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Nauris
20-10-2015, 03:48 PM
Hi everyone, my name is Nauris, I'am full time sprayer and project maker (basically using SketchUp) in small carpentry shop based in North London.
Now interested to buy our first CNC router machine and looking for High-Z S-720 CNC made by Heiz to mostly use for wood engraving and to make small signs using copper.
I found one on Prototools, but they are located in Lisburn and that's a bit too far for me.
Reading lots of promising reviews about these machines and also the price is acceptable.

Is there any owner here in forum of this brand machine based in London we could meet and see how it works, please?

Will be happy to share our experience in future. :smile:


Kind regards,
Nauris

JAZZCNC
20-10-2015, 07:04 PM
Hello Nauris and Welcome.

Can I just say that these machines are over rated and over priced for what you get. They have some serious weakness issues in key component areas and design. Mostly because they use unsupported round linear rails on all axis.

These rails tend to flex and vibrate/resonate which affects the resulting finish and feeds you can run the machine at. The Long axis is one key point for flex because it carries the weight of the gantry and the Z axis etc. But the other key area is Z axis it's self which again uses unsupported rails and is a very flimsy weak area on the machine.
The Z axis is Key on any machine because it carries the cutting tool so if it resonates this shows in a poor finish on the material. The other side affect of weak Z axis is cutter brackage and excessive tool wear. It also restricts the feeds you can run the machine at. Weak means cutting slower to avoid resonance, cutting too slow equals poor finish and excessive tool wear.

Another poor area is that they use Acme Lead screws not ballscrews which are not has efficient and often with higher backlash.
This is high lighted by the quoted Rapid and Cutting feeds of the machine. 3000mm/min Max cutting speed is very low for machine that is mostly only any good for cutting woods and plastics. It should be double this for cutting and in the 8-10,000mm/min Rapid speed range.

To be fair thou It's not all the screws low efficiency at fault here the electronics will play some part which also indicates low spec but without seeing more I won't comment to much on this.!!

Then you have the design and accurecy to think about.? The design of these machines with just a Rectangle frame which sits directly on the table surface with no Bracing or support to avoid twisting is a Major failing. All your accurecy relys on the table you sit it on being perfectly flat and not twisted in anyway.!! . . . . Very few tables are that flat or not in some amount of twist.
The frame it's self doesn't provide any strength against twist so say for instance you happen to place it on the table and a Screw head is slightly sticking up, say 1mm and under one of the extrusion rails then your machine is now twisted by this amount and accurecy is out the window.

These areas I've high lighted are Key fundamental areas to having any decent machine and this machine fails badly IMO.
Now your going to say "Well those who have them like them" so can't be that bad.!! . . . .Yes maybe so but that's because they don't know any different and haven't used or experienced a good machine.

Sorry to be down or Negative on this machine but I honestly can't see why people buy them or pay the price they do for them given all the hidden extra's.
Now those who know me well will spit there coffee out over the screen at what I'm about to say given my dislike of what I'm about to suggest.!!!! . . . You'll be better with a Cheap Chinese machine and replace the electronics.!!

Why.?
Because they do have Ballscrews. They do have Supported linear rails. The frame is stronger with a proper bed. The Z axis is equal in strength. They often come with Water cooled Spindle that knocks the Kress toy town spindle into a cocked hat.

They are often let down with poor build quality and often cheap nasty electronics but with a little TLC and new electrics they will still beat the heiz machine in most all departments and cost less in the end.!!

Am I recommending you do this.? . . .No.!! . . I suggest buying something better than both or build your own custom machine. But I would before buy one of those Hiez machines.

howser37
20-10-2015, 07:44 PM
Hi, i can chime in as an owner of a Heis High Z CNC. I purchased mine from ebay as nearly new second hand, i needed something with a relatively large bed, that had a half decent reputation as i know bugger all about electronics, that wouldnt need messing with to get it up and running. And lets be honest when you decide you want a CNC you want it now, so i was keen to get something and it came up.

I am relatively happy with the machine, it could have turned out a lot worse put it that way, I have had a few minor issues, one with the auto height puck which to be honest when you consider what they charge for it, is pretty poorly made. And also with the jack that the puck plugs into, again pretty shoddily put together once you open it all up and actually take a look.

I cut mainly HDPE and some wood so im not stressing the machine particularly hard, also bear in mind my model has the Hiwin 15 mm rails on the X axis which i imagine helps a lot, i once took the hiwin blocks off just to test the deflection of the round rail on its own and it was significant, especially as it is quite a long X axis on the S-1400, i assume this is why they added the hwin rails on this model as they just wouldnt get away with it on this model, so although it wouldnt be as bad on the S-720 it would still be an issue.

Two big reasons to look elsewhere on this machine for your circumstances in my opinion is speed and unprotected rails, if you are cutting wood the rails are right up there in the way and will be covered in dust all the time i would assume this cant be good for the rails or the beaarings, even with my dustfoot i am forever cleaning crap off the linear and round rails that gets shot out through the cut channels escaping the dustfoot, luckily as its mostly hdpe it probably does no harm, but if it was wood or copper swarf it would be a bigger problem .

Secondly speed, the S models are slow, for engraving which you mention this is a deal breaker as it really could be flying, and instead you will spend a long time staring into space wishing you had a faster machine, i cut HDPE and i could easily push the machine a lot harder and faster and probably improve surface finish, but i am maxed out. The T models are much faster but then much more expensive and a whole new cost v value issue is introduced.

Whether there is something better off the shelf for similar money i am not sure unless you build youir own, i am pretty sure my next machine i will either build myself or have someone build for me.

I am not putting the Heiz machine down as its been pretty good for me, but it has its limitations and weaknesses. Also i paid not much more for the S-1400 really than a brand new S-720 once the VAT is added, and the S1400 has nearly 4 x the cutting area.

Nauris
21-10-2015, 11:20 PM
JAZZCNC, in general I understood all issues you wrote about these machines and I appreciate that honest temper used to describe it all.
Why people buy these mainly because can't find any better on this price level.
But now thanks for given information I can see more clearly what to expect from Heiz.
Right now I'm not in a position to spend time building my own machine, so I will definitely buy a ready to go set.
So the next step is to keep searching for machine with proper frame, supported linear rails and ball screws.
Actually yesterday evening we started to look on Al series from team-haase.de (http://team-haase.de)
These machines seems much better compared to Heiz.

Nauris
21-10-2015, 11:39 PM
howser37, have you ever tried to use dust skirt in fight with wooden or other material dust?
It could manage to keep the small particles to be extracted out before they land on rails.
They also can be found transparent in DIY method.
16339

howser37
22-10-2015, 12:14 AM
Hi Nauris, In my case i made my dustfoot out of transparent acrylic top and transparent PVC/Vinyl skirt, i like to be able to see what is happening at the router bit.

The downside to the PVC Strip skirt is that it does not drop down into the channels that are being cut (whereas a brush skirt might) so it allows the chips to be fired down those channels like a bullet from a gun and escape the dust foot, they then bounce all over the place.

This is probably fairly exclusive to the material i cut which is 90% HDPE so the chips are big and slippery and bouncy so they can really fly off in all directions compared to wood chips.

The plus side of HDPE though is that i doubt it would do any dmage to rails and bearings etc as it is so soft and slick

I did order a piece of Brush Skirt from aliexpress but i found that the bristles where way too stiff for my liking.

JAZZCNC
22-10-2015, 03:15 PM
Actually yesterday evening we started to look on Al series from team-haase.de (http://team-haase.de)
These machines seems much better compared to Heiz.

Yes better but still got problems and still way over priced for what you get, which isn't what it looks.! . . . This looks a like the same German machine once showed on here by a company and there is a thread some where, all be it hacked to death of the negatives.! In which I gave my usual Honest appraisal of the machine and found it lacking in few places, again the linear rail system was big concern and focus.
In the Orginal thread the Company complained so much that spineless Admin deleted much of the negative stuff despite it all being undeniable and plainly there to see but I'll glady repeat my concerns if you like.!!

The Problem you face is that most company's are chasing maximum profit and the linear rail system is a high value component so an area in which they can maximise profit if they use cheaper alternative. It's similair situation with the electronics side.! . . . Doesn't matter to them that both are Key areas of machine because short term it works or appears too. By which time they have your money and your left to deal or work around any short comings the machine has.
Technicly they have done nothing wrong because the machine does work has described. Morally they are shite's because they play on consumers lack knowledge.
To some degree the fact it's overpriced in relation to what you get is the buyers fault for accepting or not researching whats required of good sustainable machine and paying there inflated prices.
Also to some degree Same applies with the fact they are often woefully inadequate at what they are asked to do because not enough research is done on the buyers part.

Sadly I can't offer an alternative at this lower price range.

Lee Roberts
22-10-2015, 04:25 PM
Actually yesterday evening we started to look on Al series from team-haase.de (http://team-haase.de)
These machines seems much better compared to Heiz.

Hi Nauris,

Welcome to the forum, you can find more information about these machines on the forum links below:

JBEC CNC Router System is now available in the UK (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6389-JBEC-CNC-Router-System-is-now-available-in-the-UK)

JBEC router system UNDER THE BONNET (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6419-JBEC-router-system-UNDER-THE-BONNET)

Not that it really matters, i'm not quite sure what "Orginal thread" JazzCNC is referring to, i'm pretty confident that the two discussions linked above, are infact the ONLY discussions to have taken place here on the forum regarding these machines, looking closely they don't appear to have been moderated, although posts have been edited by their original authors there is allot of pictures and information about these machines that should help you in your research.

All the best in finding a suitable machine.

.Me

JAZZCNC
22-10-2015, 07:34 PM
Not that it really matters, i'm not quite sure what "Orginal thread" JazzCNC is referring to, i'm pretty confident that the two discussions linked above, are infact the ONLY discussions to have taken place here on the forum regarding these machines, looking closely they don't appear to have been moderated, although posts have been edited by their original authors there is allot of pictures and information about these machines that should help you in your research.

Erm maybe it would matter if it was your Replys that went missing in the night.!!! . . . . . It's been 2yrs now so I'm fuzzy to everything that was written and went missing but I clearly 100% remember being attacked and accussed by Stoney because in post #7 I happen mentioned I build similair machine to Exel. So he assumed I was in business selling them and trying to discredit their machine to sell my own. When infact the truth was I only built them on request from forum members or very selectively approached those I thought could benefit and deserved help. This is mostly still true today but I do build more now than did before.!

But the point being I did reply and has can be imagined I probably didn't mince my words.!!! . . . . So where is that post because I certainly didn't remove it.? Stoney could Edit his own post but he couldn't remove or touch mine so who did.?
Truth of the matter is that thread today is fraction of what was actually said at the time.!! There were other posts on that thread that went missing or got trimmed to within an inch of there life of being unrecognisable to what I actually wrote.!! . . . . Just like has happened several times before on other threads with machine manufacturers.!!

I say what I say to help people and despite what some may think I don't do it because I get a kickout pulling a machine to pieces or to massage my huge ego.!! . . . My past record should show I don't comment unless I know what I'm saying is correct and can prove or I have experience. Yes in the past some folks have pushed my buttons and I've fired too quick. I still do just not so much.!!
But I think it's morally wrong to turn a blind eye and not point these things out to people who are wide open to buying machines that are wrong or over priced. Just like I think it's morally wrong to Sensor threads just to please the "one" at the potential expense of the "many".!!

Ok rant over said my piece.!:teapot:

Lee Roberts
22-10-2015, 11:12 PM
I'm fuzzy to everything that was written and went missing but I clearly 100% remember being attacked and accussed by Stoney because in post #7 I happen mentioned I build similair machine to Exel. So he assumed I was in business selling them and trying to discredit their machine to sell my own.

But the point being I did reply and has can be imagined I probably didn't mince my words.!!! . . . . So where is that post because I certainly didn't remove it.? Stoney could Edit his own post but he couldn't remove or touch mine so who did.?

Hi JazzCNC,

Like I said above, I've looked into this for you and there doesn't appear to be any moderation that has taken place on those threads, we stopped hard deleting content that needs removing from public viewing many years ago, as such the area we use as storage for such content, doesn't hold anything remotely connected to those discussions.

As I also said above, many of the posts have been edited by their authors, so it's quite possible something that was said to you was removed by the author. This could be why there is no record of moderation taking place on those posts.

With regards to your own posts being removed, if a post has content relevant to the discussion taking place then it gets left, only inappropriate comments get removed and in their place a tag that looks like this is left behind (***REMOVED*** or ***MODERATED***) along with info on what part of the forum guidelines is relevant, however like I said above, posts in that discussion have only been edited by their authors.

As a side note: When a posted is edited, regardless of the person making the edit, a copy of the original content is retained and covers an unlimited number of revisions that may have been made, so it's quite easy to compare post revisions to the original, this can be found by clicking the note added to the bottom of a post when it has been edited, it reads as something like: "Last edited by JAZZCNC; 48 Minutes Ago at 05:35 PM.", however this feature isn't available to everyone.


Truth of the matter is that thread today is fraction of what was actually said at the time.!! There were other posts on that thread that went missing or got trimmed to within an inch of there life of being unrecognisable to what I actually wrote.!! . . . . Just like has happened several times before on other threads with machine manufacturers.!!

Hum the truth of the matter is that reading through both threads, from the start to the end, the discussion flows quite naturally and how you would expect, with replies matching the order and so on of what was said previously, there is also comment made towards one of the machines Jonathan was involved with, highlighted by yourself in post 23, where you say:


Oh Dear oh Dear that's a bit pathetic mate.!! . . . After trying to serve waffle topped with Bull shit you then launch the teddy out the pram just because we didn't coo and Agh over your baby..! . . . Then you try to pick on other peoples baby's to make you look or feel better. . .Lol

So I don't know if that is some of your recollection making its way through the fuzziness your experiencing regarding this.


Just like I think it's morally wrong to Sensor threads just to please the "one" at the potential expense of the "many".!!

I share the same moral actually, as the only "spineless Admin" of that time, I can confirm that I have never had any correspondence with the members involved in those discussions, regarding those discussions...until today.

I guess I could go back through the Moderator Control Panel Logs to see if any of the moderators with delete capabilities, but no "spineless Admin" capabilities deleted posts on those threads...

...NAAAA I've got better things to be doing than proving other peoples worthiness to the "one", let alone my own.

I guess we are WAY off topic now (again), hijacking the thread and showing no etiquette what so ever. :culpability: I apologise for being a hypocrite.

.Me