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Ross77
09-06-2009, 10:16 PM
Hi all
Any one used the spindle 2 board? For 20 + speed controller, it looks like a good option for controlling routers etc

Is a VFD and 3 phase motor worth the money?

John S
09-06-2009, 10:41 PM
Yes used a few of them, Roy developed them initially for us as the Sieg and the American KB controllers have the pot at mains potential.
Just wiring straight in using the same logic supply as the rest of the breakout / driver system causes lovely bright multi coloured sparks and bangs [ don't ask ]

Like all of Roy's boards I have used, they have worked with no problems and done what it says on the box which isn't hard as they don't come in a box.

.

irving2008
10-06-2009, 09:17 AM
I have a VFD and 3phase on the lathe, and since it accommodates two motors I plan to change the mill to a 3phase and run both off the same VFD (not at the same time of course!)

Ross77
10-06-2009, 07:24 PM
Cheers guys , what VFDs and power motors are you using, Am I correct in assuming that a 3ph motor is more powerful? or is that only when they are run at 415 volts?

:beer:

John S
10-06-2009, 07:35 PM
All sorts, some generic Taiwanese el cheapo ones, IMO's Telemechaniques, Yaskawa and Fuji.
Motor powers from 0.25 Hp up to 7.5 Hp

Technically horse power is horsepower regardless of single or three phase, what does alter is the amount of amps pulled to get this power.
However the 3 phase goes come out on top as getting 3 pulses per rev it doesn't bog down as much as a single phase motor with one pulse per rev when a load is applied.

They are smoother, less vibration and with a VFD the 3 phase can have speed control, something the single phase one can't have.

.

Ross77
10-06-2009, 09:27 PM
They are smoother, less vibration and with a VFD the 3 phase can have speed control, something the single phase one can't have.



I thougt you can control the speed of a 1ph motor with a triac based controller. seen them for about 10

Do these only control the speed and therefore have reduced power as well?

Seen a couple of VFDs on ebay for 150. dose this seem about right?

irving2008
10-06-2009, 10:02 PM
I thougt you can control the speed of a 1ph motor with a triac based controller. seen them for about 10

Do these only control the speed and therefore have reduced power as well?Only if they are PM motors (permanent magnet). 1ph motors with AC field coils cannot be controlled this way as they are synchronous to the AC input frequency. PM motors are low-fractional HP output.


Seen a couple of VFDs on ebay for 150. dose this seem about right?Thats about right for a sub-1kw (.5 - 1HP) VFD. You must match the VFD to the motor.

John S
10-06-2009, 10:13 PM
Thats about right for a sub-1kw (.5 - 1HP) VFD. You must match the VFD to the motor.

Although with a modern inverter they can be bigger than the motor as you can set the max amps it's allowed to pull and so protect the motor.

.

Ross77
10-06-2009, 10:30 PM
Thats about right for a sub-1kw (.5 - 1HP) VFD. You must match the VFD to the motor.
Nothing is ever simple eh! is it just the max curent that is the issue when matching it to the motor?

Looks like I will have to research this a bit more, know of any good sites

Does this look like a good VFD,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&item=230343452299

Is 1.5K enough for decent mill? what size are you running your mills?
Thanks

Gary
10-06-2009, 10:31 PM
Three phase motors and single phase motors rated at the same power and speed will give the same torque and speed as each other. (Thus the same power)
Power is (Torque*Speed/9550) so if you reduce either speed or torque the power will reduce.
So if you have a 1KW motor rated at 3000 RPM and you reduce the speed to 1000 RPM, then the power will be 333W. (assuming the torque stays the same)
You can only control the speed of an AC induction motor by varying the frequency, and this is only with a three phase motor.
A three phase motor comes Star or Delta and motors under 7.5KW are normally 220V Delta and 380-415V Star; you can use a single phase inverter and connect the motor in delta to run it from a single phase supply.

Ross77
10-06-2009, 11:31 PM
I'm a bit of a slut with power and such...I bought a 3KW VFD for 175 from Drives Direct at Nottingham.....via ebay (steal a bid when no-ones looking)


Cheers Kip, you must have been lucky they are 300 BIN now.
Still I supose its better to get it right first time, as you only end up buying lots of bits that might do, and speding more in the process.

How practical is it to move from machine to machine?



Patience is the key! :beer:


Is that waiting for a cheap one or Knowlege?:heehee:

BillTodd
10-06-2009, 11:39 PM
It's always worth looking at a 415-440vac one (just use a step-up transformer and a 440v motor like my lathe - the 1.5kw one I bought for <20, and a spare for a tenner :biggrin:) or, 240v ones that are described as three phase input (since almost all will work with single phase input).

John S
10-06-2009, 11:40 PM
A lot of people who use a VFD to power two machines fit a red 3 phase socket on a flying lead and use that to swap over.

If the machines are close some have a wall mounted socket and use two plugs, one per machine.

Big No No is NEVER unplug whilst running, OK to unplug whist plugged into mains and switch on but not running.

One thing to watch when sharing is the motor load in amps as these 'should' be set per motor.
Say you have a 2 Hp VFD and a 2 hp motor drawing 8 amps and a 1Hp drawing 4 amps. When you swap over you need to change the motor load parameter to match. Depending on the VFD there may be other functions to change as well.

.

Ross77
10-06-2009, 11:56 PM
Typical, being the cheap skate that I am I thought I could save a few quid with the CHR spindle controller and a 10 speed controller. But looks like Im back the VFD route! :sad:

Then again, Bill what was that step up transformer system? I know you can step up the voltage but how dose the 3 phase bit work?:confused:

irving2008
11-06-2009, 12:35 AM
How practical is it to move from machine to machine?

One thing to watch for... unless you have a 3phase supply you need a VFD that does 1ph to 3ph conversion... these have a higher input current and surge than a 3ph input

A 1Kw VFD needs a 16A circuit so not practical to put it on a 13A plug. My VFD is screwed to the wall between the lathe and mill and both motors are wired to the VFD through a big (30A three pole) two way switch. The VFD has two sets of parameters stored, one for each motor.

My lathe setup is 1.5hp AEI (c1965) 3-phase with a Jaguar VXS-75 VFD courtesy of eBay (75 the pair, bargain).

BillTodd
11-06-2009, 12:54 AM
Bill what was that step up transformer system? I know you can step up the voltage but how dose the 3 phase bit work?
It's simply that the higher voltage vfds tend to be cheaper on ebay than 240v ones.


A 1Kw VFD needs a 16A circuit so not practical to put it on a 13A plug.
Irving, my 1k5 vfd runs on a 13a plug albeit via a transformer.

John S
11-06-2009, 12:57 AM
A 1Kw VFD needs a 16A circuit so not practical to put it on a 13A plug. My VFD is screwed to the wall between the lathe and mill and both motors are wired to the VFD through a big (30A three pole) two way switch. The VFD has two sets of parameters stored, one for each motor.

My lathe setup is 1.5hp AEI (c1965) 3-phase with a Jaguar VXS-75 VFD courtesy of eBay (75 the pair, bargain).

The VSX-75 is a 1 Hp model inverter and takes 7.2 amps with single phase input.

The next one up in the range is the 150 or 1.5 Kw which will run a 2 Hp motor and that requires 14 amp.

The later updated VXSM's take 10 amp and 16 amps respectively

The cheaper Mini series takes 6 amps and 10 amps respectively.

.

irving2008
11-06-2009, 12:44 PM
The VSX-75 is a 1 Hp model inverter and takes 7.2 amps with single phase input.

The next one up in the range is the 150 or 1.5 Kw which will run a 2 Hp motor and that requires 14 amp.

The later updated VXSM's take 10 amp and 16 amps respectively

The cheaper Mini series takes 6 amps and 10 amps respectively.

.thanks for that info John.. my motor is rated on the plate as 1.5HP but seems to work OK on that VFD, it doesnt even get hot (I do have a small fan on the heatsink but it really doesnt need it)... maybe for the lathe its OK as its not running for any significant time and the load is minimal (I cant do big cuts its not that rigid). the motor I have for the mill is 1HP and a fairly recent one (<10y old). Not fitted yet as I need to make some brackets.

The manual for the VSX-75 says it needs to be on a supply with a 16A surge rating and it did used to trip the 10A MCB on start (not every time tho) which is why its now on a 20A MCB (although a 15A would probably be correct except I couldnt find one at the time). Maybe it would work on a 13A plugtop but I reckon there be a few replacement fuses needed from time to time.

Incidentally there some useful info here (http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselection_web.html)on cable and MCB selection which shows, for example, that the 1.5mm 4 core cable sold by B&Q as central heating control cable is fine for a 1HP 3phase motor wiring up to 15m (not that you'd want to run that far anyway) - my VFD manual talks about 4mm cable (which is impossible to buy in short lengths!)

Ross77
11-06-2009, 11:30 PM
Wow! thanks everyone. I knew the electrical side was going to be a nightmare......

Looks like Im going to have to rewire the workshop now as well :cry:

On the motor side of things is it possible to get high rpm, I.e. 20'000 ish (router terretory) or will I need a special spindle. Just thinking that if I have to spend all this money :smile: then i'd better getter something that will cover all my needs (wood and metal) if possible.

I've been looking at the chinese vfd and water cooled spindle packages, they seem to good to be true....

Ross77
15-06-2009, 01:04 AM
Ups. got an itchy trigger finger and just bought One.


BRAND NEW TELEMECANIQUE ALTIVAR 31 MOTOR INVERTER DRIVE
MODEL No. ATV31HO75M2
STILL IN BOX
SINGLE PHASE TO THREE PHASE MOTOR INVERTER
INPUT 220V AC 50 Hz
OUTPUT 0.75Kw 1 HP 240V THREE PHASE
COMPLETE WITH INSTRUCTIONS AND CD


just under 60 notes with postage, 1HP ??? what have i done...Supose it will be ok for the little lathe

John S
15-06-2009, 01:08 AM
Decent bargain, they are good inverters, not really any bad modern ones about.
Mitsubishi's can be a pig in that they often sell the programming panel and filters seperate so it adds up to .

You should have no problem with this one.

.

Ross77
15-06-2009, 01:26 AM
Phew, thats a relief, I didnt even google the manufacturer (not like me), saw it and had to go out, so put 50 on it just in case.:yahoo:

What would be a safe motor rating to use with it? Or will the instructions tell me...:whistle:

John S
15-06-2009, 01:33 AM
Technically anything up to 1 HP but most can be programmed for 150% overload safely so it will run a 1 1/2 HP but may trip under hard load.

I have one of the 1 1/2Hp Chinese spindles here running off a 0.55Kw [ 3/4HP ] IMO Cub inverter, the cheap one, programmed for 150% overload and it runs fine with up to 6mm cutter in it.

Been running test cycles with this for about 4 hours, non stop at 24,000 rpm and no problem although it is a bit small and I wouldn't recommend it for continuous use or any larger cutter.

Ross77
16-06-2009, 09:37 PM
I have one of the 1 1/2Hp Chinese spindles here running off a 0.55Kw [ 3/4HP ] IMO Cub inverter, the cheap one, programmed for 150% overload and it runs fine with up to 6mm cutter in it.

Been running test cycles with this for about 4 hours, non stop at 24,000 rpm and no problem although it is a bit small and I wouldn't recommend it for continuous use or any larger cutter.


Cheers, Thanks for all the good advice. Now I know that the VFD/ inverters are affordable I will probablly forget the high rpm spindle and just use a router for wood, ( should keep Kip happy:nope:)Machine mart have a 2200W ali based one for 90 ish, Should be able to deal with Maple and such like :tongue:

John S
17-06-2009, 01:05 AM
Kip,
You only need to get the stator wound, the rotor is just an alloy and iron lamination.
You can even get standard motors rewound from 2 pole 3,000 rpm at 50 hz to 12,000 rpm at 200 hz without then going pear shaped.

You need to work on the spindle as regards tool holding etc and front bearings but it can be done.

Just a teaser :whistle:

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/beltdrive6.jpg

.

Ross77
18-06-2009, 12:32 AM
I wouldn't know a piece of Maple if you hit me with it :whistle:


Tempting..:heehee:



Kip,
You only need to get the stator wound, the rotor is just an alloy and iron lamination.
You can even get standard motors rewound from 2 pole 3,000 rpm at 50 hz to 12,000 rpm at 200 hz without then going pear shaped.

You need to work on the spindle as regards tool holding etc and front bearings but it can be done.

Just a teaser :whistle:


How, where and how much????
No problem with bearings and tool holder as I'm going to use dedicated spindle with ER32 collet chuck and then just use different motors to drive it

Ross77
18-06-2009, 12:52 AM
Oi I'll start taking the piss.... :naughty:


Bring it on.....
breaks the monotomy of dullards like me asking stupid questions all the time :whistle:

Ross77
25-06-2009, 09:42 PM
Picked up a 3ph motor today, have been told it works but want to know if there is a way to test the motor before powering it up and possibly damaging the vfd.

The motor is 0.75kw, 2800rpm and 230v if wired in star config.

Cheers in advance

irving2008
26-06-2009, 02:34 PM
Picked up a 3ph motor today, have been told it works but want to know if there is a way to test the motor before powering it up and possibly damaging the vfd.

The motor is 0.75kw, 2800rpm and 230v if wired in star config.

Cheers in advanceYou wont damage the VFD, it'll just trip out. Just set it for a low speed before hitting run...

I just picked up a IMO Cub CDS 0.75kW inverter ( for 35! I'm sure the guy had put it on wrong, 30 initial price 35 Buy It Now... so I did! Found the manual on the net too...

So now I can run the lathe and mill independently...

brandon_costa
15-02-2011, 01:28 AM
All sorts, some generic Taiwanese el cheapo ones, IMO's Telemechaniques, Yaskawa and Fuji.
Motor powers from 0.25 Hp up to 7.5 Hp

Technically horse power is horsepower regardless of single or three phase, what does alter is the amount of amps pulled to get this power.
However the 3 phase goes come out on top as getting 3 pulses per rev it doesn't bog down as much as a single phase motor with one pulse per rev when a load is applied.

They are smoother, less vibration and with a VFD the 3 phase can have speed control, something the single phase one can't have.

.

I'd also recommend Yaskawa & FUJI. I wouldn't recommend ABB to anybody.

Has anybody worked with Yaskawa's latest drive?

http://www.clrwtr.com/Yaskawa-A1000-Drives.htm