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Chaz
16-06-2015, 01:33 PM
Hi,

So very pleased to start this thread. After my previous thread of 'what decent milling' machine, I found a school owned Triac VMC for sale. After a massive struggle to transport the unit and buying it unseen, it was delivered this morning. The mill was sold with a few extra tools but with a fault that the OS does not boot up. On the basis that I will likely retrofit some / all of the electronics, I considered this in the purchase decision and costing.

Initial thoughts are wow, its massive. Its also fairly heavy, as we had discovered when manually unloading it. The lads had loaded it up the previous day and clearly hadnt learnt about getting an engine hoist or similar to help.

I will upload pics in a bit, but the mill looks fairly clean, little use. I could not lift the front door to see much more as its interlocked and needs power to unlock.

Not a lot of unhappyness, apart from when they left, I tried to close the garage door and could not. Fortunately a bit of an effort and the garage door was closed. There is a bit of damage on the bottom as the machine has been man handled to move it but nothing serious.

The machine has come with more tools than expected and also a semi decent looking vice. I suspect if I add up the tools and few extras, some value already.

What is also included is a lot of the documentation and also very usefully, the wiring diagram.

So, what can I see from the diagram?

Three Phase power (which I dont have), stepped down to 110V and 24V for control.

Servo X Y Z control, not stepper. If the motors are good, this might be very awesome.

The Spindle looks to be DC, running from a 0-10V Analog signal.

The ATC looks to be servo based.

So lots of servos, no steppers. This is a good thing?

So, it might be a CSLabs IP-A controller, try and use the drives, see what I get?

http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/produkt-7,2-CSMIOIPA_Ethernet_Motion_Controller__10V_6_axis_wi th_connectors.html

The coolant pump seems to be the only 3 phase item .... I need to see how I can sort running on an inverter or moving the power to single phase.

Thoughts / comments / discussion welcome. Will post pics in a bit as soon as they are uploaded.

Chaz
16-06-2015, 02:18 PM
OK, so first pics. There is something missing in the top left of the cabinet ...... and then on the top right of the ATC. Any idea what this could be? The wiring diagram doesn't seem to show what this is (shows as empty in the commissioning data). Will have to trace the wires to see where it goes. The rest look like pneumatic tubes or similar.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15561&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15562&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15563&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15564&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15565&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15566&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15567&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15568&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15569&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15570&stc=1

Chaz
16-06-2015, 02:26 PM
OK, this is the ATC wiring diagram. I am assuming that its a servo on the basis that there is some encoder wiring. Would this be correct? The panasonic unit seems to be some form of geared motor.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15571&stc=1

For the missing bits, the cover of the ATC is off but I dont think anything goes into the cover, not sure, will check when I get home.

Chaz
16-06-2015, 02:27 PM
These look to be the XYZ drivers. Assuming that they are in working order, are they usable / decent?

http://www.irtsa.com/IMG/pdf/me1300re.pdf

Chaz
16-06-2015, 03:46 PM
Spindle Controller is http://www.sprint-electric.com/technical-support/400Man-iss-h.pdf

Sprint 1200.

Any thoughts on the quality of this? Unless its faulty, will aim to reuse this.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15573&stc=1

JohnHaine
16-06-2015, 04:01 PM
Hi Chaz,

Well, looks like a good buy with some nice extras! You don't need power to open the latch, there is a discrete hole somewhere round the back where you can insert a thin rod to activate it. I can't remember exactly where and not at home at the moment to look. I think I probably looked up the latch on the web to find out about it. If I remember I'll have a look at home this evening.

As this mill uses AC servos rather than steppers I suggest that you also join and post an enquiry at the Denford site http://www.denfordata.com. They have the wiring diagrams there and you should be able to get information on the servo drives. If the problem is the PC OS not booting I'd suggest the first place to start is there, and try to see if you can use the mill as-is, if necessary with a new PC.

Chaz
16-06-2015, 04:11 PM
Hi Chaz,

Well, looks like a good buy with some nice extras! You don't need power to open the latch, there is a discrete hole somewhere round the back where you can insert a thin rod to activate it. I can't remember exactly where and not at home at the moment to look. I think I probably looked up the latch on the web to find out about it. If I remember I'll have a look at home this evening.

As this mill uses AC servos rather than steppers I suggest that you also join and post an enquiry at the Denford site http://www.denfordata.com. They have the wiring diagrams there and you should be able to get information on the servo drives. If the problem is the PC OS not booting I'd suggest the first place to start is there, and try to see if you can use the mill as-is, if necessary with a new PC.

Thanks. That will be the first attempt. An issue I have is no 3 phase at home. Is it worth buying an inverter if the items might be changed later? From what I can tell from the wiring diagram (which I have), the only thing that runs from 3 phase is the coolant motor and perhaps some of the secondary voltages from a primary fed 3 phase transformer. I need to double check however.

I wasnt aware the PC was 'standard'. Ill research about how to sort, I have a number of older motherboards / ram / CPU that will be more than good enough for this. Also got the original CDs.

This uses the Fanuc system I think? So if I draw something and create the G Code, is this where the post processors come in?

Thanks for your response.

JohnHaine
16-06-2015, 04:26 PM
You could probably replace the transformer with a single phase one provided the overall rating is sensible. Or replace the whole PSU.

If it is a DC motor with the usual thyristor controller then that will probably run happily from single phase with some careful re-wiring. Actually checking the manual you referenced above it has a single phase mains connection anyway!

The coolant pump is more of a problem but its power is probably low and you can run 3 phase motors from single phase using some capacitor trickery - or use a cheap inverter - or replace the motor - or dispense with pumped coolant!

Chaz
16-06-2015, 04:30 PM
You could probably replace the transformer with a single phase one provided the overall rating is sensible. Or replace the whole PSU.

If it is a DC motor with the usual thyristor controller then that will probably run happily from single phase with some careful re-wiring. Actually checking the manual you referenced above it has a single phase mains connection anyway!

The coolant pump is more of a problem but its power is probably low and you can run 3 phase motors from single phase using some capacitor trickery - or use a cheap inverter - or replace the motor - or dispense with pumped coolant!

Yep, this might not paste well, but apart from coolant pump, nothing else uses 3 Phase.




Control Logic
Voltage
Current
Controller / Driver
Comments










X Axis
+/- 10V
220V

IRTA 1306



Y Axis
+/- 10V
220V
Fuse
IRTA 1306



Z Axis
+/- 10V
220V

IRTA 1306



Spindle

220V
10A
Sprint Electric 1200
DC Motor - 12 Amps?


ATC Motor

220V
3.15A




















Coolant

415V













Lighting

12V


50VA










Monitor

220V

Chaz
16-06-2015, 04:32 PM
This is the coolant pump. Id like to have this option if I can. Small power, so must be an option to sort this. Id like to upload the schematic (in pdf somewhere) and then link it for reference to anyone interested.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15574&stc=1

JAZZCNC
16-06-2015, 05:04 PM
Excellent buy Chaz.!!

If you can fix the PC/OS then it would be worth either replacing the Transformers or buying 415V converter and keeping original.

If you replace the Controller for Mach3 system then you will need analog controller as the servos are analog not Step & direction. Also if using the IP-A then you'll need to check the Servo's have differential encoders on them and Not single ended type. If so you'll have to replace them if possible or get some sort of line converter setup.!

Change transformer for drives etc and Small 0.75Kw VFD will sort the collant pump.

That wiring diagram is going to be priceless but you've still got plenty of head scratching coming your way. Lol

Chaz
16-06-2015, 05:10 PM
Excellent buy Chaz.!!

If you can fix the PC/OS then it would be worth either replacing the Transformers or buying 415V converter and keeping original.

If you replace the Controller for Mach3 system then you will need analog controller as the servos are analog not Step & direction. Also if using the IP-A then you'll need to check the Servo's have differential encoders on them and Not single ended type. If so you'll have to replace them if possible or get some sort of line converter setup.!

Change transformer for drives etc and Small 0.75Kw VFD will sort the collant pump.

That wiring diagram is going to be priceless but you've still got plenty of head scratching coming your way. Lol

Thanks, lots to do still. I need to take a good look on the weekend and see what I can understand. I want to get ordering and fixing but need to be careful not to piss away money.

How difficult to tell what encoders are on the servos? Would I see something from the wiring or drive or do I have to see the actual motor?

So if I do retrofit, the ideal controller here is the CS Labs IP-S ? Will this drive using the existing drives or do you think they will need to be replaced? Same question for the motors.

Thanks all!

JAZZCNC
16-06-2015, 06:23 PM
So if I do retrofit, the ideal controller here is the CS Labs IP-S ? Will this drive using the existing drives or do you think they will need to be replaced? Same question for the motors.

NO you need the IP-A because the servos are Analog servos and won't accept Step & Dir signals.

You will be able to re-use motors and drives. The motor manual should tell you type of encoders.! But Single ended will have 5 wires. Differential will have 8 or more wires.

Chaz
16-06-2015, 06:46 PM
NO you need the IP-A because the servos are Analog servos and won't accept Step & Dir signals.

You will be able to re-use motors and drives. The motor manual should tell you type of encoders.! But Single ended will have 5 wires. Differential will have 8 or more wires.

Sorry, yes, meant A.

Boyan Silyavski
16-06-2015, 07:22 PM
Great buy! Good luck!

I think that the pump can be wired for 2 phase 230V, as you could see on the plate

you may watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UcDM3hm0XM

i2i
16-06-2015, 08:26 PM
Chaz, if you need any help i can pm you my phone number for a chat about this machine. It's a pretty easy conversion to mach as everything bar the coolant pump will run on single phase and the coolant pump will run off an inverter in delta. I had the same machine here and ran it for ages before i went to a bigger mill.

ps. it looks like all the pneumatic controls are missing, unless they're in the base of the box.

JAZZCNC
16-06-2015, 08:57 PM
Chaz, if you need any help i can pm you my phone number for a chat about this machine.

Chaz don't mess around on here phone the man ASAP.!!

GEOFFREY
16-06-2015, 10:08 PM
Chaz don't mess around on here phone the man ASAP.!!

Great buy Chaz, well done. I have had several Easy/Star/Nova mills and thought the Denford quality very good. You can easily run the coolant pump from 230v single phase in delta using either an inverter or caps (caps are very easy, very cheap). I have never met or spoken to i2i, but have heard from a couple of sources that he has converted quite a lot of Denfords. Good luck with this project. G.

Chaz
17-06-2015, 10:37 AM
Chaz, if you need any help i can pm you my phone number for a chat about this machine. It's a pretty easy conversion to mach as everything bar the coolant pump will run on single phase and the coolant pump will run off an inverter in delta. I had the same machine here and ran it for ages before i went to a bigger mill.

ps. it looks like all the pneumatic controls are missing, unless they're in the base of the box.

Many thanks. Was out at a work event last night so didn't get time to look. Checked again this morning, pneumatics clearly missing. Does anyone have any pics of what I'm looking for that's missing? I'll ask the school too, then again, that might be why it was no longer being used. The metalworking teacher left 2 years ago and the machines have stood since.

With the retrofit to Mach, what controller did you use or suggest now if looking at this?

I'll pm for your contact details. Really hope the missing part is found or not too difficult / expensive to source. It's part of the ATC?

Lee Roberts
17-06-2015, 11:17 AM
Great find/buy, you lucky lucky man, looking forward to seeing this one unfold.

.Me

Chaz
17-06-2015, 11:27 AM
Great find/buy, you lucky lucky man, looking forward to seeing this one unfold.

.Me

Thanks. Not sure what this is worth but considering that the smaller (I think) Denford Triacs (none VMC / ATC / Servo) with a retrofit kit seem to sell for around 3500, I am please with what I have paid and got thus far.

A bit worried about the missing pneumatic bits. Other thing that concerns me, how the heck do I move it?

Lee Roberts
17-06-2015, 11:32 AM
Engine hoist or pump/pallet truck, tho you could just use steel bars and roll it on those into place, will need to of you to do it safely.

.Me

Chaz
17-06-2015, 11:36 AM
Engine hoist or pump/pallet truck, tho you could just use steel bars and roll it on those into place, will need to of you to do it safely.

.Me

Ye, thanks. I almost could not close the garage door and fortunately managed to squeeze is past the machine.

I can get to most of the bits now for fixing but it will need to be moved once working - its currently literally just in the middle of a double garage, not ideal.

Ill look at a hoist, but didnt see a lifting nut on the machine although the docs show this. Does it normally come with the machine or do you need to buy this separately?

For a pallet truck, would need to find a 'gap' under the machine to lift with or am I missing something?

Lee Roberts
17-06-2015, 11:41 AM
Have a look at this video my friend adam did on moving a mill...

https://youtu.be/qLD5_sm93zE

Yea I noticed your garage was far to clean and tidy, time for some rearranging and much needed workshop space ?

.Me

Chaz
17-06-2015, 11:42 AM
Have a look at this video my friend adam did on moving a mill...

https://youtu.be/qLD5_sm93zE

Yea I noticed your garage was far to clean and tidy, time for some rearranging and much needed workshop space ?

.Me

Thanks. Garage is a mess actually. I think the pics paint the wrong image ;p

Chaz
18-06-2015, 08:01 AM
OK, up early, cant sleep. Some of many questions:-

Current plan is to use the CS Labs IP-A controller. Gary from Zapp (and JazzCNC) seem happy that this should work based on the info shared. Let's assume it does but I may have a drive or motor faulty (I cant test them at present), what do I do then? These motors / controllers look to be too pricy to replace like for like. If I get something that uses Step / Direction, I need a different controller? Also, if I am looking at 4th axis for later, how do I plan to take that into account? I dont want to buy and IP-A and S model, the costs are too high and I dont know if you can use both together.

In terms of other considerations:-

Convert to single phase. The coolant motor can be wired for this, problem solved. It looks like someone has fit a newer 24V PSU as per the pic below. Will use this for 24V logic.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15586&stc=1

I need 110V, not for a lot though, if needed, can fit a transformer for that. There is also a 15Volt feed that comes from the 110V line to supply power for the Axis Drive Logic, I assume I need this for the retrofit?

The remaining 110V items are a mix of relays and solenoids, mainly for the pneumatics for the ATC. I am missing all the solenoids and the pneumatic ram for the left/right of the ATC. i2i (thanks very much for your time yesterday), may be able to provide the details / measurements for a replacement.

There is a board where the X Y and X axis connect, do these breakout anywhere that allows for wiring to the new controller?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15587&stc=1

There is then the terminal strip however this doesnt seem to cover all connections, mainly power (wire 31 / 32 etc)?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15588&stc=1

In terms of connections needed to make this work, missing anything below?

E Stop
X Y Z Axis input / feedback
X Y Z Limit Switches
Spindle input / feedback (forward and reverse)?
Spindle Enable?
Coolant stop / start
ATC controls, carousel up/down (relays), Drawbar solenoid, Door open / closed (is this used?)
Do I need air pressure / lube float / guard contact (not sure if thats the main door or something else)?
Feedrate / Spindle override?
X Y Z Overlimit (wired via estop)
Carousel switches (in, out, up, down, sensor)

Phew, anything else?

In terms of things to get:-

Controller
PSU for 110V potentially, this is currently having 400V as its input, so need to replace this with 220V input
Missing actuator for Carousel left / right
Missing Solenoids (all)
PC - have a number of older machines, will make something from the bits
Monitor, want to use the existing arm / base if possible, ideally touchscreen
Mach 4 (possible?) or Mach 3
Possible buttons for common things (Stop / Start etc)

Anything Ive missed?

Is there any easy way to test the X Y Z drives / motors considering I have no real way to power anything on the 110V rail and 15V Axis PSU?

Thanks in advance.

Chaz
18-06-2015, 08:11 AM
I assume this is what I need for the missing solenoids?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Position-5-Way-Air-Solenoid-Valve-Kit-4V110-06-1-8-PT-DC12V-Pilot-operated-/281665139189?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item41948cf1f5 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-8-Inch-Pneumatic-5Way-Electric-Air-Solenoid-Valve-110V-AC-BSP-Pressure-Valve-/251892248493?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aa5f2afad)

110V, 5 way? If not that specific item, something similar? It looks like the previous ones were DIN rail mounted from the pics showing what might have been there before ...

JAZZCNC
18-06-2015, 10:43 AM
Chaz i2i offered help I strongly advise you to take him up on his offer. You can't beat someone with actual experience of the machine your converting.
While Gary and Me have plenty of experience we don't have any on what's inside that exact machine. i2i Does and will know exactly what you can keep and what can be disguarded.
He's say's it's an easy enough conversion so I suspect he knows how to connect to any existing Motion controller built into the machine so you may not have to buy one at all.!!

Do your self a favor and speak to him before doing anything.!! (If you haven't all ready.)

Edit: Regards Moving it. !hink like an egyption.!!!. . . . They moved stones the size of your house with levers and logs.!!!

Chaz
18-06-2015, 11:20 AM
Chaz i2i offered help I strongly advise you to take him up on his offer. You can't beat someone with actual experience of the machine your converting.
While Gary and Me have plenty of experience we don't have any on what's inside that exact machine. i2i Does and will know exactly what you can keep and what can be disguarded.
He's say's it's an easy enough conversion so I suspect he knows how to connect to any existing Motion controller built into the machine so you may not have to buy one at all.!!

Do your self a favor and speak to him before doing anything.!! (If you haven't all ready.)

Edit: Regards Moving it. !hink like an egyption.!!!. . . . They moved stones the size of your house with levers and logs.!!!

I have, extensively. We had an hour long call yesterday.

His view was that the machine should be retrofitted and that the existing controller is a waste of time.

Where he does not have experience is in the area of the CS Labs IP-A / S systems. This is where you / Gary come into the picture :-)

Ill post some pics a bit later once I have drawn them of what I believe the connectivity might be between IP-A and the current wiring, but I am not sure on this and will ask for feedback / guidance.

Thanks

Chaz
18-06-2015, 11:44 AM
Does this look like I can feed with 220V instead of 3 Phase to get 110V?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15589&stc=1
I suspect so but ideal to get some confirmation - saves me needing to get a 220 / 110V transformer.

JAZZCNC
18-06-2015, 01:06 PM
Where he does not have experience is in the area of the CS Labs IP-A / S systems. This is where you / Gary come into the picture :-)

Ill post some pics a bit later once I have drawn them of what I believe the connectivity might be between IP-A and the current wiring, but I am not sure on this and will ask for feedback / guidance.

Ok understand. When I get time i'll take a look at your schematic and Drive manual to see if I can make sense of what you'll need.

My suggestion is to break the conversion down into small parts and not try to eat the whole elephant in one sitting. SO
First concentrate on getting it moving and whats required to do so. Then deal with sundries like ATC and spindle, coolant etc.

There's more work to the ATC than you probably realise because as well has pneumatics you'll need ATC M6 macro writing to suit the controller so it can control the pneumatics and position axis etc in sequence before it can be used correctly. There will be ATC M6 start macros floating around you can use but still 99% chance if you find one it will need modding to suit the IP-A or controller your using.

Coolant etc is easy stuff that is just switched ON/OFF using relays/contactors etc controlled thru outputs and can be added at any time.

Give me a ring if your unsure.!

Chaz
18-06-2015, 01:11 PM
Ok understand. When I get time i'll take a look at your schematic and Drive manual to see if I can make sense of what you'll need.

My suggestion is to break the conversion down into small parts and not try to eat the whole elephant in one sitting. SO
First concentrate on getting it moving and whats required to do so. Then deal with sundries like ATC and spindle, coolant etc.

There's more work to the ATC than you probably realise because as well has pneumatics you'll need ATC M6 macro writing to suit the controller so it can control the pneumatics and position axis etc in sequence before it can be used correctly. There will be ATC M6 start macros floating around you can use but still 99% chance if you find one it will need modding to suit the IP-A or controller your using.

Coolant etc is easy stuff that is just switched ON/OFF using relays/contactors etc controlled thru outputs and can be added at any time.

Give me a ring if your unsure.!

Thanks. i2i has indicated he has most / all of these macros.

At present, Im 99% sure the IP-A will work. Im checking wiring and it seems to match. 6 wires for the resolver, 1 ground, 3 for the motor.

Page 36 of the IP-A manual shows what's needed and seems to match page 32 of http://www.irtsa.com/IMG/pdf/me1300re.pdf

The pricing wont hold on the CS Labs, once they are sold out, the price goes back up. Willing to order one now, if its wrong, ill sell it on or try and exchange it later.

JAZZCNC
18-06-2015, 03:34 PM
Thanks. i2i has indicated he has most / all of these macros.

Yes he does but it will still need modding to work with IP-A. Cslabs controllers do alot of things differently to how Mach3 normally works and that's whats makes them good because they do it there way which works much better but it does mean they have dedicated outputs and params etc which will need to be included in the Macro.
Also if the Spindle as an encoder fitted and needs to index for tool holder alignment you'll need CSlabs Encoder module. It probably doesn't but best mentioned.


At present, Im 99% sure the IP-A will work. Im checking wiring and it seems to match. 6 wires for the resolver, 1 ground, 3 for the motor.
Page 36 of the IP-A manual shows what's needed and seems to match page 32 of http://www.irtsa.com/IMG/pdf/me1300re.pdf

Yes it will work. Resolver comes from Motor to Drive and as nothing to do with IP-A. Encoder output on Drive goes to Encoder Inputs on IP-A to close the loop between controller and Drive. At the moment you'll find it goes to the Controller that's fitted.

Chaz
18-06-2015, 03:45 PM
Yes he does but it will still need modding to work with IP-A. Cslabs controllers do alot of things differently to how Mach3 normally works and that's whats makes them good because they do it there way which works much better but it does mean they have dedicated outputs and params etc which will need to be included in the Macro.
Also if the Spindle as an encoder fitted and needs to index for tool holder alignment you'll need CSlabs Encoder module. It probably doesn't but best mentioned.



Yes it will work. Resolver comes from Motor to Drive and as nothing to do with IP-A. Encoder output on Drive goes to Encoder Inputs on IP-A to close the loop between controller and Drive. At the moment you'll find it goes to the Controller that's fitted.

Thanks, yes, sorry, that's what I meant. I ordered the controller about an hour ago to get it for the weekend on the basis that I was fairly certain it was correct.

Does this controller work with Mach 4?

Which of the modules is the encoder module? Are you able to link it please? Also, how would I know, what do I look for that might be able to indicate if its needed or not?

JAZZCNC
18-06-2015, 04:25 PM
Does this controller work with Mach 4?

Yes and No.
Yes there is a Plug-in for M4 but it's still in Testing phase and not yet 100% stable so I'd recommend you don't Bother.
The good thing is with M4 you can run it along side M3 without interfering with each other so testing M4 is easy if you want to try it and won't wreck your normal working M3 setup.


Which of the modules is the encoder module? Are you able to link it please? Also, how would I know, what do I look for that might be able to indicate if its needed or not?

I've had a quick look at schematic and it's a DC spindle with no sign of encoder so wouldn't worry about it.

Gary
18-06-2015, 04:28 PM
Yes there is a plugging already available for mach 4.
This is the link the encoder module.
http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/cnc-motion-controllers-18/motion-controllers-from-cs-labs/csmio-enc-threading-module-for-csmio-ip-s-a.html
however, you would typically fit a servo to the spindle to get the best from it for tapping.
If the existing spindle is a high speed spindle, it is unlikely you will be able to tap with it, due to the lack of torque at the lower speeds.


Thanks, yes, sorry, that's what I meant. I ordered the controller about an hour ago to get it for the weekend on the basis that I was fairly certain it was correct.

Does this controller work with Mach 4?

Which of the modules is the encoder module? Are you able to link it please? Also, how would I know, what do I look for that might be able to indicate if its needed or not?

Chaz
18-06-2015, 04:34 PM
Yes and No.
Yes there is a Plug-in for M4 but it's still in Testing phase and not yet 100% stable so I'd recommend you don't Bother.
The good thing is with M4 you can run it along side M3 without interfering with each other so testing M4 is easy if you want to try it and won't wreck your normal working M3 setup.



I've had a quick look at schematic and it's a DC spindle with no sign of encoder so wouldn't worry about it.


Yes there is a plugging already available for mach 4.
This is the link the encoder module.
http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/cnc-motion-controllers-18/motion-controllers-from-cs-labs/csmio-enc-threading-module-for-csmio-ip-s-a.html
however, you would typically fit a servo to the spindle to get the best from it for tapping.
If the existing spindle is a high speed spindle, it is unlikely you will be able to tap with it, due to the lack of torque at the lower speeds.

Thanks both.

Ive installed Mach 3 and 4 to look around. Previously I used Planet CNC which I became familiar with.

Can I test both of these before buying a license (demo period or similar)?

In terms of 4th axis, how difficult, using this IP-A controller, would it be to get the older electronics for a 4th axis? Not sure if its possible to run different controllers or not (irrespective of cost)?

m_c
18-06-2015, 06:47 PM
Yes, you can use Mach3 and 4 in Demo mode. Mach3 has a few features disabled (run from here is main one, but there are a couple others I've forgotten) and has a limit on the number of lines of G-code it'll run. Mach 4 just stops working after a random amount of time and needs restarted.
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Regarding testing the servos, find the two wires to the drives that provided the +/-10V input, power up the drives, and using a 1.5V battery in series with about a 100ohm resistor (you can do it without the resistor, but it provides some protection if you happen to try connecting to the wrong wires/pins) connect it across the +/-10V input wires, then try reversing the connection. The servos should turn reasonably slowly in both directions, which lets you know the servos and drives are working.
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Another option for a Controller, would be a Dynomotion KFlop + Kanalog combo (along with possibly a Konnect to gain more IO). The Kanalog gives you differential encoder inputs along with analogue inputs and outputs, while still retaining the option to use step/dir. However it is a more complicated controller to setup, and you have order direct from over the pond.
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Personally, before you commit to buying a controller, I'd suggest making up a list (I make a spreadsheet) of all the inputs and outputs you're going to need, and what type of input/output i.e. analogue/digital/voltage, along with anything you may like to add in the future.
If you post the list up here, I'm sure people on here will quite happily check it over. Going from your initial list, things like limit switches don't need connected to the controller. Connect them up via the E-stop circuit, with a manual override push switch to bypass them if you do run into them. When you first start, it seems like a good idea to monitor every single switch, but in reality/use, you soon realise it's not needed.
Actually having scanned over your list again, I suspect the top limit switches should actually be the homing switches/sensors, as you also mention over limit switches further down.

Chaz
18-06-2015, 07:03 PM
Yes, you can use Mach3 and 4 in Demo mode. Mach3 has a few features disabled (run from here is main one, but there are a couple others I've forgotten) and has a limit on the number of lines of G-code it'll run. Mach 4 just stops working after a random amount of time and needs restarted.
.
Regarding testing the servos, find the two wires to the drives that provided the +/-10V input, power up the drives, and using a 1.5V battery in series with about a 100ohm resistor (you can do it without the resistor, but it provides some protection if you happen to try connecting to the wrong wires/pins) connect it across the +/-10V input wires, then try reversing the connection. The servos should turn reasonably slowly in both directions, which lets you know the servos and drives are working.
.
Another option for a Controller, would be a Dynomotion KFlop + Kanalog combo (along with possibly a Konnect to gain more IO). The Kanalog gives you differential encoder inputs along with analogue inputs and outputs, while still retaining the option to use step/dir. However it is a more complicated controller to setup, and you have order direct from over the pond.
.
Personally, before you commit to buying a controller, I'd suggest making up a list (I make a spreadsheet) of all the inputs and outputs you're going to need, and what type of input/output i.e. analogue/digital/voltage, along with anything you may like to add in the future.
If you post the list up here, I'm sure people on here will quite happily check it over. Going from your initial list, things like limit switches don't need connected to the controller. Connect them up via the E-stop circuit, with a manual override push switch to bypass them if you do run into them. When you first start, it seems like a good idea to monitor every single switch, but in reality/use, you soon realise it's not needed.
Actually having scanned over your list again, I suspect the top limit switches should actually be the homing switches/sensors, as you also mention over limit switches further down.

Thanks. Ive bought the CSLabs IP-A already. It should arrive tomorrow and hopefully I can get some movement this weekend. Theoretically I could get a fair bit of progress unless I run into some issues. The ATC needs a few parts but if I can get basic movement, Ill be OK with that. There are 2 sets of switches from what I can see on the drawing, one set is absolute limit switches and then the others are Datum / Zero. On a 3D printer the absolute limit ones would have been referred to as the + limits and - limit is normally the Zero position.

Also agree, dont need a lot connected to get basic movement and will wire in the bits that I need, as I need it.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 12:02 AM
OK, so some progress.

Completed:-

Converted most of the power system to single phase. Need to still sort out the coolant pump however.
Removed the old PC to make space for the CS Labs controller.
Looked at a lot of the wiring, for a long time.
Worked out that from the 3 Axis connectors that used to go to the old PC, I can basically input and output to that 15 Way D sub connector to get encoder signals out and speed reference in as well as satisfying some of the logic requirements.
Worked out where the Spindle Drive 0-10V can be connected to on the standard block. Some of the logic that enables the drive I am not sure about yet.

Fairly happy with the progress although so much to look at and find on other sheets / cross reference, takes ages.

All going to plan, I should be able to move all drives and start the spindle tomorrow unless there is a unit faulty or something goes wrong (hope not).

Will use a laptop at first to setup the CS Labs unit and get going until I can build a PC into the cabinet. Not sure about space as the CSLabs unit takes a fair whack of space, might make another plan.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 12:15 AM
Fun fun fun ...

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15598&stc=1

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15599&stc=1

m_c
20-06-2015, 12:38 AM
Looks like you're making reasonable progress.
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One thing I meant to mention in my last post, is are you sure the coolant pump will run on single phase? Just because it's marked to work on 240V, it will most likely be for 3 phase 240V.
AC induction motors that run from single phase require a start or run capacitor, whereas 3 phase don't, as well as having different internal coil wiring, so it's highly unlikely the same motor will run from both 3 phase and single phase.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 12:42 AM
Looks like you're making reasonable progress.
.
One thing I meant to mention in my last post, is are you sure the coolant pump will run on single phase? Just because it's marked to work on 240V, it will most likely be for 3 phase 240V.
AC induction motors that run from single phase require a start or run capacitor, whereas 3 phase don't, as well as having different internal coil wiring, so it's highly unlikely the same motor will run from both 3 phase and single phase.

Oh, not sure actually. Will leave it for now, will try it later and see. Else a small VFD might be required.

i2i
20-06-2015, 05:15 AM
For the coolant pump you will need to reset the connections in the motor input to delta and run it from a single phase 240v to 3 phase 220v inverter, as it will be set to star to run of 3 phase 380 - 415v atm.

The spindle drive has a connector block 1-7, 1 is the 10v supply you can leave this alone, 2 (min) is common for the 0-10v input, 3 (i/p) is the 0-10v input to control the speed. So pins 2 and 3 are the 0-10v input for the sprint board.

PS. these connections have a high voltage present on them so do not touch them, or use a grounded 0-10v signal as this will damage the sprint board. You must use a dc isolated 0-10v signal to run this drive.

Connections 5 and 7 are the run command and need to be connected together to run the drive, this is done by energising the SGR (spindle go relay). All other connections can be left alone.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 10:24 AM
For the coolant pump you will need to reset the connections in the motor input to delta and run it from a single phase 240v to 3 phase 220v inverter, as it will be set to star to run of 3 phase 380 - 415v atm.

The spindle drive has a connector block 1-7, 1 is the 10v supply you can leave this alone, 2 (min) is common for the 0-10v input, 3 (i/p) is the 0-10v input to control the speed. So pins 2 and 3 are the 0-10v input for the sprint board.

PS. these connections have a high voltage present on them so do not touch them, or use a grounded 0-10v signal as this will damage the sprint board. You must use a dc isolated 0-10v signal to run this drive.

Connections 5 and 7 are the run command and need to be connected together to run the drive, this is done by energising the SGR (spindle go relay). All other connections can be left alone.

Thanks. How do I do this isolation?

The CS Labs mentions this, is this the same thing?

"Another important assumption was simplicity of installation. CSMIO/IP-A does not require any external electronics for proper operation. Inputs/outputs signals are inside optically isolated, filtered, protected against short circuit, overheating etc. Of course, all I/O signals are adjusted to industry standard 24V. The device is enclosed in a compact cover, mounted on a DIN-rail, what makes that mechanical and electronic installation in a control cabinet takes less time and is even simpler. "

Chaz
20-06-2015, 10:28 AM
Thanks. How do I do this isolation?

The CS Labs mentions this, is this the same thing?

"Another important assumption was simplicity of installation. CSMIO/IP-A does not require any external electronics for proper operation. Inputs/outputs signals are inside optically isolated, filtered, protected against short circuit, overheating etc. Of course, all I/O signals are adjusted to industry standard 24V. The device is enclosed in a compact cover, mounted on a DIN-rail, what makes that mechanical and electronic installation in a control cabinet takes less time and is even simpler. "

Mmmm, that's for the signals, not power, is it?

Chaz
20-06-2015, 10:34 AM
For the coolant pump you will need to reset the connections in the motor input to delta and run it from a single phase 240v to 3 phase 220v inverter, as it will be set to star to run of 3 phase 380 - 415v atm.

The spindle drive has a connector block 1-7, 1 is the 10v supply you can leave this alone, 2 (min) is common for the 0-10v input, 3 (i/p) is the 0-10v input to control the speed. So pins 2 and 3 are the 0-10v input for the sprint board.

PS. these connections have a high voltage present on them so do not touch them, or use a grounded 0-10v signal as this will damage the sprint board. You must use a dc isolated 0-10v signal to run this drive.

Connections 5 and 7 are the run command and need to be connected together to run the drive, this is done by energising the SGR (spindle go relay). All other connections can be left alone.

Are the connections not 4 and 5 for enable? I can see relay SFR and GR there needed to enable. Connection 7 on mine looks like one of the tacho connections.

i2i
20-06-2015, 01:26 PM
Are the connections not 4 and 5 for enable? I can see relay SFR and GR there needed to enable. Connection 7 on mine looks like one of the tacho connections.Either way can be used, 4 and 5 or 5 and 7 depends on the application. When the tacho option is used 6 and 7 are used for this and 4 and 5 are used for the spindle run, if yours is wired that way use 4 and 5. The guard relay will be in the circuit to limit the operation of the spindle if the cover is up, but the sgr would still be the relay that connects 4 and 5 on the sprint board.

PS. sfr may have replaced sgr.....edit...... Looking at the other photos sfr has replaced sgr, and common practice with denford machines is to control the relay on the ground side. To the left of the sfr is the srr, this reverses the spindle by changing the polarity to the motor.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 03:12 PM
Either way can be used, 4 and 5 or 5 and 7 depends on the application. When the tacho option is used 6 and 7 are used for this and 4 and 5 are used for the spindle run, if yours is wired that way use 4 and 5. The guard relay will be in the circuit to limit the operation of the spindle if the cover is up, but the sgr would still be the relay that connects 4 and 5 on the sprint board.

PS. sfr may have replaced sgr.....edit...... Looking at the other photos sfr has replaced sgr, and common practice with denford machines is to control the relay on the ground side. To the left of the sfr is the srr, this reverses the spindle by changing the polarity to the motor.

Thanks.

A bit stuck at the moment. Have wired in the Y encoder but a bit of confusion about whats needed next. I know I need 0V and 10V Ref but a bit confusing as I also have an enable option. Going to power up now and see if I can get something moving, still need to config the CS Labs and install Mach, so still a bit to go yet I think before I can get anything moving.

I managed to get 110V, need to see whats holding out the main contactor now, must be an E stop or similar.

JAZZCNC
20-06-2015, 03:45 PM
Thanks.A bit stuck at the moment. Have wired in the Y encoder but a bit of confusion about whats needed next. I know I need 0V and 10V Ref but a bit confusing as I also have an enable option.

Connect the enable on drive to an output on IP-A and set the Enable 1-6 Output in Mach3 to port10 pin(which ever used). You can connect all drives to same pin to save outputs if you like.!
This will enable the drives when Mach is Reset and disable when Mach isn't.

If you want an extra layer of safety then run this signal thru your E-stop relay. So Enable can only happen if E-stop not pressed. This way the Axis won't be enabled even of Mach is reset( Which it shouldn't if E-stop is done correctly)

Chaz
20-06-2015, 04:27 PM
Connect the enable on drive to an output on IP-A and set the Enable 1-6 Output in Mach3 to port10 pin(which ever used). You can connect all drives to same pin to save outputs if you like.!
This will enable the drives when Mach is Reset and disable when Mach isn't.

If you want an extra layer of safety then run this signal thru your E-stop relay. So Enable can only happen if E-stop not pressed. This way the Axis won't be enabled even of Mach is reset( Which it shouldn't if E-stop is done correctly)

So I need to simply bridge between terminal 14 and 15 of the IRTA Drive. What function do I use on the CS Labs unit? Analog Out? Does this push out a voltage or does it simply close a circuit and work as a softswitch?

If I look at the analog out options, I have Analog output 0 (0-10V on pin 7) and Analog output 1 (0-10V on pin 8). I would have thought I needed to use the digital outputs? Sorry, a little bit confused, just want to 'make' a connection between 2 points.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 04:46 PM
Actually, from the 15 pin breakout, i dont have a wire to allow a bridge. Something else is holding out the DER relay, need to find that.

This could be changed later but needs rewiring.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 05:06 PM
OK, DER Relay working, it was the door latch holding it out.

Drives enabled, no movement yet. Not sure how to configure anything related to steps or similar, do I need to with a servo?

Chaz
20-06-2015, 05:35 PM
OK, Y moves when I push in the DER manually. Not sure why - I dont know if the machine is trying to home or something else. If I restart Mach 3, does it 'forget' what it was told before?

Glad ive got movement, not sure whats impacting DER relay yet. It was the door latch, thats sorted, something else is now holding it out. Looking to try and reverse the direction, where is the 'jog wheel' in Mach 3? Ive seen a pic of one, is it a plugin?

i2i
20-06-2015, 05:36 PM
press tab on the keyboard

Chaz
20-06-2015, 05:37 PM
press tab on the keyboard

Thanks, had seen that on a forum but it did nothing :-(

Checking again. So much easier to understand with Step / Direction ....

i2i
20-06-2015, 05:37 PM
you may be on the limits for any of the three axis, that would keep the estop off.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 05:39 PM
you may be on the limits for any of the three axis, that would keep the estop off.

I think so too. Im trying to move it to the centre to be sure Im not at a limit switch but I cant get it to go Y +, only Y -.

Clive S
20-06-2015, 05:41 PM
I am finding this saga very interesting.:applause: Keep up the good work .. Clive

Chaz
20-06-2015, 05:45 PM
I am finding this saga very interesting.:applause: Keep up the good work .. Clive

LOL, once its sorted, its easy. Still a lot of stuff to understand but getting there. Movement is an achievement, even if I cant fully control it yet ;p

Now, need to understand all the things that trigger DER relay and then how to reverse direction on these 'analog' servos.

JAZZCNC
20-06-2015, 05:53 PM
OK, Y moves when I push in the DER manually. Not sure why - I dont know if the machine is trying to home or something else. If I restart Mach 3, does it 'forget' what it was told before?

If it's moving on it's own without being commanded then Reverse the Encoder direction in the CSlabs plug-in.

i2i
20-06-2015, 05:54 PM
with the cover, unscrew the tab that locks into the guard solenoid from the cover and leave it in the guard solenoid.

JAZZCNC
20-06-2015, 05:55 PM
Chaz to many over lapping questions it's going to get confusing and dangerous if not careful.!!

Regards the Outputs it's Digital output you need not analog.
Analog is only for controling devices that need 0-10V Also don't confuse the Motor Analog outputs which +/- 10V with 0-10V.!! . .. Very easy done.

Regards motor tuning and setup then yes you still need to set this up. You'll need to know the Encoder resolution, any gearing ratio and the Pitch of the ballscrews to workout the correct steps Per unit in Motor tuning.

Chaz
20-06-2015, 05:59 PM
Chaz to many over lapping questions it's going to get confusing and dangerous if not careful.!!

Regards the Outputs it's Digital output you need not analog.
Analog is only for controling devices that need 0-10V Also don't confuse the Motor Analog outputs which +/- 10V with 0-10V.!! . .. Very easy done.

Regards motor tuning and setup then yes you still need to set this up. You'll need to know the Encoder resolution, any gearing ratio and the Pitch of the ballscrews to workout the correct steps Per unit in Motor tuning.

Thanks, as suspected.

I think I have the encoder details from the manual for the drives but not the rest, will need to try and work it out somehow. Are these values entered into Mach 3 or the CS Labs unit?

Does anyone know where terminal 140 comes from that feeds the DER? 60, which is the other side of the coil (0V) is common.

JAZZCNC
20-06-2015, 06:09 PM
Thanks, as suspected.

I think I have the encoder details from the manual for the drives but not the rest, will need to try and work it out somehow. Are these values entered into Mach 3 or the CS Labs unit?

It's entered into Mach3 Motor tuning in the Steps per setup. Your encoder probably be 1024ppr and quadrature so 1024x4,
So steps per Calc will be 4096 x (Any Ratio) / (Pitch) . . . . . .Ie 4096 x 2 (2:1 ratio) / 2.5mm pitch = 3276.8 Steps per Unit

Also you'll probably need tune the Position/ Vff PID settings in the Controller for best performance. Provided the Velocity PID settings are setup correctly in the Drives them selfs then the Cslabs Auto PID tuning will most likely take care of this for you. It's in the Plug-in Config.!!

ADVISE YOU RTFM BEFORE doing this.!!!

Chaz
20-06-2015, 06:27 PM
OK, so solved the 140 feed to the DER. It comes from the X axis wiring and is not part of the Y or Z. To enable, this pin needs to be taken to 0V..

Chaz
20-06-2015, 07:19 PM
Can I double check something, for the 0-10V Analog input, this shows using 1 and 14 for the first axis. On the pic below, the left hand side is the wiring of the drivers.

Is VRef- 0Volt or something else?
I assume VRef+ is the 'up to 10V'?

Are my red lines below correct to show how they should join?



http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15600&stc=1

JAZZCNC
20-06-2015, 07:38 PM
Can I double check something, for the 0-10V Analog input, this shows using 1 and 14 for the first axis. On the pic below, the left hand side is the wiring of the drivers.

Ok well kind of right but your needing ANALOG +/-10V OUTPUTS for the Channel(axis) your using.! . . . It's not 0-10V ANALOG INPUTS they are very different things.!!

I realise you probably know this but it's these little details and wrong INFO back to us here that can get confusing and you in BIG trouble if we do and your letting out Magic smoke.!

Vref - = Negative Voltage ie: -5v = right direction at half Motor rpm
Vref + = Positive Voltage ie: +5v = Left direction at half Motor Rpm

Manual will show you which pins are for Negatve and Positive for Each Channel(axis). Careful you don't Mixup the GND because the Channel GND's are different to Analog input GND's on same connector.!

Chaz
20-06-2015, 10:20 PM
OK, have some success. Long story ...... dont trust things till you have opened the connector and verified each pin.

JAZZCNC
20-06-2015, 10:34 PM
OK, have some success. Long story ...... dont trust things till you have opened the connector and verified each pin.

Argh the old pin shuffle gotcha trick.!! . . . Got me too many times. My prefered way of converting is to rip the guts out and start again. It's often quicker than chasing dodgy wiring and connectors.!

fidia
20-06-2015, 11:52 PM
Really liking the progress on this. Great job. If you decide to sell it make sure there are crowd control barriers in place.

I have 2 Triac VMC's and a Cyclone and all are great machines. i2i is the man if you have any questions on the Triac. Its quite possible he may have designed them lol.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1qcIDC9RjF1bokwPgJQWnA

Chaz
21-06-2015, 11:15 AM
Really liking the progress on this. Great job. If you decide to sell it make sure there are crowd control barriers in place.

I have 2 Triac VMC's and a Cyclone and all are great machines. i2i is the man if you have any questions on the Triac. Its quite possible he may have designed them lol.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1qcIDC9RjF1bokwPgJQWnA

Thanks. Those your vids? Watched a few of them before and after buying my Triac.

Chaz
21-06-2015, 04:30 PM
So, had movement last night. Now I have a machine determined to go max X Y Z + in all directions and I cant get it to come back from that. I cant engage soft limits on Mach 3, says I am no longer able to use that as I have gone past the extreme limits. If I hold in the axis override button on the Denford, it just keeps going more + in all directions. When I try and jog to -, eventually I get a ePid fault.

Argh.

Chaz
21-06-2015, 04:32 PM
Sorry, its gone to - on all directions. Trying to move to +. For reference, I am not using any limits wired to the CSLabs yet, its still using wired through its normal E Stop etc for max overlimit etc.

JAZZCNC
21-06-2015, 04:56 PM
So, had movement last night. Now I have a machine determined to go max X Y Z + in all directions and I cant get it to come back from that. I cant engage soft limits on Mach 3, says I am no longer able to use that as I have gone past the extreme limits. If I hold in the axis override button on the Denford, it just keeps going more + in all directions. When I try and jog to -, eventually I get a ePid fault.

This is why you should just concentrate on one area at a time and not try to get everything working in one go. E-stop is all you need at first for safety until you have the machine moving correctly and under full control.
Then you can start introducing Limits, Homes etc.

Turn off Mach softlimits for now until you have it working correctly. The messages will be because you probably haven't homed but you have enabled the Home inputs so Mach doesn't reset Machine coordinates to Zero when you push Ref all like it does when they are Not enabled.
Now The Machine coordinates will only be reset to Zero when mach see's the input assigned to that Axis change. With you jogging around etc you will now be well outside Soft limits hence the message.

Chaz
21-06-2015, 04:58 PM
This is why you should just concentrate on one area at a time and not try to get everything working in one go. E-stop is all you need at first for safety until you have the machine moving correctly and under full control.
Then you can start introducing Limits, Homes etc.

Turn off Mach softlimits for now until you have it working correctly. The messages will be because you probably haven't homed but you have enabled the Home inputs so Mach doesn't reset Machine coordinates to Zero when you push Ref all like it does when they are Not enabled.
Now The Machine coordinates will only be reset to Zero when mach see's the input assigned to that Axis change. With you jogging around etc you will now be well outside Soft limits hence the message.

Thanks. I had X and Y working ok last night. Not sure what I did since but double checking all again.

JAZZCNC
21-06-2015, 05:31 PM
Did you use the PID tuner.? If not then chances are your EPid fault is because of following error.!

Chaz
21-06-2015, 05:54 PM
Did you use the PID tuner.? If not then chances are your EPid fault is because of following error.!

Nope, not done that yet.

So the problem seems to be that it tried to home and went past the limits. I cant get it back from that now cos it thinks its hitting them on the way back. Ideally I can move the servos manually by hand to reset but difficult to get to them.

I also need to check the steps. I believe its on 1024 ppr but difficult to confirm this as I need a tool to login on the drive to check. Its a 5mm leadscrew all round from what I can tell. The ratio amount and the quadrature value, how would I know these?

Also, what's the easiest way to reverse the direction of the motors?

Chaz
21-06-2015, 07:11 PM
OK, X and Y are working, inverse direction but I can do basic G Code. The measurement however is 3 times too much. Have changed the steps / mm value in Mach3 but no difference. Its doing a 60mm square instead of a 20mm.

Something not right with Z when I connected it back up.

Chaz
21-06-2015, 09:29 PM
OK, I hadnt saved the steps setting. Sorted now, very close to spot on but still having issues when I connect Z. Without Z, the machine will work fine even though + - are reversed (according to the stickers on the mill). I tried to get Z to PID tune but its not happy and the mill starts to move the other axis without me asking. Odd. Not sure if I am getting some cross talk on the wires, ive checked all the wires a few times.

So, this might not look like much, but i can draw with some gcode.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15603&stc=1

i2i
21-06-2015, 11:34 PM
the arrows are showing table movement, and as we all know it's the tool movement we look at.

Chaz
22-06-2015, 08:40 AM
the arrows are showing table movement, and as we all know it's the tool movement we look at.

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I am used to 3D printers and my own previous mill where the head moves, not the table.

Chaz
22-06-2015, 08:46 AM
Can someone please explain this to me?

Look at the image below, this is the wiring diagram and shows that the 24 PSU (down the bottom) is fed from 110V, correct?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15606&stc=1


Then here is a photo of the same 24V PSU, take a note of the 'jumper' on the bottom right. What is this set to take as AC input voltage, 220 or 110V?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15607&stc=1

So, if there is a jumper, its 110V, if not 220V?

Clive S
22-06-2015, 09:07 AM
The way I read it is if you want to run the tx on 110V then leave the link in. leave the link out if you require it to be run on 240V.
Have you measured the o/p voltage? ..Clive

Chaz
22-06-2015, 09:13 AM
The way I read it is if you want to run the tx on 110V then leave the link in. leave the link out if you require it to be run on 240V.
Have you measured the o/p voltage? ..Clive

That's my understanding too. There is no jumper, therefore its set to 220V.

I wired it directly last night as I wanted the CS Labs controller to stay powered, even when the 110V drops out for whatever reason. So I connected it to 220V and a bit later, the PSU greeted me with some smoke. I should have measured the voltage prior to connecting up but there is no jumper, I checked this, which means 220V input is OK.

Clearly not .... Maybe both of us have the wrong way of thinking of this link / jumper. Just to confirm, that pic was taken before anything was changed and shows all wiring as it was. There is no jumper / bridge. I checked the unit again this morning before coming to work.

Chaz
22-06-2015, 09:18 AM
There must be a jumper in there somewhere. Ill triple check tonight. If you look at the manual too, it confirms what we both believe to be correct. I see no jumper ....

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15608&stc=1

m_c
22-06-2015, 10:59 AM
It's hard to tell due to the clear plastic cover, but I'd say there's a little metal bar going up and over the plastic divider between the terminals.

Clive S
22-06-2015, 11:32 AM
Yes I was going to say put an ohm meter across the two terminals and see if it is in fact a dead short.

Chaz
22-06-2015, 11:49 AM
Yep, will do that. All hindsight now, need a new PSU.

JAZZCNC
22-06-2015, 02:14 PM
I also need to check the steps. I believe its on 1024 ppr but difficult to confirm this as I need a tool to login on the drive to check. Its a 5mm leadscrew all round from what I can tell. The ratio amount and the quadrature value, how would I know these?

Sorry wasn't ignoring you I went out last night.!
Ok well looking at the manual the Motors use Resolvers rather than Encoders and the Drives simulate encoder output so resolution will depend on how the drives are set.
The Ratio is simply if there are any pulleys or gearbox's involved. If not then ignore.



Also, what's the easiest way to reverse the direction of the motors?

Goto Homing and Limits and Click reversed.

Chaz
22-06-2015, 02:15 PM
Sorry wasn't ignoring you I went out last night.!
Ok well looking at the manual the Motors use Resolvers rather than Encoders and the Drives simulate encoder output so resolution will depend on how the drives are set.
The Ratio is simply if there are any pulleys or gearbox's involved. If not then ignore.




Goto Homing and Limits and Click reversed.

Thanks, appreciate you have more to do than just to help me (and others) ;p

Chaz
22-06-2015, 02:21 PM
JazzCNC, what process do you use to PID tune the motors?

Do you use the 'auto tune' feature in the plugin config?

JAZZCNC
22-06-2015, 02:24 PM
I tried to get Z to PID tune but its not happy and the mill starts to move the other axis without me asking. Odd. Not sure if I am getting some cross talk on the wires, ive checked all the wires a few times.

Have you tried Reversing the Encoder signal in the Plug-in.? This would cause false movement of Z axis but not sure it would affect others but possible so worth trying.!

Chaz
22-06-2015, 02:27 PM
Have you tried Reversing the Encoder signal in the Plug-in.? This would cause false movement of Z axis but not sure it would affect others but possible so worth trying.!

Ill try again this week. I need a new 24V PSU first. So both X and Y are reversed, otherwise they do not respond properly. Might be that Z needs to be set to normal, perhaps an assumption that they would all be the same.

JAZZCNC
22-06-2015, 02:36 PM
JazzCNC, what process do you use to PID tune the motors?

Do you use the 'auto tune' feature in the plugin config?

In all honesty I've very little experience with IP-A or Analog drives or motors with Resolvers which will make a difference to PID setup.
My motors are Brushed DC with Tacho's and Real Encoders which makes a difference to your setup. My drives PID was set up already for the Velocity/Current and the IP-A Autotune did a good Job with position so little to no tweaking required.

I would think that because your drives where already setup then you'll be in a similar position with Velocity/Current setup in the drive so using the Auto tune in IP-A would get you close. Then it's just a case of playing with IP-A PID settings to get nice stable smooth movement.

JAZZCNC
22-06-2015, 02:39 PM
Ill try again this week. I need a new 24V PSU first. So both X and Y are reversed, otherwise they do not respond properly. Might be that Z needs to be set to normal, perhaps an assumption that they would all be the same.

Erm fatal.!!. . . Assume Nothing.!! . . . But yes I'd have done the same. . Lol

Chaz
22-06-2015, 02:45 PM
In all honesty I've very little experience with IP-A or Analog drives or motors with Resolvers which will make a difference to PID setup.
My motors are Brushed DC with Tacho's and Real Encoders which makes a difference to your setup. My drives PID was set up already for the Velocity/Current and the IP-A Autotune did a good Job with position so little to no tweaking required.

I would think that because your drives where already setup then you'll be in a similar position with Velocity/Current setup in the drive so using the Auto tune in IP-A would get you close. Then it's just a case of playing with IP-A PID settings to get nice stable smooth movement.

Thanks. Considering the mill was working before, the drives should be setup correctly. The 'output' from the drive is as if it was an encoder. The drive takes the resolver input and converts it to encoder type for the controller.

I have a question too around cabling whilst I try and find out what could cause any funny issues.

I am using Cat 5 cable for the encoder and ref signals. So, its shielded, its 8 core + the outer core.

The drawings I have show that the -10 to +10V run in their own shield. Currently I am sharing this common cable for - 10 to + 10 plus the encoder feedback. Is this a problem? I dont mind splitting them but dont want to buy cable I dont need.

Thanks

JAZZCNC
22-06-2015, 02:55 PM
Thanks. Considering the mill was working before, the drives should be setup correctly. The 'output' from the drive is as if it was an encoder. The drive takes the resolver input and converts it to encoder type for the controller.

Yes agreed but you'll still need to tune the Controller for position so use the IP-A Autotune and tweak settings if motors are twitchy etc..


I have a question too around cabling whilst I try and find out what could cause any funny issues.

I am using Cat 5 cable for the encoder and ref signals. So, its shielded, its 8 core + the outer core.

The drawings I have show that the -10 to +10V run in their own shield. Currently I am sharing this common cable for - 10 to + 10 plus the encoder feedback. Is this a problem? I dont mind splitting them but dont want to buy cable I dont need.

Thanks

Yes I'd separate them.

Also make sure your Grounding is correct and all Shields going to Star Ground point.!

Chaz
22-06-2015, 05:13 PM
Yes agreed but you'll still need to tune the Controller for position so use the IP-A Autotune and tweak settings if motors are twitchy etc..



Yes I'd separate them.

Also make sure your Grounding is correct and all Shields going to Star Ground point.!

Not using 3 phase, I know that some will consider Neutral as Earth in single phase (country specific), is that the case here?

Clive S
22-06-2015, 05:38 PM
Neutral is not earth In the UK the earth is bonded to the neutral in most cases but not always.
The ground in your case is a central point where all the screens and ground are connected together in one place (star point) and that point in connected to the general earth connection. This is to try and stop ground loops. ..Clive

Chaz
22-06-2015, 05:51 PM
Neutral is not earth In the UK the earth is bonded to the neutral in most cases but not always.
The ground in your case is a central point where all the screens and ground are connected together in one place (star point) and that point in connected to the general earth connection. This is to try and stop ground loops. ..Clive

Ah, sorry, mistook 'star point' as the star of a 3 phase system which is commonly earthed. Thanks, understood what you explained.

Out of interest, my drawings show the encoder shield only being attached on side and from speaking to a colleague this morning, that seems common practice (not to earth both sides of a shield). Would that be correct based on the collective experience here?

Clive S
22-06-2015, 06:51 PM
Out of interest, my drawings show the encoder shield only being attached on side and from speaking to a colleague this morning, that seems common practice (not to earth both sides of a shield). Would that be correct based on the collective experience here Yes that would be correct. Clive

GEOFFREY
22-06-2015, 07:08 PM
Been away for the past week (my Golden wedding aniversary celebrations?), so sorry to be harping back to one of the non technical points. If your motor is marked as 230v 3 ph you can almost certainly run that coolant pump on single phase. Set the motor block connecters to Delta and either use a vfd or trick the motor to run in quasi 3 phase using a couple of caps. I have been running 3ph motors on 230v single phase for over 20 years and have never had any problems. It may be neccessary to use a separate switched cap for starting. If in any boubt, cap values etc. you can PM me. Your project is looking great. Well done. G.

Chaz
22-06-2015, 07:13 PM
Been away for the past week (my Golden wedding aniversary celebrations?), so sorry to be harping back to one of the non technical points. If your motor is marked as 230v 3 ph you can almost certainly run that coolant pump on single phase. Set the motor block connecters to Delta and either use a vfd or trick the motor to run in quasi 3 phase using a couple of caps. I have been running 3ph motors on 230v single phase for over 20 years and have never had any problems. It may be neccessary to use a separate switched cap for starting. If in any boubt, cap values etc. you can PM me. Your project is looking great. Well done. G.

Thanks. I did buy a starting cap from Maplins on the weekend. Need to get to the point that I can install it. This is what I bought,
2.5F 440V Motor Run Capacitor

GEOFFREY
22-06-2015, 07:34 PM
You probably need a starting cap and a run cap. I actualy use a little timer that switches the start cap in for about one second, but the value of the caps you use is dependant on the motor power and if the motor is stating under load etc.. This system does not give a true 3ph, but a "quasi" 3ph, however for a coolant pump I am sure it that you will never know the difference. G.

Chaz
22-06-2015, 10:09 PM
What is the general consensus for wiring the Emergency Stop Relay. Keep this and its function (X Y Z extreme limits) or wire into the CS Labs directly and control from there?

Currently on activation it stops all drives, the spindle, the coolant pump and the ATC. It works and I am inclined to leave it in place as it is.

Gary
22-06-2015, 10:18 PM
Keep it as is, but feed an output from the relay into an input on the controller to tell it you have an estop state.


What is the general consensus for wiring the Emergency Stop Relay. Keep this and its function (X Y Z extreme limits) or wire into the CS Labs directly and control from there?

Currently on activation it stops all drives, the spindle, the coolant pump and the ATC. It works and I am inclined to leave it in place as it is.

JAZZCNC
22-06-2015, 11:49 PM
What is the general consensus for wiring the Emergency Stop Relay. Keep this and its function (X Y Z extreme limits) or wire into the CS Labs directly and control from there?

Currently on activation it stops all drives, the spindle, the coolant pump and the ATC. It works and I am inclined to leave it in place as it is.


Well I don't agree with Killing power because Limit trip isn't an emergency situation it's a positional error so no need to Kill power just Halt movement. SO I would have limits tied to the Enable signal on drives and Inform the Controller of a Limit breach.
This way you don't damage expensive tooling when the spindle grinds to halt inside of material because power is Cut.! Machine is just halted from continuing and you can recovery safely by lifting tooling out of material then reversing off the Switches using tempory overide.

E-stop is an emergency situation to the operator and this is when you want power stopped but often positional errors ie: limits are not life threatening or dangerous to user only potential machine damage and the Limit's prevent this in most cases.

I did wounce upon time think "Kill every thing" but experience as taught me it's not needed where limits are concerened and it's more a pain in the arse, esp with short travels with fast accelerating machine and expensive at times with unnecessary tool damage.

m_c
23-06-2015, 01:33 AM
You probably need a starting cap and a run cap. I actualy use a little timer that switches the start cap in for about one second, but the value of the caps you use is dependant on the motor power and if the motor is stating under load etc.. This system does not give a true 3ph, but a "quasi" 3ph, however for a coolant pump I am sure it that you will never know the difference. G.

One thing to be aware of when using this method, is you have to select caps that will provide reasonably matched voltages between the 3 legs when running. Achieving that with a small motor may prove to be a bit of a challenge, but you should benefit from the fact a coolant pump should have a reasonably steady load.
My main concern would be that the coolant pump motor is running near it's rated capacity, and when running from a static phase converter you risk burning out the motor if you try running it at high loads.

Gary
23-06-2015, 07:46 AM
With a servo system cutting the power to the drivers if limits are activated is for safety in case you have a servo run away due to encoder loss, but cutting the enable will also work in this situation as well.



Well I don't agree with Killing power because Limit trip isn't an emergency situation it's a positional error so no need to Kill power just Halt movement. SO I would have limits tied to the Enable signal on drives and Inform the Controller of a Limit breach.
This way you don't damage expensive tooling when the spindle grinds to halt inside of material because power is Cut.! Machine is just halted from continuing and you can recovery safely by lifting tooling out of material then reversing off the Switches using tempory overide.

E-stop is an emergency situation to the operator and this is when you want power stopped but often positional errors ie: limits are not life threatening or dangerous to user only potential machine damage and the Limit's prevent this in most cases.

I did wounce upon time think "Kill every thing" but experience as taught me it's not needed where limits are concerened and it's more a pain in the arse, esp with short travels with fast accelerating machine and expensive at times with unnecessary tool damage.

Chaz
23-06-2015, 08:45 AM
Thanks. I have a question about enabling '0V' for the drives.

Currently, to enable the drives, I need to provide 0V to a certain wire which allows a relay to activate (24V).

I have looked at the wiring diagrams and believe I understand how to wire the limits, E Stop, spindle activate etc.

What I am unsure of is how to enable a 0V grounding to enable the drives. I could reverse the wiring which means that it will switch the relay on, on providing 24V. There seems to be a specific way to do this in the manual as per below. Here, it seems to be for the same purpose but the 24V and 0V are reversed. Is this what I need?

There is also an option for 'low active', does this inverse the logic to satisfy the current need for 0V?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15613&stc=1

On the topic of the 24V PSU, if you look carefully, there is a bridge there .... :-(

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15614&stc=1

Chaz
23-06-2015, 08:53 AM
On the topic of 'enabling', for solenoids etc, I assume it will be custom macros and commands to allow various outputs to be switched on and off as needed?

Clive S
23-06-2015, 09:41 AM
Chaz For the sake of clarity please be aware that the word grounding is not always the same as 0V. Grounding usually what is referred to as the star point ie earth. OV is the -ve from the power supply (but is not always at earth potential). ..Clive

Chaz
23-06-2015, 09:49 AM
Chaz For the sake of clarity please be aware that the word grounding is not always the same as 0V. Grounding usually what is referred to as the star point ie earth. OV is the -ve from the power supply (but is not always at earth potential). ..Clive

Thanks, understood, will be careful with the terminology in future for the sake of clarity.

JAZZCNC
23-06-2015, 02:43 PM
Chaz the Cslabs Controller outputs are PNP logic so you can't control 0v only Load. So change the relay around and provide it with Positive.
The way the outputs work is you provide 24V and 0v to each bank of 4 outputs. Then each output switches the Load. The Load must share the 0v of the Output.

It's similair with Inputs as well except that each individual Input is provided with 24v & 0v but you can choose which to sense. So can use NPN or PNP logic if required.

The HV option could be used for enableing the drives but again it just uses an Output so will be PNP logic.
Low active just changes how it reacts or switches and doesn't inverse the voltage etc. IE: Active if Voltage goes High(24v) or Active if voltage goes Low(0v)
Or in case of outputs If OUTPUT High Turn it Low when active and vise versa.!

EDIT: If controlling relay with OUTPUT make sure the relay coil load isn't more than 250mA otherwise you'll damage the OUTPUT.

JAZZCNC
23-06-2015, 03:02 PM
On the topic of 'enabling', for solenoids etc, I assume it will be custom macros and commands to allow various outputs to be switched on and off as needed?

Depends what your controlling to whether it's Commands in a Macro or G-code commands. Both will control Outputs or inputs for turning things on or off.
So for instance to turn on Spindle and Coolant you'll use M3 and M8 which are G-code commands. M5 and M9 will turn them off.

For tool change you'll use M6 which then reads commands in a Script. This is where you use commands to turn on solenoids etc or read sensors etc and position the machine in correct place for tool change.!! . . . . This is where the funs starts.! . . Lol

The Cslabs have a very nice feature in that you can use Modbus to control the I/O directly in the controller and completely separate to Mach3 making it very flexible to what can be done with more features than what Mach3 allows and more reliable.! . . . Bit advanced maybe at this stage but you'll like it one day., ,Lol

Chaz
23-06-2015, 04:11 PM
Thanks JazzCNC.

I am trying to get the missing solenoids replaced but am stuck with 1 open question.

There are 4 x small pipes going up to the ATC for left / right / up / down and one single 6mm OD pipe for what I believe to be the drawbar.

When you look at the spindle however, there is a single pipe, I presume this is the same 6mm pipe to activate the drawbar?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15616&stc=1

i2i
23-06-2015, 04:14 PM
the 6mm pipe is for the drawbar

Chaz
23-06-2015, 04:15 PM
the 6mm pipe is for the drawbar

Perfect, thanks.

Getting pricing from http://www.jjairsystems.co.uk/ for the manifold, 5 solenoids (2 x ATC left / right), 2 x ATC down / up and drawbar).

i2i
23-06-2015, 04:21 PM
you wont need 5, just three. The in/out can be done with one valve, same as the up/down.

Chaz
23-06-2015, 04:24 PM
you wont need 5, just three. The in/out can be done with one valve, same as the up/down.

Ah ok thanks, does it have 2 electrical connectors per solenoid then or does it pulse both?

i2i
23-06-2015, 04:29 PM
when the valve for the horizontal ram is off the carriage is held out under pressure, when it is on the airflow is reversed so the ram pushes the carriage in. Same for the up/down.

Chaz
23-06-2015, 08:15 PM
We have life on all three axis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-B71XsYmLk

Nothing quick or exciting but executing some g code, slowly.

Next to do the spindle and home switches.

Thanks to all that have helped thus far.

Some bastard, 20 years ago, thought he would be funny by reversing the Z axis encoder ..... explains the odd behaviour that wasn't consistent. Why would it be different to X and Y?

GEOFFREY
23-06-2015, 10:11 PM
One thing to be aware of when using this method, is you have to select caps that will provide reasonably matched voltages between the 3 legs when running. Achieving that with a small motor may prove to be a bit of a challenge, but you should benefit from the fact a coolant pump should have a reasonably steady load.
My main concern would be that the coolant pump motor is running near it's rated capacity, and when running from a static phase converter you risk burning out the motor if you try running it at high loads.

I totally agree with the above comments and would add that I check the voltages on each leg and try to get equal voltages under normal load conditions. The run cap value will be determined by balancing the "leg" voltages, and the start cap value (which is usually only switched in for 0.5-1.0 seconds) will assist the motor to start to turn. G.

i2i
23-06-2015, 11:06 PM
We have life on all three axis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-B71XsYmLk



Next to do the spindle and home switches.

remember the need for isolation on the 0-10, there cannot be a connection to ground it must be dc isolated.

JAZZCNC
24-06-2015, 12:22 AM
remember the need for isolation on the 0-10, there cannot be a connection to ground it must be dc isolated.

He's good to Go i2i the IP-A 0-10v is isolated. As are all the I/O on the Cslabs controllers.!

i2i
24-06-2015, 12:42 AM
stunning, they look pretty good, i wish they were about when i had my three phase triac. Saying that i still have the servo's and drives here somewhere, could be good for one of my quatros.

Chaz
24-06-2015, 08:52 AM
On the topic of isolation, when providing 24V for the purpose of something like a limit switch, should this come from the same 24V that powers the CS Labs unit or one of the outputs of the device itself to try provide some level of isolation?

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15617&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15618&stc=1

Chaz
24-06-2015, 09:29 AM
i2i, I checked the measurements of the missing actuator last night in terms of the 2 threaded elements. The smaller end is M8 but I suspect fine thread. I tried to screw in a standard M8 bolt which it accepted but then stopped.

The hole size for mounting is just over 21mm, I think on the phone yesterday you thought this might be 27mm ish?

i2i
24-06-2015, 09:46 AM
i don't remember the m8 thread being fine, and the mounting thread could be 22mm. It's been quite a while since i did one, check the one you have on there.

JAZZCNC
24-06-2015, 10:07 AM
On the topic of isolation, when providing 24V for the purpose of something like a limit switch, should this come from the same 24V that powers the CS Labs unit or one of the outputs of the device itself to try provide some level of isolation?

For limits Just use the same source that you power the unit with. But if you are keeping full Isolation using a separate source then best pulling from this and powering the unit for it's own personal source.

Personally I just pull from one source and never had any issues.

Chaz
24-06-2015, 10:07 AM
i don't remember the m8 thread being fine, and the mounting thread could be 22mm. It's been quite a while since i did one, check the one you have on there.

I thought it was M8 fine simply as the standard M8 bolt I have didnt thread, it started and then stopped. Could have been dirt but felt like a different thread.

In terms of the mounting, yes, its around 22mm. The parker units I was looking at seem to be larger, might need to look at another option. RS Components has a number of actuators, not cheap, but have stock and variety.

m_c
24-06-2015, 11:27 AM
RS are expensive for pneumatics, but they're mostly supplying repairers who will pay extra to get a machine back up and running quickly. Parker are also expensive if you're paying full price, but machine builders get quite big discounts, which is why they're so popular.
.
Try the Norgren catalogue to see if you can match the cylinders - http://www.norgren.com/uk/info/12/actuators
Once you have a part number, try googling it to see who can supply it. I've not used pneumatic actuators for a long time, but the hardest part was always identifying what you need.
.
There is a possibility the threads could be imperial, so could be worth investing in a couple sets of imperial and metric thread pitch gauges, as pneumatics/hydraulics still use quite a bit of imperial.

Chaz
24-06-2015, 11:55 AM
RS are expensive for pneumatics, but they're mostly supplying repairers who will pay extra to get a machine back up and running quickly. Parker are also expensive if you're paying full price, but machine builders get quite big discounts, which is why they're so popular.
.
Try the Norgren catalogue to see if you can match the cylinders - http://www.norgren.com/uk/info/12/actuators
Once you have a part number, try googling it to see who can supply it. I've not used pneumatic actuators for a long time, but the hardest part was always identifying what you need.
.
There is a possibility the threads could be imperial, so could be worth investing in a couple sets of imperial and metric thread pitch gauges, as pneumatics/hydraulics still use quite a bit of imperial.

Ive looked at 3 sets of suppliers now including Norgren. For a 25mm bore, they all use M10 for the rod. I could drill / tap if needed, not ideal but if If Im not going to get the original part, Ill need to make a plan.

Chaz
24-06-2015, 12:04 PM
Actually, thinking about it last night, when I checked, I was in a rush. I grabbed a bolt which I thought was M8 but I think its M10. Ill measure tonight to be sure. Ive found what I believe to be the same Joucomatic part as what is on the up / down, its also 10mm. The mounting nut is 22mm which is correct.

JAZZCNC
24-06-2015, 03:22 PM
These guys will probably have what you want and just over hill in sheffied. . . . http://www.airaccessories.co.uk/

Chaz
24-06-2015, 03:56 PM
These guys will probably have what you want and just over hill in sheffied. . . . http://www.airaccessories.co.uk/

Thanks, have emailed them. A bit disappointed in many of the local companies. They clearly dont need my business. Have asked a few for assistance with little response. Hopefully these guys can help.

Chaz
24-06-2015, 08:57 PM
OK, the thread is M10 fine for the actuators. M10 x 1.25, all the specs are the same.

i2i
25-06-2015, 12:28 AM
this is weird, the last time i changed one of these i had no problem getting an exact replacement and as low as 12. It was a couple of years ago but there were loads about.

GEOFFREY
25-06-2015, 10:20 PM
When I replaced a pneumatic lift ram on my SCM I contacted a company in Derby - SGS - tel no. 01332 576850. I ordered a ram at 4pm on a Friday and was told I could collect at 8 am the next morning. I thought that was fantastic service and the cost was less than 50% of the SCM part, I simply had to tell them the required cylinder dimensions, stroke, force rating and end connection details. I don't know if this helps, but it is probably worth a try. G.

Chaz
25-06-2015, 10:26 PM
When I replaced a pneumatic lift ram on my SCM I contacted a company in Derby - SGS - tel no. 01332 576850. I ordered a ram at 4pm on a Friday and was told I could collect at 8 am the next morning. I thought that was fantastic service and the cost was less than 50% of the SCM part, I simply had to tell them the required cylinder dimensions, stroke, force rating and end connection details. I don't know if this helps, but it is probably worth a try. G.

LOL, take a guess what im doing right now?

http://www.sgs-engineering.com/air-compressors

Snap!

Chaz
25-06-2015, 10:29 PM
I was going to order today for delivery tomorrow as Ill be home but didnt get the time and still undecided to what size compressor I need. I dont need much for the pneumatics on the machine but Id like something for cooling too. So looking at a 100L unit. I had a 24L Bambi before, lovely, but expensive and too small for continual air for blowing on parts / clearing swarf etc.

Chaz
09-07-2015, 05:32 PM
Ok, time for an update.

Had some setbacks with some of the electronics items, not going to discuss as such but many thanks to continued offline support from both i2i, JazzCNC and Gary @ Zappautomation.

Received my compressor today as well as the solenoid / actuator items. Got mostly working, missing 2 small 90 degree items, but its installed and wired up.

I tested the carousel motor for the first time today, spins along happily. I have no real idea yet how it knows where it is. I know there is a sensor, will try and look at that again later and there is an ability to reverse the direction of travel. Clearly it needs to 'know' which tool is currently selected.

Am hopeful that this weekend, unless I have issues or some delays on parts coming in, may be able to do the the first basic milling, with or without the tool changer working.

Boyan Silyavski
09-07-2015, 05:40 PM
Dont forget to post some video at the end of that . Or to say at the start of the new journey:yahoo:

i2i
09-07-2015, 05:43 PM
the sensor reads the position of the disc on the carousel motor

Chaz
09-07-2015, 05:46 PM
the sensor reads the position of the disc on the carousel motor

Thanks, but what does it output?

Chaz
09-07-2015, 05:49 PM
I can see the motor can be reversed too using a relay called CCR. Is this commonly used in the retrofit? I know there are macros that 'know' that getting from 8 to 6 is quicker to go back 2 steps than forward by 6.

i2i
09-07-2015, 05:53 PM
you can always add a switch to energise the valve for the toolholder cylinder, and change the tools manually.

Chaz
09-07-2015, 06:03 PM
you can always add a switch to energise the valve for the toolholder cylinder, and change the tools manually.

Yep, that is one option.

i2i
09-07-2015, 06:04 PM
Thanks, but what does it output?it's fed with either 5v or 12v, pretty sure it's 5v. It's basically a three wire proximity switch, gnd, supply, and output. It will give you a switched output relative to the supply voltage.

Chaz
09-07-2015, 06:07 PM
it's fed with either 5v or 12v, pretty sure it's 5v. It's basically a three wire proximity switch, gnd, supply, and output. It will give you a switched output relative to the supply voltage.

So does that basically activate when the proximity sensor is happy? So its a locator device?

i2i
09-07-2015, 06:14 PM
there's a point on the disc that is removed, this activates the sensor when it passes it. The logic in the macro needs to see this twice for one tool position

Chaz
17-07-2015, 10:11 PM
Hi, so update time. Mostly there now, busy wiring in the DC Drive input isolator. I just want to check, some of the wiring a bit uncertain about.

This is the board I am using, as recommended by i2i.

http://diycnc.co.uk/spindleV5x.pdf


On the board, I need to provide 24V DC, straight forward, I take from my 24V PSU rails.


I then need to provide the 0-10V output to the old DC drive, check, 2 wires, sorted.


I then need to provide GND, STEP, DIR and Run / Enable.


From my CS Labs unit IP-A, I get an Analog Output.


So, looking at the image below, I take from pin 7 (Analog Out 0) and pin 20 (Gnd) - do these go to the GND and STEP inputs on the board?


https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=4d8fc638c1&view=fimg&th=14e9da1cab76c667&attid=0.1&disp=emb&realattid=ii_14e9da08033a719c&attbid=ANGjdJ-uSLEqOdi2t668NTBqQeEUSXq5aBLgj2hIp4pfepLTVQPFybk2K G-LFckSTKZDxoiYh5ac1IGfeAAicvrl8Ri2XE3Uh4LNmXaxAlla6 s8-Kn_r1FTtO2E3CaY&sz=w1124-h982&ats=1437163703930&rm=14e9da1cab76c667&zw&atsh=1









What do I use for DIR And Run / Enable then? Are these from my CS Labs unit (24V switched outputs)?

Clive S
18-07-2015, 12:42 AM
Chas I don't see an image!!

i2i
18-07-2015, 02:43 AM
Gnd. Gnd
Step. This is a 5v logic level pulse and is normally a configured output from the parallel port that gives 2000 pulses for full output, which will be 10v dc.
Dir. This is a 5v logic level relay.
Run. This is a 5v logic level relay.

The board is basically a DC isolated frequency to voltage converter with two added relays

dodgygeeza
18-07-2015, 09:13 AM
I am not sure what you are going to do with this board, the CSMIO/IP-A does not have any step and direction output, the controller has a 0-10V output that goes to the spindle speed control. If you need isolation because the current spindle has no isolation, then you are better to just throw the spindle away and stick an inverter and ac motor in the system.


Hi, so update time. Mostly there now, busy wiring in the DC Drive input isolator. I just want to check, some of the wiring a bit uncertain about.

This is the board I am using, as recommended by i2i.

http://diycnc.co.uk/spindleV5x.pdf


On the board, I need to provide 24V DC, straight forward, I take from my 24V PSU rails.


I then need to provide the 0-10V output to the old DC drive, check, 2 wires, sorted.


I then need to provide GND, STEP, DIR and Run / Enable.


From my CS Labs unit IP-A, I get an Analog Output.


So, looking at the image below, I take from pin 7 (Analog Out 0) and pin 20 (Gnd) - do these go to the GND and STEP inputs on the board?


https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=4d8fc638c1&view=fimg&th=14e9da1cab76c667&attid=0.1&disp=emb&realattid=ii_14e9da08033a719c&attbid=ANGjdJ-uSLEqOdi2t668NTBqQeEUSXq5aBLgj2hIp4pfepLTVQPFybk2K G-LFckSTKZDxoiYh5ac1IGfeAAicvrl8Ri2XE3Uh4LNmXaxAlla6 s8-Kn_r1FTtO2E3CaY&sz=w1124-h982&ats=1437163703930&rm=14e9da1cab76c667&zw&atsh=1







What do I use for DIR And Run / Enable then? Are these from my CS Labs unit (24V switched outputs)?

Chaz
18-07-2015, 10:15 AM
Chas I don't see an image!!

Sorry, I copied / pasted the post and was surprised as I could see it. Clearly no one else can ;p

See below.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15708&stc=1

Chaz
18-07-2015, 10:17 AM
I am not sure what you are going to do with this board, the CSMIO/IP-A does not have any step and direction output, the controller has a 0-10V output that goes to the spindle speed control. If you need isolation because the current spindle has no isolation, then you are better to just throw the spindle away and stick an inverter and ac motor in the system.

Ye, its just more money though that I dont need to spend.

Ill rather get this working, if someone can help with an isolation option / circuit and then later look to put in a higher speed spindle which will be useful for cutting the items I want to cut.

i2i
18-07-2015, 10:30 AM
I am not sure what you are going to do with this board, the CSMIO/IP-A does not have any step and direction outputChaz send an email to Roy and ask him if the dc-dc converter is 1:1. If so you can probably run the ipa 0-10 through it instead of the generated voltage from the diy cnc board. ( please check this with Roy first )

Chaz
18-07-2015, 10:33 AM
Thanks - just done.

Will wire up to be manually set for speed until I get some options.

Could I use the 5V from the Encoder output terminals on the CS Labs unit to allow me to enable the board? I dont have any other 5V supplied that I can use.

i2i
18-07-2015, 10:40 AM
remember no touching ground with those wires, and try not to touch the copper bits.....lol

Chaz
18-07-2015, 11:35 AM
remember no touching ground with those wires, and try not to touch the copper bits.....lol

Ive taken that board out, not taking a chance with it until confirmed. Sorting home / datum switches now, a bit confusing. Home is X all the way to the left, Y all the way to the person but the datum plate is on the other side.

Is datum not home?

Chaz
18-07-2015, 11:37 AM
Ok. clearly not although it uses switches called datum, that is what is confusing. The Triac usermanual confirms the same - home is correct as I have it now.

Chaz
18-07-2015, 01:11 PM
Can anyone explain why, when the CS Labs unit has a fault condition, my machine basically drives both X and Y to the positions furtherest from home? How do I stop this from happening?

Also, spindle relay wired, connected to output 6 on the CS Labs digital output but spindle doesnt run. I try M3 and M4, I can see Mach 3 flashing that there is activation, but the actual relay (24V out on output 6) doesnt kick in.

Chaz
18-07-2015, 01:19 PM
Actually, I think I know why in the first instance. I need to get enable to work via the controller. Currently the DER (Drive Enable Relay - which cuts power to the drives), is hardwired as its 0V 'on'. That said, why is something controlling it (ie, giving it reference to move), when there is a fault? Some type of failsafe?

Chaz
18-07-2015, 03:45 PM
And we have life, although the motor output is being set manually at the moment and still need to sort my machine runs X Y positive when controller resets.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15709&stc=1

Chaz
18-07-2015, 04:21 PM
Ok, spindle now starts on M3 code. Progress.

Chaz
18-07-2015, 10:38 PM
Not happy with the E Stop setup. Im currently using most of the original wiring but on 'reset' my X and Y still moves in the + directions. I then wired off the 24V switched to tell the CS Labs that the Emergency Stop was hit. This works but resetting is tricky.

I am going to remove the E stop setup in the current wiring mode and just wire it to the controller. Ill work another way to enable the drives.

Boyan Silyavski
19-07-2015, 03:23 AM
I am basically deciding same stuff for my machine.

So i wired Estop to the servo drives not to the board. The board just enables the drives. So I hit the Estop and the drives stop instantly, they emit alarm signal that disables the board and puts all in reset condition. I reset from mach3 and board resets drives and enables them/ 2 different pins that go to relays/

What i am saying is that is ok for the board to have second circuit connected to the estop button, but its a must to stop the servos, so thats why servos usually have Estop and limit switch inputs, to react faster than boards.

Gary
19-07-2015, 09:00 AM
The way it should be done is to have the Estop connected to an emergency relay that will cut off the AC going to the Servo drivers. The Servo drivers should have a DC supply that still powers the logic up, so when the estop is hit, even though the AC is dropped, the driver still knows where it is.
You can also have the Limits connected to the relay as well as the csmio.

m_c
19-07-2015, 11:33 AM
I was going to say I never had any major E-Stop issues with my Denford Cyclone lathe (from what I've seen, Denford used a pretty standard E-stop setup across most of their machines), but then the KFlop allowed me a lot more flexibility in handling E-stops, and I added extra relays so the servo fault outputs triggered an E-stop. However to achieve clearing a drive fault situation, I had to use a custom program in the KFlop that clears the E-stop signal, then waits for all the drives to exit fault status before resuming normal business.
I used Kinco servos from Zapp, which allowed me to configure inputs/outputs how I wanted them to work, but I'm not sure what drives you're using, or what timing sequence they need.
.
I'm guessing your problem is the Drive Enable/Drive Fault timing once you're into an e-stop?
Your DER should be connected to a Drive Enable output from Mach3, so unless Mach is active, nothing should move. Simplest option may be to add an override push button to disconnect the drive fault input and/or trigger the drive reset so you can fool Mach into exiting an e-stop, and get the drives back online/out of fault.

Chaz
19-07-2015, 11:54 AM
I was going to say I never had any major E-Stop issues with my Denford Cyclone lathe (from what I've seen, Denford used a pretty standard E-stop setup across most of their machines), but then the KFlop allowed me a lot more flexibility in handling E-stops, and I added extra relays so the servo fault outputs triggered an E-stop. However to achieve clearing a drive fault situation, I had to use a custom program in the KFlop that clears the E-stop signal, then waits for all the drives to exit fault status before resuming normal business.
I used Kinco servos from Zapp, which allowed me to configure inputs/outputs how I wanted them to work, but I'm not sure what drives you're using, or what timing sequence they need.
.
I'm guessing your problem is the Drive Enable/Drive Fault timing once you're into an e-stop?
Your DER should be connected to a Drive Enable output from Mach3, so unless Mach is active, nothing should move. Simplest option may be to add an override push button to disconnect the drive fault input and/or trigger the drive reset so you can fool Mach into exiting an e-stop, and get the drives back online/out of fault.

Yep, spot on. Mine is about DER timing I feel. As the Denford uses inverse logic, its been a bit more painful as the CS Labs unit cannot provide 'switch on this 0V option' from what I can see. I also dont understand why, when Mach3 goes into 'reset mode' that the machine moves itself in X and Y positive direction. I think disabling the drives will help here, currently the DER relay is kept powered (well, zeroed, 24V is permanent) via hardwiring. Ill swap the logic and then use one of the enable outputs, like what I am doing with the new Kinco drive that replaced a damaged IRT drive.

Chaz
19-07-2015, 11:58 AM
Thoughts on this to drive Mach3?

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/computing/desktop-pcs/desktop-pcs/lenovo-c260-19-5-all-in-one-pc-black-10108872-pdt.html#srcid=11026

Pros:-

Touchscreen
Fairly Cheap
Windows copy is legal

Cons:-

Not massively powerful, but its not a Pentium 4 either
Not a lot of upgrade options.

m_c
19-07-2015, 12:15 PM
Yep, spot on. Mine is about DER timing I feel. As the Denford uses inverse logic, its been a bit more painful as the CS Labs unit cannot provide 'switch on this 0V option' from what I can see.
Just swap the relay wiring. Instead of having the relay having a permanent 24V with switched 0V, swap it so it's got a permanent 0V with the 24V coming via the CS.

also dont understand why, when Mach3 goes into 'reset mode' that the machine moves itself in X and Y positive direction. I think disabling the drives will help here, currently the DER relay is kept powered (well, zeroed, 24V is permanent) via hardwiring.
That's the way analogue drives work. When the controller is active and running closed loop, it's continually adjusting the supplied voltage to hold the servo stationary, remove the closed loop or disconnect the control wire, and most servos will move, due to the internal circuit design and/or even interference/noise generate in the wiring. That's why the drive should be disabled when the controller isn't active. Most modern servo drives do let you program in a 'deadband' zone, which allows you to create a voltage range where the drive will not move, but it's not something that's needed when a CNC controller is involved. It's a feature more aimed at where servos are being manually controlled via something like a speed pot, where you need a stationery position from a basic voltage control.


Ill swap the logic and then use one of the enable outputs, like what I am doing with the new Kinco drive that replaced a damaged IRT drive.
One thing to note with the Kinco drives (certainly the CD4x2 ones I used), is you can invert the input/output logic via the software. IIRC by default, things like fault outputs are only activated on a fault (bad choice from a failsafe point of view, as it means any fault in the fault circuit could cause the fault signal to go unnoticed), but can be swapped by clicking the suitable button on the input/output config screen (that's not the correct name, but I've not got the software installed to check just now!)

m_c
19-07-2015, 12:19 PM
Thoughts on this to drive Mach3?

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/computing/desktop-pcs/desktop-pcs/lenovo-c260-19-5-all-in-one-pc-black-10108872-pdt.html#srcid=11026

Pros:-

Touchscreen
Fairly Cheap
Windows copy is legal

Cons:-

Not massively powerful, but its not a Pentium 4 either
Not a lot of upgrade options.

Capacitive or Resistive touchscreen?
Capacitive is useless in a workshop environment, as it doesn't like gloves, or oily/wet fingers (just try a touchscreen phone with wet/cold/oily fingers to get a good example of just how poor they are!)
Resistive isn't quite as accurate, but doesn't care what you use to touch it.

Chaz
19-07-2015, 12:49 PM
Just swap the relay wiring. Instead of having the relay having a permanent 24V with switched 0V, swap it so it's got a permanent 0V with the 24V coming via the CS.

That's the way analogue drives work. When the controller is active and running closed loop, it's continually adjusting the supplied voltage to hold the servo stationary, remove the closed loop or disconnect the control wire, and most servos will move, due to the internal circuit design and/or even interference/noise generate in the wiring. That's why the drive should be disabled when the controller isn't active. Most modern servo drives do let you program in a 'deadband' zone, which allows you to create a voltage range where the drive will not move, but it's not something that's needed when a CNC controller is involved. It's a feature more aimed at where servos are being manually controlled via something like a speed pot, where you need a stationery position from a basic voltage control.


One thing to note with the Kinco drives (certainly the CD4x2 ones I used), is you can invert the input/output logic via the software. IIRC by default, things like fault outputs are only activated on a fault (bad choice from a failsafe point of view, as it means any fault in the fault circuit could cause the fault signal to go unnoticed), but can be swapped by clicking the suitable button on the input/output config screen (that's not the correct name, but I've not got the software installed to check just now!)

Thanks, agreed on swapping polarity, done that with the Spindle Relay already.

On the Kinco, I cant get my Serial / USB cable to work, so its all been done by hand. Sometimes the drive doesnt like being reset and I need to fiddle a few times.

Chaz
19-07-2015, 12:51 PM
Capacitive or Resistive touchscreen?
Capacitive is useless in a workshop environment, as it doesn't like gloves, or oily/wet fingers (just try a touchscreen phone with wet/cold/oily fingers to get a good example of just how poor they are!)
Resistive isn't quite as accurate, but doesn't care what you use to touch it.

Oh, I dont know actually. I dont think the PC World lads will know either. Any way to know / check based on anything visible? In the same breath, if you said '99.9% of all screens are capacitive', then that answers it. Suppose Ill take my biking gloves and see if it works on a demo unit. If it does, it must be resistive.

Chaz
19-07-2015, 12:58 PM
Slightly off topic.

Suggested vendors for:-

Alu, Brass - Clickmetal?
Decent Quality endmills / engraving bits / etc ?
T Nuts (I got some with the machine, but not enough) - 10mm.
Parallel bars etc (the items you put under material in a vice to ensure its flat)
General holding kit - ebay has loads, what is the quality like?

Thanks

Chaz
19-07-2015, 01:26 PM
The CS Labs unit actually has something called 'HV Enable'. Its for enabling drives, just wired it, works well. It will stop within 1ms if there is a fault or anything that it is not happy with.

m_c
19-07-2015, 02:29 PM
What USB/Serial lead have you got?
There was an issue recently with FTDI clones, and FTDI releasing a windows driver that bricked them.
.
I'd guess the screen will be capacitive, but the quick check is to try working it with something like the blunt end/top of a pen.
.
Alu/brass, figure out what you need and do some searching. If you'll be buying full lengths/sheets, it's often worth trying your local metal suppliers. Personally, I use a mix of local for full size bits, metalsandplastics for cut alu/brass bars, and ebay for odds and ends for one off projects.
.
Endmills I mostly use APT (shop-apt.co.uk IIRC), as I know I'm getting decent cutters. Ebay is cheaper, but I've found quality can vary. Before you buy anything, run some figures through FS Wizard / G-Wizard (I personally prefer FS Wizard/HSM Advisor as HSMA I think is easier to use/configure) and try out different speeds/sizes/flutes and compare to what power/feedrates you have available. On a Triac, I'd guess you'll be wanting 2 flute to keep a decent chipload for the given RPM/feedrates, but run the figures and see.
.
Holding Kits, you can't really go wrong with the generic T-slot kits from ebay as a starting point. Once you get going and have some experience, you'll probably find you'll want to invest in other mounting methods depending on what you're doing. I'm just in the process (was, I'm currently waiting for a helicoil kit after I picked up a 4.8mm drill instead of the 4.2 to make a couple M5 threads) of making up a work plate that'll use Mitee bite clamps to hold flat bar in place, as I'm fed up with clamps being in the way and needing extra material to clamp.
.
For other bits, ArcEuroTrade is good. Not the cheapest, but they're stuff is always good quality, unlike some of the ebay offerings. They also dispatch quickly. Personally, just buy what you need when you need it. I've got stuff I bought years ago that I thought would be handy, but has never been used. On the other hand, it can be annoying not being able to get a quick job done because you've not got that couple pound widget that would make it so much easier!

Chaz
19-07-2015, 02:35 PM
What USB/Serial lead have you got?
There was an issue recently with FTDI clones, and FTDI releasing a windows driver that bricked them.
.
I'd guess the screen will be capacitive, but the quick check is to try working it with something like the blunt end/top of a pen.
.
Alu/brass, figure out what you need and do some searching. If you'll be buying full lengths/sheets, it's often worth trying your local metal suppliers. Personally, I use a mix of local for full size bits, metalsandplastics for cut alu/brass bars, and ebay for odds and ends for one off projects.
.
Endmills I mostly use APT (shop-apt.co.uk IIRC), as I know I'm getting decent cutters. Ebay is cheaper, but I've found quality can vary. Before you buy anything, run some figures through FS Wizard / G-Wizard (I personally prefer FS Wizard/HSM Advisor as HSMA I think is easier to use/configure) and try out different speeds/sizes/flutes and compare to what power/feedrates you have available. On a Triac, I'd guess you'll be wanting 2 flute to keep a decent chipload for the given RPM/feedrates, but run the figures and see.
.
Holding Kits, you can't really go wrong with the generic T-slot kits from ebay as a starting point. Once you get going and have some experience, you'll probably find you'll want to invest in other mounting methods depending on what you're doing. I'm just in the process (was, I'm currently waiting for a helicoil kit after I picked up a 4.8mm drill instead of the 4.2 to make a couple M5 threads) of making up a work plate that'll use Mitee bite clamps to hold flat bar in place, as I'm fed up with clamps being in the way and needing extra material to clamp.
.
For other bits, ArcEuroTrade is good. Not the cheapest, but they're stuff is always good quality, unlike some of the ebay offerings. They also dispatch quickly. Personally, just buy what you need when you need it. I've got stuff I bought years ago that I thought would be handy, but has never been used. On the other hand, it can be annoying not being able to get a quick job done because you've not got that couple pound widget that would make it so much easier!

http://plugable.com/drivers/prolific

Supposed to be decent, many reviews. The lead is ultra short tho, not ideal.

Chaz
19-07-2015, 03:53 PM
So the coolant pump was seized. Managed to free it although cant get the 'bowl' thing at the end open to clean it. Ive tried both directions, no fluid coming out. Does anyone know if I need to prime the pump?

Chaz
19-07-2015, 04:12 PM
On a similar topic, what fluids do I use? The stuff in there looks old, ideally would like to replace it.

m_c
19-07-2015, 06:52 PM
Provided the pump head is submerged, it should pump. Can you see if the rotor itself is turning?
.
Fluid depends on what you'll be machining. There's not a coolant that is ideal for everything, but there are some that are generally good on most things.

Chaz
19-07-2015, 07:09 PM
Ok. It's working now. Had to check direction a few times. Lots of dirt in the pipes etc. Pump not healthy but manages some pressure now.

Can anyone link a fluid I can use mainly for ALU?

Chaz
22-07-2015, 12:14 PM
So, not a trick question .... but would like some confirmation of what my X and Y steps should be. I have it very close but Id like to know how the number is calculated. I know the formula, but on the current info I have, the 725 value does not look correct.

The issue is that I dont know the config of the drives. I do not have access to them and therefore there could be a host of different 'steps per rev' measurement. could be a number of values.

So If I take some of these, I cannot match the value that I am currently using which is 725. This seems very accurate, I am getting measurements within 1% but I need to do more testing. I may have a bit of backlash which *might* account for some inaccuracy, certainly on my Y.

Please see the table below. I take a number of options and nothing matches 725. I then swap the gear ratio around and the closest I get is 819.2.

The third table (in green) I simply reverse engineer from 725 and get some random steps / rev, could either of these be correct?

The claimed maximum output from the driver manual is 1024, but am aware that this could be multiplied by 2 or 4?

Thoughts?

Thanks
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15714&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15715&stc=1

i2i
22-07-2015, 12:36 PM
for a stepper fitted machine, that has 400 steps per rev, and the gear reduction is 2.5:1, with the 5mm pitch you get 200 steps per unit in metric. For a 2:1 gear reduction it should be 160 steps per unit. All you have to do now is equate that to the steps per rev your motor has.

steps per rev / ( ballscrew pitch/gear reduction ) = steps per unit

If you have a bit of backlash check the angular contact bearings at the pulley end of each ballscrew, they may need adjusting.

Ps. don't forget to fold the tab washer flat to adjust the nut.

Chaz
22-07-2015, 01:30 PM
for a stepper fitted machine, that has 400 steps per rev, and the gear reduction is 2.5:1, with the 5mm pitch you get 200 steps per unit in metric. For a 2:1 gear reduction it should be 160 steps per unit. All you have to do now is equate that to the steps per rev your motor has.

steps per rev / ( ballscrew pitch/gear reduction ) = steps per unit

If you have a bit of backlash check the angular contact bearings at the pulley end of each ballscrew, they may need adjusting.

Ps. don't forget to fold the tab washer flat to adjust the nut.

Thanks, so based on my pulleys being 12 / 24 (motor end / ballscrew end), 5mm screws, using 725 steps for damn near 100% accuracy, what do you believe the steps per rev is on the current IRT 1306 drives via the simulated encoder outputs?

Chaz
29-07-2015, 01:04 PM
I have a favour to ask, not sure if anyone can help or suggest someone that can.

I bought a replacement drive from a vendor. Before I bought the drive, I asked if it can work with my current CS Labs and Mach 3 setup. I was told that it would.

Once the drive was installed, it was apparent that it would not work, not unless additional electronics was added as it does not output a suitable differential encoder output.

I attempted to get the drive refunded. The seller rejected this. Eventually he agreed that the drive doesnt work as I need and offered a partial refund. This was then upped later but not 100% as I requested.

Distance selling rules allow me to return the device however as this was a seller from EU (Finland), there is a clause that states that I can return only if the device / item has not been used.

I ended up raising a dispute with Paypal and forwarded them all the email correspondence that highlights that the vendor has accepted that the drive cannot output differential encoder outputs as needed (without building some custom circuitry).

Paypal have now come back and asked that I make contact with 'an expert' who can verify this. This is their request.

"Please obtain a document from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or another individual or organisation that's qualified in the area of the item in question (other than yourself), which details the extent of the damage or clearly explains how the item received significantly differs from the item that was advertised.

This document must be on a letterhead that includes the name, address, and phone number of the individual, business, or organisation so that we may contact them if necessary."

I spoke to them at length this morning as I dont think this is reasonable. Why should someone, who has no role in this, assist me (at their cost and time).

I told them that the emails confirm what the seller had indicated. I was then told that emails could be altered. They offered a new option which was even more complex.

So, my question is, is there anyone that is either on this site or falls under the category of 'unbiased third party etc' that is willing to look at the info and put something in a letter than I can send to Paypal for the refund?

If not, Ill reluctantly accept the part refund offer that I had and cut my losses on this.

Thanks

Gary
29-07-2015, 01:13 PM
Give me a link to the driver that you ordered.
Also did you get an email form them to say that it will work with the CS labs controller? I find it strange that a servo driver that accepts +/-10V and works with a resolver would not have emulated encoder output.

Chaz
29-07-2015, 01:28 PM
Give me a link to the driver that you ordered.
Also did you get an email form them to say that it will work with the CS labs controller? I find it strange that a servo driver that accepts +/-10V and works with a resolver would not have emulated encoder output.

Thanks.

http://granitedevices.com/digital-servo-drive-argon

http://granitedevices.com/w/images/f/f4/ArgonFlyerA4.pdf

http://granitedevices.com/wiki/ARGON_Servo_Drive

It does do some level of encoder output, but you have to add additional circuitry.

This is explained here:-

http://granitedevices.com/wiki/Argon_EXT_connector

Due to my lack of knowledge (at the time, not that I am now wise ;p), the drive cannot do differential encoder output. The seller of the drive (nice kit otherwise) indicated it can be done but not only do I need to solder into the drive to connect this EXT connector, I will need additional electronics. I believe (if I am not mistaken) that his method to create 'differential' was simply to invert the signals and present them for use. My understanding of differentials is that one of the reasons we use these is for error checking. If one of the feeds looks 'bad', it will compare it to the opposite one. Duplicating it is not exactly helpful as this wont work in this case.

At least, that is my understanding.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks

I am not sure if my lack of knowledge has been the issue here. In both cases I forwarded the seller both the IRT 1306 drive manual as well as the CS Labs manual to show exactly what I needed. I therefore assumed that the drive would work as I required.

My first email to them:-

"Hi,

I have had damage to my IRT 1306 drives. I have managed to repair 2 of them but the 3rd remains faulty.


The motor runs with revolvers.


http://shop.granitedevices.com/product/30/digital-servo-drive-argon



I believe that your driver should work. Do you have a single unit in stock? How quickly could you get this to me in the UK?


There are 2 resellers selling them but a 25-50% markup is not cool.


Please help.


Thanks"

Their response (removed their contact details):-

"Hi Charl,

Thank you for your inquiry!

We have few Argons kept in UK warehouse stock for urgent cases. Please let me know if the need is urgent and I can arrange you one.

Best Regards
Granite Devices Oy Finland, www.granitedevices.com (http://www.granitedevices.com/)"

My response to this:-

"Yes, please !!!

Can you just quickly confirm that this should work with my current system? It uses IRT 1306 drives with resolver input. That drive then outputs as encoder output which is then taken by the CS Labs controller. Ive attached the drive specsheet for info.


What do you need from me to process this and arrange postage for tomorrow or Saturday at worst?


Thanks
"

And their response again:-

"Hi Charl,

We can ship today with express courier if ordered ASAP and it would probably deliver tomorrow (but there is always uincertainty if it makes there in one day, or if theyre is saturday delivery option).

I quickly checked the pdf and the drive looks quite close to Argon. Do you require also encoder output from the drive? This feature in Argon has few limitations, see: http://granitedevices.com/wiki/Argon_EXT_connector

I hope to hear from you soon!"

Boyan Silyavski
29-07-2015, 01:36 PM
Obviously I have missed something from the thread. What CS labs board are you using and why you close the loop in the board and not in the drives? Why would you need at all the drive to output encoder signal to the board?

Chaz
29-07-2015, 01:42 PM
Obviously I have missed something from the thread. What CS labs board are you using and why you close the loop in the board and not in the drives? Why would you need at all the drive to output encoder signal to the board?

Im using the CS Labs IP-A.

My original drives are IRT 1306. They take motor resolver feedback to work and then output an emulated differential encoder output which the CS Labs unit needs to know where the motor is in terms of position.

Gary
29-07-2015, 01:43 PM
Looking at his email, it looks like he left it up to you to read through the specification sheet to see if it will work or not.
Looking at the details on the encoder output, this is very poor and not even a connector accessible form the outside of the box, so will require going into the driver and connecting to the ABZ, but this is only 3.3V and also very unacceptable to esd and electrical noise.
If is was just a single ended encoder output with a good 5V signal and a connector on the outside of the box, then this would not be a problem, by connecting a standard board to convert from single ended to differential.
If you want me to put something on paper i can do.
It makes absolutely no sense to have a good driver like this being limited by no differential encoder output.

Chaz
29-07-2015, 01:48 PM
Looking at his email, it looks like he left it up to you to read through the specification sheet to see if it will work or not.
Looking at the details on the encoder output, this is very poor and not even a connector accessible form the outside of the box, so will require going into the driver and connecting to the ABZ, but this is only 3.3V and also very unacceptable to esd and electrical noise.
If is was just a single ended encoder output with a good 5V signal and a connector on the outside of the box, then this would not be a problem, by connecting a standard board to convert from single ended to differential.
If you want me to put something on paper i can do.
It makes absolutely no sense to have a good driver like this being limited by no differential encoder output.

Thanks. Agreed. I like the drive, its nice kit. I love the open source idea but its not what I needed.
It feels like I bought a car with an Aircon and then when it doesn't work, I get told to have some pipes and gas installed to make it work.

Appreciate if you can draft something up for me and sent it across.

Many thanks.

Gary
29-07-2015, 02:34 PM
emailed you back.

Chaz
29-07-2015, 02:38 PM
emailed you back.

Thanks, appreciated.

Chaz
10-08-2015, 12:33 AM
Quick update time.

Machine is running but I need to do more tweaking. Need to recheck the PID control but generally fairly happy. Taken most of the backlash out both mechanically and with Mach 3.

Needed to move the mill but no method available. The engine hoist I bought isnt wide enough. Got an idea to buy some heavy duty castor wheels. Tried to fit them but the metal I wanted to put them on was too flimsy. Came up with a good plan, had some 20mm Alu plate for something else but milled myself 4 plates to basically mate the wheels to the load bearing beams, using the original shafts.

Some pics below, the CNC has now been moved to the location I wanted it in the garage. Last pic is of a new X plate but I ended up having a problem with it, so it wont be used.

http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15860&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15861&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15862&stc=1http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15863&stc=1

Chaz
10-08-2015, 12:35 AM
I wanted to thank a few people that have made this conversion possible. Its not 100% complete but mostly there. Still need to get ATC working and build a new control panel.

JazzCNC
i2i
Gary from Zapp (please support him)

There have been others too but I would not have completed this conversion without their help.

Many thanks.

uli12us
19-10-2015, 11:37 PM
Can you post some pics of the ATC parts. I have a (I think) similiar machine with Pickup ATC and know what you need for this part. IIRC aou want to buy 110V solenoids for the pneumatic harness. I would better use only 24V, you can them
connect directly to the PLC output (if the amperage of the Output is enough)

fidia
27-10-2015, 03:40 PM
Can you post a few pics of the mill in position. Nice idea with the castors. Will do the same to mine I think . What kind of rapid feedrates are you getting on the machine?

Chaz
27-10-2015, 07:22 PM
Can you post a few pics of the mill in position. Nice idea with the castors. Will do the same to mine I think . What kind of rapid feedrates are you getting on the machine?

Ill take some pics of the wheels this weekend.

Feedrates, about 2000mm/min at max before I see PID issues but I dont believe ive tuned the new motors properly. I need a laptop with a serial connector for the software and 2 attempts to use either a USB cable or PCI to Serial connector havent worked.

That said, 2000 is plenty for most operations. I need more spindle rpm / power now ideally as most of my stuff is Alu.

fidia
27-10-2015, 07:31 PM
Ill take some pics of the wheels this weekend.

Feedrates, about 2000mm/min at max before I see PID issues but I dont believe ive tuned the new motors properly. I need a laptop with a serial connector for the software and 2 attempts to use either a USB cable or PCI to Serial connector havent worked.

That said, 2000 is plenty for most operations. I need more spindle rpm / power now ideally as most of my stuff is Alu.


If you could post some pics of the mill too that would be great.

The 10000rpm spindle on the new Tormach 440 would be really nice on the Denford. I have emailed Tormach to see if it is possible to get one as I would like to fit to my Triac.

Chaz
27-10-2015, 08:58 PM
Can you post some pics of the ATC parts. I have a (I think) similiar machine with Pickup ATC and know what you need for this part. IIRC aou want to buy 110V solenoids for the pneumatic harness. I would better use only 24V, you can them
connect directly to the PLC output (if the amperage of the Output is enough)

Sorry, are you looking for info or advising me?

I can post pics on the weekend, anything specific you need? There is also a drawing on the Denford main forum that shows how the bits fit together.

Some here:-

http://www.denfordata.com/pdfs/triac_series_600dpi_hq.pdf

and

http://www.denfordata.com/bb/viewforum.php?f=47

Chaz
01-11-2015, 07:35 PM
Can you post a few pics of the mill in position. Nice idea with the castors. Will do the same to mine I think . What kind of rapid feedrates are you getting on the machine?

Some pics below. A bit rushed this weekend, let me know if you want pics of anything specific.

Thanks

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5744/22655918296_5bc6ee2732_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/709/22693069941_96380e6efb_b.jpg


https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/610/22668355502_f84a0c93da_b.jpg

xiteamxi
16-03-2017, 04:31 AM
any update on your build did you finish the atc conversion?

Chaz
16-03-2017, 12:32 PM
any update on your build did you finish the atc conversion?

Hi,

Yes, its fully working with Mach3. Id like to redo some of the wiring but its working as needed. Ive since installed an AC Servo spindle as the DC motor wasnt working well.

m_c
16-03-2017, 01:54 PM
Any details on the servo conversion?

I've currently got mine in bits, and am currently working on the finer details of how the servo is going to fit.

Chaz
16-03-2017, 01:58 PM
Any details on the servo conversion?

I've currently got mine in bits, and am currently working on the finer details of how the servo is going to fit.

Ye, Ill share some stuff when I get home. I had to do a fair bit of test fitting due to the constraints of the physical space. I am using a 1.5KW Panasonic servo.

andy_con
16-03-2017, 03:10 PM
So you have upgraded the spindle to a Panasonic one? How does it work with atc?

I'm gagging to upgrade my spindle, I've got money just no options

Chaz
16-03-2017, 03:12 PM
So you have upgraded the spindle to a Panasonic one? How does it work with atc?

I'm gagging to upgrade my spindle, I've got money just no options

Yep. It works well. I dont use my ATC often but functionally it works. I can do some improvements to it for fine tuning but the machine is now running at minimum as good as it would have when new.

Where are you based? You are welcome to come look at the bits.

andy_con
16-03-2017, 03:30 PM
Yep. It works well. I dont use my ATC often but functionally it works. I can do some improvements to it for fine tuning but the machine is now running at minimum as good as it would have when new.

Where are you based? You are welcome to come look at the bits.

So spindle speed? How have you got it to work?

What kind of setup?

The triac has a slightly different atc seti
Up the. Most with its spindle and powered draw bar

I'm in Essex?

Chaz
16-03-2017, 04:57 PM
Direct motor replacement, 4400 rpm due to slight change in gearing.

Im in West London - UB108TE, feel free to pop around, Im home Saturday if you want to see my mess.

Ill take some pics anyways to share.

xiteamxi
16-03-2017, 04:59 PM
What did you end up with an m6 macro for the atc? Any chance you could post it up?

andy_con
16-03-2017, 05:15 PM
Direct motor replacement, 4400 rpm due to slight change in gearing.

Im in West London - UB108TE, feel free to pop around, Im home Saturday if you want to see my mess.

Ill take some pics anyways to share.

Not knocking ya build or anything but triac comes with a 4000rpm motor so that's not really an upgrade.

I want to min of 10000rpm

What electronics do you have? I'm assuming your running mach?

I have full drawings to upgrade the atc to 10 tools just never got round to making it. It's just a new disk/bit that holds the tools and stepper motor to spin the disk

Chaz
16-03-2017, 06:22 PM
Not knocking ya build or anything but triac comes with a 4000rpm motor so that's not really an upgrade.

I want to min of 10000rpm

What electronics do you have? I'm assuming your running mach?

I have full drawings to upgrade the atc to 10 tools just never got round to making it. It's just a new disk/bit that holds the tools and stepper motor to spin the disk

It wasnt meant as an upgrade. It was meant to get me up and running again. The DC motor was failing and I had to make do with something as I am using the Triac to make parts for my new machine.

10K is possible, of course, but its a fairly big undertaken and not a 'hot swap' like what I did.

I am running with CS Labs - Mach 3 - Servos all round for all axis.

andy_con
16-03-2017, 07:18 PM
ah fair enough, ive had issues with my motor and still do to be fair.

I put mine in for a 500 repair which hasn't really done a lot, so wondering if its the sprint drive card.

indeed 10k is possible its just finding a suitable replacement atc motor. id settle for 18k or 24k providing its an atc model.

mines a standard triac, so normal stepper motors, ive got PMDX126 in there, with ESS. I out in spindle feed back and have touch probe and z height setter wired in.

but my goal is a new atc spindle and then ill finish the electronics with new stepper drivers and out 10 station atc in

Chaz
16-03-2017, 10:16 PM
What did you end up with an m6 macro for the atc? Any chance you could post it up?

I had an initial bit of code provided however it did not work. My code is poor and doesnt care for the status of limit switches or even counting of the ATC. It does however work so can post.

Chaz
16-03-2017, 10:45 PM
ah fair enough, ive had issues with my motor and still do to be fair.

I put mine in for a 500 repair which hasn't really done a lot, so wondering if its the sprint drive card.

indeed 10k is possible its just finding a suitable replacement atc motor. id settle for 18k or 24k providing its an atc model.

mines a standard triac, so normal stepper motors, ive got PMDX126 in there, with ESS. I out in spindle feed back and have touch probe and z height setter wired in.

but my goal is a new atc spindle and then ill finish the electronics with new stepper drivers and out 10 station atc in

Im selling my Sprint 1220i controller if you need a replacement.

andy_con
16-03-2017, 11:17 PM
Im selling my Sprint 1220i controller if you need a replacement.

how much?

I really want a new spindle set

Chaz
16-03-2017, 11:23 PM
how much?

I really want a new spindle set

They are around 270ish new, Ill take 100.

m_c
17-03-2017, 12:41 AM
Space is certainly a challenge with triac spindles.

Andy, what is wrong with your spindle motor/drive?
Mine started hesitating and making what's probably best described as a rumbling noise, followed by tripping the RCD at higher speeds. I took the brushes out, and there's signs of arcing on one of them, and another was sticking in the holder, but giving them a clean never made any difference.
The armature isn't that clean looking, however I won't be able to get the motor apart without using heat to get the pulley of, and I suspect the real problem lies with the drive. For it to trip the RCD, there's either got to be an excess build up of carbon inside to give continuity between the brushes and the case, or the SCRs on the drive are starting to breakdown and shorting to GND.
From past experience with my old lathe, the rumbling noise is consistent with a faulty drive.

If you want a new replacement DC drive, KB Electronics drives aren't that expensive. For basic speed control, a KBIC would work, or if you want to keep the tacho feedback, a KBMM would be needed. You'd also need to add the extra heatsink for either option to get the rated power capacity.
Axis Controls are one of the UK distributors, who I'd happily recommend as they've always been helpful when I've used them - http://www.axiscontrols.co.uk/shop/kb-electronics-dc

I think I'll go and start a new thread about my replacement plans, as I'm umming and arring over the design.

xiteamxi
17-03-2017, 02:22 AM
I had an initial bit of code provided however it did not work. My code is poor and doesnt care for the status of limit switches or even counting of the ATC. It does however work so can post.

Better then what i've come up with so far i'm sure, if you get a chance to post it id appreciate it,or if anyone else has a working m6 atc macro..

Chaz
17-03-2017, 07:31 AM
Better then what i've come up with so far i'm sure, if you get a chance to post it id appreciate it,or if anyone else has a working m6 atc macro..

Send me a PM with your email address so I can also explain a few bits about it.

Chaz
17-03-2017, 09:00 AM
Space is certainly a challenge with triac spindles.

Andy, what is wrong with your spindle motor/drive?
Mine started hesitating and making what's probably best described as a rumbling noise, followed by tripping the RCD at higher speeds. I took the brushes out, and there's signs of arcing on one of them, and another was sticking in the holder, but giving them a clean never made any difference.
The armature isn't that clean looking, however I won't be able to get the motor apart without using heat to get the pulley of, and I suspect the real problem lies with the drive. For it to trip the RCD, there's either got to be an excess build up of carbon inside to give continuity between the brushes and the case, or the SCRs on the drive are starting to breakdown and shorting to GND.
From past experience with my old lathe, the rumbling noise is consistent with a faulty drive.

If you want a new replacement DC drive, KB Electronics drives aren't that expensive. For basic speed control, a KBIC would work, or if you want to keep the tacho feedback, a KBMM would be needed. You'd also need to add the extra heatsink for either option to get the rated power capacity.
Axis Controls are one of the UK distributors, who I'd happily recommend as they've always been helpful when I've used them - http://www.axiscontrols.co.uk/shop/kb-electronics-dc

I think I'll go and start a new thread about my replacement plans, as I'm umming and arring over the design.

These are around 270ish new. The 1220i which is 12A, isolated input.

http://www.sprint-electric.com/products/340i

Im selling my one that I no longer need for 100 if interested. Din Rail mount, nice and tidy.

http://www.sprint-electric.com/images/340i.png

andy_con
17-03-2017, 10:39 AM
bit of a thread hijack sorry.

so when I got the machine it turned on and worked, but every time I started the spindle it tripped the RCD. I notice straight away the main fuse on the sprint drive card had been bridged, so assuming it was a known problem.

after many hours of faffing I took the top cover off the sem motor and it was filled with burnt carbon from the brushes. after a really really good clean and hoover, it worked and didn't trip the rcd.

I also replaced the brushes in the side of the sem motor just for piece of mind.

a problem since I had the machine is you start the spindle at say 3000rpm and it starts to jump around going up and down, by like 300-400rpm. so sent it away for a 500 refurb and it hasn't fixed the problem just changed the problem. now days when I set the motor to 3200rpm, it will go to that speed then after about 10 seconds jumps to 3800 where it will just sit until turned off. its not a big deal I have live spindle feed back so I can account for it, but it shouldn't be doing it.


Space is certainly a challenge with triac spindles.

Andy, what is wrong with your spindle motor/drive?
Mine started hesitating and making what's probably best described as a rumbling noise, followed by tripping the RCD at higher speeds. I took the brushes out, and there's signs of arcing on one of them, and another was sticking in the holder, but giving them a clean never made any difference.
The armature isn't that clean looking, however I won't be able to get the motor apart without using heat to get the pulley of, and I suspect the real problem lies with the drive. For it to trip the RCD, there's either got to be an excess build up of carbon inside to give continuity between the brushes and the case, or the SCRs on the drive are starting to breakdown and shorting to GND.
From past experience with my old lathe, the rumbling noise is consistent with a faulty drive.

If you want a new replacement DC drive, KB Electronics drives aren't that expensive. For basic speed control, a KBIC would work, or if you want to keep the tacho feedback, a KBMM would be needed. You'd also need to add the extra heatsink for either option to get the rated power capacity.
Axis Controls are one of the UK distributors, who I'd happily recommend as they've always been helpful when I've used them - http://www.axiscontrols.co.uk/shop/kb-electronics-dc

I think I'll go and start a new thread about my replacement plans, as I'm umming and arring over the design.

m_c
17-03-2017, 10:40 AM
These are around 270ish new. The 1220i which is 12A, isolated input.

http://www.sprint-electric.com/products/340i

Im selling my one that I no longer need for 100 if interested. Din Rail mount, nice and tidy.

http://www.sprint-electric.com/images/340i.png

I'm sure I searched for sprint drives, but never got any results.
That does look like a good option, especially considering the isolated controls.

andy_con
17-03-2017, 10:40 AM
I have full triac m6 macro


Better then what i've come up with so far i'm sure, if you get a chance to post it id appreciate it,or if anyone else has a working m6 atc macro..

m_c
17-03-2017, 10:44 AM
bit of a thread hijack sorry.

so when I got the machine it turned on and worked, but every time I started the spindle it tripped the RCD. I notice straight away the main fuse on the sprint drive card had been bridged, so assuming it was a known problem.

after many hours of faffing I took the top cover off the sem motor and it was filled with burnt carbon from the brushes. after a really really good clean and hoover, it worked and didn't trip the rcd.

I also replaced the brushes in the side of the sem motor just for piece of mind.

a problem since I had the machine is you start the spindle at say 3000rpm and it starts to jump around going up and down, by like 300-400rpm. so sent it away for a 500 refurb and it hasn't fixed the problem just changed the problem. now days when I set the motor to 3200rpm, it will go to that speed then after about 10 seconds jumps to 3800 where it will just sit until turned off. its not a big deal I have live spindle feed back so I can account for it, but it shouldn't be doing it.

That does sound more like a tacho or drive fault. Have you tried monitoring the tacho voltage, to see what it does when the speed changes?
If the tacho voltage is increasing with the motor speed, then it's most likely a drive fault, but if it drops first, then there's a tacho problem.

andy_con
17-03-2017, 10:47 AM
I haven't no, you could spend more time trying to fix these machines than machining


That does sound more like a tacho or drive fault. Have you tried monitoring the tacho voltage, to see what it does when the speed changes?
If the tacho voltage is increasing with the motor speed, then it's most likely a drive fault, but if it drops first, then there's a tacho problem.

Chaz
17-03-2017, 11:12 AM
bit of a thread hijack sorry.

so when I got the machine it turned on and worked, but every time I started the spindle it tripped the RCD. I notice straight away the main fuse on the sprint drive card had been bridged, so assuming it was a known problem.

after many hours of faffing I took the top cover off the sem motor and it was filled with burnt carbon from the brushes. after a really really good clean and hoover, it worked and didn't trip the rcd.

I also replaced the brushes in the side of the sem motor just for piece of mind.

a problem since I had the machine is you start the spindle at say 3000rpm and it starts to jump around going up and down, by like 300-400rpm. so sent it away for a 500 refurb and it hasn't fixed the problem just changed the problem. now days when I set the motor to 3200rpm, it will go to that speed then after about 10 seconds jumps to 3800 where it will just sit until turned off. its not a big deal I have live spindle feed back so I can account for it, but it shouldn't be doing it.

I had similar issues. Brushes need to be clean and carbon free (And clearly not worn out). I stripped the motor down as far as I could and found that previously someone had put some putty on the wingdings. I Can only assume the motor had basically started to fail and this was a 'plaster' to keep it going.

I would only get around 30% of full current before the motor would stall. It would then overheat and start smoking from the brush area.

I triple checked the setup and verified with the supplier of the drive (they were really good) - KEITH SANSBY <info@exeddrivesandcontrols.co.uk> . So clearly the motor was the problem. Symptoms also included 'hunting' around high speed and any loading would make it worse.

m_c
20-03-2017, 12:18 PM
put some putty on the wingdings.

I've just got to say, that typo made me smile :-)

Did you get any pics of how the servo fitted?

Chaz
20-03-2017, 12:33 PM
I've just got to say, that typo made me smile :-)

Did you get any pics of how the servo fitted?

LOL, I saw that after too but left it.

No, but will sort. I do have some older pics, lemme see if I can find them.

Chaz
20-03-2017, 10:00 PM
I've just got to say, that typo made me smile :-)

Did you get any pics of how the servo fitted?

212002120121202

Difficult to show with existing pics. Ill take a vid on the weekend.

Tight squeeze, had to remove some material for it to fit and a pic of the bracket used.

m_c
20-03-2017, 11:00 PM
That's certainly a tight fit.
Any idea what size flange is on the motor?

I think a 100mm flange motor would squeeze in, however I couldn't find any with the power I was aiming for, so opted for a 110mm motor, and spacing it up.

Chaz
21-03-2017, 08:43 AM
That's certainly a tight fit.
Any idea what size flange is on the motor?

I think a 100mm flange motor would squeeze in, however I couldn't find any with the power I was aiming for, so opted for a 110mm motor, and spacing it up.

Ill share the sizes tonight. Ive got the original flange drawn up as well as the info on the Panasonic 1.5 KW servo.

Chaz
21-03-2017, 10:06 PM
That's certainly a tight fit.
Any idea what size flange is on the motor?

I think a 100mm flange motor would squeeze in, however I couldn't find any with the power I was aiming for, so opted for a 110mm motor, and spacing it up.

The plate that goes across for the DC motor is 115mm x 110mm (Depth).

The motor mount bolts are 81mm across from C to C. The recess flange is 100mm.

This is the motor mount for my Thor machine Y Axis (same motor as used on my Denford for spindle here).

21207

robertpearce4
05-08-2017, 11:17 PM
Hi Chaz,

I have just acquired 1/2 of a TRIAC VMC today so will follow your threads with interest. The Miller was going for scrap. Unfortunately I don't have the controller or a schematic but do have the monitor/PC, not that I think it of much use on its own. I have to decide if the miller is worth the time of effort to "upgrade". Even with the latest electronics/controllers its not as simple as plug and play. I agree its heavier than it looks. The C of G is not where you expect it either. The lifting eye on the top gives the game away.

m_c
07-08-2017, 12:15 AM
Hi Chaz,

I have just acquired 1/2 of a TRIAC VMC today so will follow your threads with interest. The Miller was going for scrap. Unfortunately I don't have the controller or a schematic but do have the monitor/PC, not that I think it of much use on its own. I have to decide if the miller is worth the time of effort to "upgrade". Even with the latest electronics/controllers its not as simple as plug and play. I agree its heavier than it looks. The C of G is not where you expect it either. The lifting eye on the top gives the game away.

I noticed your post over on the Denford forum earlier.
Without the control box, there will be a lot more wiring needed done, but there's nothing insurmountable if you really want to get the machine running.
From the photos you posted over on the Denford forum, you've got a BT30 spindle (it's got an 8 position tool changer), and stepper motors.
Ultimately to get it running, you'd need 3 stepper drivers (plus suitable power supply), a spindle drive, some form of controller, and lots of relays.

If you do decide not to keep it, I'd be interested. I've got a BT35 spindle version, but would quite like a BT30 version as toolholders are far easier to get, so I could swap the required bits.

robertpearce4
07-08-2017, 09:06 AM
I noticed your post over on the Denford forum earlier.
Without the control box, there will be a lot more wiring needed done, but there's nothing insurmountable if you really want to get the machine running.
From the photos you posted over on the Denford forum, you've got a BT30 spindle (it's got an 8 position tool changer), and stepper motors.
Ultimately to get it running, you'd need 3 stepper drivers (plus suitable power supply), a spindle drive, some form of controller, and lots of relays.

If you do decide not to keep it, I'd be interested. I've got a BT35 spindle version, but would quite like a BT30 version as toolholders are far easier to get, so I could swap the required bits.

Hi Chaz,

Thanks for your quick reply. I obtained a battery powered folk lift truck (FLT) from the same source...with 50% of the battery's shot. I used the FLT to move the miller with the aid of some deep cycle battery's. I need to do a little more reasearch on the cost, time, effort, choice of controllers + do I need a miller....etc before I write it off. My current urgent need is to buy a small metal lathe (Viceroy) off a friend in Magor now that I have 3 Phase on site.. Dare I ask what its worth to you? Can you swap the toolholder easily between machines? Yours for mine? I don't need this functionality and it probably complicates the control electronics. BTW I am near Welshpool. You would need to collect. There is a slim possibility the controller is about in the factory it came from. I need to have a search now I know what I'm looking for.

Chaz
07-08-2017, 04:41 PM
Hi Chaz,

Thanks for your quick reply. I obtained a battery powered folk lift truck (FLT) from the same source...with 50% of the battery's shot. I used the FLT to move the miller with the aid of some deep cycle battery's. I need to do a little more reasearch on the cost, time, effort, choice of controllers + do I need a miller....etc before I write it off. My current urgent need is to buy a small metal lathe (Viceroy) off a friend in Magor now that I have 3 Phase on site.. Dare I ask what its worth to you? Can you swap the toolholder easily between machines? Yours for mine? I don't need this functionality and it probably complicates the control electronics. BTW I am near Welshpool. You would need to collect. There is a slim possibility the controller is about in the factory it came from. I need to have a search now I know what I'm looking for.

You mean M_C :-)