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Boyan Silyavski
30-11-2014, 01:35 AM
Hi,

now that i have build one (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6457-Sturdy-and-Fast-all-Steel-CNC-my-first-build) and meanwhile building my big beast (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6619-Quite-an-Unusual-one) , couldn't help but start to design my next project.


Warning:
This one is quite ambitious. It is meant to be my first more serious commercial product in the CNC world, including the plans, so let be known from the beginning. While maybe i will not sell the plans themselves, i will sell them together with detailed manual step by step how to DIY. The end result will be sold as a kit or finished, may be even some Kickstarter campaign to see if there is any interest. So be warned. Of course for fellow forum members the plans will be for free.

If you don't agree, don't post in the thread. I will use and abuse your ideas :devilish:. Though help, critique and ideas will be greatly appreciated.



Background:
First let me tell you i am tired of [noh-mad]s, 3040, 4060, funny Kickstarter campains, chinese electronic and mechanical jokes, ugly plans at ebay and similar overpriced crap . I hope you agree with me here.



Now the purpose of Beastie:
I believe is time to do something about all the bad stuff floating around. So i decided to sit down and design something that will kill any thoughts of buying the crap. Like an antivirus of a kind :hysterical:.


The Idea
-to be not so much more expensive than the crap
-in kit to be equal price to the crap
-to be so rigid to accept from 0.8kw to 3kw spindle / why not even a small mill spindle/

The way to do it:
The design. This is the key..I believe it could be done. So let me explain some points here.

-Working area wide X300mm and Z150mm. The length Y will be 300mm. The machine will be designed so that it could be easily scaled up to 400mm wide and 600mm long.
The key here is not be working are hungry but to make all things properly. Other very interesting objective of mine is to design in CAM like fully parametric solid model. Which means sb says, hey i need 300x400x160 and i for a minute generate him the detailed drawing.

-all alu plates will be 2D cut, faces for rails milled for easy alignment. No holes or bolts on the thin sides, 2 plates will be mounted together via square bar inside. This is one of the 2 most important parts. No flipping aluminum sheets, drill, profile, pocket where necessary and that's all. The second most important idea is that this will lead to fast assembly. Thats the purpose-machine to be fully assembled from scratch for a day. So no steel, no paint and so there.

The Gantry
Now isn't this important. The gantry will be fixed. I gave a lot of thought and that's the proper way i believe to do it. Not only this but is made from 20mm ali plate that forms a box with another plates, for now 6mm, ribs will be fixed where necessary. When i do the final calcs will see what is the price difference for making all from 20mm stuff and will decide then. For now thats how would be.

The electronics
Not many doubts here almost 100% the Leadshine MX660 - Three Axis Digital Microstepping Driver all in one
and as an upgrade CSMIO/IP-M 4-axis Ethernet Motion Controller with Leadshine AM822 or similar. Motors 3nm, from Zapp.
Now here i have a question. If more axis are needed couldn't we just fit one more Leadshine MX660?

Mechanics
Hiwin 20, the long HA blocks, 1605, 1610 screws and may be even geared for better resolution for ultra fine jobs, cause i don't see how this small size will develop speeds


So thats all for now. I am starting from sketch drawings to develop them little by little in detail.

The price
I still have no exact idea, but i hope that in kit form it will result in build for less or around 1500euro. Or at least that's the idea. Now tell me what you think. This is not cheap cheap but hey, we are talking a bout quality machine here.


Dimensions:
The idea is foot print of no more than 600x600mm and 600mm high for 300x300x150mm working area. Thats a challenge also but i am almost there.

The Z plate
250x250 for now and i believe its a minimum but minimum where still is maximum strong. the bearing spread and footprint i mean, having in mind that we are talking here HA bearings, the long ones 95mm each

Other
Now,here is the deal. the electronics will be below the machine or in the gantry or at both places. And one main idea is also the gantry and sides and base to be epoxy fill ready, sand fill ready. So i will spend a lot of thought here. One thing is clear. The electronics will be inside somehow. My machine is like this and there is no problem. Air filter and ventilator will be essential. i know Dean will be the first to say that this is not right. But it must be. :frog:


Some pictures where i am now, as i said still in sketch form:
On picture 5 you can see in yellow all the plates that are 20mm thick. All rest is 6mm. For now.



The working area for now 300x300x150, the gantry is 200mm deep x 600mm wide, the gantry legs form 140x200mm each

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13941&stc=1


Now without the working area shown

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13942&stc=1


The motor moving the table will be down inside

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13943&stc=1


http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13944&stc=1

the 20mm plates in yellow. All rest 6mm for now untill i do the last calcs when the design is finished. Anyway, structurally there will be no problem.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13945&stc=1

Clive S
30-11-2014, 08:46 AM
Now here i have a question. If more axis are needed couldn't we just fit one more Leadshine MX660?
That might be a waste because you would be adding another 3 axis and another spindle control etc. Although it is a nice unit and easy to setup, I used one on an x3 mill conversion. ..Clive

EddyCurrent
30-11-2014, 11:36 AM
Does the Z plate really have to be that wide ?

Boyan Silyavski
30-11-2014, 11:51 AM
Does the Z plate really have to be that wide ?

Depends. I want to be able to fit even 80-100mm OD spindle, not only the 0.8kw which is 65 mm. But its all together. Not only the Z. Depends what Z design will use, depends on how the electronics will fit inside.


But i am glad Eddie, that your first question was about the Z, that means that may be you see all that doable.

mitchejc
30-11-2014, 12:30 PM
Silyavki, I like your idea and concept drawing and I think there will be a market for an affordable small machine that's capable of some real work. It might be difficult to do something like that on a budget looking at those big alu parts. You might consider using something more affordable for some of the large parts e.g. instead of using solid 20mm plate use two 2mm or 3mm plates epoxied to a 20mm birch ply or even mdf core. A bit more expensive but maybe bamboo ply for core? Make a piece like that and try bending it, you will be surprised how stiff it is. The laminated approach does however complicate some things because you do not have a solid core to tap holes etc but I guess there are good plans to make it work e.g. bolts right true or alu inserts in the wood core were thru holes is not feasible.

vargai
30-11-2014, 12:52 PM
The price
[/B]I still have no exact idea, but i hope that in kit form it will result in build for less or around 1500euro. Or at least that's the idea. Now tell me what you think. This is not cheap cheap but hey, we are talking a bout quality machine here.

At first sight seems under estimated with this graded element.
I have updated my TBI calculation to this set up to rough comparison and think only Hiwin with adding factory made bearing will reach about the 1K EUR.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13947&stc=1

Boyan Silyavski
30-11-2014, 01:07 PM
:angel: No bamboo will be harmed in the making of that machine. :angel:

One of the key point as i said is the design, so one of the jobs will be to make all small alu parts from the cut offs of the other parts. Even if i have to spend a month designing this.
Plus - remember, its only a sketch. It could be lightened where possible and necessary. If deemed worth.


I have not done the calc about the Hiwins and the ball screws. But i believe all the Hiwin will be around ~500$ and the ball screws around 250$ +200$ shipping.



But now its not the moment to be bothered about this or it will never happen. We know how not to do it. Lets think a way how to do it. At the end when all is clear corners then will be cut.

example:
Say a kick starter campaign and 50 people buy it. Then fifty kits will be totally different price. Now say that i share container, say that .... There are possibilities when the idea is perfectly clear.

EddyCurrent
30-11-2014, 01:21 PM
:angel: No bamboo will be harmed in the making of that machine. :angel::hysterical:

Just throwing ideas in; is there any mileage in this Z plate design ? http://www.cambam.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4495.msg32687;topicseen#msg32687
At the very least I'm thinking it could be useful as a method of spindle mounting, making it easy to swap spindles or maybe swap to a laser head, etc.

GEOFFREY
30-11-2014, 09:02 PM
Great stuff!!! I tried to get something going as a project some time ago, but did not manage to get much interest from the site. It needed someone very experienced to run the project and you seem to have all the necessary skills.Fixed gantry is a good way to build a small rigid machine, but I personally would have liked to see the basis machine with a 600mm x 400mm working area. Anyway I wish you the very best of luck with this venture, and look forward to hearing more. Kickstarter sounds a good idea - who knows, I may even be a customer (I seem to collect cnc machines). G.

mekanik
30-11-2014, 09:48 PM
It's great that you have found the time to look into this, we are frequently asked if there are any decent kits available and have not been able to offer any really decent option, with your attention to detail i am sure this will be a good solid machine, have to agree with Geoffrey i think the larger option would be better,my only concern is the cost of all the 20mm plate.
Regards
Mike

EddyCurrent
30-11-2014, 10:10 PM
. . .my only concern is the cost of all the 20mm plate.
Regards
Mike

I think it should be built as a strong skeleton structure that is later plated in with thinner steel sheet to make it look nice. To prevent the thinner material vibrating it should be lined with something like the stuff used in cars; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-VAN-VEHICLE-ANTI-VIBRATION-DRUM-MG-PADS-SHEETS-10-/220638134673

vargai
03-12-2014, 07:50 AM
Say a kick starter campaign and 50 people buy it.
Regarding to the quantity and the goal it is a general principle to think in modular elements.
I do not know if it is applicable to a CNC design but definitely useful.
The problem is if one use two building blocks to make a bigger one it can decrease the accuracy.
But anyway as general principle does not seem bad.

Gotty101
03-12-2014, 12:56 PM
This is a real cool project. I would love to help but im very much a newbie to this at the moment, but i will be watching with interest.

Trev

bikepete
03-12-2014, 04:45 PM
I think it should be built as a strong skeleton structure that is later plated in with thinner steel sheet to make it look nice. To prevent the thinner material vibrating it should be lined with something like the stuff used in cars; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-VAN-VEHICLE-ANTI-VIBRATION-DRUM-MG-PADS-SHEETS-10-/220638134673

I was thinking, looking at the initial designs, that it would be a great idea to have all of the sections closed, so that the user could just fill them with dry sand after shipping...

EDIT "And one main idea is also the gantry and sides and base to be epoxy fill ready, sand fill ready." Doh! teach me to look at the pics and not read the text properly before posting... as you were...

EddyCurrent
03-12-2014, 05:26 PM
I was thinking, looking at the initial designs, that it would be a great idea to have all of the sections closed, so that the user could just fill them with dry sand after shipping...

EDIT "And one main idea is also the gantry and sides and base to be epoxy fill ready, sand fill ready." Doh! teach me to look at the pics and not read the text properly before posting... as you were...


Other
Now,here is the deal. the electronics will be below the machine or in the gantry or at both places. And one main idea is also the gantry and sides and base to be epoxy fill ready, sand fill ready. So i will spend a lot of thought here. One thing is clear. The electronics will be inside somehow.

There's a slight contradiction/anomaly, in that the electronics also have to fit inside the gantry or base. That's why I was thinking about a skeleton that itself could be sand/epoxy filled but the spaces in between where the electronics go could be sheeted in.

Lachlan
13-11-2015, 08:45 AM
Boyan,
I have not seen any well made smallish cnc machines. This will be the ideal machine after people have played with a chinese machine and realised all the shortcomings that cannot be fixed.

Problems for this idea that need to be overcome include how to break it down for postage and keep rigidity as well as ease of constuction and how to fit all electronics in unit or will it need to come with an additional box? Great idea :encouragement:

Boyan Silyavski
16-11-2015, 05:46 PM
Thanks. Actually i have already finished drawings of 3 small machines. This time all in CAD, not Sketchup. I am at the moment at prototype stage, but very busy before new year with some wood working.

Basically 400x600, 600x900 and one fixed gantry. Some secrecy also :-) that's why i still have not shown the drawings. I hope will show the ready machine in a month or 2

What i can say is that i aim to make the best simple machines possible, meaning beautiful and extremely rigid. Will not be cheap cheap, but are aimed for 24h industrial use but without going to tool changers and so that will raise the price. Though a tool changing spindle will be an option.

Cause at the end i believe no point of buying crap that will make your life difficult and will not pay itself fast.

JAZZCNC
16-11-2015, 07:52 PM
Basically 400x600, 600x900 and one fixed gantry. Some secrecy also :-) that's why i still have not shown the drawings.

Good job for you then Boyan WE didn't take the same "It's Secret" Attitude in parting with our Designs and Knowledge .!!. .:thumbdown: :hopelessness:

Boyan Silyavski
17-11-2015, 10:59 AM
Good job for you then Boyan WE didn't take the same "It's Secret" Attitude in parting with our Designs and Knowledge .!!. .:thumbdown: :hopelessness:

Dean,

I don't know why you said that? I am one of the few people that you can count on your left hand, that have shared open source drawing of their machines in CAD format publicly.
Especially machine plans worth making. Proven design i mean. More over i constantly give mail and forum support for the said plans. For free. As you well know many people already have based their frame design on the yellow machine. At the same time people sell crappy plans for 50-100 euro at ebay.

When i say "secret", i mean more "surprise" . But its also a secret at the moment until i have no machine to show. More over this is a commercial project of mine,Maybe Kickstarter. So i will sell the machine, maybe sell or make available the plans and sell some parts with it, so whats the big deal? When ready, i will show it and then you could criticize it as much as you want. Or help.

But FYI these machines are not the typical DYI as the basic concept is big aluminum pieces to be made in serie on big CNC, so yeah, i dont want to show the world my idea for production and assembly solutions for now. Other wise they will be implemented in more crappy machines like " Nomad" and more people would be cheated. Or may be even from the bloody Chinese.

PS:
In my country we dont show the babies to other people untill they are at least 6 months old. To keep them from bad luck :-)

Lee Roberts
17-11-2015, 11:19 AM
When i say "secret", i mean more "surprise".

I must say that when I read your comment, I did interpret that to mean "I'm not ready to show yet, you'll have to wait and see", given your contributions previously.

I left excited to see what you have come up with, as a solution for a machine :).

.Me

JAZZCNC
17-11-2015, 01:40 PM
Dean,

I don't know why you said that?

Why I said it was because to me it said I'm not showing the plans only the machine I intend to sell.!! .. Which I find a little Ironic given that most of what you know now was gladly given to you freely.

I really wish you well with your machine ventures and my objection isn't really related to this in anyway. Also has you rightly say you have previously posted your builds which some find very helpful. But in this case for me personaly it smacked of " I'll show but it will cost you" which in my view isn't fair to the forum given most of what you know was learnt or given freely here.!!

If I got you wrong then sorry but that's how it came across to me.!!

mekanik
17-11-2015, 02:01 PM
Eye Spy with my little eye, first post

Of course for fellow forum members the plans will be for free.

JAZZCNC
17-11-2015, 02:42 PM
Eye Spy with my little eye, first post
Quote
Of course for fellow forum members the plans will be for free.

Ah ah like Manuals I don't read threads until after the event. . . :loyal:

Boyan Silyavski
17-11-2015, 03:21 PM
Eye Spy with my little eye, first post

Of course for fellow forum members the plans will be for free.

Exactly! Even in Cad format.

Sorry, i am eating dust sanding something all day so i did not have the time to sit down and explain better.

Lee Roberts
17-11-2015, 03:25 PM
Exactly! Even in Cad format.

Sorry, i am eating dust sanding something all day so i did not have the time to sit down and explain better.

Dont worry about it, you did a good enough job at explaining...you dont have time for sanding !

.Me

cropwell
17-11-2015, 04:10 PM
Further up this thread there is mention of sand or epoxy filling the frame. Is this a naive question, but would foam filling (that evil stuff in a spray can, that builders use) give enough resonance damping to be useful ?

Rob

mekanik
17-11-2015, 04:46 PM
Hi Rob
I wouldn't think so, you are looking for a dense mass, foam is light and full of gas.
Mike

cropwell
17-11-2015, 05:02 PM
I wouldn't think so, you are looking for a dense mass, foam is light and full of gas.

My thought was that the closed cell structure of the foam would act as damping. I know that traditional thinking for acoustic damping is to add mass, but nowadays there must be some material that would act as an vibration absorbing foam. I must get some of this foam and fill a metre length of 50x50x3 box section to see the effect on ringing. I'll bet it would f**k up a set of tubular bells :devilish:

Rob

mekanik
17-11-2015, 05:07 PM
You could be right Rob, i seem to recall something on the forum about damping, will have a look in my Docs to see if i can find it.

mekanik
17-11-2015, 06:50 PM
Rob
Have a look here
http://solutions.3m.com.sg/wps/portal/3M/en_SG/Aero/3MAerospace/Products/ProductCatalog/?PC_Z7_RJH9U52300AM00IHTBDVRSO9G0000000_nid=GSY86N B39XbeNVTNM5RSXLgl

cropwell
17-11-2015, 08:22 PM
Hi Mike,

This is the stuff used for sound deadening on car panels and the like. My friend has a garage and uses Dynamat. It is expensive.

I am looking at the weight aspects and also it is fairly easy to squirt this sort of stuff http://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-expanding-foam-hand-held-750ml/45865 into a box section.

When I get to it, it wouldn't hurt to fill the gantry and frame, especially if you put in plastic tubes to run wiring. I am really looking to find out if anyone has already tried it.

Rob

mekanik
17-11-2015, 08:45 PM
If anyone is interested PM me your e-mail address and i will send you the Doc i was looking @ I tried over on the 3M site but couldn't find the stuff used in the article. it was 3M Scotchdamp ISD-112 and it was 1mm thick.
Mike

pierantoine
12-12-2015, 11:04 PM
Hi,
I remember that i've seen something interesting one year ago... about filling a milling machine with an epoxy concrete...
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMillEpoxyFill.htm