hiwin rail question

[dazza]

Is this a good price for this stuff in the link I will be needing 4 blocks ,two rail maybe not as much as 500mm but there seems to be lots of Chinese listings for the stuff.
I thought it was made else where like korea or...ta.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIWIN-EGW20CA-Rail-Slide-Unit-Blocks-Fit-EGR20C-Linear-Guideway-/281227010633
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-HIWIN-Brand-Linear-Guide-HGR20R500mm-rail-2pcs-HGW20-CA-Flange-Blocks-/281066823731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4170e36033

[IanS1]

I've just bought HIWIN rails/blocks from a UK supplier.

HGW blocks - £32.58 each
480mm Rail - £40.61 each

So that works out to about £105.77 including VAT for pretty much the same thing.

There's a good chance you will have to pay 20% VAT on the imported ones. Some of these Chinese listings are really pushing there luck on some adverts, don't always assume they will be way cheaper than you can buy from a UK supplier.

[JAZZCNC]

Check Zapp site out Gary had some cheap rails on special offer.

[GEOFFREY]

Check Zapp site out Gary had some cheap rails on special offer.

n
Not cheap rails Jazz - good rails at special clearance prices!!! (being pedantic again). G.

[Jonathan]

The best prices on new rails are generally found at Aliexpress. I'd just write an e-mail asking for exactly what you need and send it to lots of sellers on the site. Aliexpress had profile rails long before eBay - I got some from there back in 2012.

[dazza]

thanks all.
I don't assume ian,i will eventually need 12 blocks and 6 rails, length for the x and y to be decided on once I find a suitable replacement milling table, what ive found so far compared to what you paid I will have made a saving getting on for 200 notes.+-
I was just dubious about quality/getting them from china with them being kings of snide.

[dezaud]

Hi,

Another forum post made me aware of a cheap european source for hiwin, CNC-store.it / CNC-store.eu, just completed a small order to check both the quality of the components and the realiability of the store as there were only a few mentions of it online. I'll report back when (hopefully) I receive the goods. Anyone else have experience with the shop?

The prices are slightly higher than what you would find on aliexpress, but the components are all of the slightly more accurate variety and the wagons come preloaded.

[Lee Roberts]

Dezaud this is a new one to me, look forward to reading about your findings, thanks for sharing.

.Me

[Boyan Silyavski]

For a small machine that maybe the case, but for 8x4' ali express os unbeatable by a long run. See for yourself when you add the price of balls crew machining. Cause I buy then together to save on shipping.
3 times cheaper after shipping and duty!!!

[ba99297]

A friend of mine is woodcutting machine constructor
He has an italian supplyer
He ask an offer for the rails that i want for my machine
Finally i bought from him.Total 772 euros ( 672 euros +100 euros shipping ). No Vat as the products come from a country of EU.
This is the answer of the suppplyer.
----------------------------------------------------
1) 2 Linear shafts diam. 20 mm. Length 1840 mm.
HGR 20 R 01840 H: 92 Euro/piece

2) 2 Linear shafts diam. 20 mm. Length 1120 mm.
HGR 20 R 01120 H: 56,28 Euro/piece

3) 2 Linear shafts diam.20 mm. Length 400 mm.
HGR 20 R 00 400 H: 20,14 Euro/piece

4) 12 pieces linear bearings HIWIN diam 20 mm.
HGH20 CA Z0H: 27,28 Euro/piece
----------------------------------------------------

[vargai]

Hi BA
How can I call you?

Thank you very much for your response-it is very useful.
Pls read my introduction and give reply if you have any comment.
Anyway I am planning to buy TBI motion rail and ball screw for my machine her in Hungary.
I have 20 % discount of the list price
Flanged high carrige TRFH25 -28 GBP
rail TR25 -46 GBP
Ball screw 20x10 T5 -34 GBP

Have you got any experience ?


(my hand was faster then my mind)

Thanks
István

[ba99297]

Istvan hi
You can call me Vagelis ( this is my name)
Sorry that i cant help you as i dont have any experience in profiled rails and carriages.
The rails that i mentioned in my first post are the only one that i have ever bought
So no experience at all ( other than the price and the dimensions of the rails that i have bought
I havent even use them in my machine

Wish you good luck

Vagelis

[JAZZCNC]

Anyway I am planning to buy TBI motion rail and ball screw for my machine her in Hungary.
I have 20 % discount of the list price
Flanged high carrige TRFH25 -28 GBP
rail TR25 -46 GBP
Ball screw 20x10 T5 -34 GBP

Have you got any experience ?

Hi Istvan,

Those prices seem a little high compared to what you would pay from China. Chai at linearmotionbearings sells PDF brand linear rails which are IMO slightly better quality than TBI for much less. The Flanged bearings cost approx $20usd, Slim type $19usd and the rails approx $39usd/per mtr.

Only up side with buying these rails for you is they are in your country. With Linear rails this doesn't really mean much has they are such simple components that the only trouble you could have is to loose balls or damage the plastic ball holders while fitting. In practise this doesn't happen often unless your very heavy handed. (Bearings will arrive on the rails from Chai so this is not a problem.)

[vargai]

Hi Jazz,

This price includes 27%! VAT thanks to our lovely gov. that hopefully can get back since I run a recently sleeping
business next to my daily job. And the other thanks -since 2012 one has to pay VAT +10% tax after goods from non-EU countries. Additionally I am wonder of the cost of the transport( I assume about 50 kg pack including all the stuff). What about this at Chai?
Note this rail is 25 mm so can compare to Hiwin20 price
If it is just slight different in quality (good to hear) I would remain at TBI

[JAZZCNC]

Additionally I am wonder of the cost of the transport( I assume about 50 kg pack including all the stuff). What about this at Chai?
Note this rail is 25 mm so can compare to Hiwin20 price
If it is just slight different in quality (good to hear) I would remain at TBI

Just send him an email with what you want and he will give you a quote including shipping.

[vargai]

Hi Vagelis

In the meantime I looked at your photos of your frame- i think it is nice and strong.
I would go with 80x80x4 or where the rails are 80x80x8 but i want to use only one size of profile.
2014.11.16. It is the day when I started the planning of the machine.
The Z axis is the easiest as Jazz suggested to you- I also going to put the carriages to the fix plate.
For the X axis frame I try to plan a strong frame in frame solution against torsion.
C would be ideal for placing, fixing all- will see later. I do not want to mix the profile and the final design should be aesthetic too. Not for comment yet, just sign

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13858&stc=1

[dezaud]

Sorry it took me this long to report back on the cheap-ish european source for Hiwin rails, cnc-store.eu, but everything worked out great. Delivery and processing was really fast and communication straight forward. I started out ordering two 50cm HGR15H rails and the first two of four HGH15 wagons to fit my massively oversized Z axis ball screw, upon arrival their size chocked me, tiny little things. So for my main order, the x and y axis, I went with HGR25H rails and HGW25 wagons and now having just recieved those I am again chocked, this time in reverse :) They are massive with a build quality that for my limited use should last very close to forever.

All of the wagons come preloaded and do indeed require a bit of force to move, now I just hope I'll be able to build the machine with the accuracy in alignment that they will require...

Included are two pictures, the packaging itself deserved to one of those as it was very impressive. Heavy cardboard stapled to a wooden board to resist beding in transit. Very nice job!http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14117&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14118&stc=1

[EddyCurrent]

Too late now but I think you should have got 20's all round. The 15's are a problem to get grease into but if you find a good solution please let us konw.

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7273-Greasing-Hiwin-HG15?highlight=hg15

[dezaud]

I agree, 20's would probably have been a better fit for a 150x150 machine, thanks for letting me know about the greasing issue.

Have you noticed any considerable wear in on your hiwin setup, things sliding easier I mean?

[EddyCurrent]

@dezaud,
You might find these threads worth reading.
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4862-Profiled-rails-Installation-guidelines-and-manufacturer-comparison-chart?highlight=hiwin+lubrication
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7706-Hiwin-guide-rail-bearing-block-HGH20CA-installation-help?highlight=hiwin

[JAZZCNC]

Have you noticed any considerable wear in on your hiwin setup, things sliding easier I mean?

Don't worry about the preload it won't be a problem. By hand they feel stiff but to get a better idea of how they will really feel then put a rail on a level floor and put slight pressure on with your foot and you'll see they slide easily. Be careful not to put too much force or they will shoot off with you.!!. . .Lol

In use they do free up a little but not massive amount and you don't want them to really. If aliagned and looked after correctly they will last for many many years giving hassle free usage.

[charlieuk]

Too late now but I think you should have got 20's all round. The 15's are a problem to get grease into but if you find a good solution please let us konw.

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7273-Greasing-Hiwin-HG15?highlight=hg15

I set out today to try and solve the grease problem on the hg15 and I think I may have done it with a little m4 nipple some silicone tube and a syringe to inject the grease which I plan on warming up first so it's a little more liquid. I will report back tomorrow when I give it a go.

[EddyCurrent]

I set out today to try and solve the grease problem on the hg15

Good man ! I can't wait to hear the results.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Too late now but I think you should have got 20's all round. The 15's are a problem to get grease into but if you find a good solution please let us konw.

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7273-Greasing-Hiwin-HG15?highlight=hg15

Through the rail. Drill the rail and set up so, that when the carriage is over grease goes in through the rail hole.

[EddyCurrent]

Through the rail. Drill the rail and set up so, that when the carriage is over grease goes in through the rail hole.

I don't fully get what you are saying. It's not so much access, although there is little clearance between the nipple and the base, it's because of the non standard nipple design and finding the right end for a grease gun.

[charlieuk]

The principal works with the nipples only thing I'm struggling with is that the grease is quite thick and very hard to pump in with a syringe. Is there a thinner type of grease I could use or something I could mix it with even if I have to do it more often. ? At the moment I'm just trying high performance lithium bearing grease class2

[JAZZCNC]

I set out today to try and solve the grease problem on the hg15 and I think I may have done it with a little m4 nipple some silicone tube and a syringe to inject the grease which I plan on warming up first so it's a little more liquid. I will report back tomorrow when I give it a go.


I use this method all the time on hard to reach areas, even with 6mm nipples. Don't mess around with a syringe buy a small grease gun. Then put standard 6mm nipple on one end of pipe with threads inside the pipe and 4mm nipple on other end with nipple inside the pipe so can screw into bearing.

Then just connect 6mm to grease gun as normal. You'll need to wire the pipe to the nipples else the pressure blows them off.

[mekanik]

Eddy
Think what siliavski means is drill the end of the rail along its length offset so you don't intercept a securing bolt drilling, then drill down from the top of the rail to intercept the hole, drill & tap the end drilling for a nipple, so home all axis and grease six nipples, never seen the 15mm rails up close but you might be able to get a 3mm hole in it & that should be more than adequate for wheel bearing grease.
Regards
Mike

[EddyCurrent]

Eddy
Think what siliavski means is drill the end of the rail along its length offset so you don't intercept a securing bolt drilling, then drill down from the top of the rail to intercept the hole, drill & tap the end drilling for a nipple, so home all axis and grease six nipples, never seen the 15mm rails up close but you might be able to get a 3mm hole in it & that should be more than adequate for wheel bearing grease.
Regards
Mike
Thanks Mike (and silyavski) I understand that now and it sounds like a good idea. Both ends of the rails would need to be drilled.
The important thing is where to drill the exit hole in the rail, need to study some diagrams or remove a bearing to see what's best, maybe it needs more than one hole in order to reach all the races ?

[EddyCurrent]

. . . the grease is quite thick and very hard to pump in with a syringe.

You'll need to wire the pipe to the nipples else the pressure blows them off.

There does seem to be lot of resistance, I think the rail drilling idea might be the way to go.

[mekanik]

Eddy
You could connect the bearing blocks with a piece of pipe so you charge both of them @ the same time so no need to drill both ends of the rail
regards
Mike

[Neale]

Aren't these rails hardened and ground? Can you drill (and especially tap) them?

[mekanik]

I would have thought so but Boyan seems to have managed it, perhaps he could comment.

[Neale]

I believe that you can cut threads with a spark eroder, but that seems a bit OTT...

[njhussey]

I was looking at this yesterday. I'm going to buy some 6mm brass/copper grease pipe and some male stud couplings, elbows and tees and make it so there is just one greasing point per axis. I was thinking of doing it so that when the home command was given the axis all returned to the home position where the Z connected to the Y axis grease system and the Y axis connected to the X axis system so that there was just one point to lubricate...

[Boyan Silyavski]

Hiwin Lubrication Manual (http://www.intercom.si/web/dokumenti/HIWIN_LI_EN_V1_1.pdf), so you know the proper quantities and other stuff.


Yes, that's what i meant. Drill the rail and inject grease through the rail.

Now in the manual 4.5 they say there is a thing called "Self-lubricating kit ‚E2’ "

[JAZZCNC]

Hiwin Lubrication Manual (http://www.intercom.si/web/dokumenti/HIWIN_LI_EN_V1_1.pdf), so you know the proper quantities and other stuff.


Yes, that's what i meant. Drill the rail and inject grease through the rail.



Now in the manual 4.5 they say there is a thing called "Self-lubricating kit ‚E2’ "

Drilling the rail isn't going to help very much, you may as well just grease the rails for what good it will do. This method will only smear grease on the outer surface of the balls and the rest will come out the ends past the seals, only a very small percentage will get to where it matters. You want grease or lube on the inside of the bearings so it flows thru the circuits and end caps.
Yes it's better than nothing but the pipe and tube method is easy enough and you know the grease is getting exactly where it's needed.

Personally I'd fit a timer lubrication pump and pump oil thru the bearings. Timer pumps from china are relatively cheap now and they can be programmed to pump at regular intervals so you know the bearings are getting lubed and flag up or E-stop the machine if low on oil etc.

[Jonathan]

I don't really see what all the fuss is about, it's just a few tubes and simple parts to make on a lathe? I guess if you've not got a lathe then that doesn't help matters.

In my build log all the bearings and ballnuts are connected with tubes look towards the end of the of the first post in the thread:

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6484-A-sufficiently-strong-machine?p=48616#post48616

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9850&d=1377723771

The Y-axis rails are the same size as yours.

[Neale]

Jonathan - am I correct in thinking that all the oil pipes go direct to the sliding carriages/ball nuts? Presumably you also had to be careful about routing pipes and allowing enough slack for movement.

And for anyone who does not want or does not have the facilities to make the components, Arc Euro Trade (and probably plenty of other places) sell all the bits. I have a central lubrication system on my vertical mill, and it does mean that the slideways get lubricated much more often than when I had to do it all manually. It's a thought...

[EddyCurrent]

I don't really see what all the fuss is about, it's just a few tubes and simple parts to make on a lathe?

That's fine if you use oil, but I'm on about grease. Tell me this though, does the oil drip about all over the place ? it's okay for you people who cut metal but I'm cutting wood and the last thing I want is oil contaminated wood, that's why I use grease.

[Jonathan]

Jonathan - am I correct in thinking that all the oil pipes go direct to the sliding carriages/ball nuts? Presumably you also had to be careful about routing pipes and allowing enough slack for movement.

Yes and yes, but slack for movement doesn't present much of a challenge as the only pipes that move are the two connected to the gantry, which can be routed with the Y and Z axis motors. The challenge is when you have rotating nuts...


That's fine if you use oil, but I'm on about grease. Tell me this though, does the oil drip about all over the place ? it's okay for you people who cut metal but I'm cutting wood and the last thing I want is oil contaminated wood, that's why I use grease.

If you put plenty of oil in then yes, it goes everywhere. Perhaps it could be managed with more careful control of the quantity.

[EddyCurrent]

Now in the manual 4.5 they say there is a thing called "Self-lubricating kit ‚E2’ "

http://www.hiwin.com/pdf/lg/linear_guideways_e2.pdf

Looks okay, uses oil, but I don't understand why these and other accessories, Hiwin especially, are so difficult to source and purchase. it's always like finding rocking horse cac.

In the same document is Hiwin - Intelligent Linear Guideway, looks like it might have potential to be used for position feedback similar to an encoder.

[JAZZCNC]

That's fine if you use oil, but I'm on about grease. Tell me this though, does the oil drip about all over the place ? it's okay for you people who cut metal but I'm cutting wood and the last thing I want is oil contaminated wood, that's why I use grease.

If you over fill with grease it comes out and the same is true with oil. The trick is to regulate the flow or pulse small quirts at regular intervals so just enough to coat the bearings with fine smear on rails. It's not difficult really.
My mill as got programmable lube system which can pulse the pump and it just oils the bearings and ways nicely with very little to no excess, certainly not enough to contaminate anything.
You can buy these cheap enough now and they even do ones which will pump grease.

Same thing could easily be made with an arduino cycling a pump.

[Ger21]

That's fine if you use oil, but I'm on about grease. Tell me this though, does the oil drip about all over the place ? it's okay for you people who cut metal but I'm cutting wood and the last thing I want is oil contaminated wood, that's why I use grease.

You can do a central lube system and still use grease. Our Morbidelli has one.