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michael
16-05-2009, 04:33 PM
I decided to build a flying gantry router, X600 Y300 Z100.

It has 4 x Nema 23 motors 1.86nm holding, 10mm od Ballscrew with 3mm pitch, Fully supported THK linear bearings on all axis. I use the machine with a Trend Router for milling Delrin and Aluminium plate upto 10mm thick.

I also mount a laser I built from a DVD burner diode to etch plastics and organic materials pictured below.
http://www.mickduffin.com/my1.jpg

http://www.mickduffin.com/my2.jpg

Here is an Aluminium Dash board for a boat I cut out of 2mm.
http://www.mickduffin.com/my3.jpg
And here is a baby photo of my son Laser etched into some mahogony with a DVD diode controlled by Mach of course!
http://www.mickduffin.com/image2.jpg

Michael Duffin.

michael
16-05-2009, 04:33 PM
Sorry about Huge photo's!

John S
16-05-2009, 04:53 PM
Yup, just had to nip out and get 5 shillings for the meter so I can download them.

600 x 600 pixels works out fine for forum work, many applications can do resizing. Ifranview is OK and a free download.

Got some questions when I can see them properly.

John S.

michael
16-05-2009, 05:06 PM
Photo's Shrunk :)

Lee Roberts
16-05-2009, 07:22 PM
Nice setup Mike, that Dash board looks sweet !

If you upload pics to the gallery system first, it will resize them for you and also give you the line of code needed to paste them into your posts.

John S
17-05-2009, 12:23 AM
Looks an ugly bastard to me .................:evil:

John S.

Lee Roberts
17-05-2009, 12:43 AM
Nope i also smiled back at him kip, reading this then going back up and looking at his pic also made me smile again...

michael
17-05-2009, 12:16 PM
Looks an ugly bastard to me .................:evil:

John S.

Cheers Pal!!!!
:cry:

Lee Roberts
17-05-2009, 07:39 PM
Looks an ugly bastard to me .................:evil:

John S.

Yea but John if everyone looked like me we wouldn't be able to tell apart the professional machinistís over the aspiring wannabeeís like Kipper, now enough of the flirtatious ramblings, letís see your mug shot, Iím not talking coffee beans ether! :redface:

Tom
17-05-2009, 11:48 PM
That's a nice looking machine Michael...

Which Trend router is that? I've heard people talk about the T4 or T5, but the one on your rig looks different. How do you get on with the noise?

Also, I love the trick with the laser diode - you'll have to teach us all how to do that sometime.... :-)

michael
18-05-2009, 06:01 PM
Think its a T3 or 4 its 500watt I think max collet 8mm, Stupid 42mm collar though so had to turn a 43 > 42mm adapter!!.

At full speed its toooo loud!!! And at lower RPM's looses to much torque.

As for the DVD laser diodes, Yeah cost about £30 aswell so bargain!

I will start a new thread with as much detail as I can offer if there is any one wanting to try it.

Michael.

Tom
18-05-2009, 06:59 PM
Think its a T3 or 4 its 500watt I think max collet 8mm, Stupid 42mm collar though so had to turn a 43 > 42mm adapter!!.

At full speed its toooo loud!!! And at lower RPM's looses to much torque.
.

I don't think they make the 500W Trend any more, but your post set me digging:

Trend T4 (800W)
Sound pressure Lpa 91.1 dB(A)
Sound power Lwa 104.1 dB(A)

Kress 800FME (800W)
Sound pressure Lpa 77 dB (A)
Sound power Lwa 88 dB (A)

I'm not sure which measurement is used to plan for ear defenders (80dB advisory, 85dB compulsory).

The Kress seems about 40% more expensive though based on list price... :thumbdown: I might ask the neighbours if they'd be willing to stump up the difference!! :lol:

michael
18-05-2009, 07:07 PM
Think the difference on mine was more, Paid £30 brand new on ebay, Bet its not much louder than the kress, Hell of a lot cheaper and comes with all collets & extraction connector.

Here's one going cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TREND-T3-550-WATT-1%2F4INS-ROUTER-EX--DEMO--IN-CASE._W0QQitemZ170333003391QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20 090517?IMSfp=TL090517113001r14680

Tom
18-05-2009, 07:23 PM
Here's one going cheap.


OK, £2.70 (so far) certainly counts as cheap!

Maybe I should try the T4 (as a compromise) to see if the low speed torque is any better. Coming with collets is a definite benefit because the Kress ones seem to be £15+ each!

Decisions decisions....

michael
18-05-2009, 07:44 PM
OK, £2.70 (so far) certainly counts as cheap!

Maybe I should try the T4 (as a compromise) to see if the low speed torque is any better. Coming with collets is a definite benefit because the Kress ones seem to be £15+ each!

Decisions decisions....

All of them suffer at their lowest speeds, Again watch out for the crazy trend 42mm collar! Bastards!!!!!!!!

Are you not local to me Tom?

Your welcome to have a look at the T3, Cant knock it other than noise. Seems to cut 10mm ally plate okay!!! :tongue: (1mm step depth with 3mm slot drill at 1000mm per min)

Michael.

John S
18-05-2009, 09:02 PM
OK, £2.70 (so far) certainly counts as cheap!

Maybe I should try the T4 (as a compromise) to see if the low speed torque is any better. Coming with collets is a definite benefit because the Kress ones seem to be £15+ each!

Decisions decisions....

Lester Caine does a decent line in Kress gear.

http://medw.co.uk/wiki/index.php?page=800W+High+Speed+Spindle

Just bought some collets and nuts off him to save changing the collet over in the nut. Well I would have done if I'd collected them at Harrogate and he was on the stand opposite me all show DUH!!

John S.

michael
18-05-2009, 09:07 PM
You do get around John S.

John S
18-05-2009, 10:15 PM
You do get around John S.

Me Grandad had the first ball bearing push bike in Sandiacre, that's why there are so many Stevenson's around.

Actually was at the harrogate show with ARC's KX1 and KX3 mills.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/registered_user/P1000705.jpg

That's Lester's stand just in the front corner.

John s.

michael
18-05-2009, 10:58 PM
Never been to the harrogate show, been to the Mach show at NEC a couple of times. Did you get my email John?

Michael.

HiltonSteve
18-05-2009, 11:57 PM
Just like to say that I went round to see Michael on Sunday afternoon to have a look at his machine, nice bit of kit and a thoroughly nice bloke!

I am currently designing up a machine and without his help and advice I think I would be still scratching my head now trying to figure out what will work and what won't but he is definately pointing me in the right direction.

Thanks again Mike and speak with you tomorrow.

John S
19-05-2009, 12:18 AM
Another creep.............:wave:

Tom
19-05-2009, 12:19 AM
Michael,

Yes we're local - I'm towards Mackworth...
Thanks for the offer - I may just take you up on that... It'd be good to hear the router running! Also, i'd be interested to see how the properly built machines deal with the leadscrew thrust. There seem to be various options and a look at your machine and a chat would be gold-dust. I'll PM you, maybe meet up sometime after the bank holiday if that's convenient...

Cheers for the kress link John. One part of me is saying you don't get something for nothing, and another is saying OUCH! :)

Trend T4 is £70 incl collets
Kress 800FM is £126 + £26 for a couple of collets

John S
19-05-2009, 12:32 AM
Tom,
I have never used a Trend so I don't known what they are like but I had a Kress 800w on my router up until last week. The thumbwheel on the Kress is marked 1 to 6 1 being about 10,000 and 6 being 30 odd thou.

If you keep to just over 2, probably about 12,000 or so they are quiet, enough so you can work at the side of them.
Flat out you have to walk away.

I try to run at 2 or thereabouts and it works for me.

Just got a new air cooled Chinese spindle, 24,000 rpm max.
at 12,000 it's quieter than the Kress but at 24,000 that still chucks a bit of noise out but nowhere near as much.
The noise isn't a motor noise but fan noise, I'd like to get hold of one of the small water cooled spindles and se how they perform with no fan.


John S.

michael
19-05-2009, 12:35 AM
Your welcome Tom,

Not sure as my machine is properly built... Its better than something made out of old drawers and bits of old pine! but its not perfect, however i can advise you on what not to do no problem.

Seriously, i build large CNC machines (up to 6m x 30m, yes meters) for a living so i'm sure I can point you in the correct direction mate.

Thanks Hilton steve for your comments, you seem a nice bloke your self!


Michael

John S
19-05-2009, 12:45 AM
Michael,
How do they drive the 30 meter axis ?
The reason I ask is I was involved with largish laser some years ago, 3 meter x 2 meter 3Kw up to 5Kw.

When they moved onto higher speed lasers, Bystronic's , the dropped the ball screws in favour of precision rack and pinion because the screws whipped at speed.
The rack and pinion was still able to guarantee 0.02mm on position.

John s.

Lee Roberts
19-05-2009, 01:25 AM
Hey John, will you keep us posted with the events as they become available? You could even post them into the site calendar if you would be kind enough to?

If I was to get some flyer's printed up would you be willing to hand them out when you’re at the shows to help bring the members in for the site ? I was thinking flyers or maybe business card size that you could bundle with your other bumf?

Lee Roberts
19-05-2009, 01:32 AM
Hey Tom, check this post out: Link Just like the T3/4 only £20 each if you look around.

michael
19-05-2009, 06:08 PM
Michael,
How do they drive the 30 meter axis ?
The reason I ask is I was involved with largish laser some years ago, 3 meter x 2 meter 3Kw up to 5Kw.

When they moved onto higher speed lasers, Bystronic's , the dropped the ball screws in favour of precision rack and pinion because the screws whipped at speed.
The rack and pinion was still able to guarantee 0.02mm on position.

John s.

Rack and Pinion by Gudel John, Pretty much the only option for axis of that length (and mass). Also easy to extend as the ganrty runs on huge precision rails fastened to the floor.

Michael.

Tom
19-05-2009, 06:52 PM
something made out of old drawers and bits of old pine!

You've seen my build thread then! ;)

Lee and John, thanks for the info - i'm going to Michael's later in the week to hear what a trend sounds like. I'm going to make my decision based on that. I've got my grandad's words running through my head - buy on price, buy twice. Could get expensive... :eek:

John S
19-05-2009, 07:09 PM
If you want to then pop round to see what a Kress sounds like you are welcome to pop in.

John S.

michael
19-05-2009, 07:09 PM
You've seen my build thread then! ;)

Lee and John, thanks for the info - i'm going to Michael's later in the week to hear what a trend sounds like. I'm going to make my decision based on that. I've got my grandad's words running through my head - buy on price, buy twice. Could get expensive... :eek:

Yeah i have seen your thread, Sometimes I should think before i type :redface:.
seriously I was impressed with your build so far.

Michael.

michael
19-05-2009, 11:23 PM
Kip "Seriously" I always smile and I say that with a serious amount of seriousness.

John S
19-05-2009, 11:26 PM
Is that a nice smile or the scowl in the picture ?

John S.

Lee Roberts
20-05-2009, 01:49 AM
Kip "Seriously" I always smile and I say that with a serious amount of seriousness.

So are you serious then? Or are you unsure about how serious you are when youíre showing seriousness about something that really is quite serious?

Yours semiseriously,
Lee

michael
20-05-2009, 02:50 PM
Is that a nice smile or the scowl in the picture ?

John S.

Usually Wind John S, Did you get my email???????

Michael.

michael
30-05-2009, 07:37 PM
Gonna build a new machine! Any suggestions on how I could improve on my existing machine would be appreciated.

Similar flying bridge design but with single (larger) ballscrew for X axis and THK fully supported rail on all axis.


Michael.

michael
30-05-2009, 07:40 PM
Another creep.............:wave:

Creeping isn't such a bad thing John, It worked for me!! Thanks again for the bit you made!!!

lateAtNight
30-05-2009, 08:25 PM
I'm interested in this whole business with the laser. I had no idea DVD diodes were powerful enough to do anything... other than read dvds... and make home made laser pointers.

Do you think you could post a little info on how you did it?

Cheers,
Dave.

michael
30-05-2009, 08:59 PM
Well what do you want to know about DVD laser burning?

You could just buy a 300mw DVD diode in a 12x30 mm housing with lens and driver board off Ebay for about £30, Seller I think is in South Korea but had a good track record with UK customers.

I made a mount to hold the diode where my spindle would usually go, The driver board I used needed a 6v Regulated supply so I just gave it 6v via a regulator switched via a Solid state relay driven directly by the parallel port.

I then wrote a simple script that swapped out Z moves in the G Code created by Cad software for M codes to turn laser on and off, The etching of a baby on some wood was done with a 180mw 635nm DVD laser diode.

Focusing the laser takes a little trial and error, But I got a spot size down to 0.07mm, Even 180mw at a spot size that small is a fair amount of energy.

Please feel free to ask me any questions as I know I ramble and talk shit sometimes.:whistle:

Michael.

lateAtNight
31-05-2009, 11:14 AM
Please continue to talk shit...I'm hooked ;)

I second that :)

Lee Roberts
31-05-2009, 11:57 PM
You'v got 48 hours to comply Michael, i'v got a DVD Burner and i know how to use it, its your choice !

John S
01-06-2009, 12:32 AM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/BC7EEF32d01%201.jpg

michael
01-06-2009, 12:46 PM
As I don't wish to teach people how to suck eggs please ask a specific question!!!!!
There are loads of tutorials on the net for building a laser pointer with a DVD diode, thats the hard bit!!

Cheers!

Michael.

John S
01-06-2009, 01:29 PM
Right,

What power?
Where do you buy them?
What to use for a power supply?
How do you focus it?
What will it cut / engrave given the power?

When are you coming to fit it and wire it up for me ?

Is that enough to work with ?:heehee:

John S
01-06-2009, 02:45 PM
If I turn my telescope to the sun....couple mirrors.......Ahhhhhhhhhhhh


Now that's cool... tracking ants by CNC

BillTodd
01-06-2009, 02:59 PM
How do you focus it?

Could you use the DVD mechanism's focus servo ? (i.e. it already has a beam splitter and monitor diodes)

michael
01-06-2009, 02:59 PM
Right,

What power?
Where do you buy them?
What to use for a power supply?
How do you focus it?
What will it cut / engrave given the power?

When are you coming to fit it and wire it up for me ?

Is that enough to work with ?:heehee:

Okay.......
Power - The one I used was 180mw 635nm (visable red)
Where to get/PSU & focusing all here http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/300mW-650nm-Red-High-Power-burn-Laser-Diode-Module-Kit_W0QQitemZ270396915511QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item3ef4e97f37&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1307%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

http://www.mickduffin.com/laserkit.jpg

This includes everything you need, really easy. Comes with lens & body which is 12mm od so you'll need to fashion a clamp for that. The lens supplied is plastic however so was the one I used.

To drive it, simply give it 6 - 20v when you want it to fire. I would reccomend either a transistor or solid state relay to turn it off / on as switching speeds could get to high for a mechanical relay.

Focusing is easily adjusted by rotating the lens at the end of the unit.

At 180mw - 300mw you will only be cutting foams up to a few mm's and vinyl / stickey back plastic.

for engraving, Pretty much anything organic eg; leather, Wood etc. Also most plastics but results will vary depending on the colour of the material, A red laser will hardly leave a witness mark on red plastic and would struggle to set fire to bright white paper. However if was a slightly darker colour paper would ignite almost instantly.

John S. When ever you like mate!!!!:beer:
http://www.mickduffin.com/image2.jpg
Michael Duffin.

michael
01-06-2009, 03:05 PM
Nice one :beer: What shape is the lens?

Round? is that a trick question:joker:

michael
01-06-2009, 03:16 PM
Lunatic...ahem concave convex dioptic bifocal......I meant :D

They are collimator lens's, Will try and get a pic of one, Shape is Aspheric. The glass ones use 3 different lens's one of which is AR coated.

Michael

michael
01-06-2009, 03:25 PM
Could you use the DVD mechanism's focus servo ? (i.e. it already has a beam splitter and monitor diodes)

Not sure to be honest, Don't think the DVD burner runs the diodes that high (so little heatsink may not be good enough, though possible on a lightscribe?

There also designed to be a couple of mill off the surface which could presesnt quite a problem.

Once your diodes in your Z axis and focused to produce the smallest spot size at 50% z axis travel, you can then jog your Z up and down to focus.

The beam created with those Axiz 12 x 30mm lens looks like an hour glass, At the point where the two sides of this hour glass cross is where your material surface should be.

Like........
http://www.epiloglaser.com/images/lens.gif
Ignore the steering mirror.

Michael.

korky
02-06-2009, 11:43 AM
Michael, that's fantastic information. Many many thanks.

I'm now going to ask loads of really obscure questions that are difficult to answer definitively... :smile:

Does the laser always leave a black mark, or does that depend on the material?
Is the colour of the material important? Is it generally only dark colours that are marked?
Can you burn lines with the laser? Your baby image - which is really impressive - looks as if it was created with a series of dots. Was that just the way the image was converted to gcode?

If it can draw lines, how fast? 5mm per minute? 100?

Okay, enough going around the houses. This is what I'm thinking about:
I use my machine to drill and cut some simple PCBs for my brother - glass fibre 'FR4' board. Seeing as the sheets are mounted on the machine already, I'm thinking that a laser might be able to label the boards and save an awkward screen-printing stage.

Do you think it's worth a punt?
Or is the laser quite picky about the material it will mark?
(I'm tight as nuts, and although these kits are only about £30 at the moment, every hobby penny counts!)

Cheers,
Keith.

michael
02-06-2009, 06:43 PM
Michael, that's fantastic information. Many many thanks.

I'm now going to ask loads of really obscure questions that are difficult to answer definitively... :smile:

Does the laser always leave a black mark, or does that depend on the material?
Is the colour of the material important? Is it generally only dark colours that are marked?
Can you burn lines with the laser? Your baby image - which is really impressive - looks as if it was created with a series of dots. Was that just the way the image was converted to gcode?

If it can draw lines, how fast? 5mm per minute? 100?

Okay, enough going around the houses. This is what I'm thinking about:
I use my machine to drill and cut some simple PCBs for my brother - glass fibre 'FR4' board. Seeing as the sheets are mounted on the machine already, I'm thinking that a laser might be able to label the boards and save an awkward screen-printing stage.

Do you think it's worth a punt?
Or is the laser quite picky about the material it will mark?
(I'm tight as nuts, and although these kits are only about £30 at the moment, every hobby penny counts!)

Cheers,
Keith.

okay.............
The laser leaves a burnt mark, Darker usually dark brown or black depending on material.

Colour makes all the difference. Eg; That bit of wood was actually lighter than it looks in the photo It burnt well, The red plastic handle of my screwdriver is not effected by the laser at all.

Can it do lines???
Well it can do anything your machine can, If you want to raster engrave this is how its done. You cant adjust the laser power as it wont have enough power at less than 180mw or so. So you make the image out of a series of dots spaced closer for darker and further for lighter.

In a paint package convert a photo to 1 bit black and white using error diffusion and you'll see what I mean.

If your engraving is vector based then use any cad software to create your g-code, I then wrote a script to swap Z- moves for "laser on" and Z+ moves for "laser off" (if that makes sense?)

Mach has a setting for 2.5d Z axis which turns an output on when Z is down and so on, This may work I have not tried it for other reasons.

Will it mark glass fibre 'FR4' board?

No it will not unless you apply something else to the board first, there is a spray called CerMark which does work with DVD diodes (though they claim nothing below 10 watts) but maybe not on glass fibre board, I once got a guy to paint his copper clad board with matt black spray paint and then used the laser to remove the paint (same as routing isolation) to develop PCB's.

Michael Duffin.

HiltonSteve
02-06-2009, 06:46 PM
Michael,

On another note altogether I have taken a leaf out of your book and put a picture of myself on my avatar...

Its good to put a face to a name.

Speak to you later.

Steve.

michael
02-06-2009, 06:51 PM
Michael,

On another note altogether I have taken a leaf out of your book and put a picture of myself on my avatar...

Its good to put a face to a name.

Speak to you later.

Steve.

Didn't know you smoked :beer: