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uli12us
03-11-2015, 03:10 PM
I hope that is ok, posting in this forum, because I get an obviously nearly unused 165 horizontal mill.
I asked Boxford, but they say, they have nothing about it, no documentation, spare parts or Software.
And I have possibly the only machine that is sold ever.
But I know from a further machine in GB, 6 years ago.
Once upon a time there was a man who have a mass of documentation
of all the machines.
His Nick was BOXFORDCNCMAN (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/members/boxfordcncman.html) with the email www.boxford-retro-cnc.co.uk (http://www.boxford-retro-cnc.co.uk)

But the email is dead.

Does anyone here know, who are the boxfordcncman?
I will try to get a documentation from the school where the machine seems to be installed, some 30 years ago.

Pictures will coming soon.

After a short test everything seems ok, all motors running, unfortunately the B-Axis can only turn unidirectional in 45 increments. But I have a snailgearbox. So if I change the clampingstar for a pneumatic discbrake it should be possible to make continous rotation with any (in the driver given resolution) desired increment.
In a far future I will change these as well against a 5 axis Head with an additional Dividing head.

chris w
21-11-2015, 11:06 AM
hello uli12us,
I too have a boxford HMC which is mechanically excellent but I have started to change the system over to run on mach 3 using cs labs 6 axis motion controller
but I am really stuck as I have no wiring diagram or information, I have tried for months on the net to find info but I don't see any out there, do you have any?
I will post some pics of my electrical cabinet today, I see you have no table on the B axis I could send you the dimensions if you need them.
chris w

JAZZCNC
21-11-2015, 01:26 PM
I have started to change the system over to run on mach 3 using cs labs 6 axis motion controller
but I am really stuck as I have no wiring diagram or information, I have tried for months on the net to find info but I don't see any out there, do you have any?

Boxfords are terrible for Docs, they basicly don't want you messing but ringing them instead.!!

But that said they are nothing special and with a little back tracking of wiring you can workout what's what easy enough. I'm no expert on Boxfords with only limited experience with them but Post some good clear Pics and I'm sure we can get you going easy enough.

chris w
21-11-2015, 06:22 PM
Thanks for response jazzcnc, I am struggling to get the spindle wiring done i don't understand the 3 small relays apart from one of them is for the splash guards and one for the spindle forward then the relay on its own next to the spindle drive is the reversing relay.
the large contractor seems to be for system enable?? As when I power on and press a green button it then makes.
165791658016581

I know it looks untidy but I been pulling the wires out to trace them and then mark them up,
chris w.

uli12us
21-11-2015, 07:19 PM
Chris, I have the table and a double bracket with small Vice for the machine, but first I have dismantled all, to see if the guides are ok, how is all build and so on. I will try to remove the ratchet from the rotating axe and add a small bicycle brake so I can move not only in 45 steps. Maybe later, I will add a 5th axe and can machine parts nearly complete. If I add some
highgrade connectors, then I can change different slides, because the parts are not really heavy.

Unfortunately, I don't have any documents for the machine, I asked Boxford before but they write, the machine is to old and really rare, so they haven't any documents, parts or anything else. I write to the school, from where the machine is, but got no answer til now. What number has your machine, mine is 4209, where I think 420 is the series and 9 is the machine number.

I can explain the 3 small relay under the big Relay (which is actuated, when you press the green button on the right sife of the cabinet and released with e-Stop at the buttontable and the red bar under the machine)

The first is actuated, when the front doors are closed, if the doors are opened, no move, whether axis nor spindle is possible.

the second starts and stops the spindle motor via the lenze driver.

the third, next to the big one, changes the direction of the spindle. 2=CW 2+3=CCW

But I haven't any clue what is the function of the single white relay, (your Pic3 below Lenze driver) I suppose, it's for the tool turret, that is only a geared DC-Motor who turns the tooldisc 1/8 turn and stops, when the switch came to the hole on the underside of the disc.

I've got a wiring diagram for the 190 VMC from another colleage from here, that I can send you, but thats not complete, because this machines have only 3axis instead 4. The only difference is a different Stepper drive ST-Electronic DS-200 integrated package, and only one fast serial Board for connection to the drivers. All others seem the same.

chris w
21-11-2015, 09:06 PM
Uli12us, my machine 4208! Wow,
but I wish I had the nice wiring that is in your pictures, I have managed to see where the feed to the relays comes from I can see that in your pics.
Can you please take me a picture of the RL1 from above so I can see if there is wiring missing from the relay base, if you can send me the 3 axis drawings that would be great, I wonder if I should put a Fuji frenic or similar drive in because that would save the need for some of this wiring especially the spindle reverse!
16582
Can you identify the wire that my screwdriver is pointing to or more important is where it goes to?
i want to fit homing switches on x,y&z and a probe to set tool lengths but I am a long way from that yet, eventually I will be engraving the odd clock face and milling some fancy little clock parts on this baby!
i took the tool turret off the machine for somewhere to put my laptop!!

thanks for your help,
chris w.

uli12us
21-11-2015, 10:37 PM
I have some big trays for the machine to put the computer, Monitor, Keyboard and from 1995
maybe a big box of Diskettes on it, anyway, I want the toolcarousel and hope I can upgrade it to a 2nd disc, eventually if to room is sufficient, I'll try to add a ATC for it. Can it help, if you have the manual for the Lenze driver, I must see, if I have it in english instead german as well.

chris w
21-11-2015, 10:57 PM
I have kept the disc with the tapers and numbers on it so I can identify the tools but my thoughts were if it's not an ATC then it's pointless!
i could use the google interpret web page for translation.
and I can look at the pictures.
thanks.

uli12us
21-11-2015, 11:55 PM
The screwdriver should be the hot wire from mains Plug, the next is the neutral wire, but I don't know, how its made, that the hot wire comes always to the hot wire plug, we in Germany have a mains plug, that can entry in 2 positions, I don't know if in Britain the hot wire must be always in the same position. Long time ago, i have a neighbor from britain, he had a radio or something that won't work, i had just turned the plug and it runs.
the next 2 wires goes to the motor, the last 2 unconnected are for a Motor with solenoid instead a permanent magnet.

With tools, they have all nearly the same length ok, but if you have tools with different lengths, the toolturret is much safer

JAZZCNC
22-11-2015, 10:56 AM
Thanks for response jazzcnc, I am struggling to get the spindle wiring done i don't understand the 3 small relays apart from one of them is for the splash guards and one for the spindle forward then the relay on its own next to the spindle drive is the reversing relay.
the large contractor seems to be for system enable?? As when I power on and press a green button it then makes.

The White Relay next to Speed controller is a Push Pull relay or Latching Relay. It has two coils A & B which latch it in either position so when power is removed the contacts stay latched in that position, in your case FOR or REV.
If you lift the clear flap on the top you'll see a little red switch this allows you to change one set of contacts from NO or NC. IE: A coil controls NO and B-NC and vise versa.
The smaller relay is used to switch these coils depending on Direction and is what you would control with M3/M4 using the Outputs from CSlabs.

Word of warning regards Cslabs Analog speed Output. Check out if the Lenze speed Ref input is isolated because if not then it will damage the Cslabs controller.
If not then you need an isolation circuit or provide a Speed Ref voltage from an Isolated source. Despite the Cslabs manual reading and actually saying it's Outputs are Isolated I know 100% the Analog Speed Ref Output isn't and if the Lenze is at Mains potential then it will fry the Cslabs unit.

uli12us
22-11-2015, 11:42 AM
For this purpose they have the, so called isolation card that is mounted on the side of the lenze controller heatsink. The 3wires left goes to lenze, the other to mains and 0-10V from CSMIO.
If the motor should run in rev than you must wait, until complete standstill and maybe half a second, before you can switch the direction. Eventually you can add a second photo sensor and wait until no signal changes occur. Lenze wants a zinkoxid varistor, don't ask what that is.

How do you have transformed the 5V from CSlab Controller to the 12V that the stepperdrivers want, I'll try to use the ULN2803 like in the 2 additonal stepper boards. But I don't know from the datasheet if they make a H or L output wih a H-input.

chris w
22-11-2015, 05:34 PM
Yes the tool length differences are a concern but my vertical denford doesn't have an ATC so I have a rack with numbers on it and the program has text in to tell me the tool number and descripition,
but that is why I want a tool setting probe on this machine I am hoping to be able to check/ set the tool length.

the difference in voltage between the CSI lab and the stepper I don't know about because I had a chap helping me when I first got the machine a year ago, and he advised that the CSI labs equipment was the way to go as you can keep all the original motors and drives but after we fit the CS labs unit I think his personal circumstances changed as I cannot contact him now.
he also owns one of these machines and told me there was only 16 made.
i will take you some pics of the wiring, I cut the wires and connected them into where he told me, the machines axes were smooth and quiet at 5000 mm/min Rapids we then set out to rewire the spindle as when we powered the machine up the spindle was always running at about 100rpm with no command, and even when we command m5 still it run,
but since then I have no contact with the chap so the reason that I so stuck.
cheers for the manual,
chris w.

uli12us
22-11-2015, 06:22 PM
Always 100 rpm is a bit slow. If you haven't a problem to switch the motor manually on and off, maybe with the front switches, than you can connect the 2 wires directly to the relais, like original. Than you add a 10K rheostat to change the speed from a 10V connector to a outer contact. The slider goes to the +10V connector of the iso-Board. If I come to the machine the next days, I'll make some pics how the switches are connected in original. The CSMIO Board have 2 analog outputs, you need only one for the speed regulation of the motor.
If 16 machines are produced, then they are not so seldom, as I thought, but how much exists today?

chris w
22-11-2015, 10:28 PM
1659216593
Ok from the existing wiring on the drives you can see where they have been connected to the CS labs and you can also see the "extra" wire I have soldered onto the connector,
that hot wire you mentioned earlier goes to the large contactor (enable activated) which has a 240v wire to one of the contacts, so I am now in a position that I have no reverse (m4) but I have control of m3 but the spindle still runs slowly at power on I have got hold of the collet chuck in the spindle and it's not driven with any power,
have you got homing switches on your machine?
i have moved axes to their extremes tonight and marked it with a permanent marker to measure stroke lengths and see where is best to locate the switches, I found the CS labs mpg unit to be very notchy in movement I need to figure out how to smooth that out, but all in all much more positive about the machine now, thanks for your input guys.
chris w.

chris w
22-11-2015, 11:37 PM
For this purpose they have the, so called isolation card that is mounted on the side of the lenze controller heatsink. The 3wires left goes to lenze, the other to mains and 0-10V from CSMIO.

on the isolation card there Is a variable resistor do you know what this does,
ie, could It stop my spindle running at power on?
chris w.

uli12us
23-11-2015, 12:22 PM
I think the resistor is only to adjust the highest possible speed of the spindle.

I would try to connect a rheostat (or potentiometer, if thats a common word in english)
to connect between the 10V and 0-10V clamps of the iso-card. Then the spindle speed must
change with the position of the slider. If this works, then you canconnect the 0-10V output from the controller board to the Iso-card. After that you must connect the Rel2 to the hot-wire of the lenze drive and connect Rel3 as a commutator between drive and motor.
Attention, you must wait until the motor standstill and half a second or so, before you can switch the direction.

In my machine I don't have any home or end switches, but I need to assamble some, it where better I can add some linear encoders, but that will last some time.

chris w
23-11-2015, 10:06 PM
you are losing me with the modifications I cannot act that quickly (wife, 3kids and a dog all need a bit of my time) but I understand it, thank you, don't stop with the information!!
more questions,
on the large contactor to the right of rl 2/3/4 there is a red wire going in the auxiliary contact mounted on the top and an earth coming out can you see where that red is coming from, also the orange wire going in and coming out of the far right terminal, the reason for this is I need the estop and enable circuit to be right before anything else.

I don't know how many machines exist today, I contacted boxford and I am waiting for a reply I will let you know.
you are very helpful and thanks for the info,
Chris w.

uli12us
23-11-2015, 11:30 PM
Boxford write to me, that maybe I have the only machine ever made, so don't hope to get any usable info from them. But I think from the numbers, they have made at least 10 or someone have said 16 machines.

I hope, I come to the machine in the next days, then I'll try to draw a little of the wiring diagram at least for the parts, that are not exist in the 190VMC. Maybe the diagram for the 230 would be better, because this machine have a tool carousel like ours.
uli

chris w
26-11-2015, 10:04 PM
Hi, should I be seeing a voltage displayed on the Mach 3 screen when the spindle is running, it does display the commanded speed but no voltage.
there is a sensor mounted on the rear of the spindle looking at a disc with holes in it I followed back the wires from that sensor and they go into a terminal rail but nothing comes out, is that sensor only for spindle synchronisation like ridgid tapping??
if there is no voltage feedback could this be the reason that the spindle is creeping when I power up?
chris.

uli12us
26-11-2015, 10:23 PM
As I know the slotted disc is for feedback to the lenze drive via the controller board (the large board with many connectors) I don't think that rigid tapping is possible with this machines, and you don't have as much torque as you need for tapping. The motor has with the small toothed belt gear a maximum of 2Nm. That is enough only for M6 in Alu or M4 in Steel.

I hope I come in the next days to the machine, then I make some pictures and a little drawing of the
part with the motordriver. Why don't you use a Multimeter to see if the voltage is changing from your controller board. If yes, then something in the harness from controller to driver is not ok.

chris w
26-11-2015, 10:49 PM
If I fit a potentiometer between the 10v and -10v and it works am I not just covering up some problem that needs fixing by another method I mean if the slider was meant to be there would they not have fit it at the factory?

JAZZCNC
27-11-2015, 12:42 AM
Hi, should I be seeing a voltage displayed on the Mach 3 screen when the spindle is running, it does display the commanded speed but no voltage.
there is a sensor mounted on the rear of the spindle looking at a disc with holes in it I followed back the wires from that sensor and they go into a terminal rail but nothing comes out, is that sensor only for spindle synchronisation like ridgid tapping??
if there is no voltage feedback could this be the reason that the spindle is creeping when I power up?
chris.

No you won't see a voltage on the screen but you will see Analog voltage on the Cslabs Plugin control if you want to see the voltage.

Regards the creeping have you set the spindle control up correctly regards Pulleys etc.? You may be getting a Voltage on the pin if not.!
Could be stray noise but I doubt it.

Thou to be honest the Spindle shouldn't be spinning because the Lenze shouldn't run until it gets a signal for the Run command no matter is Ref voltage is being applied or not. The REf voltage should just say run at this speed when you do turn on.!
Are you sure you have it wired correctly.? Does the Lenze have an enable or Run input.?

uli12us
27-11-2015, 11:54 AM
He said, the wiring is made from a friend, but he hadn't wired the spindle drive correct.
This part should be the easiest of all, but without experience, he shouldn't make anything.
I'll try to make a correct drawing this weekend, maybe then he can wiring it by herself.

chris w
28-11-2015, 09:22 PM
Ok the spindle creep was sorted with the nMIN pot on the lenze and I adjusted the nMAX pot to match the commanded speed to the actual spindle speed, as I understand it my man set the ratio within Mach,
the CS analogue I/o number 1 is connected to terminal number 4 on the isolation card so I am controlling the spindle through Mach but not through the forward and reversing relays.
uli I see the wiring on your machine terminal number 4 on isolation card is a white wire where does that go to?

i spoke to someone at boxford it's been too long ago for them to support this machine any longer as they have moved offices and cleared out any info they had on this model.
on the plus side of this the more I look at it and liable things up its starting to make more sense, but I just don't understand relays!
chris.

uli12us
28-11-2015, 10:03 PM
Thats ridiculous, they don't want, the machine is more or less indentical with the 230VMC. But, if you spoke to a boxford man, can you ask him, if the spindle is identical to the one from the 190 and 300 machine. If I know, I can buy a working spindle, then I can modify the existing spindle for BT30 with toolchanger without the trouble, the modification, don't work. From the motorside its no difference to the 190 (as long as I seen til now) Except the toolcarousel, which is a simple DC-Motor with a beltdrive. which can only run unidirectional til the next position of the stopswitch.If you want to control the spindle speed via the frontswitches, you must connect it to the input clamps of your control unit. IIRC they have 20 ports, which you can use. Its the same with the feedspeedknob, no function without connection.

chris w
28-11-2015, 10:31 PM
No all the front switches are not connected the only working switch is the estop but that only knocks off the enable contactor but now I need to include the CS labs into the estop circuit BUT the estop on the machine is 240v which I think would not be ok for the CS labs estop terminals!
i still need to work that one out,
I think 100% control through Mach is ok it offers everything that the machine control panel has to offer but I have a MPG unit plugged into the CS labs which I think is vital to set the machine properly.
when you stated the ridgid tapping is not a really useful option why do we need a reverse on the machine????
is the "direct connection" between CS labs to isolation board going to be a problem because of load on the CS unit??
soooo many questions,

JAZZCNC
29-11-2015, 12:41 AM
No all the front switches are not connected the only working switch is the estop but that only knocks off the enable contactor but now I need to include the CS labs into the estop circuit BUT the estop on the machine is 240v which I think would not be ok for the CS labs estop terminals!
i still need to work that one out,

Chris does the Contactor have a NO Aux Contact.? or a Spare contact you can use.? If so then it's simple case of running 0v wire from 24V supply thru this Contact and back to Input (-) on IP-S. Then take (+) from 24V supply to the Input (+).
Now when E-stop occurs and Contactor drops it informs the Controller of the E-stop. It's that simple.!



is the "direct connection" between CS labs to isolation board going to be a problem because of load on the CS unit??
soooo many questions,

If your talking about the 0-10v Ref signal then provided the Lenze is Isolated from Mains Voltage then you won't have any problems.


You say you don't under stand Relays so let me explain they are very simple really. Relay is basicly just switch or number of switches that are turned on/off by electricity.
There is a electromagnetic coil which is connected to the switch or switches, buts lets call them by there proper name Contacts.
Each Contact can be in one of two states when NO power is applied. NO or NC meaning Normally Open or Normally Closed.
When power is applied to the relay Coil each switch Flips state. So NO contact becomes CLOSED and NC becomes OPEN.

The # of contacts on relay are often refered to has POLES when buying so for instance 4PDT or 2PST. 4PDT translates to 4 x sets of contacts that each have 2 states OPEN or CLOSED. DT standing for Double throw.
This means for each contact there are 3 connections. COM, NC & NO. An example of how you would use this type of relay is say for when in E-stop condition you wanted to inform the Control about E-stop and at same time turn on an Alarm light.

So you would run say 24V to the COM connection. Then run a wire from the NO connection to the Controller E-stop (+) INPUT. Take another wire From the NC connection to the (+) side of the Alarm Light.
Now run Power thru your E-stop Button/s to the Relay COILS. This power could be the Same 24V running thru Contacts or any other voltage that matches the COILS rating. ie 5V or 240V

So now When E-stop is Safe ie Not pushed and power is running thru the E-stop circuit the relay turns on. This Flips the Switch states NO becomes Closed and lets power flow to the Controller INPUT informing E-stop is safe. At the same time the NC flips states and Removes power from the Alarm light which turns off.
Hit the E-stop button and contacts flip state. Alarm light see power and lights up and controller see's the INPUT change so E-stops the system.

Now obviously you could have more contacts and have it do all sorts of things like turn Kettle on because the Job is Stuffed and you need a Brew to Chill. . Lol

Relays also come in ST flavors meaning Single Throw. So each Contact only has 2 terminals COM and one State NC or NO.

Hopefully you get the picture and it's clear.

Oh and Contactor is just a Relay with Contacts that handle Higher power.



It's that simple really and in practise you decide which Contact State to use and number needed to do the Job.

chris w
30-11-2015, 10:04 PM
ok thanks for keeping it simple jazz the estop is now operational from ground through spare contact to 0v on both the IP-S and the MPG module I then went a step further and put the ground (feed to the contactor) into estop1 on the MPG module and put ESTOP2 to ground as the MPG module ESTOP button opens the circuit then mach 3 knows about it,
but no because as soon as I push the enable the spindle motor spins, so I put the feed to contactor ground not through the MPG module and it works fine yet in the cs labs instructions it shows the ESTOP1 and ESTOP2 are just a switch, am I being simple and missing something?
the MPG is not smooth at all, is that for another thread??
chris.

JAZZCNC
01-12-2015, 12:35 AM
I then went a step further and put the ground (feed to the contactor) into estop1 on the MPG module and put ESTOP2 to ground as the MPG module ESTOP button opens the circuit then mach 3 knows about it,
but no because as soon as I push the enable the spindle motor spins, so I put the feed to contactor ground not through the MPG module and it works fine yet in the cs labs instructions it shows the ESTOP1 and ESTOP2 are just a switch, am I being simple and missing something?
the MPG is not smooth at all, is that for another thread??
chris.

No not being simple it is just a switch. Think of it like a relay E1 & E2 are just a contact which are controlled by pins 13 & 25 which are like the coil. In reality it will be a transistor or something like that but principle is the same.

So E1 & E2 just go in series with your main E-stop that drops the Contactors. The control will know then because the Input you run thru the Contactor spare terminal will signal this.
Provided your Main E-stop Circuit is a Latching one then Pushing Enable should have No affect if E-stop is pressed. It shouldn't even spin when Enable is pushed if Mach isn't reset and then when it is still shouldn't spin untill given a M3 command or spindle spin button pressed. So Sounds to me like you still have something wrong on the spindle side.

Or If when you push E-stop then release it your system becomes live again then your not safe. You should have a Reset button that will only allow a Restart when things are correct.

Can't help with the Rough MPG I'm afraid. Are you using a pendent bought with MPG or is it one you made up.? Could be dodgy wiring so encoder signals are wrong or faulty Rotery MPG.?

chris w
02-12-2015, 11:58 PM
hello thanks for the information guys the estop on the machine and the mpg unit (CS labs mpg so should be a reliable plugin) are properly functional with the enable push button doing what it should and the spindle behaving itself,
we have progressed quite quickly to say I was completely lost!!
would it be deemed unprofessional to wire the spindle forward relay only and strip out the reverse wiring?
dont get me wrong I would like full functionality out of the machine but for the amount of time it will take me to work out how to wire the reverse without damaging the CS labs unit versus the amount of times I will use m4
is quite an easy desicion but if it really isn't that difficult I do enjoy learning.
uli did you manage to do that spindle wiring sketch at weekend?
jazz where does the latching relay come into play with the spindle wiring as the examples I have seen on how to reverse a motor on the net can be done with 2 relays with the motor wires opposed?
i notice quite a lot of differences between my machine and Ulis machine to say they are only 1 digit apart on the serial number, maybe my machine has had some not so great work done to it in its lifetime......dunno
if you men are getting tired of this then I am sorry cos I don't want this to be a lifetime project I just wanna make stuff and develop while reading other people's questions rather than being the one asking,
any info is all good info,
thanks guys,
chris.

JAZZCNC
03-12-2015, 01:07 AM
would it be deemed unprofessional to wire the spindle forward relay only and strip out the reverse wiring?
dont get me wrong I would like full functionality out of the machine but for the amount of time it will take me to work out how to wire the reverse without damaging the CS labs unit versus the amount of times I will use m4
is quite an easy desicion but if it really isn't that difficult I do enjoy learning.

No it's not unprofessional and we are DIY so what's it matter.! But that said it's not difficult to do anyway so really no reason why not to have it.
The main thing is that the Spindle comes to a Complete stop before the Reverse Command executes. Mach3 provides a way for this using CW & CCW Spindle Delay before turning on the relavant output. It's just a case doing a bit of experimenting with timings to how long it takes for spindle to come to complete stop. . . .See pic:

16682


jazz where does the latching relay come into play with the spindle wiring as the examples I have seen on how to reverse a motor on the net can be done with 2 relays with the motor wires opposed?

The Latching Circuit I refered to was the E-stop circuit which has nothing to do with the Spindle Reversing. Only affect on Spindle would be to Turn it off in E-stop condition. The controller would be informed of the E-stop so should Stop spindle starting back up automaticly after E-stop and machine is reset. Not until Spindle Start button or M3/4 command is given should the spindle start up again.


if you men are getting tired of this then I am sorry cos I don't want this to be a lifetime project I just wanna make stuff and develop while reading other people's questions rather than being the one asking,

Ask away Chris I for one don't get tired of answering if can help. The harder or more difficult the question the better really because it makes me think deeper.
Often the Hard part with helping is not the actual problem but working out what someone with less experience is trying to get across. Many times I read some question and start computing solutions only to realise that they are actually meaning a completely different thing to what came across in the question.

chris w
06-12-2015, 11:07 PM
Hi guys, I am considering stripping the whole cabinet and fitting new motors and drives and spindle vfd and motor I don't want to be spannering this thing for the rest of my days I wanna make stuff and the amount of time that this machine has absorbed in the last 12 moths is a worry cos it's not finished yet and I face the fact that I am out of my comfort zone with the experimenting of moving wires around and waiting for magic smoke,
i see that zapp are agents for CS labs gear and they are mentioned lots of times in a positive manner, would there be an ideal match to suit the bit that I will keep which is the ip-s.....closed loop, servo or stepper????
if I going to do it it might as well be right, as for the A axis I would really like to make this a full 4th rather than 45 degree would I need to change the mechanics of the drive to minimise backlash......uli you said you wanted to fit a disc brake to the underside of the table, I presume just to keep some "load" on it to reduce backlash?
as always any advice is good,
thanks,
chris.

JAZZCNC
06-12-2015, 11:59 PM
Chris I'll help you with this Don't go throwing good money away until your sure it's needed. I'll send you my number if you ring me I'm sure we can get you going easy enough. It's always difficult via forum alone but I've got many people working using the phone and Email. Give me a ring.

uli12us
07-12-2015, 11:58 AM
MY machine is working, without the control issue. So I don't see the necessarity of removing everything of it.
If you like a better resolution, you can eventually change the Stepperdrivers for newer products.
The problem with the old parts is, nobody knows, who have produced it. The mousepiano on it promised, that you can choose from various microsteppings. But without a users manual, which switch is for what?
The Steppermotors are actual models, they are sold until today, let it be, if they work.
I hope, I can make all the work with the machine today, then I can give you the wiring for the
Relays.

I'm a bit further now, but haven't completed the wiring. The small relay RL4 goes only to the RL1, which changes the direction of the mill spindle. Tomorrow I look at the wiring of the Iso-board, and then it should be all complete for programming the spindle with the CSmio Board.

The terminal block beside the RL2 is in this direction +5V, +12V, +24V and +70V which goes only to the stepper drivers. 12V to stepper drivers as well.

But I miss a lot of fuses in the machine. I think each Stepperdrive should have an extra fuse,
as well as the spindle motor, thats I think is integrated in the Lenze drive.

chris w
20-12-2015, 10:59 PM
Hello men, I have been busy altering the spindle and the y axis casting!!!!
i know the machine isn't original but it will be fit for purpose for me it's a 18,000 rpm teknomotor with an er 25 collet, running on a vfd, I want to be able to take advantage of speeds and feeds for brass parts and leaving the machine electrics "stuck" in the 1990s without proper diagrams for trouble shooting is a problem for me.
jazz thanks for the pm I am thankful for the offer of help,
i am stripping the system out and starting again, fitting limit/ homing switches touch probe for tool length setting,
uli what is the prox switch for on the a axis?? The switch is present but nothing connected to it on the other side of the terminal block,

i have lost about 25mm in z axis but it's ok to work in centre of table with a chuck and I will make an off centre tombstone for any bigger jobs.
here is a pic from the new motor fitted,
16873
I will put the odd picture on of the alteration, some proper "you've done it now" and "oh shit no going back now" moments, and until it's up and running there will always be an element of "have I done the right thing"
but it's done now and I am suited with the result so far,
16874
I did this part on a vertical at work at night,

chris w
21-12-2015, 09:18 PM
I am ready to strip out old bits can anyone tell me if I should wire the new vfd through the choke that the existing spindle is wired through or is that just to smooth out the feed for the DC motor?
chris.

JAZZCNC
21-12-2015, 10:31 PM
I think that's a DC choke which works slightly different to AC Line Filter. Does a similair Job but I don't think it's filters out everything like AC filter does.

Personaly I wouldn't use it. If the Inverter gives you any noise troubles then just buy AC line filter. Thou if your grounding in control box is ok you shouldn't have any troubles from the Inverter.

chris w
21-12-2015, 11:07 PM
Thanks for reply jazz, there is a line filter fitted which is between isolator and psu so I thought I would leave it original upto and including the filter then fit new psu from there, I am also going to leave the estop circuit and the enable contactor, so really the only changes are the stepper drives and vfd, then the addition of home and limit switches oh and the probe and see if I can do something with the switch on the a axis, I think it's a in position switch just to confirm that a axis has finished before z moves but it's not wired to anything on the other side of the terminal block but there is no mechanical difference on the index ring for the switch to be a home switch, if it's not wired then there must be a presumption taking place or a dwell in the original operating system to allow for the a to move before x or z sets off to machine the part.
I will be interested in what uli does in the future to the a axis as I would like it to be a full 4th for flexibility but I bother that I am thinking too far,
but I read about the new member wanting a bigger 3 d machine and that shows people will always find a way to drive forward even if the odds are against, brilliant I love it!
chris.

uli12us
22-12-2015, 01:09 AM
As far as I know the DC-Choke sits between the motor controller and the motor.
In contrary the AC Choke or better filter sits between mains and controller.

Because of the A- better B-Axis because its parallel to the Y. I will remove the ratchet and change it to a simple round block. then I'll add a hydraulik brake, so I can clamp the Position, when i machine a part. Eventually I can add an angle measurement system, so I can see on a Display in which orientation the axe is.

But that will last a while, first the machine must run in the actual configuration, before I want chang anything.

In a further future I want to change the X-B slider to another who moves the part in
X-A. Or If I can get a massive block of iron I plan eventually an further complete
X-B-A block, so I can machine 5Axe parts on the machine.
For this I must make a ATC Spindle and the TC maybe with a roboter, eventually with a double decker tool turret. I think 8 tools is a bit little for machining a part within an hour or so. 16 seems much better.

chris w
23-12-2015, 10:08 PM
That seems like a lot of work uli what parts are you wanting to make on the machine or is it you like to develop it to have maximum capability for any job that comes along.
i stripped out the older system tonight and was astounded by the amount of wires that came out of the ferrules with no effort, makes me think some of the problems could have been bad or unreliable connections!! Better not tell the wife eh!!
thanks for the help up to now guys I am sure there is some questions coming your way quite soon,
uli/ jazz when I get to the end of this project would you be interested in the old system parts, drives, spindle motor and drive relays........
Chris.

uli12us
23-12-2015, 10:44 PM
First I want to make snails for transporting of plastikbottles on the Machine. All other can wait until this job runs good.

At the moment I must first to get Linuxcnc running with the mesa7i76E ethernet BOB or better motion controller.
And change the integrated working but softwareless controller
to the mesa.

After that, I want to make the mechanical parts for the X-A
Bridge. Thats relatively easy, because I "only" need a part
like the X-slider, 2 blocks for adaptation from my
Guidance to the tailstocks with a toothed belt drive
and a ballscrew on the side.

All the other parts are not so important and I can make it whenever I like it.

chris w
17-01-2016, 10:37 PM
Hello I have got the movements smooth and the correct programmed amount in each axis so now I want to understand how I can program the a axis (rotary) it has a ratchet wheel under the table and it locks every 45 degs but to lock it it needs to move a couple of degrees in the opposite direction.
so if I program A180. The move is good but it doesn't lock so I move -A180. Then A2. And it locks but the DRO on Mach displays A178. Which is no good as it affects the next move, how do I get round this please?
chris w.

uli12us
18-01-2016, 06:10 PM
Thats the problem with steppers, they have no feedback for direct reading of the position. Eventually you can enter a little false value into the parametres, so you turn maybe 180 with an amount of 185 and 5 back.
In reality it moves only 184 and back to 180 until the motor stalls.

chris w
18-01-2016, 10:52 PM
Do you mean alter the movement amount on the axis in motor tuning to trick it?
to let you know how I start up, I move the axis to lock it in the nearest square face of the table in relation to the spindle then reverse it a bit so it's locked then zero the DRO, so now I mdi g0g90a-91. Then table move and next line is a-90. Which leaves readout in right position but not quite locked the table so I need to move to a-89. And it locks and ok but the readout displays 89.62 or another number which makes a program impossible as I don't know how much the next move needs to compensate for the clamp amount,
should I consider changing the axis motor for a servo but it still needs to clamp before machining and I don't want to be involved with a compressor for a brake........ I dunno,

uli12us
19-01-2016, 12:14 AM
Yes, you enter a little bit less then in reality, move so much that you are free, after that you turn back to the nominal amount. So you have always pressure against the ratchet. I don't know if 1degree more is enough, you should test some different parametres, until it runs correct.

Or you can make a new roundaxe without a ratchet and add a small hydraulik diskbrake from a Bicycle. So you can move in every desired angle.
But because of backlash unfortunately only in one direction

Neale
19-01-2016, 08:54 AM
Can you fake it by resetting the A machine coordinate to the correct value after each move? Not exactly an elegant solution...

chris w
24-01-2016, 04:09 PM
Hello Neale I think that is my answer or solution for the short to medium term as I tried all the positions on the ratchet locking and it varies about .3 degrees so that stops me from allowing for a fixed error,
is there a way to reset that coordinate within the g code program?
i.e.
G0G90A-90.
(reset DRO)
machining
A-90.
(reset DRO)
machining

that will essentially be indexing incrementally but as long as I remember that it will be fine,
chris w.

Neale
24-01-2016, 08:05 PM
Chris, please bear in mind that I have not tried this, but I believe that the sequence you need is, basically:

G91 (set relative mode)
G0 A95 (turn axis but deliberately overshoot)
G0 A-10 (turn back to lock position)
G90 (switch back to absolute)
G92 Axx (where xx is the value you want to appear in the DRO display at this point)

Alternatively, if you are resetting the DRO to the correct position each time, you can probably skip the switching relative/absolute bit. Turn to the required angle plus a bit of overshoot, turn back by enough to make sure that the axis is back on its ratchet stop, then use G92 Axx to reset the DRO to the correct value. Absolute moves should then work OK. Good luck if you want to build this into your post-processor!

chris w
24-01-2016, 08:21 PM
Yes thanks for that it's been a long time since I used a G92 but I understand it,
chris,