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Andyshomecrafts
30-07-2015, 01:10 PM
I know a lot of people disapprove of wooden CNC, but I've set my heart on the Sidewinder, I've recieved the plans and started cutting the parts.
the problem I have is, on the sidwinder it uses
1/2inch -10 5 start. Lead screws and couplers. But searching for these I've drawn a blank, and are only available from the states and p&p is stupid money.
please could someone advise me of another way around this.
im ok working with wood,but anything concerning lead screws etc I struggle

Clive S
30-07-2015, 01:33 PM
Are these what you are looking for. http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=lead++srews
or http://www.leadscrewsandballscrews.co.uk/?gclid=CjwKEAjwluetBRD98L639p35p0QSJACC8BlKWulgip2 NDxnCgyHzdeC0GvUDGJ1UHh7C1mup8telTBoCDknw_wcB
.
You don't need imperial screws metric is fine

What do you intend to cut with this machine?

Andyshomecrafts
30-07-2015, 01:40 PM
Thanks I will take a look.
i make toy Box's and just wanted to engrave names etc on the lids or front panel.
Mdf if what I work with.

njhussey
30-07-2015, 02:07 PM
Ther are 2 ways you can go, one is to use Trapeziodal leadscrew which is the closest to the stuff they're linking to or the better solution will be to get ball screws from China. The trouble with the Trapeziodal is that you'll struggle to get enough speed to cut wood and that backlash creeps into the lead nuts due to wear so you're constantly adjusting them.

It's easy enough to specify the ballscrews you want to someone as all you need is the length and the machining you want on the ends. I'm not too sure who the current favourite supplier is, I think I've seen the name Fred banded about but I'm sure someone will come along and chip in shortly....

THe ballscrew I'd recomend is a 1610 with BK & BF end supports. The data sheets for these are freely available on the internet, just google them. When specifying the machining I'd add at least 15mm to the F dimension (I think!!) so that you've enough space to fit your pulley/coupling or whatever you're using to connect to your stepper.

With regards to your steppers and drivers, I'd recomend these http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/stock-sales/stepper-motors/sy60sth86-3008b-nema-23-stepper-motor-48577.html and drivers these http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/stepper-drivers/em-high-performance-stepper-driver-step-direction/em806.html I realise that the drivers are expensive but I can almost guarantee that you'll want to upgrade once you've got your machine working and have hit the limitations of it and these will be transferable. For the BOB then I'm not too familiar with the cheaper end as I'm using a CSMIO IP-M which is a fantastic bit of kit but quite expensive. I believe CNC4you do some good cheap ones, you'll need a 4 axis one at least as you're using slaved steppers on your X (or Y as they call it in the US) axis http://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Breakout-Board-and-PSU%27s

Hope this helps....:encouragement:

Andyshomecrafts
30-07-2015, 02:21 PM
Thank you so so much for taking the time out to explain it, I really appreciate it.

njhussey
30-07-2015, 02:38 PM
Thank you so so much for taking the time out to explain it, I really appreciate it.

No problems, I'm still learning but happy to give help where I can :)

Robin Hewitt
30-07-2015, 03:58 PM
5 starts with a Delrin nut? I remember those, I have one somewhere, marvellously tight on the nut and smooth as silk.

RS used to sell them, search RS for lead screw.

Boyan Silyavski
30-07-2015, 07:24 PM
I know a lot of people disapprove of wooden CNC, but I've set my heart on the Sidewinder, I've recieved the plans and started cutting the parts.

I am definitely one of them. At least what you could do is listen to others advice on ball screws and drives and motors and breakout board. So when you come to your senses you could use the parts for making a better machine.

Robin Hewitt
30-07-2015, 08:13 PM
So when you come to your senses you could use the parts for making a better machine.

It is starting to get to you to. I used to be really helpful and typed long explanations about why things like MDF routers were a terrible idea, why you really needed a milling machine to cut aluminium, why 200 steps/rev was a really poor choice, why 64 microsteps was going to make things worse not better and so on. But like beating your head against a brick wall it helps no one and it is nice when you stop :very_drunk:

Andyshomecrafts
30-07-2015, 08:43 PM
I'm sorry for asking advice about the wooden CNC if it pisses so many people of, I thought forums were meat to help and advise people who are interested in the topic.
The reason I want to build a wooden CNC. Is it's the only thing I am able to work with, I want to build the project on my own. I have the tools to work with wood. 4 years ago I woke up in a hospital bed, to cut a long story short and to save boring anyone, I'd had two massive strokes and been in a coma for 11 weeks, couldn't walk or talk still can't, but I can move my arms.
So it's easy for me to get my son to cut the big parts from wood, because neither of us know two things about working with metal.
So no worries I won't be on here again, so you won't be banging no heads against no walls.

Lee Roberts
30-07-2015, 09:10 PM
Andy no offence but seriously there is no need to be like.

Please understand that we get 100s and 100s of people who start out with wood for construction in mind, more often than not after having a good read they decide to build something much more substantial, a machine mad from wood is a good start as any and can work.

As you've said your only really geared up to work with wood and that's ok, though I would say working with metal is still doable depending on how you design the machine and the complexity of the part you would need, there are members here that have machines up and running and ready to work so there is an opportunity for to request a quote on having parts made for you.

Basically, engraving is probably the lightest duty you could ask of a machine so you could very well get away with doing that on a sidwinder and be more than happy, it's likely that once up and running your machine could then also go on to cut plastics and metal, what anyone with that kind of machine has to realise is that you will have to go easy with the machine, slow cutting speeds, less material removal per pass and so on, ok vs a more substantial machine you know what the differences will be but your machine will still get the job done, hopefully you could then use the machine to make new parts for itself or even a new machine and design, consider it a "leg up".

If the machine was for any kind of production then it's always advisable to get the builder to go with somthing better from day one, as I said above for all manner of reasons and that's what the guys above inadvertently were trying to say.

As long as you have a solid grasp of what to expect from the machine then great, get cracking and enjoy what is about to come.

.Me

Clive S
30-07-2015, 09:21 PM
Andy Please don't take any notice of what has been said. You have made it quite clear you want to build and wooden router and if you need help you will find it on here and I for one will help all I can.

Don't buy any electronics or motors until you are ready and they can be the difference between a good machine and a crap machine. You don't need to spend a lot of money on the BOB I run my mill from a 10 BOB from a PP. if you look for AM822 drives on ebay and motor from http://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor-Plus you won't go far wrong.

Please don't be put off by the people that want to build a 1 ton machine and think everybody should do the same.
Good luck with the buid ..Clive

Andyshomecrafts
30-07-2015, 09:23 PM
Thank you.

Boyan Silyavski
30-07-2015, 10:36 PM
It is starting to get to you to. I used to be really helpful and typed long explanations about why things like MDF routers were a terrible idea, why you really needed a milling machine to cut aluminium, why 200 steps/rev was a really poor choice, why 64 microsteps was going to make things worse not better and so on. But like beating your head against a brick wall it helps no one and it is nice when you stop :very_drunk:

You are 7 years here. I am 1 and a half. I could not even imagine what you have been through :hysterical:.

But yeah, after you try to persuade 10 people with 0 result, all leads to short -NO . Anyway, people should learn to read build logs. I for once read all build logs on site, before starting to ask questions. I still have many questions but first search then ask.



I'm sorry for asking advice about the wooden CNC if it pisses so many people of, I thought forums were meat to help and advise people who are interested in the topic.


The reason I want to build a wooden CNC. Is it's the only thing I am able to work with, I want to build the project on my own. I have the tools to work with wood. 4 years ago I woke up in a hospital bed, to cut a long story short and to save boring anyone, I'd had two massive strokes and been in a coma for 11 weeks, couldn't walk or talk still can't, but I can move my arms.
So it's easy for me to get my son to cut the big parts from wood, because neither of us know two things about working with metal.
So no worries I won't be on here again, so you won't be banging no heads against no walls.


No body is judging you. Dont take that personally. Me and the others gave you a sound advice instead of trying to dissuade you. Its a really good forum with a lot of helpful people. You could do a plane from paper if you like to. What i and others were suggesting is to buy the components so, that they would work ok in a normal machine and save you some head banging against walls.

routercnc
30-07-2015, 11:11 PM
Hi Andy,

Hang in there. My first machine was built just over 5 years ago from plywood and unsupported rails. It used a normal router for cutting. It would cut balsa wood, and liteply, and if you were not in a hurry plywood:

15728

If you pushed it then it would tend to cut ellipses not circles, so it had it's limitations. Basically it was not very stiff. So here it is cutting bits for it's successor (the gantry sides):

15729

And here is machine 2 which used alot more aluminum, plus linear profile rails on the Y and Z, and a water cooled spindle:

15730

But it still had limitations especially when cutting parts off centre (single ballscrew tends to rack the gantry). The gantry sides were still plywood, and the roller bearings on the X axis needed continuous adjustment and cleaning. So here it is cutting parts for it's successor:

15731

And here is that machine:
15732

And here it is munching through some 20mm aluminium plate for the Z axis upgrade:
15733
to make:
15735

And here it is at the moment:
15734

So it depends on what you want to achieve, and not being too disappointed if you build a basic machine. Good news is you can always build a better one, it just takes longer and costs you more. Good luck with the machine and your life circumstances in general . . .

routercnc
30-07-2015, 11:30 PM
Hi Andy

Just so you know the sidewinder machine looks like the leadscrews connect directly to the stepper motors. This means all the cutting forces are taken by the stepper motor bearings which is not great and would cause them to wear out. Most machines on here use a separate bearing block which takes care of these forces (see BK or BF bearings as Neil mentions).

Andyshomecrafts
30-07-2015, 11:34 PM
Don't think I'm bothering now mate.
thanks for the advise.

Neale
31-07-2015, 12:52 AM
Lots of comments made with the best of intentions. It won't be popular, but I'm going to put a different point of view. I built my MDF router to the JGRO design around three years ago. It's a pretty poor machine by many standards. However, I originally built it to make an engraved plaque for a presentation, about 20"x16", with some nice lettering and a relief picture in the middle. It turned out OK. Since then, I've helped my son with an architectural project profiled from 18mm ply. All the bits cut and fitted together as drawn. I've engraved nameplates, and lots of other odds and ends (like profiling 25mm sapele about 600mm long) in between. So, why am I building something bigger, faster, stronger? Because it is slow, it bends and vibrates if you push it a bit, I used M10 studding with home-made anti-backlash Delrin nuts as leadscrews and the X leadscrew flaps in the breeze above about 900mm/min when cutting wood would be better at ten times that. The MDF moves with changes of humidity and it's near impossible to keep the bearings adjusted. And so on.

But, as I said, it does work. This is a hobby machine, so don't judge it by commercial standards. If you are doing fine engraving, top speed doesn't matter a jot as you'll never reach it - acceleration for all those changes of direction is much more important. Studding is cheap, even compared to multi-start trapezoidal screws. It's pointless thinking about ballscrews as the machine structure won't take the cutting forces involved at the speeds they would allow. I often hold work on small blocks machined in situ to give accurate alignment, even though the bed isn't all that flat. Jobs can take a while, so I get on with something else while the machine is running. In other words, I can work around or live with many of its limitations. I'm building a new machine in steel to overcome these problems, but that's at least in part because I love building tools and machines.

I wouldn't recommend, generally speaking, that someone builds a wooden machine, but everyone's situation and needs differ, so there's a place for them. Don't be put off by people whose needs and resources are not the same as yours. You might find more uses once you have a machine in the workshop; that might help you identify a replacement in due course. Pity that you are at the other end of the country or you could have had a warts and all look at a wooden machine and things made on it.

Clive S
31-07-2015, 08:45 AM
Neale Well said:beer: as I have said on another post horses for courses and all that. ..Clive

Andyshomecrafts
31-07-2015, 09:42 AM
I would just like to Apologise for my rant yesterday, things went from bad to worse as the day went on,
I get very frustrated, but I know I should not take it out on people who are only trying to help,
genuine sincere apologies.
I know what you are saying, but the one reason I wanted to use wood, Ive limited funds of 980 but trying to add too it,
I know it's not the way to go about things, Immature I suppose but I want it now or as soon as possible, and I'd deal with the consequences when they arise,
so massive thanks to everybody who took time to comment and advise me.
todays dry and sunny, and I'm thinking straight.
i know I'm not going to build anything decent for 980 so I'm going to put things on hold until I can save some more.
:upset:

njhussey
31-07-2015, 10:03 AM
Andy, a wooden CNC will let you learn all about CNC, teach you about how to and how not to build a CNC machine and most of all give you pleasure and enjoyment in making your own things. I'd say do one of two things.

1) Build a wooden machine with cheap components and make items and possibly make money from cutting things for other people or to sell and if you enjoy the CNC hobby then either save the money and build a bigger better machine or upgrade as you go along using your machine to cut parts for the new machine.

2) Keep saving and build a machine (or get your son to) from Aluminium profile which you can cut/drill with wood working tools (all you'll need is a chop saw or table saw or circular saw or jigsaw with ali cutting blades, a cordless drill and things like a centre punch set and tap set) which you can use to make an aluminium frame (like routercnc's machine) If you manage to buy good deals on ebay, second hand things off forums etc. then a budget of 1500 will see you have a decent machine capable of cutting most of the things you want to which is not alot more than you currently have.

Robin Hewitt
31-07-2015, 11:00 AM
Have you thought about making a small machine? Most CNC problems and expense are down to scale.
Quite honestly I think you should try to butter this bunch up a bit, they can do a lot more than advice if they like you :beer:

magicniner
31-07-2015, 11:28 AM
Every time I see this subject arise and the responses I think of two of my favourite bits of engineering, the Thornycroft MTB and the DeHaviland Mosquito ;-)

- Nick

Andyshomecrafts
31-07-2015, 11:40 AM
I know I got off to a round start and I apologised but apologies are only words and come cheap, I'm not making excuses for my outburst yesterday, but it was a realy bad day, I I should not have come on the forum, I know that people are only here to help and advise, and like it was said, if people don't listen to advice, how can they help.
I do t need a massive machine. What I do is make toy boxes
land wanted to carve the names out of the front panel
The biggest piece of MDF I work with is 36in x 18
Thanks anyway I honestly do appreciate and apologise if I was out of order yesterday

Clive S
31-07-2015, 11:53 AM
Andy


You are not too far away from me Stockport, if you want a few bit cutting to get you started you are welcome to come over and I could do them for you. :beer:

Andyshomecrafts
31-07-2015, 12:04 PM
Andy


You are not too far away from me Stockport, if you want a few bit cutting to get you started you are welcome to come over and I could do them for you. :beer:

Thanks very much
I don't know if I'm going to bother now but that's very kind
I'm gong to look for some plans for smallish metal CNCs
Thanks

Musht
31-07-2015, 03:27 PM
At that sort of budget have you considered the Chinese 3040/6040 type machines

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6040-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-MACHINE-CARVING-CUTTING-TOOLS-ARTS-CRAFTS-/231621870888?hash=item35edbd4528

Andyshomecrafts
31-07-2015, 03:34 PM
Hi yes I have, but have been told to stay well away, I've read some good reviews but seen some bad ones too.
its difficult if you only got like 1k. So still in no mans land lol
thsks for taking the time to mail me, I realy do appreciate it.

Musht
31-07-2015, 03:47 PM
Well have a 3040 and its been a learning experience, but one that has been worth the cost the learning.

To be fair they are marketed as engravers not billet aluminium mills ;-)

The wiring on them, maybe changed in last 3 years , was very brittle , went intermittent, rewire of motor cabling cured that.

The control box uses Toshiba integrated drives meant for photocopiers, they can be bit sensitive, but after a rewire and replacing 2 chips, fingers crossed , no further trouble.

The spindle ,on cheap 3040, was a reused servo motor core, it`s only 180w so cutting deep aint an option.

Item linked above has a big 800w water cooled spindle , less of an issue, control box looks very similar.

Unsupported rails on the long axis on one linked would limit accuracy in hard materials would guess, its horses for courses.

Consider a Chinese frame with better electrics fitted?

Also need to budget in for software, genuine Mach3 licence and CAD and CAM software of choice.

P.S. its the internet a bit of banter is what its all about , yesterdays news is todays chip wrapper ;-)

Andyshomecrafts
31-07-2015, 03:54 PM
True, but it helps to know what your looking for.
thanks for the advice,it means a lot

Musht
31-07-2015, 04:17 PM
Your looking for something to engrave and cut MDF, that guides your search to start with.

Different level of machine to cut out motorcycle yokes in quantity to a machine for V-carving names in MDF toy boxes ;-)

Come up with some specs for what you need to do and sure there are some suggestions from the panel on what can get to do it in your budget.

D.C.
10-08-2015, 12:49 PM
If you are just v-carving soft woods or MDF you will probably get away with using something like a palm router as your spindle.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/101748-6MM-1-4-Electric-Hand-Trimmer-Wood-Laminator-Router-Joiners-Tool-220V-/281740088262?hash=item41990493c6

Brand new 43 delivered, if that helps the budget a bit.
If not, keep an eye on ebay/craigslist etc for a small secondhand plunge router you can probably get one for under a tenner.

D.C.
10-08-2015, 11:11 PM
As far as the computer side of things goes, what is your computer experience and can you beg any help from family or friends with better skills?
Mach3 will set you back about 150, a second hand PC from ebay etc 50-100. This eats into your budget a fair amount.

Alternatively you could look at the Machinekit OS running on a beaglebone black (40) with a PBX-BB bob (60)
The BBB has a huge advantage because the processor is specifically designed for industrial motion control with 2x 200mhz PRU's that deliver much better performance than a windows x86 PC could ever do.

It will save you 150-300 on computer/software/bob, as long as you can manage not to runaway screaming from the linux.

For stepper motor drivers, the TB6600 drivers can be purchased for 9-10 a piece from aliexpress, buy them one at a time and avoid going over the 15 import duty limit.

You can build a much, much better machine for your budget, so don't be disheartened.

magicniner
11-08-2015, 12:54 AM
Mach3 is $175 if buy your license direct from ArtSoft, so more like 120.
If you shop around for a decent ex-corporate machine such as an HP Dual Core 64 bit Athlon desktop or similar they can be had from Ebay for 35 to 40 delivered.
Still not peanuts but actual pricing based on my recent shopping experiences,
Regards,
- Nick