run. That said your better fitting hard stops in case of over run and have the bearing blocks just past these.
To be honest I wouldn't sweat over it you can control this with adjusting limits and they take a fair old bang to damage anyway so worst you'll do is knock something out of alianment.

Let me just say if your at the point of planning in cad to this level of detail then your wasting time that could be better put to use building the machine because in reality you'll more than likely to see a better place to put them on the actual machine.!! . . . . . Time to put the pencils down and pick up the tools.

PAULRO
07-08-2014, 03:17 PM
it's time to put the overalls on o.k i should have steel middle of next week so i'll be fighting iron the following weekend. i'm just gathering the most info before i start into the build. i will be missing in action in the near future for a couple of weeks so i'd rather take time at this stage and plan it out . having said that i have enough info to get me up and running.:excitement:

EddyCurrent
07-08-2014, 08:53 PM
Just for the crack, keep a spreadsheet of everything you buy and the cost, maybe categorise as 'mechanical', 'electrical', 'sundries'

PAULRO
09-08-2014, 01:52 PM
it time to source linear rails, ballscrews , ball nuts , bearing blocks etc. so i'm looking for contact details for chai. i have found an email address for him but i'm getting no reply. i have looked at zapp but want to do a compare & contrast before i purchase. so if any body has his web address can they send it on?


cheers Paulro

EddyCurrent
09-08-2014, 02:19 PM
please check your pm inbox

PAULRO
10-08-2014, 06:47 PM
i have touched base with chai and just need to work out the 16mm ballscrew lengths. i also notice that the bearing shaft diameters for BK and BF are different and am curious to know why this is.
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this is my z axis end view, it has 20 mm rails and a travel of 160 mm. i'm thinking of a z axis ballscrew length of 400+ 30 for for a timing pulley. i'm sure this is enough or should i go more?

Clive S
10-08-2014, 09:22 PM
I may be wrong but the BK end will have AC type bearings and the BF end will have a radial bearing they use a larger bearing at the BK end. Not sure if they make the ac bearings in the same sizes as the radial.
You will need to order the F measurement on the screw to be at least 30mm I think Chai standard is 15mm. ..Clive

EddyCurrent
10-08-2014, 09:41 PM
this is my z axis end view, it has 20 mm rails and a travel of 160 mm. i'm thinking of a z axis ballscrew length of 400+ 30 for for a timing pulley. i'm sure this is enough or should i go more?

If the backplate is 400mm same as the spindle mounting plate you will likely want the outside faces of the bearing blocks to be 400mm apart so they are flush top and bottom, this will allow the maximum travel.
So the BK bearing is 25mm thick (excluding the end cap and locknut) the BF is 20mm thick, so that gives a ball screw length of 355mm between shoulders. Then 12mm turned section on the BF end, 69mm on the BK end (E+F = 39+30). Total length = 436mm. You have to allow for the Z ball nut thickness , this will reduce the overall travel, I drew mine out using Sketchup to make sure I was getting the expected travel.
Also you might as well get the ball screw as long as possible because the price difference for a few mm is going to negligible.
I know it might slow the build but in my case I waited until the ball screws arrived before cutting metal. It was easy to size the metal to the ball screws but impossible the other way round if in error. That's one of the reasons I built the electrical panel first, waiting for the stuff from China.

PAULRO
11-08-2014, 10:14 AM
Cheers Eddy, how long was the delay from Chai ? also did you get the ballscrews machined locally or by chai and if so would you recommend it? i might get it done locally because i have access to a lathe but if it's not too costly to get it done by Chai i might go that route but then i have read that some of the screws turn up slightly bent. i have used suppliers from china in a previous life ( job) and remember some of the parts delivered with poor packaging and very little protection ( not all suppliers ). it's very helpful to have the experience of previous builders who have gone down this route, hence all the questions!!!

EddyCurrent
11-08-2014, 12:12 PM
I think it took 18 days from payment to delivery. The machining was fine, exact dimensions, good fit to bearings, far cheaper than anywhere else. Holding the ball screws in a lathe is not as simple as a bit of round bar plus they are very hard on the outer skin.
The parts looked okay until I fitted them whereupon I noticed some bending. I decided to straighten them myself and it appears to have worked well enough, it's all in my build log.

PAULRO
12-08-2014, 08:36 PM
These are the motors I used, they perform well.
http://www.cnc4you.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=20_27&product_id=367

i had a look at these and will go ahead but i'm not up to speed with the rest of the gear required for the electric build . i'm hoping to get into 3d carving at some stage so i would like the m/c to be able to cope with that as well. i don't know if my design needs to be changed to accommodate this requirement. i read a reply to a post recently by jazz stating that a requirement for 3d carving is fast direction changes and high acceleration and it started me thinking that maybe i need to take other requirements into consideration and as my steel will be delivered this week i could make alterations to the frame to allow for this requirement. any input would be greatly appreciated on this.

EddyCurrent
12-08-2014, 10:41 PM
Regarding metal work, I think you have it sorted with respect to 3D carving, i.e. adjustable height bed, 4th axis option.
Have you thought about how the 4th axis will physically attach to the frame ? and will material held in the chuck be parallel to the X plane or the Y plane ?
I'm thinking about a 4th axis myself but there's no room in my control panel for the gear, but thinking about it I feel it would be best as a stand alone unit with control wiring back to the main panel via plug & socket.

JAZZCNC
13-08-2014, 12:10 AM
this is my z axis end view, it has 20 mm rails and a travel of 160 mm. i'm thinking of a z axis ballscrew length of 400+ 30 for for a timing pulley. i'm sure this is enough or should i go more?

Why is the rear plate so long.? you only need the rear plate long enough to fit bearings onto and give travel required. If your only wanting 160mm of movement then you would get away with shorter back plate and ballscrew.
Also one thing to take into account if your trying to get every last bit of travel out of screw is to allow for the bolt heads holding ballnut, you can easily loose 10mm depending on how tight you make it.
Regards the Z axis screw bearings then with screw being so short you don't really need one at the bottom if you want to keep cost down and it makes setting up that bit easier.

PAULRO
13-08-2014, 12:50 AM
i had intended to use 20 mm rails on the z axis but after reading the various posts of your good self I am now going to use 15mm rails and guides to suit so i think a redesign is in order.
the rear plate should be shorter alright i just left it long enough to house the motor with a body of 100mm long and a plate to hold it.
i suppose the travel of the z axis could be longer but i went with that travel because of all the discussions about the length of the lever created by the extension. i suppose it's another trade off , keeping it to a minimum while having enough scope to machine to a reasonable depth. i'll get cracking at it again tomorrow, my shutters are starting to descend !

JAZZCNC
13-08-2014, 09:11 AM
i had intended to use 20 mm rails on the z axis but after reading the various posts of your good self I am now going to use 15mm rails and guides to suit so i think a redesign is in order.

No I wouldn't. There's very little price difference between 15 & 20 and the bearing size and overall height makes building the z axis easier regards clearence for ballscrew. With 20mm you still need to machine a recess for the ball screw but it doesn't need to be so deep. With 15mm the recess is too deep so you end up having spacer blocks and this makes achieving accurecy that much harder.
In the past I've made Z axis for people who use 25mm rails just to get around having recess or spacer blocks thou I wouldn't take that route personally.

I've got 180mm on my Z axis and I rarely use more than 100mm and often it's much less than 80mm and most of this is for tool clearence not actual cutting depth so don't go chasing length as you'll probably never use it.
The fact you will have adjustable bed means you'll find a balance between Z extension and strength for the type of work your doing. This is the beauty of the movable bed you are very flexible and can always find the best height to suit the job IF NEEDED.!!! . . . I highlight these words becasue in practice you'll rarely move the bed (Because it's a pain in the arse resurfacing) but instead find that balance I've spoken off.
In normal DIY wood working every day use your very unlikely to use tools with over 100mm cutting length so I find 100mm is more than enough on a adjustable bed machine as I can always bring the work to the cutter if needed or create clearence by lowering bed.

PAULRO
13-08-2014, 10:44 AM
i had used 20 mm flanged bearing blocks in the original dwg and that impacted on the clearance for the ball screwnut. I had also designed the z axis plate to be machined at 160 mm wide to try and keep the gantry length to the minimum . I should have used 20 mm square type bearing block to give more clearance and accommodate the 160mm width. ya i will stick with the z axis travel of 150mm - 160mm and adjustable bed. good call. i will have to get a supplier organized for the guides and rails. I dealt with chinese suppliers in a previous job and there were reliable so i'll drop them a line and see where it takes me. maybe i should wait until i have secured the rails and guides before I go any further with the z axis design?

PAULRO
13-08-2014, 03:14 PM
Has anybody used the linear guides and rails from Chai? i have organised the ball screws from him and thought i would use his linear gear but only on a recommendation from the previous builders here.

PAULRO
13-08-2014, 11:14 PM
[QUOTE=EddyCurrent;60688
Have you thought about how the 4th axis will physically attach to the frame ? and will material held in the chuck be parallel to the X plane or the Y plane ?
I'm thinking about a 4th axis myself but there's no room in my control panel for the gear, but thinking about it I feel it would be best as a stand alone unit with control wiring back to the main panel via plug & socket.[/QUOTE]

apologies for the delay in getting back to you Eddy, i haven't decided whether to mount a plate to the inside frame to house the chuck or sit it on the blue frame dedicated for the fourth axis. I plan on clocking it true it with a clock attached to the gantry, with regard to the separate panel i hadn't really thought of that option but now that you say it ..... i haven't sourced a panel yet . i'm hoping to pick something up in the region of 800 x 600 x 200 deep if its not too expensive. i have off cuts of 1mm galvanized sheets getting in my way and if the parts that i ordered from Chai are on a slow boat then i might toy with that idea for a panel.
by the way can you recommend any supplier for linear rails ?
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EddyCurrent
13-08-2014, 11:28 PM
Don't be apologising to me, it's your thread. :untroubled:


by the way can you recommend any supplier for linear rails ?

Well sometimes I can't be bothered to piss about looking for the cheapest, so I go for the easiest. In my case I bought my rails and bearings from cnc4you.co.uk

JAZZCNC
13-08-2014, 11:57 PM
Has anybody used the linear guides and rails from Chai? i have organised the ball screws from him and thought i would use his linear gear but only on a recommendation from the previous builders here.

If your talking about the Profiled linear guides then yes I use them all the time and they are fine.

PAULRO
19-08-2014, 10:12 AM
steel has arrived and is cut and both sidewalls are welded.
1313813139

I have to string the crossbeams and tie both together.

I contacted http://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk /to purchase epoxy 105 and hardener 209 but drew a blank . apparently they don't stock 209 hardener but told me the 205 or 206 hardener are very similar but for pot time and cure time. has anybody used these hardeners? i'll probably go with the 206 because it has a longer pot life but would like some feed back before i do.

i also spoke to Chai about his linear guides and rails and the preloads are as follows
Z1: 0-0.02C or Z2: 0.02C-0.05C . i'm sure either of these will do the job but would like to know which preload is the preferred choice for wood routers.

Clive S
19-08-2014, 10:58 AM
Paul I contacted ecf as that is where I purchased mine from they don't stock it but they can order it, but they will not deliver it out of the country. Here is a chart that will show you the difference between 206 and 209 (page 3) http://www.paynesmarine.com/documents/Vol%2010%20Online%20PDF/Cleaners,%20Lubricants%20&%20Adhesives.pdf as far as I can see the 206 cure time is about 9 to 12 hours and the 209 has a cure time of 12-24 hours but the 209 is recommended in hotter conditions. The idea behind the slow cure time is not how long it takes to pour it, as that is only a few minuets but the time it takes to let it level out. ..Clive
.
I have done a bit of research and you can buy it in Dublin here:- Waller & Wickham
Unit 96, Baldoyle Industrial Estate, Dublin, , Republic of Ireland
353 18392330 He will be in his office around lunch time today.

JAZZCNC
19-08-2014, 11:13 AM
Clive Cmon he's in Ireland don't think finding a cool days is going to be a problem, . . dry day well !! . . :hysterical:

Paul I've used epoxy with equivalent cure times to 206 in past and had no problems but like clive says the conditions must be correct. Infact I've just ordered some 206 because ECF didn't have the 209 and couldn't wait or fancy being ripped off.( wanted nearly double the 206.!!) and I don't envisage any problems.

PAULRO
24-08-2014, 06:37 PM
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the frame is nearly finished. i have to weld in the table locators on each side and give it a lick of paint. it looks big ( it is ) but i said to myself that i may need upgradeability considering the growth of the DIY cncs over the past number of years and the bigger routers that are coming on stream.
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i also welded the electric cabinet frame together, 800 x 600 x 200 deep ( just under 3 lengths of 20 x 20 angle). i have 1mm galvanize to sheet it and some hinges knocking about somewhere.
the frame and cabinet should be finished by next weekend and then i'll get a moat organised for the dreaded epoxy pour!!

Jonathan
25-08-2014, 11:16 PM
Z1: 0-0.02C or Z2: 0.02C-0.05C . i'm sure either of these will do the job but would like to know which preload is the preferred choice for wood routers.

You get a slight increase in stiffness with higher preload, at the expense of lower life and higher driving force. For a wood router the change in stiffness is negligible compared to other parts of the system, so I'd go with Z1.

PAULRO
24-09-2014, 11:33 PM
At long last the very kind people in shannon customs have released my profiles and ballscrews,:whistle:i can now start in the next phase of the build.

PAULRO
14-01-2015, 12:14 AM
Well at long last I can get back to the build of this baby. i had to take a break and head abroad for a time but i'm back now with a clear run for the next few months . i poured the epoxy and left it cure for 72 hours and i'm pleased with the result. i had a heater running and had the cubicle locked up to control the heat. it has some air bubbles but i can live with that.

PAULRO
14-01-2015, 12:22 AM
I assembled the gantry and attached the bottom linear guide with its housing plate. i then used this to mount a hand held router and skim the the top linear slide bed. i took 0.4 mm deep across the entire length to ensure parallelism. it turned out o.k. but the weight of the router left an angle on the base so used the z axis assemble instead to machine it again and it turned out pretty good.

PAULRO
14-01-2015, 12:39 AM
i have the z axis built and assembled and i have the pulleys drilled and reamed ready to go but i rotated a ball nut to far and the bearings started to fall out so now i'm left with a basin of bearings and an empty ball nut . i have looked on line for some tutorial to enlighten me on the re-assembly but cannot find any thing.
the ballnut has 6 plastic change overs in it , 3 pairs at 180 degrees to each other . the ball nut is a 16 x 10 pitch with a double start thread. if any body has any experience of these i would be very obliged at this stage . i'm itching to get back at this build and move on to the electrics,

thanks in advance , Paulro

i will post more pics tomorrow once i have the ball nut assembled.

Jonathan
14-01-2015, 12:54 AM
You should be able to find examples on this forum - plenty of us have made that mistake!

Two ways I've found that work well:

1) Put grease on the balls to stick them to the nut, then gradually insert the retaining tube as you go to support them.
2) Put the biggest magnet you can find on the ballnut, so the balls stick to it in side. Carefully place them in the right place with something non-magnetic.

Lee Roberts
14-01-2015, 12:59 AM
Looking good so far, it happens see links below:

How to get the balls back in a ballnut? (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/5496-How-to-get-the-balls-back-in-a-ballnut?highlight=ballnut+ball+bearings)

RM1605 Ballnut Tubes ( keep the bearings in (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/3809-RM1605-Ballnut-Tubes-%28-keep-the-bearings-in-place-during-fitting-and-transport%29?highlight=ballnut+ball+bearings)ball bearings in a ball nut, how many? (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mycncuk.com%2Fthreads%2F8189-ball-bearings-in-a-ball-nut-how-many&ei=HrC1VILyB9blatumgdgG&usg=AFQjCNE9ViRAx5ty6zRBZePfhQd02a3KeQ&sig2=xHDKduD65g7VbWbj_nYM5g&bvm=bv.83339334,d.d2s)

Thread: ballnut - balls back in via the side cover and using less balls than original (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mycncuk.com%2Fthreads%2F6769-ballnut-balls-back-in-via-the-side-cover-and-using-less-balls-than-original&ei=wrC1VOzWO8LaatmOgLAF&usg=AFQjCNFEPDN83nVUDxhx9G4BmDpHRqDn1A&sig2=I-cOyK4bAT7hs40oJAWnHw&bvm=bv.83339334,d.d2s)[/B]

Thread: Re-filling a ball nut (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCkQrAIoAjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mycncuk.com%2Fthreads%2F3664-Re-filling-a-ball-nut&ei=wrC1VOzWO8LaatmOgLAF&usg=AFQjCNF8AqMchjyR_QGa7PtZ_Cb962QOcA&sig2=U5BlAlN_A5L-CL9PuTUH3g&bvm=bv.83339334,d.d2s)

There is also a few vids on ebay showing how to do it:


http://youtu.be/dGp56l0bsdA


http://youtu.be/4rjWH0UPA9U

.Me

EddyCurrent
14-01-2015, 10:25 AM
I like the idea of skimming the top with a router, provided the bottom rail is perfectly flat.

Same ball trouble here, this was the best video I found, the method worked great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qbVrRYzK5U

PAULRO
15-01-2015, 12:42 AM
The grease did the trick ok. 3 circuits, 16 balls ( dia. of 0.1245") in the first two and 17 in the last . it took a couple of trys but i got there. so cheers for the advice and videos links, very informative. the extrusion i used had a slight angle on the broad side and an incline on the narrow side .it played havoc with my assembly so i had to re- machine some supports and change the design of the gantry. i also spent a fair bit of time on the bottom Y rail to get it flat.

PAULRO
05-02-2015, 10:42 PM
Latest pics.... i clocked the bed top get it as true as possible . i will still M/C it when i get it powered up . i want to minimize the dust as much as possible. i have 2 nema 23 s , 4 NM for the x axis . i'm not sure if 1 motor would be enough and go with a belt drive for both ballscrews. i have read up on the different opinions here on this forum and on 1 versus 2 motors . the gantry with brackets , cables and spindle come in at 65 KGs .
i'm going to move on to the electrics next and spec the various drivers, power supplies and other miscellaneous parts that will be required to get this baby up and running
i would like to start on the electrics next so i'm hoping that someone here will give my nema 23s the thumbs up or down because i don't want to buy drivers for a motor configuration that is inadequate. i have pumped the numbers into Irvings spreadsheet ( what a piece of work , by the way) and they look good . i have read Eddys build a few times and hope to get my electrics as close as possible to his. Eddys ganrty is not as wide as mine and that why i'm curious about the 1 motor versus 2 on the x axis of my build and more to the point should i go with a nema 34 motor? any thoughts on the subject would surely nudge me on.
my build changed as it went on due to extrusion being extrusion. it all looked great in the CAD model but when i went to assemble it in the designed configuration ( L shape bolting 2 pieces together at 90 degrees) it kicked up and played havoc with the brackets supporting it so i had design around the headache. this in turn lead to a change in the z axis configuration. i have left scope for a revisit to mechanical build but for the time being i want to get it running and discover if it needs a revisit. Paulro

PAULRO
05-02-2015, 11:36 PM
more pics .the motor config. is repeated on the far side .

JAZZCNC
06-02-2015, 01:37 AM
more pics .the motor config. is repeated on the far side .

Why do you have what looks like a 3:1 ratio on the screws.? Even with a 10mm pitch screw 2:1 is bad idea if your planning on using as wood router.
2:1 ratio will slow you down to around 5 or 6mtr/min max rapids and for woods you'll want to be cutting at that. 3:1 would be even worse.!!
Stay with a 1:1 ratio is my advise if your cutting woods.

Regards the motors then it's preference thing mostly 2 x 3 or 4Nm 23's will easily handle 65Kg. I prefer single motor with belt for accurecy and piece of mind reasons but I'm equaly happy to use slaved motors provided the correct drives and precautions are used. Slaved motors work ok but I would only use them provided you have Digital drives that can detect stalled motors or have fault output so you can E-stop the system.
Digital drives have made slaved motors much safer in my opion with less stalling as they handle current so much better and can easily detect for stalls. They also dont loose steps as much as the old drives did.

PAULRO
06-02-2015, 01:58 AM
it's a 2:1 ratio. 18 tooth on the motor and 36 on the screw. i read a post in one of the blogs here that 2;1 ratio would be good for detail work but i can change to 1:1 if i could still achieve the required detail. thanks for the advice on the digital drives though.

JAZZCNC
06-02-2015, 02:33 AM
it's a 2:1 ratio. 18 tooth on the motor and 36 on the screw. i read a post in one of the blogs here that 2;1 ratio would be good for detail work but i can change to 1:1 if i could still achieve the required detail. thanks for the advice on the digital drives though.

What kind of detailed work.? 1:1 ratio on 10mm pitch will get you this kind of detail.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjDvimSdH8M

PAULRO
06-02-2015, 10:54 AM
that will do it for me so . i'll go with the 1:1 . i could replace the 18 tooth pulley for a 36 tooth pulley to create a 1:1 ratio or replace the 36 tooth pulley for 18 tooth pulley . i suppose it wouldn't matter either way , or would it? i'll replace the 36 tooth pulleys and be done with it.
excellent work on the calender. if i can reproduce that detail i'll be more than happy. i might get some more details on the M/Cing of that when the time comes , if you don't mind.

PAULRO
06-02-2015, 12:56 PM
By the way Jazz , i just had a look at the u tube video of leadshine closed loop stepper(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZdCcLQc4M) you posted and i have a couple of queries.( great video, by the way) would it be worth my while to attach encoders to my nema 23s?. i had planned on using AM882 drivers but i don't think they take feedback signals. i know they have stall detect ( you mentioned that previously).i would like to get as much info. as possible before i decide to press the BUY button. the closed loop system is a more attractive option in terms of constant feedback but that's as much as i know at this point.

PAULRO
06-02-2015, 02:53 PM
i had some play in the fixed bearing blocks (0.3 mm) . stripped them down and set them up again and still had end play. had to make some shims to eliminate it .

PAULRO
06-02-2015, 03:13 PM
i have gathered power supplies over the years and i'm, hoping to use some of these.i will have to either make a power supply for the drivers or buy one . i haven't decided yet . http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14624&stc=1

PAULRO
06-02-2015, 03:33 PM
more bits gathered down the years. i hope to use most of these also.

JAZZCNC
06-02-2015, 03:59 PM
i had some play in the fixed bearing blocks (0.3 mm) . stripped them down and set them up again and still had end play. had to make some shims to eliminate it .

Well unfortunatly this happens but when shimmed they are fine. Looking at the shim I'm not quite sure your shimming the inner race or outer.?
If it's the inner then the bearings are in the wrong way around. You want them back to back with a shim between outer races.


Regards the Leadshine Closed loop steppers then they are nice but expensive. If your using Mach3 then just attaching encoders to your steppers won't help at all because Mach is not closed loop and all it can do is report the encoder position it cannot correct for error like the leadshine servo stepper drives do.

The closed loop stepper drives actually close the loop within the drive not in the control software so when you see it correcting position Mach doesn't know anything about it. Now this is good and bad at same time.?
It's good that the drive monitors position using the encoder and corrects for any error but at the same time if any error as happened it's still an error which causes a break in continuity between drive and control software. Because the loop is contained within the drive and never reports any small positional errors to mach then In affect Mach becomes in front of the drive for a short period before the position catches backup in that axis. Other axis will carry on in front So Depending on the error amount it can affect the job so the error still shows up in the finished job.!! . . . . . This is also true of servos or any other drive that doesn't have true closed loop system that works in tandem with the control software to sync axis together.

If the positional or what's called following error gets too great then the drive will fault and e-stop the system (which in affect is what Stall detect does but much cruder) This following error can be set in the drive parameters to a small amount so if goes outside parameters then drive faults and system E-stops.
This is how most servos work but like I say the small errors have still happened and at some point will show up in the work.!!

This is why you'll often see people who have experience with both Servos and steppers on slower machines like mills etc say that Servos are no more accurate than steppers if steppers are setup and tuned correctly.! . . . Error is Error and will show in the work with either system.!!
In some ways servo or Semi closed loop is worse than standard stepper system because you'll never know where the Error comes from as each axis have caught back up so when job finished all looks well and in position but the work piece still shows error. With steppers any lost steps can clearly be seen in the axis as it won't return back to where it started.!!

Servo's rule when heavy loads and high feeds are required Or when going point to point very fast like in positioning systems. For Small/Med routers or Small/Med mills steppers can match servos no problem without closed loop.

PAULRO
06-02-2015, 04:07 PM
ya , that's the way the shims are in o.k bearings back to back and shim in between on the outer races. cheers for the run down on the closed loop . i think i'll stick with the original plan. steppers it is with the AM882 drives.

JAZZCNC
06-02-2015, 04:57 PM
y i think i'll stick with the original plan. steppers it is with the AM882 drives.

Good plan but make sure you make use of the Fault output so it E-stops the system when stall detect kicks in.!

PAULRO
10-02-2015, 01:08 PM
well, i've been reading most of the weekend on the electrics and control side of things and i'm still in 2 minds about my next step. i started on sourcing a power supply for the motors / drivers ( AM882) i was quoted 346 euros + vat for a 60 V DC SUPPLY so i think i will be building my own one !!!
i still have a few queries about the twin motor set up on the x axis ball screws. i'm a bit confused about the homing of each ballscrew separately. am i correct in saying that when i home the x axis, both motors engage and head for home simultaneously but because 1 motor might have lost steps during the course of machining they wont reach their respective home switch together? will the motor that has lost steps get to its home switch eventually albeit some time after the first motor and if so why do we need to home them independently.
i was reading( http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6418-Wobblycogs-CNC-Mk2/page8 ) about independently homing each axis because of missed steps and the strain it buts on the gantry. so my next question is about the distance they travel away from their respective switches before they stop and return. or have i got this concept wrong also!!:confusion: if i did decide to go the 1 motor route and upgrade the motor to a nema 34 and belt drive both ballscrews would the am8882 drive and 60 VDC POWER SUPPLY need to be upgraded also? it a question of cost at the moment and that's why i'm trying to have some upgradability if i do box myself into a corner with dual motors that need regular independent homing. all these choices are really playing havoc with the hamster in the hamster wheel upstairs.:confusion:
I THINK I FOUND A ANSWER TO THE ISSUE OF HOMINGhttp://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6565-Ready-Steady-Eddy/page30 / 32 , I wouldn't mind but i read that before!!

njhussey
10-02-2015, 01:35 PM
The steppers will generally only lose steps if they're tuned too close to their maximum speed and acceleration from my understanding and reading of Jazz's posts. There's plenty of people on here using twin setups and not many posts to say they're losing steps and racking the gantry. I'm in the same situation as you regarding the twin vs single stepper and I'm leaning towards the single Nema 34 with a different driver. The AM882 will not drive the Nema 34 with any sort of speed, 240V drives are best for them but they are more expensive! I'm going to use my spare 3.1Nm Nema 23 stepper and driver for a 4th axis when I get the Nema 34....

PAULRO
10-02-2015, 06:12 PM
that's good to know about the AM882 drive. originally i bought 4 nema 23 4Nm with the intention of using 1 each for the x,y,z and a spare for the fourth axis. but soon realized that i would probably need 2 for the x axis. ( 1 on each ball screw). maybe down the road i might just follow you down the road and replace the 2 23s for a 34, now that i know i will just keep going with the 23s and 60 VDC power supply. cheers for that.:thumsup:

Clive S
10-02-2015, 06:54 PM
Paulro The homing with the am882 drives is a doddle all you need is two inductive switches like this : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-3-Wire-6-36V-Inductive-Proximity-Sensor-Detection-Switch-NPN-LJ12A3-4-Z-AX-/390880485798 mounted one each side and adjusted so that they both trip at the same time when the gantry is square.
Then set homing slaved axis in Mach3 X with A (ask how to do this nearer the time) what happens then is when the home button is pressed the gantry will move to the end with the switches on and trip the switches. Then the gantry will back off the switch until it trips again. You can adjust the gantry square by adjusting one of the switches a little.
The machine will then make sure the gantry is squared every time you home the machine.

When using the AM882 drivers you wire up the stall detect (fault) terminals so that if one motor stalls it estops the router and saves any damage by racking the gantry. Hope this helps. ..Clive

JAZZCNC
10-02-2015, 09:52 PM
Clives answered the slaving question correctly but I'll give a little more detail.!
When the motors are slaved both move together towards each home switch. The first switch to hit a switch stops just it's own motor not both and reverse's off the switch. The other motor carry's on it's merry way until it hits the home switch and does the same.
Now in practice this happens so fast it appears as one motion. This is because if the gantry is setup correctly the switches should trip exactly at same time.
If your gantry is not quite square you can tweak it square by moving the switches slightly but all the same it still appears like one motion as the difference will and should be tiny.

Regards the Motors and single or twin motors then it's personal thing and close call in some respects. If using quality Digital drives with stall detect like AM882 then I wouldn't worry about it and it's far easier to setup and less messy on wide machines.

One thing I would suggest to get the best from the motors is that you use more than 60Vdc with 80v drives and if using toridal psu you'll easily get away with running 70vdc. The extra 10v makes all the difference and worth sizing psu to maximise the motors.

Regards the electronics then don't get carried away like Eddy current did because for home use it's really not required. YES safety is important and a decent emergency stop circuit is required but you don't have to go to lengths of using expensive safety relays like Pilz. Normal Relays will work just as well if sized correctly.
More important is that e-stop or safety circuit can not be reset unless any fault is cleared and that it removes power to any devise that might do you harm.
Limits I don't really class as emergency stop condition and more positional error so can be dealt with in a differant manner. Instead of killing Power to devices they can just inform the control software limit as been tripped so can halt G-code and at same time remove siganls to the drives by using the drive enable signal.
This should be done in such away that it halts the machine and won't allow reset until limit is cleared or over ridden but at same time leaves the drives powered and holding the motors under torque.
E-stop system should done in such away that it responds to outside events like Fault signals from drives, IE Stall detect, VFD/spindle fault or emergency button press. In which case power should be removed and again system not allowed to restart unless fault cleared.

Building a control box isn't difficult and doesn't need to be complex but it does need to be safe which is easily done using relays.

PAULRO
11-02-2015, 12:34 AM
well i'm glad i held off with the purchase of the 60 VDC PSU. i must get a sketch of a psu organised and post it here. i remember reading a thread posted here about the grounding issues and potential for error if the power supply is grounded incorrectly . i think it was in relation to the main screw of the coil touching or not touching the base plate . i'll have to dig it out and give it a read again. the homing issue can be put to bed for the time being at least , i 'm clear in my mind following the info from you guys here. with regards to the safety relay i think i will leave it for now and get the baby to take its first step with a decent level of safety using the relays that i have . down the road i will tackle the safety relay when i get more familiar with the whole experience. as always guys ... the advice is first class, cheers :applause:

JAZZCNC
11-02-2015, 12:45 AM
with regards to the safety relay i think i will leave it for now and get the baby to take its first step with a decent level of safety using the relays that i have . down the road i will tackle the safety relay when i get more familiar with the whole experience.

That's the point you don't need a safety relay at all. You just need standard relay/s wired such that they create a latch and drops the latch if an E-stop occurs. Latch can only be reset via momentary button after fault is cleared. Very easily done and costs very little.

Clive S
11-02-2015, 09:22 AM
i think it was in relation to the main screw of the coil touching or not touching the base plate . i'll have to dig it out and give it a read again. Paulro I think what you are referring to is the bolt that holds the toroidal transformer through the centre to the chassis. What you must not do is connect an earth wire to the end of the bolt that is not touching the chassis. The reason of this is that it will give you a shorted turn on the transformer by connecting the bolt from the two ends to the same point ie earth. ..Clive

PAULRO
11-02-2015, 03:47 PM
so i have a coil with 2 insulating rubber pads ( 1 per side of the coil) a steel dish washer to sit on top of 1 rubber pad and a bolt to secure the whole lot through the disc on to a metal plate that will be earthed anyway. so the steel disc will be earthed through the frame and if i put another earth at the top i'm creating a shorted turn. Standard Range Toroidal Transformers- CM0750225- 750VA 230v to 2x25v (http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/CM0750225/) that is good to know , i've been searching the forum for a thread that explained the construction but couldn't find it . by the way is my understanding of how the coil is assembled correct or am i assuming the assembly incorrectly?

njhussey
11-02-2015, 04:05 PM
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/8421-Power-supply-understanding?p=66783#post66783

There's a diagram of the power supply....there are a few posts on the forum where people have put links to the actual items that they have used...I'll be looking for them myself again soon!

EddyCurrent
11-02-2015, 07:26 PM
Here's a picture of how mine looks, the bridge rectifier is under those wires between the terminals and the capacitor.
14656

And here's a typical latch circuit

14657

PAULRO
11-02-2015, 08:28 PM
thanks guys i'm about to put the first elec dwg. together and when it's finished you might critique it and let me know:dread:

Clive S
11-02-2015, 09:16 PM
Here's a picture of how mine looks, the bridge rectifier is under those wires between the terminals and the capacitor.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14656&stc=1



Nice pic. Eddy but I only see one cap!! How big is it:barbershop_quartet_ ..Clive

EddyCurrent
11-02-2015, 10:26 PM
Nice pic. Eddy but I only see one cap!! How big is it:barbershop_quartet_ ..Clive


22000uF 100v

PAULRO
11-02-2015, 11:48 PM
well here is the PSU and e stop circuit . i'm not sure if my calcs. are correct so i could do with a second opinion. i have calculated for 5 motors but i'm only using 4 to get the me up and playing . the 5 motor will be for the A axis further on up the road ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIwEh6ZmFFs) i have calculated for the lowest cap. and rectifer but will go with something with more head room. any way , feed back would be great , cheers in advance

Clive S
12-02-2015, 12:06 AM
22000uF 100vWow that's big for one cap I am using 3 to get 14100uF may I ask where you got it. ..Clive

Clive S
12-02-2015, 12:10 AM
Paulro That looks fine to me the rectifiers are usually 30 - 50 A anyway. Not sure I would switch the earth out though. ..Clive

PAULRO
12-02-2015, 12:20 AM
yeah , what was i thinking? my record has 1 to many scratches!

EddyCurrent
12-02-2015, 10:27 AM
Wow that's big for one cap I am using 3 to get 14100uF may I ask where you got it. ..Clive

http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/22000-f-10-30-100v-screw-terminal-mounting-bolt-aluminium-electrolytic-capacit-50-4017

Clive S
12-02-2015, 10:44 AM
http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/22000-f-10-30-100v-screw-terminal-mounting-bolt-aluminium-electrolytic-capacit-50-4017
Thanks that clears that up I also bought mine there code 11-2910 @ 1.85 each x 3 =5.55 but they are discontinued now :livid:. So back to ebay or aliexpress if I need more. ..Clive

PAULRO
12-02-2015, 12:14 PM
cheers for the link Eddie. i was just about to press the go button on this http://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/0497596/ . i can get the bridge there alsohttp://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/kbpc3502-35a-200v-bridge-rect-mb352-47-3226

Clive S
12-02-2015, 03:06 PM
cheers for the link Eddie. i was just about to press the go button on this http://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/0497596/ . i can get the bridge there alsohttp://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/kbpc3502-35a-200v-bridge-rect-mb352-47-3226Have a search online for the caps make sure they are rated to 100v or higher you might be able to find them cheaper is you buy say 4700uf and then double them up Rapid also does the transformer as well 25 - 0 - 25v and wire the coil in series to make 50V ..Clive

PAULRO
13-02-2015, 02:20 PM
I would prefer to buy the drivers at Zapp but they have only 1 in stock. i phoned Gary but couldn't get through so i emailed him. Apparently the AM882 are discontinued and replaced with the EM806 which is'' the same or better specification as the AM8802 but a newer product'' . any thoughts on this would be helpful .

this is the psu coil Standard Range Toroidal Transformers- CM0750225- 750VA 230v to 2x25v (http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/CM0750225/) delivery next friday 20th.
capacitor http---www.rapidonline.com-electroni...apacit-50-4017 (http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/22000-f-10-30-100v-screw-terminal-mounting-bolt-aluminium-electrolytic-capacit-50-4017)
bridge rectiferKbpc3502 35a 200v Bridge Rect (mb352) - Rapid Online (http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/kbpc3502-35a-200v-bridge-rect-mb352-47-3226?utm_source=AffWin&utm_medium=Affiliate&awc=1799_1423834113_c03916b3ca731cc0adf46ff4f8113e ef).

JAZZCNC
13-02-2015, 03:39 PM
I would prefer to buy the drivers at Zapp but they have only 1 in stock. i phoned Gary but couldn't get through so i emailed him. Apparently the AM882 are discontinued and replaced with the EM806 which is'' the same or better specification as the AM8802 but a newer product'' . any thoughts on this would be helpful .

Yes they are slightly better and are affectively same drive just with updated software which allows slightly smoother running motors and less motor heating.
I've fitted loads of EM806 and If I had choice of AM or EM I'd get the EM everytime.

JAZZCNC
13-02-2015, 03:42 PM
this is the psu coil Standard Range Toroidal Transformers- CM0750225- 750VA 230v to 2x25v (http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/CM0750225/) delivery next friday 20th.

You don't need 750Va and could getaway with 625Va easily. Going large on the Va will just cause you more hassle with inrush and the extra current it provides you won't use or need.!

PAULRO
13-02-2015, 03:58 PM
cheers for the driver info. i had calculated for 5 motors even though i will only use 4 for the time being . the 5 will draw 13.2 amps @70 vdc hence the 750 VA.
The 625 VA delivers 11.90 amps. i hope my calcs are correct! is there a way around the in rush of current?

JAZZCNC
13-02-2015, 04:11 PM
is there a way around the in rush of current?

Yes Don't turn it ON. . . :joker:

You can build an inrush circuit using resistors, thermisters etc but I prefer to avoid this and use smallest transformer possible and then use a C or D rated fuse if still trips which I rarely do upto 625va. Can use slow blow fuses as well.

To be honest I very much doubt you'll ever run 5 Motors at same time that pull full amps at same time so I'd still go with 625Va and 12A.

IanS1
13-02-2015, 04:13 PM
As all 5 motors won't be drawing maximum current at the same time, allowing for around 70% of the total quoted current draw should be plenty.

PAULRO
13-02-2015, 04:46 PM
625 VA it is then ! every day is a day for learning.

PAULRO
14-02-2015, 10:18 PM
so i need 4 drivers EM806 a break out board and a smooth stepper. can anyone recommend a smooth stepper and a breakout board that's compatible with the drivers and where's the best place to purchase ?

EddyCurrent
16-02-2015, 01:15 PM
so i need 4 drivers EM806 a break out board and a smooth stepper. can anyone recommend a smooth stepper and a breakout board that's compatible with the drivers and where's the best place to purchase ?

Smooth Stepper is the name of a particular motion controller, it's not a generic name. http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/Parts___Accessories.html
There are alternatives to the smooth stepper, have a read here; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7718-Usb-smooth-stepper some have the breakout board built in I think.

PAULRO
20-02-2015, 03:03 PM
I have the PLCM-E3 motion control & PLC4X-G2 breakout board ordered but they will not be with me until march because of Chinese new year. i am using the time to try and get to grips with the electrics / electronics and hopefully start into the MACH 3 (getting to know you period !!) i know some builders on here do not use bleed resistors to drain the caps from the power supply . i was going to leave the drives drain the caps as suggested on various posts but on second thought said i would at least try and get to understand how it done and maybe use a bleed resistor across the n/c contact of the e/ stop relay to keep to good practice and safety as pointed out. i came across this https://www.digikey.com/document-redirector?doc=http://www.digikey.ie%2fWeb%20Export%2fSupplier%20Content %2ftt-electronics-welwyn-985%2fdocs%2ftt-electronics-capacitor-discharge-calculator.xls i have a result of 1000 ohms over 35 seconds with initial power at 4.9 watts. OR 1710 ohms for 60 seconds with initial power of 2.8 watts. i don't know if these resistors are viable because i've absolutely no prior experience to work from. maybe they will do or perhaps previous builders use a different spec. i have also updated my electrical dwg to reflect my proposed capacitor bleed arrangement. any feedback on this will once again be greatly appreciated.

EddyCurrent
20-02-2015, 04:17 PM
I like this better;

14708

The way you had it created a short circuit across the 70v DC, only relying on speed of operation of the relay to remove it.

PAULRO
20-02-2015, 05:21 PM
Cheers Eddy, i'll update that . the older i get the more cautious i'm becoming just as well i put it up for a critique. :thumsup:

Neale
21-02-2015, 09:20 AM
I'm not sure if I would bother with the relay switching if you are using a reasonably large value of R. Use something like 4K7, 3W, wired directly to the capacitors, and save a relay contact and associated wiring? Probably about the same current draw as three quiescent drivers, so maybe not worth the effort, but it would drain down the caps even if everything else were disconnected during testing. I must stick a meter across my power supply some time and see what happens - I don't have any bleed resistor in place.

JAZZCNC
21-02-2015, 11:39 AM
I must stick a meter across my power supply some time and see what happens - I don't have any bleed resistor in place.

Probably not a lot.! Depends how you wired the control box.?
If the Drives are kept in the circuit and not removed say thru a relay then they will drain the Caps resonably quickly to within 5V last time I checked.

Not a fan of leaving resistor in all the time as it's creating heat and we want to remove it not make it.!

EddyCurrent
21-02-2015, 12:01 PM
Not a fan of leaving resistor in all the time as it's creating heat and we want to remove it not make it.!

I agree with this, I tried it and it's amazing how much heat 3 watts can produce, especially in a control panel size box.

Neale
21-02-2015, 08:24 PM
Personally, I wouldn't bother with the resistor at all. Seems like unnecessary complication, given three or four drivers draining the caps on power-off. Main use would be draining the caps during testing with nothing else connected, but that's a bit artificial anyway. Heating was why I suggested the value I did, which would only be dissipating a watt or so, but why bother?

JAZZCNC
22-02-2015, 12:13 PM
Heating was why I suggested the value I did, which would only be dissipating a watt or so, but why bother?

Depends on how the control is wired.!
One reason to bother is that when a drive faults or E-stop occurs the motors will continue to rotate for fraction of second until power is drained. No big deal you'd think.!! . . BUT. . it is a big deal with Slaved motors if one drive faults and other doesn't because the one that doesn't fault remains under power until power is drained. The faulted drive removes power and stops rotating so the gantry gets racked every time.

EddyCurrent
22-02-2015, 12:45 PM
Depends on how the control is wired.!
One reason to bother is that when a drive faults or E-stop occurs the motors will continue to rotate for fraction of second until power is drained. No big deal you'd think.!! . . BUT. . it is a big deal with Slaved motors if one drive faults and other doesn't because the one that doesn't fault remains under power until power is drained. The faulted drive removes power and stops rotating so the gantry gets racked every time.

Unless you have the driver fault relays and enable signals integrated into the design, then they all stop together or as close together as possible.

PAULRO
22-02-2015, 08:49 PM
Initially i was not going to use a resistor because of the drivers draining as pointed out. i've read a lot of posts that discuss this and i know a lot of the experienced`builders don't bother because of the reasons stated. but i will be using a relay in the e/stop circuit anyway and it will have an empty N/C contact available so it's an extra terminal for the resistor and an extra piece of cable to hook it in. i think that's all that's required anyway? if i don't use it i will definitely integrate the fault relays and enable signals as Eddy suggested. on another note my toroidal coil arrived friday. i should have the cap and bridge this week, hopefully. the coil has 3 windings http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/CM0625225/ the colours are as follows: coil 1 BROWN / BLUE 1.6 ohms
coil 2 BLACK / RED 0.5 ohms
coil 3 YELLOW / ORANGE 0.5 ohms
so i assume from this that the following
Coil 1 = mains supply 230 vac
coil 2 = 25vac
coil 3 = 25vac
and if i join BLACK and YELLOW together power up and meter across RED and ORANGE i should get 50 vac OR 0 vac . a change of the secondary coil arrangement if i read 0 volts. i will try it tomorrow to see.

IanS1
22-02-2015, 11:41 PM
Recently bought one of the Airlink trafo's. Join black/yellow together and red/orange will give you 50v AC or there about.

JAZZCNC
22-02-2015, 11:57 PM
Unless you have the driver fault relays and enable signals integrated into the design, then they all stop together or as close together as possible.

Yes and exactly why I said depends on how control is wired.!! . . . Several why's to do same thing. Fact still remains that it's NOT ok if control NOT wired in correct Manner.!

PAULRO
23-02-2015, 01:50 AM
i'll have to give that a go. above all the system has to be safe and i would like to use the functionality of what the boards have to offer . the notion of draining the caps as quickly as possible is still worth a shot too because if i have to go into a cabinet with caps holding a charge then i rather go in when they're safe. i'll probably put a cover over the psu to be on the safe side. either way at least the conversations on the blogs really bring it home about the safety and choices available.

PAULRO
24-02-2015, 04:02 PM
i have 4 core 1.5mm sqrd. cy cable on order for the steppers, is there a recommended cable for the spindle?http://2.2KW WATER COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR 2.2KW VFD FREQUENCY DRIVE GERMANY WORTH OWNING | eBay.

JAZZCNC
24-02-2015, 04:16 PM
i have 4 core 1.5mm sqrd. cy cable on order for the steppers, is there a recommended cable for the spindle?http://2.2KW WATER COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR 2.2KW VFD FREQUENCY DRIVE GERMANY WORTH OWNING | eBay.

Same cable will work if you have ordered enough. Either don't use one of the cores or use the 4th core for an earth if you want. Personaly I don't bother with earth on spindle and just don't use 4th core.

EddyCurrent
24-02-2015, 05:05 PM
While the cable you have would work, and many people use that I'm sure, if you look in the manuals for 2.2kw drives you will see that 2.5mm^2 is generally recommended.
Also I think it's a good idea to take an earth directly to the spindle because if you have a motor to earth fault a lot of current will flow, if you don't have an earth wire it could flow though the bearings finding a path to earth and this could ruin them. If you were selling these things commercially they would have to meet regulations which most likely also encompass manufacturers recommendations, but if it's for yoursefl then you have to decide how far you want to go.

JAZZCNC
24-02-2015, 05:20 PM
While the cable you have would work, and many people use that I'm sure, if you look in the manuals for 2.2kw drives you will see that 2.5mm^2 is generally recommended.
Also I think it's a good idea to take an earth directly to the spindle because if you have a motor to earth fault a lot of current will flow, if you don't have an earth wire it could flow though the bearings finding a path to earth and this could ruin them. If you were selling these things commercially they would have to meet regulations which most likely also encompass manufacturers recommendations, but if it's for yoursefl then you have to decide how far you want to go.

These spindles only pull at Max 8amps the VFD manual is recommending to cover all bases. 1.5m/2 will easily handle 8A or anything you throw at these spindles. I've embedded my spindle in aluminium many many times pulling many amps stalling the spindle and loading it to the max without any issues using 1.5m/2 cable.

The machine should be earthed and adding another earth could create an earth loop and potential problems, it's happened many times before. The VFD is earthed and the shielding should go to the VFD earth point and that is enough. IME.!!

EddyCurrent
25-02-2015, 06:02 PM
These spindles only pull at Max 8amps the VFD manual is recommending to cover all bases. 1.5m/2 will easily handle 8A or anything you throw at these spindles. I've embedded my spindle in aluminium many many times pulling many amps stalling the spindle and loading it to the max without any issues using 1.5m/2 cable.

The machine should be earthed and adding another earth could create an earth loop and potential problems, it's happened many times before. The VFD is earthed and the shielding should go to the VFD earth point and that is enough. IME.!!

Well fancy that, all you time served people out there, you wasted four years of your life, it seems you didn't need to know all that stuff after all.

JAZZCNC
25-02-2015, 07:00 PM
Well fancy that, all you time served people out there, you wasted four years of your life, it seems you didn't need to know all that stuff after all.

Keep your knickers on Eddy wasn't saying your wrong or questioning your knowledge I'm saying 1.5mm is fine with these spindles after fitting many of these spindles without any troubles at all.!!. . Which I can't say about those being earthed at the spindle because I've had a few and seen several instances of people doing this and having ground loop troubles.

Also 2.5mm doesn't even fit the spindle connector so I doubt they where designed to use 2.5mm.!

PAULRO
26-02-2015, 11:12 PM
my Chinese spindle and vfd arrived today from Portsmouth.the coolant ports as can be seen had fittings previously fitted . i don't know if this is standard practice ( as in testing) or it's second hand spindle and passed on as new. if any one has a previous experience of this i would like to know before i go and contact the seller.
the VFD appears to be new and doesn't have any sings of previous use. Then again what do i know!! i had a read of
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/5814-The-2-2Kw-Chinese-Spindles-Info-Setup-and-Advice-More?highlight=CHINESE+SPINDLE to try and get to grips with the set up procedure . i'm curious to know if the settings listed in a post by Shinobiwan ( post 6) are still applicable . they are 2 years old but would save some unnecessary manual reading.

JAZZCNC
27-02-2015, 12:39 AM
Yes this is normal for them to be taken out after testing. They used to leave them in and they often got snapped off in transit, ive had many come like this. If the body was scratched then I'd be suspicous.

The settings Ant (shinobiwan) posted are still the same I believe.

PAULRO
27-02-2015, 01:13 AM
cheers Jazz , I didn't fancy getting into a paper trail with the supplier. the body looks fine , no evidence of a mounting bracket. i had a read of the manual and to be honest it would take another good couple of reads to filter out the stuff when compared to Ants post. i'll still need to go over it once i hook up the bob with spindle control. but at least i have enough info to get me testing the vfd with the spindle. thanks again.

PAULRO
01-03-2015, 07:18 PM
do i need an internet connection to set up the PLCM-E3 OR MACH 3? my garage is a blind spot for a decent signal.

JAZZCNC
01-03-2015, 07:54 PM
do i need an internet connection to set up the PLCM-E3 OR MACH 3? my garage is a blind spot for a decent signal.

Not for Mach3 but for the PLCM you may need certain windows system programs like DotNet etc to install plug-in and driver etc, depends how upto date your windows is.?

Clive S
01-03-2015, 09:09 PM
do i need an internet connection to set up the PLCM-E3 OR MACH 3? my garage is a blind spot for a decent signal.I think you just download the plugin to a usb stick then you can do it without a internet connection. You might be able to use some homeplug adaptors like these http://www.diy.com/departments/tp-link-nano-powerline-adaptor-starter-kit/806353_BQ.prd?gclid=CjwKEAiAjsunBRCy3LSlz_PJqCgSJA CJY7yKTXIREB0FlUh5aWorm-bpOrkvf9vF9EJIXMXHJaE1OBoC6anw_wcB&ecamp=SEAPLA806353_BQ&ef_id=VOMoVAAABaaxbGAz:20150301200758:s
Solwise do some good ones and TP link are good. ..Clive

PAULRO
04-03-2015, 12:50 PM
This did the trick , cheers Clive.
my capacitor has a button on top . i couldn't find any info about it .maybe someone here might know.......... i fitted some of the switches ,and a temp control ( cheers Eddie). on the door of the panel and put some crude shelves up for the P.C. I had the fans fitted sucking air out on top .with vents to draw air in at the sides. i then came across a post so i think i'll be changing it about.http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7831-Small-rigid-router-Design-advise-needed/page10?highlight=NEGATIVE+PRESSURE+ENCLOSUREi got this in the post ( cheers again Eddie) so the power supply is next to be tackled . so if i mount the coil on a plate and the plate is earthed , will that not in turn earth the bolt holding the coil? will that be enough or will i have to earth the bolt also?

Clive S
04-03-2015, 02:07 PM
so if i mount the coil on a plate and the plate is earthed , will that not in turn earth the bolt holding the coil? will that be enough or will i have to earth the bolt also
There is no problem earthing the bolt with the plate. What you MUST NOT do is earth both ends of the bolt as this would present a shorted turn to the coil.
Regarding the button I have not seen one before are you sure it is not just a vent. Clive

PAULRO
04-03-2015, 03:14 PM
maybe a vent as you said . i'll fire off an email to the supplier and see what comes back. cheers Clive

PAULRO
05-03-2015, 08:19 PM
i'm in the process of building the power supply and would like to know if thermal compound is used on the base of the rectifier and on the base of the capacitor. i don't know if it's advisable to mount these without it. i had a look online for paste but keep getting paste for cpu's .
will this do?

Clive S
05-03-2015, 11:14 PM
i'm in the process of building the power supply and would like to know if thermal compound is used on the base of the rectifier and on the base of the capacitor. i don't know if it's advisable to mount these without it. i had a look online for paste but keep getting paste for cpu's .
will this do?I mount the rectifier with thermal paste you don't use it on the caps. Paste for the cpu should be fine. ..Clive

PAULRO
06-03-2015, 03:53 PM
i decided to test the coil with a power up so i used a safe block , hooked up the brown and blue to 230 vac i then joined black and yellow together and red and orange together on the secondary and put them in a terminal connector . when i engaged the safe block the coil hummed for about a second and then stopped. i checked the fuse in the safe block ( 13 amp ) and it was blown so i tried again and the same thing happened. i metered the connector and obviously got no reading . am i correct in thinking that i should not have blown the fuse and should have 50v ac across the terminals?

Clive S
06-03-2015, 05:07 PM
Do you have a link for the coil?

You need to connect the two sec. coils in series so join red and yellow and measure black and orange 50V It might well blow the fuse on start up with a 625w coil
..Clive

PAULRO
06-03-2015, 05:32 PM
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/CM0625225/

just my luck to blow fuses. i thought i might have connected it wrong or perhaps i shouldn't have tested in in the manner in which i did. should i wait to get the rest of the supply hooked up or would that matter?

Clive S
06-03-2015, 05:58 PM
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers/chassis_mounting_toroidal_transformers_standard_ra nge/CM0625225/

just my luck to blow fuses. i thought i might have connected it wrong or perhaps i shouldn't have tested in in the manner in which i did. should i wait to get the rest of the supply hooked up or would that matter?
Ok short black and yellow together and take the output from red and orange then you should see 50V You have connected them in parallel . I think the fuse is blowing because of the surge. ..Clive

PAULRO
06-03-2015, 06:59 PM
cheers Clive , 52.1 beautiful V ac.

PAULRO
12-03-2015, 01:24 AM
finally got back to the power supply and got it set up . i'm reading 73 V DC . is this o.k. ? i know that 68 v dc is the magic number . is there a way to reduce it other than reducing the number of windings. i would not be comfortable with stripping out the coil to achieve that.

Clive S
12-03-2015, 08:59 AM
finally got back to the power supply and got it set up . i'm reading 73 V DC . is this o.k. ? i know that 68 v dc is the magic number . is there a way to reduce it other than reducing the number of windings. i would not be comfortable with stripping out the coil to achieve that.Its fine at that and are measuring it without a load as well also the mains voltage will fluctuate.
How about a pic. ..Clive

JAZZCNC
12-03-2015, 02:33 PM
finally got back to the power supply and got it set up . i'm reading 73 V DC . is this o.k. ? i know that 68 v dc is the magic number . is there a way to reduce it other than reducing the number of windings. i would not be comfortable with stripping out the coil to achieve that.

What drives are you using.? If 80V max then it will be fine but if 75V max then it's a little close for comfort because as Clive says mains does fluctuate. When your reading 73Vdc what is the Mains input reading.?
Also as Clive says you have no load so connect the drives with motors attached and then check.

PAULRO
12-03-2015, 06:35 PM
I'm waiting for the drives ( EM806) ,bob ( PLC4x-G2) , and motion control( PLCM-E3) card to arrive from Zapp. I just have the 70 V DC supply hooked up . i 'm hoping i'll have the electronics from Zapp tomorrow because i'll have a weekend run at the panel so hopefully the voltage will drop when i hook up the electronics and motors as you say. i 'm reading a steady 230 v ac at the input side. i haven't got the bleed resistor hooked up either and i'm still reading 45 v dc at the cap even though i powered it up for a minute or so yesterday. still, this is progress for me because i never built a supply before , so hats off once again to the heads sharing the knowledge.

PAULRO
13-03-2015, 08:43 PM
my electronics won't be with me until monday / tuesday . i had an email stating they're in transit , i put some more bits on the back plate i had an old 5vdc power supply plug in type set a side for the motion control card . i couldn't get a din mounted supply locally and i didn't want to wait for ebay so i'll give this a try. i still have to change the fans around on the box i'll tackle that tomorrow . i hope!!!

JAZZCNC
13-03-2015, 10:08 PM
Can I make a few suggestions.!!

I wouldn't locate the VFD and the PSU next to the BOB and Motion control card and drives. Both these are very noisey devices and they could introduce noise onto the signal wires.
Ideally you want them furthest away from any signal devices like BOB and Drives.

Personally i'd have PSU and VFD at top and Drives/BOB/Control at bottom with Connections/24V psu etc in between with separation.

PAULRO
15-03-2015, 03:36 PM
I had to put a breaker into my main board to support the extra load for this cnc and i forgot to power down my p.c. so the end result was a p.c. with a blown power supply .
i had a spare one from another m/c but it had different connectors so i spent the morning cutting and pasting.... who needs it ? anyway i changed the panel around and put the noisy bits on top i have to put more fuse holders, terminals etc. in tomorrow.

PAULRO
25-03-2015, 12:53 PM
i 'm just getting back into the build today and i have the electronics mounted on the back plate. i have a query regarding the fuses for the 70 V DC power supply. i have the fuses on the negative side of the supply , is that o.k. ?

Clive S
25-03-2015, 01:09 PM
i 'm just getting back into the build today and i have the electronics mounted on the back plate. i have a query regarding the fuses for the 70 V DC power supply. i have the fuses on the negative side of the supply , is that o.k. ?Its good practise to put fuses in the +ve side and the mcb for the input to the transformer appears to be 3A I would think you need more like 6A because of the inrush to the coil and rate it to a motor type ..Clive

PAULRO
25-03-2015, 01:20 PM
cheers Clive , i have a 6A in there , i just for got to update the dwg.! i better change the fuses around .:applause:

PAULRO
26-03-2015, 05:39 PM
O.K. state of play so far is that i have the back panel in the cabinet and i'm doing some electrical dwgs so i can at least give myself a fighting chance to get it right . i have a couple of queries before i go and start lashing in wires though. this is what i think i know from reading the posts , so i just need some nudging .

1......am i correct in saying that i need a separate input for the slave home switch?
2 .... i need a separate input for the rest of the home switches combined in series.
3... because i'm combining both limits and home into a single switch i must keep the e stop on a separate input.
4... i also need an input for feed / hold
5..... and an input for stop.
bring my total of inputs to 5 ( MAX. allowed)

i also have alarm terminals on my drive so i'm curious about how i can get these in to an input. i will post some drawings of my proposed electrics as soon as i'm finished.

Clive S
26-03-2015, 06:33 PM
Ok
1: = yes
2: = yes
3: = yes
4: = yes
5: = yes
You can add an extra two BOB's to your motion controller if you like then you would have 15 inputs. ..Clive

JAZZCNC
26-03-2015, 07:35 PM
If your going to have a feed hold button then you need a Cycle start button to get going again so you'll need an input for that. No point having External feed hold button without cycle Start.!

Also with homing and Slaving then you need to make sure " Home slave with Master" is UN-Ticked in General Config.

Also UN-Tick " Home sw Safety" if your sharing limit & home switches as the switch will be treat as Limit when homing and E-stop the system.

With #3 then you don't need E-stop on it's own Input if wired in series with limits just Set the E-stop Pin to same number as the input your using.! Then when switch is pressed Both Limit and E-stop Led will light in Diagnostics.

PAULRO
26-03-2015, 08:09 PM
I thought that if i use 1 input for the limits and estop i won;t be able to reset because the m/c will be on a limit thereby inhibiting a reset. or have i got this all wrong? i think i will leave the feed / hold out for the time being and just go with e/stop, stop, limits /home, and A home. at least until i become more familiar and have a better understanding of the process. I also have another input dedicated for force turn off enable so i will use this to take a fault signal from the drives.

PAULRO
26-03-2015, 09:34 PM
I couldn't upload a PDF so i had to save as a jpeg. who needs it? Anyway , here's my proposed wiring diagram for the BOB. I have 1 more input left. XP30 is a dedicated forced turning off ENABLE. My understanding of this is that if a fault occurs in a drive then the alarm will trigger an input to XP30 and the drive will be disabled. is this a correct assumption?

PAULRO
26-03-2015, 10:39 PM
Ok
1: = yes
2: = yes
3: = yes
4: = yes
5: = yes
You can add an extra two BOB's to your motion controller if you like then you would have 15 inputs. ..Clive


maybe down the road i might contemplate an extra BOB . i have to get this set up right first and get very familiar with the whole process.:jaded:

PAULRO
27-03-2015, 02:07 PM
right guys, this is probably a dumb question but i ask it any way, if 1 switch can be used as a home switch and limit switch to monitor an axis ( that's 4 switches in total for X,Y,Z, including a separate switch for the slaved A axis home) why would some builders need 3 switches per axis , total of 10 including a separate switch for the slaved A axis home? if the limits are separate to the home would they not need an extra input to the already limited no. available on the LPT port? there is also a cost factor for the extra switches. i have to be missing something here.
My build so far has accommodation for an e stop hard wired to drop out the drives and as an input to the BOB for MACH 3. is there a need for a hard wired stop switch on the panel door? and if so how does it differ from an estop? I'm sure i can stop and pause the machine from MACH 3. is this adequate?
is it ok to use the main switch to drop out the power supply to the drives or should i have a switch after the power supply to control the drives and leave the power supply powered up when configuring the drives. does it matter?
i think i'm at a stage where i need to get the machine up and running with an adequate level of safety built in. i can then add the extras as i become more familiar and comfortable with the experience. any thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

JAZZCNC
27-03-2015, 02:14 PM
I thought that if i use 1 input for the limits and estop i won;t be able to reset because the m/c will be on a limit thereby inhibiting a reset. or have i got this all wrong?

Sorry delay replying went out last night for a pint which turned into Gallon then Amnesia.!! . . Well No and yes to getting it wrong.?
Mach as feature called Auto Limit Override which lets you Reset after Limit trip so you can Back off.

But With the E-stop then if your combining Limits and E-stop in same circuit and using Relays for hardware driven system (which you really should be) then you will need some Limit over ride Switch to reset the Relays. If using this setup then you can use the same Relay to inform Mach e-stop Happened and then just set Limits to watch same Pin if you want. With a Hardware driven safety system all your really doing is informing software an E-stop happened so it halts the Code and won't Reset until fault cleared. The actual safety side is done by the Relays and Never should be done by software.

Now personally I don't combine E-stop and limits because limit trip isn't an Emergency it's more positional error. I have Limits and Homes combined and limits do 2 jobs they Inform the Control limit as tripped and they disable the Enable on the drive so Motors are still locked but won't recieve signals.
Again a Limit override button is needed if disabeling the Enables on drives. If you don't disable the drives and just Inform the control you can get away with using Mach's Auto limit override feature.

JAZZCNC
27-03-2015, 02:39 PM
right guys, this is probably a dumb question but i ask it any way, if 1 switch can be used as a home switch and limit switch to monitor an axis ( that's 4 switches in total for X,Y,Z, including a separate switch for the slaved A axis home) why would some builders need 3 switches per axis , total of 10 including a separate switch for the slaved A axis home? if the limits are separate to the home would they not need an extra input to the already limited no. available on the LPT port? there is also a cost factor for the extra switches. i have to be missing something here.
My build so far has accommodation for an e stop hard wired to drop out the drives and as an input to the BOB for MACH 3. is there a need for a hard wired stop switch on the panel door? and if so how does it differ from an estop? I'm sure i can stop and pause the machine from MACH 3. is this adequate?
is it ok to use the main switch to drop out the power supply to the drives or should i have a switch after the power supply to control the drives and leave the power supply powered up when configuring the drives. does it matter?
i think i'm at a stage where i need to get the machine up and running with an adequate level of safety built in. i can then add the extras as i become more familiar and comfortable with the experience. any thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

Ok well couple reasons for 3 switches is if they wanted to home all axis at same time, Mach standard way would do Z first then Y then X which takes longer than if all Axis move at same time. Other reason is to have Home switch in a different place to limit switch.
If you want to cut down on Switches and Wire then just use 1 switch and have it travel with the Axis being tripped by targets at each end.

For DIY use then you don't need Hard wired door switch IMO but if you did want a Simple setup then Yes just run switch in series with E-stop circuit.
Correct way would be a Door contactor that won't let you Open door without turning power off but they are Expensive and OTT for DIY user with Common sense.

To me even in DIY use then Safety is still important but does need to be kept real.
If you use a Hardware Driven E-stop Circuit that disables power to anything that can hurt you using Contactors and relays then it's more than safe enough. You should never rely on software for Emergency stopping the machine.

Like I say Limits are not an Emergency incident so just Halting and prohibiting machine movement is ok.

If your unsure of how to build Safe E-stop system with Relays etc then let me know and I'll knock you something up.

PAULRO
27-03-2015, 03:20 PM
that's the way i would like to have my set up . a separate estop that drops out the power supply which in turn drops out the drives.
my limits and home switches combined and informing mach 3 when they are triggered.
so if i'm reading you correctly then the limit switch when triggered is also wired to the enable on the drive thereby disabling the drives so that's when the override is required? or i can use the limit switch trigger input to MACH 3 to stop the motors and use the Auto Limit Overide feature. ?
l

JAZZCNC
27-03-2015, 04:06 PM
so if i'm reading you correctly then the limit switch when triggered is also wired to the enable on the drive thereby disabling the drives so that's when the override is required? or i can use the limit switch trigger input to MACH 3 to stop the motors and use the Auto Limit Overide feature. ?

The way I do it is to use a Relay for limits. This means I can use 24V thru the switches to power the relay coil, in my case Proximity switches, which gives best immunity against noise.
The drive enables are then sent thru one set of NC contacts, The Limit input is sent thru another set NO contacts.
Override is by way of Momentary button and Alarm buzzer to between 24V and relay coil to allow limit switch to be over ridden.

picture paints 1000 words.!
15017

PAULRO
27-03-2015, 05:38 PM
yeah, the picture makes it all clear now. thanks Jazz. that's a great circuit i'll have to use that if you don't mind.
that has cleared up a lot of queries for me . the enable was really puzzling , as in do i wire it or do i leave it unconnected, but that picture, as you say paints a thousand words. if i connect the enable +,- as in the picture does that mean i don't need the enable +,- connected to the BOBs corresponding terminals?
1 last query to get me further down the road if you don't mind, am i right in saying that the limit input to the bob and on to MACH 3 is enough to get the motors into reverse when the override is triggered?

JAZZCNC
27-03-2015, 06:38 PM
if i connect the enable +,- as in the picture does that mean i don't need the enable +,- connected to the BOBs corresponding terminals?

Probably not but Depends on the BOB.! . . . what are you using.?
It's common for the Enable on drives to not be connected but in this case we are using it to ensure no signals get to the drives so no movement can happen while at same time leaving the motors energised and Holding position.


1 last query to get me further down the road if you don't mind, am i right in saying that the limit input to the bob and on to MACH 3 is enough to get the motors into reverse when the override is triggered?

Yes but you have to Hold down the Override Button to allow Mach to Reset so you can Reverse off the switch at which point the Relay will stay ON and mach will remain Reset untill something changes. Over riding anything should be warned about and thats why I use a buzzer but it is optional.

PAULRO
27-03-2015, 06:56 PM
i'm using a PLC4x-G2 breakout boardhttp://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15018&stc=1 .

JAZZCNC
27-03-2015, 07:40 PM
Ok well think things could all change now if you wanted because I'm pretty sure that Bob can handle 24v thru it's inputs.? The manual certainly shows them using 12V.

So in this case you could remove the Relays and run 24V thru the Limit switches wired in series just the same but directly to the BOB Limit inputs. I think you'd still need an Over ride button as the Inputs are driving the Enable output so Mach's Auto limit override won't turn these back on.
Then connect the Enables on the BOB to the Enables on drives.

Or just go with my first suggestion if you prefer and want to play safe regards what the Inputs can handle.!

New pic.

Edit: Yes those inputs have 30V Max so your good to go with this Pic.

15019

PAULRO
03-04-2015, 07:13 PM
i have my drives on the back plate and i'm at the point of wiring up the signals from the B.O.B. . I am using shielded twisted pair, 24 awg , 6 core, for the pulse, direction & enable signals. do i earth the shield or leave it ? the cable run is not very long and its in the cabinet. i know i 'll earth the shield of all the out side cables once they return to the cabinet , (star connection). i'll be using shrink wrap to tidy up the loose ends when i trim the cable back.
i could use 8 core twisted pair ( shielded) and that would bring my alarms from all drives back to a terminal block where i can wire into from my power supply. i have to read up a bit more on the alarms though, the more i read the more questions i have!

JAZZCNC
03-04-2015, 08:59 PM
Will be fine without shield to earth for short runs just try to keep any signal wires away from higher voltage wires like Mains.

Clive S
03-04-2015, 09:49 PM
Paulro
I have used just cat5 twisted pair to each drive cable for the step/dir etc just keep them away from the motor cy cables.

Not necessary to screen them

PAULRO
07-04-2015, 12:41 AM
i thought i had cat 5 cable but it turned out to be shielded 3 pair twisted so used that. the cat 5 cable wil surly turn up now that i have the drives wired. i have yet to wire the fault terminals from the em806 drives to the dedicated estop input which disables the drives once triggered but i can't find any examples on the forum so if any one can shed some light to get the subject......... i also set the micro stepping to 1600, is this o.k.?

JAZZCNC
07-04-2015, 10:45 AM
i thought i had cat 5 cable but it turned out to be shielded 3 pair twisted so used that. the cat 5 cable wil surly turn up now that i have the drives wired. i have yet to wire the fault terminals from the em806 drives to the dedicated estop input which disables the drives once triggered but i can't find any examples on the forum so if any one can shed some light to get the subject......... i also set the micro stepping to 1600, is this o.k.?

1600 MS is fine.

Several ways to use the Fault signal but an easy and safe way is use a Relay with the coils wired in parallel running thru fault signals set Active low and the E-stop running thru a NC contact. This way when any of the drives fault triggers it turns on the relay which opens the NC contact triggering the e-stop.
The E-stop should then kill power to the drives which in turn drops power to the relay allowing E-stop Reset and the drive fault is cleared because power was removed and fault reset on new start up.!

Other way is not very safe as it's relying on control software to stop machine but very easy to wire. It also doesn't clear the fault so you'll need to reset the drives manually. ( For this to work set Input to Active High in Mach3)

drawn both to show.

15103

PAULRO
07-04-2015, 07:30 PM
Thanks for that Jazz, i got totally confused trying to accommodate a hardwired circuit with the e stop and an alarm input to the BOB( both versions of what you have sketched). my BOB has a dedicated input for force turning off the ENABLE, at least i think that's what it does. i'm trying to use just 1 relay and as it stands and i have that in the PSU & e/ stop circuit. I have updated the dwg to reflect what i think is your schematic. i probably don't need an input from the alarm drives to the BOB. i got caught up in thinking that an input to MACH 3 was required. i also had a look at Eddies dwg and saw that the alarms from his drives were in series so that added more ??????. as in connecting a ground wire to the positive terminal of the alarm drive and out the negative terminal and on to the next drives positive terminal etc. that really had me confused along with a dose of the flu which got my head in a spin. i don't need an e/stop signal to the BOB so on reflection , or do i?

PAULRO
07-04-2015, 11:28 PM
my psu breaker keeps tripping when i power up . it's a 6 amp, C rated. i think it's either the relay or the push switch i'm using .when i bypass both of them and use the switch on the door to power up everything's fine . i'll have another go at it tomorrow. perhaps a safety relay might be getting a call from the bench sooner than planned. on reflection after some reading i'm sure i will be using an input on my BOB for an E/stop. Mach 3 tutorials reveal alot!!!!

Clive S
08-04-2015, 12:28 AM
Depending how big your transformer is you might have to rate the mcb a little higher see this: http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/MCBs/Static.raction ..Clive

JAZZCNC
08-04-2015, 12:35 AM
I need a re-cap on what your using for the main PSU.! . . . Safety relay won't do anything for inrush current if your using toroidal PSU.
If PSU is toroidal then try a D rated MCB.!! . . . . But first you need check everything else is wired correct because the relay and switch shouldn't make any difference so if removing made a difference then suggests you got something wrong.?

Also Not sure what your meaning by using an Input for E-stop.?. . . If your meaning to ONLY use an input for the e-stop then it's a Bad idea.!! All you will be doing is relying on the Software to stop the machine which isn't safe at all.
The correct way is to remove power using relays and then inform Control software the E-stop as happened via an input. Only thing the Input is used for is telling software to stop the G-code and don't allow Control to reset until input state changes.

PAULRO
08-04-2015, 10:14 AM
I checked the wiring and it's all fine, once i power up it trips. if i reset it and and power up again but this time restricting the MCB ( momentarily) from tripping then it works. so i thought i would rewire it temporarily and take the relay out of the PSU circuit and just go from main switch to MCB to primary coil of PSU and that too works a treat( MCB not tripping ).
ya, i will leave the e/stop hardwired to dropout the PSU but inform MACH3 through the BOB that an e/stop has occurred so it can do its duty.

JAZZCNC
08-04-2015, 10:30 AM
If you have one just for testing sake then try a 10amp Mcb it may work for you to get going and check all the sytem correctly.
Don't cut corners with the electrical safety or hot wiring system just to get going as it will bite you if not careful either by frying components or not stopping as expected etc.!! . . . . I'm very confident with wiring these machines and still I get caught out when hot wiring to get some thing going so be warned.!!!

PAULRO
08-04-2015, 01:00 PM
i changed out the relay and it didn't trip ! this is something that i don't uderstand , i have a bank of 8 second hand relays from a m/c that was decommissioned about 6-7 years ago so maybe it's because the one i used had some mileage up on it, i don't know. but anyway it great to resolve that issue. i had ordered a D rated MCB before i got around to changing it out so at least i will have that as a backup.
on reflection i dont think my latest dwg of the alarm circuit will cut the mustard. my understanding of open collector terminals was not correct, i'm thinking. i have my alarms in the circuit and expected them to work as normally closed contacts, so i will go with the 2nd relay as suggested by your good self Jazz .

PAULRO
17-04-2015, 03:30 PM
My broadband went down early in the week so i decided to get the cable runs organised. i also fitted the home/ limit switches. i had gathered switches down the years so i decided to use them istead of sensors . Clive posted a link some posts back to some sensors that i will use if these don't work out. i also cut an opening in the door for a small window on hinges so i can see the VFD and adjust accordingly. i'm still a bit unsure about the inputs to the BOB ( which i plan to tackle next) i have a dwg. organised relating to the E/ STOP input to the BOB which i hope some will have alook at and give me the thumbs up or down.
my query related to if i have the e/stop connected to the BOB correctly . is it o.k to take a tap after the e/stop as per dwg and use this as an input? this terminal disables the enable to the drives . i'm still trying to get my head around the fact that i can hook a supply and a ground to the terminals provided without having a dead short and blowing the BOB .

Clive S
17-04-2015, 04:14 PM
Are you controlling the vfd via mach3 or are you changing the speed by the panel on the vfd if so I did a post here http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7388-Fitting-a-pot-to-a-Chinese-Spindle-VFD post 1 its a very simple mod only taking a few minutes. The front panel just clips out ..Clive

PAULRO
17-04-2015, 05:17 PM
i have a breakout board that has PWM capability , from what i can gather. i haven't got around to the spindle side of the build yet! i'm trying to get my head around getting these motors to turn and getting the inputs to signal. i was hoping to get the M/C up and running with the basic controls and safety functioning and when i become comfortable with the operation going back at the spindle control. for the time being i would use the VFD . if the PWM doesn't work out , then i would definitely go the route of the link you posted, in fact it would be quicker to adjust a pot and have an instant response i would think, especially if the pot was mounted in a home made pendant that could be brought to the front of the M/C? i have my machine e/stop on a lead that i can mount either side of the machine on a hanging bracket and i could incorporate the pot and some other controls as i become more familiar with the process. by the way , is my understanding of how i should incorporate the e / stop to the BOB correct? i'm reallly not too sure if i'm right.

Clive S
17-04-2015, 06:32 PM
The way I read the manual the inputs will take up to 30V there is a 1k Resistor in circuit that will limit the current at 24V to 24mA so not a dead short. Dean will no doubt pop along and give you the advise re the Estop and that bob. ..Clive

PAULRO
17-04-2015, 06:54 PM
cheers Clive, i'm just hesistant at this point because of smoke fear!!!!!!!!

JAZZCNC
27-04-2015, 04:30 PM
The way I read the manual the inputs will take up to 30V there is a 1k Resistor in circuit that will limit the current at 24V to 24mA so not a dead short. Dean will no doubt pop along and give you the advise re the Estop and that bob. ..Clive

Hi Paulro Clive brough this to my attention did you get this sorted.? . . . If not what's your fear with releasing magic smoke.?

PAULRO
27-04-2015, 07:44 PM
Hi Jazz, i couldn't visualize the e/stop to the BOB and the e /stop hard wiring combined, as well as that i was reading up on the fault signals from the drives and read a post in a thread concerning dead shorts. i just got the two completely mixed up . i think i have it under control now . i have the wiring nearly finished bar the override and buzzer. i might try and configure Mach3 which i downloaded a trial version of. i 'm not sure if i should power up the drives and then configure Mach 3 or leave the fuses out until i get Mach 3 configured and then power up . Or have i misunderstood the process of powering up? or should i power up 1 drive at a time and configue Mach 3. to be honest i'm at a loss as to my next move now that i have the wiring complete . i have the belts off the motors until i get them to turn. i suppose i'm being too cautious perhaps?

JAZZCNC
27-04-2015, 08:07 PM
Ok well a good bit of caution is wise policy but you have no need to fear mach3 it won't do anything unless commanded too.

First thing to do make sure control box is wired correctly and all drives power up. Check the E-stop knocks the drives out when pressed.

When sure control side is ok then set about setting mach up.

First place to start after installing plug-ins etc for motion control card is in Ports n pins by setting any input pin numbers for Estop etc. Without these set Mach won't come out of reset. If want leave Homes and limits for later but E-stop will most likely need setting.

Next set the pin numbers for each motor in Motor Outputs. Then goto motor tuning and set the Steps per based on your Micro stepping setting and ballscrew pitch. Choose a low velocity and Accelleration for starters. 5000mm/min & 500s/s are good starting point.

You should now be ready to go for testing.

PAULRO
30-04-2015, 09:03 PM
i have the plug in for motion control loaded and the bob powered up with an e/stop signal (n/c) . i have set the pin no. for e/stop in port and pins set to 10 , port 1 but still can't get Mach 3 to reset. i keep getting '' External Estop Triggered'' the hardwiring for the estop is as follows.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15236&stc=1any help would be welcome

PAULRO
30-04-2015, 09:33 PM
i have the plug in loaded and the bob powered up . the e/stop pin set to 10 , port 1 but i cannot reset Mach3 . i get the message'' External E/stop triggered. the e/stop is wired normally closed as per dwgany help would be welcome.

JAZZCNC
30-04-2015, 09:50 PM
Set pin 10 to active low (green tick) then it will work.

PAULRO
30-04-2015, 10:10 PM
cheers Jazz, i watched the first video on the Mach 3 website and got mislead , again!!! the green tick( active low) did the trick o.k. i need to give the tutorials another glance again to see if i can get the motors to turn!!!

JAZZCNC
30-04-2015, 10:25 PM
cheers Jazz, i watched the first video on the Mach 3 website and got mislead , again!!! the green tick( active low) did the trick o.k. i need to give the tutorials another glance again to see if i can get the motors to turn!!!

Well if you have Mach out of E-stop and reset then your half way there. After setting correct motor port & pins then it's a simple case of motor tuning.
Just remember to set the Native units ie Inch or mm before tuning motors otherwise you'll have to re-tune motors. Mach Default is set to Inch.!
(restart mach if you change units)

PAULRO
02-05-2015, 12:48 PM
i'm at a loss at the mo trying to ge these motors to turn. i have autoconfigured them without the signals hooked in and they were fine , i mean they shuddered slightly for a second or so as per manual . i have mach running with the signals hooked in and the motors can turn by hand when the system is powered up .i power down hook out the signals and power up and the motors come on and are held on. i have gone through the motor tuning and set the appropiate ports and pins and still no joy. i have played with the enable settings and still no joy. there must be something i'm missing. i'm running a demo version of Mach and i'm wondering could this be causing me problems?

JAZZCNC
02-05-2015, 03:35 PM
what do you mean by auto configured.? Do you mean using the auto tune on the drives.? If so this won't stop them turning, If wrong or didn't work then all it would do is make motors run rough or stall.

What do you mean by Hook the signals in out.? . . . Need you to be more detailed on what your doing.

Have you wired the Drive enables into your e-stop system or in anyway at all.? . . If so then remove wires for elimination purposes.

It could be the Charge pump output if BOB as Charge pump feature.? You'll find it in OUTPUTS.
Also make sure you have Enabled the Motor output.

Take some screen shots of motor outputs, inputs and output screens so can see how your set.

Better still post up the Mach Xml file of your setup and I'll have a look. you'll find it in mach3 folder using the same name as the profile your using and ending with xml. (Zip it up)

PAULRO
02-05-2015, 04:40 PM
the manual for the drives allows me to auto configure the motors by switching SW4 twice in 1 second but i can only do this if i have the signals for the drives unpluged. when they are unpluged the motors go into a holding state i.e. they are powered.i have the drive enables wired directly to the bob enable inputs, when i disconnect them i can hear the motors humming and they are locked/held. sorry for the delay , i'm using a p.c. with no internet, paint , office , . i have it dedicated for MACH3 so i had to transfer files to my laptop. http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15242&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15243&stc=1

PAULRO
02-05-2015, 04:53 PM
also, my reset will only come out of'' external e/stop triggered''
if i have it set to pin 12, 13 or 15. if i set it to pin 10 or 11 it won't reset.

JAZZCNC
02-05-2015, 06:31 PM
Bit busy at minute but will look properly but will look for you later.
I'm 99% the enable logic state in the drive is different to what the BOB is using. If you can find the enable pins that the BOB is using for enables then change the active state and it should work. Other than that you'll need to do it in the software on the drive. OR just leave them off.!

I'll need to know what pins on the BOB you are using control what on the machine. Ie Relays and there contact state ie NC or NO.

JAZZCNC
02-05-2015, 11:38 PM
Need to know the Dip switch positions on the BOB please.

PAULRO
02-05-2015, 11:51 PM
i left the dip switch positions off on the BOB. to be honest i thought that i would get the basics hooked in .http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15248&stc=1i have an e/stop , a home /limt and xyz home/limit hoooek up normally closed . i thought that these would get me up and running.

PAULRO
02-05-2015, 11:53 PM
i haven't the overide wired up yet , i didn't think that would matter with regards to getting the motors to turn .

PAULRO
03-05-2015, 12:13 AM
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15249&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15250&stc=1

JAZZCNC
03-05-2015, 12:18 AM
Looks like you hadn't set enable output. (enable1) Thats why the motors won't turn because the drive enable is being turned off.

Try this xml.

PAULRO
03-05-2015, 12:31 AM
sorry Jazz , do i just unzip this and put it back into mach 3?

JAZZCNC
03-05-2015, 12:50 AM
sorry Jazz , do i just unzip this and put it back into mach 3?

Yes unzip and replace the original.

PAULRO
03-05-2015, 01:44 PM
well that did the trick o.k Jazz. at least i have the motors turning which was a great milestone to reach. i have to play with it to day to get comfortable with the different noises and speeds . i thought i had a problem with having only 3 inputs available because i couldn't use input 10 or 11 .......... turned out that they only become available for use when the dedicated inputs on the bob are wired in!!! every day is a day for school!! cheers for that last night , by the way.

JAZZCNC
03-05-2015, 02:28 PM
cheers for that last night , by the way.

Erm that sounds dodgy.!!! Lets just be clear for those dirty minded types.!. . . Last night wasn't pyhisical people. . .:joker:

Glad your working now get on with making chips.. .:yahoo:

PAULRO
04-05-2015, 06:02 PM
i had my motors tuned to 2000 steps /per in the motor tuning section and slaved the A axis . the speed and aceleration were also set at a comfortable value, lovely , i thought. i put a dial indicator on the axis and set the code with a G0 X10 but it went at least 50mm.. 60 mm so i set the steps per unit on the settings tab to bring it in to tolerance but that then throws out my ''steps per'' in my motor tuning menu.... obviously the machine travel has to be right , am i missing some setting? the motor tuning ''steps per'' is now at 160 , a far cry from 2000 .

JAZZCNC
04-05-2015, 08:35 PM
i had my motors tuned to 2000 steps /per in the motor tuning section and slaved the A axis . the speed and aceleration were also set at a comfortable value, lovely , i thought. i put a dial indicator on the axis and set the code with a G0 X10 but it went at least 50mm.. 60 mm so i set the steps per unit on the settings tab to bring it in to tolerance but that then throws out my ''steps per'' in my motor tuning menu.... obviously the machine travel has to be right , am i missing some setting? the motor tuning ''steps per'' is now at 160 , a far cry from 2000 .

No I think your misunderstanding how it works. The steps per is how many steps required to move 1 unit. In your case 1 MM.

So you take the Micro stepping amount set in the drive and divide by the pitch of the ballscrew. So if you have 160 in "steps per" and it's moving correct distance then your using 1600 micro steps and the screw pitch is probably 10mm. Or your using 5mm pitch screw and 800MS.?

PAULRO
05-05-2015, 12:13 AM
correct on the 1600 microstep , i misundersood because i got too happy with my self and the setting at 2000 steps/ per. i will surely find the sweet velocity and acceleration values when machining different materials. cheers for that.

JAZZCNC
05-05-2015, 01:49 AM
i will surely find the sweet velocity and acceleration values when machining different materials. cheers for that.

Don't be in a rush to go too fast regards Velocity. Overtuning the motors is very easy and will result in lost steps and positional error if over done.
Also it doesn't always make for faster cycle times depending on type of work your doing.

Keep in mind you can't have both High velocity and high Acceleration.
The best setup is having a nice balance of both for general cutting. ie: Larger work, profiling etc.
Then make your self a separate profile for jobs such as 3D or fine detailed work and tune the motors more biased towards acceleration and lowering velocity. This will shorten your cycle times as often these type of jobs make lots of small moves where they very rarely reach the actual commanded feedrate before having to slowdown again for direction change. Having the acceleration higher and sacrificing velocity allows you to reach a higher feed that is closer to the commanded feed. On some jobs like 3D work and engraving that can have hundreds thousands lines of code this can dramiticly reduce cycle times.

Slowly creep up on the motor tuning rather than try to sprint from the start and only adjust one setting at a time then test by runnign some G-code not just jogging. ie Only adjust velocity or acceleration never both together.

PAULRO
05-05-2015, 11:08 AM
excellent info jazz, i'm still playing with my new toy hoping to get the homing done today at some point. i'm waiting on a pump for my spindle so that gives me a bit of time before i get to that end of things. i hope to fit and wire the spindle today at some point but i see the missus making a list of jobs around the house so i'll have to go missing.

PAULRO
11-05-2015, 02:16 PM
it's time to wire my spindle and inverter so i could do with some guidance. i have read the threads and hope my understanding of what's required is up to scratch. i have the Huanyang HY02D223B VFD and 2.2 KW spindle. i have the VFD wired 220 vac to '' R & T'' on the input side. i have the spindle wired with 4 core 1.5 mm2 with the earth soldered to pin 4. i tried to undo the back cover of the spindle to get an earth to pin 4 on the spindle side of the plug but met with resistance so i read the threads again and realise i will more than likely have to reseal the back flange once disturbed. so i'm thinking,leave well enough alone and maybe i could take a seperate earth from the spindle bracket back to my VFD earth terminal and save myself the hassle of uneccessary resealing.
this then leaves the wiring of the spindle to the inverter. wires 1,2,3, to U,V,W, and earth (as mentioned) .
so my BOB has a PWM input but i want to become more familar with the inverter and the manual input side of things and maybe in a couple of days when i'm up to speed with the VFD then introduce the PWM. this is the slow approach to the set up but i'm waiting on a pump for the spindle so i have the time. so my question is as follows,.. am i better off to power the VFD and set the parameters without the spindle wired in or does it matter?

JAZZCNC
11-05-2015, 03:57 PM
so my question is as follows,.. am i better off to power the VFD and set the parameters without the spindle wired in or does it matter?

Doesn't matter it won't hurt the VFD if spindle isn't attached. I do this all the time.

Don't sweat over the earth on spindle. Just make sure you take the Shield back to the VFD Earth rather than the Cabinet Earth just to ensure you don't create any earth loops. Put an Earth wire from the machine frame to the cabinet Star Earth and you won't have any trouble.

Regards the Water Pump you can have the VFD switch it On/off using the Relay. If the Pump is 24v and doesn't draw to much current(<100ma) then you even use 24V on the VFD so it will power pump. This is how I wire.!

You'll need to set mach spindle output for M3 to which ever relay output you use.

15288

PAULRO
11-05-2015, 05:04 PM
it's a 12 vdc pump , on its way . should have it this week or next . i should have asked here about the pump spec. before i went and bought it . :livid:

PAULRO
11-05-2015, 09:03 PM
can you give the spec. of the pump you use and i'll get it as a back up ?

PAULRO
13-05-2015, 05:55 PM
i still have to incorporate the VFD & spindle into the estop. i can either have the estop drop out the VFD which will drop out the spindle or i'm thinking just have the estop drop out the spindle and leave the VFD powered. i read that it isn't wise to drop out the VFD if the spindle is powered up and running because there is a good chance of damage to the VFD. is there a recommended safe way to achieve this?
thanks once again to Jazz for the VFD control sketch as that was the next item on my list. i wasn't sure which terminals to use on the BOB PWM plug and the dwg cleared it up .

JAZZCNC
13-05-2015, 07:50 PM
Don't what ever you do put anything between the VFD and spindle to break the circuit ie: Contactor or relay. You will damage the VFD and Spindle.

If you want to play on the safe side then put the VFD power on a timer relay and put this in series with the E-stop.
The E-stop signal back to the control will switch off the Spindle in software when it see's E-stop or put the Run signal from vfd thru NO contact on your E-stop relay for safe measure so not relying on software. The Timer relay will allow time for the spindle to coast to a stop before dropping power to the VFD.
This is the safest way.

Personaly I'm ok with Just putting Run signal thru E-stop contact or Relay in series and leaving VFD under power. I Never leave turning off anything to Software.

Regards the Water pump I bought last ones off Ebay and they where about 15. Can't remember seller name, it was China Job but if get chance I'll take a look.

PAULRO
13-05-2015, 10:19 PM
thanks again Jazz. i will organise a delay off timer for that circuit . just to double check a few things with you......
1... the run signal( from VFD) is the ''FOR'' signal from the BOB relay.
2... the PWM connector on the BOB has 3 terminals, +10 v , FIV, GND.
i'm only using the FIV & GND terminal to connect to the VFD.
the +10v terminal remains unconnected?
this side of the build is new to me so i'm being extra cautious !!!!

JAZZCNC
13-05-2015, 11:29 PM
just to double check a few things with you......
1... the run signal( from VFD) is the ''FOR'' signal from the BOB relay.

Yes Take wire from FOR and run thru the BOB relay contacts and back to DCM on VFD.


2... the PWM connector on the BOB has 3 terminals, +10 v , FIV, GND.
i'm only using the FIV & GND terminal to connect to the VFD.
the +10v terminal remains unconnected?
this side of the build is new to me so i'm being extra cautious !!!!

Caution is Wise policy if your not sure.!

The +10v is used to provide the reference voltage if you want to control the speed with a Pot (Potentiometer). You don't need it because the BOB provides the reference voltage. (FIV)

PAULRO
16-05-2015, 10:29 PM
I have noticed that when any of my ,X,Y,Z, limts are triggered MACH responds with a ''PLCM limit reached '' under the reset button . the ''M2 -- LIMIT'' led , flashes briefly in the diagnostic tab under the ''Z'' column and my motors also loose their hold on the axes. when the ''A'' is triggered i get the same result but M4--LIMIT'' flashes in the same column .i 'm at a loss at this stage because i thought that the motors would hold their position and that the leds would stay on. i was about to wire in the overide for the limits and the control for the VFD but i will hold off until i sort this out. if any one can shed some light on this it would be greaty appreciated. i have checked the wiring and the ports and pins settings and everything seems in order. this has me stumped.

JAZZCNC
16-05-2015, 10:51 PM
It's been awhile since I played with PLCM but will probably be the PLCM disableing the motor outputs when it see's a limit trip. Check to see if the plug-in as an option to leave motor outputs enabled.

Not sure what "Z" Column your meaning thou.?

PAULRO
16-05-2015, 11:20 PM
sorry, i mean the 3rd column over from the left in the'' input signal current state''. i'm not too sure about the plug in for the motion controller, the paperwork doesn't mention an option to leave the motors enabled.

Clive S
17-05-2015, 09:57 AM
I have noticed that when any of my ,X,Y,Z, limts are triggered MACH responds with a ''PLCM limit reached '' under the reset button . the ''M2 -- LIMIT'' led , flashes briefly in the diagnostic tab under the ''Z'' column and my motors also loose their hold on the axes. when the ''A'' is triggered i get the same result but M4--LIMIT'' flashes in the same column
I have checked mine this morning ( I also use the PLCM) and indeed it does release the motors when hitting a limit switch when jogging. So you always have to re home. I would of course not hit the limits in normal use because the soft limits are set to just inside the switches. (unless of course the machine was losing steps) ..Clive

PAULRO
17-05-2015, 10:32 AM
thanks for that Clive, at least that's cleared that up for me. is there any chance you could check a few things for me on your controller?

1...does the ''PACKET'' led flash constantly when MACH is reset?

2... the power led is on constantly
3... the connect led is also on constantly
4.. the e/stop led comes on when an e/stop is pressed.

i have 3 inputs wired in to the BOB currently

1 .. e/stop .. N/C
2... A slave N/C
3.. X,Y,Z, in series N/C
The relevant leds are on , on the BOB, my ports and pins are set correctly( they stop the M/C when triggered). but they only trigger briefly on the diagnostic tab. how are yours set up?

JAZZCNC
17-05-2015, 11:02 AM
The relevant leds are on , on the BOB, my ports and pins are set correctly( they stop the M/C when triggered). but they only trigger briefly on the diagnostic tab. how are yours set up?

Don't worry about the Diagnostics Led's. It's working as it should and thats all that matters.
External motion control cards take certain duty's away from Mach3 and do it there way. This is why your motors drop out when limits are pressed. PLCM as taken over the duty's of watching the Inputs and won't be reporting this back to Mach constantly. You may find the PLCM software as some way to identify any active I/O.
Homing is another area that the controller takes over doing so don't be surprised if it doesn't work like Mach3 manual says it should. Mach3 by default assumes your using the parallel port which is completly different kettle of fish.

So long as the machine goes where it's told and behaves it self then don't fret if it does some things different to how Mach normally does it. You'll often find external motion controllers do it better anyway.

PAULRO
17-05-2015, 11:54 AM
that's a relief Jazz , i'm nearly finished with the wiring side of things and then i notice these discrepancies. you hit the nail on the head with that assessment of my last evening. i was trying to get it to behave as per manual / video !!!
i have another query , if you don't mind , i powered up my spindle manually from the VFD yesterday morning and it went well , i'm very happy with it . in fact when i press stop on the Vfd the spindle stops from top speed within 2-3 secs. i have seen clips where it coasts for a decent amount of time before stopping . so once again am i making a wrong comparison?

JAZZCNC
17-05-2015, 01:04 PM
i have another query , if you don't mind , i powered up my spindle manually from the VFD yesterday morning and it went well , i'm very happy with it . in fact when i press stop on the Vfd the spindle stops from top speed within 2-3 secs. i have seen clips where it coasts for a decent amount of time before stopping . so once again am i making a wrong comparison?

This is simply that they have a different deacceleration setting in the VFD. Change the Accelleration and de-acceleration parameter to suit your liking. I think it's PD 14 & 15.
Don't have it stop too quick otherwise it can trip the VFD when using large cutters.

PAULRO
17-05-2015, 01:24 PM
cheers for that Jazz i'll play with it some more , i have the homing set up and tested and all is in order. each axis stops on the money each time. i have the overide with buzzer wired into BOB ( overide X,Y,Z, input) i engaged ''Z'' axis to trip and ''Y'' axis to trip and the overide worked a charm but when i tried the same for ''X'' and slave, the overide has no effect. i have '' HOME SW SAFETY '' unticked and '' and HOME SLAVE WITH MASTER'' unticked. any suggestions?

JAZZCNC
17-05-2015, 01:46 PM
How have you got the limits working.? Are they just stopping the control/Mach3 and not physicly dropping anything out using relays etc.

If so then all you need to do is set Mach option for Auto limit override. Then when limit trips you just reset mach and Jog off the swithc.
You don't need to wire a Switch or use an input to override so not quite sure what your doing here.?

PAULRO
17-05-2015, 02:13 PM
just stopping MACH 3 , no relays involved. where will i find auto lomit overide? spoke too soon , found it! cheers for that

PAULRO
17-05-2015, 02:41 PM
i have the homing set up , i think, but after reading a thread here about auto squaring the gantry i think it still needs tweeking. i think the ''X'' and ''A'' slaved are homing together and backing off together. . i thought that when ''X'' home is triggered it backs off and then ''A'' home sets itself the same way?

JAZZCNC
17-05-2015, 03:25 PM
i have the homing set up , i think, but after reading a thread here about auto squaring the gantry i think it still needs tweeking. i think the ''X'' and ''A'' slaved are homing together and backing off together. . i thought that when ''X'' home is triggered it backs off and then ''A'' home sets itself the same way?

Yes and no.!! They both move together and which ever axis comes across a swithc first it then stops and backs off and the other keeps going and does the same.
When you have the switches set exactly together then it's seemless and you'll struggle to see this happen. If you want to see it happen then move switches further apart. Beware thou it will twist gantry so it's a good idea to remove motors or drive to ballscrews etc to see it happen.

Limit overide is here.
15361

Clive S
17-05-2015, 03:35 PM
Paulro
The relevant leds are on , on the BOB, my ports and pins are set correctly( they stop the M/C when triggered). but they only trigger briefly on the diagnostic tab. how are yours set up?
Mine are working like yours as Dean has said it will work different to the manual.
.
Regarding the homing you can adjust the racking by adjusting one of the homing switches until it is correct. X and A will back off the switches independently, it is hard to see when the gantry is square. But if you want to see it happen remove the belts (if you are using them and the are not direct drive) and put a maker tape on each motor pulley and then home the x axis if you then trip one switch the motor will reverse and stop when you release it. The same will happen to the other side. ..Clive

Some Yorkshire man beat me to it:barbershop_quartet_

JAZZCNC
17-05-2015, 03:42 PM
Some Yorkshire man beat me to it:barbershop_quartet_

Got to get up early to beat a Yorkshire pudding.!!

PAULRO
17-05-2015, 04:27 PM
spot on , CLIVE /JAZZ, i spent a good bit of time initially setting up both switches square so it does look like it's not happening. i must try taking off the belts and using tape as suggested. good one .

PAULRO
19-05-2015, 01:39 PM
i have 2M of 22 awg screened 4 core that i had set aside for the VFD control signals between BOB and VFD, This is the equivalent of 0.3 squared . i just read the VFD manual and it reccommends 0.5 squared . i can't get 0.5 squared locally . i'm about to give the 22 awg a try but would like to know what would the experienced heads use or have used?

Clive S
19-05-2015, 02:07 PM
i have 2M of 22 awg screened 4 core that i had set aside for the VFD control signals between BOB and VFD, This is the equivalent of 0.3 squared . i just read the VFD manual and it reccommends 0.5 squared . i can't get 0.5 squared locally . i'm about to give the 22 awg a try but would like to know what would the experienced heads use or have used?For the control cable this will be fine. ..Clive

PAULRO
19-05-2015, 02:22 PM
cheers Clive, i'll tackle that later.

PAULRO
19-05-2015, 08:12 PM
i'm in a spot of bother with the mach3 spindle control. i have wire the BOBto VFD as follows,i have set up the various ports, pins ,outputs as follows, when i turn on m/c the spindle starts up and i can't turn it off until i do a reset from mach3. i can then go to the output signals tab and turn on active low for output 16 and the spindle will turn on. i can toggle it on and off from this tab. i have tried to set the various related ports and pins, on/off, but i still get no joy. any help would, at this stage be appreciated:jaded::jaded:

PAULRO
19-05-2015, 09:54 PM
well , i have at least got the spindle running and stopping (the correct way)) from the reset button in mach 3. i emailed Gary @ ZAPP and apparently i need to wire in 10 v from the VFD to the BOB. i'll give it a go.

JAZZCNC
19-05-2015, 09:59 PM
Do the relays have NO & NC contacts and you have wired to the NC contact.? This cause spindle to start when Mach is reset because the Enable will activate the outputs and because you have wired to NC the circuit is made straight away.!

PAULRO
19-05-2015, 10:07 PM
i changed that and now it works correctly but the moment i take mach out of reset the spindle starts and i cannot turn it off . the spindle CW F5 button has no effect and i can only turn it off by putting mach into reset. i cannot adjust the speed also ii appears to run at top speed.

JAZZCNC
19-05-2015, 10:08 PM
well , i have at least got the spindle running and stopping (the correct way)) from the reset button in mach 3. i emailed Gary @ ZAPP and apparently i need to wire in 10 v from the VFD to the BOB. i'll give it a go.

No using Reset is not the correct way to start/Stop spindle.

I also think Gary as got this wrong. The 0-10V signal is generated by the BOB you don't need the 10V from VFD.

I'm a little busy at minute but I will look at this for you later.

PAULRO
19-05-2015, 10:10 PM
cheers Jazz.

JAZZCNC
19-05-2015, 11:28 PM
Ok well looking at the manual again then Gary is correct and you do need to supply the Bob with 10V for speed control, which is poor IMO but not a problem.

Regards the Relays I think you may need to change SW1 to Off and work in Enable Mode not Charge pump mode for the Relays to work correctly.
The manual isn't very clear on this but that's what I think it's trying to say.? . . . . Give it a try and see what happens.

The way the Spindle should Start & Stop is with issuing M3 for CW, M4 for CCW and M5 to stop from G-code or MDI. Or with on screen button or F5.

Clive S
19-05-2015, 11:34 PM
I think the service is slipping Dean,:yahoo: expecting people to wait one hour. ..Clive

JAZZCNC
19-05-2015, 11:43 PM
I think the service is slipping Dean,:yahoo: expecting people to wait one hour. ..Clive

It's not my fault Pizza man is slow driver.!!!!

PAULRO
20-05-2015, 12:07 AM
your making me hungry now. time to get a pizza on,if threre's any left. cheers jazz

PAULRO
21-05-2015, 03:11 PM
i 'm having no success with the spinde control from Mach 3 . i think i have all the settings correct . i have looked online for a basic run down of the set up because i'm a complete novice but cannot find a suitable '' VFD to MACH 3 '' for dummies!! if i could at least get my basic understanding of how the various bits communicate and interact i might be in a position to fault find further , so i'm going to list my understanding of how i think it all interacts and hopefully if i am wrong or have left any thing out i can be put straight...........

1 ... change PD001 from 0 to 1... on VFD

SPEED CONTROL
2...connect GND from XP24(PWM on BOB) to ACM GND on VFD
3... connect FIV from XP24( PWM on BOB) to VI on VFD
4... connect +10v from XP24 to +10v on VFD.
the 10 v signal is from VFD to BOB for speed control. (courtesy of Jazz)



START /STOP
5... relay on BOB ( COMMON TERMINAL) to DCM on VFD
6... relay , BOB ( N.O. ) to FOR on VFD




MACH 3 OUTPUTS
i had 3 outputs left from 12 on the XP21 ( LPT PORT) pinout
I used pin 14 for the PWM (output 1) and pin 16 for RELAY 1 ( output 2)

PAULRO
21-05-2015, 03:28 PM
here is my spindle set up

PAULRO
21-05-2015, 03:54 PM
output signals set up ,
ouput 1 = port 1, pin 14 , active high
output 2=port 1 , pin 16 , active high.
( if i toggle the active high to active low on this output, the spindle comes on .:nightmare::disillusionment::subdued:


my motor ouputs tab is a stumbling bolck for me , should i enable the spindle ?
i have it enabled on this tab , step pin 14, i don't know what DIR PIN to use because i have only 1 output pin ( 17) left and that's a relay .

is this my problem . thanks in advance

JAZZCNC
21-05-2015, 04:23 PM
I've just been chastised on the phone by Clive S for letting my level of response drop to a below an acceptable level. . .:thumbdown: . . . . Very sorry.!!:hysterical:

Give me 20 mins and I'll try to make sense of what's happening or not happening and suggest a few things.

Tell me whats happening or not happening as of now.? Does the spindle start/stop when you push spindle CW (F5) button.?

PAULRO
21-05-2015, 04:52 PM
no , the spindle will only start if i tick the active low setting of the start relay ( pin 16) on the output tab. then it starts before i get to apply the changes to that tab ??? if you follow my drift? i have tried an m3 , S2000 , on the MDI TAB and if i toggle the spindle button (F5) The buttons blinks intermittently , but nothing happens, the output signal current state on the Diagonistic tab binks on / off also...

JAZZCNC
21-05-2015, 06:17 PM
Ok think I know whats happening here. You haven't enabled and setup the Spindle output in Motor outputs so the spindle CW F5 isn't turning on or controlling output #14.

So try this first and I think you'll find it turns spindle on/off ok.
Ports & Pins -> Motor Outputs / Spindle: Enabled /Step Pin # (14)/ Step Port # (1)

On the VFD set PD001 =1 This is external source for run command
On the VFD set PD002 = 1 This is external source for Frequency.

If this works then you may need to play with Motor tuning to get the exact speed. Also go to Pulley setup and set minimum and maximum speed.

JAZZCNC
21-05-2015, 06:40 PM
Deleted because changed my mind.!!

PAULRO
21-05-2015, 08:38 PM
the PD002 setting did the trick o.k. i can at least turn the spindle on/off( kind of ) from F5 . i can also increase and decrease the speed but i still need to have the active low setting ''ticked '' for the start / stop output. the spindle still runs on its own albeit at a very reduced speed . i have an LED on board the BOB for the relay outputs and the relay for the ''start /stop '' is constantly on because of the active low tick. It looks like a synchronisation issue between MACH and VFD, i think. ??? if there is such a setting . i also set the spindle pulley tab to ''MIN ZERO'' & ''MAX to 24000'' . there must be some other setting i'm missing. cheers jazz.

JAZZCNC
21-05-2015, 08:53 PM
the PD002 setting did the trick o.k. i can at least turn the spindle on/off( kind of ) from F5 . i can also increase and decrease the speed but i still need to have the active low setting ''ticked '' for the start / stop output. the spindle still runs on its own albeit at a very reduced speed .

Shouldn't do that at all.!! . . . So when you push f5 for off are you saying the spindle keeps running but speed drops.?

JAZZCNC
21-05-2015, 08:58 PM
Post the XML file for the profile your using for Mach3 so I can see how you have Mach setup.
You'll find it in the Mach3 folder with the same name as the profile you use and ending with XML.
Zip it up to post other wise won't allow you to post.

PAULRO
21-05-2015, 10:27 PM
i made a right balls of trying to copy the XML file and deleted it instead. i tried to restore it but having no joy. i will set it up again and get it up a.s.a.p. sorry for the inconvience Jazz

JAZZCNC
21-05-2015, 11:11 PM
i made a right balls of trying to copy the XML file and deleted it instead. i tried to restore it but having no joy. i will set it up again and get it up a.s.a.p. sorry for the inconvience Jazz

Mach keeps a backup for you. Just look in the XML backup folder it will be there.

PAULRO
22-05-2015, 12:35 AM
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15406&stc=1 at last

PAULRO
22-05-2015, 08:04 PM
after pulling the little hair i have left on my head and trying everything i thought would improve my spindle issue i have stumbled accross what i think is my issue and solution. i had a single wire run from +10v (bob) to +10v (vfd). when i made off the control cable initially between BOB and VFD i just used 4 core,2 for the PWM and 2 for START/STOP, all sheilded. because i needed another signal for +10v I ran a single cable temporarily to test and this is where i believe my problems stem from. i unknowingly had the single cable next to a power cable and by chance moved it during the spindle running on its own and the problem dissapeared. Now i know why experienced builders keep the VFD outside the cabinet. i didn't realise how sensitive these signal cables are. once again a big thank you to Jazz for the time given in relation to this. everyday is a day for school .

JAZZCNC
22-05-2015, 09:19 PM
Now i know why experienced builders keep the VFD outside the cabinet. i didn't realise how sensitive these signal cables are. once again a big thank you to Jazz for the time given in relation to this. everyday is a day for school .

Sorry didn't get back to you last night but I was in workshop late and never got time to look until tonight.
I'm relieved you found something because I couldn't see anything wrong with Mach setup and come to the end of what I could suggest.!! . . . Next step was a ferry ride to Limerick.!!

Grounding and silly Wiring issues are probbaly THE most common cause of premature Hair loss.