BZT - A Poor Quality Machine

[fidia]

We bought a BZT PFL-3 in my day job.

We have the machine less than 6 months and it has been a solid nightmare

1. The EStop has not worked since day 1 - Contacted BZt and they just disabled it

2. After 2 months of little use the Axes started stalling randomly - Contacted BZT and they said the machine needs new ballscrews and motors. They sent new ballscrews and motors and charged almost €400 + Shipping. Fitted them and NO FIX. the machine still stalls when on the rapid movement.

3. The spindle just stopped turning on also. M3 does nothing.


For the total cost of almost €5000 take my advice and do not buy BZT. I have contacted them and no replies. This is not my own machine but belongs to the company I work for. I am trying to get it working. I will post a video of the problem later. Ballscrews are ISEL, drivers are cheapo Chinese make and home switches are Hartmann.

At this stage I just want to send it back to them and get our money back however I doubt we will ever see the money again!

[fidia]

Been doing some troubleshooting.

1. Power on software
2. Power on control unit
3. Enable drives
4. Home Machine - machine homes OK
5. Rapid machine to X, Y and Z limits - no problem
6. G28 to bring machine to home - axes stall.

I have backed rapids down to almost nothing and always stalls when going back to home. Def not a hardware issue as the machine never stalls going forward. Only coming back. Also stalls are in X, Y and Z axes therefore I cannot see it being a mechanical problem.

Going to email BZT again tomorrow.

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

This is a electrical / settings problem , nothing to do with the machine.
It probably runs eding cnc , I and many others use the same controller with no problems.

Flyer:
http://www.edingcnc.com/upload/files/cpu5a_flyer_tech.pdf

Manual:
http://www.edingcnc.com/upload/files/usbcnc_man_v4.01.00.pdf

Motors are pretty sturdy ... so they probably are fine if there is a problem It would be in the driver / controller board (unlikely) or cabling.

You could also re-flash / update the firmware of the board ... not that It should do much but still.

Can you make video's or whatever of what is happening?
Than I can try to help you.

Also the Owner of Eding CNC is really responsive. If the controller really is defect he will probably be the one to help you out.

[fidia]

Took the machine apart today and did some tests.

Yes I think you are quite right that the control board it shot. There is also a BZT BOB.I cannot tell if this is broken.

I got a reply today after numerous emails and they asked for me to ship the machine back to them to fix. As the problem is electrical not sure why they would not just send out 2 new boards to try. Gonna cost us quite a bit to ship it back to Germany.

The boards are not too expensive but just going to send it back in any case.

http://www.edingcnc.com/products.php?productid=56

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

tbh I do not think that board is broken as i never have heard of one that broke.
Might be best to upgrade the firmware on the device and "start fresh" with new settings for the cnc. Just follow the manual.

I'm not sure if your machine has this:
http://www.bzt-cnc.de/en/shop/electronics/56-platinen-und-module/147-interfaceplatine-mit-watchdog

But that could also be whats causing you trouble. It might be the watchdog or whatever tripping from "noise".

[fidia]

I will take a picture not of the inner electronics. I do not think it has this board

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

You could send your cnc.ini file to the designer:
http://www.edingcnc.com/contact.php
He might be able to tell whats wrong.

Or ask a question (in english) on this forum:
http://www.cnczone.nl/viewforum.php?f=39

[fidia]

BZT have their own parameters that you copy to the CNC 4.01 folder when installing the software and the USB driver.

To reintall the firmware I assume you mean take out the board download latest version and write to board via USB?

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

yes
You do not have tu "use" their values , this is just a "simple" 3 axis cnc , it is not rocket science. It might be something in their settings file that might cause the explainable "stall".

Checking the stepper wires / other connections is also wise.

[fidia]

The wiring seems OK as it runs OK when started up fresh. The problem only happens a few mins after running

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

Yeah... I would contact bart eding on that subject .. this is quite weird
It also might it be that there is a bad connection and vibrations / current draw are causing the stall / step loss issue.
I would just check the resistance of the wires.

[fidia]

Will do now.

Just taking the boards off first

[fidia]

Will the firmware version affect the BTZ files etc?

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

Firmware Is just for the device, the settings have influence on the control software (CNC 4.01 or whatever you are using).
The firmware version usually also has an accompanied new control software version. Depending on the changes there might be "new" variables added to the newly generated cnc.ini (will be in different install folder than your old cnc 4.xxx ).

[fidia]

Latest seems to be release 4.02 and firmware 1.11. Board type CPU5A.

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

How I did it is to make screenshots of the settings of the old controller software and entered the values to the new control software manually.
Machine worked without issues.

[fidia]

On second thoughts I think I better not proceed as I could void the warranty as the machine is only 6 months old.

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

I do not see how updating the firmware (as recommended by the maker Bert Eding) is voiding your warranty.
Also If you bought it as an business you probably have none warranty unless it is especially stated in the terms of sales / terms of service.

[fidia]

This machine was bought for a business. They have confirmed it has a warranty.

[JAZZCNC]

6. G28 to bring machine to home - axes stall.

Define what you call a stall.? . . . . Because the fact you can home contradicts this.!!

Are you sure it's just not stopping in a place your not expecting or are the motors actually stalling, has in making high pitch whining noise.?

[JAZZCNC]

This machine was bought for a business. They have confirmed it has a warranty.

If you 100% sure it's not user error then return the machine.!

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

A short video could tell us a lot. This machine so so simple that there is not much that can go wrong.
Is the current limit of the driver maybe set to low so it trips and stalls the stepper momentarily?

And returning it ... you still have to pay the expensive shipping to Germany and back , It might be cheaper to hire / ask someone local to take a quick look.
If you find the defective item they will probably send you a new one free of charge.

[fidia]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26038451/Problem%20With%20Motors.mp4

[fidia]

No we only ran one program making holes and only one person has operated. Dedicated PC etc

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

Dropbox video loads very slow, uploading to Mega.co.nz or youtube might be a better idea.
30 minutes download for a one minute video is just ridiculous.

[fidia]

Upload to Youtube is hours.

[JAZZCNC]

Ok to help properly we need all the info regards settings.

So take clear pics of the drives and there Dip switches. Need screen shots of the settings in the control software.

Can't see it being a wiring problem but if can take clear pics then do so.

This will most likely be a setup issue. Normally with systems like this with a motion control card they either work or they don't and it's rarely a faulty board that causes problems like this with 99.9% of the time it's either a setup or wiring issue.

Same goes for the drives and the Motors. They are simple devices which just work or don't. If they turn on then again 99.9% time they just need setting up correctly.

Setup is every thing with steppers and it doesn't take much to overtune them and make them stall. Some times they work perfectly fine at one setting but won't work at all with another.
Resonance can severly affect them and cause issues. For instance you trying them motors on the bench doesn't mean they will do the same on the machine.?
I've seen resonance cripple machines with very similair stalling motors etc at low speeds and by just changing the micro stepping which shifts the resonant frequency to another place they will work perfectly fine and give 2 or 3 times the speed.!!

It will 99% turnout to be something like this or a Wiring issues.!

[fidia]

Ok to help properly we need all the info regards settings.

So take clear pics of the drives and there Dip switches. Need screen shots of the settings in the control software.

Can't see it being a wiring problem but if can take clear pics then do so.

This will most likely be a setup issue. Normally with systems like this with a motion control card they either work or they don't and it's rarely a faulty board that causes problems like this with 99.9% of the time it's either a setup or wiring issue.

Same goes for the drives and the Motors. They are simple devices which just work or don't. If they turn on then again 99.9% time they just need setting up correctly.

Setup is every thing with steppers and it doesn't take much to overtune them and make them stall. Some times they work perfectly fine at one setting but won't work at all with another.
Resonance can severly affect them and cause issues. For instance you trying them motors on the bench doesn't mean they will do the same on the machine.?
I've seen resonance cripple machines with very similair stalling motors etc at low speeds and by just changing the micro stepping which shifts the resonant frequency to another place they will work perfectly fine and give 2 or 3 times the speed.!!

It will 99% turnout to be something like this or a Wiring issues.!


BZT supply setup files which you paste into the CNC 4.01 folder per their instructions. This sets the software up. I read through the Macro file but it is difficult to know what parameters to edit as most of the comments are in German

[JAZZCNC]

30 minutes download for a one minute video is just ridiculous.

You need better provider my friend i've just downloded it in 3mins.!!

I'll stick it on you tube now if that ok with Fidia and link it here.?

[JAZZCNC]

BZT supply setup files which you paste into the CNC 4.01 folder per their instructions. This sets the software up. I read through the Macro file but it is difficult to know what parameters to edit as most of the comments are in German

Zip it up and post it and I'll take a look.

[fidia]

Its OK with me to post. I will zip them up.

Can you PM me your email address?

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

I have 250 mbit line here , it is just dropbox that is slow at 36 KB/s
edit: only 4 mins left on the download.

[JAZZCNC]

I have 250 mbit line here , it is just dropbox that is slow at 36 KB/s

Well where do you think I got it from.? wasn't slow for me.!

[fidia]

Should be able to stream rather than download

[JAZZCNC]

Here's the video it might not be ready yet but it's up there.!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84qzRBTsSgw&feature=youtu.be

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

anyway saw the video , could you check at what speed the communication is set in usbCNC ? 125Khz is the fastest and that is what is generally used (settings tap) Less might be not enough bandwidth or something like that.. It is probably in the manual.
I would just check and see what happens, this is all PC sided anyway, nothing bad can happen.

Check the voltage going to the stepper motor, check the microstep settings and the current limit of the driver.
This looks simular:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg1p99FGUXA
User had provided 1.3v instead of 3 for his stepper motor.
-Does your pc meet the required specs for Eding CNC ?

These seem to be normal stepper motors so not much can actually go wrong.
Can the drivers be tuned in any way ?

You might also want to check the powersupply voltage while the motor is runing. It might be dipping because of some defect.

[fidia]

Off my head I think it is set to 35Khz (setting pre-set by BZT)

We have tried a 32 bit XP Laptop, 64 bit Win 7 Laptop and 64 bit Win 7 PC and same result with each

http://www.edingcnc.com/wiki/index.php?page=33_general-pc-requirements

How can I adjust the voltage?

Lol

1. Return To Vendor is a possible solution
2. Ask for Money back
3. Scrap

[JAZZCNC]

User had provided 1.3v instead of 3 for his stepper motor.

Not being funny towards you saying this but that's total rubbish about voltage. 3V wouldn't even turn that motor.! This guy had loads of issues starting with the fact he's using a laptop with mach with parallel port and won't go into the machine.! . . . . He was telling porky's me thinks.!! :thumbdown:

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

Max Step Frequency:The maximum step frequency that the CPU will generate.
For motordrives it is needed to lower the maximum frequency.
In case the driveis unable to handle the high step frequency or low step-pulse width.
Some of the digital drives from Leadshine cannot handle 125Khz steprate,they need a setting of 90Khz or lower.

You could try a few speeds and see what happens.
For the power supply you need to measure the voltage and look if that matches up with what the drives have been made to handle.

Also send a email to the Eding guy , he probably knows instantly why this is happening.


Not being funny towards you saying this but that's total rubbish about voltage. 3V wouldn't even turn that motor.! This guy had loads of issues starting with the fact he's using a laptop with mach with parallel port and won't go into the machine.! . . . . He was telling porky's me thinks.!! :thumbdown:

I was just reading the comments looking for a solution for this guy. There are low voltage steppers, I have not looked at the specs of that one.

---
Replacing all the electronics by better ones would cost around 500$ , scrapping this is not the solution.
What you have is a set-up issue, there is nothing wrong that can't be fixed with some knowledge or a small amount of money.

Asking on the forum If anyone lives near is not an bad idea.

---
Do the other axes work without issue ? if so you might want to switch two of those motors and see if the issue is still there. If the "stalling" motor works just fine on the other axes than it is:
-Wiring issue
-Settings isse
-Rare case driver is broken (try to switch the driver from the other working axis to this one)
- Rare rare case there is something funny going on at that output on the eding cnc board.

[JAZZCNC]

How can I adjust the voltage?

You can't without changing the main psu and then this isn't the problem.! If you want to check for piece of mind test the voltage coming out the PSU or going into the drives.
Looking at how crap that machine is I'd guess it will be between 24-36V.

My advise is don't do or change anything untill we see how the drives are setup and how the controller is tuned regards velocity/acceleration.

[fidia]

Ha ha that statement was a brain dump lol. As I said return to vendor is the best way to adjust the voltage or put it on the 380V line for a minute lol

[JAZZCNC]

Some of the digital drives from Leadshine cannot handle 125Khz steprate,they need a setting of 90Khz or lower.

Again not having go at you with this reply it's more for the sake of others who may read it.!! . . . And the OP.!

This is not true at all I've fitted 100's of leadshine Digital drives and they easily handle 125Khz and will infact work perfectly fine at 200Khz or more provided the BOB and Controller can handle it.!

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

That was directly from the eding cnc manual , I'm not making this up.
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16167&stc=1

[JAZZCNC]

That was directly from the eding cnc manual , I'm not making this up.

Didn't think for one minute you where and please don't take offense. It's just I've used Leadshine Digital drives for years and fitted just about all the models in there range and never had any issues with Khz issues.
I soley use Motion controllers with a minimum frequency of 125Khz and never seen this problem so I'd be suspicious to whether it's Eding blaming someone else for weak link at there end.?

[DuffelBuffelWuffel]

It can be that there are/were some leadshine copies on ebay or a bad batch. Causing the crystal / clock signal to be out of spec which may lead to timing issues at higher speeds or when the conditions are just right. But who knows ... just speculating here.

Anyway, the OP has to post quite a bit more info here for ppl to help hem.

- Picture of dip switches settings for each of the drivers + model numbers + model numbers steppers
- Model number of the power supply
- Upload the cnc.ini file somewhere (mega.co.nz for example or the forum or copy the text and put it on pastebin.org )
- What works and what does not work ? Do other axis work , if you just click step (click once a second or so) with the onscreen jog pad does it still have any issues or does the stalling stop?
- If other axis work , try switching the drivers / motors and see what happens.