Holding vice to table advice

[lateAtNight]

Hey everyone,
I need some advice on how to clamp my vice to my milling table.

I bought a "Precision Tool Vice Type 2" from Arc Euro Trade for my little milling machine and eventually got a clamping kit to go with. Links for vice (http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices) and clamps (http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Clamping-Sets) (24 pc kit). Sadly the hold down clamps they sell are for the smaller vices.

My first thought that was I should use the clamping bars to fit in-between the grooves that run up the side of the vice but when the clapping kit arrived I realised the clamping bars that come with the kit are too fat to fit in the groves. I phoned Arc to ask and they said to just use the bolts and t nuts to hold the vice to the table.

Its take me a while to find some free time to have a look, but as I suspected this is completely impractical... the bolts are also too fat to fit in the groves properly and to get them to make any sort of contact they need to go in at an angle. When I try to tighten them they just slip right off the vice. Maybe I misunderstood them and if so does anyone have any suggestions on how to actually hold this vice down? I wonder why this vice does't have a break in the groves so that the bolt can pass through and then bolt down that way... every other vice does!

Picture attached at my attempt to do what Arc was saying... Any help much appreciated.

David.

[Dean jeffery]

Deff don't clamp the way you are, not practical has you no.
Can you mill your own slots in the vise, make your own clamps out of some plate and machine to suit the vice. Or mill the kit you bought to fit the vice, prob only need a few mm machining of the top to fit in the vices slot.

[lateAtNight]

Thanks for the reply man.
Thought about milling my own slots on the vice, but I would expect its hardened tool steel... wouldn't want to cut that on my tiny mill. Might ask a local company to shave off a few mill off the clamping kit if it comes to it. Emailed Arc to see what they say.

[Dean jeffery]

Small light cuts should be fine, what mill is it.

[lateAtNight]

Sieg KX1. Yet to cut anything on it despite having it for well over a month! Will post up my thoughts once I've used it a little.

[njhussey]

How wide are the slots? I've got some small 6mm or 10 mm thick (cant remember which) home made clamping bars I've made. What's the bolt diameter too?

[mekanik]

OK
What you need is some substantial flat bar (4 off) say 25mm wide and about 10mm thick and about 50mm long,
if the slot in your vice is less than 10mm wide you will need to machine the end of the bar so it will fully engage in the slot. you now need a hole in the bars for your "T" studs, say 20mm from the end of the bar that locates in the vice slot.
You can now either add packing a tad higher than the hieght of the vice slot from the table, and with a nut on your "T" stud just tighten, you could also drill and tap the other end of the bars 10mm and jack it that way but don't forget packing on you milling table.
Regards
Mike

[lateAtNight]

How wide are the slots? I've got some small 6mm or 10 mm thick (cant remember which) home made clamping bars I've made. What's the bolt diameter too?

10mm between the lips. Bolts are M6.

Did a bit of googling to see if I could buy some appropriate clamps but came across this (http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Accessories/Vises/Vise1.jpg) - looks like a easily hackable solution with a few bits of plate I have lying around until I can make something more like this (http://www.wsukes.com/temp/vise_clamp%20001.jpg).

Also, just a note for anyone thinking of getting one of these vices... I've read a few people saying to put a bit of paper underneath before clamping?!

[irving2008]

What you propose is essentially what mechanik suggested, make your own clamp plates patterned on the ones you already have, out of 10mm plate milled down to 9.5mm at one end. Personally I wouldn't go to the trouble of making hold down blocks.

I wouldn't put some paper under if you plan to ever use the vice jaws as a datum. Put a dti in the spindle, make sure the table and the bottom of the vice are scrupulously clean and clamp it down. Then measure the height of the top of the jaw or the lip in the jaw or a parallel held in the jaw pressed firmly down (I.e. lightly clamped and then tapped down) against the vice base as you traverse the table. One or more of those should be a flat datum. Putting paper in there, even tobacco paper, will destroy that IMHO but try it and see for yourself.

Ps, if you don't have a set of parallels get some, essential kit for milling IMHO.

[lateAtNight]

Mike / Irving thanks very much for replying guys, its all good advice.

I emailed Arc to see what they said and they were kind enough to give me a call to try and explain their solution involving the stepped angle blocks from the kit. To be honest I didn't understand what they were saying. I would happily recommend Arc to someone. They seem like good people who don't mind giving advice over the phone and their stuff is very well priced, but I got the feeling that although there maybe some way of using the kit, I'm not sure if its a particularly good one. They did suggest that I could mill my own clamps at one point - chicken and egg type situation, a little frustrating - can't make something like that until I have a vice that clamps down!

Irving... I was dubious about the paper thing. I'll try it without the paper and only go down that route if I find the vice slipping. And yes, I am a proud owner of a very heavy set of parallels and a dial indicator :). I bought the machine and then slowly purchased the extras as my bank balance recovered... part of the reason I've yet to cut anything!

Bit of a tangent when you mentioned parallels, but its seems to me that metric based equipment is in the minority?! Arc was one of the few places I could find selling metric parallels and the only place I could find selling the metric equivelent to 1-2-3 blocks. Most of the world with the exception of the states is on metric right?! So silly.

Thanks again,
David.

[mekanik]

To be honest the clamp shown in the photo you provided is a far better option and just needs on hole drilling in a piece of plate that can be done on a pillar drill. The type i described are so easy to make also, i have 4 that i use in conjunction with various lengths of stud iron to clamp stuff to my lathe cross slide when jig drilling holes ect, pack the ends with some coventry die chasers.
Regards
Mike

[irving2008]

Mike / Irving thanks very much for replying guys, its all good advice.

I emailed Arc to see what they said and they were kind enough to give me a call to try and explain their solution involving the stepped angle blocks from the kit. To be honest I didn't understand what they were saying. I would happily recommend Arc to someone. They seem like good people who don't mind giving advice over the phone and their stuff is very well priced, but I got the feeling that although there maybe some way of using the kit, I'm not sure if its a particularly good one. They did suggest that I could mill my own clamps at one point - chicken and egg type situation, a little frustrating - can't make something like that until I have a vice that clamps down!

Irving... I was dubious about the paper thing. I'll try it without the paper and only go down that route if I find the vice slipping. And yes, I am a proud owner of a very heavy set of parallels and a dial indicator :). I bought the machine and then slowly purchased the extras as my bank balance recovered... part of the reason I've yet to cut anything!

Bit of a tangent when you mentioned parallels, but its seems to me that metric based equipment is in the minority?! Arc was one of the few places I could find selling metric parallels and the only place I could find selling the metric equivelent to 1-2-3 blocks. Most of the world with the exception of the states is on metric right?! So silly.

Thanks again,
David.

You could use a stepped block, I'd hazard a guess they were suggesting something like this, though you'd need to experiment and you may need something under the back edge of the upturned stepped block to force it to rotate down onto the vice.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13889&stc=1


If the vice and table are clean, and that means no oil/lube/coolant residue, and securely clamped it wont slip.

Metric parallels aren't essential, what's critical is that they are parallel. you don't use them for measuring, just for supporting stuff in the vice or off the table. if you want to measure, you use gauge blocks.

[lateAtNight]

you don't use them for measuring, just for supporting stuff in the vice or off the table.

Lol, ok, got it... might need to buy some gauges then. Is there any end?! But you still need to know how much stock is above and below the vice jaws right? I guess what I'm saying is I just don't / can't think in imperial measurements at all. I can look at something and say 18mm parallels will hold that nicely... can't think 1 and 3/16 or whatever.

[irving2008]

I've never needed gauge blocks and they're expensive beasts. Unlikely ever to need them with CNC

[lateAtNight]

Just looked them up... yes they are expensive!

[EddyCurrent]

It's 22 hours since mekanik posted the right solution, you should have had them made several times over by now :encouragement::excitement:

[mekanik]

Thanks for that Eddy
Irving
You don't use the stepped blocks like that, you would just use the one on the end set to the appropriate step height.
regards
Mike

[mekanik]

Hi Guys
me again
Just thought i would add before i get corrected, re stepped packing blocks.
they are actually designed to be used as a pair leaving you with a parallel surface to clamp off and so they are usually used on tall jobbies so are not really suitable for your application, was not being pedantic.
Regards
Mike

[m_c]

Another option would be original MiteeBite clamps, and they can be used for other work holding aswell.
They're not cheap, but they are a very versatile low profile clamping system!
50642 is the kit you'd most likely need, or you could buy a pack of just the cam clamps 50206 (come in a pack of 10) and make the other bits yourself. But having just checked the catalogue, I've just realised you can get packs of 2 t-slot clamps, which for 8mm slot is 50422.
WDS is the only online UK stockist I'm aware off, and you'll need to add '590-' in front of the mitee bite part no.s.
If you're interested and willing to wait, I'm on the process of designing a jig that'll use some of the 50206 clamps, but I won't be needing the full pack, so would be willing to sell you a couple.
.
Sticking with what you've got, you could grind/machine down the top side of the end of the clamp fingers so they fit in the vice groove. The grinding/machining doesn't have to be pretty, as long as the underside is still flat.
As a temp fix, get some longer bolts and use the clamp set to clamp on the top of the vice, be that either on top of the jaw(s) and/or on the top of the main body provided there is enough room behind the moving jaw.

[irving2008]

Thanks for that Eddy
Irving
You don't use the stepped blocks like that, you would just use the one on the end set to the appropriate step height.
regards
Mike
Yes I know, I wouldn't use them like that either, I'd have just made some new dogs out of 10mm plate. I was trying to second guess what arc had suggested to the OP!

[jimbo_cnc]

Yes I know, I wouldn't use them like that either, I'd have just made some new dogs out of 10mm plate. I was trying to second guess what arc had suggested to the OP!

Well if I was you I'd remove that non-suggestion before someone tries it and get a vice in the stomach.