8x4 Wall Mounted; Upright ply cutter

[kingcreaky]

Hi All

I was going to wait until Ive finished; but as its properly DEAD at work today, and ive exhaused ebay, and all of the forums I usually frequent under these circumstances, I thought id upload the pictures of my present build just in case anybody else is as bored as I.

I am building the machine for a friend, who will use the machine for cutting sheet ply. I started this end of last month and I aim to have it ready for start of January

The requirements for this build are as follows

* It is required to cut 8x4 sheet ply, 18mm thick with a 6mm cutter
* It needs to be wall mounted (work will be screwed to the sacrificial base)
* The room is 3m x 3m in which it will be used. So needs to be assembled on site.
* Its a start-up company therefore finances are tight, it must be as cheap as possible.

The design is very similar to my other builds (same ali gantry design IL, thick 6mm steel frame) except this time Ive bolted the entire frame to allow for adjustment

Ive cut all the steel using his three phase suds cooled industrial chop saw; which enabled me to cut the steel extremely accurately. I achieved squareness by doing minimal welding, and lots of "bolt" fixing; measuring from corner to corner.

2510 fixed ballscrews with spinning nuts (thans jonathon)
cheap chineese 860 drivers

heres the lazy design anyway (no ballscrews, or triangulation on frame)

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/plan1.jpg
http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/plan2.jpg


and here is where I am so far.




http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/1.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/2.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/3.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/4.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/5.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/6.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/7.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/8.jpg

[kingcreaky]

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/9.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/10.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/11.jpg

http://www.pensys.co.uk/chris/12.jpg








il post more, as I do more.

[EddyCurrent]

You don't hang about once you start !. Call me biased but I think your gantry design is a good one :applause:
Nice welding.

[njhussey]

You don't hang about once you start !. Call me biased but I think your gantry design is a good one :applause:

I like the design of the gantry too.....only difference is that mine's in steel....

I'm not jealous of the speed in which you knock these fantastic machines up.....after all mine's only taken 4 years to get to the same stage you've reached in 4 weeks..... :applause::applause::applause:

[GEOFFREY]

Thats looking really good KC. To think that you are able design and build a machine like that in 4-6 weeks in your garage (sorry - home workshop) is fantastic. I don't think you will have much time for darts this christmas!!! speaking of which "Merry Christmas" to you and all forum members. Well done. G.

[EddyCurrent]

Just thinking, are those SBR bearings designed to work on their side ?

[kingcreaky]

Just thinking, are those SBR bearings designed to work on their side ?


probably not!!. will see how they go!!. I only put them on to wind dean up... :D as I know how much he adores them.

only joking... they are like toys compared to hiwin type ones (now that I have used them to compare them)

it was only when (in another thread on here) the other day somebody pointed out how cheap the "proper" rails are now, that I started wishing id used them... oh well! next machine il use them.

[JAZZCNC]

probably not!!. will see how they go!!. I only put them on to wind dean up... :D as I know how much he adores them.

only joking... they are like toys compared to hiwin type ones (now that I have used them to compare them)

Doesn't whind me up if you want to put shite on your machines. .:hysterical:

[JoeHarris]

Looking good! Loving the yellow. Hope you have a fun (and productive) Christmas...

[Sven]

Very nice to be able to look at something different being well executed!

[Noplace]

Nice, I'm new to the field but interested in making a machine one day, may I ask are those rails or ball screws on the yaxis? i really like this design and would copy it if you care to share where to get them? and based on my logic i would say they are rails, so where do you plan on mounting the ball screws? or whatever would drive the y axis? thanks!

[longy]

KC, nice job looks good looks like New Holland combine yellow to me, just don't paint the gantry green :sour:

[kingcreaky]

finished. installed into my buddys work yesterday.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2Vx-FKjzM&feature=youtu.be

[GEOFFREY]

Brilliant, and such a quick build. Great stuff. G.

[Clive S]

Just goes to show what can be achieved in a small amount of time. I see you didn't go with the lime green gantry:devilish:.
Well done. ..Clive

[njhussey]

Brilliant build, you've built 3 fantastic CNC machines in the time I've been fanning around with mine ;)

[EddyCurrent]

Yes it's a great job, soon you'll be going into production.

[JoeHarris]

Well done, as expected, ridiculously quick! Just one question - doesn't all the crap fall into your X axis bearing, mounting it that way around? Some kind of guard might be a plan?!

[Boyan Silyavski]

Great job! I have a lot to learn from you about the "fast".

What size of steel profile was used? Whats the total weight of the machine? Did you thread the profile for the connections or the bolts are pass through?

[kingcreaky]

Just one question - doesn't all the crap fall into your X axis bearing,

YEP!!!. Im working a anti-gravity machine.... or... mounting it upside down on the roof!...

Seriously; The extraction system will have a bottom rail to catch any falling dust.

my greater worry is the x bearings being used on their side...






What size of steel profile was used? Whats the total weight of the machine? Did you thread the profile for the connections or the bolts are pass through?

* 60 x 60 x 6 and 100 x 60 x 6
* Yep threaded hundreds of holes (got w*nkers wrist!)
* I Dont believe any "nuts" are used.



Nobody has pointed out any faults?? I was expecting a wooping.... this is only techically mk1... mk2 Il learn from the mistakes on this one.

So; il be honest.

1.) The biggest mistake... I should of had the ends (both) of the X ballscrews threaded; so I could put them under tension. They do sag a bit under their own weight.

2.) linear bearings being used on etheir side? X???

3.) The Z movement is way too much... it probably only uses half of the travel available (so unnecessary weight on gantry)

4.) really needs twice as many bed support braces. The distance inbetween them in launghable... space for twice as many

5.) No water cooling yet for spindle in video

6.) No emergency stops; panic buttons etc

7.) Need to add proximity for auto-square; but where I had mounted the brackets didnt account for quite how tight the fit into the room would be. Il have to re-think.



Now thats out of the way; fitting a really noisy roller shutter door to my workshop/garage (just to wind up my new classy neghbours), and to allow me to squeeze my van in.

Im then spraying van; in workshop (old vw camper)

once thats gone; take delivery of my new bridgeport mill!!!! ssshhhh dont tell misses

then start building my new machine (like this one)

[JAZZCNC]

Nobody has pointed out any faults?? I was expecting a wooping.... this is only techically mk1... mk2 Il learn from the mistakes on this one.

Where would you like me to begin!. . . :hysterical: . . . Only Joking mate for it's intended purpose of chomping ply it will be fine.!

As your about to findout going vertical is great but there's a few areas that need protecting and designing around.

Z axis one area as the crap will settle on the top edge and build up so make a cover or angled guard.
Also in your case using rotating nuts at top then crap will also fall into the bearing housing so cover that ASAP.

With lower bearings then you (know whats coming here) throw the crap away and get the real thing.! (thou that will test how accurate the frame is.!!)
For catching and moving crap Make an angled slide that extends from bed to just below gantry then crap falls over the rails not onto them. Put a wiper on edge and it will wipe the gantry plates.

I would have have put a slight angle on the machine rather than being 90deg as it helps with holding work and stops large sheets or pieces faling forward.

Keep up the good work but slow down a little rushing abart will kill ya.!!. . .:thumsup:

[Earle]

Just like the last build, a very useful source of information and techniques. Probably learnt more from your last two builds than 90% of the other builds on here.

i bet you spend half your time beating off people wanting builds done especially in those sorts of timescales.

thanks for the time that you have taken to provide REAL information and show what is possible if you do not get bogged down with techno crap.

earle

[Boyan Silyavski]

Just like the last build, a very useful source of information and techniques. Probably learnt more from your last two builds than 90% of the other builds on here.

i bet you spend half your time beating off people wanting builds done especially in those sorts of timescales.

thanks for the time that you have taken to provide REAL information and show what is possible if you do not get bogged down with techno crap.

earle


The time and thought you invest in a machine=the result you can expect. If you are happy with that...

[GEOFFREY]

The time and thought you invest in a machine=the result you can expect. If you are happy with that...
KC, you outlined at the begining what you expected of this machine, and I am sure that it will perform exactly as you wanted. I think that you invested wisely with your time and thought, and that you should have every reason to be happy with that!!! Well done again. G.

[njhussey]

The time and thought you invest in a machine=the result you can expect. If you are happy with that...
Who's that having a dig at Silyavski?

[Clive S]

Well, I am sorry but I thought it was a bit snide:upset: ..Clive

[AndyGuid]

Chill Out Dudes! I don't think Sylyavski is having a dig at anyone. Please remember that not everyone's brain is limited to a single language! I would guess that Sylyavski may well be proficient in THREE so please cut him a bit of slack if he doesn't have the infinitesimal grasp of both the language and culture that some might anally expect from a native Brit!

[kingcreaky]

:hysterical: cant make sense of the last few posts; maybe some have been deleted or something? I read silyavski's post earlier and gathered there was a sense of humour barrier through translation, but didnt take offense.

I had a similar experience the other year in australia (but thats a different story!!)

either way; im far to easy going to read to much into these things. All of us choose to post on here; the reason in which we do it is to gather feedback from likeminded others that we cant necessarily get from our local friendbase... we cant expect them all to be complimentary...regardless of the intentions sinister of not silyavski makes a good inspiring point..

"Productive" time spent on anything is directly relative to what you end up with (except women) which is probably the opposite!

I just have a bit of an obsessive personality and as such I cant leave something alone until its done. Something I need to learn from maybe.

The machine was made with primative DIY equipment; a stick welder, a cordless drill, a bandsaw, a pillar drill and a pencil. I have a full-time job, children and a wife. Its no milling machine but it does the job it was intended for; There are things I would do differently if I made another.

One point I would like to make, without upsetting anybody is to ask you all to put yourself in the shoes of somebody who hits this place with no engineering background... some of the builds on here, some of the posts, some of the equations in some of the build logs, some of the responses we make to hello posts... must seem so intimidating and out of reach of most of our newcomers, perhaps a build like mine seem more appealing.. because they are in the grasp of a home hobbiest with the tools that most have.

:beer: beer O'clock in leciester...

[EddyCurrent]

Well reading your first build certainly got me off the ground so thanks.

beer O'clock here too, new Guinness Porter actually.:beer:

[Earle]

The time and thought you invest in a machine=the result you can expect. If you are happy with that...

I hear what you are saying... I'm just pleased to see someone applying some common sense knowledge and experience, to produce a useable machine in a very short timescale. These are my views if people disagree then whatever.

Personally I think that kingcreaky is quite an inspiration.

earle

[Boyan Silyavski]

I hear what you are saying... I'm just pleased to see someone applying some common sense knowledge and experience, to produce a useable machine in a very short timescale. These are my views if people disagree then whatever.

Personally I think that kingcreaky is quite an inspiration.

earle



Hi Earle,
what i said about invested time =result , was not criticizing the build, which as i said before inspires me too. So if i wanted to say something to kingcreaky i would have quoted him.

This was but a direct response to your words: "thanks for the time that you have taken to provide REAL information and show what is possible if you do not get bogged down with techno crap", cause according to me that needed an answer. :hysterical:


Cause it seemed to me that what you are saying implies that all the "techno crap" we brag here at the forum is not REAL.


Anyway it was not meant as an offence. First i wrote a long answer then i shortened it, so you will not think i am bragging and could make your own conclusion.

But here is the longer one:
Not every one on the forum will work wood with a router but even if so, a fast and precise machine is needed. What i say that many people expect their machines to make money, its not just a weekend hobby. But if you want to make money many times you need the best possible. Or you don't get the job.

Now let me give you a small example. I have friends making model boats that live nearby. last year they ordered mold for custom mast, say 4meters of 100x200mm aluminum, consisting of 2 pieces and further cut down to 2 meters ,joined together. This is a simple job, materials= ~400euro . Now put one 0 more and you will get what they paid for the mold here in Spain.
So that job could not be done on a machine which is wobbly, imprecise or will not make perfect finish, as there inside other parts fit, its cast from very expensive carbon fibre, and so on.

You get what i say? Only this missed job is more that the price of materials invested in a similar machine and half of the money i am investing in what i am building now. 2 jobs like this pay even the most expensive build.

Or i am a big fool that spends a month just to align my long rails and 400euros of epoxy + additional shimming. Not to speak of the 2m straight edge i bought especially and only for that purpose. I could have build another machine during that time.

So again i am saying it: invested time and money=result. And i would like the result to be the pleasure and $$$$. Not constant repairs, constant upgrades and so on. Nothing against fast and cheap builds. The thing is i have such machine already and i know the frustration every time before a job, during a job and later , when i want to take the big hammer and ... say f%%%k in one of the 4 languages i speak and write fluently :sentimental:

[Earle]

Hi Earle,
what i said about invested time =result , was not criticizing the build, which as i said before inspires me too. So if i wanted to say something to kingcreaky i would have quoted him.

This was but a direct response to your words: "thanks for the time that you have taken to provide REAL information and show what is possible if you do not get bogged down with techno crap", cause according to me that needed an answer. :hysterical:


Cause it seemed to me that what you are saying implies that all the "techno crap" we brag here at the forum is not REAL.


Anyway it was not meant as an offence. First i wrote a long answer then i shortened it, so you will not think i am bragging and could make your own conclusion.

But here is the longer one:
Not every one on the forum will work wood with a router but even if so, a fast and precise machine is needed. What i say that many people expect their machines to make money, its not just a weekend hobby. But if you want to make money many times you need the best possible. Or you don't get the job.

Now let me give you a small example. I have friends making model boats that live nearby. last year they ordered mold for custom mast, say 4meters of 100x200mm aluminum, consisting of 2 pieces and further cut down to 2 meters ,joined together. This is a simple job, materials= ~400euro . Now put one 0 more and you will get what they paid for the mold here in Spain.
So that job could not be done on a machine which is wobbly, imprecise or will not make perfect finish, as there inside other parts fit, its cast from very expensive carbon fibre, and so on.

You get what i say? Only this missed job is more that the price of materials invested in a similar machine and half of the money i am investing in what i am building now. 2 jobs like this pay even the most expensive build.

Or i am a big fool that spends a month just to align my long rails and 400euros of epoxy + additional shimming. Not to speak of the 2m straight edge i bought especially and only for that purpose. I could have build another machine during that time.

So again i am saying it: invested time and money=result. And i would like the result to be the pleasure and $$$$. Not constant repairs, constant upgrades and so on. Nothing against fast and cheap builds. The thing is i have such machine already and i know the frustration every time before a job, during a job and later , when i want to take the big hammer and ... say f%%%k in one of the 4 languages i speak and write fluently :sentimental:

I will keep this short. I stand by my original personal statement if you take offense to it then I am sorry that you are so easily offended. In no way was it a pointed statement on members who take their time and build a whatever... I don't think I need to explain my statement any further!

Earle

[JAZZCNC]

Ok well here's my 2 cents.!

I completely agree with Boyan(Silyavski) and get what he's saying completely. (Thou I don't agree with some of the OTT building happening which he as IMO done but that's another issue and is IMO others do and will disagree)
I also Know Matt and get exactly what he's done. Which IMO He's hit the nail on the head and I applaud him for building a machine to do exactly what it says on the tin, which is Chomping thru ply wood.

Now the thing that bothers me here comes from experience speaking and helping others and knowing how people see an react to build threads.?
Newbies don't see this machine was built for low level purpose(even thou it was stated at beginning) or will realise this machine is limited in accurecy.!!
They just see a machine built quickly and with limited budget and tools and think that it's easy.! . . .Only after getting far into the build or finishing do they realise there is a little more to it than just throwing some steel together. End result is at best they are dissapointed in the results as it's not what they thought it would be or worse doesn't work and they give up.!!

Unfortunatly building any machine with decent accurecy levels does take some effort and expense which is what Boyan was saying and 100% correctly IMO.
Now I've shouted loud enough for the "Techno Crap" and OTT building to be curbed and some degree of sanity and common sense to applied. But there are occasions like this one where thru NO ONES fault the waters get muddied.!!

I'm in NO WAY having a dig at Matt or the machine because it's done and is doing exactly what it was built to do.!!. . But New builders and lurkers I feel need to be aware that this machine is limited in accurecy so if taking this route don't expact high accurecy you see on some other machines.

Matt as Done a great JOB in the short time but there's a reason.?? . . . . .He's ADDICTED TO CNC and got OCD. (join the club):toot::yahoo::hysterical:

[Earle]

Jazz, Exactly he managed to build a machine 'that was fit for purpose', although like with all things lessons are learnt on the way.

For god's sake lets put this to bed, if someone wants to build a machine that is aerospace accurate and do it over a couple of years then 'yipppe I ay' :encouragement:

earle

[EddyCurrent]

Edit: written before Earle's last post but posted after it.

Not that it matters but here's what I think.
If you look at Matt's first build log; http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/5174-operation-cnc?p=36501#post36501
you will see he has been through the techno crap stages like everyone else. Now he's in a position to make it look easy becasue of that experience and the other builds he did.
But New builders and lurkers I feel you need to be aware that this machine was build by someone who made it look easy, not because he cut out the techno crap but because he was experienced.

[JAZZCNC]

But New builders and lurkers I feel you need to be aware that this machine was build by someone who made it look easy, not because he cut out the techno crap but because he was experienced.

NO it was made to look easy because he has experienced just enough to know how much Crap to cut so could achieve the intended purpose.!!

One other point I'd like to make is that this quick build and getting away with lesser accurecy build level was largely due to components used like round linear rails and normally prohibitly expansive rotating ballnuts.!!. . It would be a very differant story if profiled linear rails and conventional ballnut had been used.:dejection:

Again I'll Say it for clarity I'm Not having a Dig at Matt (or anyone really) in anyway shape or form he's done a great job. Just stated what I wrote for sake of others as usual.!

[charlieuk]

Whats the advantage/disadvantage of rotating the ball nut rather than the screw? why did you choose to do it this way? Are there any more pictures of how you did it

[JAZZCNC]

Whats the advantage/disadvantage of rotating the ball nut rather than the screw? why did you choose to do it this way? Are there any more pictures of how you did it

The advantages are that only the ballnut is rotating so you don't get screw whip that can be common on long screws. Also the rotating mass is much less so smaller motors/drives can be used, alsoon a lesser note there's some speed advantage.

Problem or should say disadvantage with them is the cost if you try to buy the real thing.? They are silly money. This design is Jonathans and they where made by him just search the forum for rotating ballnut and you'll see he's posted the design.

While DIY you still need to be pretty well tooled up and know your way around a lathe and able to work to good tolerences and still there is a cost involved compared to normal setup that IMO negates the cost saving of being able to use smaller motors/drives.
So the real advantage IMO is that you take away the risk of whip/resonance etc that comes with long screws. I'd certainly use it over other means like R&P for long machines but you do need to be proficeint with a lathe and engineering. Farming the work out to a engineering company would not cost effective as well IMO as there is a fair amount of time involved to make these.

[charlieuk]

Cheers jazz I will look into it more but like you say probably not cost effective unless you have a good lathe to hand

[Jonathan]

Just to be clear, the rotating nut concept doesn't eliminate the problem of the screw resonating, it just raises the resonant frequency so you can go faster. The main reason the resonant frequency is raised is it enables you to mount the ends of the ball-screw more rigidly than with bearings, so for it to work well you need to make good strong mounts for both ends or the screw, with some adjustment in them to help with alignment.

The negative side is that to do a sufficiently accurate job of machining the mounts requires some care, so they take a long time to machine - at least with the equipment I have.

[charlieuk]

So it's posable to do a 8' ball screw with out a rotating but but you are just more limited with speeds?

[Clive S]

So it's posable to do a 8' ball screw with out a rotating but but you are just more limited with speeds?I would say so but it would have to be a greater diameter and therefore you would need bigger motors to drive it etc. But wait for the tech boys to chirp in:cower: ..Clive

[JAZZCNC]

I would say so but it would have to be a greater diameter and therefore you would need bigger motors to drive it etc. But wait for the tech boys to chirp in:cower: ..Clive

First prize to this man.. .:thumsup:

For 8' your into 25mm screws minimum and has clive says motors & drives to match. Thou Charlie you are familiar with the motor/drives already as they are the Nema 34 and high power Kinco type you are using now.
What you can do to help ease screw whip is use higher lead on the screws and put ratio on them. So say 20mm pitch with 2:1 will give you same feedrate as 10mm pitch but with half the RPM on screw so helping to eliminate whip etc.
If for wood use then 25mm screws with 25mm lead and 2:1 ratio would work well as it will give decent feedrate/resolution for wood and suit slower spinning nema 34 motors better.

[Jonathan]

Charlie, have you read the threads here (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/3340-Rotating-Ballnut-design-ideas) and here (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6997-Rotating-Ballnut-Design-MK3)? That should answer your questions.

The critical speed for an 8' 25mm ballscrew is about 370rpm, so if 20mm pitch you'd get 370*25=7400mm/min, which might be acceptable. With a rotating nut maybe twice that.